Why Do You 'HATE' Vinland Saga?

it's January 10 2023 and the anime season is underway a whole stack of shows slated to air tomochan is a girl bungers stray dogs Trigon Stampede and of course the long-awaited dog simulator my life as unaki son's doc but every season there is a series everyone Waits and holds for especially if it is a studio as big and as impactful as mapper receiving two series from Studio where one of them being Finland Saga which they now had to adapt one of the most unique arcs in a manga series and live up to the expectations from season one and let's say that they stuck The Landing for most people it was an extremely vocal part of the audience that came from this season's run that thought it was the most disastrous slow and uninteresting season of anime that had previously excelled in fast-paced action political Intrigue and violence but seeing the reactions of those who watched it and loathed it was just as hard of a left turn that I expected to a certain degree I want to make this video to talk about why the audience reaction to Finland Saga was so turbulent and especially why the view of thorfin as a character suddenly became extremely mixed and answer these questions what changed in the story to cause this what was the reason what was the audience expecting and why did they react so strongly to it and finally delve into the criticisms of thorfen as a character and what the series is trying to say I'll be giving my opinion of course on why this change in the story's Direction was intentional from the start and in a way that doesn't require me to just say it it's made so if you drop the series and think you can't be persuaded go ahead click away that's fine but for those who want to hear what I have to say I will be spoiling obviously all of season two and talking about what will be coming in season three to Advocate my point about Finland saga's story but enough intro cue the video [Music] some of these criticisms became known to me as I made a video about the second season of Finland Saga before mostly to have a discussion but also alter the expectations of those who go into it thinking it is only going to be an action-packed Viking adventure with epic battles between nations and the series does still do that but the part that people began to question its setting was in the second season first season ends with thorfin failing to kill oscarlet the man he had been working for in order to receive an honorable duel so he could avenge his father force season 2 shows us that after Oscar lad's death thorfin is sold as a slave and becomes unbothered by his circumstances and how dire they are until he begins to realize his body's innate instinct to live the PTSD of his time at War and remembering the horrific actions he committed in his past this ushers in a huge development of character as thorfen begins to grow her and change he smiles for the first time in years he makes friends he learns to create things rather than destroy them reject violence and he vows to travel to the place of Finland a place Far West unsettled where he and his companions can create a settlement with no slaves no weapons and no war and so ends season two now because of this outcome and and admittedly slow season of 23 episodes people felt a strong Whiplash as the first season like I mentioned followed orphan being a Revenge driven Viking with little regard for helping others and killing anyone who stood in his way then the second season thorfen becomes a slave who farms and then a pacifist who vows to never hurt anyone ever again now this Whiplash only happened because the plot that is only seen on the surface thorfin loses his father who he loved and wishes to kill askalad that is the very basic plot on the surface but the reason this change occurred to something else is because this something else was the story that was being told from the very beginning when we are exposed to thorfin's Father Thor's Thor's was one of the mightiest worries of his time and decided to give up violence and live in Exile with his family to get away from the war hungry friends and family he grew up with when thorse is forced to enter that world again it is with great sorrow but everyone around him is excited for it when thorfen wishes to fight in a war he violently attacks the kids he play fights with only for Thor's to be shocked by these actions when thorfen finds his father's old weapons and and she's the dagger he will later use to kill hundreds of people his father asks him who he wishes to kill thorfin replies he is going to kill his enemies and and that is when Thor's utters the iconic line you have no enemies which I'll get to later because that is an interesting discussion on its own but it essentially showcases his character as a father figure and his stance on violence which thorfin doesn't understand of course we have enemies that is the world we live in if I don't kill them they will kill us thorse later fights an entire band of pirates led by Oscar besting them all without killing any of them using only non-lethal harm to incapacitate them but ultimately allows himself to be killed to save his son and guarantee his safety back to Iceland hoping I imagine that his son thorphan would understand his sacrifice and live his days happy and free but no thorfin stirs away on askalad's ship and he vows Revenge the seeds were planted they were there the whole entire origin story is fettered with plot elements and dialogue for our characters and audience to later understand that