Why U.S. is Pushing “Long War” Strategy in Ukraine War

we need a new system we need a new Society we need to demand that which may have sounded impossible even a few weeks ago but is not only realizable but an imperative [Music] necessity 10 years ago on February 22nd 2014 the United States backed a Neo-Nazi armed militia takeover of the government of Ukraine two years ago on February 24th 2022 the Russian government invaded Ukraine and what Russia calls a special military operation today we're going to talk about Ukraine Russia the proxy war waged by the United States that did not start two years ago but in fact started 10 years ago welcome to this week's episode of the Socialist program I'm your host Brian Becker today we're talking once again with VJ Pasad VJ is the executive director of The tricontinental Institute for social research he's the chief editor of leftward books he's a prolific author most recently publishing a new book with gome Chomsky called the withdrawal Iraq Libya Afghanistan and the fragility of us power VJ prashad welcome back thanks a lot Brian it's great to be with you thank you um as I said VJ in the in the you know this is a second anniversary of the Russian special military operation as the Kremlin calls it uh it's the 10th anniversary of a coup stage by Nazis and I'm not using that as a rhetorical flourish these were armed Nazi militias that toppled a democratically elected government in Ukraine a corrupt government certainly but a democratically elected one that was in 2014 at the same time VJ as we're sort of noting these anniversaries there's another war going on uh the war against the people of Gaza the United n the United States has for the third time in a row vetoed a resolution that insisted that isra Israel stopped the mass Killing Spree against Palestinians in Gaza there's interconnectedness between Palestine Gaza and Ukraine we're going to talk about that there's a lot to cover uh before we do though I want to start with a clip it's President Biden speaking at the United Nations we're going to hear that clip and then I want to play another clip by Tony blinkin where he talks about uh the Middle East and Ukraine and I want to then get your reactions let's start with President Biden note by the way how he looks even a year and a half ago quite different from today I reject the use of violence and War to conquer Nations or expand borders Through Blood Bloodshed to stand against global politics of fear and coercion to defend the Sovereign rights of smaller Nations as equal to those of larger ones okay VJ you know they're all about defending the sovereignty of smaller Nations but I want to get your reaction but first let's hear Anthony blinkin talking about Ukraine in the Middle East and then we'll we'll we'll get started let's let's listen defending Ukraine sovereignty and territorial Integrity is about much more than standing up for one nation's right to choose its own path fundamental as that right is it's also about protecting an international order where no Nation can redraw the borders of another by force the Trump Administration as you know also recognized Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights which Israel captured from Syria back in 1967 uh will your Administration the Biden Administration continue to see the Golan Heights as part of Israel look leaving a side the legalities uh of that uh of that question as a practical matter uh the uh the goal on is very important to uh Israel's security as long as Assad is in power in Syria as long as uh Iran is present well VJ um I don't know go ahead well you know the first thing I want to say is that it is actually quite stunning um that you've chosen these clips to open with um the first concept I want to introduce for people is the concept of the international division of humanity um I mean let's face it um you know the kind of violence being um put upon the Palestinians in Gaza the the the the qualitative uh brunt of violence that they' have been facing is in fact at a different level than the violence in Ukraine you know and you can see that not only in casualty figures but in destruction of physical infrastructure um I mean I I spent some time over the last week looking at Google Earth images from both Gaza and from from the sections the front lines in Ukraine and it's night and day you know in this period for instance as an example the Russians haven't bombed to level cities to to Rubble they haven't bombed kiev for instance to level it to Rubble um I remember the war in Iraq in 2003 the United States destroyed all infrastructure immediately power plants airports were rendered unusable water treatment plants all of them bombed the key infrastructure destroyed um the Russians actually haven't done that in fact it's important for people to know that the airport in Kiev and in fact other Ukrainian airports continue to function that's how Vladimir zinski is able to leave leave the country um somewhere near the southern part of Rafa towards the Egyptian border used to be an old airport that the people of Gaza had it was the Gaza airport um it was towards the side of Rafa that airport has been gone for decades you know bombed out of existence doesn't function there is no airport in Gaza um the level of violence that is been used against the Palestinians mirrors the level of violence that we saw in fuja ramadi parts of Bagdad and so on I mean I'm saying this because of that concept Brian there's an international division of humanity the outrage of Joe Biden speaking at the UN saying you know the sovereignty of our country small Nations and so on I mean for God's sake Joe Biden um you know those lines are going to be played back to you and it is ridiculous that um that more of the media aren't reflecting on you know on the on the tenor of those statements there's an international division of humanity those principles apply to certain countries where the humanity of the people is established the death of one Ukrainian outrageous um the life of one Ukrainian Refugee must be saved the death of 100,000 Palestinians 10,000 pal what whatever the number ends up at not as relevant um the the question of Palestinian displacement not as important here it is very clear that both these gentlemen Mr Biden and his secretary of state Anthony blinkin effectively live with an international division of humanity Consciousness but there's something interesting in the second clip that you picked a demonstration an exacting demonstration by Mr blinkin of how very very quickly principle can be set aside even in his rhetoric and practicalities pragmatisms the conjunctural moment overwhelms everything I mean we're talking about an established issue which is that the Golan Heights are an a part of Syria they were occupied by Israel they are a contested territory it is a established Syrian territory held by the Israelis Mr blinkin doesn't actually uh deny that he acknowledges that but then the great principle of the question of sovereignty and so on he says we don't even need to over interpret it just pick up what he's saying there's a difference between interpreting and elaborating he says he acknowledges to Wolf Blitzer he acknowledges listen um yes okay we acknowledge that this Golan Heights territory is Syrian territory but for practical reason reasons for reasons of geopolitics for reasons of Israel's mil Israel's military Outlook it is inconceivable that the Golan Heights can be handed back to Syria and and he puts of course a a point of of consideration which is as long as Assad is in power in Damascus now that's interesting that Mr blinkin has said that is that established US policy imagine tomorrow Mr Assad decides look I've had enough I'm going to retire take on go back to my opy oologist you know ey doctor um history I don't want to do this anymore imagine how stressful his job is okay he decides and somebody else becomes the president is it then valuable to go back to Mr blinkin to the US government and say well I thought you said to Wolf Blitzer established US policy as long as Mr Assad is there Syria doesn't have a right to its own territory which is occupied by Israel