"Why I joined the Hasidic community" | Sara Braun's story

I literally had the world at my feet I have a whole family that supports me no matter what I decide to do why in the world would I want to become a city for me it just aligns with minor Shoma it really honestly does everybody like stares at me like and I would like to smell myself everybody whatever and they try to carefully figure out what I was doing there and and was I they wanted to know the story I am so delighted to talk to Sarah Braun or as she goes informally Suri who grew up with a Jewish non-observant mother in the Netherlands at 18 entirely on her own with little money Sarah came to New York City where she became deeply engaged with the Jewish Community eventually after being drawn to more and more culturally Rich Jewish spheres she wound up in the most unusual of circumstances an outsider in the homes of the most insular families welcomed by the wives of the major insular Hasidic leaders and welcomed into the fold Sarah's wedding was held in the acidic Traditions attended by important acidic dignitaries and she soon had children who she sent to Orthodox Jewish schools Sarah recently wrote a book about her life titled the black acidic lady A Memoir of a dark-skinned Hasidic woman and I'm so delighted that she's here today to talk about the book and her life so welcome sorry we're gonna go by sorry right there but yes absolutely thank you for welcoming me how's it going with the book is how long did it take you to write it that you just probably it was like published three days ago correct correct yes it took me a good three years to write it with you know many passes in between um but yeah it took me a long time wow I wanna I wanna hear your extraordinary life stories let's start from the very beginning can you tell me about your childhood up until you came to New York at 18 just a little bit briefly oh um sure so I grew up in um a very rural area in the Netherlands it's called the babester um if you see a picture of Holland of windmills and Farmers with wooden shoes that was our life pretty much I used to wear wooden shoes actually um we had a beautiful house and a lot of animals um and a lot of farms around us I used to help on help on farms a lot and um I grew up with my parents and my three siblings I am the youngest of four um I yeah I was very spoiled very assertive always on my way um and my mother was very lovey-dovey and Huggy and my father was the complete opposite so I had a very close relationship with my mom still do and with my father not so um so we lived there everything was beautiful perfect and fine and when I was about 12 years old we moved to um a neighborhood in Amsterdam where most Jews actually lived and Frank is actually from that neighborhood um and um that's that's the first time when I was thinking Okay so they are Jews here and I'm Jewish so what about it because back in the Bane sir you know being Jewish was not so it's not so nice to be Jewish if you will so you wouldn't express it you wouldn't live it my mother didn't really observe it um so I was never really um into observing it either but um when we moved in Amsterdam I was more curious about it but I didn't act it on my curiosity because I was not stimulated to be you know to be curious about it um but it was kind of like uh the seed in me was sprouting if you will um I started High School also and it was really the first time that I was exposed to other ethnic groups and and other cultures besides from the Dutch culture that I grew up in in the beamster um and it was really mind-blowing to me um in high school I dealt with a lot of conflicts me being Jewish we had a lot of non-jews um grandchildren from from Nazis that were in school and a lot of Islam people always always something me being Jewish and they're not and everything is so Jewish that I do and what I say and that you know it it got normal to me so whatever it was what it was um when I was 14 we went on to a vacation to New York and I fell in love with it immediately and I told my parents I'm moving to New York as soon as I turned 18 I moved to New York but they never took me seriously especially my mom she was like yeah okay that's nice um and two weeks after my 18th birthday I literally I I I went to New York crazy well yeah you before you came to New York you were actually a successful singer yes sorry I skipped that whole part yes so um I went to the conservatory of Amsterdam as well Conservatory of Amsterdam um to train for my you know obviously it was discovered oh you can sing opera and I trained my voice um a very um hardcore and yes with that I performed everywhere all over Holland in Germany in Belgium a lot I loved it yes wow yeah I've been performing since he came to New York it's been in the past yeah pretty much now after the interview you're going to find women's groups to revive your career oh no we're not I'm curious about your experience of being Jewish I think you told me that your your dad isn't Jewish right correct yes so what was your experience in the Netherlands um in relation to your religious life being Jewish was it a matter of fact thing in your home oh we are Jewish what about your dad's side of things what what was sort of the whole narrative so um my mother is dark like me her mother is also dark but my mother's grandmother is is very light and green gray eyes she was from Europe all her children were light except for my grandmother so my grandmother was given away my great-grandmother's mother forced my great-grandmother to give her child away because of her darker skin um but she was Nifty she passed away when my mother was five years old so when my mother was five years old she was put in custody with my great grandmother but my great-grandmother is racist as very racist lady I remember her she was really I don't pass but she was super racist so um my mother grew up really uh being picked on by her by her aunts and by her grandmother our uncles were kind okay she said um so my mother really never felt like oh I want to be Yiddish because it's so wonderful you should be also wonderful I have a good experience being Jewish so she never had that nice experience of of you know being Jewish and that was laid on us also my siblings and myself it's nothing to it being Jewish really nothing you know it's not such a nice thing Jewish people are not necessarily nice people um and my one of my brothers still have it has it that um he tells me sometimes well you know fine you're Yiddish now you're a Hamish but you will never really be one of them because they're all racist but it's mentality that we grew up with yeah because we also my great-grandmother when she had a party or whatever she forbid us to come because of because we were dark merchandise you understand so where did she live in the Netherlands yeah yeah at the end she did yeah so our experience was not so nice necessarily but you know I I don't know why I don't know what to hurt me I really don't know what turned me around it's it was always something always that I felt like this is who I am and before my great-grandmother died she told me as well you know I was playing with one of my cousins second cousins and she asked me please come sit with me and something you know she really usually never does did so I went to sit next to her and she put her arm around me which she never ever she never ever hugged me as far as I can remember and then she asked me I'm tired do you want to sleep with me and I said no I really felt very uncomfortable and then she told me you know I know I wasn't always nice but you know you should never forget your Yiddish you know my thought is convenient Belzer and deepest also yeah this doesn't matter what your skin color is blah blah blah but I was like seven eight I didn't know what I didn't know what she was talking about it didn't mean anything to me I just wanted to her to let go of me and to let me go play so perhaps that is something that kind of later in life grew more I don't know I don't know but because my siblings they really don't have it they don't they don't care less and um for me in the beginning I I wouldn't care but as I grew I I really felt like but this is who I am yeah yeah your grandmother your grandmother was she uh she spoke Yiddish was she like a great grandmother yes wait you sorry your great