What's Wrong With The Engineer?

[Music] hi today I just wanted to talk about what I think a lot of people might not want to hear and that is what is currently too good about the engineer and what I think should be done to change that along with that I also like to talk about what is currently too weak about the engineers so it's not going to be as much as a slam on my own favorite class as much as it's going to be more of a harsh but truthful look at what the engineer needs to be a fairly balanced class for the current state of tf2 in my opinion now there are two main things that I want to talk about regarding the ng and that is the engineers role in tf2 and the engineers weapons first his role which is what the engineer as a class brings to the table as far as its main abilities and how it can contribute to the average team the first thing I want to make clear but the engineer the class is this the engineer will never be and should never be the best class in tf2 the way the class is designed is not to be a constant force to be reckoned with it's supposed to be a support class with a focus on area denial and team sustainability I compare the engineers tier placement situation with that of the spy very similarly if the spy were to be the most powerful class in the game tf2 would not be very fun the spike can't be the best class because of the way the class is designed he's meant to be a silent sneaky killer who takes advantage of windows of opportunity to get important kills that will end up changing the tide of the game the engineer is supposed to help his team achieve victory using his various buildings mainly by helping shut down key areas from any access and essentially create an obstacle for the enemy to attempt to penetrate if the engineer was too powerful the game would be slowed down to a halt and the entire game would become choke point push simulator 2017 so basically the engineer needs to be weaker than the average class by default and then becomes stronger the longer he's able to freely set up his buildings and then even when he's finally at his most effective then he should be able to be countered with effective coordination which for the most part the TF team has this down but there are a few cracks in this which I will get into right now first thing being the main issue I see with the engineer he's too easy to be effective with when stacking multiple engineers on defense you've seen it countless times your team gets pushed back to the bad water last and everyone on red team does the thing that is most guaranteed to win them around they respawn with six engineers and build a ton of level three centuries all spread out in a formation that it's almost impossible to destroy in just one push as it stands stacking engineers in defensive situations is simply too strong and something needs to be done about it the easy solution would be to impose class limits on casual service but we all know that that wouldn't go over very well with anyone so I suggest valve make it so engineers cannot interact with each other's buildings this includes not being able to heal upgrade remove sappers from or take metal from other engineers buildings yes I can't believe I'm doing this either I am suggesting the removal of cooperative engineering entirely so that it's much harder for multiple engineers to quickly set up and sustain a giant beehive of sentries and dispensers that is simply just too large to take down but I believe it needs to be done the greater enjoyment of the game the second thing about the engineer as a class is that he's too centered around his sentry gun and a defensive role in general I personally think that when it comes to defensive capabilities every classroom t of two should be very light in that department and right now the engineer is one of the most effective defenders in the game when you have classes that are too good at defending the game slows down to a crawl and it becomes less and less exciting for everyone involved and while I do think there should be classes that are better at defending just like how there should be classes that are better at attacking I don't think one type of style should be more powerful than the other the attacking classes and the defending classes should be constantly in a back-and-forth with each other not a recurring situation where the attacking classes have to throw everything they have at a single defending class in order to effectively take him down and that's what I think is currently a little too strong about the engineer his defending capabilities I would much rather the TF team slowly nerf the defensive tools that the engineer currently have his disposal and in return of his supportive capabilities this means making things like sentry guns more easily countered and making his dispenser more of a focus as well as allow the engineer more options for his team sustainability my ideal buffs to the support energy would be to make him into a more viable healer almost on par with the medic right now the medic is hands down the most powerful quad in the game if your team doesn't have a medic and the other team does you are very likely to lose no other class have the ability to heal which seems a little unfair I'm of the opinion that the more team class compositions that are effective the more interesting and varied the meta game will become so having a class in the game that is literally a must pick if you want to win it kind of ruins that variation a little bit I would suggest making the engineer have something that allows him to heal on