is that really what you meant well no of course because by then they will change the goal posts and say no it cannot so it's very clear on the one side there's an international division of humanity how they talk about Ukraine is much um you know different than how they talk about the Palestinians or the Iraqis or the yemenis or whoever and I want to make a point about Yemen Brian before I I come back to you um which is on this point of the international division of humanity and then the provisional nature of principles you know we have a principle of self-determination or of Integrity of a country except when you don't look at the case of Yemen United States has a diplomatic problem with Yemen The Diplomatic problem is yemenis said we are not going to permit ships to go past our territorial Waters if these ships are carrying weapons to Israel that's what they said and we'll attack them now it's interesting that the United States on principle should have said as they often say rhetorically that we are interested in dialogue and diplomacy Mr Anthony blinkin who has traveled on numerous times to Tel Aviv to talk to people in Tel Aviv numerous times to the emirati the gulf Arab states and so on never flew into saana to discuss with the Yemen government what should be a compromise around Red Sea uh shipping there's an international division of humanity you don't need to talk to the yemenis like they are people you fire Iles on them like they are animals there is no there was no diplomacy from the United States why didn't even a low-level Diplomat fly into saana to ask the yemenis can we have a compromise to this no immediately you got to have military force that is actually emblematic Brian of the international division of of humanity some people you can have a diplomatic conversation with regardless of your principles being uneven or of you withdrawing principles but you still have a diplomatic discussion and others you just fire missiles and I think people need to pay attention to that the firing of a missile on Yemen was not a normal Act of Interstate relations it is an abnormal act which the United States reserves For Those whom it considers Savages whether it's the sudanes when Bill Clinton fired at the alifa pharmaceutical Factory or it's the yenes in the current situation that's the international division of humanity very happy VJ that you framed it that way and in the case of alifa uh pharmaceutical that was bombed in Sudan that was the largest producer of anti-malarial medicine for all of Africa uh or certainly subsaharan Africa one of the biggest killers in Africa but the US bombed it um just they wiped it out is in so-called self-defense because a US Embassy in Kenya was bombed by a terrorist uh entity but they wiped out the pH pharmaceutical Factory that produced antimalarial drugs anyway it is the international division of humanity I'm so glad you framed it that way and just for our audience that may be younger newer maybe watching the show for the first time the Golan Heights was part of Syria and the Israelis seized it in June 1967 in an act of war in an act of aggressive War They seized the West Bank that's how the West Bank became quote occupied They seized Gaza They seized the big part of Egypt there are many many many un resolutions condemning this occupation and today you have based on the international division of humanity also you might call it the division between imperialism and the colonized people of the world or semic colonized people of the world that same division that just keeps going and going uh regardless of the formal end of colonialism uh you know you have the United States government demanding that Israel that the Israeli military be allowed to continue bombing and destroying Gaza and they're destroying as you said VJ they're destroying everything whenever the Israelis conquer a certain part of Gaza they blow the whole thing up they blow up the universities they set demolition um that's not self-defense they're wiping out Gaza and based on this international division of humanity that's cool with the United States government and you know some people in the in the Pro Palestine movement and we're all out in the street say well we want to abandon Biden well that's good I want to abandon Biden too I've never didn't abandon Biden but you can't Abid him abandon him for Trump because Trump will be the same this is really not about this party or that party there is the division between imperialism on the one side and the colonized and semic colonized people of the world or as you have written about over and over again between what we we use in sort of generic terms the global North and the global South if you abstract Gaza or Ukraine from this existing reality of contemporary politics you don't actually understand it you just are looking for who American imperialism in the media says is the villain you should hate next go ahead yeah you know it's interesting because um let's let's go back to the question of Ukraine um this is an interesting conflict um and it's ground down I mean that's the the the immense tragedy of it um you know this language that's used about um you know Russia the aggressor Putin the dictator and so on it's very influential rhetoric I mean recently um you know a opposition figure died in prison um now it's very interesting that even um progressives have to concede that this particular gentleman was an ethn nationalist in an early part of his his career in fact deeply islamophobic um very much a xenophobe and so on um you know and and it may be true what some people are saying that after his arrest he had begun to reflect on his behavior earlier but the political Legacy that he leaves behind is a right-wing fascistic kind of politics very interesting how in the western media and from Western institutions you know foreign Ministries and so on they treating him as a liberal Democrat who has been Savaged by Mr Putin um it's a very disturbing thing to me like the man was a fascist you know uh and whether he was personally a fascist or not is not the point the point is he led a block that had a very large number of fascist and xenophobic islamophobic people in it and you know later in his life as people say well you know he changed his mind but he didn't distance himself from his base which was a fascistic right-wing xenophobic base but I'm not interested in that I don't want to debate Mr naval's politics and so on I'm interested Brian in how they are portraying him they portray this man as a Great Hero um who was killed in prison or died in prison or you know exaggerated statements about the great Democrat and this is a mirror of how the conflict in Ukraine has been talked about um you know in Ukraine as you said said in 2014 there were actual Nazis um conducting a coupar high officials of the United States government Victorian Newland and others in the maidan um in in Kiev uh directing what was happening or at least being part of what was happening and and I want to pause here for a second there's nobody who doubts that Victoria nulan high official of the US government was in the maidan was right there talking to people on the cell phone that was leaked later talking about who should become the next prime minister and why I'm raising this is in um in Syria during the early part of the protests against Mr Assad there were US government officials and British government officials going to these rallies in two cases addressing the rallies just imagine imagine Brian in New York City if a Russian diplomat at any point went to Time Square and and addressed anybody I mean wow or a Chinese Diplomat this would not be taken lightly at all and yet it was seen as perfectly normal that you know Mr John McCain victoriia Newland and others would be right there alongside these Nazis I mean these again like you I don't use this word Nazi as a catchall kind of put down you know it's not an insult this is actually a political description this is the tradition that these people come out of it's the program that they accept and right beside them are us politicians in 2014 um this is exactly the same kind of crowd that they are now trying