What are We Conserving? What are we Debating?

come on [Music] [Applause] [Music] well greetings and welcome to the dividing line boy everything looks different around here every time I leave it's rich and my wife both basically try to wipe out any evidence of my existence while I'm gone it's really weird I come back in here everything's moved around um my mouse doesn't work I've got completely new cameras uh that why does an ugly face like this need 4K I'm thinking 640x480 stop that um quit playing around with that uh get back to where you work don't don't mess don't no no none of that kind of stuff um in fact you were tired than that before but anyway uh so rich has stuff to play with now uh but yeah every time I come back everything everything's different and changed the um 2023 reform podcast Championship uh thing back there so that's I guess good but I'm hey I'm I'm sort of used to having control now uh I don't have a little I don't have any buttons to push or nothing yeah there's he's there's is that is that is that mine right there uh-huh okay so well you could put one in here oh okay so allegedly I'm being told I'm I'm being told allegedly that um next week I have to do this on my own um so I have to I have to somehow figure all this stuff out so it's you might just want to tune in next week just for the laughs um if it even gets posted you know because it may not uh even get recorded or you know it reminds me for some reason I was just thinking about years and years and years and years ago when they first introduced wireless microphones we tried them at the church I was at um this big huge Southern Baptist Church and uh the one time we tried them all of a sudden a local country music station popped in on the frequency and we didn't use them again I'm sure they did eventually but um not not while I was there anyway here we are back in Phoenix I'm not coughing my head off thankfully I think I turned the corner last night I would like to thank uh whoever in Pryor Oklahoma graciously granted to me the gift of uh respiratory infection but I'm hearing everybody these days either has this or the stomach thing um but have you noticed the regime hasn't said anything um we don't have any mask mandates and yet I would imagine that the mortality rate is pretty much the same for the vast majority of the population as it was for covid which um anyways that's not even I can't even talk about stuff like that where are we where are we live streaming yeah I can't talk about that on Facebook no I can't no I can't you know that um you're well aware of the fact I can't uh no no no until we have Twitter and then who knows how long Twitter's Gonna Last look eventually it's only going to be Odyssey um we just we all know what's what's coming in fact I posted a video from that Robinson fellow in um England talk about all the friends of his and all the uh podcasts and organizations there in the UK um all of their bank accounts are being canceled and they can't find Banks to open an account with because they don't support the narrative Chick-fil-A uh is now going for their ESG score and if if you're wondering why all all this is happening other than the Judgment of God taking out the United States for its sin um if you're wondering why all this is happening I I didn't understand it either but I've had a number of smart people um direct me to sources demonstrating that it's not the it's not the tyrants in the Biden regime that are doing this though they're allied with the people that are it's people at BlackRock and these huge conglomerates that control Banks and Industry and if you want to get uh you have to have a certain ESG score Dei ESG all this stuff um to get a decent bank loan to get a decent rate on a bank loan and and people keep saying why would why would these companies just ABS I mean look at what has happened to Target 10 billion dollars in market value gone a billion dollars a day uh Bud Light just destroyed why um because you can get better loan rates and that ends up making up for all that money I mean I'm no financier um but what what everybody's telling me is that's that's what this is all about is um you know just having your place in the corporate world and the people at the top have decided we are going to destroy um the United States of America would destroy Western culture we're gonna destroy um judeo-christian values sexuality Humanity um all of it gotta go and so we're just gonna use money to do it and we use people's greed to do it uh they're the same people destroying Farms the same people destroying livestock they want us hungry poor and dependent I can't help but think of just one movie what was that movie with Matt Damon in it um where all the the elites live up on a space station and they have special Medical Treatments and all the rest of stuff and all the rest of the scum live in Township type towns townships from South Africa uh Soweto and stuff like that back on Earth um that's that's their goal that's what they want and they are accomplishing it it is astonishing at the rate um they they labored for decades they laid the foundation they prepared the environment educational system the universities uh they they've made it so people think that the first place you turn um is to the government the government needs to do this for me the government needs to do that for me and so they you got to give them credit they had their goal and um now they're not going to accomplish in the end they don't realize that what they're doing they do realize it's Rebellion against God but um they don't realize that you can't live in the world God created in that way and it's all going to fall down on top of itself uh but yes it may um we have to go through the the Judgment in the process and so anyways before we get to other stuff and get back into that I have with me a little item that I showed um from the mobile unit which is currently in storage and I think is gonna it's gonna be really interesting when I pull that thing back out of storage in just a matter of weeks um we've got a unfortunately we're gonna have to take that background down and redo it um we're gonna have to pull that and then clean that surface and then use some kind of pre-adhesive something um to to do it right but hey I got really close I I it nobody can tell but it's not going to survive um but it can be done and uh we will we will make it happen and I love it and it's it's great to be able to do that anyways I showed you this and oh better be careful um this is our Derek Melton forged um I don't know how he would describe this he he had a specific thing especially for this handle um and I saw what the handle looked like as a block I'm not sure exactly how he does this uh he has this um well it's changing uh he's having a new um Workshop built but uh anyway it is he said this is the most amazing Damascus steal that he's he's he's ever forged and it is uh truly truly gorgeous it is uh it's a piece of of art uh with a really nicely made and it clicks right in there that's why it took me a second to get it out there and um sheath and so this was originally for the fundraiser and you all have already been so gracious we have paid off those things um but so now you know I sat my my the new RV sat in uh Derek's right in front of right in front of I mean literally I was parked I was plugged into the same electrical circuit okay that runs the forge and all the rest of that stuff um and so I was