>>> THE SELF PROCLAIMED COWBOY
STATES. WYOMING'S IDENTITY, WHAT'S
REAL AND WHAT'S NOT. NEXT ON THE
CHRONICLE. >> WELCOME.
MUSIC �
>> > >> THAT WAS A BIT OF THE FAMOUS
BLUE GRASS JAZZ THAT GOES ON EVERY
THURSDAY. WE ARE IN THE SALOON.
THEY SAY EVEN THE BULLS HERE ARE
ORIGINAL. 20 YEARS AGO, THIS PLACE SEEMED
DESTINED FOR A WRECKING BALL. IT'S A
LOT OF MONEY TO BRING BACK THIS HISTORY PIECE OF HISTORY.
IT'S A PERFECT PLACE TO TALK ABOUT HOW
WYOMING'S IDENTITY HAS BEEN SHAPED
THROUGH THE YEARS. JOINING ME ARE TWO
CULTURAL OBSERVERS. AUTHOR OF SEVERAL
BOOKS INCLUDING STEVEO AND ALSO SAMUEL
WESTERN, SOLD DOWN THE RIVER AND A
FREQUENT CONTRIBUTOR. WELCOME TO BOTH
OF YOU. WELL, IS THERE SOME KIND OF
CORE CULTURAL IDENTITY TO WYOMING.
A PICTURE THAT SPRINGS TO MIND
WHEN SOMEONE ASKS WHAT IS THE WYOMING
IDENTITY? >> I WOULD SAY THE COWBOY DOES
DISTINGUISH US, THE RANCHING CULTURE
AND PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF OUR
OPEN SPACES. WHEN I WAS DRIVING UP
HERE YOU SEE THE GREEN GRASS AND YOU
SEE COWS, YOU SEE SHEEP OUT THERE ON
THE PRAIRIE AND THOSE OPEN SPACES I
THINK ARE WHAT REALLY IS OUR SIGNATURE
OF WYOMING. IT'S JUST OUR SPACE SO
RANCHING SUPPORTS THAT AND THAT'S WHY
WE HAVE SO MUCH OF THIS LAND THAT WE
ALL LOVE SO MUCH AND WE FIGHT OVER IT
SOMETIMES. I THINK SOME OF THE ISSUES
THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN THIS
STATE. >> WHEN PEOPLE ASK YOU, SUM THAT
UP FOR ME IN A SENTENCE, WOULD YOU?
>> WYOMING? I WOULD SAY A LOT OF
EMPTY SPACE AND WE HAVE 5.4 PEOPLE PER
SQUARE FOOT MILES IN WYOMING. WE GET
USED TO HAVING OUR OWN LITTLE SPACE
HERE AND I THINK THAT'S DEFINITELY
PART OF THE WYOMING IDENTITY. >> I HAD A VISITOR COMMENT TO ME
THAT IT REMINDS HIM OF THE DAYS.
WE WANTED TO GET SOME QUICK IMPRESSIONS ON
HOW EVERYBODY FEELS ABOUT WYOMING
AND HERE IS SOME OF WHAT WE'VE GOT.
>> I THINK YOU ARE FREE TO DO SO MANY
THINGS. THERE IS SO MUCH SPACE
ESPECIALLY IF YOU LIKE THE EARTH.
LIKE TREES OR CAMPING OR JUST FRESH
AIR. >> IF YOU CAN SEE THOSE FLAGS
AND ALL THIS BLOWING SNOW, THE WIND IS
HORRIBLE. STAY AWAY.
[ LAUGHTER ] >> SOME PEOPLE SAY IT PUTS THEM
TO SLEEP AT NIGHT.
I ENJOY IT. >> IF I WOULDN'T HAVE GONE TO
COLORADO, I WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN ANY
SCHOLARSHIPS. >> THIS GUY LOVES WYOMING.
IF YOU ASK HIM, HE THINKS THIS IS A
WONDERFUL PLACE.