grandma your grandmother passed away when she stepped on a nail right so your great grandmother who is wow yeah yeah so she's the one who's like was she observant was she what was her relationship to her Judaism my great-grandmother she wore a shirt um she was observant um to be really honest I do not know exactly how much yes how much not because at some point my mother didn't allow us to see her because every time we were in her presence she would say something racist or my mother didn't want us to experience that so at some point it was like you did it with me and with my kids it stopped that's what she told her and then she really didn't let us see her and I was so young I was so young so um yeah yeah but yeah I remember her very well she she didn't even look nice to me she looked like a witch to me like very mean always say something yeah yeah so so then you come to New York at 18 having had very little except after you moved where did you move in the Netherlands where it was more Jewish um Amsterdam oh Amsterdam in the South part of Amsterdam yeah so okay so you come to New York and you have just had a smattering of exposure to the yiddishu world which I'm sure is very different in Amsterdam in the first place oh yes and he comes yeah yeah completely so what what happened first of all the story of you coming to New York which is entirely unrelated to the Jewish identity is hilarious can you tell it yeah I I wouldn't recommend it by the way to just go and that was insane if I had a daughter that would do that I don't know how I turned out to be okay really so many things have gone wrong if I think back how many Shady people I got in touch with I don't even want to go there but yeah no I my I I just wanted to be there I didn't even care I I wanted to be there and just absorb it all I needed the energy I have from naturally a lot of energy and um um in Holland I felt like I was on top of the world and it's moving too slow for me and when I was in New York I finally felt like okay a challenge like I'm spec and I just have to really figure this out so um I went to New York I I barely spoke English and even the rudeness at the airport I was like whoa this is this is so great really I just loved it all um so I arrived and I had two large suitcases and you know I was just a young skinny girl like would barely move them I didn't know where to go and um I know Times Square everybody knows Times Square I told the taxi just bring me to Times Square and I was standing in the middle of Times Square I'm just like I just looking around and oh I was completely amazed and at some point I felt like okay what next right I I needed a hotel no idea about it I didn't figure out anything I had a whole story for my mother yeah I'm gonna do this and then that and then this but I really had no idea so then I took another cap I I didn't know first of all how to get a cab I taught you how to call them in Holland you call a company come pick me up from this address in New York a lady at Starbucks explained to me you have to hold them and I was like excuse me how how that's crazy how do you hold what if they drive against my arm I I couldn't imagine so I was very nervous about stopping a cab I managed to get one and then he asked me okay so where are you going where is your hotel I had no idea I just said Wall Street because I heard Wall Street on the news um and then he's like yeah but which hotel is Wall Street and then he's named a few and then he said Club Quarters and an end quarter sounded like okay it's an affordable hotel how much money did you have four hundred dollars four hundred dollars it was gone in two days so Club Quarters was this beautiful expensive hotel 140 a night which was a lot of money in 2004 for one night for 18 year olds so um yeah I stayed there um and um I was a little disappointed that Wall Street was not as busy as I imagined it would be you know um but in the morning it was busy again so that made me excited um anyway I moved that day to a cheaper Hotel YMCA which is much cheaper and I checked my emails that day also and um how you say the English to my surprise there was an email from this Dutch family in New York that was looking for an old bear so I was like oh I'm good with kids I used to babysit why not and they picked me up the same day yeah that's how you had your your ride out of I don't know being homeless in New York City yeah totally yeah yeah there was some funny things also like holding the the cab that you mentioned in your book about the culture shock which I found so funny because a lot of people ask me about the culture shock of going from the acidic Community to the larger world yeah and it was it felt like that story you know the stories you have of not knowing things that everyone takes for granted yeah yeah coming from a very different place yes yes it's man violence compared to New York it's so you can't even compare it the energy alone it's just it's it's come too completely different things you're in New York now no I'm in the Netherlands oh yeah I'm here who are you visiting I'm visiting yeah yes and I have a actually I have an interview in London as well so um that's one of the reasons why I'm here after pesach I'm going back to New York okay all right yeah all the different energy yeah yeah I loved it let's talk about your your Journey getting involved with the Jewish Community um okay so I so the family picked me up from from the hotel in Manhattan right the Dutch family and they lived in Westchester and um it really was a good start to get on my feet but really after two three months I figured like I did not come to New York to take care of these people's kids and in Westchester like might as well stay in Holland Westchester was as dead to me as Holland was so I told him I'm leaving um they were not happy but I I left and then I found a family in Manhattan um where the father was touched the mother was Asian and they also wanted their child to learn Dutch so they hired me so at some point I felt like I took care of the child but I felt like I had to do something more with my life I want to learn more about Yiddish guide about Judaism so I should look into that so one day on my way to work I sat on the subway and I see a a man with a coupler with a yamaka on reading from something in a train like right across from me and I was like oh so I I already immediately made up my mind I'm gonna I'm gonna ask him about this but I had no idea how it was a full train he was completely absorbed in what he was reading I didn't want to disturb him I didn't know how to approach I was way too shy to just kinda approach him in a full tree so I decided to follow him so my my stop I I passed my stop because he was going a few stops further when he got off I got off he was on the escalator I stood right behind him and I'm like oh how am I gonna do this so I talked on the sleeve of his jacket and he was looking at me like you know what do you want first of all Wilder and then I explained to him look I'm here in New York very broken English I'm here in New York I want to learn more about Judaism where could I go where could I start and then he looked at me kind of like hey like it was more like sympathy and then he had all these questions because obviously I you know I don't look like your everyday Jew so he had all these questions like to figure out who are you and are you really Jewish I guess um and then when he was satisfied he decided okay give me your number and I'll look into this for you um so I was okay fine I I didn't expect to I I was hoping that he would just give me some answers right then and there where I could go what I could do he didn't he took my number and I was like whatever here you have my number but I didn't expect to hear from him um and then at some point um I was sitting in Battery Park just really just sitting completely relaxed in my bubble just enjoying the weather the water and then my phone rang and it was some Rabbi and the rabbi explained to me I have your number from this gentleman that you met on the train and in the rabbi started to ask me all sorts of questions as well the same questions that the gentleman asked me maybe to see to cross-reference I don't know um and then he's like okay you know there is this organization on the upper west side I think it would be a good fit for you why