right next to the workshop just across the lawn from from the house um I got to uh have to dodge Sadie uh their new uh puppy who is a puppy and who loves to jump um but will be a much calmer Australian Shepherd in the future I'm sure um and they're little teeny they've got a little teeny tiny kitty that that I fell in love with and fell in love with me two years ago a little princess and uh she's Skin and Bones now just like my Darth is uh Skin and Bones they're they're at the end of their end of their run and uh but it was sweet to see all them anyways uh point being uh to get back to places like prior we have the travel fund and so uh the kindly donated um items uh we'll we'll be going to the travel fund and so I'm not sure did we announce what the Bible's final thing was I think we I think I may have I yeah so um very very thankful uh to those who uh made bids to where the Jeffrey Rice rebind the final on that was 17 hundred dollars that was really really amazing and um uh just so thankful to Jeffrey and to everybody who made that possible so when are you gonna when are you gonna put it up he Rich says he can put up to there tomorrow the only thing is we have to limit it to the United States it's a knife literally you can't own this in London it's astonishing but it's true you can't own it in London sorry guys but uh that's that's the way it is so we don't want to have to play games with stuff getting hung up in customs and all the rest of that kind of stuff so we're gonna have to limit to the uh to the US where you can still own a knife um at least in most places maybe we should keep New York City out and San Diego as San Francisco as if anybody there would be bidding on it anyways but um and we'll be putting that up and that'll be going toward the travel fund we have um three more trips uh this one two three more trips this year um the one in July is about 4 300 miles 33 days I have not started booking um September yet I need to uh but that one takes me all the way back to Pennsylvania Atlanta that's going to probably be I estimate around 5300 miles something like that um and uh so gotta gotta make all that happen and so we very much appreciate Pastor Melton's support and uh looking forward to there is a little there is a little competition you know there are people going which one's gonna get the biggest uh biggest a bid um and uh if you're familiar with handmade blades and stuff like that um then then you have some idea what something like this would normally go for and um so we'll see what happens from there so that'll be great all right watch that'll be on Facebook as we are at the moment anyways for now until we're not um because in essence what we're discovering is there is a tiny tiny tiny minority a very loud screechy people uh who it only takes one or two complaints and that gets people taken down it gets their bank accounts canceled it the cancel culture is amazing as long as you are the victim and um it is there's no way for free speech and civilization to continue under this kind of a regime but that's that's what we're facing yes sir so um on the twitch front remember twitch right I've tried to forget it so they um they've reactivated the account after a 30-day suspension and they can't figure out why we're not coming back and I keep getting emails and I keep sending them emails back and through support and saying hey um you guys arbitrarily canceled us you never once gave us an example of how we violated your community standards yet when you actually read point three on the charge that you make against us it has to do with accusing or attacking a religious organization how is it that what you did here was not an attack on a religious organization you guys are hypocrites just delete the account you can't be dependent on you can't be trusted goodbye yeah and that's what I'm trying to do with them so yeah well um that's gonna look this is uh the kind of secular totalitarianism that has taken over corporations government Across the Western world not so much in Africa but everywhere else um cannot allow for free speech you cannot allow for anyone to think other than the way you're supposed to think according to them um they lose their minds when anyone has a thought outside of the realm that they demand that we that we possess and so this is coming for all of us we were talking more about it in 2021 because we saw the lockdowns and the vax stuff and everything else it's coming back um we will not escape this um like I said Banking and boy once they've got digital currency um that's it I I don't have the answers as to how we will be able to continue to try to be of encouragement and to discuss important subjects and to get information out there and do research and things like that I don't know I just don't know um you know there's the Dark web and stuff like that I suppose I don't know about that stuff and most people who really need the ministry we provide don't know about that stuff either and I can guarantee you what will eventually happen is uh it will be illegal to even try to access such things and then they'll just put away anybody they want to put away by accusing you of trying to access that and since they probably have access to your computer anyways they can make it look like you did um that's what mono parties that you know we have all these books described all this stuff 40 50 years ago and yet we're doing it despite the fact that 40 50 years ago people were saying you know things keep going this way uh this could happen and we were we were just like didn't even see it coming so while we still have the opportunity uh let's uh let's talk about the things that that are important um I just made a mistake um and uh I wonder if I can get back to that oh good nope I didn't oh is it here okay good all right couple things uh I need to get to a Catholic answers article that I'd never seen until yesterday I think that was published on my birthday last year by Joe heshmeier who looks about um well I don't think Joe hechemeyer was around when we were doing all the debates with Catholic answers let's just put it that way I think he's that young um I want to take a look at that um article which again I said just saw it and went oh okay there's something we need to respond to before we get to that and the uh debate threads that developed uh without my input or permission uh I would I would add over the past I don't know a week or so a couple things that again I'm hesitant to address it not for any other reason than this particular program could just disappear in the middle of its uh in the middle of its being broadcast um because the topics that we need to talk about again are no longer topics that allow for free speech but we'll take a shot and if that means we're back on Odyssey on Thursday then that that's what it means but two things over the past 24 hours one was a video of a Charlie Kirk Turning Point USA event Charlie Kirk has a black male on the stage with him who I guess is a self-professed homosexual in fact calls himself a gay Christian I don't know anything about the man um like I said the the video just sort of popped up last evening and foreign a fellow in the audience basically asks how can we be defending conservatism when we won't hold the line on marriage homosexuality transgenderism all of these types of things and at the same time you have that video which did not turn out well let's just put it that way um there really wasn't an