#25: Bobby and Jared go beyond design in the series finale

hey welcome to high resolution my name is Bobby Jo Jo and I'm J dorando every week for the last 24 weeks we've been sitting down with 24 masters of the design industry well we had a 25th but unfortunately due to unforeseen circumstances we had a complication I flew out to SF it didn't work out but we got something just as good we're glad to do in this episode we are asking each other questions you can add new yeah so my master is like a 1 Matthew that that's actually a good one I like that I like that but it's going to be great content we're going to ask ourselves some questions around what we learn in this series and um just a little bit more about us because I don't think you actually know too much much yeah your name Hey this episode is going to be a lot of fun you know Jared and I have never done this kind of interview before I'm actually but I learned a lot about him in this interview we had a lot of personal questions that we wanted to understand about each other so we hope you like it it's the grand finale you guys just stuck around for 24 weeks my goodness who does that get away after this episode get a life actually absolute episode we have a bonus episode so I didn't get a life and then get a life after that well we're going to leave enjoy the show thanks to Squarespace for their support whether you need a domain a website or an online store make your next move at Squarespace visit squarespace.com and enter the code high-resolution one-word to 10% off your first purchase [Music] mr. Jared Oh Andy hello we've sailed across the Sun which sailed past the seven seas together we climb the mountain me out we kept the sinkable ship from not sinking yep we've we've glided on the backs of dragons and here we are at the destination I don't get the dragons on Game of Thrones man it's on my mind glide it on the UH okay that's fair I've been drinking let's go it okay going I'm here I'm going and here we are here we are at our destination last episode we have 10 questions for each other yes 10 each let's get into it question number one mr. Jared or and ooh-hoo I've had the great pleasure of working with for the last eight months which guest has had the most fundamental impact on your understanding of design whoo I feel like if you asked me this question every single day my answer might change just a little bit but as of this moment okay in time it's Tom Kelley okay I don't even know what episode number he was he was but doesn't matter you should watch the episode 16 he was in the team for sure I'm a huge fan of I do yes I remember I think everyone has the story of like seeing some specials that they had on TV years ago or they talked about the shopping cart I think we actually saw an old clip from that and notice that Andrea Mallard another one of our guests I was in that like remember review which is just mind-blowing but anyway something has Tom enlightened for me and it's something I had been told and taught by some mentors of mine yeah but it was very it was very crystallized in that episode was how one can approach their process and you know the analogy I have been giving people to try and crystallize it for them is that a Batman and his utility belt okay um so when you think about his utility belt there are probably I don't even know like 10 to 20 things on on that thing yeah but they each have a very specific purpose and that man knows what the purpose is so when he's in a situation of combat or you know SP not is it not as mean as is that like spying spying people whatever whatever whatever Batman whatever Batman's done dual evil yeah keeping whatever Batman does he knows what thing on his belt is best applied to that situation yes and that is how I think about process now okay so the thing with process is you know when you're when you're when you're when you're talking about it an abstract level it always does begin with defining the problem that you're trying to solve there's the actual execution and craft piece and then there's a you know the the collection of data measuring your results and then using that to inform and go back in a cycle but when you are in any specific phase of design there are a whole bunch of things you can do I however I feel that there are many people who think that within each phase the things are done in a linear sequence where it's like okay I must approach every single problem with a wireframe first yeah and then do this and then do that and then do that and a design review and then go back so whatever and then do this it's not laying it's not linear right right so this is where the Batman belt comes in right every time Batman gets into a fight he's not like all right hold up one sec like I'll be like pull the first thing for my belt do that but that I do this a right he's like all right and I know I am in fight mode right now there are six things on my belt best applies to fight situation which one is this let me grab that thing and then you really love this one right dude by the way it's great when you're designing you may you know when you there are different challenges you may come across maybe you realize that you don't fully understand the problem or the user you're trying to solve for so you're like okay the big issue I have right now is lack of information no I need to be informed you can be informed a number of ways you can tap the designer next to you who probably has more context on that thing because they just let that project last week and you get the answer from them or you may need to call for a user research study you may need to bring people in you may need to hop on a call you may need to ask your p.m. right many different things but it's not a linear process it's not okay first I need to like come over and like do this right yeah right and you hear those a lot like that we love we love terminologies we love like real acronyms we yeah right yeah exactly and it's not the case and Tom had a much to delivery on they're definitely watching episode the Train Parker would be like he's just sitting down like this anything well you know like I loved it right and it's just very liberating because what it tells you said like okay you know I can have my own flair I can have my own approach to this thing right my utility belt doesn't have to be black it doesn't even have to be around my waist it could be around my shoulder right but once I know the things that are on there and I built the confidence of knowing what thing is best applied to what problem your freedom is love it I love it all right your question to me sir first question of Bobby so Bobby number one yes what was an answer that was given yeah during this series that you initially disagreed with yeah but later changed your mind off you know we had an average of around 20 questions per guest 25 guests that put us pretty darn close to 500 answers that's great that has been going on this I think I'm doing the math right I've been drinking that okay I wouldn't get back that changed my mind on listen I hold strong convictions loosely but I don't know that I've necessarily changed my mind on anything here's the you're asking about things that I disagreed with that I now agree with right well I have a couple things that I've disagreed with it's unfortunate that cap and Judy are so close to the end because I remember their episode more than others and I can find things I disagree with maybe with most people that we've interviewed but I'm going to go to captain Judy because those we have two that come to mind right now so Judy I love Judy but you duty said something in her episode where she talks about what the right time to leave a company is and she said the advice she gave someone which is still amazing advice because it was new to me I'd never heard that before but after thinking about it I just disagreed with it which was a never leave I'm paraphrasing but never leave when things are bad waiting until things are good and leave if it still makes sense in a soundbite I totally get why that's like an amazing answer and I actually think it probably applies to most people there's a problem with that answer the problem with that framing anyway is that you're encumbering the person just to live through something that isn't good and my like I'm Way more confrontational about things I don't like not necessarily like in-your-face I'm going to be pissed off and like I'm going to be you know aggressive I'm more confrontational with myself about things I don't like I ask myself why am I here this makes no sense to me right now I have options and there are people that don't have options that need to look through things so I know that I am privileged in this but if you are privileged you might as well use that privilege to get yourself out of a misery yeah a situation as a miserable situation right and and I don't believe that people should wait until things are good if things are bad you confront it and you try and make the most sense out of it and you talk to people out of talk to people about it and you make sure that you're not reading into something incorrectly but if you're not reading into things correct incorrectly leave leave if things are good don't leave it's hard for things to be good yeah like it's really hard to find a job that you love you see what I'm saying yeah so Judy I just I disagree with that I just do disagree with and I still disagree that hopefully when I'm mature and I'm wise just like you are I might change my mind but right now I'm in the Bobby time is short you're 32 you're about to hit your prime you've got to go for it you got to find something that makes sense right okay and then the thing I'm caps answer which was funny because he said this right as IBM's logo came on stuff but cap said he'd really didn't like this framing of design thinking it completely disagreed with it he thinks a designer stole that terminology from people who basically do this every single day I completely disagree with this a couple of things here kept first I think people liked first I disagree the fact that people go through the design thinking process yes people solve problems every single day but a lot of times they brute force it or they kind of make up answers I don't think people are cognizant and intentional about how they find the answer to the problem