Washington Week with The Atlantic full episode, 4/26/24

crucial American military aid is on the way to Ukraine thanks in part to the work of the speaker of the house and billions in assistant are also heading for Taiwan as well as Israel just as Pro Palestinian protests intensify on many Elite college campuses next this is Washington Week with the Atlantic corporate funding provided by Consumer Cellular certified financial planner professionals are proud to support Washington Week with the Atlantic cfp professionals are committed to acting in their clients best interest more information at letsmakeaplan.org additional funding is provided by K and Patricia Yuans with the Yuan Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities Sandra and Carl delay Magnuson Rose hersel and Andy shres Robert and Susan rosenbom The Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you once again from Washington editorinchief of the Atlantic and moderator Jeffrey Goldberg good evening and welcome to Washington Week it's been a busy week not only in Washington but in New York where the 45th president of the United States is currently on trial for Alle Ed Shenanigans related to payoffs to an adult film actress which is a completely normal thing to say Mike Johnson fresh off his legislative victory over Marjorie Taylor green and the isolationist wing of his party headed to Columbia University in New York to show his support for Jewish students and also to remind Republicans just how much they dislike the ivy league we have a lot to talk about and here with me to discuss the week are Peter Baker who is the chief White House correspondent at the New York Times Laura Baron Lopez is the White House correspondent for PBS NewsHour David Ducker is a senior writer with the dispatch and Mara Eliason is a national political correspondent for NPR welcome all um Mara I want to start with you um the big funding bill for Ukraine and Taiwan and Israel and the whole Tick Tock issue which we can get into uh now law very interesting not what people were necessarily expecting so the the big question is can the center hold it did which is kind of amazing for this and I think what this showed is that the laws of political gravity and political math have not been completely overturned if you have a two- seat majority and an unruly conference and you want to pass something like Ukraine Aid or keep the government open or stop it from going into default you have to work across the aisle and depend on Democratic votes and that is considered a cardinal sin among the magga wing of the Republicans in the house but that's what happened this week right but the Maga Wing did not not rise up and throw out at least because they not yet not yet and they right now it looks like they don't have the votes to do that but I want to say one other thing that was amazing about this is that speaker Johnson in said that one of the reasons he was going to do this is because he believed the intelligence briefings that he got which is astounding because one of the tenants of the modern trumpy GOP is that you don't believe anything the intelligence Community says or the FBI or any law enforcement because Trump thinks all the agencies especially when your CIA director is appointed by demat and that was key I was texting with a house Republican today who told me that that briefing with CIA director Bill Burns that speaker Johnson had was really crucial for him to change his mind and decide that he was going to risk his potential speakership put this bill on the floor uh even though all of the Maga Wing didn't want it that as well as his conversations with NATO leaders this house Republican told me were key for speaker Johnson and and and then these National Security House Republicans who really said to him that he needed to be on the right side of history and made that appeal to him and that this was not just you know that this was also a moral decision that he needed to make and so then he ultimately shifted right so David what this means is either Bill Burns is the greatest briefer in history or that that the Reagan wing of the Republican party is not yet dead or possibly both um but but is this a return to the rean style muscular internationalist uh anti-russian anti-authoritarian wing of the party you know as a Cold War Kid that would certainly be the more familiar thing to see I I think that we need to look at it like this as I traveled the country over the past year covering the Republican primary what I discovered is that there is still a healthy Republican faction of the Republican party but it is for now at least As Long As Trump is in control of the party the minority Factor right but it's there and so I think what we saw develop in the House of Representatives and the US Senate um in recent days is this faction of the party that still believes in Reagan Era muscular foreign policy assert itself and and so not only were they able to do that they also were able to team up with a Democratic party that 40 years ago would never have been with Republicans on that issue the idea that that that Joe Biden as president would be the one pushing for this if we were to go back in time uh is almost astounding and so there was a good Confluence of issues and events and agreement that we don't necessarily see on other issues I will say too to Laura's point you talked to to House Republicans who had to go through losing a speaker when most of them didn't want that to happen and karthy yes and there's a deep amount of frustration at the idea that they were being spun around by a minority and I think particularly after the mullers and Iran decided to attack Israel directly they looked at the National Security situation uh globally and said we've had enough we've had enough of being Twisted by this minority of our conference and we've had enough uh standing down and not doing what the United States is supposed to do and it all came together to produce this Grand compromise that happened in the middle of an otherwise horribly dysfunctional Congress right I want to I want to come back to speaker Johnson and what this means for his career and staying power in a minute but I want to stay on the the subject of of the Republican Party RIT large Peter do you think that um is this more of a blip and that the the Maga Wing the isolationist style Wing uh of the party is going to assert itself well I think we should be careful but over interpreting one one moment of course that's what we do on this show we over interpret moment until next week and we next when we re interpret yes but it is worth remembering that a majority of the Republicans or more more Republicans in the house voted against the Ukraine