won't you contact them and go there so I looked it up um and I went there I didn't contact I just went there they had like a class a beginner's class it was called perfect right I was a beginner so I went there and I didn't even know that this type of Jewish happy Jewish people existed in my mind um Jewish people were just depressed always um and they were so futuristic and happy and smart and talking and laughing and I was like wow so I started to attend those classes were the people at this class you went to were they observant or were they just culturally Jewish what was their yeah it was a mix it was really a mix the rabbi was Modern orthodox um the people that go there were people that are were young professionals like myself that wanted to learn more about Judaism but some of the people that were there were just there to kind of debate you know like to kind of argue or something they were already modern Orthodox and they knew already everything but they just kind of felt like okay let me hear what this Rabbi has to say and then I'll give my 50 cents it was a real mixture of beginners like myself and people that were more advanced but just wanted to company and the discussion so yeah but it was nice they were there for a couple of years right yes I went there I started working for them also which also surprised me because my English was really poor and I was hired to answer phones and I was saying why would they want me but while I was answering phones I got phone calls from um um other beginners other people that were not observing that had all these questions about um and um I had to answer them at some point yeah so that's how myself How I Learned also more about you Jason um and that's how I really grew religious by learning that way really helping other people um how to hang up their musical to cash in the kitchen why this not why that's yet why that yes sorry um so and that's how I really how I really also learned um I was also setting up people for um see this fire for Shabbos meals at other families their houses and I started to go also go here and there um I got to know a lot of people and I got to learn a lot and I grew more religious more religious every day without really realizing it really unconsciously and at some point I was just religious yeah what what what do you mean by religious are you very um intrigued by your religiosity was it was it a search for a God was it culture was it Customs what what how would you describe this religiosity that you were so deeply drawn to it was me it sounds corny probably but it was really me I felt like my life and my spirit were not aligning and I'm not such a holy person really I'm not I'm not talking about you know you can ask my kids I can be silly I can do all that but it it there is something missing of in me and that was really my um I was not getting nerd my Jewish Spirit it was not getting nurtured and um you can be religious and wear pants as a woman it's not that it's it's I can't I can't explain it in words really it was really my other half kinda I can't explain it it's it sounds cheesy probably but it's that's really what it is it wasn't that you were thinking God wants me to for instance speak Yiddish in order for me to be fully Jewish it wasn't it wasn't for you right am I not at all no not at all you know how can I say this in a safe way I don't necessarily think death for anyone for that matter that God necessarily needs somebody to dress a certain way or to do this or do that I just think that I wish to really expect God really expects everybody just to be good to be good and do good yeah whatever that means yeah yeah I don't know how to say it in a safe way not to offend you or anyone but this is just what works for me um this is just me it's just me it's not and I don't necessarily sometimes you can see my hairline now you can't but in the house you know I my kids see my hairline and I have I have friends that are like yoy how do are you crazy but things like that I don't necessarily feel like you know I don't think it's necessary to shave your head I didn't shave my head I have a lot of hair behind here it's it's it's it's just I I work it how it works for for us but this is me and I cannot explain to you what does religion means to me I would just say it is just my other half it's me and yeah yeah it's hard to explain oh I know I I know how hard it is to put words to it I think it's easier when you can say I believe God to hold us to shave our heads and therefore I shave my head it's so much simpler I I feel like at the core you connect to something that I I appreciate and I wish that we could find words to express what that is the beautiful way of describing it but yeah that comes very close to it yeah exactly yeah by the way how was your Yiddish and and when did you learn English I assume you didn't grow up speaking English well I did I I grew up speaking English with my alphabet with my great grandmother um but you know she passed away when I was nine so I stopped speaking English when my mother would not even go there she's everything Yiddish for her she's like eh let's just keep it to dodge yeah um but uh yeah no I spoke Yiddish with my great grandmother definitely and uh I stopped when she passed and then when I started having kids then I started again speaking English to them and that's two it's not something like oh a conscious um a conscious um decision it also came naturally I remember when I was I think 19 or 20 maybe one of my co-workers had a newborn baby and one day he brought the baby to work with him a newborn his wife went somewhere and even with the big and he was just modern Orthodox but even with the baby I love babies and I just took it on me I'm gonna take care of this baby for the day and even to that baby I spoke it just came naturally and he was laughing like why are you speaking Yiddish to my daughter we don't speak Yiddish but it's it just came naturally it's a Yiddish kind and I just spoke Yiddish to the child your grandmother's accent was probably different from your accent you seem to speak yeah yes correct yeah yeah she spoke more um um uh first type I say fast she say fast taste yeah she spoke different yes you have a knack for language you came to the States you learned English you picked up two versions of Yiddish sort of okay yeah correct yeah I speak I I learn language is pretty fast yes true wow yeah so so what happened [Music] um with the the modern orthox classes you didn't feel like that was enough for you at some point or did you even know hasidum existed like yeah sure sure my great grandmother and um I you know we have anderton which is not too far from Amsterdam um but no I I wasn't uh around it if you will um because in Holland we didn't have um and my great grandmother at some point I wasn't allowed to see her anymore and she didn't really you know her expose any of that it was always brief and quick and an hour here an hour there um I'm sorry what was the question I asked what got you from the classes you were taking at the Modern Orthodox Brooklyn yeah yeah yeah so uh yeah like you said the classes at some point it was like okay I already know okay really we could do this better whatever I had a friend in Manhattan and this friend um she had family in in Brooklyn in Borough Park um and she asked me if I wanted to go with her there on one Sunday to bake cookies and I'm from Holland we we love to bake we're very like you know so I was like yes let's let's do this so I went there and her family was very acidic they were square and um that's that that was kind of the first step getting into that again um I clicked very well with that family and they invited me for Shabbos once and I just I just I just loved it I felt so at home and connected and the the mother of the household she was so worried that I was uncomfortable and I was insulted like why do you think I'm uncomfortable do you ask every guest if they're uncomfortable because I'm dark I should be uncomfortable like what kind of nonsense no I'm not a Gotham you know I was very um I was very comfortable and um I felt very much in my elements um over there so that's how it started I started to go there more often at some point I moved also to Brooklyn but I continue to work in Manhattan and um um the the place I worked for they also had shops dinner sometimes and