and design gives you that lexicon it gives you it gives you the framework on the vocabulary I need to start by empathizing then I need to move to defining what it is I think I just saw with the empathy right then I start building things some people just jump to building things before understanding what the problem is most people do that then I test and then I iterate on the whole thing so there's a framework here that is tried and tested that makes a lot of sense okay now we might have taken aspects of this from people that do this every single day that weren't designers but the fact is Design Thinking is a great brand it is an important framing it gives people shorthand to understand how design works and people that are trained in design thinking when you give them a problem they just they go after that problem in a very different way this I've seen this firsthand and I've seen people that I do now friends and I do that that use this process I've hired people that don't use this process and they just solve problems very differently so I disagree that design thinking is stolen that everyone does Design Thinking by solving problems completely disagree with it I disagree that it's that it's a bad brand well I don't want to put words in his mouth I don't think he has a bad brand but he disagree with the whole idea that we should call it give it a name then giving it a name empowers people to understand it and that's an important part of being inclusive is that you're giving people that shorthand to understand something you understand is better than them so those are two things I still disagree with and I still haven't come around and changed my mind on ok ok all right mr. Rondeau second question you sir oh I've seen these questions in not English what's wrong flying a different answer here's what I wrote that flying at different altitudes being a solo designer that's all I've got ok here's what I'm trying to get at with that question ok yeah you you've gone from building a team a teespring as their head of design at their prime right to freelancing to now going to head of design that lattice where you're the only designer your and this is an a two and a half year time frame like three year time frame very short when you think about careers three years is a very short amount of time and you've gone from this high level to now dislike you're flying so close to the ground and you're doing the work how are you managing this and what are some of the complexities and difficulties that that you're facing now that you're trying to get over sure so context switching context ridging yes that's so hard you definitely agree I think a big part of it is being comfortable with ambiguity yes which is something I was not comfortable with when I started off as a designer I wanted clear clarity as quickly as possible yeah and once you gave it to me you if you like took it away but you quickly realize when you work in startups and technology that things change all the time yes and when you give up on the notion that that will ever go away at any level of maturity for business and it's so liberating but as far as the context switching piece what's really helped me is really trying to understand the process of design at a very abstract level because what I feel that gives you is confidence to approach any problem of business at any level of complexity right and you know when you talk about design in abstract terms of understanding you know Facebook uses this understand identify execute you understand the problem you're trying to solve to identify opportunities to improve on the incumbant solution or create something brand new and then you execute on that thing and then you add you know you can add one more to that like you validate and come back and start all over again you can apply that to anything I remember I was actually talking to someone who were trying to bring onto a lot of design team we're hiring by the way yes well god yeah I got for hiring well god you asked me right you are 50,000 so you know I had a conversation with this person and they fully understood this notion yeah and they said something to me that was pretty interesting they were like what are some other business challenges that you have at lattice right now and the design can be applied to right and this is getting away from like the actual digital product that people interact with yeah and I spoke about like okay well on our sales team for example you have your deal life span right which is the moment you've first made contact with a prospective customer yeah to the day that you close them right and in SAS companies you tend to have a known average in a company for how long that takes yes right and then he turned back and said okay I would want to figure out how to cut that average in half and I was like why he's like because I'd literally be making the company money right if I can cut the time that a sales representative right to start talking to a the customer to closing them in half I'm giving them back half their time clothes other clients yes and then we're also distinguishing the brand because everyone else would be like tell me normally did you hire this guy really close he knows he knows who he is so I know you're hearing this right now I can join man just go okay I love this guy wanna make the sky I'm not gonna let you do this yeah I realize yeah but anyway uh you know that that that is a different level of problem yeah then saying like okay how can I increase conversions in this flow and both problems are valid and both problems lead to impact for the business right but it's when you approach design from that level right it's like okay well that probe that problem of shortening the deal lifespan yeah well how would you actually approach that with design well understand why is it currently X amount of days yeah how do you figure that out you sit inside the meetings with that sales representative you are there when they make their first engagement what are they writing in that email do they have to be sending out that email is there something that can be done on the website that supersedes that entire first con just identify you are exactly right you're identifying opportunities to solve that thing yeah and then you are exploring or executing on different ideas and then you validate and you do that enough times you will shorten that thing and cut it in half amazing right if we cut it by any amount that its impact for that data right and just coming from teespring to freelancing coladas all that allowed me to do once I got confident in that level of abstraction you know just battle test that that assumption that design can be applied to anything and when I felt that confidence you know I'm obvious I get anxious all the time I'm anxious right now I think my average is right but I did that just test anyway right you come when you're going to come across enough scenarios we're like okay this seems to work you throw a problem at me I'm confident in my methodology that it will work yeah right so coming from like you know if it's leadership or management's you like I see work like it's the same thing yeah it's just a different terrain great great answer cool all right so your second question during one of the HR interviews high resolution you mentioned that there are three P's you look for a leading a new role what are they and I I like - I love triangles if I could frame anything in a model and I can model things into a triangle triangles have three sides three points are really easy to understand if they're really sticky and so my three PS of any job I was able to fit into a triangle is very happy with that is people purpose and pay before you define those yes did you have four PS and you killed one because you really like your nails this one actually fits up for training right Wow okay yeah this one yeah I have others that I have other things that I need five bullets and I hate that right now you know hey um anyway I you know people purpose and pay I'm extremely pragmatic okay I love working on things that I love to work on great but I also very pragmatic about the fact that there's two things other than purpose that matter the chemistry that I have with the people I work with and how much am I getting paid because I got to pay my a mething bill right like that's it's just it's that simple yeah and I think it's if you're thinking about leaving a job thinking about getting a job if you're assessing options it's really important I think to assess it on these three piece people do you like the people you work with you get along with them do you go out to lunch with them a lot of people don't do that a lot of people don't have a work relationship that alone is not a reason to leave if you're working in a company that you believe in and you're getting paid pretty well right so two peas there stand out pretty well one of them doesn't purpose I don't think you should work for a company you don't believe in I don't think you should work for a company whose mission you don't buy into I believe in drinking the kool-aid and I realize it's like a none political thing to say because of the whole kool-aid metaphor and what it goes back to but like if you're going to join a company and you don't drink the kool-aid you must ask yourself the question why am I here am I wasting my time I don't believe in this company I don't believe in the work I'm doing in this company I don't believe in what product that's company puts out and a good reason to be at that company is the third P I need the money I have a family I don't have the luxury of you know I live in you know some place in Alabama or some place in Ohio and I don't have businesses or big tech companies around me that can hire so I'm relegated to what I've gotten what I've got is what I've got and this pays my bills I'm going to be here this is a perfectly good reason to be at a company is if you don't have the people you don't have the purpose but you need the money most most times people will find that they don't have all three P's and by the way if you have all three P's if you're in a company where you love the people you love the purpose and it pays well and the first two companies that come to mind Google and Facebook a lot of people I talk to they're love the missions of the mission of these companies right making