Who Has The Priesthood?, by Sandra Tanner

okay our topic tonight is who has the priesthood tonight we want to compare the LDS priesthood claims with priesthood as presented in the Bible Mormonism claims to be the only true church with the only authority to act in God's name in the sixth article of faith of the LDS Church we read we believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive Church viz apostles prophets pastors teachers evangelists etc and that's in the back of their pearl of great price one of their books of Scripture the LDS Church believes that God removed priesthood authority from the earth shortly after the death of Christ apostles in the encyclopedia britannica britannica and the cyclopædia of Mormonism we read LDS rejection of most post biblical Christianity is based on belief in an ancient apostasy apostolic Authority ceased just after the New Testament period and without apostolic leadership and authority the church was soon overwhelmed by alien intellectual and cultural pressures and a quote but one wonders how the early church could go astray so quickly and priesthood be lost according to Joseph Smith four of Christ's disciples did not die but have been left on the earth to do missionary work these include the Apostle John and three Book of Mormon disciples according to the Doctrine and Covenants section 7 John the Apostle was transformed and Jesus left him on earth to do evangelism Joseph Smith claimed to receive by revelation the following information about John that's okay voting for the Doctrine and Covenants section 7 verses 1 through 3 and the Lord said unto me John my beloved what desirous thou and I said unto Him lo give unto me power over death that I may live and bring souls unto thee and the Lord said unto me verily verily I say unto thee because thou desirous this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory and shall prophesy before nations Kindred's tongues and people I might mention it doesn't sound like this would be done in secret right it sounds like we would know about this if he's going to be in front of nations Kindred's tongues of people evidently Joseph Smith misinterpreted John 21 20 through 23 you can go read that about the discussion of whether or not John was going to stay on the earth Jesus didn't say in that section that John would remain alive but merely pointed out to Peter that John's future mission was not Peters concern but Joseph Smith took it and interpret it to mean John would be left on earth besides this the Book of Mormon also teaches that three Nephites Jesus disciples in the new world did not taste of death but were transformed and would remain on earth to do evangelism and you can read about that in the Book of Mormon in 3rd Nephi chapter 28 again raising the question of how could the church go into apostasy LDS apostle Jeffrey Holland explained the role of the three named fights in our day these three Nephites continue in their translated state today just as when they went throughout the lands of Nephi they are yet ministering to qu Gentile and the scattered tribes of Israel even all nations Kindred's tongues and people and a quote how could there have been a total apostasy as asserted by the LDS Church if there have been four apostles on the earth since the time of Christ why wouldn't they have been able to ordain future apostles and keep the church from falling into a total apostasy and where are the reports of their ministries I've been told that well things got so bad here that God kind of took him out of the scene and I'm thinking well didn't God know that at the time he told him they would live till he came back it just seems to make God a little short-sighted anyways Jeffrey Holland thinks they're still out there preaching so let's examine a few of the specific Offices of the LDS priesthood next one the LDS Church priesthood is divided into two groups ironic and Melchizedek the chart on the screen shows the way the offices are broken down and so the Melchizedek Priesthood has the offices of profit apostle seventy patriarch high priest and elder and if you were being ordained into the Melchizedek Priesthood your first your entry level would be as an elder at eighteen or older and then usually by time you get to be middle-aged you might be advanced to be a high priest each state has a patriarch and 70s used to be on the local level but a few years ago they I don't know if they issued revelations on this stuff but anyways they changed it to where we don't have 70s in the local Ward's anymore now they have 70s in the top leadership of the church and then you have the Twelve Apostles plus the Prophet and the two apostles that serve him as counselors and then when we look at the ironic priesthood we have bishop who is a presiding high priest so he also has an acoustic priesthood and there's one bishop in each ward he's the like pastor then there are three offices for the teenage boys deacon at twelve teacher at fourteen and priest at sixteen and then if the kids going to go on a mission he's made an elder at eighteen I might interject here that division is a recent development and Mormonism are not sure just when they made the change of going to teenage boys but when Norman ISM started these were all adult offices they weren't teenaged that it was not set up to be teenagers it was set up to be all adults since the LDS Church makes a specific claim that their priesthood is the same as in the Bible we need to compare their offices with those mentioned in Scripture first we'll look at the Old Testament priesthood and then the authority in the New Testament so we'll look first at the ironic priesthood prior to the law of Moses men such as Abraham offered sacrifices to God but not as part of any priesthood when God set up the priesthood in the days of Moses he restricted it to Aaron and his adult descendants who were of the tribe of Levi and if you want to look at that further it's numbers 3 1 through 10 numbers 8 5 through 22 and Exodus 38 21 this would disqualify most Mormons as they do not claim to be descended from Aaron many of them believe they are from the tribe of Ephraim but this would not make them