Washington Week with The Atlantic full episode, May 31, 2024

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We try not to use the word unprecedented on  this show when talking about the 45th president,   But here we are. For the first time in American  history. A former president who was once again   his party's presumptive nominee, has been  found guilty in a felony criminal trial. Well, the next president of the  United States of America be a person convicted of hiding hush money  payments to a porn star. Will the Republican nominee for president  go to prison? And will any of this even matter? Come November. Next. Good evening and  welcome to Washington Week. Donald Trump is in a convicted felon yet  sorry to be pedantic here, but he technically acquires that  status only at sentencing come July 11th. But a New York jury has spoken,  finding him guilty of engaging in a financial scheme to keep the  porn star Stormy Daniels quiet about their sexual encounter, one  that occurred shortly after Trump's wife gave birth to their son Trump,  in in addition to this guilty verdict was recently found liable  for sexual abuse in a civil case. In total, more than 25 women have  accused him of sexual assault and sexual harassment. The reaction  of the Republican Party leaders to the verdict was to rally around  Trump evangelical leaders, including Franklin Graham also doubled down  on their support. Graham writing on X said. What we saw today has  never happened before, and I think for the majority of Americans,  it raises questions about whether our legal system can be trusted.  Joining me tonight to discuss the fallout and the consequences of  this historic verdict. Peter Baker, the chief White House reporter for  The New York Times. Ashley Parker, senior national political  correspondent for The Washington Post. Asma Khalid, White House correspondent  for N PR and My Colleague and Staff writer at the Atlantic.  McKay Coppins. Thank you all for joining me. It's the been the sort  of week that you never would have imagined earlier in your journalism  careers. You never. You never see. But here we are, Um, uh, Peter  without using the word unprecedented. We've talked about this in the  past, right. You can't do it. He's incapable. No, no, no, no, it's  it's hard. It's hard not to This is never. We've never had this  before. But without trying to not use the word unprecedented. Describe  the meaning of the events of the past couple of days. Uh, you  know, when do you think history is kind of getting a little tired  at this point, Like we keep making so much of it in these last five  years, it's almost become normalized, and that's the thing right. We  have it. We have almost forgotten how extraordinary this is because  we move immediately from the notion that a president a former president  states has been convicted on 34 felonies. Two. The next question  is what Mean for his campaign. How about fundraising and look at  these, uh, statements of support from his backers? And what is the  President? President Biden saying about it. We don't stop and take a breath and say Wow. This is extraordinary. Now,  for many people, not probably a majority. Sorry, Reverend Graham.  But for maybe will raise questions about the legitimacy of the system.  For others. It's going to be a validation of it. Finally, there  is a sense of rule of law that even the most powerful person in  our democracy can be held account if they commit crimes. And so the  question, of course, is which side of that lens are you on? Because  we're seeing it like a Rorschach test? Yeah, Ashley. I wanna, um I  wanna watch. Uh, with the panel. Uh uh uh Little a little. The passage  of of Trump's uh, very unusual press conference today. Let's just play the You saw what happened to some of  the witnesses that were on our side. They were literally crucified by this man who looks like an angel. But he's  really a devil. He looks so nice and soft When we wanted to do  things he wouldn't let him. He wouldn't let us do those things.  But when the government wanted something, they got everything.  They got everything they wanted. It's a rigged it was a rigged trial.  Obviously knowing my personality. I would like to dwell on the  use of the word literally because I I if there was literally a  crucifixion in Manhattan, and we missed it. Shame on shame on us, obviously,  but I I let's let's go to the I wanna ask you a technical  question first. I mean, the trial is over. So Trump is not bound by the  gag order anymore, right? He can say whatever he he wants.  He know that Gagger. Yes, I think he's still bum. He's still  bound. He's still bound. So so talk about that moment today in  the context of of going before this judge in a month and a half to be  sentenced, explain this behavior, right? Well, one of my understanding  is one of the things that this judge or any judge would consider  when they're doing. The sentencing. Just basically four days before  the Republican National Convention is set to begin is if the defendant  if the person is convicted, has shown any remorse or contrition.  Obviously, that's not what we're seeing here. Asthma. Do you think that, um, that Trump is gonna go to jail? I  don't know that I would say that with certainty. I think a lot of  folks would say that there's not an expectation that he will  necessarily actually go to jail. There are other possible consequences,  but I think regardless of whether or not he goes to jail, I think  that there are certainly political consequences. He's going to be sentenced  four days before the Republican convention, and I really do want  to sit with that. For a moment. You are going to see the likely  Republican presidential nominee. Be a convicted felon when his name  is on the ballot Coming November, right, Peter, Go go back to this  question. Uh, of of what Could happen. I mean, there's been and there's  going to be more and more speculation. On the one hand, this is a class  E felony in New York state. It's a It's not the it's the lowest  seriousness. He's a nonviolent offender. Uh, first time offender 77 years old. Putting everything else aside. It  doesn't seem likely that he's going to go to prison. Well, especially  if you consider recidivism. How often is he going to be sleeping  with a porn star and hiding it again? We don't know. But the truth is,  you're right. There are a lot of factors that would mitigate against  a prison term. However, I think Ashley is right. I think that he  has violated the gag order so many times he's not showing remorse.  