>> GREAT PLACE TO RAISE A GRANDDAUGHTER.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PROBLEMS OTHER CITIES
HAVE. >> I WAS JUST THERE AND ALL OF A
SUDDEN THERE IS A DEER BY MY HOUSE.
>> IT'S WIDE OPEN AND YOU CAN PROBABLY
LOOK FARTHER AND SEE LESS THAN ANY
PLACE ELSE. >> THE NATURE OF THE PEOPLE, THE
HONESTY, THE NATURE OF THE CHARACTER.
>> YOU CAN GO TO THE EAST COAST AND
SOMEONE SEE'S THAT BUCKING POST. YOU
CAN HAVE LOTS OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
WYOMING. >> OKAY YOU TAKE WYOMING BUT YOU
PICK IT UP.
YOU MOVE IT SOMEPLACE, LIKE FLORIDA.
FLORIDA IS JUST HANGING OFF THERE.
OUR TIME IS COMING. WYOMING
NIGHTS, UNITE. WYOMINGERS?
>> OKAY. SOME VOICES FROM AROUND
PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE. WHAT'S YOUR
SENSE OF THE RANGE OF FEELINGS THAT
PEOPLE HAVE OF THIS PLACE? >> I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED
HERE ALL THEIR LIVES LIKE I HAVE.
OUR ROOTS ARE DEEP AND YOU ARE NOT GOING
PRY THAT OUT OF US.
I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME HERE AND MADE A
LIVING, LIKE SAM.
THEY FELT THAT IN A WAY THAT I FEEL IT.
IF YOU LET IT GRAB YOU JUST A BIT, YOU WILL SAY, YOU ARE GONE.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO STAY.
YOU ARE GOING TO STAY AND BE TOTALLY IMMERSED
IN THAT STATE OR YOU ARE GONE.
YOU CAN'T DEAL WITH ISOLATION.
>> YOU COME FROM THE EAST AS THEY SAY
ORIGINALLY IN VERMONT. HOW DID WYOMING
GET IT'S HOOKS IN YOU? >> IT GOT IT'S HOOKS IN ME
BECAUSE THE LONGER I LIVED HERE, THE LONGER
THE GREAT JOY AND MANY OF THE
VIRTUES THAT PEOPLE COME HERE FOR.
I ALSO SPENTD TIME IN ALASKA AND WASHINGTON
AND OREGON AND TO MOVE HERE WAS A
SHOCK. IT REALLY GROWS ON YOU.
>> YOU ARE CERTAINLY ONE OF THE DISTINGUISHING CHARACTERISTICS
THAT WE CAN PROBABLY AGREE IS THE
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF LEAVE ME ALONE.
HERE IS A JOKE THAT THE WYOMING
PRESIDENT ONCE TOLD ON THE SENATE FLOOR WHO HAS
BEEN QUOTED BEFORE, "WHY DON'T
WYOMING DRIVERS USE THEIR SIGNALS?"
BECAUSE IT'S NOBODY'S BUSINESS WHERE YOU
ARE GOING.
>> I DO THINK PEOPLE WANT TO BE LEFT
ALONE AND I THINK THEY ARE INDEPENDENT.
DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN DO WITH MY LAND, WITH MY FAMILY,
WITH ANYTHING.
I THINK YOU SEE THAT TODAY AND WHAT THE WAY THE STATE HAS
DEALT WITH THE HEALTH CARE, THE OBAMA
CARE ISSUES.
IT'S KIND OF LIKE, WELL, WE'LL JUST TAKE THAT SEAT AND SEE HOW
THINGS SHAKE OUT.
>> DON'T TELL US ABOUT SAVING MONEY.
>> OR TELL US THAT WE ARE GOING TO DO
SOMETHING. WE'LL FIGURE OUT OUR BEST
WAY FOR US. WHEN YOU LOOK AT WYOMING'S
BUDGET, MAYBE WE HAVE DONE A PRETTY
GOOD JOB ON THAT BECAUSE WE ARE NOT IN
THE HOLE LIKE A LOT OF OTHER PLACES.