eligible for the Aaronic priesthood now this gets us back to that position in the Melchizedek Priesthood where it says they have a patriarch in every state the patriarch gives you a blessing and in your blessing it declares what your lineage is or at least for a lot of people I don't know how many get a declaration of lineage these days but my patriarchal blessing told me I was from Ephraim and I think that everyone I know in my immediate circle would all have been from Ephraim I know once in a while if as a Jewish person they might be told they're from Benjamin if your American Indian you'll be told you're from Manasseh but generally they tell you you're for me for him which disqualifies you from priesthood even Jesus could not hold the Aaronic priesthood because he descended from the Tri juda hebrews 7:14 explains for it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood there were only two offices in the erotic priesthood priests and one high priest the priest prepared and offered the daily sacrifices in first the tabernacle and then later in the temple the high priest was the only one allowed into the holy of holies which he did once a year on the Day of Atonement to offer sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel the priesthood of the Old Testament was brought to an end with the death of Christ number three in Hebrews 7 11 through 12 we read if therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood for under it the people received the law what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchizedek and not be called after the order of Aaron for the priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the law also in Matthew 27 we read that the veil of the temple which closed off the Holy of Holies was split in two at the time of Christ's death thus showing that the way into the presence of God no longer required the Jewish priesthood system with its animal sacrifices since Christ Himself was the Lamb of God offered for our sins and he is now our only High Priest and we'll go back to the chart again looking at the ironic positions thereof deacon teacher priests deacons in numbers 8 23 through 25 God set the minimum age of the ironic priesthood at 25 and there were only priests and one high priest the Old Testament has no mention of deacons the LDS Church ordains young men deacons their first office in the Aaronic priesthood at the age of 12 however Paul instructed Timothy Deacon's are to be mature men and faithful husbands which doesn't seem to fit twelve-year-old boys and for that you look at first Timothy three eight through 12 teachers as part of the ironic priesthood and the LDS Church a young man is ordained a teacher at the age of fourteen this office is separate from the assignment of teaching a class such as Sunday School the New Testament passages about teachers do not make them part of a special priesthood teachers should be mature Christians able to teach others according to 2nd Timothy 2:2 not teenagers and in fact I think if you went back and read the LDS Doctrine and Covenants sections on the different priesthood callings and duties of the priesthood of ironic priesthood holders you can see that it was originally intended for all adults the instructions for them don't fit 12 years and 14 year old kids then they have the office of priests for the 16 year olds in the LDS Church a young man is ordained a priest an ironic priesthood at the age of 16 and does not need to be a descendant of Aaron this was never done in the Old Testament there are Jewish priests mentioned in the New Testament but an office of priest is never mentioned in the Christian Church and I think many times Mormons when they read through the book of Acts for instance and they see priests and high priest mentioned and the temple and those different things they don't realize none of that has to do with early Christian Church well the early Jewish Christians met in the outer courts of the temple but that Christians never had charge of the temple they were not doing any kind of services in the building they were just in the outskirts around the temple and they some priests that converted to Christianity from Judaism but in the Christian Church itself we see nothing of an office of authority where someone is labeled a priest then we look at the Melchizedek Priesthood now kaznyk is mentioned in Genesis 14 17 through 20 as the king of Salem which is Jerusalem and a priest of God who blessed Abraham in Psalms 110 for a promise was given that his priesthood would be forever that promise was fulfilled in Jesus Christ as indicated in chapters 5 through 7 of the book of Hebrews where Melchizedek is a identified as a type of Christ Hebrews 5:10 tells us that Christ is the only high priest quote after the order of Melchizedek then in Hebrews 7 we read that there were many high priests due to death but Jesus had a superior priesthood because his continues due to his endless life and he has the only high priest in the early Christian church number 5 in Hebrews 7:26 through 27 we read for it was fitting for us to have such a high priest wholly innocent undefiled separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens who does not need daily like those high priests to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people because this he did once for all when he offered up himself the only Christian priesthood mentioned in the New Testament is the spiritual priesthood of every believer next Peter wrote in 1st Peter 2:9 but you are a Chosen People a royal priesthood a holy nation God's special possession that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light notice that men are not singled out as the only ones holding this priesthood it is for every Christian and is referred to often as the priesthood of all believers now we come to elders and bishops in Mormonism a man is ordained an elder upon entering the Melchizedek Priesthood while the New Testament mentions elders and for instance acts 14:23 Titus 1 5 through 6 first Peter 5 1 through 3 they are never referred to as a part of a priesthood system in 1st Timothy 3:1 and Titus 1:7 the word bishop that appears in the King