um the caterer that we used had like so he oversaw um the kitchen of the catering company to make sure that everything is prepared the proper way for it to to be considered kosher if you will did I explain it uh good so um I became very friendly with him this was this Jolly acidic guy um with with Pious and he was a little bit zaft a little bit fat and a beard and he was talking loud it was very social um so and he also lived in Brooklyn not too far from me so wonderful guy we you know we were we were friendly with each other and he also lived in Brooklyn um and he was dating somebody who I also was friendly with so sometimes on araf Shabbos on the evening of Shabbat they would come to pick me up and we would walk take a take a walk um outside it was always nice um and he would come in with Chavez good job look at Chavez he would always scream I don't know why but that's just who he was so um we would take a stroll um at some point he stopped dating that specific person and then sometimes he would still walk and we would always speak Yiddish and um we got sometimes into arguments and then you know I'm I'm very mellow whatever I would just let him rant on um and then he would speak English then it would always go like what in the world like is this lady okay is this even is this even this is what I see well it was always funny to see to see other people's responses to it um and then someday he told me you know what my Revis Ed father youngest daughter is getting married you should go to this hasana and I've never been to it through the classroom to the wedding I've never been to a wedding of a a a a a big whatever you know uh uh so I I was like what am I gonna do there I never got an invite how am I going and he's like ah nobody had an invite you just go everybody goes don't worry don't worry whatever um I never saw him at this wedding because obviously there was a woman's side and there was a man's side I was at the women's side and the men were somewhere else um so you wish you won okay you went all by yourself to this wedding all by myself yeah wow great I want to tell you something I since I am different in my own way in the acidic Community I get stared at a lot I think it is very important to look different yeah tell me and like in the way that you did just coming or was it from the community it's very ballsy yeah but you know at that time I was just very um um like right now I think more back then I was just like oh this is what I'm gonna I'm just gonna do it same with New York I just went to New York I just [Music] at least I feel like I do owe myself I don't get intimidated easily or I don't really have a slow self-esteem so there's not really anything that anyone could say to make me feel I'm really raised by a very powerful mother like my mother is something else I'm sure many people say that about their mothers but my mother is really insane and she really raised us like you are every you're the best then I really always felt like what's the best whatever um so I went there and everybody like stares at me like and I would like myself I would just say mouse or something everybody whatever and some people would say mouse will talk back while looking at me like and other people just stare at me everybody had a different response to it depends you know like you know whoever whatever character but I got all different responses um at some point I was approached by a few ladies like okay like what's your name what are you doing you're like you have questions but they came very friendly and they try to carefully figure out what I was doing there and and was I and they wanted to know the story what did you put on for the wedding I was wearing that was an artist I had no idea what to wear but I really wanted to be respectful completely um so I just wore a blouse and a skirt but like really a three-quarter skirt not one that goes right over the knee but wanted it's just a little longer just you know just to make sure that it's completely sneezed according to their um laws of diabetes it seems to me from reading the story that it was in Williamsburg yeah because I could figure out which sector was oh sure am I allowed to just say it no I'm saying that you don't want to name it did you not want to name it no it's sat in it yeah fashion of something that you went to the wedding yeah yeah yeah yeah were you at that wedding huh did you happen to be at that wedding no no no I felt like though I was there in spirit what in your retelling but yeah you didn't you didn't look like like you weren't wearing the dress that the women that they were wearing you describe everyone looking like they were shopping at the same place yeah yeah yes no I was not my clothes were not black either um so um yeah I stood out for that also and I had very long hair and I was just having it in a braid and I was just completely being really myself for the rest I just wanted to make sure that I wouldn't offend them by looking in any way uh um reveal too much of myself um but I just went there and um yeah just the way how I looked was already questioned it made sense now to me like why you know they they were kind of like very curious about the whole picture um so the ladies approached me and they carefully started to ask me questions trying to figure out without offending me or anything um who I was and what I was doing there and if I was even Jewish so at some point um one of the ladies dared to ask me but you are Jewish right and then I answered them back in Yiddish yes of course I'm Jewish are you Jewish and then they were like like it was like and then everyone or something like whoa what is this and then they started talking and then they started to get this person and that person and don't go anywhere I'm getting this person you have to meet her and then it was hilarious um so then all these people I I felt like I was the girl at some point I all the attention was pointed at me um so yeah um and at some point started um and then after the copper I went home with one of the younger ladies um because there was a long gap between HIPAA and the dancing um which are much much more than at other weddings um which I was not aware of um and um yeah I was sitting with her at her table her kids were sleeping she had to feed one of her children that was the reason why she had to go home um and she was she was she was a riot she was very she had a good brain um and we were talking and talking and she actually came far from Monroe from Curiosity oil she married somebody from Williamsburg that's why she lived there and she goes like you know what you should connect to the repson from there you will love her she would love you she so much different I I don't want to talk back but she um advised me to contact her and um okay so um she gave me the uh the contact information and so I did but I didn't expect really to hear anything to me I felt like she's probably some sort of Queen to the community and who am I really a random girl and you know it's a very insular Community why would they even entertain the idea of talking to the uh yeah so um but in no time uh she called me and I was completely like whoa I was I was so surprised and she was so kind and spoke perfect English and then she invited me to visit her at her apartment that she had in Williamsburg and that's who surprised me like you just invite everybody to your apartment you know um but I felt honored also of course did you have a royal-ness about her I mean she's the huge rabbits in the rabbit's wife yeah did she have a royal illness about her did you feel like you're in a Royal Court when you visited her home when I when I visited her I didn't when I had her on the phone and when I heard about her then yes I'm like wow but when I visited her I in my experience she was just a simple consideration Baba uh grandmother just you know she has what's wearing like a house dress and a turban like myself you could you could see that oh she's sharp she's sharp she's No Nonsense that was clear but no if if she would pass me on the street and and I would not know who she was I would not say oh there goes some Queen no wow yes she's one of the preeminent characters in the most insular world I don't know that I have ever exchanged with her more than three words more than Mazel Tov at weddings you know yeah up up there and not that