the world more up and unconnected making the empowering the world with the information that is available to them all across the world like these are amazing missions right and the people that working these companies aren't some of the best most brilliant people in the world but they also pay so well which is why people don't leave these companies they've got all three of the peas so when people say oh you know like Facebook's just you know it's like a like a black hole of town like people just go in there they never come out well they don't need to come out because we've got people like milk woods and Julie Zoo and like all these other people and this companies that are amazing leaders right so anywhere my creepies people purpose and pay look long and hard if you don't have any of the peas if you work with shitty people you don't believe in the company mission and they don't pay you well what's a good reason to be at this company okay a good reason to be other companies you need some experience before you move on to the thing that's actually going to pay you well and a company you believe in but um I don't think people survive in those kind of companies still too long so those are the three P's people purpose pay VP miss euro Rhonda I'm going to keep saying that cuz I love it what single message about diversity is most important to you so I'm going to answer this question from the perspective of a designer and someone who's currently recruiting for my design team when you are solving a problem for someone who you are not you don't represent them right it's very very very hard to solve that problem well you can say that you were empathizing you can say that like you can observe their problem and deduce the the core crux is that need solutions right but you can never say that confidently so the best way to build that confidence is to surround yourself with people who represent that audience and you can do this in one of two ways either in the people who you work with fellow designers or the people who you are essentially have review your designs and gaez customers or people who you bring into user research and for me that is just something that's always in the back of my head when I'm trying to scale a design pain right it's making sure that I understand our audience and I'm making sure that the people who are in in the position to decide what our solution looks like reflects that audience because and if I can't do that with the people who are on the team I'm sure it's all going to do that with the people who we put our solutions in front of great that's it okay your question to me cool so you recently made a transition from design leadership to founder I've been a founder before but it was a long time ago so this transition is fresh again right yeah what three things stuck out most to you during the series that you plan to apply in your new role what stuck out to me in this series that I plan to apply well I'm in the orthodontist space okay now the first thing that I need to know that you need to know about me is I'm not a dentist or an orthodontist so I can't be assumptive about whatever it is that I'm building so most important thing is I know I need to first understand the people we're serving and the problem we're trying to solve for in a very first hire I made and I would I would say that it's because of everything we've learned through the process of talking to our guests the very first hire I made is a neuroscience and behavioral science PhD out of Columbia to run our research and Columbia University this and she is amazing and she's going to help me talk to people bring people in watch them use our product watch them as they fix their teeth and we're going to learn we're going to learn I mean we are going to out learn our competition and then we are going to earn our competition this is what we're going to do I'll learn I'll learn I like you learn out learn and our else is what we're going to do with the way we learn is we set up the framework we set up the tools and we give people we give people the role and manifesto to go out and want to learn in the first place you need to make that a high level company level decision and as a co-founder I feel very happy and very proud to be able to and all the co-founders completely agree that this is something we need to do and complete agree that we need to understand the people we're serving but that to me is the number one thing research is so important do not be don't be a sumptuous presumptious and allow yourself to listen and grow okay okay yes all right I like it my question to you what books and resources have shaped your thinking and I and I and I don't want to be specific to design because I think that's a little narrow-minded yeah I want you to go a little bit broader well that's fine because I don't actually own a lot of design book yay so as a kid my dad studied psychology and physiology or you know the other piece the other side psychiatry no doesn't matter okay studied things that were not designed oh God had very big textbooks that were around the house that I read as a kid yeah and I got really interested in just learning how the mind works yeah and I still have that interest so it's why I love having conversations with people I just love studying people and I get a lot of books that surround those topics so ones that stand out to me there's this book that I recommend to anyone sure why meet it's called pitch anything I will pitch anything it's agreed yet it is really offered I forgot his name but it's a great book he's like a t he's arrogant yes but it's been AI knows his yes so you're kind of like okay dude it's so funny that right yeah funny that you got this book and so in this book I mean okay let me see if I can just get through some other recommendations so I just started creative confidence and from from the Kelly brothers yes is that both of them were Tom and Jerry Kelly is the Kelly brothers now has he gave us a signed copy and I feel like I have to read that book so read that book if you just want to like build creative confidence yeah as far as like communication which i think is one of the most foundational skills that you can have as a designer this is a book to read because a thing that I observe a lot of designers struggle with is they cannot talk to someone who is not a designer yes and this book teaches you how to talk to designers and everyone else in the world yeah right because it just breaks down the way that the mind actually work if you are speaking with someone who you've never spoken to before just primal instincts kick in to either fight or flight you're going to balance a billion you know yeah I work at and then leave or they'll become argumentative because you said something that triggered them yeah and this teaches you how to break that down which is very critical for design reviews for pitching big concepts of stakeholders the list goes on so if you were going to read one book and it's actually a quick read catch anything I love it great yes all right next question what's something you learned early in your career that has shaped the way you approach design and business today when I was 11 years old when I was like 10 or 11 years old I born and raised in Bombay in India and they lived in this building with this elevator and I used to get home from school and I used to draw Disney cartoons and used to jump in the elevator around 4:30 5:00 in the evening right when the parents started coming home and I used to wait for the parents to enter the elevator and the moment the elevator doors closed and the elevator slowly made its way up this is the 80s and you didn't have a best tech back then elevator tech as as the elevator made its way up in a very real sense I made an elevator pitch and I tried to get parents to buy my Disney cartoons for their kids and I had all these reasons why they should and they were they obliged and they gave me 10 rupees and 15 rupees and I remember I bring up that story because I think the first thing I learned before I even understood that I was a designer and you know drawing cartoons makes me an artist not a designer but I understood the value of knowing how to sell and I think if you're getting in design do not overlook that the ability to convince people stephen gates had this amazing quote in his episode where he says you don't present your pitch right like you don't you present like a factual thing you present a spreadsheet you pitch things that people are subjective about yes and you need to get them to believe why you they should buy from you and I've always been pragmatic about business I've always been pragmatic about money that whatever I did in my life I knew that making money was an important part of it because I also realized that not having money means you can't try to change and by and by having money to do whatever you want you'd be bad with it you'd be good it but when you're rich when you make money you can use those dollars to affect change around you and help people or hurt people I mean depending on what your intent is anyway that is a lesson I learned pretty early on in my career the career is like learning how to pitch and I think that's career life like I mean life yeah life absolutely and the second thing I'd say is it's about the people stupid it's about the people you've got to find the best people you can to work with you need to be a tailor who you surround yourself with you need to edit your friends you need to edit your your wife and and husband you need to edit your girlfriend/boyfriend you need to edit you can't edit your parents so good luck there like you you need to need to edit your co-workers you need to edit everyone around you because you are the average of the five people you spend time with the most and if you want to be the best in the world you need to find the best of the world and spend time with them this is truly believed in man this is not my saying it's just a known thing like people in that light is just a sign there's a science to back this right people are so important and then on the back end of that when you're in power you know when you when you've been given the reins and you control what people work on and how people work empower them to learn and stumble and fall and learn from experience instead of babying them giving them all the