answer given other than we just need a big tent and there are other important things to focus upon and we need to have people like this in our movement at the same time Ted Cruz um posted a tweet the nation of Uganda has passed a law criminalizing homosexuality and in fact including I believe the death penalty for exacerbated homosexuality or something whatever term they're using and all of a sudden people are having to think about stuff that they didn't have to think about again prior to 2020. I would like to ask Ted Cruz um what he thinks about Leviticus 18 and 20. and whether the Mosaic code was horrific and wrong but I'd have to ask that question of pretty much every Evangelical Across the Western world I think I could be wrong but I think the answers today would be different in 2023 than they would have been five years ago I don't think the vast majority of us had even given consideration I had obviously but I don't think the vast majority of evangelicals had even given consideration to the concept and to the relevance of God's law in the modern context most people are probably not aware of the fact that sodomy was a crime in the United States uh from the beginning the founding fathers certainly did not believe it was one of the human rights that have since been discovered in their writings that they didn't know were there at all and that these had been overturned only recently American history is not the biggest strength of most Americans unfortunately but the real issue is if we were to honestly ask if we were to honestly ask most Church attending Christians I way over fizzed my fizzy water today I mean it kept overflowing it is wow anyway if we were to ask pretty much everybody attending church is coming Sunday about that Ugandan law I think 99 percent of people would go out to State I agree with Ted Cruz it's terrible and then if you were to say was living under God's law under Moses a horrific and wrong thing yeah you're right aggravated homosexuality um was it was that grotesque and an Abomination really poorly chosen terms there from Senator Cruz since that's the term used in Leviticus um 18 and 20. of that activity um what would they say then well that was then this is now okay so the nature of the law that defined sin so that there was a need for a propitiatory sacrifice on the cross of calvary that law is horrific wrong grotesque and Abomination is that right Christians really struggle when the law was first given you know there's a man that went out broke the Sabbath law he was stoned and modern sensibilities that live very very sheltered lives modern sensibilities go no no no no no no no no I'm not um I'm not going to accept that I I can't accept that I can't go there I can't do that um without realizing the disjunction that will eventually lead to you unhitching the Old Testament from the New Testament that's where it goes there's no way to avoid it that's been the process it's I just I can't believe that God would wipe out the amorites because the idea of the wrath of God against a horrifically sinful Nation like our own not like we've done anything worse than the amorites we have that's just not it's not there and that's why your doctrine of atonement amongst a large portion of Christians is weak sauce it's it's emotional it it isn't biblical that's why much of what Hebrews says is just lost on people because it's all based upon that levitical law that they don't even read anymore because they don't like it it doesn't fit my views that's that's where we are that's where we are and so it has been well said that there should be no problem passages in the Bible not that there are not passages that are difficult or take a lot of study to understand things like that but once you understand what it said it shouldn't be a problem anymore but that's not where the vast majority of Christians are that's where the majority of professing Christians do believe that they have the right to pass judgment on God's law and God's word and what God has done the past you know my God wouldn't do that well then your God is an idol your God Is You I wouldn't do that so my God wouldn't do that so I'm God that's pretty much how it functions so here's the situation where once again we have been given the opportunity to think through something to think it through well and when you saw this when you saw what Senator Cruz said um what was your thought what was your thinking what did you think at that point in time did you go he's missed something here or we've outgrown the Mosaic code there's a lot of Christians who believe that we've outgrown the Mosaic code because they recognize well you know it's been fulfilled okay everything is prophetic uh ceremonial that that marked and here's the big one that marked the people of Israel as they were being the people through Whom The Promise would come but you can't get away from the moral content of the Mosaic code and the fact that the apostles continued to believe that it was a fundamental standard you can't get away from that but people don't like it and we're not going to have a consistent response so let's we've thought about that okay have to think through does Uganda have the right to do this as a nation um then we we go to the Charlie Kirk thing now Charlie Kirk's based here in Phoenix I've never met the man I don't know anything about him um really don't it's based here in Phoenix and at this point we are we have to once again look at there are those who are saying we need the big tent we need the numbers um we need to have this movement to preserve the United States okay um and what's going to be the basis of that preservation what what United States is going to be preserved because what Charlie Kirk may or may not understand is the founding fathers would not have been sitting where he was sitting in that context they they would not have accepted the idea of the redefinition of marriage the profaning of marriage the profaning of sexuality the profaning of gender didn't buy any of that and so what we've done is we've created this um this way of thinking where it's like well we really appreciate the Big Ideas they had but you know we've we've come up with really better applications and better understandings and what we're saying is we have a higher moral plane than they did and what that means that moral plain no longer is based upon mankind as being made in the image of God and so we have a number of people who are saying well it's almost June and you just you just you just be ready and it is going to be worse than ever I was looking at an email from a company that I I do business with and oh my goodness the Pride stuff is unbelievable it it it's it is going to be at a level we've never seen it before and I talked about this last week and week before that um and there's deep Temptation you know but then I I look I look around and I go okay if I stop doing business with them who am I going to do business with they're all doing the same thing they're all doing the same thing and for all the same reasons anybody who stands up and says we're not going to do this is just going to get hammered they're they're they're going to be destroyed so what's the answer if if we call ourselves conservatives what are we conserving what what is there to conserve what what has value if the male female relationship if the family mother father the biggest problem in our country is that we think that any man and any woman of almost any age