We try not to use the word unprecedented on
this show when talking about the 45th president, But here we are. For the first time in American
history. A former president who was once again his party's presumptive nominee, has been
found guilty in a felony criminal trial. Well, the next president of the
United States of America be a person convicted of hiding hush money
payments to a porn star. Will the Republican nominee for president
go to prison? And will any of this even matter? Come November. Next. Good evening and
welcome to Washington Week. Donald Trump is in a convicted felon yet
sorry to be pedantic here, but he technically acquires that
status only at sentencing come July 11th. But a New York jury has spoken,
finding him guilty of engaging in a financial scheme to keep the
porn star Stormy Daniels quiet about their sexual encounter, one
that occurred shortly after Trump's wife gave birth to their son Trump,
in in addition to this guilty verdict was recently found liable
for sexual abuse in a civil case. In total, more than 25 women have
accused him of sexual assault and sexual harassment. The reaction
of the Republican Party leaders to the verdict was to rally around
Trump evangelical leaders, including Franklin Graham also doubled down
on their support. Graham writing on X said. What we saw today has
never happened before, and I think for the majority of Americans,
it raises questions about whether our legal system can be trusted.
Joining me tonight to discuss the fallout and the consequences of
this historic verdict. Peter Baker, the chief White House reporter for
The New York Times. Ashley Parker, senior national political
correspondent for The Washington Post. Asma Khalid, White House correspondent
for N PR and My Colleague and Staff writer at the Atlantic.
McKay Coppins. Thank you all for joining me. It's the been the sort
of week that you never would have imagined earlier in your journalism
careers. You never. You never see. But here we are, Um, uh, Peter
without using the word unprecedented. We've talked about this in the
past, right. You can't do it. He's incapable. No, no, no, no, it's
it's hard. It's hard not to This is never. We've never had this
before. But without trying to not use the word unprecedented. Describe
the meaning of the events of the past couple of days. Uh, you
know, when do you think history is kind of getting a little tired
at this point, Like we keep making so much of it in these last five
years, it's almost become normalized, and that's the thing right. We
have it. We have almost forgotten how extraordinary this is because
we move immediately from the notion that a president a former president
states has been convicted on 34 felonies. Two. The next question
is what Mean for his campaign. How about fundraising and look at
these, uh, statements of support from his backers? And what is the
President? President Biden saying about it. We don't stop and take a breath and say Wow. This is extraordinary. Now,
for many people, not probably a majority. Sorry, Reverend Graham.
But for maybe will raise questions about the legitimacy of the system.
For others. It's going to be a validation of it. Finally, there
is a sense of rule of law that even the most powerful person in
our democracy can be held account if they commit crimes. And so the
question, of course, is which side of that lens are you on? Because
we're seeing it like a Rorschach test? Yeah, Ashley. I wanna, um I
wanna watch. Uh, with the panel. Uh uh uh Little a little. The passage
of of Trump's uh, very unusual press conference today. Let's just play the You saw what happened to some of
the witnesses that were on our side. They were literally crucified by this man who looks like an angel. But he's
really a devil. He looks so nice and soft When we wanted to do
things he wouldn't let him. He wouldn't let us do those things.
But when the government wanted something, they got everything.
They got everything they wanted. It's a rigged it was a rigged trial.
Obviously knowing my personality. I would like to dwell on the
use of the word literally because I I if there was literally a
crucifixion in Manhattan, and we missed it. Shame on shame on us, obviously,
but I I let's let's go to the I wanna ask you a technical
question first. I mean, the trial is over. So Trump is not bound by the
gag order anymore, right? He can say whatever he he wants.
He know that Gagger. Yes, I think he's still bum. He's still
bound. He's still bound. So so talk about that moment today in
the context of of going before this judge in a month and a half to be
sentenced, explain this behavior, right? Well, one of my understanding
is one of the things that this judge or any judge would consider
when they're doing. The sentencing. Just basically four days before
the Republican National Convention is set to begin is if the defendant
if the person is convicted, has shown any remorse or contrition.