answers sheltering them defending them I don't believe in that now is raised by a military father okay so maybe you can point to that and say well your dad was a hard-ass on you which is like you're a hard-ass on people well fine we all have our baggage and our and our backgrounds or whatever right but I really do believe that when you give people the opportunity to stand there two feet without helping them that most people will look to that will take take it upon themselves to survive and we'll make it and that isn't that is the most valuable thing you can do to someone it's just to get them to learn how to survive and believe in themselves and if you do that is something I've learned early on even when I manage people now when I when I put my teams together I edit for that I look for that are you feeling sorry for yourself are you down on yourself why let's get it back up let's go you've got the best job in the world are you kidding me or designer you make things for a living you're creator you get to manifest things that are in your mind and people buy it how few people in the world have that power that is a power once you realize that and you give people the tools to empower themselves and stand on their own two feet I think you can change a lot of people's life so these are two things that I learned pretty early on there's a great lesson great now your question ah do you build on strengths or rectify weaknesses to make yourself more whole in order to be more whole you would have to work on the weaknesses mmm but it is trade-offs so I would say I honestly do both I don't think I pick one over the other I think I go through phases though and when I'm in a certain phase I'm trying to I'm focusing on one or the other so typically when I'm making a transition yeah I'm trying to build up weaknesses because what I tend to do is I try to put myself in situations where I feel uncomfortable and you feel uncomfortable when you're operating on your weaknesses so you in order for you to feel comfortable you have to turn those weaknesses into strengths however there is some level filtering some things you just know you are inherently never going to be good at because it's just not you and those things you discard them and you are not making yourself less whole you are realizing that that was never part of you to begin with yeah as far as strengths go you know strengths can easily turn to weaknesses so to maintain those it's really just muscle memory yeah those strengths that are core to me is communication the design execution because in my position right now I'm still doing it right yes so I have to be able to do it at the level that the company is paying me once it done it so next question for you how do you approach personal development I I go ham screwed I'm sorry man I'm sick of it I've been I've been going on personal development like since I was like 14 like I remember moving to the States I like I love working I remember moving to the states in 99 I didn't even know what a green card was you know like 14 or something when I moved here and I remember in the first month of me moving here walking a mile down from my road out in Jersey like a mile and a half to a Dunkin Donuts to ask them if I can get a job there they're like great give us your green card like what the is a great I was so sad when they told me that oh you know I'm a green cup by the way I'm like not an illegal citizen Iligan illegal alien um my dad was here for HB 4 h 4b whatever that B's is called but I wasn't legally allowed to work at 14 anyway I just remember being so sad that I couldn't work and this is why I got into design by the way because it was a way for me to make money without I shouldn't say this on camera because the federal government's going to have all sorts of dirt on me that's funny anyway I really do believe that one of one of my strengths is being able to pick up and drop hobbies I don't get romantic about things if I don't love it I allow myself to get bored with things if I spend a lot of time on it and so I've got this breath this library there's this broad library of knowledge where I go deep on very few things but I go really broad like I can have a pretty intelligent conversation I'm a lot of things that I've read about or know about like right now I'm trying to understand social norms and so I don't know if you have a question on books that I'd recommend like one of the books I recommend is predictably irrational and I'm reading this book dan Ariely is like an amazing author on the subject anyway I'm reading about social norms well that's not the only book I'm reading I'm reading all sorts of things I'm following podcasts on the topic you know watch youtube videos on it I read about it and I try and digest it in ways that I know how to consume the information and in ways that it makes it sticky for me can I do this for everything two years ago I wanted to pick up guitar so I bought guitars but the way I bought guitars is seven years ago I wanted to get into photography so I sold all of my photography equipment from last 7 years ago and I pulled all that money and I bought a bunch of guitars and I taught myself how to play guitar all right like this is what I do I like trade hobbies so I bought into the cameras and now I just use the same money I used 7 years ago for photography on everything else after guitars if I get into something else I'll sell my guitars and I'll buy something else right like whatever I'm like one fun yeah but I'm not romantic about it I just I just want to learn I just want to grow and and I like when I when I get serious about something like being able to ask great questions good leads good leaders ask great questions it's a great book by the way by John T Mack yeah ok understanding how to ask questions so important there's so many resources out there there's literally nothing you cannot learn about if you're willing to google it if you have the motivation to learn about it you can google it and you can find wikipedia articles on it you can find new stories on it you can find videos around it that you literally don't have to go to university university for morse most things today if you're willing to just put in that time so personal development very serious about it and gung-ho about it I go ham on it but I'm not romantic about anything and I try a lot of stuff I drop a lot of stuff and then I pick what I like and go deep on it that's kind of where I go okay all right so ham go ham okay your your next question what bothers you the most about this design industry and how would you fix it most well but one thing the one thing that bothers you the most about the design industry okay so something that irritates me a lot is people not proposing solutions I feel like it's funny that we have a name for a design Twitter we branded it but on this thing that we call design Twitter there's a lot of very quick reactions to things I felt the wrath of this oh yeah we felt it ourselves in the show oh yeah two or three times what was our show called before was called called weaponize design do you remember the shitstorm they out like that ensued well like I was digitally killed yeah yeah that's right but I mean you know I remember even when that happened like the thing I was constantly asking was like suggestions yeah right not suggested names but like approaches like how would you approach this your room and what's funny is oftentimes when you respond to anyone with like give me a suggestion or like do you have a preview have a solution in mind a lot of them get quiet right and I just I remember when I was a kid so something about me that I don't really you know most people know well as a kid I had a really really bad stuttering problem mmm awful until I was about 6 Wow and I remember I had an aunt who just really really invested in me she was like I'm this is gonna this is going to end I remember my parents were like yeah that's just going to be for the rest of his life and I mean it made me very very shy and very close I didn't talk to anyone but what I actually learned in that insecurity of speech is being very particular about what I decided to speak right and I only decided to speak when I felt I had something to say I am having something to say says that you have substance to that thing right so on Twitter specifically right there is a lot of things that are said within the design community that does not need to be said and there are a lot of conversations that are worth digging into but the people who dig into them do not have any substance right and for me if you are going to say something or counteract something come prepared with a counter yeah whether it is a suggestion a proposal a known solution because you've been in the situation before and you've vetted it right or you are opening up the discussion to find a solution together right that's it right you don't have any of those things don't say anything right right and that is one of my biggest frustrations and the thing is you can actually take the inherent problem there and apply it to design and it's perception within the workplace yeah designers we are very very very you know emotionally responsive naturally right and a lot of this stems from the ego that we have in the work that we do and then you see that manifest sometimes in the workplace where someone has an issue with your idea and before you actually want to understand the issue and figure out maybe it's go ahead and like validate a little bit more and come back with a proposal you are ready to defend something that is indefensible right yeah that's just I'm flaring up right now right like that that irritates me right and can I just make a comment yeah you know what you're really good at though it's like I mean you've like at least held my hand through this when I first felt the wrath of design Twitter's like I remember you calling me up saying Bobby do not engage like my like my as I said you know I'm a now if you guys believe in myers-briggs and stuff i'm an entp one of the character traits of an intp s we love to debate and like one of the things that you've just taught you taught me very early on when I started getting into Twitter like really getting into Twitter last year and you're like dude this should happen all the time the worst thing you can do is try to be right yeah the off