Women in Ministry: Addressing the complementarian egalitarian debate

let's say that beautiful music hey everybody this is John Lewis with the remnant radio thank you so much for tuning in today we've got an exciting episode for you probably the hottest of topics the hottest refuted the hottest debate it's a it's a the most human topic we've had yet yes the remnant radio on the Facebook thank you so much for tuning in today for those of you who are not aware remnant radio is a theology podcast we invite people pastors and teachers from different churches and denominations onto the show to talk about theology we discuss stuff we agree about stuff we disagree about stuff we trying to model a godly character in discussing in this theology so we hope that you are enjoying the weekly weekly remnant radio show Michael how has your week been man good slowly potty training my son and trying to get myself out of the world of diapers yeah which I mean we've still got some ways to go because we have another kid that's just newly born I've only got one more the boys learning from the other two yeah we've found that chocolate really works yes I found that chocolate with the stevia in it so that way the kids not like on a sugar rush but as a reward you mean yeah yeah wasn't sure where those go yeah but it's been a fun week and he's so cute - it's like the funnest thing to watch well that's me talking on the computer I am you to the live video so so we've got a guest on the show today Jeff tell us a little bit about yourself in your ministry before we dive into the topic awesome well we are in McKinney Texas and we launched anchor Church about three and a half years ago and we are seeing a whole lot of awesome stuff happening but anyway but we have five kids my wife and I Sarah four daughters and one son and they range from 17 to 8 and there's been a lot of fun seeing exactly man I lost all my hair before daughters men I'll change your life for sure that yeah it's been an amazing journey we've seen just a lot of salvations a lot of transformation and churches going by and land building a new building and all that kind of stuff so good stuff happening it's honored to be here with you guys well we've had we a good week here I just finished up filming ten episodes with dr. Scott Horrell on the Trinity so that's gonna be fun we're gonna be releasing that April 1st is the plan got a video coming out tomorrow that will kind of it's the first teaser if you will of him talking about that so really I wish I could have done that with you know unfortunately family circumstances and all that yeah no worries next time we're gonna do a word of faith episode where we're gonna be talking about the word of faith I think it's 8 parts with Michael Mitchell maybe you can tack into that dude yeah that'll be interesting for those of you who aren't aware where we stand on that stay tuned Jeff tell us a little about the subject complementarianism Galit arianism the misconceptions rightly defined them those kinds of things in the history where did it come from yeah well you know i from from my understanding the first time I was exposed to this was from Wayne Grudem and I was a famous theologian who wrote has written a lot done a lot on systematic theology lots of professors who have I mean lots of students and theologians who've been to seminary have probably read a systematic theology book and back in the 1980s he and John Piper got together with a team of people and we're doing a lot of research and work on what the responsibilities and roles are for men and women in leadership and I use that word role loosely because there's not a there's not a word in scripture like in the in the text of role of women and women so it's been assigned to trying to categorize what men can do and what women can do and in that whole study they were trying to build some parameters around what what women are allowed to do in church and what men are allowed to do in church and then what's expected of men in the home and in all this and so the conversation came out to lead into what's called a Danvers you know statement or Danvers paper and it was a paper that was written a document that was written defining by John Piper and Wayne Grudem a biblical manhood and Biblical womanhood and then they got into the conversation of how do we summarize biblical manhood biblical one into a single sentence and they said here's where we stand on this in the Danvers paper and it is that God created man and woman equally with different roles in the home and in the church and then they got to the point of kind of defining that more specifically and said how do we shrink this down to one word what we're trying to do and so they started off with traditionalist you know this is a traditionalist perspective and they're like yeah that doesn't really connect well because there's a lot of traditions that are weird in this in traditionalists as in like this is the historical yeah this is a traditionalist perspective and they were like yeah this didn't work good word because there's a lot of traditions in this whole thing of men and women's leadership and what was cultural what wasn't that's kind of weird so don't use that and then they came up with the word hierarchical and they're like even though there is some hierarchy here it's not completely hierarchical and that didn't really communicate what we want to communicate and literally john piper and wayne grudem kind of coined this phrase complementarian and so complementarianism became the word that summarized a more traditional perspective of the the role of the man as being the head of the wife male leadership male eldership and those things as an explanation for God created men and women equal but they have differing roles in the home and in the church all right so that's complementarianism egalitarianism is a word that's been around for a long time longer than that and it was defined as God created men and women equally with but there's no difference differentiation of their roles and what they can and cannot do in the home of the church and so it's it's more loosely defined and so this came from a secular conversation not even yeah and egalitarian kind of in the in the church stuff I mean you you won't even find this language debated until you get to around fifty six in 1956-57 and then in the 60s and then you'll see a lot of people kind of even the Southern Baptist Convention went and to a much more loose egalitarian position until they got a new president you know after there was a season of time with these revolution yeah and then they came back around and were more conservative and lots of universities had they literally like removed presidents and founders of the university were becoming more egalitarian and brought in conservative professors to try to kind of shore a lot of this up you know and it's way past all that now yes so so historically this has been a conversation that's been happening for a very very long time and as far as we can tell the church has always had two different positions on this like you know we got records all the way up to the early church couple hundred years after Christ of women in ministry and the guys saying no and that's not a thing so you've got the church kind of divided throughout history on this topic as well it has that conversation been framed a theological language like I mean do they just say women in ministry women preaching I mean it gets down to the specifics when they're talking about this well there's there's a couple of anglican priests and anglican theologians that have been more deliberate in defending the egalitarian view and they they'll trace the language even back to the Reformation movement and in language that was used and even trying to summarize that was in the 70s is the first time the word rolls was used and so I'm not sure what the language was used before that but there was definitely I mean people didn't have a lot of freedom yeah in with men and women's role there was there was also absolutely nothing in the