Werner Herzog vs Piers Morgan | On Putin, Hollywood Cancel Culture And More

[Music] he's a filmmaker an actor a poet an author a philosopher an opera director and frankly a living legend verer herzog's documentaries span the collapse of the Soviet Union I am a German and the first German that you probably met wanted to kill you in the aftermath of the Gulf War and the secret trauma of penguins is there such thing as Insanity among Penguins could they just go crazy because they've had enough of their colony you name it Vera Herzog has been involved with it most recently he starred in the Mandalorian I see nothing but death and Chaos I would like to see the baby have you changed your mind about Putin I'm still uh against the demonization of a whole country of a whole people you ate your shoe after losing a bet with a friend is that true I cooked it in duck fat uh in a famous restaurant I swallowed down uh all the fragments with a sixpack of beer you stabbed your own brother in a fight over a pet hamster I wanted to learn what discipline meant you apparently have a hobby of hypnotizing chicken it's not a hobby but I have actually hypnotized actors are you in the Barbie camp or the Oppenheimer Camp as an audience you can witness sheer hell and now Verner HS something he's un sens it ver great to have you on the program thank you for having me so my middle boy is an actor doing very nicely in his mid 20s and I told him today I was interviewing you and he almost exploded with excitement and he began rattling off all the things that he loves about you your body of work what you stand for but but most importantly I think your personality and your character who you are and how important you are to the film business generally are you are you aware of this huge uh burden of a claim that you must carry with you everywhere you go in your industry let's not speak about a claim uh I'm always very suspicious touch it only with a pair of pliers but I can see that there's resonance I see it uh in the um kind of mails that I get nowadays it is uh the 15 16 years old who reach out for me uh to me and uh significant in this context is that much of what I have done in terms of films is available now online right you can find a film I made 50 years ago you which never will play in a theater in Missoula Montana you have to wait a year 20 years until it may play and all of a sudden there's access and of course the books that I wrote uh are accessible and uh you can see me in some uh acting roles like Jack richo Mandalorian by the way I'm only good when I play the villain a real bad you've got a great villain face if you don't mind me saying I mean you're a natural villain okay you should have been a James Bond's baddy Vernon you'd be perfect I I thought so yes I I believe I would be good if you had you know five six hours to live and I don't expect this to be happening anytime soon which of all the films that you've been involved in would you want to watch again and which of all the films in history would you want to watch again oh that's a difficult question you see uh don't ask a mother which one of your children would you like to see again uh basically all of them but uh of the more recent ones I would say Bad Lieutenant Port of Call New Orleans because it's sheer fun this kind of joy of film making that you sense in it and of course in all my films you sense this immense Joy of Storytelling the joy of film making the joy of passing something on to an audience to interact with an audience so um I could give you basically the list of all my films which is let me phras it a different let me phrase it a different way about your films which is the one that you would be proudest of the people should watch which most personified your art oh for God's sake no don't don't ask me we should we should leave it to the audience we have to leave it to the audience they have an autonomy they have their own desires and you see uh if I know my audience uh is among uh let's say prisoners uh in a federal prison in the United States show them even dwarves started small that's where they go wild for and I'm saying that because I showed the film to uh uh to to prisoners and if you want to show a film to very young people uh show them Grizzly Man or a the wrath of God or something where you can tell U I try to be a good soldier of Cinema and uh and for that see for example Fitz coraldo moving a ship over a m a mountain means uh you have to do still to do the doable people think yeah I do the impossible which is not true I do the doable and U to encourage young people to do the doable dream big uh but do the doable I think it's a great message and I'm going to spare you any more Inquisition about your films but I'm not going to spare you on the second part which was if you knew you had a short time left which is the greatest film ever made uh there's no such thing but I can give you a hint for example uh a Bengal filmmaker in the 1950s satisha who made the so-called upu trilogy a boy uh growing up in rural India in a village uh completely foreign to us and yet so human that we identify completely it's of Staggering Beauty and of Staggering um closeness to us so it's an ingenious filmmaker Bengal or for example Rashon by kurava uh also made in the mid-50s uh it's just phenomenal and and I'm I can't even learn from films like that because they're so great there's always a mystery uh that enshrouds them what do you feel and I think I know a part of your answer to this because I've read interviews where you've talked about this but the really interesting phenomenon of cancel culture which I generally despise but particularly in movies in art generally you know you made some iconic films with thisy by Claus kinsky who was known as you know the most despicable human being to ever grace Hollywood stages um but there were some great films in there some great art that you made together you made an incredible documentary about him obviously he was an extraordinary one-off character who a lot of