[♪] JonMarc Grodi: Well, hello,
and welcome back to 'The Journey Home' program. I'm your guest host,
JonMarc Grodi, filling in for my father,
Marcus. And tonight, we have the distinct pleasure,
as always, to hear another story
of how God, in His wonderful mercy, has brought another soul,
not just to His Son, but to His Son's Body,
the Church, to this Wonderful Church
that He's given us, He wants to invite us
into. I'm joined by
Maija Fish. Welcome, Maija. Thanks for coming
to the program. Maija Fish: Thank you. Thanks for having me. JonMarc: Maija is a former
Evangelical Protestant, and actually, good friends
of our family. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: I actually had
the distinct privilege of being your son's
Godfather. Maija: Yes. Yes. My only son. JonMarc: Johnny. Maija: Yeah. Little Johnny. JonMarc: Getting big. So... Maija: Yes, he is. JonMarc: Well, thanks for
coming out today, Maija. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: I've heard
bits of your story before, but I'm really excited to
sit back down and... Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: ... hear
the whole thing. So, if you would go back
to the, all way back to
the beginning. Where did your spiritual
journey to the Lord start? Maija: Okay. Wow. Well, so I grew up in... I'm from Upper Michigan,
Marquette, Michigan, the UP. I'm a Upper. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: And I grew up in what I like to call
a "church positive home." So, my family was
not religious. But they were... They would identify themselves
as Christian. My dad was a non-practicing
Catholic. My mom was a Lutheran. But she came to her faith
as a teenager. So, they brought us to church
some Sundays. I remember going to
Sunday school as a kid. And really,
I remember having the Little Golden Book,
'I Can Pray to God.' I remember going to
Sunday school. I remember my grandmother,
my dad's mother, praying her rosary, and kneeling in front of her,
at her bed, at night when we went to visit them
on vacation when I was a kid,
just, so, I had very tender associations
with faith and with God. And I think,
especially as a kid, I wanted to know,
I wanted to understand. I had a lot of questions,
lots of questions. My dad related to me,
a funny story. This is when I was
in college, he shared this with me. When I was in Sunday school,
as a kid, he, the pastors would come to
the classroom, and we would be able to
bounce questions off of them. And I was like, well, "What about if Adam and Eve
existed, what about the dinosaurs, and what about
outer space?" and all these
different things. JonMarc: You were that member
of the class. Maija: I was that kid. JonMarc: I see. Maija: I was that kid. Yeah, I was like,
I was never the type where just giving me
an answer was enough. I really wanted to
understand, and I think that really
served me, in life, and in my faith journey... JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: ...really wanting to
make something my own, and be, to be genuine,
to be authentic in what I was practicing. So, my dad said that, I guess at one point
during the week. The pastors called him
and said, "Do you know what questions she might be asking
this Sunday? Because we want to try and get some answers for her." So... JonMarc: That's awesome. Maija: That was
a pretty good one. JonMarc: Okay. So again,
the tender associations, kind of this positive,
ambient atmosphere. And you had
a lot of questions. Did any of that penetrate in terms of relationship
with God? Or was that still kind of
more out there? Maija: Yeah. I don't think so. I think it was really more
a desire. There was one point where my parents were
out of town, and my grandpa was
watching us kids, and I wanted to go to
church, so he let me go. I might have been in
First Grade, and I walked all the way
to the church, which was two miles away. I went myself, because I really wanted
to go. So, yeah,
there's that desire there, but there wasn't really
a strong understanding of what faith looked like
or what that meant. Maija: And fast-forward to
middle school. I ended up dropping out of
Confirmation, and I think it was
Seventh Grade. And it was when they were
talking about some of the Patriarchs
in Genesis that lived to be 200,
300 years old or something. And I just remember
thinking, 'This is a bunch of
garbage. I don't believe this.' And I just left. I dropped out of
Confirmation. And my mom was like,
"Okay, fine. We're not going to force you
to do it," And that was that. I ended up... I had a friend at the time, whose father was a professor
at the university, and she was Bahá'í. And I would go to
their house for their prayer meetings. And for about
a year-and-a-half or so, I was kind of going
with her to these Bahá'í
prayer meetings. I even did a little
pilgrimage to Wilmette, to the Bahá'í Temple
with them one year. My parents were
a little nervous about this, because it was a completely
different religion. JonMarc: Well, in Bahá'í, in a couple sentences is,
sort of... How would you describe it, to those who aren't familiar
with it? Maija: Yeah. So, Bahá'í essentially; and my apologies to any
Bahá'í listeners, because I'm not
a representative of the Bahá'í faith. JonMarc: Let us know,
send us an email. Maija: Yes. JonMarc: Set us straight
if we get it wrong here. Maija: Please. Please. The Bahá'í faith,
or Bahá'í religion was in like the 1800s,
I believe. And the, essentially,
their belief is that the different leaders
of the main religions that we think of,
like Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, they were all prophets
for their age, and that the latest,
most recent one was Bahá'u'lláh, and he is the one that
they follow his writings. JonMarc: Gotcha. Maija: So, they kind of
have a... There's no Heaven or Hell, as far as I,
my understanding was at the time. Rather, it's sort of a,
kind of a world peace, sort of, everybody get along
type of thing. JonMarc: Sure. Maija: I think what really
attracted me to it was that personal