I'm saying she's inaccessible if I had wanted at some point it's just it was really interesting to hear about her appearance in your story this Larger than Life enormous woman who just calls you and and one of the things you mentioned is she said something like I can't one person can change City Hall I don't know if anybody's gonna be happy that I that that I said that she said that but for me it's an it's a positive thing but yeah because obviously I'm dark um and she she did tell me like you know it's probably going to be difficult for you to be accepted and um one person can can change City Hall meaning like um I wish for the whole um Community for you to accept you overnight but me by myself overnight I cannot do it in one night doesn't work like that that's what she meant with that um and and and and perhaps she was right you know I I it wasn't like okay here is Siri uh uh welcome welcome um but um I I do must say I I was really welcomed warmly um in time yeah um so at the Davidson's house we spoke a lot and she really um spoke to me in a way to see how can you fit in how can I help you what can you do what can I advise you to me she was really helpful and very kind um she listened to me a lot and there were people coming in and out now I'm thinking about everybody coming in and out maybe it was to make sure isn't okay where there's a stranger in our house maybe it was just a check really and it came in for all sorts of excuses but back then I was like so nice how everybody comes to visit her to greet her to eat by her and things like that yeah then she sent you to um another character who I could easily figure out who that is who We're Not Gonna name um which is where I grew up by the way I grew up in Curious Joel you did yeah you know her oh no way yeah I definitely know her you know you're you're a book floored me for just the characters that were so much in my world I was shocked that I hadn't heard of you you know yeah you're a little younger than me we're pretty much essentially the same age We Were Strangers passing in the night on different Journeys perhaps perhaps because I feel now that all of you yeah should I say it may I say it yeah of course I'm not sure for my feeling everybody knows at least the women I feel like everybody knows me if I go to Asana there if I go to a wedding there everybody knows of me it feels like um so yeah but but yeah I don't know maybe it was maybe a little bit maybe we cross each other could have been I don't know yes you know yeah we go to houses too you know my my son and I go to weddings uh family and my always reports on feeling so stared at these events he's like everyone looks at him and of course everyone knows who he is but he doesn't know who everyone is it's impossible to know who everyone is but he stands out so people recommend so people come up to him and say she remember me and he's like I am so sorry but there's like the hundredths person today who asked me if I remember them I don't yeah but for him and maybe to a much lesser degree to me you it's an experience of of standing out yeah you know I am an opera singer also yeah I am so used to getting stared at but I get stared at a lot one time this was the worst really you know like boy met in Monroe um the women are all like in in like a line standing right and then went on fire they're watching you exactly and then it's around the bonfire and there are like thousands of people exactly exactly so imagine so I am standing all the way at the end of the line at some point I was with my people and at some point we decided we are leaving a little bit towards the middle end of it all so so I'm walking literally passing all these women in the dark with the light of the Fire shining on me can you imagine the stairs I got at that few I mean it was I could literally feel the stairs it's it's one thing to have it at weddings but it wasn't everybody was standing there just to look at me or something I can't it was something else that was that moment in my life I will just never forget there was a moment I was really stared at so intensely I could literally feel it but at the same time I was walking and I had my people and I was walking and everybody was just staring and some here and there somebody knew me in the crowd and then they would come out hey how are you blah blah and then jump back in and then come out so in that way it was kinda validated like he is she is known in in this community but still it's it's literally a moment I will never ever forget I it those stairs were intense yeah yeah I I I also have when I walk through the neighborhood and people look at me and then there's a person who comes up to me and says hi it makes everyone else let their guard Downs ah okay yeah exactly yeah yeah just like us but we know who she is she checks out yeah exactly that yeah it could feel so um harsh the stairs you take it with such a sense of humor you have to you have to if you don't you'll you'll go crazy you you'll get you get offended every time it's too much negative energy to make a big deal out I mean I would probably stare too really if I think about it if I look like you and I have a consideration all of a sudden I would see me walking into a room I would still be probably you know and and and not all stairs are necessarily negative it I do always feel like people are constantly judging judging and why I feel that way also is because when I with my closest people and somebody else comes in somebody that's a little bit off the dinner like a little bit not anymore completely uh the way that they are then right away they stare also and then the things that they say uh among each other I'm thinking like really that's your niece like why would you like just you know so I know what they're talking about um so and because I've experienced that I also sometimes feel like they're probably judging me but I I do generally genuinely feel like I mean you you can judge me it doesn't to me it doesn't matter um it doesn't do any it doesn't count to me if you judge me so you may and I and I I'm probably getting judged all the time but as long as my kids are fine and I'm fine it's fine it doesn't disillusion you to say oh these are supposed to be such holy people they judge sure that's oh you sound like my mother now yeah my tourists say all the time I think it's you you know yeah everyone looks one way and someone looks different than you judge that's human nature yes yes and and My Philosophy also is a little bit like um the player asks you you just be kind yeah to be nice and if you decide that you're not kind or that you want to judge not knowing me then really that's your problem that's that's on you it's nothing to do with me there's nothing I can do about it and I don't even want to do anything about it um so you know I don't know why but especially um younger um um the the the girls that just got married it is as if they are kind of like have a little attitude often about them which is fine with me the older the women are the more I feel like they're they're warm and and um um more understanding of how people can be a little bit different but the younger girls they can be such snobs as soon as they get married before they're married they're still sweet but when they get married it's as if they feel like not all of them but but many of them they just feel like hmm you know so whatever I I just let it be but I didn't notice that what yeah it's by the way yeah I'm reading your book I realized that I say oh wow you were writing about how all the women say oh wow oh I say it all the time I'm so embarrassed I read I was like oh no I want to stop saying oh wow yeah refrain right yes but sometimes it's being said like wow it should give a wow expression but often you also get like oh wow sometimes when I'm on the phone still today with people from there um how are you I'm good uh uh whatever I made 10 Carlos today I put them in the freezer oh wow it doesn't go that the way they say it there's no emotion behind it like why are you saying that it's not wow to you obviously I don't hear about you just say it just to say it for everything and you have my one pretend Hollis you have my well I have for you sorry oh thank you I for you too really I have not made any colors I'm so sorry I've made zero it is before peso so yeah so you better not now yeah yeah