people really hated but then after he died his daughter uh came out and and said that he had for years abused and and raped her and many people say well in that case he should be cancelled and everything he was involved in should be expunged which would of course include a lot of your films how do you feel about that well of course it's a very serious question and I have uh struggled with it uh of course uh I heard about all this and I heard through his daughter herself uh about the abuses only after he had died and I must say I absolutely believe her because there were doubts in some media absolutely believe her so he he did monstrous things uh but I tried to separate the person the Monstrous person who uh did extraordinary things and the question I could answer it with two more questions to you yeah and and to those who are into cancel culture would you uh remove every single painting of the painter kavaj from museums and churches because kavaj was a murderer do you have to remove all his work uh from everywhere secondly second question what do you do about the Old Testament about the book uh of Moses uh and I'm saying that because Moses committed manslaughter actually when you read the Bible it was it's we call it manslaughter but it was more a prediet uh sort of first deegree murder when you read about it do you dismiss do you have to dismiss the Old Testament because Moses committed mans Slaughter well it's a it's a very interesting question you know Harvey Weinstein has been jailed for very serious sex crimes and yet he's I think the most Oscar nominated person for his movies there's ever been do you remove all those films I think it's a really interesting debate about where you draw that line and I think it also runs to the this the kind of hypocrisy and deceit at the heart of council culture it really depends the people driving it it really depends who you're talking about there's no consistency to it it's not there's no one set of rules it's pretty much who they just decide they don't like yeah yeah of course uh let's not set the rules we are not God almighty sets the rules however cancel culture as much as I dislike elements of it it has change the climate on movie sets in a good way is something that you can in a good way yes I think uh women are much more respected um the tone has changed I mean you don't have to look at my sets my you see in my films I had stars and great ones uh Nicole Kidman for example and I said to her and it's remarkable that you we come up with that I said to her on my set there is no stars there are no stars however everyone in front of my camera is royalty and I treat everyone like royalty and I have done it all my life royalty and it goes all the way to the minor Parts even the extras in the background their royalty because I show them on a screen that has um and I have recorded them with my camera and that's a it's it's an attitude that should Prevail much more on movie sets if if the uh behavior and regulation of that behavior on sets is much better which is a good thing and I would agree with you about that what about the kind of um you know people would describe it as a kind of woke attack on Hollywood where everything has to tick A diversity quota box or you have you know Snow White the Seven Dwarves you can't actually use dwarf actors who then got angry understand it it's like this is these are Plum jobs for them what do you feel about that debate yeah sure of course it uh it has its excesses and when you look at uh um Productions in Hollywood now if you have for example a scene where the leading character the young lovers have to kiss each other you you have to engage an intimacy consultant I mean I think they're called intimacy coordinator what does that mean I don't can't even imagine yes okay so those are the excesses and those are the stupidities uh much of it comes uh basically down to earth what what is decent human behavior and I was NE never confronted uh with this question because in all my films that I have made that there's not a single sex scene and there's not a I think only once or twice in films of my of mine uh a couple is kissing but fleetingly really so I've never been in really yes and and I I have been asked about that uh and I don't have a real answer I think on a screen there's a certain dis ression I don't like that when when a screen in the movies or on your TV or wherever uh becomes too indiscret where boundaries of humanness are somehow transgressed and uh for if if you really want to see a sex scene just uh watch porno films but do you feel on a wider point that um Hollywood is going down a a a perilous route when it tries to you know tick too many diversity boxes before it even makes a movie or do you think that is a healthy progression well I'm not the judge of Hollywood and I'm not the judge of other filmmakers but uh of course excesses are visible and the Pendulum will swing back and it will it will settle in in a in a much more healthy way than we see it right now don't worry too much about it it's it's very ephemeral uh the general tendency is right and excesses forget about them uh they will be the laughing stock of tomorrow do you consider yourself to be a Hollywood director or does that phrase send a shiver down your spine um no not really um I've always worked outside of the film industry um although I live in Los Angeles and I'm here sitting in a van on Mal Holland Drive right next to me is M Holland Drive um but I moved here because I fell in love and that was 30 years ago and I do not regret a single moment I've I've been one of those lucky men one of those Lucky Bastards who found a wonderful woman and because because of her I moved to the United States and because of her I moved to Los Angeles I did not move to Hollywood I moved to Los Angeles and it's wonderful I do not regret a moment and Los Angeles is a great great City where very important things are being done things that uh determine the the trends and the engagements and the ideas and the practicalities