relationship and that personal practice. That was something
that was new to me. JonMarc: Among seekers,
too. Maija: Yes, people that were
earnestly seeking, and like I said,
that was a biggie. I ended up distancing myself
from that, partly because
that friend and I, she and I weren't
super close, and I felt like it didn't
make sense, even then. It's like,
well, if Jesus said that He's the Way,
and the Truth and the Life, well, how does that
square with, these subsequent religious
teachers? It seemed like
their messages were contradictory, didn't make sense
that what they said was only for
their own age. Because that wasn't what they were teaching
themselves. JonMarc: So, about
how old were you at this point? This is... Maija: That was Eighth Grade
that that ended. And then, fast-forward
into high school, and essentially, I got
caught up with high school, freshman year. And then, fast-forward
to sophomore year. I had a few,
four classmates that were outspoken
evangelicals. One of the boys
was my neighbor that I had gone to the same Lutheran church
with growing up. I had known him
since elementary school. And another kid,
his name was Shawn. He was... I like to call him
the 'Jesus t-shirt kid.' He always had
'The Lord's Gym' shirts on and stuff like that. He was part of an evangelical
youth group. And they were even
a music group, I think that would tour to different parishes
around there called 'New Kids
on the Rock.' And he was just really,
he was, he struck me as
a very happy person. And he was really open
and outspoken about his faith. And that;
so, sophomore year, I went and hung out
with him with another group
of his friends. And it was such an impression
on me that he got along with
his younger brother so well. And I have two younger
siblings, my sister being three years
younger than me. And she and I used to fight
like cats and dogs. Probably coming more from me
than anything. And the fact that he
and his brother were best of friends, I was like, 'Wow,
I want what he has.' I should hang out with him
more often. That February; so, it was only,
not even a month later, he and the three
classmates, the boy, Andy,
that was my neighbor, and then, two other boys
were killed in a car accident, going to a basketball
tournament. And so, that was really a very big turning point
for me as a teenager, because for some reason, I had always thought
of myself as being the white-haired
old lady in church, some day. I just imagined
that that's what I would do when I was old,
but I hadn't given it much more thought
than that. And going through that process
for the first time of loss and being confronted
with mortality and things, made me see, 'Oh, maybe I won't
get to be a white-haired old lady
in church. What now?' So, that was big. But I didn't know,
at that point, what to do with faith
or what that meant. I just, again,
it's this longing. My junior year, I was
a foreign exchange student, in Germany,
for the year. I didn't love high school
super much, so I kind of plotted
my escape and fled the country
for a year. I swear, Mom and Dad,
I'm sorry. I gave you a lot of
gray hairs. But I went,
and when I went, I took my little
Good News Bible that I had gotten in
Third Grade Sunday School, and I would remember
reading my Bible, and then, just praying
the 'Our Father', because I didn't know
how else to pray. And that year was really,
really big for me, because when you go on
a foreign exchange... And if anybody watching
has gone through that experience of living in
another country, another culture, it really strips away
everything. I was taken out of
my community, my language
to communicate. In a way,
it sort of strips away an aspect of
my own personality of my self-expression, to my hobbies
were kind of gone. I had my sports that I had
been involved with, and those were gone,
just my culture, all of that. And it made me see how I,
it gave me that, it made me realize that longing that I had
for God and how much I needed Him. And that was a big,
shifting year for me. JonMarc: I want to
mention again for the radio listeners that our guest tonight is
Maija Fish, a former Evangelical
Protestant. You make me think of, Maija,
with this foreign exchange, you think of pilgrimage,
how sometimes we have, we get into our routines. We get kind of settled
into life. And precisely,
the purpose of pilgrimage is to kind of go to
a new place, to set aside
a lot of that so that the questions, so the seeking can
kind of open back up
in a new context, and it's almost like, that's a little bit of
what happened, unintentionally perhaps by the exchange
experience. Maija: Yeah, I was wanting
to go out and have this great
adventure. And it was
a very hard year. I mean, I was only 16
when I went, which is shocking
to me now to think that I went away
at that age, but yeah. When you strip away
all those things, I think that we can give us
that security. And in a sense, can distract us
from our needs, sort of that breaking it down
type of thing... JonMarc: Right. Maija: ...I think,
had that effect. One thing that
I didn't mention, in my hometown, there is this really
beautiful cemetery called Park Cemetery. And I would like walking
through there. People would walk
their dogs there and everything. I would occasionally
go walking there. And I liked going through the section of the really
old headstones and looking at
the names. And I'd walk across. And I thought to myself, who is, this guy, Joe,
or something? And then,
I thought to myself, when Joe was alive, he was probably
very important to himself, the choices he made,
and what motivated, and so forth. And he probably didn't think that there would be
a teenage girl some day named Maija walking over his grave, asking what the heck,
who he was. And I thought,
'How am I different? I'll probably be in the
same boat someday.' And aren't we all? And I thought to myself,
'People want to live on. They want to be
remembered. They want to make a mark
on the world, and be in matter,
and be important.' And I think, 'Well, okay. What lives beyond me? Well, other people do. So, okay. I can live for others. But ultimately, other people are in