>> YOU GIVE THE MESSAGE, DON'T MESS
WITH OUR MYTH. YOU START IN WYOMING
ABOUT SOMEONE WHO DID SOMETHING TO
UPSET HIS FELLOW CITIZENS. WHAT DID HE
DO? >> HE CHALLENGED A BID ON A
NEIGHBORS PROPERTY.
THAT IS CONSIDERED -- TO DO THAT.
THERE WAS A SECTION I THINK THAT HE WANTED THAT HE COULD USE AND
HE DIDN'T SEE ANY REASON AND HE IS
WILLING TO PAY MORE MONEY FOR IT.
>> WE ARE TALKING GRAZING RIGHTS.
A PREFERENTIAL BID IS AS FOLLOWS:
THEY ARE A TEN YEAR LEASE.
ORDINARILY THAT LEASE IS RENEWED AND WHAT
HAPPENS IS, THAT LEASE CAN BE CHALLENGED,
BUT THE CURRENT LEASER ALWAYS GETS THE
LAST SAY.
>> IT'S NOT A HIGH BIDDER? >> NO.
THAT'S HOW OUR PREFERENTIAL BID WORKS.
>> IT SEEMS LIKE WHO ACTUALLY BIDS THE
HIGHEST, YOU MIGHT GET MORE REVENUE
FROM THE GOVERNMENT THAT WAY. >> RIGHT.
>> THAT WAS NOT THE POINT, RIGHT?
>> RIGHT. IT WAS A PROTECTIVE MEASURE.
IT WAS ALL OVER THE WEST. WE ARE THE
LAST TO HAVE PREFERENTIAL BIDS. THEY
HAVE GONE TO COMPETITIVE BIDDING OVER
THE STATES. >> IT'S NOT LIKE THE RUGGED
INDIVIDUAL. >> BUT POINT OF THE RANCHER,
MANY OF THOSE SCHOOL SECTIONS ARE WITHIN
THEIR PRIVATE LANDS AND IT'S THEIR
SECTION THERE AND THEY OWN EVERYTHING
AROUND IT.
AS AN OWNER, YOU WANT THAT. AS
THERE IS ACCESS ISSUE, IF SOMEONE
NEEDS TO GET TO THAT LAND, THEY HAVE
TO CROSS YOUR PROPERTY OR WHATEVER YOU
MIGHT HAVE ON THAT LAND, THEN YOU HAVE
TO WORRY ABOUT BEING A FENCE OUT STATE.
IF YOU HAVE THAT LEASE, IF YOU DON'T WANT MY -- ON THE STATE
LEASE, THEN YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
>> THAT WAS BEFORE WE STARTED. COWS
HAVE A RIGHT TO RANGE ANYWHERE. IF YOU
DON'T WANT THEM THERE YOU HAVE TO
BUILD A FENCE. >> WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
WYOMING, NOTHING IS MORE VISIBLE THAN THE
BRONCO. YOU WROTE A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT
THE NAME OF STEAM BOAT, THE BUCKING --
YOU CALL IT PURE LEGEND. >> THE WHOLE STORY OF THE
BUCKING HORSE IS MYTHOLOGICAL IN THE
SENSE THAT WHO IS THE COWBOY ON THE
LICENSE. THE SYMBOL THAT WE SEE ON THE
LICENSE PLATE THAT HAPPENED.
IT STATED WITH THE COWBOY LOGO WHICH WAS STEAM
BOAT THAT WAS TAKEN IN 1973 AND THEN
THERE IS THE SHERIDAN THE NATIONAL
GUARD HAD THE SYMBOL OF THE BUCKING HORSE
AND THAT WAS THE HORSE NAMED BREAD
WING. THAT SYMBOL GOES WAY BACK.
SOME OF IT IS TRUE AND SOME IS LEGEND.
YOU CAN ARGUE ALL DAY LONG.