anymore can have sex just for the fun of it and that's the ultimate good there's no such thing as adultery anymore there's no such thing as fornication anymore those are good things and so what kind of political alliances can be produced when you can't answer the question what are we conserving and why is it a value so if you've got Charlie Kirk sitting next to a quote unquote gay Christian I'd love to talk to this fellow about why that is an oxymoron it doesn't work it's unbiblical we've addressed it a thousand times and I know that there are plenty of apostate progressivists out there that will Pat you on the back and say oh yeah you're right with Jesus don't worry about any of that bible stuff I know that's why they're there that's why they're doing what they're doing that's their whole function in this whole mess but I'm not interested in conserving that I can't be interested in conserving that there has to be a foundation there has to be a world view that makes sense that gives guidance to any kind of governmental system and that's the problem with Donald Trump he doesn't have that world view either I'm sorry all of you who are just massive you know you I see you driving down the road by the way that big old honk and drum flag really destroys your gas mileage I just thought I'd mention that to you in passing um you know it's like putting a sale behind I don't know what you're losing but you're it's it's a lot I hate he doesn't have it either in fact especially on this subject did you see the thing he had at Mar-A-Lago only a few months ago you know all the Log Cabin Republicans and all the rest of that stuff and what's her face here in in Arizona sorry just lost the name ran for governor should have won Carrie Lake was there yeah Carrie Lake was there Carrie Lake may end up still being the governor of Arizona the way things are going um some of the evidence that did you see the videos oh my gosh I mean if that doesn't get over to Move Along let's not talk that's right can't talk about that if that election doesn't get overturned no election will ever get overturned if you can have video of the people reprogramming the voting machines and it still doesn't get overturned it's done just don't even bother with elections it's it's over with I here in Maricopa County forget it forget it if those people don't end up in jail just just don't even I'm not gonna bother that there's there's no reason to anyway um Carrie Lake was there and he doesn't have this worldview um Ted Cruz doesn't have that worldview and I thought of all people he might but he doesn't he doesn't um what are we conserving that's the question that's the question um we are called to be faithful even in the midst of judgment and that's the big issue right now you got the the young wild-eyed Christian nationalists over on this side that are thinking that their um 5 000 people across the United States are going to rush in and and save everything um then you've got serious thinkers who are trying to say this is all going to come apart let's go fall apart excuse me it is going to crash and burn and something has to Rise From the Ashes now we know that the Chinese and the WF and The Who and BlackRock and they have a vision of what they want to see rising from the ashes but the problem is what they want to see requires the fundamental negation of God's creative decree it can't last there's a foundation it has to be the only foundation is pure Force and the Soviets managed that for 70 years and with technology they may double or triple that I could see that happening but it can't last it will come apart and what do you do then what do you do then that's the issue it was very disappointing to see that video and a lot of people being put in a position where they feel like they're between a rock and a hard place I get that but the fact is the only answer that we have is summed up far too simply but it is summed up in the phrase It's Christ or chaos and here's the chaos the chaos is all around us so what do we look for are we going to try to build a a lean to in the middle of the hurricane of Chaos no you got to have the solid foundation and conservatives don't unders people who are conservatives politically but not because of the lordship of Christ don't understand they look at us and go you don't get it we have to have the votes and we go votes don't change hearts what are you trying to conserve and um so anyway there's uh there's that all right uh wow it's 10 40. how'd that happen there's a really high chance I'm not gonna get through all this but we can drive I don't know who uh Joe heshmeyer is but he um wrote for Catholic answers last December and the white question what James White gets wrong about Jews in the Bible okay uh how did the believing Jewish person know that Isaiah and second chronicles or scripture 50 years for Christ that's the question that the prophet apologist James White asked of his then Catholic opponent Jerry matatix I'm really surprised they even used Jerry matatix in the uh even mention his name um then Catholic opponent Jerry matatix who of course was uh working at Catholic answers until was it 92 I forgot when he left might have been he may have still been there I think yes I think so even though they recommended Rich asked he was out by the time we debated him in in Denver was that 93 um but the weird thing is uh um it was Catholic answers that suggested Jerry for that debate because they were doing it babe there yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yeah yeah yeah I I know anyway in a 1993 radio debate and for the next 29 years he's repeat this question even dubbing it the white question after himself no my friend you are wrong uh Catholic answers gets I don't know why it is but you know when they did the the hit piece on my CRI article in the 90s just not accurate in their information I don't know why it is um you can take some guesses but anyway uh I did not dub at that at all I don't remember who it was it was on a it was either a uh interview that was being done with Saint Joseph's Catholic Communications or it was something Tim Staples did but I was listening because someone had said you need to listen to this and this was this was back I was using because that tape recording and you know what do you have a quick splash screen yeah I do could you just pop it up real real fast give me give me a second sure uh we'll be right back hold on all right sorry about that some things just can't wait I was listening on a cassette tape recording of one of those two sources it may have been a college fact now I think about it was a call-in show and it was the Roman Catholics that called it the white question and I heard it twice two different shows may have been two different people so I did not uh name it I did not name it after myself somebody else did and so there's that correction according to White Roman Catholics don't have an answer for it well I would agree that's the case because uh Jerry did not have an answer for it and in the weeks and months afterwards um one guy suggested that the only way was to use the urum and the thumbum the sacred dice is the second Chronicle scriptures you know that type of thing um the other answers were the Jewish magisterium which doesn't work because in fact that was the other thing I was gonna I knew I'd forgotten something I was gonna grab it but um hold it up because as has been demonstrated in the Old Testament can the