of uh of the human race right now the internet was born here uh reusable Rockets are being constructed and built within the perimeter of the city um so it's it's incredible what is happening here yeah it's a great City I have I have a house in Los Angeles myself I go there all the time I think it's a great City and Hollywood is a is a world within a world really there so I I I completely get that um I think it was this is should not underrate it so Sor we should not underrate it because the collective dreams of the world are are being uh fabricated here yes there's nothing wrong about it well what some people say cup of tea people like Martin scolesi would say that comic book Blockbusters are not real Cinema and that they're beginning to overd dominate Hollywood's output we not seeing anywhere near the volume of of traditional great films would you agree yes I do agree uh he uh and and he has enough work behind him to have the authority to say such a thing you see it's easy to um to nag and nag around and say uh uh the film industry uh has become uh somehow narrowed down to uh to Comics or whatever but he has the authority to say that and I see it in a similar way however we should not underestimate uh the power of fantasies the power of comic books there's something uh inherent in them that has uh to do with our Collective uh fantasies with our dreams our aspirations so don't uh don't dismiss it completely it's not what I do and it's it's fine it's fine let them do it they do it better than I would do it I get it um you wrote a biography last year Ray of reviews for this every man for himself and God against all um and in it you talked very uh movingly you know your father was a Nazi and later became a prisoner of war yeah that in itself that one fact in your biography is such a standout fact how big an impact has that had on your life do you think uh it didn't have that much an impact uh because I had knew my father I grew up without the presence of my father because my parents separated divorced uh when I was uh very very young so I don't even remember those times and I hardly had any chance or time or meetings encounters with him to discuss it with him however I discussed it with my mother who also was a Nazi uh but she uh fairly soon sober but and she saw this was this was leading Germany into into destruction it was not good anymore and uh and uh she um became um somebody who focused completely uh from politics uh and grandio dreams of a German Empire away to to a private person who had to rais these three boys uh all alone and um of course uh I'm somebody in a generation that's not unique because almost everyone at the time of the third re was Nazi yes you see it in the approval rates you see it in the ballots you see it in the results you see it in the approval for Hitler it's uh it's staggering and and because of that because of that a bigger question has always moved me how does it come that a country as civilized with great poets mathematicians all the great composers of philosophers within the span of a very few years lapses into sheer barbarism how is that possible and because of that I set out right after I finished high school when was 17 or 18 I set out because I wanted to go to Africa Congo the Congo was in deep crisis at that time um after its independence and there was tribal Warfare and Chaos collapse of all civil order of everything and I I try to see it what how do institutions collapse how does a sense of a civil State Disappear Completely of course in the Congo it was a Devastation of the colonialism it's completely different a completely different background but I I got curious and uh I set out and never made it across the border into the Congo because in Juba which is today southern Sudan not very far from Eastern congales provinces I fell very ill almost died made it back uh and uh and was very very ill so that was one of the times where I almost died uh but it was worthwhile I was curious I wanted to know a bigger question that uh had to do with Germany and the collapse of um of civilization what did you conclude verer I mean when you really thought about it did you come up with any explanation for how this could have happened to a great country like Germany yeah I still do not have it I'm still wrestling with it I do only have very partial answers uh but we wouldn't have the time to discuss it we need 48 hours for that but I do only have partial answers and it's very very hard for me to Fathom to Fathom it uh but of course uh something has become very solid inside of me be vigilant you have have to be vigilant and you have to stem the tides very early on the tides of Destruction when you see tides of uh of barbarism you have to stem it early early early on when you see um that one of the consequences of the Israel Hamas War has been a surge in anti-Semitism around the world for many Jewish people they feel very the worst that's the worst of all yeah that's the worst first you see you may see it from various angles um pro-israel Pro Palestine what whatever your opinion is whatever your perspective is there's one single thing that must never ever be the result and that's anti-Semitism and that's a lesson from German his German's history anti-Semitism that's that's the the threshold where where you have to stop right right there and do something about it yes you famously were the last person to interview Mikel gorbachov before his death a remarkable film called meeting gorbachov um you've spoken in the past about the demonization of Russia being a mistake that there's been too much animosity towards Russia from the West um as your opinion changed now given the Ukraine war the ACT activities of Vladimir Putin what happened to Alexi Nali and other protesters have you changed your mind about Putin and about whether the you know animosity towards him is in fact Justified yeah not not about demonization of a whole country it's not only Russia now there is a tendency starting to demonize China it is not healthy it is not