>> YOU HAD WRITTEN THE RED WING WAS
THE INSPIRATION FOR IT. >> THE FIRST PHOTO IS THIS PHOTO
OF RED WING SERVING IN FRANCE AND
THERE IS THE PHOTO OF THE DRUM OF THE
BUCKING DRUM. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S
THE LAST AUTHORITY. >> THAT'S THE FIRST USE OF THE
BUCKING HORSE AS A SYMBOL.
>> WHAT I FIND REMARKABLE HERE TOO IS
THAT ALTHOUGH WE DON'T REALLY KNOW SO
MUCH ABOUT STEAM BOAT THESE DAYS, BUT
IT WAS REVERED IN HIS TIME, HIS OBITUARY IS IN HIS BOOK.
I WILL READ A BIT.
OLD STEAM BOATS, THE GRAND O'LE HORSE OF PASSING IS DEAD.
THE HORSE THAT IS HERE IS NO MORE.
IT SOUNDS LIKE WHEN SEA BISCUIT DIED.
>> STEAM BOAT WAS THE STAR OF THE
SHOW, HE WAS THE STAR OF THE FRONTIER
DAYS. IT'S ONE OF THE BUCKING HORSES
RECOGNIZED AND HAS A GREAT TRADITION
HERE IN WYOMING. >> IT STARTS TO COMPETE WITH
POTATO DAYS.
I GUESS THEY WON THAT ONE, DIDN'T THEY.
>> YOU CITED THE WRITING BY JACK WHO
CAME HERE AND OBSERVED FRONTIER DAYS
FOR A TIME. PART OF WHAT HE WROTE, I
WILL JUST PULL IT. BLANK GUNS WENT
OFF, THE SALOONS WERE CROWDED. I WAS
AMAZED. AT THE SAME TIME I FELT IT WAS
RIDICULOUS. IN MY FIRST SHOT OF THE
WEST I WAS LOOKING AT THE SECURE DEVICES IT WAS TO KEEP IT'S
DEVICES. >> HE WAS A MAN.
HE WANTED THE REAL DEAL.
HE HAD THIS PROJECTION. HIS
PROJECTION IN WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS
THIS DOES NOT MATCH MY VISION. MY
VISION IS REAL, THIS IS FAKE. >> WOULD YOU SAY THAT TO THIS
DAY EVEN THOUGH THE PEOPLE LOGICALLY AND
REALISTICALLY WOULD KNOW JUST FACE
THEY ARE GOING TO DISNEY WORLD IS NOT
REAL AND THEY COME TO FRONTIER DAYS.
>> IT'S A SORT OF GREAT TRADITIONAL --
PEOPLE ACCEPT IT. THEY DON'T WANT TO
SEE ANYTHING DIFFERENT. IT'S OKAY.
THEY GET THE RIGHT TO DO THAT. >> WE ALL KNOW COWBOY HAS A VERY
BIG ROLE.
WE'LL RETURN IN ABOUT A MINUTE. >> > WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT KEEPING
THIS WESTERN CULTURE AND ALL OF THESE
TRADITIONS ALIVE? >> BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE
THAT. THAT'S OUR ROOTS, THAT IS THE
WEST, THAT'S NOT JUST WYOMING.
THAT'S HUGE. THAT'S HOW THE WEST GOT STARTED.
WE ARE SETTLING OF THE WEST AND
RAISING CATTLE AND FAMILIES.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO OUR HERITAGE AND WE
WANT TO KEEP THAT ALIVE.
>> ONCE UPON IN THE WEST? >> YES AND STILL IN THE WEST.
>> SAM, DO YOU AGREE WITH SUSAN THOMAS'S STATEMENT ABOUT STILL
IN THE WEST?
>> NO. IN PART YES.
AGRICULTURAL PIECE, I MEAN RANCHING.
IT'S BEEN GOING DOWNHILL EVER SINCE
ECONOMICALLY. BUT LET'S NOT FOOL
OURSELVES ABOUT WHAT IT WAS CONTRIBUTING ECONOMICALLY.