to turn into Democrats in Russia now again doesn't by by calling them what they are which is Nazis that doesn't exculpate the people they were opposed to you know the government in Ukraine as you say in 2014 has it had its own problems Mr Putin has his own problems but that doesn't mean that if you have problems with Mr Putin you're going to whitewash um the history and political trajectory of Mr Nai and others you know the Stefan Bandera supporters in Ukraine I mean the these people are actually Nazis but it's so interesting that the West at this time is making an alliance with the Nazis in Ukraine and in Russia um against the force es in that territory um it is so interesting and I think I don't want to make a judgment about this but I would very much like people in the United States in Britain and so on to reflect on this that you know you need to recognize that Victor Nasi was not a democratic liberal you know even a right-wing liberal the guy has a base that was suffused with some of the most disturbing characters in Russian political life reflect on that don't read the New York Times obituary and assume that it's the exact obituary of the person I mean Mr naalsi may not recognize himself in that obituary I find that very disturbing how the history the exact contemporary history of our times is being written by these mediocre periodicals and I must say when it comes to the destruction in Gaza you got to give it to the New York Times that they published um B balag gopal professor balag gopal's essay he is a professor at MIT Brian but he's also the UN special reporter on adequate housing and he wrote a very strong piece on Gaza where he called what is happening in Gaza domicide he said 80% of the housing north of Wadi Gaza has been destroyed and in all of Gaza 60% and then he makes a point which is really quite um you know important he says the bombing by the Israelis in Gaza is worse than the Allied bombardment of Dresden worse than the Allied bombardment of Dresden and why this is important is that every young person in the United States in high school is at some point either given to read or encouraged to read the very important book by Kurt vut called slaughter house 5 perhaps one of the most influential anti-war books in the United States and if you haven't read it friends if you still got it sitting in your parents apart apartment from your high school years and you didn't bother to crack it call Mom call Dad go back home get that book out read slaughter house 5 and remember that balagopal says that the Israeli bombing in Gaza now is worse than what Kurt vut so honestly and provocatively described in his terrific slaughter house 5 they are rewriting contemporary history and somehow they're getting away with it we can't let them get away with it no very good point and and vanaga was a prisoner of war um there in Dresden and so he comes up after the firebombing which was basically just an experiment and the whole city is gone and completely incinerated um you know while the the navali and his crew had at least a part of their their past was openly fascist and whether he moved on or not the Articles VJ in the New York Times I I was just looking through them the four first four articles in the New York Times were about Naval naval's wife naval's the future of naval's opposition in Russia and like Gaza was the ninth story this the death of this one man what whatever the circumstances and we don't know the circumstances we're not pretending to know the circumstances there are there are other I want to go back to the 2014 coup and the points that you made about Victoria newand and we saw some bclip there b-roll there where you could see John McCain then alive one of the top Republicans in the US Senate he was with Victoria nulan this was a bipartisan effort to overthrow the yanukovich government again a corrupt government not a left government but a government that had professed neutrality and insisted that Ukraine would never join NATO that was his sin in the eyes of the West now what happened in maidan in the center of Kiev was protest started in the fall of 2013 and they weren't all let you know Nazis probably 90% of the people were had other grievances they weren't part of the azof Battalion or other the right sector or other right-wing forces but the Nazis played a disproportionate role in a decisive role and they actually at the end LED this armed Insurrection now the armed ins ction happened on February 22nd 2014 the day before an agreement was signed between the Ukrainian government and the opposition and there was a meeting of international observers including the United States and the Putin government in Russia was in the signing room on February 21st the Ukrainian government Under Pressure um decided to withdraw police from Kiev and they also agreed to early election and decentralized Power in Ukraine meaning that they were giving into the the opposition demand so on February 21st they signed an agreement there was a memorandum and all and and the next day the Ukrainian government pulls the police out of downtown Kiev and the Nazis who uh are armed to the teeth and represent maybe 10% of the protesters in in maidan they stormed the parliament they dispersed the parliament the president runs for his life he flees now I we have a a video clip of the Nazis these are Nazis they're not pretending to be something else they are Nazis they say we are Nazis we are proud to be Nazis I want to play this little clip for you VJ because they talk about their role in maidon and anyway let's play it and then I I'll get your comments for I don't know if you could read all the subtitles VJ but they say yeah um yeah we were only 10% but we were the decisive 10% well let me take you on a little journey before 2014 to um tarid Square in 2011 just to amplify the point made by that gentleman um you know millions of people in Egypt were upset with the government of hos Mubarak I mean there had been a Spate of privatizations there was now a plan to effectively make the Mediterranean Coastline Alexandria and so on into a playground for the rich to create a kind of tourist Paradise for Northern Egypt people are upset there was I I I knew many of the people who went into not only tar square but into various kind of protests in Egypt at the time there a range of forces involved um the most active people confronting the police were not some of these forces but were the young ored kids of the street who lived in in the great cemeteries you know they were the ones throwing rocks at the cops and they knew how to fight the police they spent their whole short lives fighting the police but there was only one organized force in the tar Square um yes the trade unions for Mahala in the textile area did come into the square but they came they gave their solidarity they left when the forces of the government attacked wearing uh civilian clothing you know they came in uh very violently there was only one force that defended that square and it was very clear that that force was going to act as the Vanguard and that was the Muslim Brotherhood they came as a political party they had meetings and discussions about how to lead the process inside the square um they defined the media strategy why because even though they may not have been everybody in the Square they were an organized block and then when it came to the question of Elections afterwards they swept up um the advance of the uh of the tar square and they won the election and Mohammad Mory became the the the president he was subsequently overthrown and killed by the current government of Mr CCE but that's a separate issue the point is the uprising in the Arab Spring was not defined by a million autonomous people a small organized force can play a decisive role role and we don't even need we didn't even need to go uh to Tar Square for this Brian your show is called the Socialist program we could have gone backwards to 1917 to the role played by the Bolsheviks again a small force of people highly dedicated highly organized came in there understood the nature of the mass Uprising the difference between the Bolsheviks and what