the same predicament. And then,
in a generation or two, you're forgotten
as well. And ultimately, the whole world
will pass away, and what's left
but God.' And it was
that realization I made, during my exchange year,
that I said, "Oh, well. Well, I want to live
for God then." But again, I didn't know
what that looked like. So, I resolved that
that just meant doing, and there's a lot of
oriented towards doing. So, when I came,
I resolved that when I got back
to the States that I would teach
Sunday school. JonMarc: Ah, yes. Maija: Yeah,
which I actually did. I taught First Grade
Sunday School my senior year
of high school. So, yeah. JonMarc: And so, this,
what was the context of the, in this teaching? Was it the, in your,
the Lutheran background still? Where was the Sunday
school? Maija: Oh, the Sunday
school? JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: It was at that same
Redeemer Lutheran Church that Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church in my hometown that I taught
First Grade. JonMarc: So, you'd
encountered, again, the example of
the high school student, your friend,
who's a Christian witness, sort of, made you think a little bit directly
about faith. At this point, in terms of
the different faiths... You had the experience
with the Bahá'í. Did you have a sense of,
'Okay, well, Lutherans, or this kind of flavor
of Christians, with this flavor of
theology,' you didn't have any sense
of that? Maija: Not at all. JonMarc: Okay. Maija: Not at all. I really didn't have
the context of Protestantism versus
Catholicism, how Lutheranism might be
different than Baptist, or Methodist
or Calvinist theology. And I think that sort of
general vagueness, theological vagueness
kind of followed me into my Christian walk
as it developed later on. It was more of a, yeah, Jesus loves me,
kind of thing. JonMarc: So, you're teaching
Sunday school? Maija: Yeah, yeah. So, I came back from
my exchange year. I started teaching
Sunday school. And that summer, I ran into a guy
that I knew, he, from high school, he was a couple
of years, a few years older
than me, and went off to college. And when he was
in high school, was not, didn't identify
himself as Christian,
at all. And he went off to college and became a born-again
Christian. And when I ran into him, incidentally,
at a music festival, he had his Bible with him,
of course. And he said, "If you died tonight,
where would you go?" and "You need Christ." And I thought, 'What? I've never heard this. This is completely new
information. How did I miss this?' And it was
the next weekend, I went with a couple of
other friends that were incidentally
part of the same kind of
evangelical youth circle, and brought me to
a Pentecostal, I think it was
a Pentecostal-ish Church. Maija: And side note,
my softball coach, one of my softball coaches
was the youth pastor there. I saw him,
and I was like, "Oh." And I got saved. I received Jesus as my personal Lord
and Savior, in August of 1998, going into my senior year
of high school. And so, I was very, very
on fire in that new fervor of somebody
who's newly saved and very excited about
my faith. That was kind of
the start of the next phase for me. JonMarc: So then, how did it
perceive from there? Maija: I was involved in
the youth group there at the church. There was also
a Bible study group in my high school. And there's a,
Northern Michigan University is also in my hometown. And so, we were able to
sometimes drop in on Campus Crusade meetings
on campus. So, I got kind of my foot
in the door with some of the
campus ministry, as a senior
in high school, because I was taking
a college class. So, I was able to get access
onto campus and get to know some other student,
college students on campus, and have an inroad there. So, I did go to
Northern Michigan University for my undergrad, and was involved
with campus ministry throughout my four-and-a-half
years of college there. And that was really where I kind of further
came into my faith and practiced
and did some mission trips and things like that,
Bible studies a lot. That was, my campus ministry
really defined my college experience. But towards, as I progressed
through college and into my senior year, I was applying to
dental school. At the time,
I had changed my major the Fall of
my senior year. So, hence,
the longer stretch there. But one thing
that I felt... I should back up
a little bit. One thing that was, that marked that time
of my life is I was still really
seeking. I would listen to
a lot of Christian radio, D James Kennedy,
Ravi Zacharias, Chuck Swindoll. I'm trying to remember
some of the other preachers, but a lot of these guys
that are on Christian terrestrial
radio, listened to a lot of that, was just always
wanting to know more, and do more, and really live out
my faith. And one of the things,
in my campus ministry, was they had... The campus minister
had this saying, "Love God, hate sin,
enjoy people." And the theology of
how to live our lives really kind of boiled down to,
'Love Jesus. All this other stuff
is secondary.' And that wasn't enough
for me, because I felt like, when it came to
these questions about how to live
my life, how to,
what I would call now 'vocational discernment,' which that wasn't a term
that I had at the time, but just trying to
figure out what to do with my life,
about getting married, trying to,
the whole courting thing that was really
a big deal back in the late '90s,
early 2000s, kind of navigating
that mindset, and it really felt like
a square peg trying to fit myself
into a round hole in a lot of ways. I wanted to go on
and pursue a professional degree. I felt this desire to do
something great for God. And, but not really sure
how to live that out. If I listened to
these different preachers on the radio, I listen to my various
campus ministers, they were, I was very attracted
to people who were earnestly
living out their faith. But the problem
I ran into was that they weren't