you know let it slide don't how I'm not yelling at you on the phone yeah but they're wrong with yours life you know a high resolution still a better name the weaponize design yeah but but um yeah you have to you have to pick those right you know right all of them you're right and when you pick the ones pick the ones that you can debate not argue yes I gotten better because of you is what I'm saying like you've given me you've given me your you taught me to find the ones that are not necessarily winnable but worth a bull yes like the ones that are worth it yes yes yeah and you know the last thing I'd say because my first argument was like come with a proposal yes there's an exercise that I have any time I'm deciding whether to uh like that something is worth it yeah I actually try and force myself to think about solutions yes right if I cannot think of something I will respond there there's if you send me an email a DM a tweet whatever I will always respond it's a rule I made for myself because I don't like when people don't could be right yep but I will respond with a solution or a proposal if I have one if I don't have one I will say you are right or let us continue talking right and then that's it yeah and one more thing I suggest is reread yeah like like we just very read reread it not even just the thing that emond we're going to say so the thing that you are responding to yeah you don't know how many times I see someone respond to something that they clearly did not agree Moshe impulsive as opposed to like a rational reaction even like you know though we have a bonus episode coming yeah and like in this thing we ask people on Twitter for four questions yeah to ask the questions they have for us for us to answer in that interview that's right and we got a lot of responses of suggested guest yes alright people aren't alike I love that you're suggesting guests but that that wasn't our question yeah you know I want your question yeah I don't want to guess just read it the seasons done it's just just read what was said before you respond yeah thanks again to Squarespace for supporting the show Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to get a domain create a website or build an online store they make it simple to manage your online store and inventory process orders print packaging slips and customized emails Squarespace has powerful marketing tools they ensure that search engines can find your store online provide real-time analytics to help you gain customer insights and let you connect with your customers on Facebook Twitter and more if you've been thinking about starting your own online store visit squarespace.com and enter the offer code high-resolution that's one word to get 10% off your first purchase make your next move with Squarespace we'd also like to thank our friends at envision for their support envision is the world's leading product design platform powering the future of digital design through their understanding of the importance of collaboration they're used by some of the most innovative companies in the world like Facebook Capital One Netflix and Airbnb I work with remote teams all the time and I found that keeping a healthy dialogue is really important without it building strong work relationships gets a lot harder and that leads to poor collaboration I've also found that prototypes are a great way for me to show my full vision for a design and this helps cut down a lot of back-and-forth invision makes all of this really easy you can rapidly prototype your designs and collaborate across every stage of your project taking your ideas from concept to code it simplifies virtually every aspect of the design workflow it makes collaboration a core part of the process for everyone from project managers to designers developers and writers teams that build digital products are at a serious advantage when they use envision suite of prototyping and collaboration tools it's the best way to get everyone on board visit envision NASSCOM plus high resolution for three months free who are your mentors and what have you learned from them yeah you know me all nah I have no mentors and I'm serious like I have no physical mentors people that I've talked to that I consider to be mentors and this is this is like for last couple years is something that I actually regret because mentors can can shorthand you to a lot of good places if you just have the right questions to ask me I just never made the time to find someone worthwhile but I will say this I think mentors are second best to this thing that is even better to getting to growing you and giving you answers which is experience and that's where I've spent my time I've just been experiencing things I've been I've been doing things I throw myself two feet in on it like high resolutions a great example yeah I mean we had no video background we had we've never done podcast before I've never done this interview style thing before the first time I've been so funny when people say yeah you sound like a robot when you go to view people you know like when they say on YouTube their home person right I'm sure I sound like a robot but I've never done it before like but I'm willing to try right and I think more than mentorship look for experience ship which is not a word but like you look for experiences yeah things that you can do and learn from now if you want a mentor and you actually touched on this on a previous answer if you want the mentor don't look for famous names in fancy names you're probably not going to get those people what you want to do is you want to know expect specifically where you want to grow all right like what is it like what are the actual questions that you have not just hey you know Tom Kelly's my mentor my Mary like I'm Sophie you know I'm like no you want it you want to figure out what it is that you want to learn and grow in and then you want to find people this is what you touch on then you want to find people who actually have real experience when they when they give you insight and feedback and they give you advice the follow-up question is how do you know how do you know that that is the way I should do things and if their response isn't from personal experience they're probably not going to be a good John tour do you you want to find people that have done things that I've expanded there's so few people that are willing to be mentors that you can reach out to that will spend the time with you so the better thing to look for is not handicap yourself by saying I don't mentors I'm not going to grow grow through experience that is the fastest and surest way to learning and finding the answers you want to do you want answers to mr. Rondeau what important ideas have you had to understand to get to where you are today as quickly as you did and I don't think a lot of people realize how old you are which I don't have you're ok with saying this but how old are you 22 and I mean you've experienced so much so what stuff have you had to understand so early in your career to get to where you are as a designer understanding that I'm only as good as the people I surround myself with so I always try to find myself in situations where I was not the smartest person in the room yeah and I think a lot of people say this and to some people sound such a cliche but honestly I think a lot of cliches are cleats are there said for a reason right sure there's absolutely truth in this if you are the smartest person in the room you are not growing can't grow because there's no one there that can compete with you if you are not and you have the ability to listen and to learn you will grow from those people that was actually the second thing I learned I had to teach myself how to learn you know because I didn't have formal design education I wanted to design laws in high school yeah actually in middle school I started off as a writer transitioned to design and everything I was through trial and error and I realized that I had to understand the way that I personally learned and try and optimize my experiences around that so you know if you if you learn by seeing or by doing or by reading or by repeating you optimize for situations where that is what you're going to be experiencing the most amount of your time yeah because if not then you may think that you are learning by the experiences but you were actually not there right it's almost like when you're working out right there are ways to work out where you can continue going to the gym and you will never see progress mm-hmm right because you need to understand how your body works what food do you need where are you nutritionally deficient right and you find those things it's not the same for everyone so understanding how you personally learn then optimizing for that very critical and I'm glad that I learned this early you know as I don't think I think a lot of the experiences I now have I would not have had if I did not catch this early in my career I'd say one last thing is just understanding the importance of knowing what motivates other people yes this has helped me a lot from landing contracts or jobs I otherwise would not have been able to do mmm growing teens I remember when I was younger it was very very difficult to grow teens because of my age yeah like I faced a lot of ageism right it's like well your kid all right say 19 lead is exactly right and asuna when you when you understand what motivates people you know you can pretty much guide the conversation anywhere you want Yeah right but only do that if you feel that you can actually deliver on the thing that motivates that individual there's an earthquake going on right now by the way is there really a very light one keep that on camera but I was fun okay I felt a very light like quite now now I'm like that's freaking out it's all right we're not perfectly safe building an army ever like 20 stories high like it's gone sorry I mean the audio is fun um but yeah when you know what motivates people it's it's great and that that honestly comes from empathy like when you're sitting in a conversation you're not focusing on yourself you're trying to really understand yeah individual right and when you know those things and you start speaking to those things it becomes very apparent to them that you care and that you listen and I think a lot of the strong