♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪ JIM: HI THERE. I’M JIM ZIRIN. WELCOME BACK FOR MORE CONVERSATIONS. WITH US IS THE GIFTED WRITER, KEN AULETTA, AUTHOR OF 10 BOOKS. FEATURED COLUMNIST FOR YOU NAME IT. THE NEW YORKER. THE VILLAGE VOICE. NEW YORK MAGAZINE. AND CONSUMMATE PROFILER OF THE LIKES OF BARRY DILLER, BILL GATES, RUPERT MURDOCH AND MICHAEL BLOOMBERG. IN 1978, KEN AULETTA WROTE IN A PROFILE IN ESQUIRE MAGAZINE OF ROY COHN, THE CHIEF COUNCIL TO SENATOR JOSEPH MCCARTHY, MASTER OF THE SMEAR OF THE RED SCARE IN THE 1950’S. AND LATER A PUGNACIOUS AND EMBATTLED ATTORNEY, THE TARGET OF THREE FEDERAL INDICTMENTS. COHN WAS A MENTOR TO HIS CLIENT AND FRIEND, DONALD TRUMP, AND TUTORED HIM ON THE IMPORTANCE OF ENTERTAINMENT, THE DARK SIDE OF POLITICS, AND MANIPULATION OF THE MEDIA. COHN HAD A BULLYING NATURE YET ALWAYS CONSIDERED HIMSELF A VICTIM. KEN AULETTA'S ESQUIRE PIECE WAS REPUBLISHED 38 YEARS LATER DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE, IT IS INFORMING INSIGHTS INTO TRUMP’S CHARACTER AND WITH HOW HE COMPOSES HIMSELF IN THE WHITE HOUSE REMAIN RELEVANT TODAY. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. KEN: GOOD TO BE HERE. JIM: HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN ROY COHN? KEN: I WAS WRITING A COLUMN FOR "THE DAILY NEWS." I WAS CO-HOSTING A WEEKLY SHOW ON CHANNEL 13. I HAD JUST STARTED WRITING FOR THE NEW YORKER. COVERING NEW YORK, WHICH IS WHAT I MOSTLY DID FOR THE "DAILY NEWS," I KEPT ENCOUNTERING THE FACT THAT ROY COHN WAS A POWERBROKER IN NEW YORK. I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT HOW THAT CAME ABOUT. HE WAS A PARTNER OF STANLEY FRIEDMAN WHO WAS A BRONX COUNTY DEMOCRATIC LEADER IN A LAW PRACTICE. HE HAD POWERFUL FRIENDS OVER THE YEARS. BILL FUGAZY HE GREW UP WITH. CY NEWHOUSE HE GREW UP WITH. RICHARD HURST, THE HEAD OF- RICHARD BERLIN, HEAD OF HURST HE GREW UP WITH. JIM: POPE WAS THE PUBLISHER OF THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER. HE FOUNDED THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER. KEN: AND ROY COHN WITH HIS FRIEND MANAGED TO EITHER KILL OR GET STORIES IN THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER. JIM: WE SEE THAT BY THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER TODAY? KEN: I WAS FASCINATED WHO ROY COHN WAS AND HOW HE WAS ABLE TO COME BACK FROM DISGRACE IN A LIBERAL CITY LIKE NEW YORK, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS BEEN DISGRACED REPRESENTING A RIGHT-WING SENATOR AND HOW HE WAS A POWERBROKER. I SET OUT TO PROFILE HIM. HE FIRST SAID HE WOULD NOT COOPERATE. I PROCEEDED TO STARTED CALLING PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM AND STANLEY FRIEDMAN, I KNEW HIM OVER THE YEARS. I SAID TO STANLEY FRIEDMAN, LOOK I DON’T THINK IT IS ROY COHN’S INTERESTS FOR ME TO BE TALKING JUST TO HIS ADVERSARIES. THAT IS WHO I AM TALKING TO NOW AND WHOEVER WOULD TALK TO ME. I THINK HE SHOULD TALK TO ME. WITHIN A HALF AN HOUR ROY COHN CALLED ME AND WE WERE ON OUR WAY. I SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME WITH HIM OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS. JIM: HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU MEET WITH THEM? KEN: I MET WITH HIM AND HAD LUNCH IS AND FOLLOWED HIM IN COURT CASES AND DID INTERVIEWS. I DID ABOUT 12 HOURS OF TAPED INTERVIEWS WITH HIM. JIM: IN THE COURSE OF YOUR RESEARCH, DID YOU MEET DONALD TRUMP? KEN: I INTERVIEWED DONALD TRUMP ONCE OR TWICE. JIM: IN CONNECTION WITH COHN? KEN: IN CONNECTION WITH COHN. WHAT YOU DID WAS TRY TO FIND OUT WHO HIS MOST IMPORTANT CLIENTS WERE. THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE BESS MEYERSON AND ALSO PEOPLE LIKE DONALD TRUMP. SO I CALLED DONALD TRUMP AND ASKED HIM ABOUT ROY COHN. I FOUND OUT THE STORY OF HOW THEY MET AND WHAT ROY COHN DID FOR DONALD TRUMP AS A LAWYER. JIM: HOW DID HE MEET DONALD TRUMP? KEN: THEY HAD MITCHELL- LAMA HOUSING PROJECTS, WHICH IS WHERE THE FATHER MADE HIS MONEY IN BOTH BROOKLYN AND QUEENS. THEY WERE BEING SUED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR HOUSING DISCRIMINATION, SAYING THEY WERE DELIBERATELY NOT RENTING TO MINORITIES IN ORDER TO KEEP IT ALL WHITE. DONALD TRUMP WENT TO ROY COHN WHO HE HAD BEEN REFERRED TO AS A KILLER LAWYER, SOMEONE WHO WOULD FIGHT TO THE DEATH ON BEHALF OF HIS CLIENTS. HE BROUGHT THE CASE TO COHN AND TOLD HIM WHAT IT WAS. JIM: HE MET THEM IN A BAR, DIDN’T HE? KEN: I NEVER WENT TO THE CLUB. IT IS NO LONGER THERE, OBVIOUSLY. THEY DID MEET THERE. DONALD WAS A MAN ABOUT TOWN AND WAS A BACHELOR AND LIKE TO HANG OUT WHERE MODELS WOULD GO, PLACES LIKE FRIDAYS AND MAXWELL'S PLUM. COHN APPARENTLY WENT TO THE CLUB AND THAT IS WHERE DONALD MET HIM. ROY SAID LET’S MEET AND TALK ABOUT THIS. DONALD TRUMP BROUGHT THE CASE, AND COHN DID WHAT HE ALWAYS DID WAS SAID, DON’T WORRY ABOUT A THING, YOU ARE GOING TO BEAT THIS CASE AND WE WILL KILL THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. JIM: COHN DIDN’T GO TO A CLUB LOOKING FOR MODELS, HE WAS GAY. DID YOU ASK HIM IF HE WAS GAY? KEN: I DID. I DIDN’T PRINT IT, I WILL TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED. COHN WAS A GUY WHO WAS BLACK AND WHITE. EVERYTHING WAS VERY SIMPLE. IT WAS EITHER BLACK OR WHITE. YES OR NO. WHEN I ASKED HIM THE QUESTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION AT THE TIME, SHOULD YOU RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE? AND I ASKED ROY COHN, WE WERE SITTING IN HIS BROWNSTONE DRINKING COFFEE. JIM: HE WORKED OUT OF HIS ON 68TH STREET. KEN: HE CAME DOWNSTAIRS IN A PINK ROBE. JIM: PINK ROBE AND PAJAMAS? KEN: I DON’T KNOW WHAT HE HAD ON UNDER THE ROBE, I DIDN’T LOOK. HE CAME DOWN FOR BREAKFAST, AND I SAID, MR. COHN, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE CITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON GAYS? FOR THE FIRST TIME, HE DIDN’T SAY HE WAS AGAINST IT OR FOR IT. HE SAID IT IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE. ON THE ONE HAND, THERE IS THIS ARGUMENT. ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS COUNTER ARGUMENT. HE DID NOT COME OUT WITH A CLEAR POSITION. I LOOKED AT HIM AND SAID, MR. COHN, ARE YOU GAY? NORMALLY, HE WOULD ANSWER VERY QUICKLY ANY QUESTION. HE PAUSED A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN SAID, I DON’T KNOW WHY THAT IS A RELEVANT QUESTION. HE NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION. I NEVER WROTE THAT I ASKED IT AND IT WAS NEVER ANSWERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON. IF I DID THAT, THE ASKING OF THE QUESTION IS TO ASSUME YOU ARE GUILTY IF YOU ARE GAY. THAT IS THE EXACT THING HE DID IN THE MCCARTHY HEARINGS. ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A COMMUNIST? THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT IF SOMEONE SIGNED UP TO THE COMMUNIST PARTY IN THE 1920’S OR 1930’S, THEY WERE AUTOMATICALLY A TRAITOR TO THE UNITED STATES. I DID NOT THINK THAT WAS FAIR TO BE DOING. I LOVED THE FACT THAT I MADE HIM SUFFER, WHICH IS WHY I DID IT AND WHY I DIDN'T PUBLISH IT. JIM: IN THE PLAY, ANGELS IN AMERICA, COHN IS PORTRAYED AS A HYPOCRITE BECAUSE HE WAS A CLOSETED GAY, AND HE WAS CONSISTENTLY AGAINST GAY RIGHTS. HE MADE ALMOST PROFANE ANTI-GAY REMARKS FROM TIME TO TIME, AND HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY ENGAGED TO BARBARA WALTERS FOR A WHILE. EVERYTHING WAS HIDDEN UNDER THE RUG. KEN: HE WAS A HYPOCRITE ON THAT. HE LIVED A LIFE THAT ULTIMATELY KILLED HIM. HE HAD AIDS. JIM: HE DIED FROM EIGHT IN 1986. KEN: HE HUNG OUT AT A PLACE CALLED UNCLE CHARLIE'S SOUTH ON 2ND AVENUE IN THE 1930’S. IT WAS A GAY BAR WITH VERY YOUNG BOYS WHO WENT THERE, AND HE WOULD HANG OUT THERE. AND BARBARA WALTERS HE HAD DATED BECAUSE HE REPRESENTED HER FATHER. HE CALLED HER UP AND THEIR FIRST DATE WAS TO GO TO THE BRONX COUNTY DEMOCRATIC DINNER. THEY JUST BECAME FRIENDS. ROY WAS NOT INTERESTED IN WOMEN. JIM: LET’S GO BACK TO THE RACIAL DISCRIMINATION CASE. I THINK TRUMP HAD TALKED TO A NUMBER OF LAWYERS, AND THEY SAID YOU OUGHT TO SETTLE THIS ONE AND PROBABLY GET A SLAP ON THE WRIST WHERE YOU NEITHER ADMIT OR DENY THE CHARGES AND NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. COHN TOLD HIM HE OUGHT TO FIGHT. WHAT WAS THE STRATEGY IN THE CASE? KEN: THIS WAS TYPICAL COHN AND NOW HAS BECOME TYPICAL DONALD TRUMP. WHAT HE SAID IS YOU NEVER APOLOGIZE, NEVER ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG, YOU GO ON THE OFFENSIVE, NEVER THE DEFENSIVE. WHEN YOU THINK OF A DONALD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT OR CANDIDATE, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE FOLLOWED. WHAT COHN SAID TO HIM WAS YOU DON’T SETTLE AND WE WILL SUE THE BASTARDS AND WIN THIS CASE. JIM: SO HE COUNTER CLAIMED AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT. FOR $100 MILLION. KEN: WHICH IS TYPICAL AGAIN, PUT THEM ON THE DEFENSE, GO ON THE OFFENSE. THAT WAS COHN'S PHILOSOPHY AS A LAWYER. IT BECAME DONALD TRUMP’S PHILOSOPHY AS A BUSINESSMAN AND POLITICIAN. JIM: THE COUNTER CLAIM WAS DISMISSED AND AROUND THREE YEARS LATER, DO YOU KNOW THE OUTCOME WAS? KEN: THEY SETTLED. JIM: WITHOUT ADMITTING OR DENYING THE CHARGES. KEN: WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE NEWS, IT WAS QUIETLY DONE. JIM: HE CLAIMED VICTORY. THAT WAS ANOTHER ROY COHN TRAIT, EVEN IF YOU LOSE YOU CLAIM VICTORY. KEN: IT IS ALTERNATIVE FACTS. JIM: NOW WE'RE SAYING TRUTH DECAY. KEN: YOU JUST CLAIM ANYTHING YOU WANT. THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID IN THE ART OF THE DEAL. IT IS OK TO -- HYPERBOLE IS GOOD. JIM: ALL THE WHILE SAYING THERE WAS NO FINDING THAT HE HAD DISCRIMINATED WHEN THE EVIDENCE WAS QUITE OVERWHELMING. KEN: HE DID THE SAME THING DURING THE CAMPAIGN WITH TRUMP UNIVERSITY. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO SUE THEM AND VERY QUIETLY SETTLED THE CASE. IN THE END, HE PAID A PENALTY. JIM: HE PAID $25 MILLION. HE SAID HE JUST DID THAT BECAUSE HE WAS PRESIDENT AND DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO DEFEND THE CASE. YOU HAVE CALLED COHN THE PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WHO HE WAS BUT WHAT WAS HE REALLY LIKE? WHY WAS HE THE PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL? KEN: I NEVER INTERVIEWED IN THE MANY PROFILES I HAVE DONE OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE NEVER INTERVIEWED OR SPENT TIME WITH A MORE REVOLTING CHARACTER THAN ROY COHN. HE HAD NO REGARD FOR TRUTH. HE HAD JUST REGARD FOR GETTING OUT OF A HOLE HE WAS IN AND SAYING WHATEVER HE HAD TO SAY TO GET OUT OF THE HOLE. IF YOU LOOK AT HIS BEHAVIOR IN THE MCCARTHY HEARINGS, HE MADE CHARGES AGAINST PEOPLE AND DESTROYED LIVES. JIM: THE ART OF THE SMEAR. KEN: THE ART OF THE SMEAR, AND HE DID THIS IN COURT AND HE DID IT WITH GREAT JOY. THE PIECE WAS CALLED THE LEGAL EXECUTIONER. I THOUGHT HE WOULD HATE THE PIECE. HE LOVED THE PIECE AT FIRST BECAUSE IT WAS A CALLING CARD FOR HIM. JIM: GOOD FOR BUSINESS. KEN: PEOPLE WILL HIRE ME TO KILL HER HUSBAND OR SPOUSE OR KILL THEIR BUSINESS PARTNER. IT IS A CALLING CARD FOR ME. HE CALLED ME UP AND ASKED HOW HE COULD GET 500 COPIES. JIM: BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GIVE THEM TO HIS FRIENDS OR TAKE THEM OUT? KEN: HE WANTED TO GIVE THEM TO HIS FRIENDS. I REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME I SAT WITH HIM -- TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION AS TO WHY HE WAS EVIL. I SAT WITH HIM AT LUNCH AT THE 21 CLUB, AND WE HAD A CHOICE TABLE. HE DID NOT ORDER FOOD. I MUST HAVE HAD A HAMBURGER AND FRENCH FRIES. HE WOULD LITERALLY TAKE FRENCH FRIES OFF OF MY PLATE AND FEED HIMSELF. I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF ODD AND CERTAINLY UNUSUAL. THEN HE WOULD LOOK AT HIS MANY CLIENTS IN THE ROOM AND TO A REPORTER LIKE ME, HE WOULD TELL ME, SEE BESS MYERSON OVER THERE, LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HER DIVORCE. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT SHE DID. SO HE WAS TRADING INFORMATION ON HIS CLIENTS IN THE ROOM WHICH I THOUGHT WAS UNETHICAL. I DIDN’T WRITE ANY OF THAT. I AM NOT A GOSSIP COLUMNIST. I WAS APPALLED BY IT. I THOUGHT, HOW DOES A MAN DO THAT? IT SUGGESTED TO ME THAT THIS MAN WITH NO CORE SET OF CONVICTIONS THAT HE WAS TRYING TO IMPRESS ME. JIM: YOU TALKED ABOUT HIS ASSOCIATIONS WITH POWERFUL POLITICAL FIGURES. YOU OMITTED CARDINAL SPELLMAN WHO WAS IN MANY WAYS A POLITICAL FIGURE. BUT HE ALSO HAD CLOSE TIES TO THE MOB, ORGANIZED CRIME. WERE YOU AWARE OF THAT WHEN YOU DID THE INTERVIEW? KEN: OH, YES. IT WAS IN THE PROFILE. JIM: A COUPLE OF DONS WERE ON HIS SPEED DIAL. KEN: PEOPLE HIRED HIM WHETHER IT WAS THE MAFIA OR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. A CARDINAL WAS BEING TALKED ABOUT AS A RIGHT-WING FUNDER. YOU HIRED A LAWYER WANTING THEM TO KILL YOUR OPPONENT, AND IF YOU THE CONFIDENCE THAT THEY WERE TOTALLY ON YOUR SIDE AND THEY WOULD LEGALLY KILL YOUR OPPONENT. THAT WAS HIS CALLING CARD. THE MAFIA LOVED THAT HE WAS NOT INTIMIDATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND WILL FIGHT THE WAY I WANT TO FIGHT, THEY WOULD SAY. JIM: WAS IT A FACT THAT HE MET WITH THEM IN HIS TOWNHOUSE, AND THEY WENT THERE BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS LITTLE DANGER A JUDGE WOULD SIGN A WARRANT FOR A LAWYER’S OFFICE? KEN: THAT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD. I THINK HE MET THEM IN VARIOUS PLACES, INCLUDING HIS OFFICE. COHN ACTED WITH IMPUNITY. I DO NOT THINK HE WAS A GUY WHO THOUGHT, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD BEEN INDICTED THREE SEPERATE TIMES, HE WAS BEING WIRETAPPED, THERE WAS A SENSE ABOUT HIM THAT HE CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING. JIM: HE HAD AN AFFECT THAT HE DIDN’T WANT TO BE HEARD BECAUSE HE WAS PLOTTING SOME EVIL. HIS CLASSIC POSE WAS WHISPERING IN SOMEONE’S EAR. KEN: NO QUESTION. PART OF THAT WAS BEING PARANOID. JIM: DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE MOB PEOPLE HE WAS CONNECTED TO? KEN: HE DID REPRESENT THE GUY WHO WALKED THE STREETS IN HIS BATHROBE. I THINK HE REPRESENTED THE GENOVESE FAMILY AS WELL. JIM: I THINK HE WENT TO CARMINE GALANTE'S FUNERAL'S, THE FUNERAL HOME IN BROOKLYN. KEN: HE LOVED TALKING ABOUT WHY HE RESPECTED A LOT OF THE MAFIA. THEY DID NOT RAT ON THEIR FRIENDS, THEY WERE LOYAL TO THEIR FRIENDS AND ASSOCIATES. THEY WERE TOUGH GUYS. ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS MATTERED TO ROY COHN. IT MAY NOT MATTER TO SOME OF THE REST OF US. JIM: HE ALSO REPRESENTED CASTELLANO AND SALERNO WHO CONTROLLED THE PORT CONCRETE BUSINESS IN NEW YORK CITY AND WERE INVOLVED IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF TRUMP TOWER. IN YOUR RESEARCH, DID YOU FIND INDICATION THAT HE INTRODUCED TRUMP TO ANY OF THEM? KEN: I DID NOT. I DID NOT ALTHOUGH IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT HE DID. CERTAINLY THAT HAS COME OUT SUBSEQUENT TO THAT PIECE WHICH WAS '78 THAT MOBSTERS HAD RELATIONSHIPS IN DOING BUILDING IN TRUMP TOWER AND ELSEWHERE. JIM: THERE WAS A GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION THAT RESULTED IN INDICTMENTS. KEN: YOU HAD BAD PEOPLE LIVING IN TRUMP TOWER. JIM: FROM THE RUSSIAN MAFIA AND FROM ORGANIZED CRIME FIGURES. KEN: TRUMP WAS A GUY WHO MUCH