Side B Christianity and the Revoice Conference, with Christopher Yuan

i i don't know if that's a good place to find unity again let's find our unity in christ in his holiness in his perfection not on well just this one part is sin but a lot of people are actually giving in to other parts that are sin and then we're okaying it by saying we need to be united [Music] welcome to the alisa childers podcast have you been hearing about all the controversy surrounding side a christianity and side b christianity and also the re-voice conference so if you're unfamiliar with all that's going on we're going to bring you up to speed to discuss a biblical view of sexuality with a special guest today christopher yuan and what it might look like for a christian who experiences same-sex attraction to faithfully follow jesus but before we get to that i want to invite you to subscribe to the youtube channel and click that bell icon to be notified every time we release a new video because we have some really great stuff coming up next time next week we're going to be talking with rosaria butterfield continuing our little mini-series here on biblical sexuality we're going to be talking about identity and how christians should understand themselves in light of scripture and maybe not so much in light of people like freud or darwin so that's going to be a fascinating conversation we've got a couple of book reviews coming up i'm going to be reviewing the making of biblical womanhood with diana williams from southern evangelical seminary who's been on the podcast before to talk about christianity and feminism we're also going to review jesus and john wayne with anne kennedy also a former guest of the podcast who actually wrote a review of jesus and john wayne for the christian research institute so we're going to be bringing you our thoughts on those books coming up so definitely subscribe if you're listening on audio platforms if you leave a good review and share these posts it really helps get the word out to more people a couple other things coming up we have the another gospel participants guide six sessions on the search for truth in response to the claims of progressive christianity coming out along with a video curriculum the pre-order for that is up on amazon now already guys the video for this is amazing uh they rented out a beautiful coffee shop jay werner wallace joined me and john mcrae from the what do you mean podcast joined me to discuss the claims of progressive christianity to give your small groups at church a six-week curriculum to walk through together as you read through the book another gospel so again go to amazon and you can take a look at that pre-order link it's called another gospel participant's guide six sessions on the search for truth in response to the claims of progressive christianity and now i want to get to my guest today christopher yuan graduated from moody bible institute in 2005. he has a master's in biblical exegesis doctor of ministry he got uh that in 2014. uh he taught the bible at moody institute for 12 years and his speaking ministry on faith and sexuality has reached five continents he's written some really great books that i recommend to you he's been on the podcast before to talk about them one is called out of a far country a gay son's journey to god a broken mother's search for hope and also holy sexuality and the gospel sex desire and relationships shaped by god's grand story so christopher thank you so much for joining me today i'm so thrilled to have you back on the podcast video this time you were on is just when it was audio before yeah good to be on with you elisa it's uh just really appreciate you and your in your voice well likewise and for anyone who may not be familiar with you just orient us a little bit with your story how did you come to faith in jesus yeah i wasn't raised in a christian home wrestled with my sexuality from a young age my parents aren't christian and uh they raised me very traditional asian values i came out of the closet in my early 20s which i think is a little bit older than uh you know kind of the average today which is usually you know teens or even before that i came out through that crisis my mom came to faith and then my father did as well i won the total of the opposite direction i'm originally from chicago i moved to louisville kentucky i was there was pursuing my daughter into dentistry came out um my parents came to faith i went the opposite direction it was then in um in louisville while i was in graduate school that i was actually i kind of was living in the world i was doing what all my other friends were doing which was have fun party i started experimenting with drugs also selling drugs eventually i was expelled from double school just three months before i was receiving my doctorate so i moved from louisville to atlanta kept doing what i knew how to do best and i need to always pause here like i'm not at all sometimes people think i'm telling everyone's story this is just my story not all gay men do drugs um regrettably it is part of my story so in atlanta i was partying doing drugs i began not just selling drugs but supplying drugs to dealers in over a dozen states and this whole time my parents had no clue that i was doing drugs but they knew my biggest need was to know jesus christ as my lord and savior and they tried to reach out to the love of christ and i wanted nothing to do with it they came to visit me one time and i told him to get out before my dad left he gave me his bible and i'm told like i don't want your bible left in my kitchen counter anyway walked out the door i took my dad's bible and i threw in the trash i just wanted nothing to do with god it was just obvious my parents that i was just hopeless but they committed not to focus upon hopelessness but upon the promises of god my mom prayed for every monday for seven years and once fasted 39 days just for a miracle and this miracle came with a bang on my door open up my door on my doorstep 12 federal drug enforcement agents atlanta police two big german shepherd dogs i found myself in jail and a few days after that i was walking around the cell block and i passed by this garbage can but something on top of the trash caught my eye picked it up it was a gideon's new testament took it back to my cell and i began reading it not thinking man you know this is the answer i just thought i've got tons of time on my hands better pass it somehow but as we know it's the word of god that is like a double-edged sword began to convict me of my sins and then i got worst news i was called to the nurse's office and i got the news that i was hiv positive i was in my cell a few days after that and i look up at the cold metal bunk above me and someone scribbled something and it read if you're bored read jeremiah 29 11 for i know the plans that i have for you plans to prosper you not to harm your plans to give you hope and a future and god used those words pen to a prophet thousands of years ago to tell me that if god could have a plan for israel in rebellion in exile he could have a plan for me i don't know what that plan was going to take me he gave me enough faith enough strength to get through that one day and the next and god was convicting my idols obviously drugs but he delivered me from that addiction but you know alisa there was just one thing that i felt like i just couldn't let go of my sexuality went to a chaplain asked him his opinion and he told me the bible