James Version of the Bible but the word simply means overseer or steward and is rendered in newer translations as simply overseer steward in newer versions of the Bible Bishop is not a separate office in the books of Timothy and Titus but a continuation of Paul's instructions about elders when Paul gave instructions to Timothy about leadership he did not mention anything about ordaining men to either the ironic or Melchizedek priesthoods instead the emphasis was on choosing mature Christians in 2nd Timothy 2:2 Paul wrote and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful faithful men who will be able to teach others also so that was the criteria not a special ordination but that they were faithful Christians with the ability to teach now we go to 70s in the LDS Church of 70 is a specific office in their mouth kaznyk priesthood he is a type of missionary and overseer of a given area of the church that's in DNC 107 verse 25 you want to look it up Joseph Smith evidently bred about Christ sending out 70 men in Luke 10:1 some Bibles by the way say 72 anyways Joseph Smith turned this event into an ordination of men into a specific office of priesthood the LDS Church has now expanded this to different quorums of 70 so they have seven presidents of seventy that first form is 70 the second form of 17 third fourth so they got all kind of seven and the 70 doesn't have to be seventy people I mean just they call it 70 but you don't have to have 70 people which I kind kind of odd but anyways if you gotta have Twelve Apostles why don't you have to have 270 70 s nice don't get this however there is no mention in the New Testament of anyone ever being appointed to be a replacement of any of these 70 men surely if such an office was to be part of the church it would have been mentioned in acts or the other letters in the New Testament now looking at high priests while there are thousands of high priests in the LDS Church there was only one Jewish high priest at a time the high priest was part of the Aaronic priesthood Hebrews 5:1 explains that the duties of the Jewish high priest were to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins Mormon high priests do not offer any sacrifices so they are not following the Old Testament pattern the Jewish high priest served as an example and shadow of heavenly things and we read about that in Hebrews chapter 8 Christ fulfilled this when he offered up himself and you can read about that in Hebrews 7 22 through 27 he is the only high priest in the Christian Church because Christ lives forever his priesthood cannot pass to another there are no references in the New Testament to any Christian holding the office of high priest now looking at pastors I think this is early at number 7 Mormons will often use Ephesians 4:11 when trying to prove their system of priesthood this verse reads and he gave some apostles some prophets some evangelists some pastors and teachers the LDS Church however does not have any pastors one of their Apostles Joseph fielding Smith explained the term pastor does not refer to an order in the priesthood like deacon teacher or priest a bishop is a pastor so is an elder who has charge of a branch and a quote but it seems strange that the Mormons assists the words apostles and teachers our specific offices have priesthood but do not believe that Pastor Ora banja lists our priesthood offices so they just changed the rules for whatever they want so we look at evangelists or patriarch infusions 4:11 mentions evangelists yet there's no such office in the Mormon Church instead they claim that the original meaning has been lost and that evangelist is supposed to be patriarch Joseph fielding Smith explained an evangelist is a patriarch the patriarch to the church holds the keys of blessing for the members of the church now in number 8 Bruce mcConkie he wrote having lost the true knowledge of priesthood in its offices the false traditions of the sectarian world have applied the designation evangelist to traveling preachers missionaries and revivalists well yes because that's what it means there is no evidence that the Greek word evangelist ever carried the meaning of patriarchy the Greek word translated evangelist carries the meaning of someone who proclaims the good news not one who gives prayer blessings to church members in the LDS Church a patriarch gives a blessing to a member as a sort of spiritual blueprint for his or her life and you usually get that as a teenager in Mormonism next we'll look at apostles and prophets as Judas betrayed Christ there was one man chosen to replace him as part of the 12 apostles and you see acts 1 21 through 23 to qualify for this position the person had to be an eyewitness to the full Ministry of Jesus including the resurrection there is no evidence in the New Testament that anyone ever was chosen to replace one of the original twelve after the one that was picked in acts 1 in Mormonism the president of the church is considered a prophet and apostle LDS apostle Bruce mcConkie stated apostles and prophets are the foundation upon which the organization of the true church rests number 9 in trying to establish the deed for apostles and prophets in the church Mormons appeal to first Corinthians 12 28 now you are the body of Christ and individual members of it and God has appointed in the church first apostles second prophets their teachers then miracles and gifts of healing helping administrating and various kinds of tongues however if one reads the entire section from verses 27 to 31 it is obvious that Paul is discussing various ministries or gifts in the church not listing specific priesthood offices otherwise you'd have an office of helping an office of administering an office of various kinds of tons notice also that Paulus Apostles first and prophets second so he says he has appointed in the church first apostles second prophets but and third teachers which is all out of order for mormon priesthood because in Mormonism the Prophet is the top of the ladder of priesthood offices and the Apostles serve under the Prophet and teachers are way down the line clear down to the 14 year old kids also in Mormonism