happened in thari square and what that gentleman was saying happened is in the man is very instructive the Bolsheviks did not impose their political ideas upon the protest taking place from St Petersburg to eatan BG uh they did not they actually drove an agenda that was alongside the public sentiment their demands were very much alongside public sentiment land end the war bread and so on those were the slogans coming from the vast Mass it's just that the bolik organized the sentiment of the vast Mass used their experience in fact to strengthen the vast Mass's political feelings the difference in T and in Euro in the maidan from uh the balic revolution of 1917 is very important in both tar square and in the maidan a small organized Force whether it's 10% and I think he was being a little um in generous to himself I think there were more than 10% in that square but nonetheless whether it's 10 12 15 doesn't matter the point is a small section the Nazi element in Ukraine and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt they imposed their Politics on the masses of people in the case of of tar square and in Egypt more generally the Muslim brother imposed their politics they said this Mass Uprising is a good moment for us to impose our politics of piety on the society so Mr morsy comes in and imposes an agenda of piousness upon people that was not what they were protesting about in other words unlike the Bolsheviks they had an imposition of their own ideology on the mass struggle and the same thing in Ukraine you're right there were other forces in the maidan there were some maybe genuine liberals there were also people of the left in the maidan I had friends who participated in it and so on but they did not Define the maidan and the force that basically helped shape the politics once the maidan became effective once the coup happened that Force imposes their their Politics on the country it's not that they have the generosity of spirit to reflect the wide uh nature of the struggle of where people are in this at what level they are in at that point they put their Politics on top of of of the country and that was the bandism I mean that is why you started seeing more and more laws Banning Russian speech and so on that is the imposition of this fascistic um you know anti- Democratic spirited Nazi element that was very much anti-russian that impos their Politics on everybody so he's right it's of course nobody ever says it's 100% Nazis that's ridiculous neither of us have ever said anything like that but what I will say is that small organized forces can dis proportionately play a role in in in a in a in an event like this in a spontaneous Outburst the test of how you measure the politics is how this small Force behaves as a Vanguard in terms of everybody else and in the case of of Egypt and in Ukraine this small Vanguard the Muslim Brotherhood and the banderites and other neo-nazis imposed their narrow views on the public something that the Bolsheviks never did in 1917 onwards there's the leadership in the square in maidon 10 years ago that were protesting um the the yanukovich government and again as you said there were liberals there were people some on the left mainly representing the western part of Ukraine meaning the non-russians speaking part of Ukraine and Ukraine is very divided linguistically uh but you have this leadership that's fascist and that's armed and so they can be decisive as the Nazis who we listen to or if you could read subtitles if you're watching the show they say it explicitly we were decisive now there's another leadership behind the protest and that's the US government in the EU and you mentioned Victoria newand and we saw the picture of John McCain in maidan in Ukraine now I want to play another clip it's V it's the famous call between Victoria newand and the US ambassador uh to kav to Ukraine this is right before the fascist coup right before the government is toppled and you hear Victoria nulan talking about who the never new government is going to be so you know when we say it was a nazil couet some people are saying are you saying the US is supporting Nazis I'm saying the US actually doesn't care who it uses in terms of the human material at a given moment it's another leadership it has another agenda its agenda was not the same but it was willing to use Nazis to topple the government because the goal was to topple the government then they could move on and reshape the government and make it essentially a proxy government a right-wing government but more important than anything a proxy of America basically a puppet government and we know VJ now in Ukraine there's martial law people who favored better relations with Russia those political leaders they're in jail zalinski canceled the elections no elections can happen as long as martial law exists that's part of Ukraine's Constitution so it's a police state anyway here's the leaders behind the leaders the leaders behind the Nazis this is that famous call with Victoria nulan right before the coup talking to the US ambassador and she is from the secret she is from the state department she was Hillary Clinton's press spokesperson when Clinton became Secretary of State she's still a major player in American politics let's listen I don't think CLE should go into the government I don't think it's necessary I don't think it's a good idea I think yats is the guy who's got the economic experience the governing experience he's he's the guy you know what he needs is clech and tonny book on the outside he needs to be talking to them four times a week you know I I I just think kleich going in he's going to be at that level working for yats and it's just not going to work so that would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the un help glue it and you know the EU um go ahead VJ I mean I'm sorry you know what does one to say okay um once this call was released um you know government started to try to shift the debate about who hacked her phone and who released it um no nobody denied that this is an authentic call okay till now nobody has suggested There Was You Know AI used to generate the call this is this is how they talk and the the line about the European Union is rattling because um it just demonstrates the European Union and in fact Europe the subordinate or the contempt with which the US government looks at Europe and by the way these are the Democratic minded people Democratic party people who are supposed to have a less harsh attitude towards Europe than the Republicans I mean Trump was openly contemptuous of the European governments right openly he said you guys don't spend enough in fact recently we're not going to defend you if you don't spend enough on your own defense openly contemptuous um but look this is somebody who worked for Mrs Clinton and as if not more contemptuous you know completely dismiss it how she talks about that the UN must be used I mean I remember talking to friends who work in the United Nations Secretariat the cringe you know the whole building shuddered when they listen to that that that that tape because it's true you know I have a story told to me by butas bras Gali who was a one-term Secretary General at the United Nations butas Gali said that you know um after the United States said that he would not have a second term he was quite upset he was a distinguished Egyptian um Diplomat he had a very tough brief Brian I know people are down on Brutus Gali but he became the Secretary General when the Soviet Union collapsed he had to deal with an immense you know Push by the us to go and Destroy Iraq in 91 and and so on he had a very difficult brief I actually feel for him he was an old nasar right um in a difficult position but what he said was after the US government had told him that he was not going to be the Secretary General again they dismissed him um meline Albright then the US ambassador to the UN came to lunch in his house in bras gali's beautiful apartment in New York and said to him there um can you help me what should I do next with my career and I remember hearing this story thinking my God the both the contempt that the United States