doesn't condem homosexuality he gave me a book and i'm like great now i can have my cake and eat it too i had that book in one hand the bible in the other and from a purely human perspective i had every reason in the world to accept what that book is claiming to justify the way i had been living but it was god's indwelling holy spirit that convicted me that those assertions were a clear distortion of god in his word i couldn't even finish that book gave it back to the chaplain and i turned to the bible alone went through every verse every chapter looking for justification i couldn't find any so i was at this turning point and i either abandoned god in his word lives a gay man a monogamous same sex relationship by allowing my attractions to dictate not only who i was but also how i lived or abandoned pursuing a monogamous same-sex relationship by freeing myself from my sexuality and live as a follower of jesus christ by god's grace i followed jesus the days and the weeks and the months of abstinence passed and i realized that my sexuality should not be the core of who i am i told myself before god loves me unconditionally that's true but don't we as singers like to add to god truth i added so therefore he doesn't want me to change similar to your friends who say god loves me just the way i am so leave me alone but after reading the bible i learned that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval of my behavior my identity should not be defined by my sexuality my condition will be grounded in my desires my identity is not gay it's not ex-gay it's not even heterosexual for that matter because my identity as a child of the living god must be in jesus christ alone god says be holy for i am holy you know i thought that if i were to become a christian i had to become heterosexual what does that mean i need to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex and i even thought the more sexually attracted i were lots and lots of women the more of a christian man i would be yeah but i realized that even if i had opposite sex attractions i would still need to flee temptation and resist sin so i realize that the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality that's not the goal but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness as a matter of fact the opposite of every sin is holiness i don't need to focus upon whether i'm struggling or tempted i just need to focus upon living a life of holiness and living a life of purity because change is not the absence of temptations but change is a spirit rod ability to be holy even in the midst of temptations so i began to live this life of surrender and obedience in prison and god called me to ministry in prison i applied to bible college in prison got accepted and then went on to get my masters and then later doctored and then i had the really cool privilege of co-authoring a book with my mom out of a far country and then my newest book holy sexuality of the gospel as well and i've read both and they are tremendous just uh wonderful books that i highly recommend to everybody i actually recommend out of a far country to people all the time i have a lot of parents come up to me in conferences and they're concerned about their children and it may not even be in the area of sexuality it just might be my my adult child is deconstructing they don't believe in christianity anymore they don't believe in the core tenets of the gospel anymore and i just feel helpless i don't know what to do and i say read out of a far country because you're going to watch the story of a praying mother who loved her son in you know prayed for him and fasted for him and so i've i think that book has even a greater application than to just your immediate story because i do recommend it in those situations all the time you know i often remind people um that my testimony is not really about a man who used to identify as gay and now no longer does but this is my testimony i once was lost and now i'm found i once was blind and now i see i once did not believe and now i believe in the lord jesus christ that's my testimony and so you're right i i'd like to think of our testimony just not yes it touches specifically on sexuality but it's an awesome god who does the impossible and he saves sinners amen well this is a good start gives us a good foundation to get into our discussion today because i started to see a lot of stuff online and i saw side a christianity side b christianity and then some controversy around this conference called revoice and honestly christopher i didn't really know that much about all of these different terms and how that all played together and then recently i saw a discussion that you and rosaria butterfield did with beckett cook and it really clarified things for me and i thought i really want to bring this discussion to my audience because i want them to understand what's going on and why it really matters what we think about these things even as christians and so would you just start us off by helping us to understand what those terms mean what is side a christianity versus side b christianity yeah great question elisa um so i'm just going to do a little bit of just recent history lesson just to kind of bring us to to where we came up with these terms side a side b some people like i never heard that before maybe you've heard the term just a gay christian or a gay celibate christian kind of disdistinguished uh so doing some history if we go about 10 years ago there used to be an organization um or a little bit less than that called exodus it was kind of the main christian organization that addressed this issue of same-sex attractions but they used more of a developmental framework that this is because of things in your childhood and so you need to kind of just mature into heterosexuality or pursue as dr nikolosi says your heterosexual potential well that's fraught with problems um not so much the way that the world is trying to make it illegal that's incorrect and i and that's wrong but that's more from a i don't want to be like communist china i don't want to be you know uh you know run by a government that's telling us everything that what we can or cannot do because that's you know that's hugely problematic uh but the problem that is that it's not biblical in that heterosexuality is not the correct goal it's too broad my issue is not that heterosexuality is fully wrong it's just not fully right because marriage is one form of heterosexual relationship but not representative of all the other ones because all the other ones are sinful so the problem with that is it was also kind of um inadvertently sometimes either directly or indirectly promising that if you just go through these steps if you go through the group so if you go through the one-on-one psychotherapy uh you can be set free from same-sex attractions and actually then have opposite sexual attraction so essentially it was saying um you don't need jesus you don't need the gospel what you need is you need a support group and you need a counselor to to help you with your sin that's the biggest problem it's understanding it's having the correct diagnosis the problem is not a freudian developmental theory category that you know this is not something in your childhood that's totally freud um but the correct diagnosis is this is sin and if sin is a problem then we know what is the correct treatment it's christ and the correct context for sanctification and uh and salvation is actually