yeah so um then you get married talk about about looking for a match in this world were you trying to go through the matchmaking system um um in the in the community definitely not consciously um when I entered I was not really ready to get married myself I wasn't really open to it I did hear a lot like oh I have a for you I have a for you and then I was like okay but I would never follow through on it or call or or I wasn't I wasn't there with my mind um and if I did get some something it was always completely off it was completely you know there's always something wrong with the situation um so yes my ex-husband I am divorced now um um Happily Divorced my ex-husband um wonderful guy by the way I should say that no hard feelings we still are very on very good terms um I know him pretty much all my life and um my mother was against it from the get-go she said he's really not for you he doesn't have enough backbone I I am I'm not feisty but you know I keep things moving if you will and he definitely not um but whatever he was very sweet I figured like um and I'm sure you can relate to that it's not really it's more like is he able is he willing and able to work with you is he like you are you guys aligning in a way of that you can make a living together now we have pretty much the same backgrounds um I am assertive he is not I am a little bit more stubborn well no he was too I mean whatever it worked it would work so um I just I decided to marry him and I went to color classes and everything but uh I am from Holland and you learn everything you have to know with regards to having sex and stuff in Holland in school so I knew all that um but but during color classes there's so much more that you learn and um I got really nervous I really felt like oh but if I'm getting married I'm Gonna Lose Myself there's so many more things that I was not allowed to do once I married you become Step Up you become a lady you I couldn't be the silly me anymore I was really a silly girl really um but you know a Dakota teacher also assured me like at some point you have you just have to get married and this is just who you will become it has no other way this is just the best way and I believe that I still I still do and okay I I got married and um yeah I got pregnant really fast really really fast let's talk about the wedding first first of all it's I find it interesting that you did color lessons but you didn't do the system Did anyone say to you well you have to get married and not talk to your your fiance during the engagement because this is how we do it did you get any pushback for doing things what seems to be entirely your own way you picked and chose what you want to do no um no it it was very much taken into consideration that my background was different very much so um and I don't necessarily think that everybody knew that I was speaking to my ex-husband because like you say it's not really common we spoke like every day and thought all sorts of stuff um but not everybody no everybody just really wanted to help and be part of it and make it something beautiful and really something authentic like high Mission you know everybody was just very excited about it and just wanted to help in any way they could so no everybody was really considerate about it the color teacher he was much a golly lady she had a very high pitched voice and this shital that was like it looked like a helmet you know it was like this little brown bob and a very high-pitched voice and she was Tiny and petite and just lovey loving loving loving loving very loving lady and she's very respectful also of okay she comes from a different background she has probably a little bit different mindset ideas and so she really introduced everything very carefully and gentle to me in a way for me to um um accept it more accept it better and digest it a little bit you know easier um it was it was perfect it was really perfect were there things that she explained about what marriage is what relationships are that you having grown up in the West in a world with very different Norms about gender and relationships were like no way I'm not on board with whatever this this is like two conservative yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's it definitely I do kinda give more than than take if you take more than give whatever I do submit more than than what I um would want um but not certain things I just really feel like no and shaving my head is one of those things if I would shave my head I would literally not feel feminine anymore this is beautiful hair yeah um so certain things I just am not willing to um do for the sake of you know religion and shaping my head is one of the I will not shade my I would literally um turn down for that are there matches that are being proposed to you now that you're divorce that are conditional on you shaving your head no no everything I get now it doesn't even go beyond to that point it's it's it's it's it's it's it's there's always something off I see always something off and um my mother really wants more grandchildren um but but at the same time she's really like um don't um trying to see how to say it in English so don't sell yourself short is that yeah yeah yes do any of your other siblings have children oh yeah sure yeah cool yes my brother um is married also to a Jewish woman by coincidence because he wouldn't he couldn't care less we've been married as long as it's a good connection but she happens to be Jewish and they have children also yeah I want to go back I want to go back to talking about your marriage because I'm I'm feeling the itch to talk about your children but I want to get to that [Laughter] your marriage your husband he was from the Netherlands Jewish but not religious correct yeah correct correct how did you convince him to come and have a hasidisha wedding with a partition men separate from women yeah so he didn't he he was willing to practically do anything as long as I would marry him literally um and one of the reasons is also why I'm divorced is because he just married he slowly left Yiddish guide was one of the reasons there are other reasons in the book um but he just wanted to marry me um so he was willing to go along with it to learn as much as he had to and you know and he held on for to wait for a short while and then he just uh he didn't believe that's really also the thing he really did not genuinely believe in that lifestyle also not you know he was not devoted to it so after you got married where did you live did you live in one of the hasidish yes I I lived on the edge of Morrow Park I I wouldn't live in a smack middle of Borough Park but I lived on the edge then I was there every day sure yeah how did your mother deal react to your choice to pursue so much of Yiddish your your place in The Siege community she actually she is somewhat proud believe it or not she really is somewhat proud she thinks all the rules are complete nonsense also because she caught many people on Shabbos doing things they're not supposed to do you know obviously they see there's no huge person around let me just do this blah blah but my mother sees it all so she thinks everything is just utter nonsense but just just um she's she's proud of me just owning myself being Yiddish um she's proud of that part but she doesn't want to be bothered with no rules she will get offended if I would tell my kids not to eat something at her house there's just like she can't she she would get offended but she's very respectful of the rules that yes in my house for sure what about your siblings um my two older siblings are like whatever okay um and my other brother um he's like well you will never be completely accepted because you're black and at my wedding he heard somebody say oh sorry is black you didn't tell me she was black I didn't know who that was but it left a very bad taste in his mouth um so um he always says that because he heard that one thing and of course because of how we are raised never being accepted by our yiddisha Al to Baba great grandmother so he has that mindset which is it's that's fine yeah talk about your lovely children how many do you have are they yeah of course I have three boys I have three sons they're sleeping now my oldest Shia and then I have Moishy and then I've married uh she has 12 is almost my mitzvah I'm I just can't