the point of Finland Saga is to get to Finland to create it now why was the intention of the story set in a viking era where the odds of being a pacifist are basically below zero well Makoto yukimura the Creator is someone who has described himself as a pacifist he wanted to tell a story about rejecting violence instead of relishing within it and surprise the most compelling way to tell the story was using a setting that is one of the most barbaric groups in all of history Vikings the culture that value fighting above all have a Lust For War and are rewarded in the afterlife for killing and being killed it also presents an alternative to popular Manga and Anime as the primary source of most conflict is resolved through battles but finland's Saga rejects this and looks to see if a character can change from the ideal Viking to a more gentle and kind protagonist with honest intentions and hopes for his future while still dealing with trauma and conflict in my personal and very obvious opinion it's an amazing juxtaposition I personally love characters who you can never imagine having another side to them that they would never change that they'll never be the person who they are right now and when they do that change it's like heroin to me do you have a Zuko character please put it in my veins dude but some veins rejected this weird analogy they didn't enjoy this development of the story even though it pays off what it intended from the beginning of the story if you say that's not true and that these seeds weren't planted then I don't think you've been paying attention but I'm not here to ridicule because I think there is a discussion to be had here with the views of the people didn't like it even if the group of people who didn't like it are such a vocal minority so let's break this down first issue I see with criticisms is that nothing happens in this Arc of the story and that no real development of character and plot take place and the parts that do do it extremely slow Devil's Advocate time if you're going to be watching the second season of the anime yes the arc is slow even when you read the Manga but again that's a different kind of pace altogether there is less action and literal violence from the previous season but development of character is undeniably there people take the assumption that while nothing is directly happening to the characters that means they're not growing or that change isn't taking place in season one thorfin does a lot like a lot of action and a lot of killing and how much does he change very little you could even argue barely at all the only two changes that take place in the first season in first Arc with thorfin is at the very beginning and the very end these events that shape his character the only thing that changes in the middle are his skills his ability to kill and his ability to get better at it while this is a very minute change it doesn't have any semblance on thorfin as a character it doesn't change his emotional weight but it's because of this that the next season makes so much more emotional sense which changes the lens of how the viewer saw action in season one as in season one it's just action it's violent but it's just entertainment in season 2 violence and action is horrific it is Warfare because the lens of which you view through it has changed many events happen more internally in season 2 with pretty much every character Anar becomes friends with thorf and despite the fact that his family were killed by Warriors who were just like thorfin thorfin tries to find a reason for living and accepts one all characters try to accept their past and possible future as slaves Warriors or leaders even Knute except accepting the horror of his future actions I think in terms of Manga and Anime the pace is completely different which is a fair criticism for adaptations but there are comments I had seen that say people who watch Shonen have a short attention span and don't understand Vinland Saga because it is not what they are used to but I think that this is actually a surface level argument it's easy to look at average Demon Slayer enjoyer shouting mid at the top of his lungs and nothing at episode 19. it's assumed they can't appreciate the in-depth character development and storytelling of a scene in series there is this appearance that sane and series fans who like more complex or extremely mature stories that are more Niche believe their stories are better written Illustrated conveyed and of a higher quality than a Shonen series I believe this is also a vocal minority and has a bit of a superiority complex I've seen this in a lot of my own comments in a lot of my videos my aforementioned Vinland Saga video has people saying that the the reason people don't like Finland is because the amount of Shonen action they are exposed to now sure expectations stem from what you know if you only experienced Shoujo Manga and Anime and then I stick berserk in your face you're going to be wondering where Tuxedo Mask is when the eclipse arrives but Shonen has delved into many dark themes and continues to put out series that feel less aimed toward the Dragon Ball era and even way past the adventure of One Piece which yes calm down fans I know one piece has violence don't hurt me I think it is more a matter of preference but not only that it's the way in which it's presented quick course Shonen aimed for young boys seen and aimed for young men and older anyone can read either demographic or any demographic but you'll find that characters