High officials have for others and then the blindness about their contempt the fact that having dismissed bras Gali like a servant you then go and ask him can you give me some career advice absolute tonee blindness you know um the way Vicky nulan says well the UN can be brought in to stitch this up I mean the cringe in the UN building you know because people in the UN don't want to think of themselves as effectively clean up men and clean up women for the United States Imperial policy anywhere in the world let alone in in in in Ukraine but I must say this has become a problem for the UN this is how they were used in Afghanistan uh at the in the period of the US occupation of Afghanistan they were used as cleanup people you know they were brought in to sort of take care of this or that aspect uh us error they come in you know to clean up afterwards but the really key part in that leaked message is what comes before the contempt for the U EU European union and this sort of cringeworthy statement about the UN and that's a key part the part that comes before when where you know Victoria Newland is actually and you're quite right the the neo-nazis or the Nazi element were the foot soldiers and then while the Nazis are out there throwing fire bombs and saluting their old hitlerite salute and so on yesi is on a cell phone deciding the next government of Ukraine and not only deciding the next government of Ukraine Brian but I well remember listening to this tape think my God these people are Shameless you're you're deciding who will be the next president of Ukraine but you're also deciding whether they are competent and who should be their advisors I mean it's at a level of of puppeteering okay I mean I can't think of any other word Brian a level of puppeteering which in any other human being would have been a deep embarrassment but for somebody like Victoria nulan or people in the Biden White House now I don't think they are embarrassed about this this is a tragedy of of the kind of moral collapse of of us leadership there's no embarrassment you know I mean for God's sake Victoria nulan you should have denied the phone call had been made you should have said that's not me it's hacked it's AI you know some you know doctor tape they didn't deny anything they just said well that's the way it is and I want to remind people that you know yesterday the day before I'm talking to you Brian was the hearing in Britain over the case of Julian Assange whether he should be extradited to the United States it was very instructive for me Brian and I'm not a naive person you know I have a pretty good sense of the hardboiled nature of power but going through the US state department cables that had been released by Wikileaks um you know now again about I don't know a dozen years ago um going through those cables reading the cables from Pakistan from Egypt countries that had special interest in it was cringeworthy to listen to the US officials talk about their counterparts you know and and here something important because you said and I think you're right that the these are puppeteers the United States was the one in fact who uh engineered this at a high level but even inside the US apparatus it's very interesting who's in charge um I was surprised I remember reading Margaret scobby Ambassador um you know to I think Pakistan or Egypt uh sco's dispatches to DC so writes in her dispatches she says you know I'm the Ambassador and yet these three star four star five star generals show up in town and I am supposed to accompany them to meetings with high officials in these countries and I sit there in these meetings like a stenographer that's a high US ambassador writing that and why I want to put this in there is even within the confines of the US government there's a hierarchy you know you don't have I mean Victoria nand is not just a diplomat she's a military Diplomat um you can almost picture her putting that phone call off and calling somebody in in the Pentagon ordering a drone strike I mean you know they have a different attitude um to to to other countries in the world we don't like the yenes we're going to bomb them we don't like the government in Ukraine which just going to get rid of them and yats and all these little ways of talking about people we're going to get Tony Brook coming in he's going to advise he'll suffocate this fellow keep him in check meanwhile if there's a problem we're just going to yank the Nazis back onto the street um create more commotion and Chaos it's no it's no surprise that we use terms like hybrid War um you know information war and so on these things are real you know they are not the paranoid fictions of a Ranter this is how history actually happens fellas I'm sorry to say so I'm sorry to bring this news to you um but history doesn't happen by you know decent people with using reason and and the power of persuasion to convince each other of this or that position Unfortunately n chsky is right the US government increasingly acts like The Godfather if you don't follow orders we're going to whack you um we're going to threaten to whack you in order to give you a little space to discipline yourself to stop defying us to obey us but if you continue your Defiance if you continue Disobedience we're going to whack you because we are The Godfather you know the first time chsky used that expression I was like a little skeptical of it I thought well it's a little too cute but you think about it Brian it's it's obviously not he's not making an Institutional point this is not a sociological observation right he's not defining the US government is not like the mafia sociologically or institutionally this is a point about a culture about how people behave and listening to Vicky Newan it's important important we don't get stuck with what she's saying about whom got to also read the culture of that phone call the godfa mafia attitude behind it I pick that guy that guy is going to be obedient to me and if he's disobedient let's call the Nazis and let's Whack Him and that guy yats yat yats is the guy she said that's yats and yuk and he did become the Prime Minister uh shortly thereafter so uh they knew exactly what they were do doing a western us trained Economist um I want to play a couple more video clips because you know now we have 10 years to look back on for the coup two years to look back on from the war we've learned a lot so we have the leaders behind the leaders there's the Nazi leaders in Ukraine behind them is Victoria nulan the big leaders the imperialists and and as you're saying she's a military Diplomat in other words it's really the military State some people call it the Deep State whatever it's the state it's the state of us imperialism uh and it's inner workings and how it sees the world and functions and we get this brief Glimpse at the how they really are thinking and talking then there's another group of leaders um who are the capitalists like like Larry thinkink for instance billionaire pundit uh black um Black Rock uh here's he he's talking about what things were like right after the Russians decided enough is enough we're not going to allow Ukraine to be brought into NATO Russia had amassed hundreds of thousands of troops Larry I I want to play this clip because he's he's actually he's another group of leaders these are the capitalists because the state is functioning as the as The Operators the managers of a of an global apparatus for Empire but the capitalists actually know about that apparatus but they mainly care about profit and I want to play this because it t Larry thinkink is paying attention it's how he views Ukraine Russia and the breakup of the Soviet Union because without the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991 none of this would be happening there would be no war right now it was the dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic republics of which Russia was the biggest and Ukraine was the second biggest without that event this would not be happening let's listen to Larry Frink and then I want to get your your thoughts since 1990 the with the dismemberment of the Soviet Union um the world benefited