demand just like a medic such as a dispenser backpack like the one that I suggested in a weapon ideas video back I don't know like a year ago I also completely support the idea that Danny has suggested for a year now which is a replacement for the teleporter that is essentially a speed pad which allows players to walk over and gain a temporary speed boost this would be more effective from maps where the spawn point changes so often that setting up a teleporter entrance and exit is just not worth the hassle in general making the engineer into a more effective and mobile combat class when he needs to be it's a step in the right direction which is why I think the gunslinger is one of the better unlocks the engineer just because it allows him to focus more on supporting rather than defending in my eyes I think the engineer should be nearly on par with the medic as far as healing goes so that you have the option of running one of the two available healers or even both of them for extra sustainability I think that overall the medic should be dethroned of his role of the one and only healer and I believe that engineer could be in an ideal spot to fill that position so moving on from the changes that should be made to the engineer as a class we can talk a bit about the engineers weapons for the most part the engineer has a lot of reasonably balanced unlocks pretty much all of his melee weapons are useful and not horribly over or underpowered in any way in my opinion but then we get into a secondary I have a bit of an issue with one weapon you might know exactly what that is the Wrangler oh did you think I was going to say as a short circuit because I actually think the short circuit is pretty much fine and it's designed you know in a world where spamming pills stickies and Rockets is a cheap and easy way to spread damage engineer having a small timing based answer to that doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me you know the pyro can do the exact same thing except actually do massive amounts of damages as result I don't really understand why given the engineer the ability to prevent a few rockets from hitting them should be that much of a problem and the short circuit is also a great spy checker for when you want to track down an invisible Frenchman and really useful for finishing off a jumpy Scout in a 1v1 fight the only issue that I have with the short circuit is how freely you're able to use it which comes from the fact that it's dependent on your metal supply I would much rather the short circuit either had its own ammo and you had to reload it after using it so many times or if it had its own cooldown bar so that's spamming it over and over while sitting on an infinite metal source like a dispenser or a payload cart is discouraged and instead force engineers to use their timing to prevent damage or put out a bit of AoE back to the Wrangler this thing is hands-down the biggest culprit when it comes to the overpowered defensive capabilities of the engineer and I'm not talking about the fact that it can allow you to take manual control of your sentry gun I'm talking about the resistance shield when you so much as just take out the Wrangler it changes the effective health of a level 3 sentry gun from 216 health to just under 650 health this basically makes the Wrangler a brain-dead easy way to sponge damage and waste time when it pushes made against your sentry and especially in a low team size environment where incoming damage is going to be lessened by a significant amount by default compared to full 12 to 12 servers the Wrangler is the ultimate defensive tool for the engineer now you already know that I do not want the engineer to be a powerhouse of defending so right away my main suggested change would be to completely remove the shield from the Wrangler now of course this would be a significant nerf to not only the engineers defensive ability but also to the Wrangler as a weapon because while the ability to manually take control of your sentry gun is a very powerful tool I have a feeling that straight up removing the best thing about the Wrangler would cause a lot of complaints so I suggest counterbalancing the removal of the Wranglers most overpowered feature with moving the damage resistance from the Sentry to the engineer himself I don't know exactly how much would be fair but in my eyes if the engineer is able to freely use the Wrangler to pressure a sniper who is attempting to shoot his gun out of the auto aims range and not have to worry about getting quick scoped for 150 damage I think that that would be enough and even if that seems like too much my final suggestion would be to make it so that the Wrangler allows the engineer to take very little or no self-damage from his own sentrygun this would make the very fun and flashy yet pretty much useless strategy of sentry jumping less risky more viable and give the engineer a little bit of that mobility that he very much needs in order to be more effective in competitive settings and then we're moving on to the engineers primary weapons I think that the stats for the shotgun the Widowmaker the frontier justice and even the panic attack are just fine and dandy as far as balance and utility goes but the two ng primary they still have issue with are the pomp some 6000 and the rescue Ranger the pomp s'en is just not a very good weapon on one end it has two borderline unfair stats and that it drains uber from medics and drains cloak from spies these stats are not fun to play against in their own right because it removes the