Obviously, that's not what we're seeing here. Asthma. Do you think that, um, that Trump is gonna go to jail? I
don't know that I would say that with certainty. I think a lot of
folks would say that there's not an expectation that he will
necessarily actually go to jail. There are other possible consequences,
but I think regardless of whether or not he goes to jail, I think
that there are certainly political consequences. He's going to be sentenced
four days before the Republican convention, and I really do want
to sit with that. For a moment. You are going to see the likely
Republican presidential nominee. Be a convicted felon when his name
is on the ballot Coming November, right, Peter, Go go back to this
question. Uh, of of what Could happen. I mean, there's been and there's
going to be more and more speculation. On the one hand, this is a class
E felony in New York state. It's a It's not the it's the lowest
seriousness. He's a nonviolent offender. Uh, first time offender 77 years old. Putting everything else aside. It
doesn't seem likely that he's going to go to prison. Well, especially
if you consider recidivism. How often is he going to be sleeping
with a porn star and hiding it again? We don't know. But the truth is,
you're right. There are a lot of factors that would mitigate against
a prison term. However, I think Ashley is right. I think that he
has violated the gag order so many times he's not showing remorse.
He's not taking responsibility for his actions. In fact, he's doing
the opposite. And that would in fact, naturally make a judge more
willing to consider something that including some prison time now,
is he going to serve that before the election? No, there's going to
be appeals that Take forever and we know that he will get through
November, almost certainly without having to put on a jumpsuit.
Apparently, it's not an orange jumpsuit in in New York I I read today,
but, um, the things you learn these days, right, But it could be a
question after the election if he is With you to win, right? Because you
cannot pardon himself as a state crime, not a federal crime. What
does that mean? The Supreme Court would almost certainly have to decide
what would happen if he doesn't win. Then he does face actual, You
know, possible punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong, But the only pardon
could the only way to be pardoned would be to have a Republican
governor, presumably of New York state, and that's not a very likely
scenario in the near future. Because I wanna talk to you about, uh,
something I mentioned at the top of the show. Um, this This wasn't the
most. This is probably the least important. In fact, in terms of
national consequence of the four cases that have been brought against
Donald Trump, but it's certainly the The nastiest. I mean, that's
the sort of the the skank. Let's just say not a word one hears on
T BS that often, but so be it. That's the I don't want to get too
technical, but it's a It's a nasty, sleazy business. And, you know,
Peter and I at least are old enough to remember the 19 nineties. Not
like you were young young people. Um uh, when, when Bill Clinton
was president and Republicans were outraged, and many other people were
legitimately outraged. The president. United States was having sexual
relations with a White House intern. Explain To us if you can. The
different dynamics here. The party of Family values. Well, Donald
Trump has fundamentally changed the way the Republican Party the conservative
movement, think about morality in public leadership, something
that I always think about, Uh, when issues like this come up is that before Donald Trump came on the
scene? I can't remember. It was 2013 2014. If you surveyed Republican
voters and asked them how important is public is personal morality in
an elected To you, Uh, something like two thirds of them would say
it's very important that I would rather have somebody of high moral
character than somebody with policies I agree with, uh, a couple of years
into the trump presidency that had flipped, and it was only a
third of voters said that that was the case if you were a Republican,
and that just shows kind of the sea change in evangelical ethics
and social conservative ethics, I think a lot of conservatives now
because of negative partisanship and polarization and all these
forces that Scientists like to talk about. They want to, you know, line
up with their team, right? They want to be with their guy, and then
they kind of create a moral architecture around being able to do that. And
so when you have a case like this where Donald Trump has engaged in
some pretty nasty behavior, skanky behavior, as you might say, Well,
you don't have to keep hitting the word, But all right, Um, but,
you know, cheated on his wife with a with a porn star, and then you
know, is now being convicted. Of committing fraud to cover it up.
You know, it's it's you know, almost a cliche to say if a Democrat had
done that we know what we would be hearing from Social conservatives
and evangelicals, but they want Donald Trump to be elected. And so
they are pivoting away from this specifics of the case, and the
underlying facts of the case to this is a rigged system. This is a
legal persecution. Donald Trump is a victim and we need to back him
because they're going to come after us to be clear. It does go beyond
us. Skanks, though. I mean, you know the argument is just drink
every time we say, because right is he was trying to cheat
an election right that this is not just about covering up bad behavior,
but that he was trying to influence an election in an illegal way. But
going back to MCC's point, I have to say the teams of everyone just
retrenching to their teams was still so striking to me in every
statement that came out you almost didn't have to read that right.
You just had to know if it was AD or an R to know. Right. Like Whole
foods around America, the shoppers were erupting in cheers. They heard
the verdict. Right. Every Republican member had the same land as Trump
and the one person I can think of off the top of my head. Larry
Hogan, who released Didn't even take a stance was just said, Like
I think we should respect the rule of law immediately. Chris Laveda, you know, top person. The
Trump campaign was like, Well, your career is over. It's not
necessarily true. He's running in a very blue Maryland. But it was
just telling that that was the that was. This is this is the This is the red line part because I think at the very
top you've seen Trump said that this was rigged. And then you heard
President Biden come out today and specifically say that you ought
to respect the rule of law. And so just saying that you respect the
rule of law has become political position. Let's actually let's
actually listen to what President Biden said today. This is one of
the first times, probably the first time he's commented on this trial.