all saying the same thing. Sure, they were saying,
"Love Jesus." Okay, great,
but as far as the questions on,
'What is baptism?' The questions on
the Sacraments; which again,
I wasn't even thinking the term
Sacraments at the time; whether you fast
or not fast, whether you can
drink alcohol or where that's definitely
not okay, because Jesus drank
grape juice, or these kind of things,
it was frustrating. And I didn't like
the answer of, 'Well, it doesn't matter,
we can just love Jesus," because it's not like
these things don't matter. They matter. JonMarc: Right. Maija: And I didn't like how things just sort of
came back to me where I had to be the one
to decide what was important
and what wasn't important. That's too convenient,
because if I decided, well, fasting whatever, or, oh, chastity,
in this particular way and the confines
of marriage, whatever works for me,
and that's fine, and I don't,
I wasn't, it was a little tiresome
to try and build the 'Church of Maya',
the 'Church of Me', and what if I chose
not to challenge myself? How would I grow
in my faith? So, I didn't have an answer
to that, but that's kind of
the mindset that I was in. Towards the end
of college, I was wrestling with
a lot of these questions. JonMarc: You also mentioned
earlier, the sense of after a couple of these
conversion moments, in particular, that, part of what you
gravitated towards was the sense of
needing to do something and do it, it seems like
maybe that was a little bit of
the struggle, too, of not to find, yeah, this,
almost this activism, this need that I need to
look busy. I need to get
something done, which, and again, especially
if you don't feel like you've found the right place
in the Church, I haven't, it seems like that would
exacerbate that questioning, because it's like,
I need to be sure that I am at
the right place, so that I can discern
these questions, that I can really receive
what God wants to give me. So, it's not just me
doing, me just creating this
on my own. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: Yeah. It's also not
a pleasant place to be in terms of being able to
receive from God. I see now. I don't think I... JonMarc: Sure. Maija: ...I don't think I had the clarity of that
at the time. But when it's sort of like
this feeling of, almost a burden to go out
and do things for God. That's how I felt, that I was also, in a way,
a certain sense, seeing the lack of Jesus
in the world, seeing the lack of Jesus
in others, seeing how I needed Him
so desperately, in the sense that, as if I didn't have Him,
or that I needed Him more. It's like there's,
I think there's a fine distinction
there between our need
and desire for Jesus, and then,
our lack of Jesus, or desperate,
like us reaching to Him to grasp onto Him, as opposed to God
coming down to us. I think now,
as a Catholic, looking back, that sacramental dimension
is so important. And I didn't have that
at the time. And so, I think,
in a way, a lot of my feelings were
trying to find that. JonMarc: So many of these
things come down to them being in right order. Certainly, God calls us
to do something. He calls us to
specific purposes. But there has to be
this proper relationship to receiving from God first,
His grace and all that, and it's interesting, too,
I was going to ask; a couple of minutes here
before the break. Did you have any sense of
Catholicism at this time? You didn't have
a whole lot of sense of the differences between
these different flavors of Christianity. Any sense of what
the Catholic Church was or...? Maija: Oh, well,
that's a funny thing, because despite
the Catholic presence that was in my personal life
with my dad, at least as historically
background for him being Catholic, or my grandmother,
same thing, I was very
anti-Catholic, and I think that that was
not intentional. I didn't go into it
wanting to be anti-Catholic. I think that that was
something that I picked up in various places
of the different theology that I was
surrounded with, in the various
campus ministries I was involved with, or the various churches
that I would go to. I didn't stay at that Pentecostal sort of
evangelical church that I started at
in high school. I bounced around a bit. I tended to go to church
where my friends were going and where we really
felt things were happening there,
so I went to a non-denominational church,
for a time. I went to a
Baptist church. I went to a
Dutch Reformed church. I attended
some Methodist services, Evangelical Free Church
of America service. I mean, I was kind of
all over the place. I didn't have the,
'I'm a Calvinist,' 'I am this,'
or 'I'm a Lutheran in this way.' I just was following where people were really
fervent. JonMarc: Sure. Well, I think
that's a good place for a little quick break
here. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: We're joined tonight
by Maija Fish, a former
Evangelical Protestant, and a good friend
of our family's. And we're having
a good discussion. So, come back here
in a few minutes. We'll hear a bit more of
her story. See you in a moment. [♪] [♪] JonMarc: Well, welcome back
to 'The Journey Home'. I'm your guest host tonight,
JonMarc Grodi. And before the break, we were hearing
Maija Fish, former Evangelical
Protestant, share her faith journey. And when we
left off, Maija, you were involved
in campus, various campus ministries during your college
experience, but the seeking
continues, right? Maija: Yeah,
the seeking continues. It is growing,
I think growing in maturity
and in faith, as I was saying,
kind of, what was lacking was
the sacraments, and I was wanting to
find a way to encounter Christ
in my life and find ways
to practice faith, and oftentimes,
in catastrophic ways. I, like I said,
when I was a high schooler, I decided one day, 'I'm only going to listen to
Christian music,' and I was upset
if anybody else had anything else
on the radio in my presence. I was really obnoxious,
silly things like that, trying to figure out
what works, what doesn't. And this, my parents,
I think, were a little concerned that I was super intense