the office of teachers bestowed on 14 year old boys not a man third in rank to the Prophet and apostles another problem for the LDS position is the concept of having three Apostles in his First Presidency that oversee the Twelve Apostles this adds up to 15 apostles and is not the same as Jesus Twelve Apostles they also maintain that Peter James and John were the first presidency of the early church but they were part of the twelve not in addition to the twelve if Mormonism is going to insist that the church today must set up exactly as it was under Christ then they have too many apostles the Mormons cannot have it both ways either they are a restoration that is exactly like the New Testament church or they are setting up something different from the early church in the February 2004 Ensign LDS President Gordon B Hinckley laid out the four cornerstones of Mormonism the first is Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation second is Joseph Smith's first vision third is the Book of Mormon and forth is priesthood authority the LDS Church claims that those holding its priesthood are the only ones recognized by God to perform baptisms and ordinances of the gospel Mormonism read sex baptisms done by any other Church the LDS manual doctrines of the gospel explains what is the LDS priesthood it is nothing more nor less than the power of God delegated to men by which man can act legitimately not assuming that Authority nor borrowing it from generations that are dead and gone I find that quote a little odd the last part of that that we're not that they are not assuming that authority nor borrowing it from generations that are dead and gone well excuse me looks to me like we got one hundred and some-odd years here of borrowing priesthood rights from the dead and relying on past ordination so I don't see how they can separate themselves from other churches that might claim to have some sort of priesthood passed down from person to person that seems to be what they're doing the LDS Church teaches that this Authority must be acquired by proper means in the doctrines of the gospel we read that every priesthood Act must be done quote in the proper way and after the proper order this raises the question as to whether or not Joseph and Oliver were baptized in ordained by proper priesthood Authority in the quote proper way Joseph Smith's account of the event is published in the pearl of great price in it Joseph Smith relates that while working on the translation of the Book of Mormon in the May of 1829 he and Oliver Cowdery became concerned about baptism and went out into the woods to pray this is a quote this is Joseph Smith while we were thus employed praying and calling upon the Lord a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light and having laid his hands upon us he ordained us meaning Joseph and Oliver saying upon you my fellow servants in the name of Messiah I confer the Aaron which holds the keys of the ministering of angels and the gospel of repentance and a baptism by immersion for the remission of sins the next part I will post on the overhead miss number 10 so be easier for you to follow the sequence of events and this is continuing the quote after on the back of the pearl of great price he said this ironic priesthood had not the power of laying out of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost but that this should be conferred on us Hereafter and he commanded us to go and be baptized and gave us directions that I should baptize oliver cowdery and that afterwards he should baptize me accordingly we went and were baptized i baptized him first and afterwards he baptized me after which I laid my hands on his head and ordained him to the Irani priesthood and afterwards he laid his hands on me and adoring ordained me to the same priesthood for so we were commanded it was on the fifteenth day of May 1829 that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger and baptized how could the angel else were identified as John the Baptist ordained them to the priesthood before they were baptized according to LDS doctrine today a man must be baptized by someone holding the LDS priesthood authority before he can be ordained to the priesthood so you get into this whole circle of which came first the baptism or the ordination if John the Baptist's ordination at the beginning was valid why did Joseph and Oliver need to baptize each other and then reordain each other to the same priesthood why wouldn't the angel baptize them first and then ordain them Merl be bateman one of the top leaders of the LDS Church emphasized the necessity of restoring proper priesthood authority to Joseph Smith quote one of the remarkable evidences of the restoration is the testimony of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery regarding the manner in which the priesthood and his directing powers were returned to earth John the Baptist brought back the ironic priesthood with the keys of repentance and baptism Peter James and John restored not only the Melchizedek Priesthood but also the keys of the kingdom still going on a quote in contrast 19th century ministers in the Palmyra environs not understanding the great apostasy that had taken place believed in an entirely different process for priesthood reception they believed that the power to preach came through an inner calling to a priesthood of believers and that was in the inciting for in November 2003 if such keys were needed why didn't Peter James and John restore both the ironic and Melchizedek Priesthood Mormonism claims that they held that those three men held the authority for both priesthoods so why would John the Baptist be needed at all well I think it's because it's an afterthought he's just thought of the ironic priesthood and then he gets to thinking about the mystic stuff later if Peter James and John conferred the priesthood on Joseph and Oliver when did it happen because they say they give a specific date for the ironic priesthood and then sometime after that Peter James and John came in his story printed at the back of the pearl of great price Joseph Smith stated that on May 15th 1829 the ironic priesthood was conferred