New Testament Church which is a book that should have had like 14 footnotes in this article but was never mentioned once by Roger Beckwith as he demonstrated conclusively uh the Jewish magisterium did not accept what Rome has defined 1546 years after Christ um as the Canon of the Old Testament um so if that magisterium was infallible then the Roman magisterium is not for obvious reasons you can't have one contradicting the other and so the answers that have been offered simply have been self-contadictory because the recognition of Canon over time has been a messy process and there have been disagreements down through history and especially on the issue of the apocry books that new testament stuff not so much um really you you don't have that but of course new testament's a smaller smaller body of documents than the Old Testament is the new testament's written in a much shorter time period and there's a lot of differences in how the New Testament is transmitted of Old Testament but the fact is and here is here is the fact that was not dealt with in this article at all you had two traditions that can be easily traced in church history you have a tradition represented by someone like Augustine who accepts the canonical status of the Apocrypha books the deutero canonicals as they're called by Roman Catholics and does so basically upon the acceptance of the Septuagint as a whole and the form of the Septuagint that they experience that they the manuscripts that they had access to and then you have a tradition that is made up of the people that knew the most about the Old Testament and the Hebrew language there really is a distinction when you look at the people who actually learned Hebrew interacted with Jews learned Hebrew from Jews when you look at a malito of Sardis um when you when you look at Jerome they recognize that the Jews did not accept these books as scripture and since the Oracles of God were entrusted to the people of Israel Romans chapter 3. then that was definitive for them and this continues on this is represented by Pope Gregory the Great who plainly said that the book of Maccabees were not canonical this was the Pope in Rome all the way through to Cardinal Jimenez who interviewed Luther at the time of the Reformation who in his commentaries likewise said that the apocryphal books were not to be considered canonical scripture and primarily because he was representing Jerome's perspective so you have two parallel traditions the lesson formed and the more informed you come to the Council of Trent and the Trent is a and Trent is a reactionary Council it is reacting against the process of reformation and because of the incredibly weak references in Maccabees that are they're taken as being supportive purgator they're not they had idols on their bodies for crying out loud it was not it was not venial sin and mortal sin it's just amazing at how far you've got to stretch someone gave me a Stretch Armstrong I forgot to bring it in it's actually out in the kitchen someone while I was traveling gave me a Stretch Armstrong to use for for when you're stretching the truth uh but because of that a group of people and I would say 99.995 of the human race has no earthy idea who all the Bishops at Trent were or why they should all of a sudden be granted the final access to God's mind when it comes to scripture because if you're a Roman Catholic Trent dogmatically defined the Canon for you and you see the issue here is that especially back in the 90s especially back when I was debating gerrymatics on this subject I've told the story before but when Jerry and I had talked about the two subjects we're gonna do we decided to do justification and the Apocrypha and we started jokingly said wow I hope we can um I hope we can be heard over the snoring I think was the actual joke that was that was being we were bantering back and forth I hope we can we can hear over the the snoring uh when we when we do the Apocrypha debate that's not how it turned out the Apocrypha debate was considerably more contested and rare um is a description um then the justification of it was and when we got to the end I when I got to my final closing statement I I said I hope that what you understand you you've heard here this evening is Jerry's argument is the Apocrypha is scripture because we say so and we're right and you know when you think about it when you think about what Trent horn said in that post-debate thing that he did a few months ago after the soul scripture debate with Gavin ortlin that's basically what he said too this is the only thing that's worth debating is this subject because if we're right we're right there's no reason to debate um the Apocrypha we're right we're the church we tell you what to believe Soul Ecclesia it's solar Ecclesia versus solo scripture that's all it is and there is a sense in which when you're talking about ultimate authorities that's yeah that's what it boils down to but of course our perspective is God's revelation is true over history so um you know iframe gethal says is gonna say well the pope has always been the infallible Vicar of Christ you might be able to demonstrate that through history but you can you know you can't you know that flies in the face of everything that took place in church history um but you know I I keep reminding everybody when John Paul II was still alive he put out a a statement that was very clearly in in contradiction uh to what have been said by in Unum sanctum Long Long Ago by previous Pope obviously and when I point out the contrast it was Bobs and genus who said you don't have the right to interpret what the church has said in the past only the church has the right to interpret what the church has said in the past so it's a vicious circle but at least it it demonstrates and illustrates that it is just that we're right because we are right that's that's what it boils down to so the answer that is given and there's a bunch of stuff I could have looked you know there's it took the time to quote a number of things that I've written at various uh places it is interesting um number of quotes so I'm like they verbum they have speaking of scripture they have God as their author sounds like what Theo nustas means oh but but means life-giving not God breathed right just reminding you of a really in fact I don't even think the guy who wrote the article is a Catholic it still amazes me it still amazes me the trenhorn did that that he actually pulled out this weird article trying to argue that theaonistos that that Paul's argument is life-giving yeah scriptures are life-giving that's true but that's not that's not how it fits in the context SEC Timothy at all um and there have been some really wacky articles maybe he didn't run across the other article uh published about 10 years ago trying to come up with a completely different meaning for founding sauce there's been a bunch of them out there it's but wouldn't it be wonderful if the Roman Catholic Church would come out and infallibly Define these things but they won't they won't you would think after two thousand years we would have the infallible commentary you could just turn to it there it is won't do it um you know no more than six this is infallible Vulgate or all of the papal encyclicals that said capital punishment ordained by God but not anymore and let me just point something out to you again uh I really doubt and I said this before but I'll say it again look you know