the body of christ so the christian organization didn't focus on that and it was pulling people outside of the church and pulling away from people from christ as the answer and more into support groups and psychotherapy as the answer so that a reaction to this was a group called the gay christian network founded by justin lee west hill ron belgau now they didn't agree on everything because justin lee believed that god blesses same-sex marriage wesley hill and just and ron belgau they believe that no same-sex marriage is wrong it's sin uh but uh or the same-sex sex is sin uh but but i just am gay because i tried exodus and i can never change so this is just who i am so where they both agree so this is you know people talk about unity well how far we're going to take with unity because side when you talk about side a side when we talk about side b gay christians and and they're talking about elisa you and me we need to be like united around these people that are side b because they're trying so hard to say no to their sin and so we need to unite with them well the problem is side b actually finds unity with side a i mean that's that's their history um so these people that are living in in very blatant sin and actually celebrating sin and telling people that same-sex marriage is okay and i would i really question personally whether they are christian or not because the holy spirit is supposed to do his job to convict people of sin and they're not convicting them of sin so that's why in in any situation with any other person if a person is in continuous unrepentant sin and they say they're christian i don't see the fruit of repentance the good fruit of repentance and so that's when i say i i really hope that they will be saved in the future and put their faith in christ but right now if they're unrepented sin then i there's dissonance and the bible tells us how to treat these people um so then they created this organization gay christian network but they were they were united around the fact that they were both gay they can't change and they were christian that's how they were united around but they disagreed on whether same-sex sex was sinful or not and so then they said okay well we're both great christians but then now you have side a gay christians and then you have side b side b gay christians side a believe that god blesses same-sex marriage um but then side b gay christians say the sex is wrong um and then we just have to grit and bear it and be celibate for the rest of my life so lifelong celibacy they call so the confusion sometimes is and i've been asked this many times it's a your site b right no i'm not side b because side b is actually you know it's it's often times called you know what well we hold to the you know traditional view of sexuality i don't um because the biblical view of sexuality is that sex is reserved for marriage and that means not only the sex but the desires and everything in between because matthew 5 sermon on the mount jesus says if a man looks lustfully after woman then he's committed in his heart he's already committed adultery so that means that the act if the act is wrong then the desire for that act is wrong and everything in between so it's not just the the act of sex that's wrong uh but it's also uh the desires that i have and also not to say that we're tempted now tempted that's a whole other issue because temptation in and of itself is not actual sin but it can quickly lead us in but anyway maybe i'm getting a little ahead of myself but this is kind of the history the side a side b is is a response it's reactionary to the past organization called exodus and these people uh who were united around this that said i am gay i can't change this is who i am but um i can either like side a b pursue a monogamous same sex relationship or side b say i cannot pursue a monogamous same-sex relationship but i just am gay and this is who i am so it sounds like both side a and side b are embracing the identity of lgbtq as a as a real identity about who they are is that is that fair to say yes yeah definitely and there's a lot of discussion as as we spoke before about you know the use of the term identity is that an appropriate term is it um is it something that that is in the world etc and yes i mean we're living in a world you know it's that that fine line of being in the world but not of the world and so we need to use language which is also part of this world and identity is it is a little bit nebulous concept but i think it's important for us to address especially when we're talking about sexual identity and gender identity so this is not at all a word that we're making up or that christians are trying to kind of demonize or or create some type of false concept this really is something of the world um where sexuality is not anymore the world does the world the world does not anymore view sexuality as what you feel and what you do the world views sexuality as who you are so to identi you know to define identity i'm talking about uh what is our essence what is the core of our being uh what is you know what is personhood and if just real simply how do we answer the question who am i because if sexuality really was what i felt well i would say well i have these desires um i desire this i feel this i'm attracted to this um but sexuality even side b they they will usually use the terminology this is who i am and rosario butterfield says it so well she says this shift from what meaning what i feel what i do to who has created this radically distorted view of personhood yeah okay that's really clarifying and helpful because i remember when i first started seeing this whole idea of side b popping up you know i took a cursory look at it i was like well this is good i mean i don't like that they're using the qualifier in front of christian i don't really like any qualifier in front of christian but you know they're they're trying to live faithfully and and so it seemed like it was kind of okay in the beginning but i'm realize i learned more about it and we're going to get into some of these details um this is why people like you and rosaria are warning about this and we're going to get into that but let's talk first about the revoice conference so what is the conference what's the controversy surrounding it and what you know what's involved with revoice as it would relate with side a and side b yeah so let me do a little bit more history and bring us up to speed so i saw there was a reaction to exodus created this uh this network and it was a conference and and like an online network of people that were they were all gay but they just agreed to disagree you know again this whole unity thing you know i i'm sometimes it's usually the people that are screaming unity that are moving away from the gospel um yes we are to be united but the emphasis is not united me and you at least the emphasis is that we're united to christ alone and so when we emphasize too much we need to just be unity uh you know that's that's focusing more on each other and i'm sorry but elisa don't follow me because i can lead you astray i'm a sinner and we both need to follow jesus follow christ follow god his word uh so so what happened with the gay christian network they were actually having meetings and conferences well i mean think about it if if my biggest struggle was alcohol and i was just hanging out with people that were just drinking all the time that's not healthy with this conference was maybe 80 of