upon him and Oliver Cowdery while Smith is confident on the date for the ironic priesthood there is no date given for his ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood the history of the church by Joseph Smith shows that there is real confusion as to when Peter James and John supposedly appeared the footnote on Pitts note on page 61 of the history of the church states before the 6th of April 1830 and probably before or that very month of June 1829 had expired Peter James and John had come and conferred upon Joseph and Oliver the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood see it's speculation as to the date today the LDS Church maintains that after the spring of 1829 both priesthoods were functioning in the church the Mormon Church was established 1830 and that by their claim Joseph and his followers already had priesthood before they set up the church however the historical documents of the period did not show any such teaching historian D Michael Quinn explained a closer look at contemporary records indicates that men were first ordained to the higher priesthood over a year after the church's founding no mention of angelic ordinations can be found in original documents until 1834 and 35 thereafter accounts of the visit of peter james and john by Cowdrey and smith remained vague and contradictory the earliest historical documents show that the concept of the ironic and Melchizedek priesthoods were products of Joseph Smith's evolving theology and were not taught prior to 1831 this is important for their priesthood claims that they had to have before they founded the church Mormonism maintains that when John the Baptist appeared to Smith and Cowdrey in 1829 they received the Roenick priesthood which included the offices of deacon teacher and priest when Peter James and John supposedly appeared a short while later they conferred on Smith and Cowdrey the Melchizedek Priesthood which included the offices of elder seventy high priest Bishop patriarch apostle and prophet while one can find mention of such offices as elder or teacher in early LDS documents these were not considered part of a larger priesthood system such as Melchizedek or Roenick Smith seems to have initially used the designations of elders and teachers in much the same way that other churches of the day would have used those terms the high priesthood was an addition people reading the current edition of the doctrine of covenants assumed that the revelations read the same as they were originally printed however there have been important provisions relating to priesthood and these next illustrations I'm going to be going through our areas that were a concern for me as a young person as I was studying the truth claims of Mormonism when I saw how Joseph Smith had rewritten his revelations to put in later teachings into an earlier timeframe as though they were there at the beginning bothered me that it seemed like a counterfeit it wasn't telling the story as it really happened he's doctoring the story the first printing of Smith's revelations in book form was in 1833 in a work titled book of Commandments later in 1835 a new edition was prepared changing many of the original revelations and adding new ones the title was also changed to Doctrine and Covenants chapter 24 of the 1833 book of Commandments this is the first book form of Joseph's revelations gave instructions about elders priests teachers and deacons but made no mention of two priesthoods when this revelation was reprinted in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants which today is section 20 dozens of words were added to the text to include such offices as high councilors high priests high priesthood and slide 11 okay I realized that you cannot read that but I wanted you to be able to see how the words written on the site of that all would have to be supplied into the text to have it read the same as a current doctrine of covenants now if you want to see these illustrations in a readable form on our website at UT LM gorg we have our book changing world of mormonism online and there's a chapter in there on the changes in the revelations and these illustrations are in there and the photos are clear enough that you can read the words that have been supplied and you can read the verses of which sections and things that it came out of when I saw how this revelation had been altered it was very disturbing to my confidence in Joseph Smith's call from God we're not dealing with translation of foreign languages we're talking about English if God speaking to Joseph Smith in English we assume that his scribe can record it accurately and I assume that the creator of the universe would know a couple of years ahead of time what he wanted the church to be doing I don't see why you would have to go 2 years later and redo the revelations between the 33 printing and the 1835 editions okay let's go to the next one illustration and this doesn't get any better as far as your ability to read it but you get a sense for how much text had to be added in to that section part of the wording that's been added into these two different sections are wording about priesthood amongst other things but in this particular one where you have the big section that goes down the side and then around on to the bottom part of what it says down there that was added in was the story about Peter James and John appearing to Joseph Smith so towards the bottom it says and also with Peter and James and John whom I have sent unto you by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles and a special witnesses of my name and then it goes on further to talk about the keys of my kingdom so he's trying to backdate into earlier revelations concepts about priesthood there were not there at the time of the dating of the actual revelation but as Mormonism moves from Independence Missouri where the book of Commandments was printed and they go to Kirtland where they do the 1835 DNC they're getting new converts they're losing some of the earlier converts a lot of people coming into the church at that time would have not seen the 1833 book of Commandments and would not have been aware