abilities of another class which I don't think should be featured as a statistic in tf2 but coupled with the extremely slow and unreliable projectile the lower clip size and the buggy hitbox associated with it the pomp s'en is just a mess and it needs to be redesigned I suggest making it so the pumps and doesn't do any more of that uber or cloak draining crap and instead put more focus on it being a medium long range damage dealer with more straightforward situational uses I think the projectile should travel much faster and do more reasonable damage at long range as well as return an old mechanic that used to be on the pomp s'en the ability to penetrate players basically I think the palm s'en should be nothing more than a shotgun version of the righteous bison or at least the way the Bison used to work and then this brings me to the very last weapon on my ideal chopping block the rescue Ranger now you may already be aware that the TF team very recently posted a blog detailing a few of the weapon changes that they are proposing for the upcoming jungle pyro campaign 3 Boogaloo update and the only engineer specific weapon on that list was the rescue Ranger and while these changes are in no way final in fact the only reason that they're showing them to us before the update drops is so that we can discuss what we do and do not like about what they think should be changed about these weapons I noticed that a lot of Engineer players seem to be upset that the rescue Ranger is getting a bit of a nerf but let me reassure you if this is the actual change that the TF team decides to go through with then you rescue Ranger enthusiasts out there or get not pretty damn easy because edit stands right now the rescue Ranger is definitely one of the most useful defensive weapons in the engineers arsenal and while it's been repeatedly directly or indirectly nerfed in every major balanced update since gunmetal I still think the rescue Ranger could be taken down a peg now the update that the t of team is proposing is pretty simple when you heal a building with the rescue Ranger you will spend metal at about a four to one ratio based on the healing done so if you heal the max heal per bolt you'll spend fifteen metal at first this seems like a pretty detrimental change but to be honest fifty metal per sixty health is very manageable it's still better than the ratio when using a wrench which is three to one and still being able to heal at a distance is completely worth it in the end I'm surprised that they didn't hit this thing harder because being able to heal a building not only from any distance but without spending any metal at all is only one of the main things that make the rescue Ranger practically and must use when playing around your sentry gun a few of the major complaints I've been hearing about the proposed rescue Ranger nerf is that it will encourage engineers to hog their dispensers more because they will need them more often which is a fair point but decent engineers will be able to still balance putting the dispenser in a place where both their team and they are able to access it easily however I do predict that lower skilled engineers will be unable to manage metal as effectively so I can see it being an issue in the early stages of an ng players skill progression that being said I like that the apparent goal of the proposed rescue Ranger nurse seems to be to give it a higher skill ceiling which I approve of I personally just don't think it will be enough to prevent it from being the quintessential weapon to use when playing on defense in fact if I was being honest I'd go so far to say that this nerf doesn't fix what's so good about the rescue Ranger I think that the ability to heal so effectively without taking Splash Damage or putting yourself in as much danger is what breaks this weapon so I would suggest lowering the healing per bolt from sixty health to fifty health in addition to spending a bit of metal based on the amount healed a few people have suggested healing fall-off which would make it so the further away from the building you are the less healing the bolt does but I think that that would be counterintuitive and only make it so that you have to be close to your building to get the full value which at that point you might as well just your wrench anyway well congratulations you made it through the horrible nightmare that was your very own uncle roasting the engineer and proposing that he'd be changed and nerfed and made out to be less of a turtle and more of a helpful little Texan if you disagree with any of the things I said in this video feel free to comment about it below I know for a fact that I'm not a hundred percent right about everything I believe I'm only one guy and as much as I am entitled to my own opinion you're also entitled to yours so feel free to shout it out but more important than that I highly suggest that you take a gander at the proposed balanced changes on the tf2 blog the link will be in the description and after you've mulled over them a bit go ahead and send the tea of team your thoughts on what they've come up with the entire purpose of this blog is to actually communicate with us and give us the opportunity to give them feedback on weapon changes before they're already in the game so make sure you take advantage of the exact thing that we've been asking for for years make sure your opinion is heard you have the power to affect the game now anyway thanks so much for watching and I will talk to you nieces and nephews next time bye bye [Music] you know [Music]