about my faith, very involved. I'm pretty intense about a lot of things
that I do. I'm, that's sort of
my go mode. And, but something
I think that held me back
a little bit was a fear of
not being authentic, of not being truly
who I am, of being a person that people didn't want to
be around, that people avoided, those terms, 'Bible Banger,'
'Bible Thumper,' or something
come to mind, and I really had,
I think deep down, I had a concern that I didn't want to be
that person. And so, in a way, it was almost like I felt,
deep down, like I was keeping God
at arm's length. And a really important time
or event was when I was on a retreat
with Campus Crusade, at, it was in
Copper Harbor, Michigan. And I remember
sitting on a dock, at one of the inland
lakes. And it was just
a beautiful Fall day. And the colors were reflecting
on the water. And I was just having
this prayer time. And I just said,
"God, I really, I don't want to be
that kind of a person who's un-relatable
and un-likable and out of touch. And God,
I just have to trust that You are going to
lead me where You want me, and that You aren't
going to make me into
that person." And now,
that was several years before my journey into
the Church, but I think that was
a really important event, because I think God takes
those moments that we, even in
the smallest way, reach out and trust
to Him. And just, it's like opening
a flood gate. And it pours out
to us. And I don't know
that I would have even have seen it that way
at the time, but that,
I, looking back, that is the spiritual
reality. God leading us along
and pursuing us, and it's our response,
and in that response, lavishly giving Himself
to us. And I think that's,
it's also this process that's so gorgeous,
I think, of becoming. It's this,
my spiritual director, she says,
"Our not yet-ness", and I think
that's so beautiful. I was always
pursuing ways to be more
and do more, because I felt,
in a lot of ways, like I wasn't enough. And to come to
that place ultimately to see how it is God coming to us
in our brokenness, that is so beautiful. So, that's kind of how my spiritual life
was happening as college kind of
progressed towards the end, I became disillusioned
with the worldview of feeling like
I had to go out and preach the Gospel
and save people, seeing the lack of Jesus
in myself and in others, in some way. And I remember praying
after I graduated, and I was,
I had a, I graduated in
December and didn't start
dental school until August. I had this time off. And I remember just being
frustrated and being like, "God, I don't want to
change my religion, but I don't know how to
live my life, and I don't know what, how I'm supposed to
live my life and love You." And that was kind of
my prayer at the time. And the way I was
living my life at the time, I did feel kind of lost. I was sort of
looking for love in all the wrong places,
if you will, trying to see
where I fit in, various romantic
relationships that were just disasters
left and right, and trying to find
that sense of security. And it's funny,
because where I could, on one hand, have this
spiritual experience and this desire, I didn't have the maturity
in my life, living that out
in all the ways that even then
I knew I should, but I wasn't able to
actually do. So, that August,
I moved to Milwaukee. And I started dental school,
at Marquette University, which is a Catholic
university. And I remember thinking,
going to Marquette, that I should learn a bit
about Catholicism so that I can witness
to these Catholics so that they can know
Jesus, which is just
so hilarious, but that was
my perception that, my perception was
that Catholics didn't really have
a personal prayer life. They were going through
rote things. They didn't really
believe it. Maybe they just went
to church on Christmas and Easter. They worshipped Mary
or the saints, or they had all these
other things in the way, and they just really
needed to know Jesus and how awesome He was,
and yeah, that was kind of my attitude
at the time. And there was a girl in my campus ministry,
back at Northern, who had a girl
that she knew from her hometown, who was going to be
in my dental class with me, and that was from her
Assemblies of God church, and I was very excited
at the prospect that I would have another
on fire Christian with me
in my class, and we would be, I imagined we would be
great friends, and it ended up
not being that way, surprisingly,
or not surprisingly. The, so, I was really
struggling that Fall semester
of dental school, trying to figure out where to go
in my faith life, also, trying to balance being in an entirely
new city, again, similar to
my exchange year, being taken away
from those security structures
for myself. I had great friends
in my campus ministry. I had a great thing
going. I was sad to leave. And in a sense,
I felt like, start over again, and not sure in what way
to start again. And I, basically, in this struggle
that I was having, I opened up to
this girl about the difficulty
I was having. And it was really
terrible, because I sensed
her body language. She was very
uncomfortable, as I was being vulnerable
with her in opening up. And I call it
the 'Scripture Rolodex' was going in
her head. I had that perception, as I was pouring out
my heart about going to
the pub crawls with the other
dental students and meeting these guys, and just not liking the way
my life was going, but wanting to seek God
and all these things, and she would say, "Well, Maija,
the Bible says..." and then,
she would rattle off a Scripture verse, and, "Well,
the Bible says..." then, she would rattle off
another Scripture verse. And I was like,
'Oh my gosh. Is that what I do
to people? Is that what I've been
doing?' I felt very judged. And it hurt,
it really hurt. But it was also
looking in a mirror... JonMarc: Sure. Maija: ...in an unpleasant
way. But what a mercy
that that happened, because I thought,
'I never want to make someone
feel that way, ever, in my love for God, to make someone feel
not seen, or dismissed,