goals are handled differently based on the demographic they target very successful Shonen have simplified the goals of the overall story as to have them be more accessible to understand find one piece and become king of the Pirates but become the Hokage find the Philosopher's Stone become the best hero become the wizard King get an anime become god of the new world save my sister and get revenge now I can hear you Shonen don't always have clear goals that's true but they reach the intended goal maybe just in a different way Slam Dunk play basketball to get the girl but later in the series it becomes play basketball because I actually really like it cnan has goals but they are not really the same or at least they're not presented in the same way Finland Saga thorfen Wants Revenge he fails he doesn't get it he is now unsure what he wants what is his reason for living what does he have to live for now he wishes to create Vinland a land of peace that is a Shonen goal for sure but he's doing it to atone and the question that's asked and presented to him is how can I turn how can I become a better person will I become a better person if I succeed do I even have the right to do this how do you achieve this Vagabond is also a great example follows a value on Samurai who wants to become the strongest but soon realizes after killing so many men he now wonders what true strength really is is it the power to destroy if you are infinite are you stronger or are you actually weaker if strength to fight is all you have how can you create something when you become the strongest what do you do then punpun a coming-of-age story a little guy grows up and his goals change the blob tells you this he wants to win the Nobel Prize he wants to save the world he wants the girl he likes to like him back he wants to find porn men who don't he wants to get a job that he likes he wants to be popular wants to have friends he wants to get a girlfriend but his life like everyone else's doesn't go exactly how you play it except for porn you will always find that but sainin is aimed at an older audience that can relate to the stories that feel almost representative of what happens when you get older perhaps your lifestyle that you thought would never change becomes uprooted and your plans for what your future are and they're a blur you maybe know what to to do but how and if you can and is it the right decision is something that's sane and caters towards people who don't love change will face change in their lives especially when family pass away your goals alter and change so do your priorities that is why I think people not enjoying Finland is not because they don't get it but what they prefer in entertainment is not something that reflects their life so much but prefer a story that helps them Escape it just for a little bit now Shonen can do that as well and Shonen excels in making you forget about your everyday life it can remind you you can relate to it because of it but it is more a form of escapism and entertainment that can be just as deep you can easily grasp the goal of these stories but succeed regardless of the obstacles with more positive reinforcement that's what I mean when I say it's more than a preference it's flavor it's the way it's presented to you I don't like the perspective that series like Naruto or any other major Shonen has no artistic value because the goals of the characters can be superficial a title or something that you can physically obtain it's something I see when sane and readers like to compare in a really Superior way and the reason I bring this all up is because fans have seen in series in general like to boast this unspoken superiority sometimes that sainin is objectively deeper that is an arrogant mindset to have to assume that about other stories that is like assuming a comedy cannot also bring you to tears or that a romance story can't also have action in it a war story can't also be anti-war oh see what I did there they're shown in that I've read which I have an emotional attachment to because of what it said and how well I felt it was said Bakuman is a series that is now in my top three favorite Shonen because of how I relate to it the struggles of creating stuff and how sometimes the stuff you can create can really fail and that hurts sometimes over praising a series that you think is just objectively better actually drives more people away in my previous video I said that there isn't going to be a lot of action so temper your expectations to which fans of Finland Saga were telling me to shut up and get more people into the series and don't drive people away to which I would rather have people who like the series enjoy it as opposed to force them to like it or mislead them and one of the reasons why this happens because sane and readers look we don't get a lot of adaptations and if we do sometimes they're pretty [ __ ] so when they happen they get really excited so with all of that out of the way is the criticism of Inland Saga as large as we think no I genuinely think it is a vocal minority that doesn't actually have an interest in a story like Finland it's a mix of expectations communal judgment preference of demographic Fair criticism of an adaptation's pace and the odd people who just call it mid because guess what they just want to make you mad so is that it it's the end of the video we went through everything right well there's one thing I haven't really touched upon and before this adaptation it was a simple line a line spoken only