Aid than voted for it right right I mean so yes it was a strong bipartisan majority 300 some votes you know the votes better than I do uh very impressive in that sense but but of the Republicans most Republicans more Republicans voted against than voted for so we can't write them off obviously and that tells you something about the evolution of the party well what David's point is so fascinating is the Democrats are the St cold Warriors to borrow your term say something else Donald Trump kind of stood down he was a real anti- Ukraine guy he got impeached the first time for pressuring zalinsky to open investigation of Joe Biden he's anti- Ukraine he's been very sympathetic and kind of showed a lot of affection for Vladimir Putin but he didn't insist that Republicans vote against this in the end I there's a lot of explanations one is I don't know if he wanted to have a big mess in Europe on his hands if he became president I think the other thing is to to Davis point to about the Iran Israel fight of the previous weekend is that the Republicans realized that their case against Biden rests in part on portraying him as weak right he is a weak leader and it's awfully hard to make that case if they're the ones who are holding up Aid Israel and Ukraine and so they had to get that off the plate in order to make that which Laura what what does this mean for the speaker and the and and his staying power what have you learned about speaker Johnson in the last couple of weeks well he's safe momentarily I mean I think next week we are going to see a potential effort by um the M wing of the party to potentially raise a motion to vacate uh now the Democrats I've spoken to say that motion to vacate means V vacate means a vote to OU him and now of course it doesn't look like they have the support to actually oust him the way they did for Kevin McCarthy because this time around Democrats have told me that that a lot of them are willing to put up the votes to protect uh speaker Mike Johnson they feel as though he operated in good faith on Ukraine with this vote they aren't going to necessarily do that for free though they want to see some more compromises out of him and some more ability to uh have power over what actually comes to the floor and the types of bills that that comes to the floor and it remains to be seen if he's going to actually engage they want what is an example of something want uh Power sharing on the rules committee now this is getting a little weedy but it has control over what ultimately gets to the floor and so they want to have more ability and Power to say we want votes on more bills that we think would get big bipartisan votes that wouldn't necessarily reach the floor otherwise you know Jeff George Schultz used to say that trust is the coin of the realm when you're talking about how you do things in Washington I think what the speaker did was proved to Democrats he was trustworthy and in an initial motion to vacate attempt I think Democrats will do what they said they' they are going to do which is to protect him from that I think if this keeps coming up over and over that's when the Democrats start to say okay what else is in it for us by the same token however House Republicans broadly do not have an appetite for this and if speaker Johnson were actually vacated they're not going to get speaker Jordan or speaker Phill in the blank you're going to end up with a a Unity speaker of some sort or a Centrist Republican because nobody wants to go through this and reward the Mal contents and I think I think the people that are thinking through the motion to vacate that want to bring it marjerie Taylor green Thomas Massie and some others are hearing this and so I'm curious to see if they actually act you know it's so interesting one of the underrated aspects of Johnson's uh performance is that he is generally liked I and and Kevin McCarthy not so liked if you listen to house Democrats they say very respectful things about Johnson that they didn't say about McCarthy even though Johnson is far more to the right and far further away from Democrats ideologically than McCarthy was right but they believe that he dealt with them in straight straight and and and and upfront way and McCarthy didn't right uh Peter let me stay with you for a minute and the actual subject of importance uh Ukraine and its new found ability or whether it has a new found ability to actually win and reverse the tide uh Russia hasn't punched through the lines in a significant way but everybody in Washington analysts in Europe believe that the ukrainians are on their back foot does this change the picture in a dramatic and ongoing way for Ukraine's chances it changes the picture it's not quite clear yet obviously they lost a lot of momentum because it took so long to get this money they've been going for months without uh enough artillery rounds for instance to Simply have a a proper battle in effect but the most important thing that came along with the $60 billion is also the decision by the bid Administration to give the long range attacks these are missiles that can fire up to 190 miles away which the ukrainians have wanted for a long time Biden was reluctant to give it to them gave it to them and within hours the ukrainians put them to good use now the question is can those be used to take out some of these radar uh and and other facilities that the Russians have been using to launch missiles at Ukrainian targets if they can take out the Russian ability to uh whack the infrastructure and civilian Targets in Ukraine they might be able to uh to make a difference but the expectation is these next few months are about holding the line and then to see if in the fall the delivery weapons has reached point where they can actually make a a meaningful move forward right are we going to be back in this crisis again when this current tranch of money current tranch of weapons is run through this should run through this presidency the real question here is not money at this point the real question is the November election okay who wins an election if it's Trump then they know it's over because they're not going to get any more money they're certainly not going to get any support he's already told the world he's willing to give Russia all the territory he's taken how do you even negotiate a peace settlement at point when you've given everything away at the front end and the ukrainians know that and the Europeans know that right let me switch subjects well speaker Johnson so it's the same subject but another thing that speaker Johnson did in the last couple weeks is visit Columbia University hostile territory for speaker Johnson if you want to watch this for one second