or judged,' that I remember hearing from
a preacher one time, "If people are uncomfortable
around you, talking about Jesus,
and sharing your faith, well, that's just
the devil in them being convicted from
the Holy Spirit in you." And I thought, 'Or it could just be you
being a jerk.' JonMarc: Right,
could be that sometimes. Maija: Could be. JonMarc: Sometimes. Maija: It could be. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: Yeah, and so,
that was really a, that was a big moment
for me. And so, that was kind of
a push. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: The pull, so, from the Catholic Church
standpoint, the pull were from
a few unexpected areas. So, when I went to
Marquette, I encountered
various people that were on fire
for Jesus, and they were Catholic. And it completely
up-ended the view that I had
of Catholicism. And it made me go, 'Oh, maybe I don't know
the Catholic Church. Maybe I don't know
what this is all about. I should learn.' One of those people was a classmate of mine,
Sharon, really lovely person. Actually, I just talked
to her on the phone today to tell her I was coming
and share with her, and to thank her
for this. She was practicing
her faith, but not really
exclusively Catholic at the time. She would go with me to some of my non-denominational
church services, but she had a rosary hanging
from her rearview mirror. And every time
we got in the car, before she would
start the car, she would hold
her rosary, and she would say
a prayer, and then,
start the car, and that was very peculiar
to me. It was like,
'What is this little ritual
you have here?' But it's little things
like that that are a witness
to people that we may not realize, just living out our faith,
genuinely as who we are, speaks volumes to people
who are truly seeking. And so, Sharon never
judged me in the struggles
I was going through at the time. She was there for me, and she was a good friend
to me. And she lived her faith
beautifully. And that was
a great witness, encountering other
students, like undergrads
on campus, they would have these
praise and worship sort of charismatic
jam sessions on campus. And I'm like,
oh my gosh. These people are Catholic. This is like
my campus ministry, except with a crucifix and some people
have rosaries. And as that progressed, I met some theology graduate
students there at Marquette, and I don't remember
how I first encountered them, but I would get together
with them on Thursdays for beer and wings,
on campus, and I would just pepper them
with questions. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: And they were great,
because they were not ever offended at probably some
ridiculous thing I might say, or ridiculous question
I would ask about, 'Why do you guys
worship Mary,' or something,
for example, because I think
you can tell a difference when someone is
truly wanting, is truly seeking
and wanting to know versus somebody looking for
an in-road to sort of spout
their opinion and preach at you. JonMarc: Well, it's that
authenticity. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: It's this
interesting thread throughout your story,
this... Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: ... being touched by
moments of authenticity, someone who's genuinely joyful
as a Christian. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: Or people
who will genuinely hear the questions
and gage them seriously. That authenticity
is such, I think it's such an
important aspect. Maija: Yeah, yeah. So, I,
in this time, too, in my beginning of
freshman year of dental school, I met my now husband,
John. JonMarc: I know that guy. Maija: Oh, what? JonMarc: He's a good guy. Maija: Yeah,
he's a great guy. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: Im it's my
favorite story to tell, which,
you're welcome, I'm not going to share
on the program, because; it's my favorite story, but I went with my friend,
Chrissy, my classmate. She lived in
the same condo building as he did, and I crashed
his housewarming party, basically,
how it ends. And, but when I met him, I learned in that
conversation that he was Catholic. And that was sort of a,
irk, 'Run away from this guy,' but we had so much
in common. He was such a beautiful
person. And I couldn't help
but be drawn to him. And that was in November. And it wasn't
until January, we finally reconnected
and went on a date. And when we started dating,
I had him come to some of my evangelical
church services. And he was very
uncomfortable. And he suggested to me, "Can we maybe try going to
Catholic Mass some time?" And I was like,
"Well, I can't..." That was really,
I don't know. But I thought, 'Well,
I have to be fair. I can't just say, we're only going to
my church, repeatedly. So, I was like, "Okay,
I'll go to Mass with you." And if it weren't
for John, So, I don't know that
I would have actually, well, who knows? Maybe somebody would have
invited me to Mass. But it was him inviting me
to Mass that I reluctantly
finally went to Mass and started going. And so, that was, those were some of
the pulls. JonMarc: Sure. Maija: It was during that time,
too, they had some events
in Milwaukee called 'Theology on Tap.' I know that that program
runs around the country. And that was great, because I met other
post-college age people that were interested in
the faith, and I got to just
learn more, ask more questions, just be present
in that way. And it was at one of those
'Theology On Tap' talks that there's a preacher,
Fr Tim, Fr Tim Kitzke,
from Milwaukee. He was giving a talk,
and he said, "Who here thinks
that without Jesus, you're just a pile
of dung?" And I was like,
"Oh, me. Without Jesus,
I'm nothing. I'm just, 'Yeah,
that's me all over.' Without Jesus,
I'm terrible." And I'm looking
around, and it's me
and one other girl that are raising
our hands, and apparently, she was also
an evangelical, and nobody else is raising
their hand, so that was
a little awkward. And Fr Tim goes,
"God doesn't make crap!" And he said,
"God doesn't make crap, and then, just somehow cover us over