a few times to the effect of character development but now it has become such a meme and now seen as one of the most naive stupid and hated things about Vinland Saga I have no enemies is a line first uttered by force that I mentioned at the beginning of this video it is only remembered by thorfen years later at the end of season two and it was just shocked to see it become a huge meme but the line is meant to showcase the growth of thorfin as a character who took lives for selfish reasons so thorfin adopts the mindset that his father told him years ago believing there is no reason good enough to harm someone and that to have enemies is to indicate that there are those who you wish harm upon so by not having any there is no violence that you wish to commit to anyone that is why you don't have any enemies but there are people who find this to be the worst thing about the story and thorphin as a character I have many many comments talking about how they were really turned off by the idea that the story they stayed for which was Vikings Warfare politics action revenge is now pushing the idea of a character who does not want to fight or take part in any conflict that results in the suffering of others people have said that this mentality presented through the character is a non-subtle way of saying that violence and warfare is bad which I think is kind of obvious if you really really don't like that that is a thing you should probably get off this video and go talk to someone other comments state that this mentality is useless in a real setting of Vikings and has no chance to become something attainable in fact it's just a naive way of looking at the world and that people will want to do you harm you do have enemies and the world will always be this way because people are selfish and they want what they want others also highlight how they are not interested in a slice of Life character trying to deal with past trauma when the world has already been established as something that isn't catering towards that how can you have a story that remains a human drama with conflict when you have a character who wants to reject all conflict if you're someone who has these issues with the story and doesn't lack the direction because of these problems well I'm going to address them I'm not a master of Ethics but I like stories a lot so I'll do my best to give you reassurances for what is to come in the later seasons and also address these comments and critiques and to do that of course I'm going to be spoiling future chapters of the manga your last chance out now first the change in Direction which I've already discussed earlier it is meant to be used as a juxtaposition to the world the characters find themselves out Viking Warrior turn farmer turn pacifist to have it in this setting is just more compelling and also more challenging forth orphan as our main character if you follow the path of warfare in order to attain something like land a place a group of people you will always have people who are ready to follow you and reap the rewards they also love the idea of killing people who want to kill them first they can't kill me if I kill them first because they want to kill me and I want to kill them but if I kill them first I win as history has shown us very easy to do but what if instead we tried to take something we try and create it we create it without killing anyone without stealing from anyone without harming others sounds a lot harder but in a land where the former is normal that's more compelling you can compare it to other Series where the opposite is in fact like Kingdom conquer all of China to unite All Nations to do that we have to kill people does that mean this series is bad no it depends on the lens you look it through if it's a story about trying to create a world and not killing people guess what we should probably expect no killing to happen the fact that killing does happen shows us that this is a hard world to do it in second is the way in which the story is told for some people is extremely non-subtle the glaringly obviousness of violence is bad which I can understand people think is just a no-brainer of course violence is bad of course we shouldn't hurt people of course we shouldn't kill people but you'd be surprised how much of this is a foreign Concept in today's world here we are however many years later from sacrificing lands and friends to the old father and we still enjoy violence as consumers of entertainment violence is interesting to us even when it's not the main focus or conflict of whatever it is we're consuming you can see this in all our entertainment but even in just everyday life if you see two people arguing at a bar you can't help but look if people are full on punching and fighting on your street how many of us would peek through the curtains just to get a look or seeing groups of people fighting in public what is the first thing most people do they don't pull out their phones to call the authorities pull out their phones to record it we are fascinated by violence it is interesting and alluring to us you may think that the idea of non-violence to us in today's world is expected because we have learned to crack down on it restrict it we even monetize it as a sport but think of the Viking era it was expected it was your strength as a leader in how many battles you survived how many people you killed how easily you did it it was more than just a form of honor it was everything it was your entertainment your stories your Solutions your