that the changes had even been made LDS historian Gregory a prince wrote although in the Mormon Church today the term priesthood refers to this bestowed Authority such a relationship did not develop until years after the founding of the church initially Authority was understood to be inherent in the terms offices three offices elder priest and teacher were present by August of 29 as were the ordinances of Baptism Confirmation and ordination but the word priesthood was not used in reference to these for another three years mr. prince goes on to explain that while the book of mormon contains references to high authority they were not understood in terms of priesthood he concluded it was not until several months after the June 1831 General Conference when the high priesthood was conferred that the term priesthood entered Mormon usage at all and that's from his book power from on high the development of Mormon priesthood and if you wanted to read more on how this all came about and was expanded through the years mr. Prince book is one of the major books covering that topic thus we see that at the time of the founding of Mormonism in 1830 there was no teaching or awareness of Joseph Smith claiming to have received either the ironic priesthood or the Melchizedek Priesthood in 1829 another example of changing revelations to include Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthood information is seen by comparing Smith's 1831 revelation which was printed in the 1832 Church newspaper evening a morning star and compared it with the current version of the Doctrine Covenants section 68 and this is slide 13 so again you see all of the words written down the side that have to be supplied into the written text to have it read like a current Doctrine and Covenants on the big Edition on the one side some of the words that were added in are the words the first presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood later on high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood authority to officiate lesser offices bishops literal descendant of Aaron no Catholic priesthood mentioned again the presidency if the church is mentioned so you get these different concepts being pushed back into an earlier time frame also sections 2 and 13 of the current doctrine and covenants which mentioned priesthood were not printed in the 1833 book of Commandments they were extracted from Joseph Smith's history which wasn't started until 1838 and were not added to the doctrine of covenants until 1876 so even in the early days of Mormonism there would have been revelations you wouldn't even have seen that came in later so we see this evolving of priesthood concepts over many years as Joseph Smith's Church began to grow so did the need for clearer delineation of authority thus the back dating and insertion of priesthood claims into the revelations David Whitmer one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon related the following concerning those additions and remember David Whitmer was in the room when many of the early revelations were dictated quote Authority is the word we used for the first two years in the church this matter of two orders our priesthood in the Church of Christ and lending a priesthood of the old law being in the church all originated in the mind of Sidney Rigdon this is the way the high priests and the priesthood as you have it was introduced into the Church of Christ almost two years after its beginning and after we had already baptized and confirmed about 2,000 souls into the church and that's an a little pamphlet called an address to all believers in Christ that David Whitmer wrote in 1887 I find it interesting Mormons will often refer to the testimony of their three witnesses that they always believed the Book of Mormon and they'd like to say David Whitmer even though he didn't come back to the church after he apostatize he always maintained his belief in the Book of Mormon and then I like to remind him yes well he said a lot of other things other than he believed the Book of Mormon he also said Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and invented the whole priesthood concept but they don't read his whole statement they only read the little paragraph the sentence that they like and ignore the rest Whitmer also condemned the LDS leaders for endorsing the rewriting of Smith's revelations between their first printing in the book of Commandments in 1833 and the second printing in the doctrine of covenants in 1835 Whitmer wrote you have changed the revelations from the way they were first given and as they are today to support the error of brother Joseph in taking upon himself the office of seer to the church you have changed the revelations to support the error of high priests you have changed the revelations to support the error of a president of the high priesthood High counselors etc as a page 49 of his address in recent years the LDS Church has been more open about the textual revisions in Smith's revelations yet they continued to insist that the priesthood was restored in 1829 and in fact you will find a difference between what is said in General Conference and what the Mormon historians put up on the Joseph Smith papers project the Mormon historians are all aware of the changes and problems with the claims for restoration of priesthood but the General Authorities continued to say in conference that the the storyline is absolute Joseph and Oliver got the priesthood in 29 they started the church in 1830 and these were established positions in the church from 29 forward if the Melchizedek and ironic priesthoods were known and used prior to the printing of the 1833 book of Commandments it certainly seems strange that it contains no such teaching so the church has been going 3 years when they print the book of Commandments it should have had that material in it researcher lamar petersen concluded there seems to be no support for the historicity of the restoration of the priesthood in journals diaries letters nor printed matter prior to October 1834 in conclusion thus we see that beside the problem that mormon priesthood concepts are not in accord with New Testament