I I appreciate Roman Catholic apologetics will always be conservative because only conservatives have something to defend their progressives don't have anything to defend so they don't do apologetics but you look at the people your own Pope has put two Advocates of pro-choice positions on Vatican councils within the past six months have you been watching the people he's put on the papal biblical commission people your your apologetics are so much more conservative then your leadership is that it makes all of a sit back and go guys have you noticed look behind you see the people sawing the the lamb you're standing on they're your guys they're not our guys have you looked do you know what South American Roman Catholic theology is all about and and what if the next Pope and I've heard a lot of rumors about francis's health recently what what if the next Pope is one of the people one of his acolytes that he's put into position of cardinal uh what if you know he's packed that College what if they continue and there's more of these people and more of these people you have to change your beliefs because they're the ones to tell you what to believe you don't see that you don't have an objective foundation that's why I was really interested to see someone who was actually interacting with what Francis has done about the death penalty and about capital punishment saying he can't do that he can't do that this is the this is the constant teaching of the you just can't change Khan's teaching the church who gets to Define what the constant teaching the church is I can read daily verbum and I can read Unum Sanctum and I can go back to the context of Unum saying I can go back to the context of day verbum right can't we all no not if you're a Roman Catholic the context is irrelevant it means nothing if the modern Church says this is what they meant back then that's what they meant back then you have to accept that you gotta go there you're stuck with it so make a long story short here um the answer given by uh Joe heshmeyer is the census fidelium so how did the Jewish people know which books belong in their Bible because God revealed it not through another writing such as the Heavenly table of contents but a body the people of God that's great only one problem if he was actually interacting because he quotes from me a lot but what doesn't quote from is then the demonstration that the Jewish the people of God the Jewish people did not accept those books as scripture they recognized that they were that the bath coal had stopped this bath coal the voice of God had ceased the spirit of Prophecy had ceased with Malachi they recognize that and so they didn't view these books they didn't make the hands dirty they had not been laid up in the temple and all this is in the debates we did we did not so much in the first debate um but rather fully laid out in the debate with Gary Machuda which is still available so the answer given here is only for people who want to find an answer but don't want to have to think too deeply about it because it's really nice to say that but the fact is that the Canon defined by people you don't know and have no reason to believe had access to some Apostolic tradition 1546 years after the birth of Christ is different then the Canon that would have been recognized by the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in the New Testament and we can go through you know there's he inventions the argument here about the Sadducees there's really a lot of question about about that whether they had a two layer Cannon or just only the pentateuch and all the rest of that kind of stuff it even brings that particular argument up but when you look at the apostolic example what the apostles quote of scripture it's consistent with what the Jews as a group preserved as scripture and viewed as scripture had laid up in the temple prior to its destruction in 80 70. and prior to the birth of Jesus so this the answer is still not given because the answer is just a fancy way of saying the Jewish magisterium but the Jewish magisterium does not give you what Trent gave you you still have the same con contradiction and the point was back then the argument that was being made was without our infallible Canon you can't have scripture at all which means nobody had scripture until 1546. but then they got a different scription they would have had 50 years before Christ it doesn't work these claims of ultimate Authority that Rome makes they just don't work you push him far enough and they fall apart they fall apart so I appreciate the uh the argument um but the the reality is that you know and it's funny because and so we ought to the final paragraph and so we ought to look to the church not only for the proper 73 book Canon of scripture but also for the meaning of those books or in Jerome's words we ought to remain in that church which was founded by the apostles and continues to this day except Jerome recognized that those very books were not canonical they did not have the same value he thought they were valuable but he did not view them as scripture why quote him isn't that someone like um but um okay but then please notice what he says here not only for the proper Canon of scripture but also the meaning of those books that sounds like who defines what scripture is who defines what scripture means who defines what tradition is who defines what tradition means oh that's the church Sola Ecclesia no matter how hard they try to say no no no no no no no as soon as they make an argument they prove the point you believe in Solo Ecclesia the church is your final Authority but the problem is your church is changing your church is changing and has changed in the past so let's talk a little bit about debates um we're going a little bit over time but that's all right let's let's talk about debates um once again let me let me make sure everyone understands I I was coming back last week I left on Monday um some of you can drive for seven eight hours a day um I can do that like one day and then that's gonna be it for a while so you know it's the way we travel now it's the way it is uh just physically especially with the problems I now have with my left arm um if I do much more than three and a half four hours I'm gonna be in a world of hurt and unfortunately I designed the next trip before that happened so I'm gonna be doing a number of five or six hour days um and I'm not sure exactly how that's gonna work but anyway I'm coming back and I'm getting sick I started feeling something like on Tuesday night you know you wake up in the middle of the night you got that wonderful sore throat and it's like ah here it comes you it's just once you get to my age you recognize all the all the signs and have recognized them for years and years and years wait a whole lot of time for social media and I start seeing all this stuff there's some guy some guy became Roman Catholic and as normal what you notice is you know Roman Catholics celebrate conversion to a church Protestants convert Protestant celebrate conversion to Christ and then service in the church it's very different and some guy you know posted some picture of his conversion to Roman Catholicism blah blah um and somehow a conversation got started about debates and our dearly beloved algo uh decided to jump in with both feet both hands and um and keyboard and brother algo just got more than slightly uh overly excited and I'm I'm not even seeing