Catholic Church because it was you know yeah it got kind of wild once anybody tried to take over leadership at all yeah but before that there was debates with some of the early church fathers you know with men and women and you know but but you don't see anything like that and Catholicism or during that age and you don't until people start getting scriptures and start interpreting for themselves and start trying to define what's cultural what's not cultural what was actually stated for all times and what was actually just something that was true them and not true now and there exists a good place so that we've kind of framed those conversations for those you who are listening you have the Galit Aryan position you have the complementarian position there's tons of gray areas in betweens of different shades you've got one point compliment Aryans and two point compliment Aryans which is something that you brought up to my attention that I'd never heard it before I suppose I've always called a one point complementarian inegalitarian maybe would be good to define that before we even get into this yes so Wayne Grudem who some people call him the father of complementarianism but he didn't he's not the father of all he's that word where is he you know so he's an Indian Piper John Piper are amazing scholars and are very faithful with the word and are way smarter than me and my friends or my friends and I but friends in media so anyway so I'm not I'm not challenging that and they have a whole lot more at stake there are leaders of universities they feel like like I feel a call and a burden to really Shepherd this flock of people called anchor Church and McKinney and really steward the call of God to multiply and helped effectively multiply congregations around the world and things like that he feels the same about protecting the doctrine of the church and so Wayne Grudem has done a whole lot of work on this and it's done a lot of work in regards to how universities are straying and some of their hermeneutics and how they're interpreting Scripture and he's actually been pretty accurate and saying once you actually give in on this interpretation when Paul says women remain silent the churches and I don't permit a woman to speak and those kinds of things when you start to say that's cultural then you start to see things of hey listen let's just ordain women and then you see the language of hey let's make women elders and then you see hey let's just allow this ordained homosexuals hey less ordained transgender and I was the reference that Matt used when he was on the show yes so yeah he's done a lot of work with this and so he's defined complementarianism as one point in two points so two points would be this God created men and women equally with differing roles in the church and in the home right which means that that they they have there's specific roles for the four women in the church in roles for men in the church there's also roles for men the home enrolls for women in the home one point complementarianism he would define it as God has created men and women equally with different roles in the home and he would say there there the one point complementarian is that there's women are allowed to preach and teach and they have similar roles and you know can function that way and then egalitarian is there there are no differences men can do anything women can do when we can do anything men can do and it's it's there's no gender specific instructions in the body of Christ it's all about their giftedness ability in what's most fruitful for the church so let me just bring a clarifying question because I've known a lot of I've had a lot of friends who would call themselves egalitarian but those same friends would say but in the home I believe in headship and so what you're saying is least for the for this show that we're calling that a 1-point complementarian yeah now that person is not really a gala Terry and egalitarian would be equal in all things right by those working definitions I don't know that I've ever met an egalitarian like a like in my church or any of the churches that I've pastored because they would as far as I've met would say oh yeah in the home there's a specific role for both men and women you know husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church wives submit yourselves to your husband's like this is a biblical order of the home but they would go but not in church well my former church went that extra step and was saying even in the home there's no headship yeah which I was not quite willing to just jump on board with and but it takes time to articulate some of these positions and yeah listen you're out there you don't have to pick a side you've got to study God's Word you've got to you know submit this stuff to your local eldership talk about this stuff hash this out make sure that you're being faithful of the scriptures that people you're talking with are being faithful the scriptures which kind of introduces us to our second point today and I want to make sure that we're very careful about this those of you who are tuning in that are complementarian I don't let you know right now that our Galit Aryan brothers are our one point complement Aryan brothers are really brothers and sisters they're not these crazy liberal individuals who are looking at God's Word and just trying to twist it and manipulate it so they can kind of follow you know all of the the trends of the day and all the the third wave feminism they're not just trying to manipulate things because it's easy in our culture they're honest biblical scholars guys Craig keener guys what are some of the the theological illegality Rian's out there uh in tea right right well I write a full egalitarian or one-point complementarian I'm just saying people who don't hold the both church and home Jack Hayford you know there's a lot more of the charismatic Pentecostal assembly a God yes egalitarian very but they're they're egalitarian in their permission of women to be elders yeah and women to be pastors you know and women to be ordained and so they're more egalitarian in that sense through them would actually code Allah Tyrion yeah and yeah so so just for the sake of the conversation you know anyone who believes that there are not restrictions on women in the church however you wanted to find that within a many working demonstrations and roll those people are not abusive liberal Christians trying to redefine things they're actually using history and an exegesis and a specific hermeneutic to try to understand the scriptures so we need to give them that we need to say okay we're assuming that you don't have a malicious intent but that you're just trying to honor God's Word to the best of your ability and to those who are Galit Aryans who are watching this program and there's complementarian brothers and sisters who are also watching please don't think of them as misogynistic wifebeaters who are just trying to beat women into submission and and find your place and don't you know that you're lesser than me these are just men and women of God who are looking at God's Word and trying to comprehend it to the best of their ability and be faithful and subject themselves to God's Word so both groups let's go ahead and assume that the person holding a different position than you are godly people trying to submit themselves to God word Brooksie came on the show and he was anti penal substitution area gentleman and that's very very very uncommon yeah what one of the things that he said was the beautiful thing about being a Christian is that the world can see us and disagree about topics and see that there is an overwhelming love for one another that the world doesn't have yeah you can watch the Fox News and the CNN where they bring someone on that disagrees with them and they just want to treat them as horribly as possible they bring someone we suitable consider in hate speech today yeah because they wanna look superior and smart we're not doing that on the show and we would ask that anyone