Channel: Uncle Dane

Views: 1,095,817

Rating: 4.5543499 out of 5

Keywords: team fortress 2, tf2, engineer, gameplay, guide, tutorial, tips, first person shooter, uncle dane, professional, pro, free to play, free, steam, sale, deal, items, crafting

Id: KDICaSDMjXY

Length: 14min 25sec (865 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 25 2017

Reddit Comments

[u/milkkore]

Thank you so, so much for bringing up the Pomson.

It's a pretty strong contestant for weakest weapon in the game right now. Mostly due to the completely bugged hitbox but the whole design is just terrible on top of that.

It used to be a very viable and exclusive option for mid and long range. Take away the uber and cloak drain if you must, I don't care, I just want a primary again that doesn't force me to get up close as a class with the lowest health in the game.

[u/Lerola]

Since the video is a bit long and comprehensive, I'll just list some of the things that stood out for me in bullet points:

• I strongly disagree about his suggestions on how to avoid a sentry hive. Teamwork should always be rewarded, and even though hiving is a very basic type of teamwork, it still is. Saying that this kind of teamwork is OP is like saying that a coordinated Uber push or everyone going heavy is OP. Strong teamwork from one team will require strong teamwork from the other to break, and I think the problem is more on how hard it is to attack compared with how easy it is to defend.

• Uncle Dane doesn't mind removing allied healing because he usually goes solo engi and almost plays like a flank scout, but lower skill engineers need a "teacher" to survive spies and rockets. Instead, I suggest that each additional sentry doing damage for a user gets reduced For example, if 4 sentries damage 1 heavy, the first one will do full damage, the second one 75%, the third one 50%, etc.

• Uncle Dane is missing the most important thing that makes medics so essential, which is uber . Many classes have ways to self-heal (Sandvich, Dispenser, Black Box), but Uber is what allows to turn the tides of battle. Another thing which forbids engi of being as good of a healer as medic is that he has a strong damage output. If Dane wants to make him a tier 1 healer, he will have to make engi defenseless without a sentry or "pocket", which many won't like. A way to accomplish this could involve a wrench replacement that removes his sentry completely, and instead allows either for a "Texas-Sized Dispenser" or for a AoE buff that supports the team.

• The Pomson does need a proper reworking. Personally, I would give it a slowdown effect on hit, making it a good area denial weapon for the engi and something that's useless as a DPS wep.

• Finally, the Wrangler. A good suggestion I heard here had to do with splitting the wrangler's shield and self-control into two weapons: One of them would allow you to self control (and maybe give engi the damage resistance Dane Proposed), while the other one would only give the shield (maybe reduced and as a passive weapon?).

Pretty Good video overall, we need more of thse analysis videos that actually give suggestions and less ranting videos that only talk about what's broken.

[u/DuckSwagington]

Right, Time to Copy+Paste what I've already wrote in a separate post...

Ok, before I say anything, I do not have anything against Uncle Dane at all. I just disagree with the a few of the points he has stated. I thought I might as well get that out of the way ASAP as some people can't tell the difference between criticism and hate on the Internet.

Right. The Video is quite an interesting one. It outlines most of the major balancing factors that Engie has, and Dane lays out some really good examples on why Engineer has problems. I agree with the idea that Engineer shouldn't be the Be All, End All class in the game as it would ruin the gameplay. He needs to be less powerful than the power classes to get the gameplay moving. However, the Suggestions are pretty bad, and will seriously damage the Engineer In my opinion.

Firstly, The Co-operative Engineering suggestion. This is an Awful idea. Reducing the healing output of a Dispenser on Engineers would stop the extremely rare circumstance of 6 Engies on last holding all of the good sentry spots and denying the Offensive team to win. Sure it happens, but that situation requires all of the Engies to hold all of the Good Sentry spot and keeping the buildings alive constantly. The chances of people that are competent enough to do this on the same server let alone on the same team, are extremely rare, and such an extreme change would be crippling for a 2 Engie defense as one can't benefit off of the other, making the defense really weak. It's an extreme change for a niche situation that, may I add, never happens in Higher levels of play.

Secondly, Dethroning the Medic as a primary heal source suggestion. I've already written a response to this one in advance, so here you go: The idea of allowing the Engineer to heal as well as a Medic (Or just below) would make defensive situations even more painful than they are now as the defending team has a strong healing output from a class that has the best defensive tools. The Engineer will not die as much as he would and the defending team will not die as often as well. Also, if you make another class more adept at healing, then the Medic will become useless. Why would I want to play a squishy class that can barely defend himself when every other class can heal themselves just as effectively? Also, people surviving more often slows down the game as well, so making the Medic the primary healing source and keeping him that way is paramount in keeping games fast as he cannot heal everyone at once, whilst the Engineer can. (That's from a comment I wrote when watching the Video, and I just Copy+Pasted it over). The speed pad Idea I like though, makes Engies goal of moving the team up on 5CP games easier.