cry thinking about it I don't want to think about it and then Moishy is 11 and Meyer is nine yeah what are you gonna do for the bar mitzvah I think I'll take them to answer can't work and work I think so I think so yeah um because in Amsterdam we don't have we only have uh and so he's learning now and the rabbi is learning with is a the hafur is different so my kids um they they pronounce everything yeah uh so this rabbit tries to teach him different um I don't agree and he says well if he's gonna have it in my shield and this is how we pronounce it I can teach him don't worry but I don't want it that this is not this is not us um so I just think that we're going to answer and work so the children were where do they attend yeshivas where they go to school they go to High Mission School I don't like to say the names of the schools um yeah but it has a sense of what their upbringing is like that's my question to what degree are they being raised in what we call the system meaning the the yeah yeah so um it's it's a it's a mixed school kids go there with with parents probably a little bit like me a little bit more open-minded but you also see just from uh other kids that are not necessarily for cities yeah do your children speak Yiddish they do they affiliate with the sect do they see themselves as Crusaders or just from yeah they call themselves more heimish they don't really necessarily say well if somebody specifically asked them then they say yes we are hasidish but just in general they call themselves um my kid my kids I see already now how one is more inclined to becoming hasidishtany other and I respect them completely I I set the foundation at home we have a consider show home and this is what I expect from you and this is how we do things and this is yes and this is no but them as individuals I try to respect them one of my child wants Pious the other two don't and that's how it is I'm not going to force them to have bias and my other child I support him what if if he wants um and and that's how that's how that's that that's how I that's how that's how I want to keep it yeah but do you experience that they um feel completely um to some degree maybe you go I don't know how to ask this do you experience that they feel stared at that they feel um at school you mean do they let me rephrase it do you experience that they feel socially entirely integrated like to some degree I assume you feel like you weren't born into this world but they were yeah um they do they feel integrated but um I'll tell you a funny story my youngest one he One Summer he went to this uh to this uh summer camp this day camp of this very prestigious camp like very hard to get into blah blah blah you know how it goes he got in I was very proud yes my son got a whatever he got in there he was playing with everybody very nice very nice nice nice and then the boys found out that I was his mother so oh my mommy so then they started to uh um so one time I picked him up from the school bus and I could see right away that he was not happy I asked him what's this and he explained to me that they were just bullying the whole entire way home about his brother man so the bus was about to take off I stopped the bus and the bus show for he opens the door I go under the bus and not explaining why I was going onto the bus then I'm screaming to this kiss um we're out good Chef admired and everybody like you're like nobody said anything and Madonna and everybody was just like oh you know so for me that I am not always necessarily right away um accepted or whatever for me it's fine but for my kids I do feel like I don't want I I don't know why but for my kids I really don't want um the staring order or the feeling like different or whatever and in general they don't they they're not dark like me they're they're very they're more leaning towards the Caucasian side than towards the black side um so they don't experience it but then I do get a lot of oh are these really your kids is that really your mommy even at the airport I literally have to bring their birth certificates to often prove that yeah these are my kids because nobody believes me or like often I'm not believed that these are really my kids so yeah I do get that a lot yeah that's super annoying super annoying yeah you do you do tell a story of walking with a stroller and people following you yeah yeah okay bring it on follow me let's find out how this is yes so I have this one child Moishy when she used to be super blonde like you and yeah guys and I picked him up early from Friday because he had an appointment and he was fetching in the stroller and nagging yeah he was crying he took us off and he went like sliding like this and he didn't want to listen whatever and I ignored him because you know if you whatever it was not it was not uh you know it was just um um anyway he was just wanting his way I didn't want to give it he's just scratching exactly exactly so I let it I ignore him completely and I saw people already looking like is this nanny literally just not tending to the needs of this child I literally I've served it but I ignored everybody and I was pushing and it was whatever screaming is took her stuff and then I I noticed people started following me man started following me and calling and following me and from a distance and then stand at a wall and one across the street was like really walking and then parallel to me and then observing even observing I went one way he crossed the street went that same way and I was like oh I was excited I really wanted to them to say something to me and like I want to know whose family this boy belongs to give me the number whatever I would give them my number and I was like ready for it all but then all of a sudden why she says my tummy and it was like uh pulling my sleeve like Mommy for my tomb I want my tummy I want my pacifier here and then I was like oh darn and then I gave it to him and then they were like oh whatever and then they all left but I just really I just really wanted them to say something I just don't like it when people assume immediately that cannot be her child and not only other Jews it's also going also non-jewish people they they all always think that these are not my kids no this is this is the other way all the way around I was with my kids in Toys R Us it was called something they could buy something and we went on the bus back home and my kids were so excited they ran on the bus they passed the show for blah blah and the shower just tells me um the first he screams to the to my kids that they should walk and then he he tells me that you that I should teach these Jewish pets to respect me they don't have manners well they're my kids it was so embarrassed it wasn't a black show where you know you felt like you should help me because these kids they just were all over me but I get it both ways but I always get these things especially when they were younger yeah what was your experience in general in regards to racism in the community in particular this community racism racism really none actually really not discriminate not no really not um I mean I have been in in well yeah that it was more like ignorance and and and and um curiosity that I that people don't know me and then they ask things like that maybe that's racism and then I would answer back in Yiddish like you know and then they're like oh oh oh I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that you get that but no I I never really experienced I'm telling you everybody always has been very a hearty warm and welcoming to me everywhere every Sim I go to I meet new people and they always like ask like please come to us one time for a Shabbos or my daughter's getting married can you come to our scene because like I it's I never really and that's weird no what do you think they they for instance the boys um Etc what do you think they are expressing I know that for so many this would be so so hurtful that they they wouldn't be able to to get past it no um first of all for my son it meant like yeah she's blown like new like I can see that to him my kids don't know they don't know color they don't know racism they don't know nothing about it they don't know the history of America they don't know that black people used to be slaves a brown person is a brown person a Caucasian they don't they