relationships I built whether it was me being grown by someone or me growing someone or me collaborating with something yeah one stems from that right um me recognizing what motivates them and doing my best to push those things forward and then realizing that I realize those things you know and actually building a trust and relationship with me and I think those three things in addition to a whole bunch of things definitely played a huge role in my career yeah you know and what strikes me is it's easy to say that I got lucky I hate that answer so the the thing with luck is that it exists it does but it's not but it's not like I marry thing Yeah right and you know people say like you can create your own luck what they're actually saying is that you made the effort right you created the circumstances and put your in a position to capitalize on a moment yeah and that moment happen and then you grabbed it yeah and there's a word for that that's an opportunist that's right right you're an opportunist I love it and I love people that are opportunity out of the way look that's the kind of person I want to work with yeah next question I've now worked directly with you for the last eight months I've known you for six seven years but like this is the first time we work together yeah like I slept in your house like three weeks yeah I know you I know your wife I know your baby that's right your baby loves me yes she does she hooks my forehead one thing I've noticed is your lack of fear when it comes to new territory yeah how do you approach new terrains and adapt so quickly I'm not fearless it scary doing something new mm-hmm but it's so exciting right you kind of trade off your survival instincts what's the worst that can happen right and if the worst that can happen is you embarrass yourself a little bit well the best that could happen I learn something new and I find out I could be this like TV personality holy like be on the upside way outweighs downside right like I might embarrass myself a little bit well what if I'm good at this like what if I actually like this might this could be a thing you and I doing this at the show right like a season two could be a thing season three could be a thing people might be learning a lot the upside is we give back to the community right so it's not question fearlessness it's a question of just you're doing the math on a thing and you're saying what's the worst that could happen what's the best that can happen but the worst that can happen here as my career tanks I'm probably not going to take that risk just make any sense to me to do a set you know our side project that could hurt me for a very long time right my fearlessness its measured courage hmm all right interesting I'm ready cause it's opportunity cost right it's but it's measure courage I'm not saying I don't have courage for everything you put me in front of 10,000 people and you know where Steve gage talks about getting in front of 10,000 people and talking and he had to build up to that it's not normal like we're not built to stand in front of 10,000 people and speak okay and like before the show started I was nervous I'm nervous now we're nervous for every interview when we talk to people I want to make sure I'm saying the right things what important I want to make sure we're adding value to people watching this right and so you kinda just need to put yourself in situations and and watch how you react to those to the elevations and so what your what your what your I think what you're talking about is my game face I've got a game face but I'm not not scared under that game face I've just got the courage to go through it as long as the upside outweighs the downside so it's all opportunity cost in assessing that yeah here's my question to you all right what mitts or misnomers about the design line of work would you caution the next wave of designers against so one myth and it's not even just about design this is just about life in general is that there are there is an absolute answer to every question yeah when you enter a new industry career terrain it's it's understandable why you will have a set number of questions yeah that you feel if you get absolute answers to your set because it's um it's clarity and it's it's clear II and that's the that's a very empowering thing it's like I know what this is I know what I need to do next that's right the thing is with InDesign there is a lot of stuff that the supposed grapes and leaders of this industry have still yet to figure out mm-hm so when you ask someone a question and design about design like how do I you know get to where you are in this amount of time or whatever the answer is never going to be clear right but one common thing that you can always pull from someone's answer is that you at least have to try right so if you ask me what should my process be you know you are going to give it sorry if someone asked me that question I'm going to give them a different answer than you there might be some some symptomatic overlap but the actual delivery is going to be different yes if they operate on your answer they are now embodying Bobbi's process if they operate a mind they're embodying Sierra's process but you your process is not better than mine my process is not better than yours they're different yeah um and a designer who's coming in needs to understand that right that's just about any any question you're going to come with likely it's a gray area when it comes to the answers right but the constant is trying try yours maybe it works you know try mine maybe it works right and as you're trying all these different things you're going to figure out what works and what it's not working your situation and then guess what you're going to come up with your own yeah and then five or ten years later someone else is going to come and ask you like alright so what should my process be like well it depends what mine is and like blah blah blah right and I think that's very empowering because you don't get let down when you hear these kinds of answers anymore right when you hear someone say I really don't know man I really don't know or like you know you can try this but I see some of their faces drop a cop yeah yeah so kind of figure this out right and it's like yeah you're right you have to and the best way for you to do that is your figure is to try and trigger it out and yes that's just very empowering I think another myth is uh that designers have gotten their seat at the table okay I love it right this was like a hot thing yeah like a year or two years ago I was running a big thing for this I mean yeah that's really what's that a few times in this year yeah course um so one this who comes up the people who comes up with these things I really want to do design like this like who actually said it first I'm really curious anyway this figurative table that we've been speaking about now for like a quarter of a decade right um you know the analogy I give people is like if you think about like a dinner table yeah and you you walk up to a dinner table and there are three people sitting there crying and they are speaking a language that you do not understand I don't speak French so let's just pick French right they're all freaking speaking French and I speak English yeah I can technically sit down at that table yeah and I'm now a part of the table yeah no one's ever gonna care what I say though sure they literally cannot understand me and I cannot Amanda right so yeah I have a seat yeah but I'm not exactly enjoying the company Yeah right I think we've gotten there I think we now have a person in companies that have some understanding of design sitting at this table that we like to speak about right they are not yet being heard and they are not hearing the other people and the reason why is because we are fundamentally speaking a different language the language that everyone else at the speak of this table is speaking is business yeah and the language that we are speaking is a very very old definition of design yes right and mine little design and the thing that's missing from that definition is business and goals yes right yes now as designers we love to say the word empathy it's like our favorite word we start every single answer with every right so if we truly embody empathy in this scenario it will say that we are the one who will try and learn enough French yes start speaking rather than waiting for them to understand our language right and in this situation it's actually a double plus because now we are actually going to be able to converse and the thing that we're learning is actually something that it's fundamental for us to learn yeah business right so once someone's like oh yeah you know like designer finally got their seat at the table we got a seat we are not yet being heard yeah right and the thing for us to do now is to be hurt and the thing that is missing from our language is business yes Wow I completely agree with that sorry got a little yeah yeah yeah requests yeah how you doing I'm doing good doing all right I'm doing great after you my question all right all right when a designer asks you for book recommendations what are your top three picks I love audio books I listen audio books and I read a lot of books so gracious reader I drop books that I'm like in completely you know I pick up books that I don't finish that sort of thing but I'm not going to recommend design books per se actually I might recommend one bonus design book but here are three quick books okay the first is creativity ink okay okay why creativity ed catmull wrote this book eco co-authored ed catmull is a co-founder of Pixar in this entire book is a case study on how the greatest design company in the world Pixar not Apple Pixar they really are one of the great design companies how they began to understand how delicate of a microcosm a team is and like how they how they framed everything to cater to the best possible variation of a name where they talk about you know it's why people yeah not the idea you focus on the people you edit the people the idea comes to you you give mediocre people a great idea they they butcher it you give mediocre ideas to great people they'll make something of it right I think there is just case study after case study I was sad when this book was over creativity Inc if you haven't