the side a and maybe 20 side b i mean i that's maybe a little guess because i've never been to these conferences but i definitely know that the side b was a smaller minority so these people that were side b were like we're going to these conferences and these people you know what they're doing is they're coming together and they're looking for a lifelong a life partner that same sex and that's not healthy for me and i want to be like well yeah and um and so they then kind of created their own subgroup and they sort of pulled away from this gay christian network and they created a group called spiritual friendship spiritual friendship for years has been going on and west hill ron belgauer they're the main creators of this um i know both of them really great um winsome uh nice compassionate and both of them are so gentle if you ever knew them they're like i don't think they would ever heard of flea just really great and wes is a a writer and um a theologian a really bright i went to durham to get his phd i just would differ and i think that's okay it doesn't mean that i don't think they're my friend i don't think that you know that they're the wicked hateful people i just think that they don't get this right and what's the big deal um well let me finish a little bit so spiritual friendship is from this concept uh that's from about 11th century cistercian monk that um believe i mean when you're a monk you're living by yourself you know you're not with people and so he believed that monks needed to actually form what the he called in latin spiritual friendship um so that i think has taken a little bit out of context we're no longer monks um that are hermit and isolated from the world we are in the world and um and and essentially a spiritual friendship is a lifelong covenanted relationship between two people of the same sex sounds innocuous right but if you think about it it's essentially marriage without the sex it's same-sex marriage without the sex it's a it's a relationship between two people that they they make and i actually know of people who have made these lifelong covenant it's it's it's a ceremony um of two men or two women and they covenant together they live together they own property together it's from every any other situation it's a same-sex marriage they just don't have the sex seems innocuous again right because sex same success is sin i'm glad that that we can at least agree to that that that's a sin but then to say that that's the biblical view of sexuality is actually not correct it seems impossible too doesn't it seem a bit impossible if we're going to just be pragmatic and anecdotal i think it would be miserable i mean i couldn't imagine if there was a man that i loved and i was living with him and were had every and i could i loved him romantically loved him but i couldn't touch him or if that would be miserable that would just be so hard so i just don't see how that would be actually good or fun or anything like that um so i think that's the big distinction you know i say in my testimony that the opposite of homosexuality is holiness and i've had people side b that have really pushed back very hard uh you know ron belgan west hill they said i wish you wouldn't say that and the reason is because they do not believe that every aspect of their same sex attractions or their sexuality related to same sex uh must be mortified that is where we disagree um every aspect that i have that is sexual and romantic and desire behavior is something that i need to mortify including my temptation i need to mortify that i need to resist that and this is where side b we would disagree disagree and as a matter of fact wes west hill would even say that there are aspects of he would say being gay i think that just that phrase is wrought with so many problems but he would say being gay is good and sanctifiable and that is that really is the big difference uh where it's taking you know same-sex romantic relationships or aka known as spiritual friendships um are actually good and we need to celebrate that and encourage that i can't do that because i can never promote sin i could never encourage a sinful relationship um so i think that's really the key you know is it people you know aren't we just arguing over terminology it's not over terminology are we actually pointing people to sin uh though people might say that the action is wrong but then everything else is okay that i don't know any sin where that is the issue where just don't act on it but you can you can say you know if i'm married you know just don't act on it but it's okay for me to romanticize about my best friend's wife it's okay to it's okay for me to have like this lifelong covenanted um real friendship with my with my best friend's wife like like we'll have even a ceremony i know people who even and this is on facebook well they'll actually have friend anniversaries or whatever they call it you know so they'll actually have an anniversary um and sometimes it's maybe not between two men of the s who are same-sex attracted but it's one is who is same-sex and might by the opposite sexy attracted and he's married and i just i'm i'm i don't know what that wife is thinking it's not it's not appropriate it's not um uh god honoring it's not honoring of uh a biblical marriage it's foreign to scripture it is foreign to scripture and friendship is never meant to replace marriage um so i think a lot of kind of side b um is relying not on scripture but on uh roman catholic church history for example spiritual friendship you will not find it anywhere in scripture you'll find that in church history even the term celibacy you will not find it anywhere in scripture it's a latin word it's from a latin root and even so interesting you won't even find the the word uh calabatus the latin root of celibacy in the latin vulgate we only find it in medieval roman catholic church history which as we know you know solar scriptura not based on our traditions um so you know i think it's helping to think things through biblically so spiritual friendship that's how that formed but they were just an online group um and kind of gaining more and more momentum and then about three or four years ago uh re-voice they they're like you know what we need to actually have a conference like let's meet together and we need to have community and stuff i mean community is great i think although i can add i'm not convinced that what i need most are to get people together who are all struggling with the same sin and pull us together i just don't find where that is really helpful uh that that's where we're finding our main community and yet that's what we're finding in many big cities that you know side b gay christians they're all all rooming together they're forming these communes together and yet you know not that all failed but i know many instances where that does because what we need most is not more spiritual friendships but we need more of is spiritual family we need more of the body of christ we need more of christ and the body of christ so about three or four years ago nate collins um was my classmate at moody i i did not know anything about his story before he knew about mine uh he experienced the same such attractions uh went through a period where he was very much involved with exodus and he was you know kind of a big advocate for reparative therapy and when i reconnected with him it was right around the time that exit is closed and i remember having to some discussions