in the comments go watch a different theology program I mean I love you so much you know you can watch the program here we say but please just don't get involved in the comment section you know have a conversation address the theology say I think you're taking this wrong I think this is what the text says but don't character assassinate people and assume their motive when when coming into this conversation okay so we love you all you're all welcome be nice to each other be big kids and then another thing final thing we've got a phone number we want you to call in with your questions two one four two three three six two nine two two one four it's right there on the screen two three three six two nine two that's the phone number that you can call Michael will be taking your questions we want these questions to be concise so if you have to write them down so that when you call in you can just don't get that question out there as quickly as possible once you asked your question we will mute you on the sound board hang up the phone and answer your question to the best of our ability if we didn't do that you can maybe follow up in the comment section also comments sections if you don't you know maybe you're Noah and you're watching from Norway or wherever he's from you just go ahead and ask those comments via text and Michael will be tossing them out to us as well as we get going so when we talk about this theological position of complimentary nism and a Galit arianism what are the biggest hang-ups why is this a divisive topic I mean that's kind of a stupid question uh you know because you're telling women you can't do this and they're women pastors who are doing this it's extremely offensive so so so I guess what are the dividing marks what are the the hermeneutic approaches to this text yeah so I grew up in a very conservative denomination background a Church of Christ right and so in the Churches of Christ women are not allowed to preach they're now allowed to teach beyond like the fifth grade and some of the more conservative you know arenas they weren't allowed to sing with a microphone on the platform at all they weren't allowed to teach publicly they weren't allowed to you know have any kind of leadership the lit it was it was a pretty extreme right they they could pass communion like down the aisle to the person beside them but they couldn't stand up in the aisle and administrate communion because it was a form of leadership like it was that extreme right so the first couple of congregations I pastored were Churches of Christ and so we were we we transitioned from Church of Christ and nondenominational in both of the churches that are pastored before I went on staff at Gateway Church in South Lake and some other larger much larger churches congregations and even before planting anchor Church so I've been a part of very conservative I think largeman gateway I'm like how large was it well I learned a lot about that so Jack Hayford was a major part of the oversight of Gateway Church and as an apostolic elder there and is much more of a one-point complementarian or even egalitarian in regards to the women's roles in the church and is probably even a little bit more progressive than gateway as himself so so as I'm watching all these things and I look at the text of Scripture you you can support complementarianism by the text itself because Paul uses number one there were all which kind of complementary you know two-point complementarianism pretty strongly and the reason is because whether it was because there was a male-dominated culture or because God created man first and then woman and there were specific roles he defined throughout all time we can talk about that in this conversation but but in Scripture there were twelve apostles and the twelve Jesus selected were all males when you look throughout Scripture you can't find if you're using a hermeneutic of speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it's silent and you can't find a necessary inference or an example or a first like example at all of a female preaching to a male audience there are no examples of that and so if you use that hermeneutic to say there's no example of a woman elder there's no example of a woman pastor there's no example of a woman leading in a congregation then you have to say okay are there any other examples or instructions about this you're like yeah Paul actually says in this verse and the exact language is women remain silent in the churches I don't permit a woman to speak or you know have authority over man if you have questions ask their at home and then in some places he says women when they pray they should do so with their heads covered other places he says women remain silent and the church don't speak wives submit to your Hudson terian view of women have specific roles in the church Peter says in first Peter 3 he tells you know women you're subject to your husband's husbands treat your wives of the weaker vessel so you're like this seems like a different role in the home as well and so you have biblical you have scriptures that teach and examples of there being different responsibilities in in and so when you look at that you're like how do we actually do Christianity how do we form the church how do we lead the church can women preach well let's look at the Bible huh we don't have an example of a woman preaching a church we don't have an example of this so what do we do with it and it really forces people to actually dive beneath and say wow the Bible also says that a woman should pray with her hair covered is that traditional is that cultural I'm gonna be a little bit more selective in my hermeneutic and say that was cultural you don't have to put something on top of your head what was Paul actually saying there I don't know what why did he say that yeah why do you say that why did he say don't wear gold and jewelry and braid your hair why don't he say these things at first Timothy to Carmel one of our our viewers right now is actually asking about that very question so when this is all about hermeneutics here it's and how are we gonna interpret this this scripture are we gonna pull in context that we think might apply and then interpret the scripture or do we think that we should be able to interpret it using the Scriptures alone and that's what you're saying that's where the the major breakdown is between the complementary and egalitarian position is that correct yeah and in the case in point with this one so the the people who apply the the hermeneutic that you need to bring in historical context that probably applies the situation would say in that particular passage that it's when it says for as a dishonor for a woman to have her head uncovered because of the Angels some people will say well that that is a reference to Genesis 6 the whole thing about the angels coming down in procreating with women that hair was considered in the ancient old part of the genitalia it was mentioned yeah the reproduction reproductive system and so and they find that from what's-his-name Hippocrates oh yeah in his yeah yeah we've actually have it on our YouTube page I'll link it oh yeah we did head coverings me and John bun the guy who came on with a charismatic thing and we referenced that as the last point you have to watch kind of towards the end for that to be explained and I'll link to the article there as well so then the the deeper question then between the egalitarian complementarian question is music you know which when is it okay to say that's cultural when is it not okay and there is the whole slippery slope argument on that if you're willing to say well this is a cultural issue where else are you gonna apply that and and how far can we go with that and when does it start to just get crazy and that's that's you know for those of you who are listening to to Matt who came on the show and he said you know Matt Chandler mentioned Lee yeah so that those who are Galit Aryan are baptizing cats it was a joke for him to say that some of the people in his