read it this is one of the best business books ever written and it really is a business book it's not a design book it's a business book about how a business should be run it's got these rich stories of creation and failure and questioning and heated argumentation and process augmentation this all these really interesting angles of business that people don't talk about that fundamentally really are rude to the bedrock of all these things is if you design it well you will create a great company ok the second book is the ten phases of innovation by Tom Kelley why the ten paces well ten pieces of innovation will show you if you're a designer really any contributor to a product team it'll show you a spectrum of responsibilities that you might not know exist on a team and that you might be good at one of those things and you'll have to be a designer you can be a anthropologist you can be an organizer it can be a set designer a stage designer right you can be the manager every single role on the spectrum of product creation is defined in this book if you're looking for ways out of your current role and you want to know if there's something else out there for you Tom Kelley does an amazing job in the ten phases of of innovation predictably irrational is an amazing book you must read this book one more time I'm going to tell you why okay predictably irrational goes through the difference between social norms and market norms we expect what we think is predictable to be market norms if I asked you hey can you help me with something and I don't offer a sum you will help me and feel good about it but if I paid you $30 right after you help me you'd be insulted by it as well market norms dictate binaries right zero is one is better than zero I'm giving you $30 you are $30 richer because you helped me you should be happier but you're not happy why is that because there's something called social norms the way the mind works where we are predictably we act irrational predictably right this book makes a Dan Ariely is amazing author he's a researcher and he just goes case after case after case around what you thought should happen what actually does happen and why right why is this book important if you're in design you need to understand a you don't know what people are going to do when the user product okay people are irrational yes the the moment you think you have the answers and and Daniel burka touches on this in his interview the worst thing you can do is be assumptive and think you've got the answers the best thing you can do is just watch people learn from them and this book will give you the the recipe not of how to watch it will give you the recipe to understand that you don't have all the answers right and I and I really like this book and the bonus book is by Mike Montero it's called design is a job every single designer in the world needs to read this book if you are student you need to read this book if you're a freelancer if you're in age if you own an agency should work at Google you need to read this book because Montero in these many pages I don't know what these many is in the thinnest possible book lays out the case for how to think like a designer and a business person how to get your money from clients how to pitch clients what kind of clients to pitch what kind of jobs to take how to say no to jobs right how to think about your work and the impact of your work in so few pages he lays the most pragmatic insights and context around what a designer's job is so these are the books I'd recommend okay okay so you weren't you didn't go to school we have that in there is in common but I wonder if you feel like people coming out of school like what knowledge do they have that might take you some time to learn and what knowledge do you have because you didn't go to school and this might just be a rehash of everything to talk about but what knowledge do you have that's going to direct them a long time to learn yeah so something I felt early in my career that something I felt was the lack of principles yeah knowing the principles yeah and those foundational principles you learn in design education that we're just in college period like if you take any sort of design of course so things like you know typography hierarchy whitespace all these things are still foundational yeah when you're far into your career it's muscle memory yeah so you if you were firing into your career and you're hearing me say this is I kind of those are not going no they are yeah it's just that you can do them with your eyes closed now so it doesn't feel like anything anymore but when you're starting out you can feel the absence of that knowledge and I felt it was a lot of late night reading trying to figure things out finding products and services that I liked and recreating those things pixel for pixel so that I can just build the muscle memory of that thing and then ask people who know right but I felt that I could have gotten a head start on that and probably spent the time I spend focusing on learning principles learning other things that I just came into my career with those things as far as something I feel like I learned by not going to design education that I feel people coming out can learn or should learn is how to work with non designers mmm that's such a good one I was thrown into it yeah right my first my first ever role as a non writer was at well my company yes years ago and I was working with two technical co-founders yeah and I was the only designer right and they're like you design and we build everything else yeah and I had to quickly learn how to work with them you know I had to understand deadlines so I had a understand understand how to give them assets that they can translate into product yeah they're like hey that's not possible man yeah no that's actually not possible all right like you need to change that right now and you know I can't remember we spoke about it in this episode or not but the what happens when you're just surrounded by designers is you understand designers yeah and no one else but in order for any thing that you designed to actually get out there into the world there are a lot of other kinds of people involved yes and if you don't know how to work with these people nothing will ever get across the line yeah right and if they do they'll get it they'll get it across the line without you yeah right and I can see why it would take so long to understand this yeah because most people I mean most companies don't even give designers the opportunity to reach across the aisle and work out other people because they don't understand that it's fundamental for designers to be able to do exactly their treaty sometimes like a like an agency within the company I got a room well I god those are the designers but how they dress they have yes like you know and I think that's something that I learned okay by just being thrown into it and I think it's something that I it would have taken me a while to learn had I come from an environment of not being surrounded by those kinds of people all right yeah so next question for you so outside of resources like high resolution what else can we be doing as a design community to shape the next generation of product people and you can bucket high resolution into video series posi yeah yeah yeah I mean video series podcast books are important I think experience is important I think being intentional you know what it's something that isn't obvious I think would be most useful here is don't bucket yourself into a specific kind of vertical to design poorly if you say things like have an app designer your your secluding yourself from a world of possibilities you know there's you should be open to working in any kind of business on any kind of problem and the thing that you should be focusing is your your time on is understanding how to solve problems how to talk to people how to observe people right so resources I think you should you should commingle with people that are not designers and try and understand just reach out to a salesperson try and tell something don't just talk to a salesperson honestly try and sell something go out there and make a pitch see if anyone would buy the that you want to sell right and it might be good that you can't sell but now you know you can't sell it something you should grow into right so the best thing you can do is just experience things but really like I I don't believe in just reading books and just talking to people I think you got to throw yourself into something and again do the do the what's the what's the word I use they're the measured courage do the measured courage thing as long as it doesn't tank your career doesn't hurt you physically doesn't harm people around you do it for yourself okay learn so that that is something that a person can do for themselves it's good and I agree with that but what is something that we can do as a design community right oh great you are stop patting each other on the back huh okay stop patting each other so sick of it Sarah I'm seriously I'm done with it I cannot if I see one more goddamn tweet about let's give this guy you know kudos for trying something he doesn't this person hasn't done anything okay like stop giving people kudos do you realize I literally just interviewed someone for my current company my new company who was one of 14 valedictorians I didn't know that in her school in her graduating class I literally did not know that was a thing and I asked her was I dreaming you were what she said she was the valedictorian I said so tell me about the speech that you gave she said well I didn't give this speech is like a little valedictorians give the species again but I was one of 14 I was like I was not possible she's had a 4.0 GPA Wow when did the world move from a single person leading the valedictorian stage to now having anyone with a 4.0 stop patting people on the back stop giving out those trophies stop thinking you're special right that's the best thing you can do just as human being that just for the design industry right um that came from a place of a group I like I'm jealous I'm hello I'm say I'm sick of it yeah I'm done with it all right why because it doesn't grow you it doesn't grow you you know so dan dan petty has his new Dan petty show and in his first show he touched on this night I