He's not taking responsibility for his actions. In fact, he's doing  the opposite. And that would in fact, naturally make a judge more  willing to consider something that including some prison time now,  is he going to serve that before the election? No, there's going to  be appeals that Take forever and we know that he will get through  November, almost certainly without having to put on a jumpsuit.  Apparently, it's not an orange jumpsuit in in New York I I read today,  but, um, the things you learn these days, right, But it could be a  question after the election if he is With you to win, right? Because you  cannot pardon himself as a state crime, not a federal crime. What  does that mean? The Supreme Court would almost certainly have to decide  what would happen if he doesn't win. Then he does face actual, You  know, possible punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong, But the only pardon  could the only way to be pardoned would be to have a Republican  governor, presumably of New York state, and that's not a very likely  scenario in the near future. Because I wanna talk to you about, uh,  something I mentioned at the top of the show. Um, this This wasn't the  most. This is probably the least important. In fact, in terms of  national consequence of the four cases that have been brought against  Donald Trump, but it's certainly the The nastiest. I mean, that's  the sort of the the skank. Let's just say not a word one hears on  T BS that often, but so be it. That's the I don't want to get too  technical, but it's a It's a nasty, sleazy business. And, you know,  Peter and I at least are old enough to remember the 19 nineties. Not  like you were young young people. Um uh, when, when Bill Clinton  was president and Republicans were outraged, and many other people were  legitimately outraged. The president. United States was having sexual  relations with a White House intern. Explain To us if you can. The  different dynamics here. The party of Family values. Well, Donald  Trump has fundamentally changed the way the Republican Party the conservative  movement, think about morality in public leadership, something  that I always think about, Uh, when issues like this come up is that before Donald Trump came on the  scene? I can't remember. It was 2013 2014. If you surveyed Republican  voters and asked them how important is public is personal morality in  an elected To you, Uh, something like two thirds of them would say  it's very important that I would rather have somebody of high moral  character than somebody with policies I agree with, uh, a couple of years  into the trump presidency that had flipped, and it was only a  third of voters said that that was the case if you were a Republican,  and that just shows kind of the sea change in evangelical ethics  and social conservative ethics, I think a lot of conservatives now  because of negative partisanship and polarization and all these  forces that Scientists like to talk about. They want to, you know, line  up with their team, right? They want to be with their guy, and then  they kind of create a moral architecture around being able to do that. And  so when you have a case like this where Donald Trump has engaged in  some pretty nasty behavior, skanky behavior, as you might say, Well,  you don't have to keep hitting the word, But all right, Um, but,  you know, cheated on his wife with a with a porn star, and then you  know, is now being convicted. Of committing fraud to cover it up.  You know, it's it's you know, almost a cliche to say if a Democrat had  done that we know what we would be hearing from Social conservatives  and evangelicals, but they want Donald Trump to be elected. And so  they are pivoting away from this specifics of the case, and the  underlying facts of the case to this is a rigged system. This is a  legal persecution. Donald Trump is a victim and we need to back him  because they're going to come after us to be clear. It does go beyond  us. Skanks, though. I mean, you know the argument is just drink  every time we say, because right is he was trying to cheat  an election right that this is not just about covering up bad behavior,  but that he was trying to influence an election in an illegal way. But  going back to MCC's point, I have to say the teams of everyone just  retrenching to their teams was still so striking to me in every  statement that came out you almost didn't have to read that right.  You just had to know if it was AD or an R to know. Right. Like Whole  foods around America, the shoppers were erupting in cheers. They heard  the verdict. Right. Every Republican member had the same land as Trump  and the one person I can think of off the top of my head. Larry  Hogan, who released Didn't even take a stance was just said, Like  I think we should respect the rule of law immediately. Chris Laveda, you know, top person. The  Trump campaign was like, Well, your career is over. It's not  necessarily true. He's running in a very blue Maryland. But it was  just telling that that was the that was. This is this is the This is the red line part because I think at the very  top you've seen Trump said that this was rigged. And then you heard  President Biden come out today and specifically say that you ought  to respect the rule of law. And so just saying that you respect the  rule of law has become political position. Let's actually let's  actually listen to what President Biden said today. This is one of  the first times, probably the first time he's commented on this trial.  