I THINK IT'S A GREAT TRADITION, ONE OF
HORSE MAN SHAPE
HORSEMANSHIP, OPEN SPACE. IT'S NOT HIP
IN WYOMING TO DRIVE AROUND WITH BLANK.
THAT CULTURE MEANS WE LIVE IN A FAIRLY
ECONOMIC CAL WAY. IT'S UTILITY AND
IT'S A PART OF ME THAT GREATLY APPRECIATES THAT.
THERE IS A DISCONNECT THAT THERE IS ONE
THAT HAS VERY RICH AND OTHERS BESIDES THE
COWBOY. >> YOU ACTUALLY, AND I THINK
THIS REFLECTS THE CONTINUING INTEREST
IN HOLE COWBOY CULTURE.
A GUY, SO THAT OTHER WRITERS CAN FAX WRITE AND
THE DETAILS WRITE ABOUT THE LIFE IN
THE WILD WEST.
HOW IS THAT IT REFLECTS THAT INTEREST.
>> IT WAS A BOOK THAT CAME TO ME.
I HAVE BEEN LUCKY WITH MY BOOKS.
I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO WRITE ABOUT
THE WEST IN A VERY BROADWAY TO HELP OTHER
WRITERS WRITE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLY ABOUT
IT AND IT WAS MAINLY THE VICTORIAN
WEST. NOT THE MODERN WEST.
IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT PLACE.
IT DOES HELP WRITERS.
THE BOOK SOLD VERY WELL BUT MORE THAN THAT, THE WRITERS ARE
ABLE TO MAKE THEIR BOOKS MORE
ACCURATE. >> WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU GOTTEN
FROM WRITERS?
>> I GET LETTERS AND E-MAILS ALL THE
TIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE
THE TIME TO DO THE RESEARCH. TO ME
THAT WAS GREAT. I READ EVERYTHING OF
THE FRANK LESLIE ILLUSTRATED. I READ
EVERY ISSUE. THEY HAD IT ON MICRO FILM
AND I CAN SET UP IN HOUSE DURING AN
CAMEPMENT. IT WAS GREAT.
MAYBE THEY WENT DOWN AFTER THE 20s BECAUSE
EVERYTHING WENT DOWN AFTER THE 20s
ESPECIALLY HERE AND THE RANCHERS TODAY
THEY HAVE ECONOMICAL PEOPLE. THEY HAVE
TO BE. THEY ARE NOT MAKING A RICH
LIVING OUT THERE. YOU CAN TELL FROM
THE REAL COWBOYS FROM THE WANT TO BE
COWBOYS. LOOK AT THEIR TRUCKS.
THEY ARE DIRTY AND THEIR TRUCKS ARE
OLD WITH A DOG IN THE BACK.
>> MAYBE WITH A SHINY TRUCK. >> ABSOLUTELY.
WE WANT TO LOOK LIKE A COWBOY.
RIGHT. >> THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO PUT
IN THE WORK, RIGHT?
>> EXACTLY. WE HAD A BAD SNOWSTORM
THAT HIT OUR STATE PRETTY HARD. LET ME
TELL YOU, WHEN YOU ARE RANCHING DURING
THAT TIMEFRAME, THAT IS WORK. THERE IS
NOTHING ROMANTIC ABOUT THAT. >> YOU WROTE SMALL RANCHES ARE
SACRED. BIG RANCHES ARE A SYMBOL OF
PERSONS WITH TOO MUCH MONEY.
>> TRUE EXCEPT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
ACQUIRED RANCHES IN THE DEPRESSION AND
THEY GOT QUITE LARGE AND JUST BECAUSE
THEY START BUYING AT THE COURT HOUSE
STEPS. THAT IS A DIFFERENT ETHOS THAN
TED TURNER BUYING IT. THERE IS AN OLD
TRADITION OF THAT, YOU KNOW. MORE TON MORE TON
FREE MAN CAME AND OTHER PEOPLE CAME
HERE JUST TO RANCH. THAT'S PART OF
HISTORY. >> I DIDN'T TALK MUCH ABOUT
DIFFERENT CITIES AND COUNTIES.