purpose and your motivating factor to reach Valhalla so through the lens of the everyday average Viking when you see a slave be punched continuously and not die and fall down from it claiming to have no people he wishes to kill or fight it's like seeing Netflix make a good anime adaptation it just doesn't happen the message of violence equals bad isn't the subtlety of the story it is the character's relationship with violence and the viewers as dolphin tries to find the Alternatives in conflict because when you see many chapters later a scene where good old thought girl bust down a fort screened how much he loves War wrestles a massive Bigfoot while referencing The Shining you'll be questioning whether or not you should be enjoying the violence that's happening or lamenting at it because in the world of Vikings Solutions are always through violence it's more just trying to wrestle with the idea of violence not that it's just only bad and that hurting people is a wrong thing it's about your relationship to it why do we love it why do we consume it why is it that I feel pulled towards it why when I'm angry do I want to hit something why can't I let it go the last kind of criticisms can be lumped together thorfin vows to create a place with no war or violence in Finland now I saw a lot of people take this as an approach to save the world from violence and end it all I'll just tell you now that's not what he's saying and that's not the case of the story is to end all violence what he aims to build is a settlement without the threat of it be free from slavery War things that are created to harm people but like with I have no enemies that's not how the real world kind of works the world is full of people who do selfish things and violent things to you or those you love because they can or they want to thorfin says he will continue to run even if violence and the rest of the world chases him with the way it works because in the real world you can't run from threats threats will always find you eventually and conflict will always arise in your life whether it be physical or non-physical so people take this as a sign of inaction that pacifism is to do nothing when it comes to pacifism there's different versions there's absolute and consequential 2. I and thorfen take the consequential route during the second season thorfin adopts absolute pacifism he vows to never cause harm to anyone ever again he's through with violence yet this actually doesn't last long because he has to fight snake to prevent him from taking another life so immediately after that and questioning whether or not it's possible to go through the world without harming someone at least once his mentality starts to change from absolute and adapts to a more modern version of consequential pacifism because one of the misconceptions about pacifism is that is the same as doing nothing because you are standing by your morals despite the atrocities that continue to happen that is not the choices he makes in future chapters after the end of the slave arcusthorphan begins his journey to Greece he comes across new and familiar faces who wish for him to engage in violence and those who force him to and he does he uses it to disarm to incapacitate to discombob populate it isn't easy but he uses the abilities he gained in war and the trauma he feels as a weapon for good he doesn't aim to kill he never wants to kill and he never seeks to attack first only in terms of self-defense a great example of how thorfin's pacifism is challenged is in chapter 114 which will take place in the very next season thorfin aynar and the Gang make camp on the coast of Norway and are approached by a bear seemingly too strong and without weapons that could actually do any damage they are saved by a hunter called hild who was tracking the bear she hears the others call thorphan by name after she introduces herself as the daughter of a man named rafinkel she Regals them with a tale of how she became a hunter and how she got her scar over her eye warriors attacked her Village and chased her into a ravine but she remembers their leader he was blonde and shouting orders to his men and the young boy who was no older than 14 who killed her father in front of her a boy wielding two daggers named thorphin thorfin in that moment remembers it all to avoid unnecessary Death he'll challenges him to a duel often engages to attack with no knife as he wishes not to kill but alone in the snow and with only the dead to taunt him from afar thorphin fails at this and he takes multiple crossbow bolts to his legs but Aina and even held's dead kin intervene thorfin mentions his intent to create a land that will help those live peacefully and create more lives than he ruined hilled scoffs it's such an idea declaring if she forgives him where shall her hate go who will answer her dead family's wishes and so a deal is made hild now owns thorfin's life and until he creates the land he speaks of she will watch him every day and will not hesitate to put a bolt through his skull if he deters from his oath if he kills or seeks to indulge in selfish acts then he will be killed I've seen so many articles and comments who all pose the question does thorfen fight again yes it pleases me to tell you yes he does fight again the next Arc is him getting caught in a civil war amongst Viking bands he arguably gets in more conflict gets more scars and more permanent damage to his body the more he doesn't choose to kill and he faces stronger opponents who he can't just