church were were scared that if they embraced this what else were they going to let go if they're gonna let go of this doctrine what else were they gonna let go of and there are arguments within the to point complementarian system that says well you know the the arguments of this was cultural or this is specific to the context or the specific to their time is the same arguments that are used for homosexuality or slavery slavery or those kinds of things so like how do you properly approach a hermeneutic in a text like this what are those clarifying mark so how would how would you approach these texts like you've got in maybe this would be a good point to kind of define some of this there are different levels of complementarianism here at this table some of these positions are developing we're just hoping to introduce you to the conversation so so as we talk about this what would be the hermeneutical processes for a 1-point complementarian to say yes this is for the home but not for the church how would they pick and choose those verses yes so I want to I want to first of all say this is gonna sound flippant right do your best yeah yeah and I say that way I'm serious we're not saved by there's that something that we are responsible for but there's a whole lot of things in Scripture that are really not easy to define they're not easy to research does it mean do what's convenient it means like really dig into this and what does the text say yeah and up until we had the printed word we didn't even have to do our best we'd say what we're told it's right yeah we didn't but now that we have the responsibility of researching and everybody has an Internet and that's even more dangerous letter Bible right so you've got you've got the Internet you've got videos you've got multiple teachers you've got lots of ways to actually go and find out and so for example when you go into a text of scripture that says sing and make music in your heart unto the Lord and you look for an example of instrumental music in New Testament worship you're not gonna find one like there were no bands in the underground church yeah there just were like you didn't want people to know you were in a worship service because you get killed so there's no example of music there so you have Old Testament and eternity like so was the word episode conversation in your own background yeah Werther in like were there no instruments in the first century because lead guitar nobody had instruments or was it a cultural thing was it was it a conditions thing or was it a theological thing and I went through those debates a long time you went through the same thing on the practice of the sacraments and Communion and baptism and how do we people do this do we do we baptize in the name of this so you're trying to form these doctrines and so what you do is you go to the scripture itself and you look at the scripture like in first Timothy chapter 2 or Paul is writing specifically it's one of the most strongest statements that he makes about the roles of women and men in the church it's to a person that we would equate equate to a senior pastor today of B Timothy and you look at his congregation and Ephesus and you take a look at what did he say and he said you know women you learn in submission and you know don't that this is this is an instruction I don't permit you to teach and have authority over a man huh I wonder if he said that anywhere else well he didn't say it in the same way anywhere else he actually uses a different Greek word for teach there than where else and uses a different word for have authority over a man than anywhere else so that uniqueness makes me dive into is there anything in the culture that's unique here that I can find out about the culture and Ephesus the women and Ephesus some of the historical teachings about Ephesus what what are other theologians saying and so that makes me dive deeper to see if this is a standalone deal or if this is unique or if it's consistent with Scripture he also says something here that's really unique in first Timothy two where he says hey for Adam was formed first and then Eve you know she's the one who sinned and then it says and women will be saved through childbirth what in the world is he saying here so it forces you to say that's a weird verse throw it away or it forces you to say I've got to dive deeper here to find out if this is cultural or not and so then you do you have to do is just basic hermeneutics and study in Scripture you go to that text you look at other texts for supporting you look at what is the first reference of this and he goes over back to Genesis so this is a pretty good scripture to build some theology off of because he does reference Adam he does reference creation he does reference the curse of women in childbirth and in Genesis and so huh I've got to do some bigger dig some deeper digging around this text because this is something that's pretty loaded and I can't just like tell women to be quiet because first Timothy 2 says why does it say that and what's the overall narrative going on here it's carmel and our podcast and who's watching she just said if women are to be silent in the church why did jesus send women to the well or at at well and mary magdalene to spread the gospel that did that come out clearly yeah yeah I think we know the question yes like that Christ appeared first to women and gave them what as far as we can tell is the greatest honor of seeing Christ risen at the first eyewitness it blows my mind and what's really what's really awesome is like one of the major things that Jesus did was there was nobody who was more liberating to women in a male dominant culture than Jesus and it makes me think that he almost did it just to offend people like think of all the people he could have appeared to first I mean what would have happened if Jesus would have gone straight to Herod you know what I'm saying and like boom dude you know like Malala yeah yeah what if he like seriously have you ever say all of you ever traced that out but like name the top ten people you would appear to if you'd risen from the dead the guy who killed you yeah the one who said the spirit inside where's that dude hey listen I'm gonna see you in two and a half three days or anybody so why did he first appear to Mary Magdalene like why her like why the woman who perhaps was the demons are out of her and she's got all these things going on an immoral lifestyle I thing they accused him of hanging out with prostitutes because of yeah why not I think now with her why not his mom first or whoever like this is Mary Mac why her and so why did the gospel first get communicated from a female why did when Paul arrived in Philip I the own the first person who has a household conversion is Lydia a woman so all these things are like massive nuggets to me in Scripture that emphasize that God not only is changing the entire culture and the value of women because if you go to the Book of Luke and acts man Luke is kind of a doctor he's the Thiele he's that he's the one who writes a whole lot of stuff he wrote Luke and acts but he's kind of a he's informed by Paul and her strong calling in theology and man he has a major theme in Luke and acts of women it's a major deal so as far as a point of agreement everyone at the table would agree Christ changes the role of women by Testament I think everyone the table agrees that there's nobody a colossal jump in history in history like the church is more empowering of women throughout history than like the rest of the world caught on to the leadership of the Church of empowering women in ministry cultural that same you just made I want to qualify that a little bit because you're not saying that that the church has always led the charge in an egalitarian advance what you're saying is historically they especially Jesus in particular right at that that change of the women reviewed his commodity yes as land or cattle yeah and so Jesus was progressive in that you're also not saying that the church has done the best