with him about about why reparative therapy is not actually the correct goal and he was we were debating back and forth and he he still believed that um reparative therapy and counseling and stuff like that was really helpful for him but then he did like this huge turn when exit is closed and then he went from kind of the xk framework to more of a uh a aside be a gay celibate framework where now he is now very comfortable with saying he's a gay christian uh he would even say he he is in a mixed orientation marriage we can talk about that more again why would you be listing not only you know a sin struggle to your you know who you are in christ but why would you link that to your marriage like you know i know many men and christian men who struggle with porn why would you say you know i'm a porn addict you know yeah marriage or something yeah right yeah so um it's that's the thing it's not naming what it really is that it's something related to our sin nature but re-voice um was kind of taking spiritual friendship and and i think that spiritual friendship the tone was actually uh more tempered um and and kind of uh some of the articles a lot i didn't agree with but it still was um kind of dealing with things and and holding to kind of more uh more in line with kind of bible-believing christianity uh but real voice took this kind of more sharper turn and not only was using terminology like lgbtq plus christians queer christians you know queer framework core theology but then also using a more uh seeing everything through the lens of oppressor and victim and so a lot of what you hear in many of their talks is we've been marginalized we've been you know suppressed and oppressed and the churches have been kicking us out and they have been not but you know but all these stories you know i've been you know uh my elder boy had to meet with me and all about you know all these things you know uh the church has treated me so bad and and uh now i find community you know here and we're the victims and so that's a little you know it's it's kind of the the way that the world is now viewing everything through the lens of oppression of course we should deal with the issue of oppression but then it lacks this the most important thing that sets christianity apart is that there is hope even in the midst of difficulties even in the midst of oppression and that we are not victims but we are in christ victors so re-voice is kind of this conference that that elevates all these ideas and concepts that's again you know people say well these are people that are trying so hard um you know to to late faithful to lead to god but what they don't realize is that although they might not call the act of same-sex sex sin but they're not calling all the other things sin nor do they call it things that we need to be mortified there are things that need to be celebrated they say so that's the distinction it really is over what is not just the act of sin but what our sinful desires and and what our sinful relationships okay are there so many different directions i want to go right now but i want i want to ask you a clarifying question just so that nobody misunderstands you when you say celibacy isn't found in the bible uh what are you saying what what do you recommend we think in terms rather than using that category how do you propose we think about sexual purity yeah elisa this is so funny because you know i've been kind of speaking for the past 20 years and even before that before i was a christian there was a lot of terms that uh maybe i used then that i wouldn't that people in the gay movie wouldn't use now there were a lot of terms that are used now that i definitely they weren't even around back then so but even in my time as a christian i've i've also realized i i need to be careful i i'm very i want to always be careful with my words words matter words have meaning and i would say maybe 20 years ago or even 10 or 15 years ago celibacy and chastity were kind of like they were synonymous um but more and more we're hearing about you know kind of just the roman catholic priesthood and all the you know turmoil around that with the abuse and how celibacy is often linked with the priesthood and sort of i'm almost like i'd like to sort of avoid that that baggage but um the discussion about celibacy not just as the condition of being unmarried the state of being unmarried but celibacy has become this lifelong chosen vocation this calling and that that concept of um because yes i know just because a word isn't found in the bible doesn't mean then we shouldn't use it trinity isn't found but the word bible isn't the uniform of the bible the concept is so is the concept of celibacy a lifelong chosen vocation found in scripture i wrote my book and i did a whole study on celibacy and i found out that it is not found in scripture sometimes people will point to first within seven about this calling in the middle of the chapter but if you look closely what paul is talking about there is you know when he says what were you called uh when you were slave or whatever free you know what were you called uh uh no i'm sorry what were you when you were called and um so what paul is talking about is like what what state were you you know when you were called that calling is the call of salvation so in other words if you were slave when you were called to salvation um then that's okay i mean it don't don't seek you know you don't have to try so hard you know same thing you know if you were not circumcised don't don't change that and and what paul's point is our call of salvation makes almost everything secondary almost everything nearly insignificant however then he gives a little caveat now if you uh if you're you know if you have the opportunity to to be free then go for it but don't make it like you're you're in a sense kind of idle i'm i'm adding that but don't make it so you're so obsessed with this that's what that's calling about talking about there but other than that there really isn't i mean you have the the passage you know that's talking about the eunuch you know you're born munich etc i mean that's a little bit enigmatic but even there there's nothing about a calling especially you know a lifelong i mean it's what i think jesus is talking about there is that actually you know singleness some people you know it's chosen or some sometimes it's not chosen that you're single and that's okay so i think unfortunately today around the issue of sexuality uh the conversation around celibacy as this lifelong chosen vocation has completely overshadowed the more important conversation about just being single because it almost seems like singleness it's almost like limiting god in a sense that if you come out of let's say a gay lifestyle and then you say i'm going to be this i'm going to be celibate lifelong then that's almost inadvertently accepting that identity of gay rather than saying look i'm going to just i'm going to be open to what the lord does in my heart and i'm going to be open to what he calls me to whether that's marriage or would you agree that oh 100 so you know because i think people say well i've tried to change and i can't change well how do you know what tomorrow may bring i mean just because you've in the past 20 years even there was no change in that that does not mean then then you you know that god couldn't do something now i i understand where people are reacting to the past where it was you know the past uh kind of the ex-gay