He's been very disciplined about not talking about not not interfering  in any way. Let's listen to this for a second. After careful  deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. They found Donald Trump guilty. On all 34 felony counts. Reckless. Is dangerous. It's  irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because  they don't like the verdict. Our justice system has  endured for nearly 250 years. And it literally is the cornerstone  of America. But not the cornerstone for everyone in America. Apparently  so my question Ashley jumping off something, McKay said. Uh, Who  is who who, among people predisposed to support Trump. Is going to  say, you know what now that he's a convicted felon or technically a  convicted felon? I can't do this anymore. Is there any anybody  who's gonna abandon ship of predisposes predisposed? Yeah,  Probably not. I mean, one question I have, and it's too soon to know  the answer to, But if you go back several months, there were some  polls when this this outcome was a mere hypothetical and voters were  asked, Would your opinion change if Trump was convicted felon? It  was also a debate question. It's worth noting. Most Republicans said  no, of course not. I still support him. But there were some voters  who said, and again, I don't know that they were totally predisposed  to support it, but said yes, that would influence my decision. I  mean, it would be fascinating to go back to those people and see if it  actually makes a difference. Another thing I'll just say, which is a  little different. I was in Wisconsin last week, talking to a ton of voters.  I talked to more than 60 voters just about the election in general,  not a single one unprompted brought up the trial in any way, shape or  form. There were these were voters who, like much of the country. Don't  really like either option, right? Um and there Number of reasons they  gave for not liking either option for Trump. The trial did not come  up once, and it will be fascinating to see if now when you talk to  them if it's top of mind, and if it influences how they're thinking  if I can take a one thing on the pole to plug N PR PBS News Hour  Marist poll that came out just the morning that the verdict came out.  What was interesting is they found a majority of voters said they  would not be swayed by the results of the verdict. Guilty or not,  but I think it was one in six. So you're talking about what 17% said  that they would be less likely. And to me that was Because elections  are won on the margins. Georgia What was it about 12,000 votes by  the one Wisconsin 20,000 votes, so you don't need a whole lot of  voters to be swayed? And it arguably is a net benefit, I would say for  I, I do think it's worth worth, noting How many Americans to Ashley's  point are not paying attention to this trial or have not up to now,  But I do wonder if that's changed. Now that he's been found guilty  right? That That is an unprecedented thing that happened that that's a  big news event and And I can see voters who are not interested in  following a trump trial who are not even following the election  that closely but then hearing that that might puncture their kind of  information bubble, and it could change though it is because we  we have nothing to compare it to, right. So we have no history to  look back on and say, Well, this is what happened when so and so got convicted crimes, right? We don't have any of  that. So we don't know the answer to that. But I think you're a huge porn  scandal in the Buchanan administration that you're all forgetting Asma come  back to the, uh, as a as a White House correspondent. I'm particularly  curious to hear you on this. Uh how does the Biden campaign go  to what? What do they do with this to to to take advantage of political  advantage of and you're all right. By the way, Like we have  done that thing that everybody is doing. We're moving away from the  moral and the theological and the constitutional right to the the  the the race, But But we are what, Like, six months away from a  presidential election, I think right now, right? It's a totally valid  question, I think given where we are, so here's the question, How  do you take advantage of the fact that you're running against a  convicted felon? I think it's been a very big challenge. I mean, So what  we've seen from the Biden campaign, I would say in the last couple  of days is this You know, you saw them refer to Trump as a convicted  felon, but what they have tried to do and I think this is what  you're going to continue to see the White House try to do is make  this a contest about democracy. It is something that they thought was  effective for them in 2020. Now, I would argue that Biden is  fighting a very different fight than Was fighting in 2020. The  circumstances are very different for a whole bunch of reasons whether it's  immigration, inflation, the war. There are many other factors. But  I would say they feel that the fight for democracy is to their advantage and that  they can and that This is part of that broader fight for democracy  because they say that Trump is a threat to democracy. M you are  an expert on, among other things, Republican Let's call them dissidents at  this point. You're the biographer, The Boswell of Mitt Romney. He's  a man who ensis. I'm just gonna throw out. Words Go. You've written  a great book you've written. You've written a great book about  Mitt Romney, who is probably along with Liz Cheney. Dissonant number  one or two, Right? Um, they're not. It's not a a huge list,  obviously. But but But you, you, you listen to them and you talk to them  all the time. What is their analysis of Of of the Republican base, both  in terms of the the morality issue and the the the constitutional  issues, the democracy issues you know and I. I talked to Mitt Romney,  something that he would bring up a lot is that Trump's superpower  is his ability to become an avatar for these people who are really  nothing like him, right? But part of what made him so successful in  2016 was convincing them that the establishment disdain Him was the  same thing as the establishment disdain for them, And I think that  the you know the thing that Trump is going to try to pull off here,  and he's been driving this message for years