love that he did this where he said if all you're looking for I'm sorry Dan I'm going to butcher this but if you said if all you're looking for is positive feedback it'll grow your ego hmm if all we do is give people positive feedback it'll grow their ego so you really want to give people candid feedback you want to be you want a radical candor my sheryl sandberg i think wrote the book on it no it wasn't Sheryl Sandberg was some of that work for her anyway radical candor is a very important part of growing people around you stop patting people on the back stuff you're not doing them any favors you're you're upsetting them for the environment that they're not going to be equipped to deal with business people don't give a about designers sales people don't give a about designers engineers despise designers in most companies okay we are a roadblock to getting things done we are in expense we are an L on a P&L statement okay we are a loss okay stop patting each other on the back give each other some radical candor grow each other and hopefully it'll subside egos and as an industry we're going to we're going to move forward mr. Aranda yes money not being an issue is there something else you'd rather be doing right now instead of being a designer this is the last question by the way we're the last question yeah okay so money not being an issue and also skill or ability to do the thing not being an issue I would want to be a musician hmm because that's right you you were training a violin right viola viola yeah I mean really really close so you're completely fine my dad my dad is a self-taught violas just a slightly bigger violin let's it is and I mean other things but yeah yes so my dad's like a self-taught like trained professional pianist yeah and as a kid he tried to teach me piano my dad has a military upbringing so he is very very very rigid about stuff yeah I remember him trying to teach me the piano and piano is all about like you know a big part of it is actually just like your form with your hands right and a lot of people have very sloppy form so I remember he was trying to teach me good form by putting mind you I was like five putting like a raw egg in my hand and telling me that like if you drop the egg and that's of my piano you're paying for my pn5 you're okay like so odd but okay right to teach me that form and I think you know as happens parents when they try and teach their kids stuff the kids either love it or they hate is never in between and I kind of like just rebelled and I abandoned the piano and I actually picked up the viola in revolt I was like let me pick up an instrument that you do not know how to play yeah so that I can learn without you teaching it to me right but I didn't abandon that I just kind of like just stopped after a certain while but it's always this thing when I hear an orchestra play or I see a pianist sit down I just envy them I'm like I like you have I want and I think that irritates me is that I know that I can do it if I decided to do it because I did it yes right I actually critters it so yeah if I could just like be like peace out design yeah it was music man I travel the world I think that's a kind of design yeah I mean like yeah but if we're talking about digital I got ready house ketchup I'd be operating I would I would I would pay to watch you play I'm serious like hey me and then we can like go find a violin I'll play real quick how much are we talking I do some guitar okay like yeah like stupid acoustic grammar I'm sorry about it cool all right final final question let's do this Jared I'm going to take my glasses off broke a final gridlock one of the show goodness so I'm dirty so envision one of our sponsors love them they did this amazing thing where every Tuesday they would help us on push our most recent episode and they had amazing copy yeah button copy for every for every guess I can't remember it we'll just like just go through our Twitter yeah but this leads my question okay you used to take a screenshot of them from your phone and freaked up because I love their writing yeah their buttons are so awesome and the most predictable first reply to any of those tweets was how great their writing is No why do you have 144 thousand emails in your inbox at the top left there just be this huge fat number and I'm like that's his inbox I can't believe this is your last question we're at the end of the show God we we have we've gone to war together we've gone through the pits of hell together you wouldn't know about my emails yes and a lot dude a lot of people would've though a lot of people want to know so it's alright here's what here's a piece of advice don't let little red badges and email numbers dictate how you feel if you get flustered by a email number like you're not going to make it through life life's too hard man I've got other to deal with you think I've got seven different email accounts okay seven I've got I've got the high-resolution email I've still got my goddamn weaponized design email where I still get emails to it I got my personal email I got my business email I've got my last businesses email I just I've got all these emails and I've got this flurry of stuff coming through and the thing that I realized is to get to inbox zero require so much effort why would I put in the effort I'm just going to scan the things I need I'm going to go into the stuff I want to read and everything else I'm just going to leave and if it's important enough they'll reach back up to me I know that's that's probably a selfish thing to say but I don't know fricking email number dictate how I feel people on Twitter don't freak out about I have a hundred forty-four thousand probably at this point 148 thousand read emails my new company is only three months old you don't have do you know how many unread emails I have already few thousand yeah I've already had a couple thousand unread emails why am I going to go through that much content that's insane that is and why would I clear that that's insane you know it's just like free garbage you're not polluting the world and it's garbage is just sitting there that you don't have to clean up you're like I want to clean that up next that's it let's lower any Michelle on us now they know can I do one more thing Paul give me the give me that white piece of paper here's what we're going to do we're going to end on this I want to know I want to know who your top three guests are in this paper we're going to rip this I can't believe that was your final email from I your final cut I did it for the community man it's it I did it was immediately it's just ridiculous here you know me for seven years look what we can do we can we can do like a useless list of that answer and anytime someone tweets that just respond with that just sorry about that alright Jared here's what you're going to do you're going to rip out three pieces of paper right we're going to write down our three favorite guests from the show the people we learn the most from the people we I enjoy having every guest obviously I learn from every single one of them my goodness we wouldn't pick them if they aren't in cuiabá those are the three that you keep going back to the three that you learn the most from and what we're going to do is we're going to secretly write down the names we're going to fold the pieces of paper and we're going to raffle it so that when we pick our names out it's not in ranked order so we want to be fair to the top three sound good do you have ten seconds go ahead for something I'm ready to go all right mix it up mix it up you don't have tips see I am right now you know how like I feel good I'm cute I'm such a lightweight I don't need a name for it I just feel good all right you guys have seen we have two renames or shuffelin mr. ron do you go first who is your top 3 guest Tom Kelly all right Rochelle King all right and drea Mallard all right I loved Andrea already telling them Tom Kelly that's pretty funny I feel hot man we probably the same last person wait whatever if we do we need to flip together oh well I don't think I don't I don't know I'm being something bright so that's okay we'll put together but does it begin with it yes oh my god go give it again - yeah one Jerry Underwood all right that's a wrap on the show we're done thank you for watching it's been so good having you guys here we're done I'm exhausted we're done yes namaste thank you thank you so much bye hey you made it to the end congratulations thanks for watching the episode I really really hope you liked it if you did like it please leave us a review on the iTunes Store and by the way if you have any questions that came up because of the content that we covered with our guests go on YouTube go on Twitter you can tweet us you can leave us a comment we'll get back to you we'll help you as much as possible at high-res podcast that's the the screen name or the handle for Twitter for Instagram for Facebook find us talk to us we want to converse with you we're not going to leave here by the way without also thanking our friends at Sorrell video they've been an amazing partner on this entire project so Cyril video is a creative studio based out of Portland Oregon they'd helps creative communities tell stories for over 10 years they've done advertisements behind the scene footage and documentaries for companies like Google slack xoxo festival Adobe Intel they're incredible they've traveled with us through the entire country documentary stories with our guests that's incredible thank you so much sir oh listen if your startup looking to elevate your product if you're a big company looking to humanize your brand you're somewhere in the creative community you just want to tell a story you've got to check out the team at circle video it's searle video comm se8 RLE video comm check out our friends at cyril thank you so much guys you guys been incredible in this project [Music]

Channel: High Resolution

Views: 15,447

Rating: 4.9425287 out of 5

Keywords: jared erondu, bobby ghoshal, lattice, candid, design, design thinking, process, strategy, leadership, ui, ux, business, high resolution, podcast, education, startup, startups, university, design school, candid co, mba, sales, selling, wework

Id: OdnRU1dZaPA

Length: 79min 15sec (4755 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 29 2017