the lack of historical references in early LDS documents to priesthood restoration leaves us with no reason to accept the Mormon claim of priesthood authority while Mormons insist that there needs to be a prophet at the head of the church they seem to ignore the New Testament warnings of false prophets Matthew 24:24 warns for false Christ's and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive if possible even the elect we should test those that claim to be prophets in 1st John 4:1 we are counseled beloved do not believe every spirit but test the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world if the LDS people want to truly follow the New Testament model they will need to renounce their claims to a Roenick and milk ascetic priesthood and embrace the priesthood of all believers and number 14 in 1st Peter 2:4 through 5 we read as you come to him meaning Jesus the living stone rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him you also like living stones are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ Christians everywhere looked to Jesus death and resurrection as the atonement for our sins trusting Christ alone for eternal life and thus becoming part of his holy priesthood thank you [Applause] we'll have a great period of question and answer I would ask that Mike so I think I have to stand here hahaha so go ahead I'm okay well they got camera set up - no we're good okay go ahead David Whitmer no right right from the beginning when Gerald was a rebellious teen his bishop started hitting it was time for him to consider straightening up and going on a mission and he read the Encyclopedia article on Mormonism and found that it mentioned splinter groups in Mormonism he didn't know the reigning other kind of Mormons and then he found out about the reorganized LDS Church and so he went over there to see what they were about and the pastor started telling him everything that was wrong with Brigham Young and how we need to scuttle all that and just go back to Joseph Smith well while he was visiting at the reorganized Church he met a barber who had a barber shop down town called James Wartell and at the back of mr. Bartels barber shop was a huge collection of all the early printings of early mormon books and he had probably one of the largest private collections of rare mormon books in the state and Gerald went down to his bar shop to see his collection and James Wartell gave him a copy of David Whitmer's pamphlet and said you in your spiritual journey you need to read David Whitmer's pamphlet and consider what he said about the origins of how the church developed and when Gerald read that and whitmer talks about the changes in the different sections of the doctrine of covenants Gerald was furious they were sure that Whitmer must be lying so I thought well someone odd exposes if Whitmer is making this all up there ought to be something done about this but he wanted to see the originals and so he got in his jalopy and drove across Kansas and went to Independence Missouri not knowing anybody and visited around to the different splinter groups and while he was there he went to the Church of Christ temple art group and they showed him an original book of Commandments and so that verified David Whitmer statement that the revelations in fact had been changed and that started Gerald on his journey of studying the early documents find out what all had been changed why he had things been changed why was the church covering up what had been changed so that when I met him he very early on showed me what murse pamphlet that to show me that these revelations had been changed and because of that I went down to San Wohlers bookstore that's now run by the grandpa the grandson of the guy that first opened the bookstore and went in there and bought a reprint of the 1833 book of Commandments and a current doctrine of covenants and I took it home and adopt my grandma to read it with me i sat with the current DNC in my grandma with the 33 book of Commandments and we went through the whole book of Commandments and I marked in my DNC in the margins where I could if it was just a few words I wrote them in if it was a big section like we saw in these illustrations I had it just right on the side see such a such page at the book of Commandments because to picked it right in and going through those was a very disillusioning experience that the creator the universe surely could have said the revelations right why would he need to go back two years or three years later and revise them but all of that study came out of seeing David Whitmer's pamphlet and rising to the challenge of is he telling the truth I can check this out and then at that time when we did our study back in 1959 in the Dark Ages the libraries were just getting photocopies into the libraries at that time they did have micro films but to walk in and get a 10 cent photocopy wasn't happening but I went up to the University of Utah special collections and saw different photo reprints of the original books in some cases the original books and that launched us into our whole journey so Whitmer was a big factor in how he got started in our research this is all very yep well it's very confusing supposedly in 29 1829 the year before he Smith founds his church John the Baptist comes and gives to the Roenick priesthood and in the next month whatever whatever Peter James and John come but there's no recorded Church documents that talk about this early on in the 1831 you start to get language in the writings about some kind of authority but it's not Melchizedek Roenick yet that doesn't develop until 34 and 35 so through the 29 to 1835 time period you will find bits and pieces of language relating to priesthood but it is not Melchizedek ironic yet and so you have to follow through how this changes in the different Diaries Church manuscripts and printed revelations as this evolves and that and the church historians concede that there's nothing before 1831 about priesthood there but at 31 it's just vague about priesthood it's not ironic milk hasn't kept its high priesthood but it's not identified yet and this whole idea Peter James and John is a