from this incredible peace dividend absolutely and this peace dividend created opportunities for American firms worldwide we expanded globally we we you know we were able to expand and build and and do amazing things and as did other countries were able to do that but also importantly you know we raised the standard of living for the entire world that peace dividend is now over uh well it's not a peace dividend that Larry fin is worried about those are just that's sort of like hippie dippy peace talk he's talking about the expanding business opportunities and the fact that after the collapse of the Soviet Union the US was basically took all of Russia's allies in Eastern and Central Europe and Incorporated them into an American sphere of influence under a US military alliance called NATO but that opened up the door for American corporations and not simply in Europe but also in in the southern republics of the former Soviet Union and in of course in Russia itself and Larry fin is saying that era that Great era which he calls a peace dividend which might be called the capitalist dividend uh that era has come to an end with Russia's Invasion and I agree in one way not with Larry fin but his assessment that Russia's Invasion actually does demarcate the end of one era and the beginning of another era we don't know the new era has been given different names we we can talk about that we don't really know what its outcome is because we're still living in the beginning stages of it but I want to talk to you about that uh and then we'll we'll actually have a couple more Clips well the first thing is I would challenge Larry frin um chronology because I think it all began to change at the beginning of the third gr depression which starts in 2007 the financial crisis and so on Putin goes to Munich and says not one single master and what you see is you see a different kind of Putin in Russia different Coalition of forces they start cracking down on some of the oligarchs um they you know even jail some of them these oligarchs by the way then become the opposition the political opposition in fact they were upset because um their capitalist dividend was being taken away from them you begin to see also Russia pivot towards the Chinese economy um start to move towards attracting Chinese investment rather than um than than us investment Central Asian countries the former as you said Southern republics of the USSR a move towards the belt and Road initiative from 20123 once it's established formally in 2013 and you begin to see Larry Finks billions in Black Rock finding a contest that now Chinese investment firms are entering Russian investment firms many of them State firms firms seized back from the oligarchs start to intervene and and that's the beginning of the contest very interesting when the war broke out in 20 22 Mr Frink uh Larry himself started a direct and open relationship with Vladimir zilinski he goes and meets Mr zilinski in Kiev they have a series of meetings in November 2022 um Black Rock black rock mind you and the Ukrainian government signed a memorandum of understanding which was not much discussed in the western media but it was put up on the ministry of e economy in Ukrainian government on their website um they have a memorandum of understanding where Black Rock Says it'll undermine it'll underwrite the entry of Wall Street um to invest in Ukraine then Mr Pink um in I think early January of 2023 goes to Davos to the world economic Forum makes a speech at Davos talks about the immense economic opportunities of rebuilding in Ukraine and so on becomes a major Ally of Mr zinski in fact I would say a kind of Wall Street Diplomat for Ukraine if there were a position like that would be Larry Frink um they are interested partly Brian in pushing back against the entry of Chinese and to some smaller extend Russian Capital into these territories which they had thought was their own um this is the problem they are facing in countries like Hungary Poland and so on big economies where they had had a free run you know for a period but now they are facing a contest to domestic capitals that want themselves to have a privileged role I mean Victor Orban is not a creature of international Capital as much as he is of the emerging new capital in his own country you know a Hungarian small Hungarian capitals emerging able to underwrite Mr oran's nationalism a nationalism of the kind of somebody like Orban it's not just an ideological thing you know they use terms like populism and so on no you got to look under underneath that um he is actually lifted up by a set of Hungarian capitalists who know very well that they cannot compete um with black rock and so on and they are seeking forms of protection um this is strange this is not import substitution industrialization of the 1950s you know the the sort of thing written about by rul preit the first Secretary General of the UN conference on trade and development this is a different kind of you know right-wing protectionism but none protectionism some of it not protectionism India where Mr adani is a close partner of of of Mr Modi he Mr adani the big big giant billionaire owner of the adani group who owns ports in Israel and in Greece and so on Mr adani is using India's power to gain mercantilist advantage over over other business people outside India's borders so you know this is part of what Mr fin is contesting firms like Black Rock want to find new markets and my God this war provided him with a great opportunity to appear not like a predatory capitalist but as a great Diplomat and a great Democrat and he comes out there and says we will help rebuild Ukraine but come on Larry I mean you know we've been through this dance before I mean Larry you are not interested in rebuilding Ukraine you are interested in Black Rock perhaps using Ukraine a little bit like the Bush Administration wanted to use Iraq remember Iraq was to be the laboratory for kind of neoliberal state in the Arab world for NATO and the gulf Arab countries Libya was to be a laboratory they said we want to make Kuwait on the Mediterranean um and now for Mr thinkink um Ukraine a laboratory for a neoliberal Eastern Europe clawed back from Chinese capital and Russian Capital but it's not going to work work it didn't work in Iraq it didn't work in Libya and I very much doubt that Mr fin even if he makes Investments is making long-term Investments to develop Ukraine these are going to be predatory Investments because guess what guys black rock that is a predatory firm that is not a firm that makes long-term productive Investments That improve people's lives when we think about war VJ we think a lot of it a lot of times about the geostrategic positioning competition maneuvering jocking but it's so helpful that you're framing this properly that behind the war this war and these wars are class interests and in the case of Larry thinkink and the other capitalists they are seeing geostrategic politics sort of with one thing in mind which is how to strengthen their own Market position their own share to take somebody else's Market Mark and these contemporary Wars are you know as Lenin pointed out uh the the wars at least waged by the Western capitalist powers and Japan Wars about division and redivision of markets and and clearly I I think you're absolutely right and this is what's missing in a lot of political analysis is the class Viewpoint we are the Socialist program we're working out of a Marxist framework so for us we see as Mark saw that beneath the the the language the the speeches the ideologies and philosophies of different political players there are class interests there are real class interests the interests of the capitalist in the case of Larry fin here's an article from yesterday uh talking about class interests VJ uh because Biden is having trouble selling the the new bill through Congress through the house of represent representatives to give another $60 billion to Ukraine the article the headline is very revealing it says Biden wants people to know most of the money he's seeking for Ukraine will be spent in the United States and then you read the first paragraph