framework that to to to show evidence of healing and deliverance uh you get married and you have children and that was then kind of we held you up as the model of healing and change so i get how that is wrong so we can say this is not normative but it's possible you know like if if someone had cancer do we pray for healing of course we do does that mean that god's gonna guarantee it no but is it possible yes in the same way for myself i'm 52 years old um i'm single i don't say that i'm celibate because i don't know what tomorrow may bring i'm not making a lifelong vow of of celibacy simply because you know well i hope my whole past i've never had any change or whatever which is i would i would not say that's true there has been change uh but the ultimate thing that we need to focus on is i still have a sin nature you know people ask do you still have same such attractions i step back and i say well are christians are they devoid of temptation what their when they become to come to come to christ and the answer is all christians will be tempted on this side of glory so though i may be tempted you know with this particular uh nature you know matter of my sin nature i'm tempted with actually other sins as well that i need to daily say no to uh so but so this reality of of celibacy i think it's just a healthier way to think about it it's just the state of singleness the whole chapter of first corinthians seven paul uses the greek word gamas means married and when you put an a in front of a greek word it's kind of like negating it so it's unmarried so simply just the state of not being married and and that's what i could i i'm just i'm not married yet but i'm open um if the lord if it is god's will i'm open to him providing for me a godly wife um and uh so you know my book lays out what god calls for all of humanity and i call it holy sexuality chastity and singleness or faithfulness in marriage uh and this you know is something that all of us need to pursue that we that god lays out for us and it's uh and i call it two paths that it's not by choice like for example singleness it's not a choice i mean no one was born married so we're all born single that's just the way we are even if we read uh what jesus writes in matthew 22 we will all be single in eternity there's no marriage in heaven and even marriage i think it's much healthier to think about marriage not as a choice that's too much pressure you know our young adults am i making the right choice that's a lot of pressure on someone's shoulders i liked it and i encouraged my students when i was teaching at moody bridal institute to not think about marriage as a choice but think about it as god's will is this god's will because when we think about it as god's will that means i need to seek godly counsel i need to talk to my pastors i need to talk to my parents i need to talk up to my accountability partners my mentors and seek the will of god not seek out what does my heart want not seek out what my desires want because my heart can lead me astray and i want to seek the will of god and i think that's just a healthier way to to view this as opposed to kind of making this preordained kind of decision that i just can never get married and i just have to just be celibate for the rest of my life man you are just a wealth of of great thoughts um so let's let's let me ask you this about revoice i i looked at their website today and it says this revoice exists to support and encourage christians who are sexual minorities so they can flourish in historic christian traditions now the thing that jumped out at me when i read that was the phrase sexual minorities that's an implicit sort of embrace of this idea of your sexuality being that identity category we were talking about earlier that that is goes along with side b so even considering that to be an identifier that would put you in the minority oppressed versus oppressor class like you were just talking about but there's also this interesting phrase here where they talk about we want those sexual minorities to flourish in historic christian traditions so can you comment on maybe a little bit on both of those things yeah am i right to see that implication there in that phrase and then what do they mean by historic christian traditions yeah so sexual minority is um is a phrase that has been used in social science discipline and also psychology but it is and it's a secular framework um and you know is that something that that christians that we should use so i think we need to have these discussions of showing how you know issues i mean we're right now in the conversations about race and um and also you know between male and female and sexism and all that you know that's what the world is dealing with and as the church we need to address that as well biblically so the problem with using the terminology sexual uh minority is that you're exactly right it makes uh sexuality an issue that's that seems to be on par with other essential characteristics like race and like sex male or female but it's not on par because whereas my race is truly an ontological category is it's a category of essence it is part of my personhood same with being male my sexuality is not and so let's just let's let's go to scripture where i mentioned that passage about um in matthew 22 where jesus says that there will be no marriage in heaven if we follow the logic if there's no marriage in heaven that we're all going to be single in eternity but we corporately went to the lamb of god if there's no marriage in heaven and we know if sex is only reserved for marriage that means there will be no sex in heaven if there's no sex in heaven follow the logic then that also means that would mean there's no sexual desires in heaven and if there's no sexual desires in heaven that actually also means sexual or romantic desires in heaven then that also means that sexuality is only a here and now reality just as marriage between a man and a woman is only an institution for here and now not for eternity sexuality is as well and the reason is because sexuality and marriage will be fulfilled in eternity uh marriage is going to be fulfilled because it's the ultimate reality what's what marriage is today between a man and woman what they point to as paul says in ephesians 5 is the mystery the mystery of christ and the church and that's going to be fulfilled i love what piper says that if there's uh the reason why there's no marriage in heaven he says it's because um uh you know marriage is just a shadow of the ultimate reality and when the ultimate reality comes to fruition in the eschaton and that means um you know that that uh that christ in the church revelation 19 that they are wed you know during the great supper of the lamb then there's no more need for the shadow and i love that that picture you know you don't need the shadow anymore you don't need the thing that's pointing to the reality when the reality comes to fruition so um sexual minority is problematic because again it it makes it seem like that sexuality is an ontological reality and and many of the you know my side b friends will often say well you know well i'm you know when i say side b i'm not using it onto logically they're using it phenomenologically which i don't know how many people actually know what phenomenology means why don't you tell us we define the big words on this podcast so people don't feel lost yes so ontology is basically um what is our essence what is um who we are