now, But certainly for  this throughout this trial is to say, you know, if they can do this  to me, they can do it to any of you on its face. That's kind of  a ludicrous argument, because, of course, this particulars of what  got trump into this mess or not something that an ordinary trump voter would ever But, you know, talking to Mitt  Romney talking to Republicans of his ilk. They they kind of almost have  like a grim admiration for the stranglehold Trump has on his base  in the sense that, like Romney would always say, you know, Trump  says something every day that if I had said in 2012, it would have  been the end of my political career, right, But it it doesn't matter  because the base is it feels this emotional connection to him that  frankly, people like Mitt Romney never had with. Isn't that Cult of  personality that inevitably sort of dies with the personality like  how is that a sustaining political vision? I don't know that it is. But  I do think that as long as Donald Trump is the dominant figure in  Republican politics, we're kind of trapped in this cycle. Right,  Peter, let's talk about the way this looks to the rest of the world.  I mean, there's there. There are things happening. Uh, the world is  in a very perilous state in Middle East, Ukraine, etc. Questions about  the future of American In Asia and Europe. What does this signal?  There are a lot of people who think that this shows Oh, look, we  we hold our leaders accountable. There are a lot of other people  who would say, makes us look like a banana republic or whatever  pejorative term you would use for a non democracy. I mean, that's of  course, what the argument is going to be the the the the Trump Folks  are going to say this is just about Victor's justice, right? This is  just about the next person coming in convicting the last one. And by  the way, Biden you ought to watch out because you're setting a precedent  when we get Again, we're going after you. Ironically, of course,  Ironically, But notably, Trump is promising to do what he accuses  without any evidence. Biden of doing which, as he says he's going  to use the justice system to punish his foes. That is definitely something  a lot of the world would recognize. But it's not unheard of for  institution for advanced democracies to hold their former leaders accountable  in a criminal setting. France Israel, Italy plenty of of the biggest,  most important and most respected In the world have convicted their  former leaders of crimes when they when they had evidence of that,  and so a lot of people will say, I think, Jeff, you're right that  this is America, you know, cleaning its own house in some ways that it  will not in fact defer to somebody simply because he has a stranglehold  on part of the electorate. And there's also the question pushing  it forward to Election Day, which is because there's nothing that  prevents a convicted felon from running for office for for survey and right.  We've now learned that I believe you can serve from prison,  potentially like a fact I didn't know. But the question of what it says  if Americans go to the polls and affirmatively choose a convicted  felon to return to office that also says something about our country  and our values. You know what it says about our this wasn't written into the  Constitution because no one imagined when the Constitution was being written  that that anyone who is convicted there was a need for this. Yes, I  mean, you also it's just it's beyond the imagination of the of the  founders and Framers not to be too depressing about it, but But it is.  It does show a kind of, um, devolution in our actually Imagine this, though, just  to play Devil's advocate because they actually did write the  Constitution that if you are impeached as president, you can still be tried  and convicted afterwards, which is, ironically, an issue. The  Supreme Court is now taking up. But there were also founders who said if  you have a criminal in the presidency, which is what we may have come next  January, Uh then we are risking return. As to the king that we  had when we threw him overboard in the American revolution. There  were people who considered this and were worried about it, but they  never came up with a real solution. Peter 25 seconds. What does it mean if a  convicted felon wins the presidency of the United States for our  democracy? Well, I think it says that our democracy is very torn about  what that means, right because it means that at least half the country  or something like half the country will believe the system doesn't  work and that he's not a convicted felon worthy of approbation worthy  of, you know of of holding and disrepute and the other half is  going to say what is up with this? You know? How can we? How can we have a criminal? What is up with this in the Oval  Office? That's next week's subject. Democracy? What is unfortunately, we do need to leave  it there For now. I want to thank Analysts for joining us and thanks  to all of you for watching before we go. We wanna thank our long  time Lighting Director Charlie for his 43 years of incredible work  here at Washington Week and Weida, Charlie, We wish you all the best  in your well earned retirement. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Good night  from Washington.
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Channel: Washington Week PBS
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Keywords: trump trial, trump hush money trial, trump guilty, trump verdict, trump new York, alvin Bragg, stormy Daniels, trump, Donald trump, 2024 trump, 2016 election trump, trump cover up case, trump court, #WashWeekPBS, PBS Wash Week, PBS Washington week, Wash Week, Washington week, Washington Week PBS, joe biden, president joe biden, senate, supreme court, House of Representatives, Congress, Washington week with the atlantic, the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, pbs & the atlantic
Id: Vj_VkaKWZ88
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Length: 24min 10sec (1450 seconds)
Published: Sat Jun 01 2024
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