and it turns out that 40 of the $60 billion doll 40 will never leave the United States it's all for us weapons manufacturers and then they talk about this Factory in New Jersey and this Factory in Ohio and this Factory the M this is a jobs program an inefficient jobs program because producing missiles and the weapons of mass destruction are capital intensive they're not labor intensive they don't need that many workers but they make a lot of money because it's guaranteed profits and if we think also about these wars and take away the element the class interest of the American capitalists who benefit from war who see even the war in Gaza what are they really thinking they're thinking like Israel's using up all of its bombs and missiles that means they're going to buy more of them and where are they going to come from they're going to come from us the American taxpayers are going to subsidize them through quote Aid to Israel but that too will be money that much of it will never leave the United States again these are rich men's War we that's not rhetoric that's not rhetoric that's actually reflective of the class nature of this imperial system well you know what you describe in that article that's called that is that's actually there's a technical term for that um there's a literature a scholarly literature on it it's called tied Aid like you tie something up tied Aid tied Aid is merely when a donor country says I am going to magnanimously give you aid but in fact I'm tying my giving of the aid to you uh being obliged to buy goods and services for my country um you know um the oecd the organization of economic cooperation and development this is a a body based in Europe of the advanced industrial countries the oecd countries the oecd has published a series of reports Brian one of them an important report I read a few years ago called untying Aid where the oecd countries United States a member of this body says that it's unhealthy for development of any kind to be tied because of the costs involved so for instance there was a book some years ago you probably read it Brian confessions of an economic Hitman where he described in a chapter the building of a power plant in Indonesia by beel Corporation and because of TI a the power plant had to be built using materials produced in the United States which meant that this power plant in Indonesia was like 100 times more expensive than it it would have been had there not been a tie a provision if beel had been a even beel had been able to Source steel from India or even Indonesia other chemicals from Southeast Asia and so on the cost of building the power plant much lower and by the way who bore the bill for building that power plant there was tide aid but the in large part of the investment came from the Indonesian government so they get stuck paying off loans was something that was more expensive than it could have been because of Tide Aid and in this case it's obscene because again you're saying well we're going to support the W effort in Ukraine come on you know let's be clear When Vladimir zalinski came to Washington DC the most well attended meeting he had was with all the leaders of the arms companies because they are very grateful for this they know that most US military aid not all of it but most US military aid is Tide aid United States says to Israel we're going to give you so much billion dollars of Weaponry what it means is we're going to ship you billions of dollars of Weaponry from our arms uh companies it's a it's actually a buried subsidy to the US arms industry um this is in fact an illegal trade device that you pretend it's a but you're actually subsidizing your arms industry with Ukraine it's appalling Brian and I'm very worried about this in fact I know it's a terrible situation now but the Biden Administration is trying to push through a bill that allows tactical missiles to go to Ukraine now these tactical missiles are exactly what Mr Putin has been saying I don't want to see those so close to the Russian border and and I I want to take this opportunity to say I think it was terribly naive of mik gorbachov and Edward shabazi um to accept a handshake agreement with James Baker when Germany was reunited to have that handshake agreement that NATO would not go one inch Eastward of the German border because it was naive I mean why would you trust um the United States and the NATO countries to abide by that that that that agreement they they violated the agreement almost immediately um and not only that did NATO move Eastward and I'm I'm very upset that people say this is a Putin talking point for God's sake uh use some rationality you know no country would accept having tactical missiles of any kind nuclear or conventional right on their border within firing distance of their capital and no country would accept that no country would accept that if you also have high officials of the country that's placed the missile at your border making statements such as we want to weaken that country we want to overthrow that government you're making verbal threats and then you're placing tactical missiles at the border my God the combination is insan it would make any government upset this is not a talking this is not a Putin talking point it's a very unfortunate way of of stopping a discussion and debate no country would accept language like that combined with tactical missiles sitting at the border and that's exactly what the Biden Administration is trying to ramp through the US Congress some Republicans are holding it up I think to some extent on partisan grounds and so on but I very much hope it doesn't pass because not only is this a boondoggle for the arms industry in the US lot of money going to them but this is a further provocation at a time when same San people should be talking about the need for a peace deal in Ukraine um you know I know that the front line is changing I know that the Russians have made some advances but Russia is in fact I don't believe interested in making enormous advances they don't want to take Kiev you know it's very clear that they don't want to occupy all of Ukraine um they have said that they want to hold the parts that are now within Russia and they want to have an agreement to den naify k um that's where they are in terms of their negotiating points so these small gains made at the border shouldn't change anybody's mind that the necessity of a ceasefire and a political process in Ukraine is absolutely imperative at this point and sending tactical missiles um into Ukraine not only near Ukraine but into Ukraine would be such a dangerous provocation and Mr Biden is playing with fire if he does that playing with the fate of the world I don't mean to say it in some exaggerated way but I feel that I feel that Mr Biden is threatening the fate of humanity by trying to push these nuclear or these tactical missiles into Ukraine if we look at that map uh VJ the the pink orange area those are the areas that the Russians have controlled they're the areas close to Russia so you have Crimea and then you have the donbass you have basically a land bridge uh connecting essentially the Russians speaking parts of eastern Ukraine the the parts that were targeted by the government in Kiev after the 2014 coup after that new government said Russia is no longer like an official second language and just for people who in America who don't really get it I mean Ukraine Kiev the capital of Ukraine was the capital of Russia from uh 849 to 1240 in other words 261 years about the same time that the United States has existed as a country KV was the capital of Russia Ukraine only becomes a Ukrainian state in 1922 and then it's with Russia as one of the socialist republics in the USSR Ukraine only becomes completely independent in 1991 and then the US stages or supports as we've gone through in this show AUD d'a toppling a government that had promised to stay out of NATO and bringing in a government that promised to go into NATO thus allowing tactical weapons to be placed on Russia's border and we know VJ the Russians had said over and over again that's a red line we're not going to allow it they amassed 