job of that today right because when you say that statement historically that's gonna I mean that's a buzz statement right there half the people in the world are going well we'll have two women that you know are going oh that's only not true but that's because their framework is the last 50 years yeah yeah we're talking about historically the church through the inspiration and the teachings of Christ and the Apostles has given women more rights had set free more captives of slavery than literally any other organization fought through religious philosophy out there yeah that's what we're saying that that that Christ's doctrine the document of the Apostles the teaching of what we see in Scripture clearly elevates women into a position that they hadn't they had never had prior yeah yeah yeah and there's there's something also that has stood out to me in in it's it's let me let me preface this by saying okay I had to do a whole lot of personal study and work because of my upbringing I grew up in a male dominant home my mom did what my dad said pretty much you know and and more so than my friends and peers she grew up in a male dominant home and there's a lot of male kind of leader like it's a lot of Lists I mean a lot of you here you may have grown up that to you or maybe you didn't I don't know but in Louisiana it's in the south it's a conservative denomination I grew up with all okay so I I had to branch out of all that to come to understand like what is the narrative what's happening here in Scripture why did God appoint Deborah you know at the level he did why did God do the things that he did throughout the Old Testament and were these an exception was this because men weren't really fulfilling their purpose or why why all this and then you get to the New Testament it's like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom Jesus has women funding his ministry Paul writes in Romans 16 like really be sure the number one person to greet here is Phoebe she's the chief lead benefactor to my ministry which means she's funding this thing and she's she's she's a deacon in the church that's an office all right so she she's seen as a servant here and if if she's a and and then he going down there's other women that he mentions their Junya is another one and there's a lot of debate today over whether or not she was an actual apostle because the word says that she's well-known or how regarded among the Apostles and so whether that means she's highly regarded as an apostle or in the eyes of the pasal regardless greet this lady because she's a major game player in the kingdom of God in a big huge way okay so you see you see a lot of a lot of this happening in Scripture and I think like what what what's at stake here for for people to understand the value that Christ placed on women and I thought you know um I wonder if the way egalitarian and the feminist movement today in America is similar to what Paul was addressing and it really made me dive in even deeper there's a great theologian I respect a lot and his name is NT Wright so I don't know if you studied NT Wright or not but he did a lot of work on oh he's done a lot of work on all kinds of things in theology but specifically he and a few others have really referenced the culture in Ephesus when Paul writes this letter to Timothy Wright and the culture and Ephesus there I mean if you've ever been there I've been there a couple of times and when you go to the city of Ephesus in modern-day Turkey you go to this area you're gonna see one of the seven wonders of the world is this match that's massive temple that took 200 years to build and it's a temple of the Greek goddess Artemis who's like the daughter of Zeus right and in this temple there is a woman a female who's the the head of the temple only women can be a part of this temple culture unless it's castrated men and literally all the statues of this Greek goddess Artemis like there's little like circular things all over her body and everyone there in Ephesus says those are the testicles of men is what those are because the only way a man could serve in that temple was if he was castrated what did he just say oh we need like a sound of for that right there yes however this lady like she makes like Wonder Woman like I mean let that whole Amazon woman thing is Miss Artemis like yes died like there's that she's the goddess that actually you know we'll the reason babies die in the womb is because they were speared by Artemis I mean she murdered people men who tried to impregnate women like it was a real strong female dominant thing so you look at that you're like why in the world are women trying to get leadership of men here and then you're like is does that have anything to do with why paul told timothy and ephesus to tell women that they don't know a first thing about christ if they're trying to dominate their way into leadership and they need to learn and quietness and submission is that why he did that it's enough of a cultural thing that makes me wonder was there something else Paul was addressing here in this culture why why did he tell them that you're gonna be saved through childbirth was he telling them to stop giving their money to Artemis so that you can actually keep your babies from getting killed in this weird deal like what why was he getting the superstition out of here why was he telling them to not braid their hair and have all this gold for their beauty was he telling them to stop living according according to the culture that's bowing down here and then with that said you come and look at Christ and Christ says listen let me tell you what womanhood is womanhood is a woman who loves the Lord our God with all her heart her soul her mind and her strength and loves her neighbors herself let me tell you what Biblical manhood is it is a man who loves the Lord his God with all of his heart soul mind and strength and love his neighbors himself that's revolutionary yeah husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her women submit to your husband's as unto the Lord this is a this is a beautiful picture of not complementarianism or egalitarianism but christ-like love and this is the picture of the Trinity it's the picture of being together United it's the picture of a unity as the Father Son and Holy Spirit or one husband and wives when you come together you're one and neither one of you to dominate the other as a matter of fact husbands the way you lead your family is die for your wife wives the way you in it's your husband's and serve and lead and your family is to to treat your husband to serve him the way you serve Christ and so Jesus changes all that if those you're watching I just wanna remind you all we've got a phone number right there on your screen 2 1 4 2 3 3 6 to 9 to call in we'd love to take your call and we'll discuss all of this topic with if you have something specific that like hey there haven't addressed this yet we're well into the program 38 minutes in we've only got 22 minutes left in the program so we haven't even been able to present other positions here so for those of you are watching there are ranges of views here at this table I confused on whether to call them a gala terian or complementarian because of the definitions of one point and two point complementarian yeah the program some rate people who were jumping on later out and they're gonna be like wait you're all complement Ariens okay so the the one point complementarian position that is that there are different roles in the home that husbands and why have different roles in the home that suggests that there are things within the home that each should do and could do in submission and in leadership that keep them both equal in value but different in role you mentioned the trinity so at least what we everyone again common elements let's try to agree on as much as we can agree on you know as far as commonality goes the the idea that the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in value in in essence they're all obviously one person or