He's been very disciplined about not talking about not not interfering
in any way. Let's listen to this for a second. After careful
deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. They found Donald Trump guilty. On all 34 felony counts. Reckless. Is dangerous. It's
irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because
they don't like the verdict. Our justice system has
endured for nearly 250 years. And it literally is the cornerstone
of America. But not the cornerstone for everyone in America. Apparently
so my question Ashley jumping off something, McKay said. Uh, Who
is who who, among people predisposed to support Trump. Is going to
say, you know what now that he's a convicted felon or technically a
convicted felon? I can't do this anymore. Is there any anybody
who's gonna abandon ship of predisposes predisposed? Yeah,
Probably not. I mean, one question I have, and it's too soon to know
the answer to, But if you go back several months, there were some
polls when this this outcome was a mere hypothetical and voters were
asked, Would your opinion change if Trump was convicted felon? It
was also a debate question. It's worth noting. Most Republicans said
no, of course not. I still support him. But there were some voters
who said, and again, I don't know that they were totally predisposed
to support it, but said yes, that would influence my decision. I
mean, it would be fascinating to go back to those people and see if it
actually makes a difference. Another thing I'll just say, which is a
little different. I was in Wisconsin last week, talking to a ton of voters.
I talked to more than 60 voters just about the election in general,
not a single one unprompted brought up the trial in any way, shape or
form. There were these were voters who, like much of the country. Don't
really like either option, right? Um and there Number of reasons they
gave for not liking either option for Trump. The trial did not come
up once, and it will be fascinating to see if now when you talk to
them if it's top of mind, and if it influences how they're thinking
if I can take a one thing on the pole to plug N PR PBS News Hour
Marist poll that came out just the morning that the verdict came out.
What was interesting is they found a majority of voters said they
would not be swayed by the results of the verdict. Guilty or not,
but I think it was one in six. So you're talking about what 17% said
that they would be less likely. And to me that was Because elections
are won on the margins. Georgia What was it about 12,000 votes by
the one Wisconsin 20,000 votes, so you don't need a whole lot of
voters to be swayed? And it arguably is a net benefit, I would say for
I, I do think it's worth worth, noting How many Americans to Ashley's
point are not paying attention to this trial or have not up to now,
But I do wonder if that's changed. Now that he's been found guilty
right? That That is an unprecedented thing that happened that that's a
big news event and And I can see voters who are not interested in
following a trump trial who are not even following the election
that closely but then hearing that that might puncture their kind of
information bubble, and it could change though it is because we
we have nothing to compare it to, right. So we have no history to
look back on and say, Well, this is what happened when so and so got convicted crimes, right? We don't have any of
that. So we don't know the answer to that. But I think you're a huge porn
scandal in the Buchanan administration that you're all forgetting Asma come
back to the, uh, as a as a White House correspondent. I'm particularly
curious to hear you on this. Uh how does the Biden campaign go
to what? What do they do with this to to to take advantage of political
advantage of and you're all right. By the way, Like we have
done that thing that everybody is doing. We're moving away from the
moral and the theological and the constitutional right to the the
the the race, But But we are what, Like, six months away from a
presidential election, I think right now, right? It's a totally valid
question, I think given where we are, so here's the question, How
do you take advantage of the fact that you're running against a
convicted felon? I think it's been a very big challenge. I mean, So what
we've seen from the Biden campaign, I would say in the last couple
of days is this You know, you saw them refer to Trump as a convicted
felon, but what they have tried to do and I think this is what
you're going to continue to see the White House try to do is make
this a contest about democracy. It is something that they thought was
effective for them in 2020. Now, I would argue that Biden is
fighting a very different fight than Was fighting in 2020. The
circumstances are very different for a whole bunch of reasons whether it's
immigration, inflation, the war. There are many other factors. But
I would say they feel that the fight for democracy is to their advantage and that
they can and that This is part of that broader fight for democracy
because they say that Trump is a threat to democracy. M you are
an expert on, among other things, Republican Let's call them dissidents at
this point. You're the biographer, The Boswell of Mitt Romney. He's
a man who ensis. I'm just gonna throw out. Words Go. You've written
a great book you've written. You've written a great book about
Mitt Romney, who is probably along with Liz Cheney. Dissonant number
one or two, Right? Um, they're not. It's not a a huge list,
obviously. But but But you, you, you listen to them and you talk to them
all the time. What is their analysis of Of of the Republican base, both
in terms of the the morality issue and the the the constitutional