with His grace, and then,
expect us to pick ourselves up
by our bootstraps, and go be
super Christians." And it was like,
oh my gosh, it was like this weight
lifted off. And I realize,
because that is sort of how I was operating,
that I felt this burden to somehow do great things
for God. And yet, deep down, I didn't feel good
about me. And if I didn't feel good
about me, how is it that
I'm supposed to be...? It's like,
if you can't love you, how are you supposed to
love others kind of thing? JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: And, yeah, I mean,
that was really big, I think it was in,
that was sort of the first
introduction I had into this concept of the,
of God making us good, that we're intended
to be good, that God looks at us
with love, not looks at us
as like, 'If you were just
not so messed up,' or 'Oh, I had to
come to...' this sort of transactional
view of salvation. JonMarc: He loved us
before He redeemed us. Maija: Yes. JonMarc: Yes. Maija: Yes. It's sort of like,
not in spite of. JonMarc: Yeah, yeah. Maija: And... JonMarc: Well, also, not
waiting around for Him, too. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: It's interesting,
it's so interesting, because there's some
nuances of theology played out in
your experience. You mentioned early on that you had this
anti-Catholic sense of that, which is, I think,
a common sentiment that Catholics have Jesus
plus, they have Jesus,
plus all this stuff. Maija: Because Jesus
isn't enough. JonMarc: And plus,
all the stuff that you have to do. But what's sort of
interesting is, without the stuff,
properly understood, without the teaching,
without the right doctrine, but we do end up as people
who are trying to fill it, but fill it with
ourselves, with my right action,
enough activity, enough striving,
enough grasping so that I can be
acceptable. Maija: Right. JonMarc: Whereas, you were
kind of, but you were coming to
this place of seeing it more
as a gift, seeing what God wants to
give. It's interesting. Maija: Yeah, and isn't it
funny where, JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: ...that accusation of
Catholics have to work their way
to Heaven? But in my experience,
the reality was that, it was actually
turned on its head. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. JonMarc: That's very, very
interesting. Maija: Yeah. And so, I...
Through that process... So, I would continually
go to these 'Theology on Tap'
meetings. I felt like a sponge. I just wanted to know
more and more. And was asking
so many questions. And John and I
had been dating for, it was over a year, and he left to go to
Cleveland for his Fellowship training. And so, we were at
a long distance. And I would still go to
the cathedral, in Milwaukee,
to go to Mass, and I joined RCIA there, not with the intention of
converting, but rather,
with the intention to just have
an opportunity, in a structured environment, to know more
and ask more questions and learn more. And it was during
that process that I came to the point where I realized
I want to be Catholic. This is where I want to
build this, I, not say I,
where I see that God is, the, where, instead of that church
of Maija, it was where God
was leading me. One word I didn't use yet
in the conversation is 'authority,'
that question of authority. The Church,
I had picked up a few times
in my past. I remember tuning into EWTN
when I was in high school, and seeing Mother Angelica
on there, like, 'Who is this lady?' And I think it might have been
Johnette Benkovic-Williams, saying something
to the effect of, "Oh, we have
the fullness of the truth." And I remember thinking,
'Where does she get off? That is so arrogant.' And the funny thing is, is, as my experience
progressed, I saw that that wasn't
arrogant. It was actually a beautiful,
this claim of authority that no one else was making,
truly, and didn't have anything
to back it up, even if they tried. The Catholic Church did, even if it made me
uncomfortable at first. The more that people in my life
that I was encountering, showed the beauty of that
to me. And so, it was no longer this threatening, arrogant
imposition, but rather, this beautiful,
beautiful foundation to build my life,
to rest my head, to not feel like
I had a burden, to figure it all out. And that doesn't mean
that I was checking my brain
at the door. JonMarc: Sure. Maija: That I was free to
ask questions, in fact, questions are
encouraged, and you should
think about it, and you should make it
yours, but I don't have to
reinvent the wheel. I, there are people
for 2,000 years that have devoted
their entire lives to answering
these questions that will know more about it
than I ever will, so I could have a peace
that, even if I didn't understand
these things now, that there will
come a place where I could
understand them in the future. So, questions like Mary,
the saints, those things that I think
a lot of people found scary or is putting off for them
for the Church. Those were really obstacles
for me. They also weren't, in my perception
at the time, reasons to become
Catholic. They were sort of like
the ANDS, sort of like
the optional add-ons. And I was like,
"Well, yeah, okay. That doesn't really make
a lot of sense to me. It doesn't mean a lot to me
right now, but I can figure that out
later, and it's not essential." So, those weren't
really, I didn't feel those were
in the way for me. It was really
that authority question was a big one. And then, that wanting to
feel authentic and feel I had a place
in my faith life in how to live my life. JonMarc: When our questions
meet that place of
authority, a place we can
really go and know that the questions
are taken seriously, and that they're met with
this 200-year history of the deposit of faith,
as we call it, which is the Holy Spirit guiding a thousand
conversations, a million questions
over the last 2,000 years, and that we're the heirs
of that question process. And then, that's what allows
that authenticity. We don't have to set aside