knock out there are consequences to his choices but finding the Alternatives as opposed to killing are what he hopes to find and that is one of the interesting parts and the conflict that challenges his ideals the story is trying to point out yes the horror of warfare yes the complexities of violence but also a character who's growing in a world where it's consumed by it and choosing to go on a different path the choices that thorfin makes because he is still haunted by the Dead still has night terrors and the anger he has against those that killed his father still lingers they're not gone and now he has a living reminder of someone in his past who he wronged his anger continues to tempt him because it is the easy way out but what isn't easy is protecting your own life those you care about and to defeat your opponent without taking theirs that story shows you how difficult it can be you're more likely to be able to do a pacifist run and Dishonored or a no hit Speed Run in Dark Souls having a character change or grow by small and large degrees is key to a story if they're not growing or changing the story stagnates I don't care how brutal the world is I don't care how interesting it is if you don't have characters who are going to grow and change in this world of violence or this world of Uncertain brutality what is the point of us being here if we don't have a character who challenges it or is evoked by it even if you don't agree with the character or in some stories if you believe the character is doing the wrong thing the fact that they are changing and making decisions makes them characters they aren't us we're not playing D and D tonight I had made this comparison before in a previous video the character of thorfin can be compared with the character of Aaron from Attack on Titan now this comparison makes sense because they are characters who go about the emptiness of Revenge differently and yukimura said how he loves isayama's work so those who don't believe these characters should be in the same sentence stop jumping on the bed you're going to dislocate something out of these characters one learns of Truth and decides to try and create something one learns of Truth and wishes to destroy these characters are Polar Opposites but the criticism that people have about them is that their motivations don't make sense but they do I just don't agree with the one who wants genocide people have problems with their development because they feel very 180 happen too fast and then when Sharon slowly people also reject happen too slowly people want characters to develop how they imagine I have preferences but if a story that has characters that grow and change whether or not a personal agree with them is still at the very least interesting even better if make compelling you think I agree with guts and a bunch of [ __ ] he's doing if you want to see action in the future of the anime yes you'll see it do you think having no enemies is impossible and can't create a place in Finland then be like Hill wait and see but if you don't like where the story is going because it's not your cup of tea that's totally fine it is I do not care that much and neither should anyone the point of video wasn't to get you to do that I know that people will always hate stories for whatever reason because of taste preference style and characters we can't all love a single story and I don't think that we should this video has gone around the similar way in which violence is debated in Finland Saga I just wanted to maybe show those who may have had their minds made up that there is more to come and to explore what I think and is an interesting discussion maybe I over complicated the reasons maybe it's also still not that simple maybe both but if you had to take away anything from this video yukimura pooled off one of the greatest gambles in manga he presented a world that most people assumed was going to be the story but tricked us full dust he did a Spielberg and pulled the Veil over what you think the story is about when it's about something else entirely depending on his ending it might be very interesting whether he goes towards history's tunes of how things actually happened or maybe like thorf and he finds an alternative but besides all my rambling if I could just leave you with one very last thing to think about it's just that Demon Slayer is like the most mid-shire Tundra is such a boring character he's too goody good Two Shoes [ __ ] plot armor what a load of horse [ __ ] oh that was a bit of a ramble this video has been an extensive and hard script to write but I hope you guys enjoyed it and I hope hopefully for once on YouTube we can have a discussion in the comments it doesn't result in violence but please let me know what you guys think down below tell me of the points that you think tell me about your thoughts on Finland Saga and maybe the future tell me maybe you were surprised of the things I mentioned that will happen later tell me of what you hope to see or I guess he even tell me about stories that you had a similar experience black with Finland Saga or characters that you feel were very surprising in how they developed any and all discussions is pretty much welcome but that's all from me guys I appreciate if you made it to the end my name is mugen as always have a good one [Music] [Music] foreign foreign [Music]

Channel: Mugen

Views: 67,316

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Id: VSB20o_pfEA

Length: 33min 26sec (2006 seconds)

Published: Sat Aug 12 2023