later thing that's plugged back into the revelations in the book of Commandments so it's a very complicated story and unless you sat down and read all the different documents and reference these things it's hard to follow it through on the Mormon website of Joseph Smith's papers they have a I don't remember what the sessions call but they have a flowchart or statements on priesthood but they minimize the importance of the differences but they do list the different documents but the wording they have as they introduce the different documents you keeps you from seeing how big a problem it is but they do at least list the different documents on there but these historians concede the problem it's just the church conference people that haven't got the memo yes well they say that you can be influenced by the Holy Spirit but you do not have the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit until you have had baptism and hands laid on you to confer the Holy Spirit on you so they have a sort of halfway availability at the spirit to the unbeliever but you don't get the full power until the church officially lays hands on you and bestows the Holy Spirit on you yeah that's holding it's not going through yet it's that it's a matter of how you hold it to shorts right well we right it's a big problem on their claim for apostasy we have the New Testament books by 100 AD they aren't compiled together as a Bible but I mean they're circulating around amongst the churches and so if you're going to make the apostasy happen after the death of the Apostles you don't have time for a corruption of the text to happen before then and when we have today copies of the New Testament that date back into like 150 AD or something you know so so when's his time period you only got like 50 60 years here to make this big revision of everything and there's no reason to assume it we have part of the book of John John chapter 17 or 18 and manuscript from 130 80 and it reads the same as today we have part we have John 1:1 in a manuscript at 180 80 and it reads the same as it does today there's no reason to assume that the Scriptures got changed there was no one Church in control no one man in control of all the manuscripts that were being passed around to the churches around the Mediterranean and as they find the different man scripts that have been preserved around the Mediterranean lo and behold they all got the same gospel in them it's the same thing there's nothing shows up to surprise us that suddenly we encounter something that sounds like Mormonism you don't get this ironic Melchizedek Priesthood temple marriage stuff in anything and so if I'm free to just say what was in their written record that got lost we could make up anything we wanted I mean I could just say well you know of course the part that got thrown away was the prophecy that in the last days or be a prophet named Joseph Smith and to watch out for him then no one knew who that was so they just discarded that part I mean if you're gonna say parts were discarded you can't just invent what got thrown away there has to be some reason to assume that anything was changed and there just simply is nothing there the oldest manuscripts that church fathers all are quoting the same scriptures we have today liberal moments are really excited about potential we stood stomach looks the historical case ok Mormon priesthood for women well a a few years ago D Michael Quinn historian wrote an article speculating that when women were participating in the temple rituals in Nauvoo that they were in fact are acting as priestesses and with priesthood and so the feminists all looked to the Nauvoo temple experience to say that joseph was giving priesthood to women because the women did the washing and anointing of other women which is a priesthood function which makes a problem for the Mormons today on their priesthood just being appreciated of men how did the women get to do priesthood ordinations of the women in the washing and joining ceremonies so because of that some like Quinn have speculated that joseph was giving priesthood to women but it never got developed if the Mormons wanted to try to develop a priesthood for women I suppose they could enlarge on the role of the temple ritual or bring back the woman's ability to ordain and bless the sick but I don't think they're ever going to make a move to make them erotic Melchizedek Priesthood holders I think that's a move too far Mormonism is patriarchy their whole eternal exaltation is based on patriarchy the Father Son Holy Ghost are the three gods in charge of our world the mother God doesn't hardly get any press and although the feminists might like the idea of God having a wife I don't think they'd want the wife that Mormonism presents because her role seems to be all that of having children for her husband to have more worlds she so well you could make having babies part of a priesthood role or something but it still means 20 billion spirit babies so I think they've got a real problem on the one hand of wanting to elevate the woman's position but it doesn't really fit into their patriarchy so I don't see an easy transition on that they can invent some kind of priesthood for them it may be in relation to the temple ritual they can throw a few bones out to them by letting the women be a part of the blessing circle of naming a baby they can be a part of a priesthood circle to pray for the sick or something anointing or something that way but I don't see them ever putting them into the Iranian or Kazakh priesthood okay cut that cut out he's just the keys just mean authority that it doesn't make it a priesthood office God authorizes people to speak in his name he authorized the Apostles to go out and preach in his name but there were it's not part of a system of hierarchical priesthood they've imposed that onto it and they make keys become some special thing it just means giving someone power or authority God's approval

Channel: Aaron Shafovaloff

Views: 13,840

Rating: 4.7739129 out of 5

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Id: -tJ1zIC7HDA

Length: 65min 56sec (3956 seconds)

Published: Sat Mar 24 2018