those questions. We can bring them to
Mother Church. What would you say
clinched it for you? Was there an issue
or an aspect of authority? What clenched it that you needed to become
Catholic? Maija: Well, I think
it was kind of a lot of those things
being set up that... I think it was really God
pursuing me. It was, like I said,
how, when I was on that dock,
in college, at that Campus Crusade
retreat where I said, "God, I want to just
trust You that You're going to
lead me where You want me
to be." And when I was coming into
the Church, I saw that it had the,
that's where God was. I just, it wasn't just
a feeling of His Presence. It was truly an experience
of His Presence. It was the also intellectual
aspect of His Presence. It wasn't things that were
just explained away. It wasn't,
it sort of, it's not the either/or,
it's the both/and. It's like, oh, wait,
there's more. And if that's
not enough, you can find
these other venues. I found that it was
so expansive that I was confident that there was a place
for me. JonMarc: Well, talk about
the sacraments, because it seems like
that was something that you were looking for, in a certain sense,
all your life, because we, in the sacraments,
we have... Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: ...God coming to us
in this very specific way. Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: Yeah. Maija: That divine
intimacy... JonMarc: Yes. Maija: ... that I
so longed for, so longed for, and I think I still long
for today. And that's the beauty
of the sacrament, so yeah. And you know
what's funny is, I don't know that I had
an appreciation for the sacraments even when I first became
Catholic. JonMarc: Sure. Maija: So, I've been
a Catholic now for coming on 14 years. So, Easter vigil, 2007. And continually
following Christ on this journey and seeing how He
offers Himself to me so beautifully. Any little time that I have
let my guard down and reached out
in trust to Him, He's returned so much
with His Presence, more so than anything
I could have tried to accomplish on my own, or tried to emotionally
maintain an intensity
from my own energy and my own stars
and my own resolve. That's something
so beautiful. It speaks to
the reality of our lives. We're messy. And instead of
fighting that and in trying to
fix myself; it's receiving that
from Him so much. St Thérèse of Lisieux,
I think is so beautiful in that regard, in some of her ways
she talks about this. It's like her littleness
and so forth. But I look at, for me,
as my weakness and brokenness,
my not-yet-ness. And instead of
being discouraged, seeing how much
God loves me, and just letting Him
come into where I am now, instead of being like, "God, I'm trying to get there
where You want me to be." And instead, He's like,
"Just abide in Me. Just be with Me. I'm here with you now. Rest in Me." JonMarc: Well, we just have
about a few minutes left. But I want to make sure
that we take a few minutes to bridge the gap
a little bit. So, that was... Maija: Yeah. JonMarc: ... 2007. We're now 2021. And our families,
we have young families, a bunch of little kids
running around. And so, in terms of
that littleness, that brokenness, in terms of
your lived experience now, looking back on
your ongoing journey, what are some ways,
that you've seen since then that God is entering to
that littleness that you're
inviting Him in? Maija: Oh, it's,
it's so beautiful. It's like,
it's a cliché, "God writes straight
with crooked lines," but it is so true
that... JonMarc: It's a cliché
for a reason. Maija: Yes, it's a cliché
for a reason. So, all the beautiful, lovely things I have
in my life are purely gift. They're not things
that I went and achieved
and earned for myself. They're just mercy. My beautiful children, my husband, who is just
such a good person, is such a loving person,
who loves me so well, who loves others
so well, to have the opportunity
to get to come and share
my story, and hoping that, any,
someone hears this that maybe is going through
a difficult time or feeling like
they need to take all these talents
and gifts that they have and go do
something great. It's God that is
calling us to Himself, and it's God Who gives
the growth, and having joy in what God has
blessed me with. So, it's,
if anything, I can smile
at my brokenness instead of cry about it
now. JonMarc: Yeah, well, you already began
to do this, but with just about
a minute left here, again, someone from
a similar background, particularly those
out there, I think,
of our generations, there are many of
these people who are really seeking with
questions, and they're seeking
authenticity. Can you give them
a word of encouragement in terms of
their seeking? Maija: Trust in God. Don't be discouraged. Know that He is with you. There's a prayer from Opus Dei
that I love. And I'll sometimes say it
during the day. And they say,
"My Lord and my God, I firmly believe
that You are here, that You see me
and that You hear me. I adore You
with profound reverence. I ask Your pardon
for my sin and for the grace
to make this time of prayer fruitful." And recognizing
that God is there with us in this moment
and is offering us the, everything we have
to be happy in Him in that moment, if we have the eyes
to be willing to see it. JonMarc: Well, that was
beautiful. Thank you so much,
Maija. Maija: Thank you. JonMarc: Thank you
for joining us and sharing your story. And thank you for joining us,
once again, [♪] for another wonderful story of what the Lord does
when we turn to Him. This is a show about
conversion. And we talk about conversion
of the Church. But throughout
these stories, there's these moments
of turning toward God. And that's our
daily bread. That's our daily task. Just turn a little bit
more in the direction
of the Lord and be open to
what He wants to give us. So, once again, thank you for joining us
for this program. Thank you to EWTN
for this opportunity to share these stories
with you. We hope you're blessed
by them. Please keep us
in your prayers. And we'll see you again
next time. God bless. [♪]