Now for the Weapons section. Before I get into the meat of this bit, I want to point something out. At 6:24 Danes states that "The Pyro can do the exact same thing, but deal massive amounts of Damage" Except that the Difference between Airblast and the Short Circuit is that A) Pyro is fundamentally broken, and needs all the help he can get. B) Pyro can still receive self damage with Airblast and the Engie cannot with the Short Circuit and C) The Short Circuit is a Hell of a lot more spammable (as well as not requiring that much aim) than Airblast, making the Projectile Destruction easier than Airblast, albeit Airblast having more utility use than the Short Circuit. The Suggestions for a Fix for the Short Circuit are actually feasible fixes and I like them.

Now with the Wrangler. In 6s, it's utter broken and in HL (as well as Casual) its borderline OP. There is no denying that fact, no matter how you look at it. The shield resists way too much damage as well as giving the sentry near infinite range. Now I know that some people will say that "The Wrangler deserves that nerf!" However, the Idea of completely removing the Wrangler shield is a horrible Idea. Trying to counter balance the lack of a shield with the a +66% damage resistance on the Engineer that is Wrangling the Sentry doesn't make up for the fact you're sentry is more vulnerable in this state as it's auto-fire function is completely removed, and therefor removing the Self Defense abilities of the Sentry, as the Targeting is down to how good the Engineer is at aiming the Wrangler, although increasing the Skill cap isn't a bad thing. People would see a Wrangled sentry and see it as a free Sentry kill as the Engineer is most likely incompetent in Casual play. If the Sentry goes down you're left with the Wrangler in your hand doing absolutely fuck all and you'll get killed near instantly as the damage resistance has disappeared. In Higher levels of play, this isn't a problem as Engies know how to aim with the Wrangler, put this still leaves the Sentry vulnerable to attacks from multiple directions, whereas with the Auto-Aim, it can deal with Multiple enemies efficiently, unlike the Engie it belongs to. A change is needed to the Wrangler, and fast. But this is too extreme, and there is no doubt that the +66% damage resistance on the Engie cannot be exploited one way or the other. Just wait 2 weeks on Delfy's channel and you'll see someone exploiting it. I've thought of an exploit right now during the Edit: You can build a mini sentry out of the way where it cannot be reached, got battle Engie, and when the situation flips against you, you can go straight to the Wrangler and get a 66% damage resistance against anything that is coming towards you, and tank an obscene amount of damage, and there's nothing the Enemy team can do to stop that apart from destroying the Mini, which if the Engineer is smart, is on the last point or near spawn, out of harms way. There is a possibility it could if added that feature is added. You've also got to take in mind that taking down a Wrangled sentry (Or a Sentry is general) involves killing the Engineer to make sure it doesn't repair. Transferring the Damage Resistance to the Engineer to the sentry will just move the problem onto the Engineer from the Sentry unless there is a horrible downside added to the Engie whilst Wrangling sentries. Speaking of repairs, the repair penalty would also be removed as well as it only applies when the Shield is active. Therefor, this means that Wrangled Sentries could heal at 100% again. This could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. It could be a major balancing factor if this was to happen. I don't know how to nerf the Wrangler, but any of my thoughts and/or suggestions are defiantly not as extreme as Dane's.

And that's it. The majority of the rest of the Video I agree upon. The things I stated above are just my thoughts on Dane's suggestions in his latest video.

[u/[deleted]]

This is probably the first Uncle Dane video I can say I disliked.

Uncle Dane supports removing cooperative Engineering, which is a core reason to even have more than one Engineer, ever. I know Uncle Dane typically plays the flank Engie but that's not the only way to play Engie and not the way the game was designed around.

There are two ways to nerf Engie nests without removing cooperative Engineering entirely. Either have a -50% repair rate on other Engineers' buildings or add new anti-Engie weapons to Demo and Spy, like a stickybomb that does extra damage to buildings v. players, or a sapper that can be placed unnoticed and then activated later like Mr. Paladin's idea.