don't see a difference in that in in value or or worth whatever if you will so to him he was like okay um but these kids what I think is they just saw something that they really never saw before a Yiddish person that's brown like haha that's funny is that racism maybe I don't know I don't know if I put myself and I kind of would understand because if you live in such a bubble when do you see right that's that that looks funny and interesting to a child I would say and and and and they're not I must say that kids that they're not disrespectful to me uh at all I can tell kids behave or this or whatever or give me here or help me with this or or and and they do it right away with such a pleasure I I you know they don't I don't know that I I really don't experience um racism but but I think for a kid that says brona mommy is literally how they say they see a brown Mommy and that it just looks funny to them which which I understand um in some way I I want to ask you one final question I've kept you um for so long that unfortunately I I can't keep you anymore even though I I really talking to you so you're you're very schmuck oh thank you I I want to ask you about other people who are interested in maybe following sort of in your footsteps because the strange experience I've had as with the work that I do is people sometimes contact me and they say I want to become president and I say like in my mind I think oh you can't be serious it's impossible it's imp that's what I think is impossible but obviously you're you're proof that The Impossible is possible so I want to know what you think when you hear someone who wants to embark on this type of Journey well the question first is why and and and that's often the question people ask me too why because I literally had the world at my feet I sing opera I made a lot of money with it I have a whole family that supports me no matter what I decide to do why in the world would I want to become hasidish like what's with it or just rules and more rules and more rules like why um for me it just aligns with my Shoma it really honestly does but some people just find it interesting or like you have to ask yourself why and if your reason is legit then do its one step at a time because to be really honest I went full force for it in the beginning and it was not a good idea because I went for it and then I took a few steps back like you said when I learned a few things how men can sometimes be and how just some things were a little bit off-ish to me so I I kind of took a few steps back where it works for me um so I just one step at a time really feel that one step out if you feel like okay beautiful yeah this works another step you know don't go don't go ahead in first just just one step at a time nice and easy yeah that's that's what I would recommend I think it's a beautiful thing I think it's a beautiful life but I do strongly believe it's definitely not for everyone even with my kids I already can tell I'm looking at the picture I can already tell who is it for and who is it not you know it's it's not for everyone what would happen if one of your kids or if if how would you feel if your children your child would give up and by that I mean go off the dirt give up Yiddish kite like in guns like completely yeah not to be shamashabas and so on ah we we shouldn't we shouldn't plan on what we don't want the outcomes of our I'm curious I would be disappointed you know the thing is their father is like that so in one way that's somewhat their example so that could just happen classical but I would just be very disappointed but you know it's just important for me for my kids to be happy that's the main thing happy I see I see many unhappy hasidishi kids too and Men I would not want that but I you know listen I expect for my kids to be and that's what I expect from them and they know that but I really respect them as individuals if they decide that this is not completely for me or you know what Mommy I'll come for Shabbos sometimes whatever what I do really want I cannot have the very non-jewish people that's just I don't know that's I don't know why but that's that's really one thing that I don't know how I would deal with that one I I don't know how I would deal with that one but but but but but if they're gonna be after that I would not be happy but I would respect them I would definitely not bend them as no that not but they must marry a Jewish woman that's that's non-negotiable that's racism these are the eight old questions that I think Jews have faced that I think about a lot myself um and and the journeys of taking our own path that we need to take for ourselves and that we feel so strongly about them that we wish our children would replicate them but then because we took our own path we have to respect you know the children and their own it's it's it's a dilemma they're an ultimate parenting conundrum yeah yeah but you know what perhaps if I was raised in the community I would also feel like no you know but my upbringing was exactly the way I I say it now like you have to these your children are not you they're not they are individuals they are their own being there their own they have their own you cannot decide for them who or what or how they're going to be you can set an example you can set the foundation but you really just have to respect them as individuals I'm not what I'm saying now I would never say in front of them I don't want them to know that just do whatever you want I don't I just tell them no no whatever but when it comes to it I would respect them just in really how their their authentic self is yeah you know what we we should do when you're back here we should go visit Borough Park together just have a tour see have an adventure together yes would be fun yeah sure yeah thank you so much for your time this late into the night um for sure you have a fascinating story your terrific storyteller oh thank you you two sometimes you ask me a question and I'm like well she really took it deeper you are really an amazing interviewer yourself really oh thank you really it's amazing the work you do and making people aware it's it's really amazing I I uh um when um I heard about you from a yeah Elder person that's been contacting you I really I looked into you of course a little bit more myself and I was what do you mean yeah I was really Blown Away myself and I must say I watched a video of you walking in Bora park for Peter an and I really felt too that you are so owning your authentic self walking around not being shy asking what you want to ask who you want to ask without shying away or without awkwardness and really nice really really nice I just wish it was like this just for everybody I know I know I feel like we have that in common we we both are saying you know what we're gonna do our thing we're gonna in our own way yeah yeah it's something really I think it's really special I I don't know I might be projecting on you but I see in you something that I try to find in my own Journey which is to say this is where my heart takes me this is what interests me this is what I'm passionate about you know what I go after what you do what you do know it's worth it it's worth it what what means a lot to us absolutely absolutely yeah oh sorry I wish you so much luck with the book um thank you thank you for sharing your story it was of course thank you for having me really thank you yeah really what a pleasure to speak to you really and when I'm in New York I will reach out to you we're gonna go to Bar Park together unfortunately I can't host you like I don't have a kosher home I'll treat you there no problem looking forward thank you so much [Music] [Music] foreign

Channel: Frieda Vizel - Brooklyn Tour Guide

Views: 532,835

Keywords: kiryas joel, sara braun, sara braun hasidic lady, sara braun memoir, sara braun memoir chasidish lady, black hasidic lady, black ultra-orthodox woman, hasidic black people, racism in hasidic community, sara braun memoir of a colored lady, sara braun memoir of a dark skinned hasidic, suri braun, sara braun opera, sara braun holland, hasidic holland, satmar hasidim, belz hasidim, sosha teitelbaum, conversion to hasidism, shtisel series, ultra-orthodox, becoming ultra-orthodox

Id: 1E54wVSn-wM

Length: 87min 53sec (5273 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 30 2023