most of this but stuff would come up because I got tagged in the thread and Trent horns in it and Jimmy Aiken's in it and I'm sitting here going what on Earth is going on I'm gonna I would have to sit down and this is one of the problems with this especially if you try to jump into something days later trying to find which thread something was set in somebody else say something you go where'd that come from I don't know it's because it's on a thread over here and then it came over them we've all experienced it and it's a bit on the frustrating side but I did have a guy really annoying guy uh come up to me in Salt Lake City I think both before and after the debate that Jeff and I did with the atheist and his whole thing was you've got to debate Jimmy Aiken and soul scriptura and I'm like okay how many times we debated Soul scripture so far I've lost I've lost track how many Souls from tour debates we've done but what about the other topics that are right there front and center right now that are relevant to the issues now you have a pope and I'm old enough to know that his his theology his practice is not the practice of John Paul II okay um I mean I I don't remember Vatican II but um um a lot of things be a changing and it seems like you all don't want to talk about them and you don't want to deal with that issue so I you know I I was like dude we're here debating atheists why don't you go away anyway uh so I'm starting seeing all this stuff and well debate this subject today that there's only one person well there's two people I would I would allow Rich to do this but if it's if I'm not the one talking about it then that's not representing me and arranging debates today is a lot different than it used to be I don't like all this stuff where debates are being done on a week's notice maybe because I'm just stupid and slow but I spent six months preparing for my debate with uh Bart Ehrman uh James price John Dominic hawson hundreds of hours and hopefully that's made those debates have much longer lasting value than the let's do a debate on my video cam in my basement with the fan going in the background type stuff that has now become rather prevalent I could certainly see the possibility of some narrow topic debates that could be done electronically I prefer in-person debating um I think it's more coherent I think it's more personable but these days doesn't have to be that way and we're certainly getting to the point where um I would like to have a debate um on the road in my in my studio I think that'd be great uh I think it's perfectly doable it could be a little bit on the challenging side you've got technical stuff you're doing at the same time you're trying to concentrate in that could throw throw you off but I I certainly think that it would be it would be a doable thing uh I think again if what Trent horn said is now the Catholic answers position that this is the only topic that we're going to debate um Solo scriptura or then he says Apostolic succession now that's fascinating because that's not the Roman Catholic position yes it is okay all right I I know you believe in whatever you call Apostolic succession the east north ox have their view the anglicans have their view for crying out loud but that's not the ultimate Authority claim of the Roman Catholic Church oh but it's important but it's not the ultimate claim all you have to do is look at the history of conciliarism all you have to do is to recognize um that there is a fundamentally definitional aspect of the authority of the bishop of Rome as the personal successor of Peter that transcends any concept of apostolic succession and defines the specific claims of Rome over against something as like Eastern Orthodox because Eastern Orthodoxy has its own doctrine of apostolic succession so it sounds like well you know we recognize that if we're taking the negative against the other sides positive about scripture being the sole infallible rule of faith yeah we do sort of have to defend our side even though it's not been something they've done a lot so we'll defend something more generic that I don't think that ever would have been suggested in the 1990s as long as John Paul II was right alive I don't think this conversation would have would have taken place I really really don't um and I find that fascinating I think it's I think it is really really interesting but I did see and I'm not sure if it's yeah no it disappeared um there was a point I thought I could be wrong about this because I can't pull it up now um Twitter keeps you know how it changes ah hey I found it look at that it is Jimmy Aiken as long as Jimmy Aiken 3000 is Jimmy Aiken 3000. uh if one has a solo scriptura perspective yes that would be the question and the answer is yes it does well what's that in response to Anna Maria Perez had said okay here was um okay here okay 23 hours is that 23 hours from now ago I who knows Trent Harmon said James I have said countless time times I imagine I'm happy to debate major issues with you so let's go up to her Apostolic succession with mutually agreed upon definition do Marion dogma's contradict scripture I'm even open to can Christians believe in purgatory what would be your exact Francis resolution okay that's useful and then Jimmy Aiken had said okay Anna Maria Perez had said can Christians believe in purgatory Christians can believe in leprechauns of Taiwan the question is moot the question should be does the Bible support purgatory now that was I agree with Anna Marie Maria on that um and that was my first thought when I when I saw Trent Horn's tweet is not can Christians believe in purgatory but um did the apostles teach purgatory or is Purgatory uh consistent with Apostolic teaching in scripture or something along those lines um and then Jimmy Aiken said if one has a solo scriptural perspective yes that would be the question that is does the Bible support purgatory and the answer is yes it does now that really surprises well okay it does surprise me I know that Trent Horan and Jimmy Aiken both believe in purgatory but didn't hasn't that already did we already demonstrate that there are some really fundamental problems here or are you all admitting that the debates we've done in the past your side lost um because um the Long Island debate on that subject with the editor of the Catholic answer was really clear okay I think that was really obvious and I think the debate with with uh Tim Staples was very clear as well uh very straightforward so are you saying you all have a better presentation to make okay you have to have a better presentation to make than was made in the first debate because when you talk about Jimmy Swaggart okay that was yeah okay that was bad but Tim Staples we got a better presentation to make than that I'd love to hear it um that one most definitely um Marion dogmas is Trent Horton actually saying that you would defend the bodily assumption Mary the Immaculate Conception Perpetual virginity not all at the same time we did that once it's doesn't it would be I'm just sitting here spitballing but it it would be interesting to do those dogmas um maybe electronically in other words online um I could see value in that I could see value in that and one of the main reasons being that the recording that we did with Jerry and of course from your perspective I don't know what you'd say about Jerry anymore I'll okay I I don't know I I haven't asked where you'd if you'd even want to