and and we're not trying we're not being gnostic here and trying to split kind of well we're just mind or spirit which on to like our whole essence our whole being in our whole meaning body and soul so you know we're not trying to play this gnostic game that identity is only just kind of a a spiritual reality but ontological means what is our essence like the core of our being that's uh ontology so in other words when you think of ontology think of being phenomenological and the reason why i sometimes laugh when people uh you know try to say well i'm use this word phenomenologically um before i was in my doctoral program i had no clue what phenomenology was and try to say that fast 10 times phenomenology essentially i mean i think what they're trying to mean even though this isn't exactly what it means they're trying to say well i just use it like to refer to my experience this is what i feel or what i do that's nice but you can't redefine words that's not what phenomenology means phenomenology means that experience it's a study that uses the framework that our experience that you can't really know truth except through your experience that's phenomenology and if they're using actually the the right definition that's something we need to reject i mean that's rooted in post-modernism and that that there is no truth that actually truth can only be gained through our experience but that's actually how oftentimes it is practically uh spoken and given uh you know at revoice you know people who who have this experience are given authority or others don't and if you don't then you have to be apologetic i mean you know my good friend you know preston sprinkle i i've i think he's a really he's a super gifted speaker i just don't agree on many important aspects he often begins his talk by saying very apologetically saying i'm a straight white cisgender male and that shouldn't matter elisa you don't have same such attractions but that does not mean you cannot speak god's truth on this topic just because you happen to be caucasian does not give you any less authority to speak god's truth um just because i'm chinese doesn't give me more authority just because i have this experience doesn't give me more authority it could give me some some different insights but even my insights need to be submissive to the word of god you know oftentimes when i speak at churches and conferences i say this please don't believe something simply because i said it don't believe anything just because some person with a bunch of you know letters after their name said it or they seem really authoritative or they wrote a bunch of books do not believe that simply because someone says it listen take notes but then go home and open up this book the word of god that is our only authority and i submit myself fully to the word of god because we have god has revealed himself through his word and that's what we need to submit to not according to what we feel and what we think so um so you know when people say well you know i use this only experientially but when it's being used practically like just simply using the word sexual minority that places you in a category of personhood like you're you're we're categorizing human beings now according to our desires so we categorize people according to their sex male or female we categorize people according to their skin color you know their race and now we're categorizing people according to their desires is that what god intended that that we would be um put into different boxes according to our sexual desire or any desire and i would argue and i would say no so sexual minority is problematic in that um it it makes sexuality more of an ontological reality and it almost puts it on par with other true uh issues that could be leading to morality whether it's race or whether it is um being sex male or you know male or female and um but it also kind of is pointing to this framework of like you said lisa the the oppressor and the victim so these are essentially all the people that are oppressed because they're minorities and now they have authority and they need to listen to everyone else and and everyone else because you don't have this victimhood status you need to listen um so that's you know i and i'll be honest um in my doctoral research when i began in 2009 i i began to use that phrase and then i realized that is wrought with errors and so i had to change my research and even though it was in still my my survey that i sent out but in my what i printed out or in my print of my dissertation i changed the the terminology and the vocabulary on that but then this issue of uh historic christian traditions um and and i'm and i'm glad that they're naming what they're following you know it's the traditions that they're following because um spiritual spiritual friendship uh celibacy not rooted in scripture but it's only rooted in traditions which we should actually take our traditions and always take our traditions and submit them to the word of god and uh but i would argue they don't hold to um biblical christian biblical sexuality and why is that because they're just limiting that the only thing that's wrong is the act the same sex sex is is wrong but as long as you don't have sex then it's okay uh you know i heard someone say the you know side b and of course there's there's lots of people that that it's a really really broad category and some might say oh no you know i believe the other things are sinful but but side b it is a pretty broad but i heard this best describe that uh side b are the people that are trying really really hard not to have gay sex so again it's just limiting the gay sex part um that that's the only thing that's wrong and they're finding unity in that which i just i i don't know if that's a good place to find unity again let's find our unity in christ in his holiness in his perfection not on well just this one part is sin but a lot of people are actually giving in to other parts that are sin and then we're okaying it by saying we need to be united so i i think it's it's saying that actually at the end of the day side a and side b both believe that gay marriage is okay side a just calls it gay marriage side b just says just don't have the sex but they're essentially now renaming it and calling gay marriage without the sex spiritual friendship which is a covenanted lifelong you know even with a ceremony same-sex marriage apart without having the sex so this is really helpful because sometimes even in the apologetics community when this topic comes up when people do like i've done lots of q and a's where this kind of this will be thrown in a very hostile way like well what do you think about homosexuality and then you're kind of on the spot and sometimes and i've said this i'm sure and i've heard other uh people in the apologetics community say well when we talk about homosexuality we're talking about same-sex behavior um so i wonder if you might help me clarify my language on that how would you advise me to begin talking about that rather than just because i think i might be guilty of that at times like separating like just making it about the actual behavior but we don't do that with other sins if there's if we're if we have a a lust in our heart for even you know within a um a heterosexual attraction or something if there's lust in your heart if jesus talks about this on the sermon on the mount well that's sin so it's not just you know having promiscuous sex in a heterosexual sense