issues, the democracy issues you know and I. I talked to Mitt Romney,
something that he would bring up a lot is that Trump's superpower
is his ability to become an avatar for these people who are really
nothing like him, right? But part of what made him so successful in
2016 was convincing them that the establishment disdain Him was the
same thing as the establishment disdain for them, And I think that
the you know the thing that Trump is going to try to pull off here,
and he's been driving this message for years now, But certainly for
this throughout this trial is to say, you know, if they can do this
to me, they can do it to any of you on its face. That's kind of
a ludicrous argument, because, of course, this particulars of what
got trump into this mess or not something that an ordinary trump voter would ever But, you know, talking to Mitt
Romney talking to Republicans of his ilk. They they kind of almost have
like a grim admiration for the stranglehold Trump has on his base
in the sense that, like Romney would always say, you know, Trump
says something every day that if I had said in 2012, it would have
been the end of my political career, right, But it it doesn't matter
because the base is it feels this emotional connection to him that
frankly, people like Mitt Romney never had with. Isn't that Cult of
personality that inevitably sort of dies with the personality like
how is that a sustaining political vision? I don't know that it is. But
I do think that as long as Donald Trump is the dominant figure in
Republican politics, we're kind of trapped in this cycle. Right,
Peter, let's talk about the way this looks to the rest of the world.
I mean, there's there. There are things happening. Uh, the world is
in a very perilous state in Middle East, Ukraine, etc. Questions about
the future of American In Asia and Europe. What does this signal?
There are a lot of people who think that this shows Oh, look, we
we hold our leaders accountable. There are a lot of other people
who would say, makes us look like a banana republic or whatever
pejorative term you would use for a non democracy. I mean, that's of
course, what the argument is going to be the the the the Trump Folks
are going to say this is just about Victor's justice, right? This is
just about the next person coming in convicting the last one. And by
the way, Biden you ought to watch out because you're setting a precedent
when we get Again, we're going after you. Ironically, of course,
Ironically, But notably, Trump is promising to do what he accuses
without any evidence. Biden of doing which, as he says he's going
to use the justice system to punish his foes. That is definitely something
a lot of the world would recognize. But it's not unheard of for
institution for advanced democracies to hold their former leaders accountable
in a criminal setting. France Israel, Italy plenty of of the biggest,
most important and most respected In the world have convicted their
former leaders of crimes when they when they had evidence of that,
and so a lot of people will say, I think, Jeff, you're right that
this is America, you know, cleaning its own house in some ways that it
will not in fact defer to somebody simply because he has a stranglehold
on part of the electorate. And there's also the question pushing
it forward to Election Day, which is because there's nothing that
prevents a convicted felon from running for office for for survey and right.
We've now learned that I believe you can serve from prison,
potentially like a fact I didn't know. But the question of what it says
if Americans go to the polls and affirmatively choose a convicted
felon to return to office that also says something about our country
and our values. You know what it says about our this wasn't written into the
Constitution because no one imagined when the Constitution was being written
that that anyone who is convicted there was a need for this. Yes, I
mean, you also it's just it's beyond the imagination of the of the
founders and Framers not to be too depressing about it, but But it is.
It does show a kind of, um, devolution in our actually Imagine this, though, just
to play Devil's advocate because they actually did write the
Constitution that if you are impeached as president, you can still be tried
and convicted afterwards, which is, ironically, an issue. The
Supreme Court is now taking up. But there were also founders who said if
you have a criminal in the presidency, which is what we may have come next
January, Uh then we are risking return. As to the king that we
had when we threw him overboard in the American revolution. There
were people who considered this and were worried about it, but they
never came up with a real solution. Peter 25 seconds. What does it mean if a
convicted felon wins the presidency of the United States for our
democracy? Well, I think it says that our democracy is very torn about
what that means, right because it means that at least half the country
or something like half the country will believe the system doesn't
work and that he's not a convicted felon worthy of approbation worthy
of, you know of of holding and disrepute and the other half is
going to say what is up with this? You know? How can we? How can we have a criminal? What is up with this in the Oval
Office? That's next week's subject. Democracy? What is unfortunately, we do need to leave
it there For now. I want to thank Analysts for joining us and thanks
to all of you for watching before we go. We wanna thank our long
time Lighting Director Charlie for his 43 years of incredible work
here at Washington Week and Weida, Charlie, We wish you all the best
in your well earned retirement. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Good night
from Washington.