OTHER PLACES THAT ARE LIKE WYOMING BUT AREN'T
WYOMING. I
WAS AT A FUNCTION LAST YEAR AND SPOKE
TO A VICE-PRESIDENT WHO WAS THINKING
ABOUT BUILDING A HOME AND THEY SAID
THEY ARE TOO LIBERAL. FOR A HOME?
IS THAT PART OF WYOMING
>> IT'S A PART OF WYOMING, BUT IT'S A
DIFFERENT PART OF WYOMING. IT'S THE
DEMOCRATIC STRONG IN THE STATE OF
WYOMING. >> TEA TOWN COUNTY HAS CHANGED
ALSO BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE COME IN WITH
BIG MONEY.
THE CULTURE IS NOT THERE. YOU
HAVE TO GO TO LATE FALL BEFORE THE SKI
SEASON TO SEE WHAT JACKSON WAS AND
THAT CORE COMMUNITY IS STILL THERE,
BUT IT'S MUCH HARDER TO FIND. >> I'M GOING TO PLAY ONE OF THE
MOST FAMILIES ALLIANCE IN FILM.
THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY BALANCE.
>>> THE LEGEND BECOMES FACT. PRINT
THE LEGEND. >> IT'S ONE OF THE SLIDES, DID
YOU TELL IT HOLD TRUE TODAY?
>> ABSOLUTELY. YOU BET.
IT'S ONE OF OUR BIGGEST ECONOMIC DRIVERS OF
THE STATE IS TOURISM.
THEY ARE SELLING A LEGEND.
THEY ARE SELLING SOME OF THE TRUTH, BUT THEY ARE SELLING THE
LEGEND AND THAT WHOLE IDEA OF COMING TO
REALLY EXPERIENCE WHAT IT WAS LIKE.
>> MINERALS MONEY THE CACHE. IT'S JUST
SEXY. WE LIKE BECAUSE OF THE REVENUE,
BUT THE COWBOY IS GOING TO LIVE A LOT
LONGER THAN THE PICTURE OF THE OIL
RIG. >> EVEN PASSED WHERE, BECAUSE
YOU KNOW HOW MARGINAL RANCHING CAN BE.
>> IS. >> IF WE GET HIT BY A COUPLE
SERIOUS DROUGHTS IN A ROW IT CAN BECOME
EVEN MORE MARGINAL.
CAN YOU SEE WHERE THE COWBOYS MAY CHANGE BECAUSE OF
ECONOMICS. >> NO, BECAUSE PEOPLE WORK SO
TOUGH AND SO DETERMINED TO STAY ON
THAT LAND.
WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT THE BIG RANCHERS AND THAT
CORPORATE RANCHERS THAT IN SOME PLACES
CORPORATE RANCHERS HAVE SAVED COMMUNITIES
AND SAVED THE TRADITION OF THE WEST
BY BRINGING YOUNGER FAMILIES IN TO
TEACH THEM THOSE TRADITIONS.
THOSE KIDS WILL STICK AROUND.
>> DO YOU HAVE A REAL VISION OF COWBOY
LIKE IS LIKE? >> I DON'T THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT IMPORTANT.
THERE IS A GREAT COGNITIVE DIFFERENCE THAT
MATTERS TO THEM.
IF OUR ECONOMIC LIFEBLOOD IS IN AGRICULTURE OR STOCK RAISING,
THAT IS VERY FAR.
>> THAT IS THE LAST WORD FOR NOW.
FOR THE PEOPLE OF WYOMING AND
TALKING TO CAMMY AND DAVE STUART, HOMEOWNER
OF THE HOTEL AND LEADER OF THE BLUE
GRASS SESSION.
>>> [ MUSIC ] �
>>