good it's not an attitude uh uh for uh a world order that should not start with demonization of very large populations and leads to conflicts that are avoidable should we not be should we not be demonizing leaders like Vladimir Putin I mean you know by that context you could say well you shouldn't you know we shouldn't have demonized Adolf Hitler or whatever some people through their actions don't they just deserve proper demonization because they warrant it with their actions no not demon not not demonization uh uh I would say um uh there there are courts of law that is a better instrument there should be instruments in there are instruments what if they ignore the law like P so well uh that is what history is uh is all about uh sometimes political acts are outside of Law and we know that and we see it and and if you start to to demonize a certain person uh well I'm not I'm really not for Putin I'm not um I'm not for war in general and I think the war in the Ukraine was avoidable it was avoidable and we have to look what what happened what was wrong and when you mentioned gatof yes gatov was quite bitter so many missed opportunities he himself self upon his order his signature moved um 400,000 Russian troops out of Poland and 5,000 tanks and there was no reciprocity from the West a Miss opportunity and I do remember for example in the early 2000s uh Vladimir Putin invited by the German bundist talk delivering a speech and and speaking about the common European house from the urals to the Atlantic and uh then a few years later applying Russia applying for NATO membership which would have taken uh let's say the the conflicts out Russia would have been embedded uh in a construct of security so there were many many missed opportunities and in principle you can look at my face in principle I'm against war against any War there's something terrifying about it and whatever we can do to avoid a war we should do but Wars very often start with a climate of demonization there was some of it was not necessary but sometimes as we discovered in World War II leaders become so despotic over time that the only recourse for the rest of the world is to deal with it otherwise you can end up in a a hellish situation yeah yeah but I'm not really a politician I wish I I had much more knowledge I follow what is happening so I'm I'm well informed and I form my own opinion and I very careful and particularly careful with the media we are on media right now but I'm very very cautious and I have learned in important in really important things uh to look into parallel uh informations uh BBC um gives us a certain perspective of things but uh in important things I would immediately uh try to figure out what does Al jazer say about the same thing I agree with you what is the Chinese what are the Chinese saying uh on the internet you can find the full speech of let's say the Chinese president yes and you better read the full speech and you know where where China is standing and not this kind of uh uh this kind of uh propagandizing your perspective yes I think it's very important to to do that I completely agree with you um ver I wanted to to end it's been a fascinating conversation I could talk talked to you for a lot longer but on to there are so many great stories about you but no one's quite sure where fact begins and ends and where fiction begins and ends with stories about you so I wanted to go through a little list we compiled just to clarify for the record whether these are true so uh let's start with a classic one that you ate your shoe after losing a bet with a friend is that true uh yes and it was filmed uh by Les Blan a documentary filmmaker wner herzo eats his shoe I did but it was not so it was to encourage Errol Morris who was a nobody who's made his first film I encouraged him you finish this first film and I want to see it and when I see it I eat my shoes what did it taste what did it taste like I don't remember because I cooked it in Duck f fat uh in a famous restaurant and because I thought duck fat would have much higher temperatures yes it does before it boils but the leather shrinks and it became tougher and tougher I had to cut it in little fragments with a pair of poultry shares and swallow it down with a I I swallowed down all the fragments with a sixpack of beer so I was completely drunk after it so I don't recall how it tasted but you can eat your belt you can eat your shoes ladies can eat her Le their leather handbags it's okay you can digest it easily that's a fantastic story um I know this one's true but I just still find it startling you stabbed your own brother in a fight over a pet hamster uh yes correct it's embarrassing but it's correct and I wanted to mention it in my Memoirs because uh I wanted to give hints about um the formation of my own character how because of a catastrophe that I um that I created I had to learn immediately I had to to learn what discipline meant also says it you have a hobby of hypnotizing by the way can I can I say yes can I say one thing uh in in my Memoirs yes of course because I have uh in my films I have sometimes departed from Facts but in order to reach a deeper truth but in my memo fact checking took more time than writing really uh the the entire book and my my brothers my siblings read it and confirmed or or asked me to modify certain things took more time more time than writing it well you know it's very interesting I interrupted you well they always say if you like if you take a a car accident and you ask 10 Witnesses a week later to recount what they saw they'll all give slightly different versions that's just the nature of of human memory I think um you apparently have a hobby of hypnotizing chickens is that true um it's not a hobby but you I think anyone can hypnotize a a chicken I have actually hypnotized actors for one film a Heart of Glass where a village community lapses into some sort of a uh some numistic State sleep walking into a disaster that is prophesized and foreseen uh and and I wanted to