100,000 troops in uh in the East and northern part above Ukraine they were threatening to come in and there was a very passive sort of serene response BL blinkin and suvan kept saying Yeah the Russians are going to invade yes the Russians are going to invade and but they didn't do anything to rush back to the negotiating table to prevent an invasion because they wanted the invasion they thought this was going to be the final uh do Ma so to speak of Russian influence in that area area and they also thought it would weaken Russia I want to before we end and I'm going to give you the last comment here I want to play two quick clips this is Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin talking about what the real goal is and and everybody should notice it's think about his words it's not about a tender place in his heart about ukrainians and then I want to go to a final clip which is Anthony blinkin talking in the same coldhearted way sort of naked imperialist way about the destruction of the nordstream pipeline that brought Russian natural gas and other Russian energy sources to Europe anyway let's start with Lloyd Austin I think we have that clip we want to see Russia U weakened uh to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that uh it has done in in invading Ukraine okay so there's the Secretary of Defense we want Russia weakened okay like just straight out now this is the final clip and we're going to give you the last word here VJ and it goes to something that you in particular but the whole team at tricontinental uh have been writing a lot about which is the US seeing the Ukraine war as an instrument to maintain domination over Europe over their so-called allies the other major capitalist Powers anyway here's Anthony blinkin everybody listen to this and then VJ just pick it up afterwards ultimately um this is also a tremendous opportunity it's a tremendous opportunity to Once in for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing uh his uh Imperial designs uh that's very significant and that offers tremendous um strategic opportunity for um for the years to come they talk he's talking VJ about a terrorist bombing of a pipeline that is supplying all of Europe with that which Europe needs to heat its homes he was like well look uh great strategic opening anyway you get the last word well let's let's pause with his word use of the word weaponized um historically at least in the last 50 years United States has weaponized Finance systems um the entire sanctions policy against 20 30 countries around the world is a weaponizing of of what of finance weaponizing of the Swift system which should be inviolable um the United States has weaponized the digital infrastructure just cut off countries from access to um to the internet you know uh slowed down internet times and so on because 10 out of the 13 DNS route servers go through the United States weaponization of normal policies of life is a familiar thing with the United States government um has Russia weaponized uh energy well of course it's a major power it has played games with energy let's not deny it India weaponizes the fact that Nepal is landlocked every time there's a conflict between India and Nepal they shut the border down countries do this thing to each other you know you can deal with it that's why we have diplomacy diplomacy is the art of dealing with um the exaggerated response of one country to the other but what we're seeing now from the United States government is actually worse than the weaponization of energy what the US government has done is they have made Europe a reliant upon liquefied natural gas from the United States and I want people to think about this Europe used to get its natural gas to a great extent from Russia through the pipelines land pipelines and northstream 2 also land pipelines going through Ukraine um this was cheaper and by the way better for the environment because you're just piping natural gas through pipelines when you liquefy natural gas you have to convert a gas into a solid carry it across the Atlantic on a ship get it off the ship in Hamburg and Rotterdam and so on put it back into the gaseous State all of this requiring an immense amount of energy and then pipe it into people's homes it's more expensive and it's worse for the planet and here you have Mr blinkin a government which supposedly is worried about the environmental catastrophy U basically subordinating Europe to the energy provision from the United States where there is no pipeline across the Atlantic Ocean and I don't think at the present moment we have the capacity to build a pipeline like that and it would be incredibly dangerous to build undersea under ocean pipeline of that length to send natural gas you don't have that and it would be so expensive you know it it is actually practical for Europe to rely on Russian natural gas that's a practicality uh you can negotiate the details you know these are grown countries but no the interest in Breaking the link with Russia weakening Russia Lloyd Austin and uh you know Trump earlier going to Nato headquarters and saying to Yen stoltenberg's face the head of NATO saying that look uh we can't do two things we can't defend you and have you pour billions of dollars into the Russian Arsenal for energy uh we can either defend you or or you can um you know be reliant on Russian energy that's what Trump said to Yen stoltenberg it's always puzzled me people say he's Pro Russia don't get it from his actual diplomatic dealings with Russia but the point is here very clear these are cynical men with a cynical agenda when Mr Austin says weaken Russia he said that in 2022 when he went to Kiev it's a dangerous comment to make Russia is whatever you think of the government a powerful nuclear nuclear weapon state you don't play these games with powerful countries you find every every way to negotiate with them you don't fear the subordination of Europe to Russia and China and think the antidote to that subordination is accelerate a conflict with Ukraine and bring bring us close to Planetary Annihilation and that's precisely what Biden has done precisely what Austin and blinken have done they have played essentially high stakes poker with the world the fate of the world and that's where we are and I very much hope that after the second anniversary of the Russian entry into Ukraine The Invasion joint military operation whatever they call it looks like an invasion to me um after 2 years of this I very much hope that Sint people will call for a ceasefire a political negotiation a discussion that will leave everybody with something uh of dignity as they live close to each other frankly Ukraine cannot be moved to live in the midwest somewhere it has to live next to Russia the Ukrainian people are going to have to have some agreement and understanding with the people of Russia it's better they start that discussion now than let this degenerate further that they become per adversaries with their neighbors and VJ undoubtedly the people in Ukraine want to end the war uh zalinski and his team and the American Arms manufacturers and Biden and most of the Republicans want to keep it going um the I saw articles recently where they the US government says their main concern is that ukrainians are becoming casualty averse meaning they don't want their sons to die in this disgusting terrible meat grinding kind of War obviously Ukraine won't win obviously there needs to be a negotiated end of the war uh we've been saying from the beginning a negotiated solution was at hand prior to the conflict prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine the US scuttled it uh you know people have to be objective VJ I want to thank you so much I want to also encourage people to go to your website I asked you about it last time now I remember the name and maybe we can put it up on the screen it's th tricontinental dorg the tricontinental dorg uh VJ prashad thank you so much thanks a lot Brian anytime

Channel: BreakThrough News

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Length: 75min 46sec (4546 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 22 2024