mention his name but anyway uh is that what you're saying you'd be willing to do that and uh can Christians believe in purgatory that's obviously um Anna Maria Perez was right I wouldn't debate that one for a second because Christians believe in a lot of silly stuff but did the apostles teach Purgatory is Purgatory contradictory to the apostolic testimony things like that uh you bet I think that's that's right up there but what would be your exact Francis resolution that has been the problem since the beginning I forget now because we had we had an agreement with um Tim Staples to debate in Sydney Australia I think that was 2018. might have been 2019 but I think it was 2018. I think it was a trip before the last trip I took to Australia and it was going to be on the papacy it was going to be on something related to Francis and I can't remember now what the exact wording was but I think that was also why it got canceled um because and here's part of the reason here's part of the problem whether you want to accept this part or not my assertion is that doctrines such as papal infallibility are utterly worthless doctrines they're utterly worthless doctrines and what do I mean by that um they don't mean anything the pope is infallible unless he's not so honorius was a heretic but he didn't invalidly teach it even though for 400 years his successors had to anathematize him as a heretic when they became Pope for not having officially taught heresy it just it's it's historically laughable and in my debates with Tim Staples and Robertson Genesis they took polar opposite positions on that subject and so it just it just seems utterly ridiculous I just realized this shot you have right now uh has Martin Luther's have him looking at the camera well the funny thing is you know so now okay because we've got this this little guy too and he's he's lost his home he used to be up in the corner um and we've got Tribbles over here and all sorts of stuff so yeah um we'll we'll figure all this stuff out eventually but I just looked up there and saw that I was like oh that's that's interesting so why not if you're gonna have that there yeah okay what were we talking about I don't remember so Moses was in the bull rushes and uh yeah um we were talking about uh doing eight topics here um the the problem is how to ask the question why is it Trent Jimmy that you know that your relationship to the papacy today is different than it was 20 years ago with John Paul II John Paul II has decried sheep stealing trying to convert people from other Christian churches I'm sorry Francis said that not John Paul II um if I said John Paul I met Francis um John Paul II would never win a question about homosexuality was would never have said who am I to judge um I don't I don't know how anyone who claims to be any kind of Bishop in the Church of Christ could make that kind of statement given what we see going on today I would I would wonder what you all think about capital punishment in light of the change the Catholic catechism because you know how pretty easy it would be to historically demonstrate the consistency of Rome's view on that subject for centuries on end and practice on that subject for centuries on end I wonder how that fits in as well so I have the the I would love to see um a means of doing both digital as well as in-person stuff but it has to be scheduled way out um because I schedule everything way out because the way I travel now and you can't complain about that Jimmy cannot complain about that because Jimmy would not fly for decades and he knows Chris arnson will tell you how many times Chris arnson contacted Jimmy Aiken to be a part of the great debate series on Long Island and Jimmy Aiken doesn't like to fly it's not that I don't like to fly I flew 165 000 miles in 2019 alone I have like 760 000 miles um toward my million mile thing which I'll never get to on uh American Airlines it's not that's not what the issue is the issue is very different now um but putting together that kind of in-person debate requires some kind of financial backing and it requires a context where a conference is already going to be being taken place so you can provide the funds and stuff um I have a thought for one in an in an area where Roman Catholicism is very prevalent and hence um would probably be we'd get support from both sides let's put that way and hence might be able to split those costs and things like that um that I want to try to pursue but we also might want to try a focused uh electronic debate um maybe I'm just one of the Marion dogmas um and see if we couldn't do that either in this studio the big Studio um however you all would work that out um Rich would have to be involved as far as you know I don't know what technology Catholic answers uses to do remotes and things like that but as you all know who have done those things you've got to jump through a lot of Hoops make that happen I think that's great because if I'm reading this tweet correctly this sounds different than what was said on the post debate conversation okay um all right that sounds good to me but it's not what you was said before and that's where the where the problem lies um but definitely the Purgatory thing um definitely uh the Marion dog was um and I would like to know why you believe that well I see the things that Francis says that give you an idea of what he believes are not the things that are official so how do you gain how do you gain insight into the infallible Vicar of Christ's guidance if what he says and teaches if what he prays if what he he says to the young boy about his atheist father well that's not official so honorius's letter to sergius was but what you say in public isn't what good is Francis what good is he does his alteration of the Catholic catechism amount to an official teaching why would a Catholic and I and because I can guarantee you I could find plenty who would say this why would a Catholic who takes francis's alteration of the catechism as official teaching the church why would they be wrong are they wrong is that the official teaching the church has the official teaching of the church changed is that a is that a debatable issue those are some of the questions um that I think need to be that would be useful to be addressed because anymore when when Jerry matatix called our office in I don't know was it June July of 1990. the reasons for debating and the context of debating were very different than they are today I'm not just talking about pre-covered post coven John Paul II versus Francis uh electronic medium um now more than ever back then we just want to have a voice we just wanted to be heard in what we had to say now the issue is when we speak and when we invest the time because I will invest time and preparation what we produce needs to be worthwhile after we're gone that's what's important for me that's what's important for me so alrighty I hope that addressed some of those things um I'll go we love you but you gotta cool you Jets sometimes you run ahead and I'm not 30 anymore um so chill dude relax take a deep breath uh and uh we'll we'll go from there so thanks for watching the program today hope it was useful to you we'll see you next time God bless foreign [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Alpha & Omega Ministries

Views: 14,230

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Id: kIFeHrcmzdU

Length: 92min 7sec (5527 seconds)

Published: Tue May 30 2023