The Engineer should not be changed fundamentally to be more like the Medic, and if Uncle Dane wants to change Engie to heal more then his primary would be replaced by something as weak as the Syringe Gun, or his sentry would be massively nerfed.

However, I do agree with his proposed weapon changes, adding that a new shield secondary should be added for him like the Medic's shield in MvM, which would cement his support role in a better way than just flat increasing the Dispenser's heal rate.

How about adding Dispenser types? There's so many ways to change the Engie without infringing on the Medic, Mr. Cook. Dane's backpack Dispenser idea is even viable as a way to diversify him. Engineer is probably the class in TF2 with the most need for new weapons right now. After the Heavy Update we need an Engie v. Spy like the Heavy v. Pyro of last year, because they're the two classes that need changes the most after Pyro and Heavy get attention.

[u/Dan_Dead_Or_Alive]

IMO give Spy / Demo / someone a weapon that deals with multiple sentries stacked more effectively. Removing co-op building as engie takes the Team out of Team Fortress 2.

[u/codroipoman]

The fuck you smoking dane? REMOVE COOPERATIVE ENGINEERING!? Jesus christ on a bike fucked hard sideways with a red hot rake.

Make it WEAKER, if you still have to commit this useless crime against one of the very few form of cooperation left in this mess of a game (something like you can still get metal from other dispensers and heal/upgrade buildings, but at a reduced rate, for example 50% or even 40%) but do not even think about removing it. What the fuck.

And what about reducing the defensive/offensive capabilities to just buff the healing? Was it some strong genetically modified weed? Bah...

Edit (even more rant-ish): I'm getting sincerely tired of you comp guys asking for the game to be remade basing it on your MOD OF IT, because comp was born as a sub-sect of the proper game. You want every class to be equally viable but to mantain their uniqueness, don't you see the fucking cognitive dissonance at work here!? All classes must be equally viable in defense/offense/healing/support/planetaryinvasion/mining/building/demolishing/buttfucking. BUT at the same fucking time they must also remain unique. And I'm the motherfucking Queen Elizabeth. Making it be like that for a restricted number of classes would be already difficult enough, having this to be doable for 9 different characters it's almost impossible and not wort the hassle. Stop asking for the game to be remade to be a "muh skillz *wanks furiously* e-peen simulator". TF2 is a meme generator hat simulator, ask for a well done comp mode, but remain the hell away from pubs! You can play a gamemode where AT MOST you face 9vs9 (and usually you go for 6vs6), I (and I hope I'm not the only one) love the mayhem that is 12vs12. Stop mingling with "us"\ rant over.

[u/Herpsties]

So on the topic of Engineer stacking...does no one play demoman anymore? If the enemy team is mostly Engineers then they don't have battle classes to help cover them and you can just edge most of them and uber on the ones you can't. I guess that's asking too much from a pub perspective? I just never had a problem with Engineer stacking personally, if I ever thought it was egregious I'd just switch to demo and take them out.

[u/SubZeroDestruction]

My only real gripe is that Dane is more of a solo Engineer so the teamwork aspect of a nest (even if those players don't know much honestly) is something that shouldn't be removed or discouraged.
However I could slightly agree with a slightly lesser heal/repair amount on buildings that you don't own that way a nest doesn't become "impossible" to break since your own team has no coordination to break it down. (Talking about pubs in that stance) In comp there are no nests possible; hence why it wouldn't be an issue.

[u/DaklozeDuif]

Now, being unable to interact with other engies' buildings seems not-so-great because... well, other people mentioned that already. TEAM Fortress 2 and all that.

However! There is one part about it that I do like, and that is the "Cannot take metal from friendly dispensers part".

Taking metal from another engy's dispenser does not involve much teamwork. A friendly engy can plop down a dispenser and sit in spawn for the rest of the match, and you can still get the benefit from it. Heck, you can get the benefit from it whetever the original builer wants it or not.

Perhaps even more important, "friendly" engies would not be able to nab metal from your dispenser that you might need yourself. And if you do want to share your dispenser metal with your team, just get it out and hammer away at their buildings yourself.

As for the Pomson, I want it to be able to pierce buildings too. That's be interesting. Maybe only enemy buildings though.