three one God in three persons oh make sure I'm clear for my field and servants pyramid wall minute ten or eight parts you know Eliezer is like having a heart attack I'm misquoting names too anyway uh I need my wife here to help me with this um so so we've got these different roles father son spirit and they they function the father doesn't die on the cross Christ dies on the cross the father empowers the son tells the son helps the son the spirit leads the son guides the son but the Spirit is not the son the father is not the son if they're equal in value but different in roles the son of his own will because of his nature chose to find it not in himself equality to be God but humbled himself in the form of a servant right so Christ comes in the form of a servant humbling himself to the father and this doesn't make the son lesser than the father so in that regard there's a different function there's a different role but there's equal value and we can say at least in the home everyone can agree here that that the different roles do not equate to different value that that if a wife functions in a different way in the home that doesn't make her less valuable than her husband it just makes her different and that's actually something I think that could be beautiful and is beautiful maybe we should talk about that for a minute before we move too far onto this but before we do that let me just that'll get a little caveat here and something that I'm just kind of tired and sick of yeah he's feeling like I have to apologize for having a different position than someone else yeah and I feel like that happens on both sides well probably more so on the complementarian side most compliment Aryans today and and the heated climate that we're living in they feel like they have to apologize for being complementarian that's not right mm-hmm having a difference in opinion about a non-core issue in the church doesn't make you out to be a heater of women or hater of or you know somebody who's unwilling to empower that just means you're doing the best you can to be Integris to scripture and I think that that needs to be stated just across the board because it really is like yeah even in amongst other believers it does become like this sort of well you just want to keep people down which I know we preface this earlier but it's worth stating again for anybody's about to call in yeah I just again I don't think if you're a complementarian that you should have to apologize for being one yeah mmm that's good yeah and then for those you case who are still listening we wouldn't want to frame this conversation the best that we can we would agree that there are different roles for men and women in the home at least everyone on this panel and as some of you were watching at home or like no absolutely not men and women function in the same room what would you say would be some of those roles that men and women function in the home that are different we'll be willing to go there or is that a slippery slope but no it's not at all and it's it and I'm I'm actually I probably surprise you with my answer on this is that when you get down to like what I said earlier on if you want to really define what biblical and hood is and Biblical womanhood is when you start to get into specifics of what one does and what the other does it's gonna be really messy I agree right and so if you say the husband is the breadwinner and the wife stays home with the kids it's really messy right and there there are pastors famous senior pastors have actually said that that men should be ashamed of themselves and are kind of almost as worth as bad as an unbeliever if they're not the main breadwinner to the home you know and so there's this agree with that absolutely so so there's so when you get down to the roles if you get specific and say for every wife she should stay at home that it's wrong like it it's it's wrong so this is where I am on this is that it's not just completely choice but I for however you wanted to find it I'm I'm spiritually eternally responsible for providing spiritual leadership for my family okay my wife regardless of how I think God may hold her accountable if she actually says you know what I never kind of took a thority and led them led the family spiritually I let I let Jeff do that like that I don't know how God's gonna handle that I just know that in Scripture if headship means leadership providing source all those kinds of things that I function taking the responsibility whether I'm passive whether I have a more introverted personality regardless of what my personality is Christ's are going to to to to take initiative that's a really good point maybe so if you go now you get because I think that there there are arguments made from I want to say really ignorant to point yeah yeah compliment Aryans let's say well women can't do this because they're emotional or or they're not they're not careful thinkers or that's that's folly that's just silly yeah is that again who are dumb as rocks yeah extremely emotional and that argument falls apart very very quickly that this is my definition of Biblical manhood love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself if Jesus says every single law yeah it's summed up in this that's pretty important to me and if I go and say what is biblical womanhood it is not being like your highest calling as a woman is not being a mother it's not it's loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself period like that's it if your highest calling as a father is not to be the provider of your family it's to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength love your neighbor yourself if your wife is making $300,000 a year and you're making 50,000 a year doing the absolute best you can you're not less of a man because your wife's making more money like it has nothing like biblical manhood biblical womanhood doesn't depend upon your your your ability to to grow a beard and fight and have courage because the Bible calls women to courage the same way it calls men to merge it calls women to take initiative to lead and this is yeah and well they're gonna find is like when you look at this is powerful and this is a whole nother thing I was at the lake this weekend with one of our elders and we spent a few days together with our kids and wives and all this and he's he's a he's fluent in Hebrew and he's a he's Jewish and sharp in the scripture you know and he said hey listen you need to take a look at what the word El Shaddai the name el shaddai means you know and when you break it down it literally is the the mighty breasted one like it's like this this this nurturing aspect of God who nurtures and protects its euphemistically meaning yet that there's there are fimo attributes to God someone had got on the comments section and said that is a masculine you know if if women can't lead nobody tell that to the Holy Spirit she'd be ticked let's not use that that because that's that's just again everyone laughed and there's different views here that that's just bad exegesis you know the Holy Spirit's not a woman in any way but there are feminine attributes to God because man and woman are created in God's image yeah and so the extremely gala terraeum would say drop feminine drop a masculine these are all just human yeah are these halogens are divine whatever gender-neutral yeah however they're there are feminine attributes to every male we all came into the the world with both x and y chromosomes we came into the world with with the ability sensitivity is not femininity and and courage and strength is not masculinity however we don't want to feminize males and make them apologize for being masculine yeah neither do we want to cause women call them to toughen up because of their scent like there's a all of us need sensitivity all of us need vulnerability all the strength and courage and boldness yes and furthermore it's not education right we're not saying that especially that second Timothy text when stuck now we're kind of skipping into the the