LIKE COHN, THIS IS BUSINESS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUSINESS. JIM: IT'S LIKE THE GODFATHER OR SOMETHING. NOTHING PERSONAL IT'S JUST BUSINESS. KEN: IF I CAN GET THIS BUILDING BUILT WITHOUT LABOR STRIKES AND DIFFICULTIES AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO MAY BE ROY COHN INTRODUCED HIM TO, THAT IS A GREAT THING. TRUMP TOWER WASN'T BUILT UNTIL THE 80S. JIM: YOUR PIECE WAS IN 1978. THEN WAS REPUBLISHED DURING THE CAMPAIGN BECAUSE IT HAD A CONTINUING VITALITY. COHN WAS THE MASTER OF THE THREATENING LETTER. TRUMP SAID HE SAVED US A LOT OF MONEY BECAUSE A LETTER FROM ROY COHN SENDS EVERYONE SHIVERING IN THEIR BOOTS. WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND OUT ABOUT THREATENING LETTERS? KEN: HE DID IT ALL THE TIME. THAT WAS ANOTHER CALLING CARD. HE SAID, I WILL HANDLE IT. HE WOULD SEND AN IN-YOUR-FACE, THREATENING LETTER TO THE OTHER PARTY IN THE HOPE THAT THEY WOULD JUST RETREAT AND SURRENDER. IF NOT, HE TOOK THEM TO COURT. TRUMP HAS HAD THAT BEHAVIOR THROUGHOUT HIS BUSINESS CAREER. JIM: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THAT TRUMP HAD A PHOTOGRAPH OF ROY COHN ON HIS DESK AND WHEN SOMEONE CAME TO NEGOTIATE A MATTER, HE'D TAKE THE PHOTOGRAPH AND SAID IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH ME, THIS IS MY LAWYER? KEN: I NEVER HEARD OF THAT. BUT WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, HE TALKED ABOUT IT WITH PRIDE THAT ROY COHN IS MY LAWYER AND THAT IS MY ARMOR. IF YOU WANT TO GO AFTER ME, YOU’LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH HIM. JIM: WHAT ABOUT MANIPULATING THE PRESS? ONE OF THE THINGS COHN SAID TO YOU WAS THAT THE ONLY FORM OF BAD PUBLICITY IS NO PUBLICITY. DO YOU THINK THAT IS ANOTHER LESSON HE TAUGHT TO DONALD TRUMP? KEN: TOTALLY. COHN WAS A GUY, AND AS TRUMP USED TO BE, HE'S NO LONGER THIS WAY, YOU COULD WRITE SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT COHN AS YOU CAN WRITE SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT TRUMP -- I HAD AN EXPENSE WITH BOTH IN THE 1970’S AND 1980’S, AND YOU COULDN’T OFFEND THEM. BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO BE IN THE PRESS BECAUSE THE PRESS HELPED DEFINE YOU. I REMEMBER WRITING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IN THE SWEETHEART DEAL THAT HE GOT FROM THE CITY OF NEW YORK TO BUILD THE OLD COMMODORE HOTEL AND GET TAX AVOIDANCE OF ALMOST $200 MILLION. HE WOULD CALL ME UP OR WRITE ME LETTERS AND SAY LET’S HAVE LUNCH. THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE DONALD TRUMP TODAY. HE GOT THAT FROM ROY COHN. ROY COHN SAID THE PRESS IS GOOD AND YOU NEED PUBLICITY, AND PUT YOUR SPIN ON IT. IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE LITERALLY TRUE. THEY WRITE IT, IT WILL BE BELIEVED, THAT IS GOOD. JIM: AND INGRATIATE YOURSELF WITH THE PRESS BECAUSE HE WAS A SOURCE WASN'T HE FOR PAGE SIX OF THE NEW YORK POST? KEN: IF YOU ARE A SOURCE FOR GOSSIP COLUMNISTS, IF YOU'RE A SOURCE IN GENERAL BUT MORE SO IN THE GOSSIP WORLD, THEY ALLOW YOU TO TRADE IN. IT BECOMES A FORM OF PROTECTION. JIM: WELL CINDY ADAMS, WHO KNEW TRUMP VERY WELL, WAS PRESENT WHEN TRUMP LEARNED HE HAD WON THE ELECTION IN NOVEMBER OF 2016. AND SHE TOLD ME THAT TRUMP SAID IF ROY COHN WERE HERE HE NEVER WOULD HAVE BELIEVED IT. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT COHN LEFT AN IMPRESSION AND WE NOW HAVE THE TWO INSTANCES SINCE HE HAS BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE HE WAS LAMENTING THE FACT THAT LAWYERS WEREN’T PROTECTING HIM IN THE RUSSIAN INVESTIGATION FROM BOB MUELLER AND HE SAID, I WISH I HAD ROY COHN HERE. DO YOU BELIEVE THERE WAS SUCH AN IMPRESSION THAT HE LEFT ON HIM? KEN: TO TRUMP, ROY COHN WAS A LEGAL EXECUTIONER. HE WAS SOMEONE YOU HIRED WHO WOULD FIERCELY PROTECT YOUR BACK AND ASSAIL ANYONE WHO WAS YOUR OPPONENT. HE FEELS THAT JEFF SESSIONS HAS NOT DONE THAT AS ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR HIM AND A LOT OF HIS STAFF DOES NOT DO THAT, AND THEY LEAK STUFF ABOUT HIM. ROY COHN WAS A PROPONENT FOR DONALD TRUMP AND INTERESTINGLY IN THE END, ROY COHN FELT BETRAYED BY DONALD TRUMP BUT WE CAN GET TO THAT- JIM: YES. OF COURSE, ROY COHN WAS DISBARRED. THERE WAS A DISBARMENT HEARING. TRUMP TESTIFIED AS A CHARACTER WITNESS. TRUMP THREW HIM A PARTY AT MAR-A-LAGO BEFORE COHN DIED AND TRUMP WENT TO HIS FUNERAL. WHY WAS HE BETRAYED? KEN: THERE WAS THE TIME WHEN ROY CONTRACTED AIDS AND WAS SLOWLY DYING. DONALD TRUMP CUT HIM OFF AND DID NOT MAKE THE VISIT AND REACH OUT WITH PHONE CALLS. I AM GUESSING ON THIS, HE PROBABLY FELT DISGUSTING, THAT THIS GUY WAS GAY AND PROMISCUOUS AND DYING FROM THAT. DONALD TRUMP IS A TEETOTALER. HIS BROTHER DIED OF ALCOHOLISM. HE HAS A VIEW OF UNPROTECTED SEX AND OTHER THINGS. HE IS A GERMAPHOBE. DONALD TRUMP WOULDN'T SHAKE YOUR HAND. HE WOULD NOW BECAUSE HE HAS TO AS A CANDIDATE OR AS PRESIDENT, BUT BACK IN THE 70S OR 80S IF YOU WENT TO SHAKE DONALD TRUMP'S HAND HE WOULD PULL IT BACK. HE WOULD ALWAYS HAVE HAND WASH WITH HIM. I COULD SEE HIM LOOKING AT DISTAIN AT ROY COHN'S BEHAVIOR. ROY COHN CONFIDED TO PEOPLE, INCLUDING STANLEY FRIEDMAN, THAT HE FELT THAT DONALD TRUMP BETRAYED HIM AND WAS NOT HIS LOYAL FRIEND IN THE END. DID DONALD TRUMP IN THE END FEEL GUILTY ABOUT THAT? I AM NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST. JIM: I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU KEN AULETTA BECAUSE WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ROY COHN IS SITTING NEXT TO DONALD TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHISPERING IN HIS EAR TODAY? KEN: I THINK DONALD TRUMP INTERNALIZED THE LESSONS HE GOT FROM HIS MENTOR, ROY COHN, AND ACTS OUT WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT BY COHN. ATTACK, NEVER APOLOGIZE, NEVER BE ON THE DEFENCE, HYPERBOLE OR EXAGGERATION, AND LIE. THREATENING IS GOOD. WE CALL IT A LIE, HE DOESN’T. JIM: THANK YOU SO MUCH. KEN: MY PLEASURE. JIM: THANK YOU FOR COMING BY. TUNE IN NEXT WEEK FOR MORE CONVERSATIONS. I’M JIM ZIRIN. TAKE CARE AND ALL THE BEST. ♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