that's the sin there's more to it so help us in the apologetics community how can we word this better well you know elisa i i'm you know so there's been a journey as well so i also would say you know it's just the behavior that's wrong but the attraction isn't i i use that same you know 20 years ago when i was just coming out of prison and um i hadn't been to bible college or seminary uh so i just said you know it's just the behavior that's wrong but the act attraction isn't but as i studied it more that's where i realized this whole conversation around whether samsung's attraction is sinful or not um we're not defining our terms i mean it's not like the number one rule define your terms and we're not defining attraction and then we're debating over it and so i think it's best uh because everyone has all these different you know definitions some say attraction just means temptation some say attraction means desire um let's just use those words the biblical terminology like whenever we can let's just use biblical terminology and not the other terminology that could confuse of course i still use a phrase same-sex attraction kind of just generally but when we're talking specifically about ethics that's when i said okay then now let's talk about let's parse it out and say attraction i mean i'm sorry temptation and desire whereas temptation is not actual sin but it's definitely rooted in original sin so a lot of times people really uh this is another thing a critique of side b gay christians they just limit sin to actual sin the actual behavior we're actually the doctrine of sin actual sin is just a small aspect of the doctrine of sin we're talking about original sin we're talking about our sin nature or even talking about indwelling sin all these very important concepts that go beyond just the act of sin so the temptation is not sin but it's definitely rooted in our sin nature and it's something that we need to flee and mortify desire you know uh it's not that desire turns into lust but actually the same word in the greek new testament for desire is the same word that we sometimes translate as lust epithumia it's just depends on the context but getting back like what would be a healthy way i i want people to first understand like what do you think about homosexuality i think what i would say is first of all um every person needs to follow jesus i mean you know that's that's the main issue so um we need to treat every person with dignity and respect same-sex relationships are sinful but it's not the worst sin and uh so we need to point people to christ that that we need to say that it's we need to make sure that uh even not only our behaviors um are are to be sanctified which is progressive but also our thoughts and our desires need to be sanctified and helping people to kind of parse that out that and even if you give in right i mean christians we still sin just hopefully we're sitting less and less we're not sin less we're just hopefully sitting less and less right you know that kind of little catchphrase and i think that's helpful because what separates us before i came to christ i just was in bondage to my sin now i'm no longer in bondage to my sin that doesn't mean that i'm not tempted i still am but i'm no longer in bondage to my sin so i think it's pointing people to uh you know people ask what do you think about homosexuality i would say well you know this is the behavior and the desire is sin temptation is not sin it's not a sinful act but it is rooted in our sin nature but we need to encourage people that this is not the worst sin it's uh there is hope for any sinner of any person dealing with their indwelling sin but ultimately the goal for every human being is that you need to follow jesus and what does that mean deny yourself pick up your cross daily and follow him that's good that's good because i think among young people the question because they've so adopted this idea of your sexuality being a descriptor of the core essence of who you are uh that you know i have young people even ask me well why does god hate gay people or why does god send gay people to hell or you know and i i answered a kid once very similar to what you said in a broader way but i just said you know god gives every single person the same opportunity to repent of their sin and trust in him you know and kind of focusing on that that it's not like god's just choosing this one group that really just nothing they can do about it they just have no shot i think that's what they buy and that's what they buy into the young people and because of their culture telling them that this is like who you are at the deepest core of your being so man this has been which is which is also you know that's why when when we say as christians this is sin they don't hear us saying oh you're saying you know my behavior is sin they hear us saying like you're a whole person you are yeah this is you know this is who you are and and you know i'm going to borrow again from rosaria butterfield but she said you know as christians we're able to hate our sin without hating ourselves and yet if we don't help i really think if there's one thing that christians could get is how we have and the world completely has we are conflating sexuality with who we are you know even i'm not just picking on the word gay straight um also is not an appropriate term for a christian my my mom never introduces herself and says i'm a straight christian she is a christian uh she's a sinner saved by grace um we all have sinful temptations and and that's really important and and if i could just also add many many times you know as i speak on this often and this sometimes come also with the side b uh celebrity christian christianity uh they have it so hard you know they they can't ever get married they just have to be celibate and people look at me be like oh you must have it so hard i don't actually it's not easy but when i read scripture it's pretty clear three times in the synoptic gospels matthew mark and luke jesus lays it out what it means to be a follower of christ deny yourself pick up your cross and follow me that's not at all meant to be easy it's going to be hard but it's worth it and so people like myself i'm just simply doing what the call of every christian is to do which is to say no to my sin nature every day it's going to be difficult but god gives us the grace he gives us the holy spirit abiding in us to do so and to say no to our flesh because following jesus should cost us everything if it hasn't maybe we're following the wrong jesus well i want to thank my guest christopher yuan rich discussion today if you want to view our little five to ten minute after party hangout time you can go to patreon.com alisa childers uh if you are watching on youtube please subscribe and click click that bell icon so that you're notified especially next week we're gonna have rosaria butterfield we talked about her a couple times in this episode she's going to bring her insights to this discussion next week and if you're listening on audio platforms like itunes or google or spotify helps if you go and leave a five star review and if you see this post shared on social media if you share it out really helps us get the word out to more people so thanks so much for watching and we'll see you next time [Music] you

Channel: Alisa Childers

Views: 92,482

Keywords: apologetics

Id: EQF68WF-hWo

Length: 64min 12sec (3852 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 10 2022