church government realm that women are less educated my since 1991 women have been graduating college more than men the idea that that two-point compliment Aryans are looking at the church in saying well women aren't as smart as men they can't apply these things they're easily they're more easily deceived than men again that's that is a poor two point complementarian argument and I would say that's that's silly and the text does this is an interesting statistic to point complementarian that I'm we know that we don't say that no they wouldn't say that no letting kind of disarming all the other arguments out there there are lots of senior pastors today who are females and this is an interesting statistic is three years old but 77% of female pastors have a seminary degree okay sixty-three percent of male pastors have a seminary degree so more women pastors are degree two they're taking their education and doctrine more seriously than the males are the males are the Western it's and ten percent of senior pastors and Protestant churches are female in 2009 and this is Anglicans Presbyterians and Lutheran's you know the the the the appreciation for the Creed's the historicity of things and they just may give you an example if I asked a man to preach at anchor Church he's gonna do his best to give a good message but I won't forget the very first Mother's Day at anchor and we just started were six months old and I asked one of our female leaders to speak that day she has like six to eight hundred thousand people following her in her business she speaks at corporate platforms all the time all around the world she makes more money than anybody I can oh yeah and she preached that day and she never had a more nerve-wracking week in her life because she's like I know that this is a sacred book I know this is and I speak a lot but preaching I've never felt the weight and the pressure from God to be more careful men for whatever reason are typically sometimes more more more loose with just conversation about God because we're not used to carrying that yeah right and so she comes there and so the appreciation she brought is all the most accurate messages that that that and I'm saying that to say that females tend to take their seminary their training their ordination even more serious because they're for whatever reason there's there's a there's more of an appreciation for the position or the role or the leadership is there they're not it may be not as used to to that so numbers on the screen guys 2 1 4 2 3 3 6 to 9 to call the number jump on the program we have enough time for like a question or two of this I see you guys blowing up the comments section just call in and ask the question I mean they would make life simpler everyone's staying tuned to wait for one of you to call in so here's the thing we're jumping we're probably gonna have to do a part to you there's just no way we got to 12 min we have any text we have really haven't we haven't touched the text we're just trying to disarm the conversation to the best of our ability find as much common ground as possible Before we jump into this that being said you know we have these texts the first Timothy account you know you've addressed quite a few of those items help us with the the adamant was formed first and then Eve there is an argument on the egalitarian side or though maybe the one-point complimentary inside that Eve's desire will to be well before her husband and that the argument is that this is a desire that she will have to rule over her husband and it's part of the fall and that Christ has reversed that would you being in am shocker here letting everyone know that you're a one-point complementarian right so in the home but not in the church well no no that's not in tells you yeah I'm gonna find him like a 1 1 a 3/4 yeah we have a like they are in our in our we have male elders at anchor Church we have some female pastors another differently well I mean let me say this they they are our kids pastor is a female and and so forth so they're weird we're not opposed to women being ordained as pastors and editing in a church could they do the sacraments we they marry in Bury yeah we don't we that there are haven't gone there yet so our process of developing different position papers on that you know and so it'll be fun to see where we land with all that but I know where I land personally on those things as I said like I would let a woman you know be a children's path I would let okay I believe scriptural lots for women to be children's pastors worship leaders youth pastors I would be willing to have that conversation as well again I would think that scripture we should at least talk about that you know would you put me in a similar camp in would you make me at one point well according to way to read them and then really don't greet him a little he wouldn't ordain and that you couldn't call pastors like they they're directors or servants or whatever and there's even a little bit of a differentiation on what age can you teach a male like and so some of these are like you you it's really it's it's really strange like because when you start to try to break that down Paul didn't say that he says women remain silent in the church like any and he says pretty clearly I desire than in every place men should pray lifting up holy hands likewise also the women should adorn themselves with respectable apparel and then he says in verse 12 in 2nd 1st Timothy 2 i do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over man rather she is to remain quiet all right and so that one verse is like what is he saying here like what what is what does teach means do you look at the Greek at teach it's a little bit different word and in this verse he is for what the other words yes so that there's other words for teach and so when you look up that specific word for teach he is specifically say and I am I want you I liken it to aunty right likens this specific text to loot tin he says this is what's happening in this Diana culture you know God Diana and Artemis this what's happening here and when you go to Mary and Martha in the house and the disciples are there one of them sits at the feet of Jesus and is receiving teaching and he says that's the picture that Paul is painting here sit down and receive the teaching of Christ don't try to force your cultural perspective of religion on to the church here in this small house church setting they didn't have platforms and thousands of people it's a small intimate house Church type setting conversational where people are prophesying they're teaching they're speaking in tongues they're given words of knowledge and all these kinds of things it's a home house church type setting and for whatever reason Paul is saying hey listen women whenever you come together I don't permit you to teach or exercise authority over man what does the word teach there it's to actually force it's the word he's used this here is to literally come in like a director of a play it's a play role where you're giving the words that people you're you're not indoctrinating people you're forcing the actual words that people say your your we wait I don't permit you to force your will upon a man now I'm just curious on this is this your argument or is this something you read from some scholar because I mean yeah I started getting into the real meaning of the word teach yes what do you what is the the meaning of the word is Peter skiing is the word yeah dask ein and so it means to teach it's got a very specific and this is NT right you know okay right application in the Greek language it literally means the way in which a Greek dramatic poet taught the actors in a play to say their lines and how to perform the bits of action and so it's it's a it's a it's an instruction word of indoctrinating I don't permit you to indoctrinate a man by force and kind of you can't come and dictate the doctrine of Christ straight from your culture or whatever that may be what he's saying there we don't know that because the Bible didn't