create a state of sism in the film I I actually ended up hypnotizing the actors I could actually hypnotize an audience via a screen it's not as effective it it it is possible I will I will not do it it is possible and I've tested it hypnotizing a chicken is hypnotizing a chicken you take the chicken's Peak uh on the ground and then you draw with a piece of chalk you draw a quick line away from its beak wow and it uh it will be stay hypnotized fascinating while um I've heard of method acting but never method directing like this you once climbed into a live volcano so you could film it close up is that true uh yes uh and you can see the images uh and uh the um title page of the cover photo uh of my Memoirs every man for himself in G against all is a moment where I just climbed out uh in a some sort of a suit protective suit uh it looks like a space suit a little bit um and I was down at the very CR with volcanologist the famous British volcanologist cve Oppenheimer who teaches at Cambridge University and we approached it and for a fortnite it was fairly regular and quiet and all of a sudden uh something big happened and uh slabs of molten lava were raining down so we better fled uh yes I was very close in one case too close a little too close is it true you don't have or use a mobile phone a cell phone I still do not have one but I I do it not for nostalgic reasons I I've thought a lot about it uh I want to derive all my knowledge of the world and of reality in a more direct way not through applications on a cell phone and I do not want to be reachable all the time so um I do not use it until today very very wise idea uh apparently you volunteered to Elon Musk that you'd like to be one of the guinea pigs to colonize Mars no wrong and I that's a distortion in the media I have a conversation on camera in my film about the internet low and behold reveries of the connected world and I have an interview with with Elon Musk and we speak about the colonization of Mars and I think it's a bad idea it should not happen we should rather look after the habitability of our planet and not create a habitat which is almost impossible on Mars the colonization of Mars with a million people is a pipe dream it's an illusion and don't listen to anyone who postulates it including musk and he's intelligent enough to know he's intelligent enough to know that this is not going to happen but we spoke about traveling and he wants to send a a probe onto Mars I said I'd like to be on it I'd volunteer with a camera but sent me back a week later I would send a daily report down to to us a poem and the in the film clip from Mars wonderful it's my dream and I actually I seriously applied to the project of a Japanese billionaire who invites eight uh people from around the world you have to apply um and I applied uh but I was not accepted oh what a shame You' bef I'm still serious about it um you've come very close to death many times you were shot in the abdomen by an air rifle during an interview in Los Angeles you an Allied bomb hit your home in Munich you fell down a crevice on K2 the mountain fell under the hoes of a Bull in Mexico and in a giant wave in Peru do you feel lucky to be alive Vera how can I say sure of course I enjoy to be around in the about and to breathe and to uh write a poem and uh see the rain it's raining in Los Angeles it's wonderful so they can't get any better and um brush with uh death yes it has happened because I had a pretty wild life uh I had uh wild encounters I have been in many countries in many dangerous situations yes but I I've never Shi away from entering a danger zone if it was necessary for a movie for or for insight I'm not I'm not into uh uh trying to be a stunt man and explore my my boundaries I'm not into that business but as a natural concomitant with the kind of a very very intense and wild life I've had my brushes and sometimes lucky coincidence uh I was booked on a plane in Peru that crashed uh and I tried very very hard to be on that plane wow and I made a film about the Soul Survivor uh later on wings of Hope right a young a young teenage girl who survived it and I was basically on the same plane and was taken it it's a complicated story but I was not on the plane and if your if your luck was to ever run out verer how would you like to be remembered what would you like your legacy to be oh I don't care because I won't be around anymore I don't care about Legacy but uh how shall I say while I'm around while I'm still around um I'm trying I'm still trying something I've always tried be a good soldier of Cinema well you you're one of the great soldiers in cinema history it's been an absolute joy to talk to you honestly you're fascinating um and you're a great filmmaker even if you won't want me to say that and I know you're very modest with it which is a great quality to have um I just want to end you on on a one final question because it's the big question with the Oscars coming up are you in the Barbie camp or the Oppenheimer Camp I have not seen Oppenheimer yet but I will do it Barbie I managed to see the first half hour and I was curious and I I wanted to watch it because I was curious and I still don't have an answer but I have a suspicion could it be that the world of Barbie is sheer hell and for a for a movie ticket as an audience you can witness sheer hell yes as close as it gets yes so I don't know yet ver I I give me give me a moment to watch the whole thing trust me I have to watch the whole thing first yeah let me spare you the horror I watch the whole thing and it is hell I completely concur with your assessment after half an hour and I would definitely recommend you don't put yourself through the rest of it Vera hero what a pleasure thank you very much indeed for being on unsensitive I enjoyed it very nice to talk to you take care

Channel: Piers Morgan Uncensored

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Id: Z6vIh1_PXyI

Length: 40min 53sec (2453 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 23 2024