say that it just says be quiet right and then the next word that he uses there this kind of controversial is have a floor / and that word is aquitine so the Greek word translated over authority above so it actually is more of a specific meaning and it means to have full power authority over inundate and over power to govern in a manner that uses corrupt power for selfish interest you know it becomes clearer than that Paul say in 2 Timothy and instructing against excesses in specifics here and not a generalized actions among women and you'll see even and more as you consider the culture existed at Ephesus and the time that Paul wrote to Timothy so I'm gonna go back at backtrack just because I'm personally curious you're saying that you're wanting 11.1 planter complementarian but so in that conversation on these these papers that you're doing is there any women involved in the creation of these doctrines oh yeah speaking of which yeah we we are we are we have reached out to multiple women to have a conversation on the show and we are going to continue that conversation piece one of the the our viewers and was very concerned about this and I'm just letting them know there I have reached out to quite a few of them either they haven't responded they've responded and said no we are relatively choosy and having people come on the show we do want the show to be theology and not opinion in speculation so trying to find someone who I don't say specializes in this topic but is is a fluent in this topic is something that's important so if you know of someone that you would like to suggest link them up here we would love to reach out to that this is my official invitation to beth moore you come on the show we would welcome you on the show yes we welcome you show beth moore come on big difference in this right now i would say this like we've set up our government to where you know i we have a plurality of elders right and i don't know of any of our elders that that don't include our wives in some level of conversation with with these kind of things and so by the time we land a position paper on where we stand with women's role and leadership in the church there will be a whole lot of women speaking into that yeah and if we ever you know that's it's really funny uh Tim Woodcock who's been on the show before well that she wrote a comment isn't actually on the visible you I'm just letting you guys know it's hilarious he said jewelry that means in definition of the dress of a female prostitute but because the verbage is so like crass YouTube goes do you want to approve this so that big little ears I'm gonna go ahead and it's show so now it's a visible so you welcome Tim I love Tim he said he's a great nan to point complementarian way in here Tim at one point are you an egalitarian she said you have to get geologists on the ship it's she illusion they see illusion it's a show that's produced by apology radio there's a show called she illusions and they're completely complementarian as in they have what they don't they don't have children's ministry they all have integrated Church so the kids the youth they all come into one corporate assembly women are not permitted to teach in that and they have a women's theological the ology show which is something that's really interesting for those of you who are out there there are two point compliment Aryans it's say in the local church in the and this is my position that I'm learning to articulate is that women are permitted to teach in seminaries they're able to teach in you know theology programs come on shows and have conversations we're what we're looking at is trying to determine does God give a specific role for men to preach on the corporate gathering of the church and to lead the church in areas of church discipline sacraments and ordination yeah we probably need to like focus an entire hour on that yeah on that we've done the one part in I mean we've got like 30 60 seconds to yeah so I'd love to have you back on if you're interested in coming to awesome we're we kind enough so no hurt feelings at the table we know we did and you've enjoyed the program give us a like obviously none of you liked it enough to call in but we'll leave that neither here or there I also go check out Jeff's Church anchor Church out and is it McKinney Texas Yeah right I can't remember it's Alan or McKinney I'm kidding yeah I think you can do download the sermons what's website yeah yeah my anchor Church calm I'm gonna put it in the show notes so you'll be able to download that I also some of you have noticed I put some working definitions of couple materialism the Calot Arianism and I linked up a sixty two page document I forget how many pages it is from the village church Matt Chandler and his guys put together this document I think it's beautifully written me my wife read it she weeped I was moved why did you weep that's the question yeah and enjoy because the idea of being a complementarian if it's not defined well just sounds like guys get to lead the show and women get to do nothing but like this document is very very empowering women prophesy women evangelize but women have like you said grudem cannot with 82 383 3 yes in 1995 he wrote a whole document on 83 things that he sees and I'm like this is where complementarianism gets really weird yeah because you you you're obviously being very selective on what people can do and so it's worth going into what's the difference we're selective on when people can't yeah yeah eighty-three things women can do in church yeah yeah anyway I think it's worth a conversation of looking into you like what what is the purpose of having elders and leadership like what are these just a man-made thing yeah is there anything ordering this in the world and there is for sure and getting really responsible having a really heart for the integrity of doing things in the will of Christ and protecting that there's a they've gotten they've gotten really clear on how they defined what a woman is not authorized in Scripture to do and it's hard to prove that but it's it's worth going through the conversation on why is the United Pentecostal church I mean the Unitarian Church and in other presence in these denominations why are there women bishops in wire why are some churches ordaining homosexuals and why is this gender thing coming up and that's there it does get slippery once you start redefining like some of the words in Scripture and and that's what they're afraid is gonna happen so you start loosening that I think you're saying I mean happening a lot there by finding words theological hurdles that they had they're saying sexuality was cultural and just like slavery was cultural and so all these things are cultural and so when you put everything into a cultural category you end up at the extreme of egalitarianism and then you end yeah yeah so so and I think most both side have a difficult time coming to this text so we're gonna do our best to explain some of this to you maybe we'll have four people on next week and try to unhatched this you know from different positions so that we can really try to hash some of this stuff out it's going to be fun I hope you guys enjoyed it thus far questions comments concerns love letters death threats or anything else you can hit right here in the comment section we'd love to hear from you be blessed we'll see you next time [Music]

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 8,374

Rating: 4.8204083 out of 5

Keywords: Women in ministry, Complementarianism, Egalitarian, Egalitarianism, Complementarian, Can women be senior pastors?, Can Women preach, women Pastors, Can women serve in the ministry?, Female Pastors, the remnant radio, theology podcast, remnant radio, women pastors, complementarian vs egalitarian, complementarian vs egalitarian debate, Women in ministry debate, Christian Feminism, women's role in the church, Christian Theology Podcast, Jeff Jenkins

Id: 8F6ZBW2UpJo

Length: 63min 17sec (3797 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 01 2019