you'll see what I mean anti-israel encampments are popping up at universities all across this count [Applause] country the madness has to stop the madness has has to stop I am here today joining my colleagues and calling on President shaik to resign if she cannot immediately bring order to this chaos David what is the speaker trying to accomplish at Columbia well number one this is an issue that Republicans are up in arms about I mean just Republican voters are watching what's going on on college campuses across the country and it's no longer just Ivy leue campuses it's all over the country and they're upset about it they want to see Republicans Act secondly it's it's a win because we were talking about this earlier uh when you have all the right enemies these days that's just a political win so he's getting booed and booed by all the right people but I'd say this too there are a lot of democratic congressmen that are super upset about this that have traveled to the Ivy Leagues uh to show solidar solidarity for the Jewish students that that feel threatened that are threatened uh because of these encampments and so what Johnson is doing number one bolsters his in within the Republican conference they want to see action but it doesn't hurt him with up the broad number of Democrats and does not hurt him or his relationship with uh House minority leader Jeff and and so it's just good politics but also to the extent that Americans and voters are looking at this and they don't like what they see I know some do but to the extent that many don't uh and they want to see the federal government active um it shows that he's leading and I think one of the biggest developments to come out of the past couple of weeks with Johnson is that he led he showed a minority in his conference that he wasn't going to be twisted around and now they see him active and that tends to reflect well on you Mara was this was this visit to Colombia where I mean it's sort of extraordinary I call this the b-roll trip the speaker of the house going to a university to call for the resignation of its president it's sort of like below his pay grade in a lot of way generate Boll and these you'll see by Boll you mean like oh he's he's all the right enemies is what D but what I mean by Boll is this is going B rolling ads you know when you're what you're going to see in the fall are this is the Republicans equivalent of the George Floyd Pro I mean protests you know they want to show that campuses are in chaos because part of making Biden look weak is to say he can't do anything about the chaos in the world the chaos on campus and you're going to see you're going to see these pictures but I just want to add that that Republicans pull these stunts all the time and people look at them and they say this is a stunt but this is actually a situation where many people across the political people that will never vote for Republicans believe this is a problem and don't necessarily see this as a stunt does not stun people people like stunts sometimes I I want to hear I want I want to hear Laura on this yeah yeah I mean I guess the yes that's true that there are some across the political spectrum that would be happy with what speaker Johnson did but I am kind of questioning what voters actually he thinks he might be winning over does this rally the base yes does this win over young voters no does it win over you know polls have shown that a majority of Americans actually think that Israel has gone too far uh in their actions against Gaza a and so that's why you've seen President Biden start to shift his rhetoric over the course of the last few months that is that is true but I I want to I want to mention this poll very interesting poll from The Institute of politics um at Harvard um shows that the Israel Palestine issue this is a poll of 18 to 29 year old voters um despite what we're seeing on some campuses it's not it's not ranking high in their list of interest if you look at the list U the these these voters are more interested and more preoccupied with gun violence and protecting democracy and Reproductive Rights abortion issue education immigration job all these come out ahead so so the the the question is is are we part of me wonders if we're paying so much attention to Colombia because half the journalists in America went to columia right and it's e easy access easy access to the media in Midtown but but there was another poll this week and it was a poll of house Democrats and they voted 5 to one for the Israel Aid and then the Senate only three Democrats I believe voted against the overall package and that means that yes there visible pictures it's very combustible it's a remarkably viable moment on campuses but among the elected Democrats they are five to one in favor of unconditioned aid for Israel now that package also included $9 billion of humanitarian aid for Gaza so a lot of Democrats who might be concerned with how far Israel's going can say look I voted for that because I want the money to get the humanitarian aid but in any cas case it's interesting that the division among Democrats on Israel was not nearly as as as deep as I one might have thought it would be right and go ahead just on young voters I was just in Michigan and I spoke to a group of young voters across the Spectrum and so watch NewsHour next week because we'll have that on our air but you know yes there was one voter who Biden has clearly lost she voted for him in 2020 she uh goes to Michigan State University she says she's not going to vote for him again because of Gaza who's she going to vote for uh she may not vote or she may just protest vote she's not going to vote for Donald Trump and then there are the other uh young voters who say that yeah g they are concerned about Gaza and Israel and Hamas but that their main issues are to that poll that you showed Jeff are abortion it's democracy it's economy it's a range of other issues uh which I think might be getting lost a bit in DC because of what's uh what we're seeing play out across College C David you also were traversing Michigan uh recently you guys we wed yeah um and and I'm wondering what you found in terms of the relative importance of this issue compared to other issues yeah it was really interesting in conversations I had with Democrats and Republicans insiders working uh to elect uh their respective nominees uh the first issues they would mention to me were bread and butter issues for Republicans it was inflation and immigration and the problems we're having at the southern border with the gaming of the Asylum process uh Democrats were talking about abortion rights Reproductive Rights um and and and issues like democracy and and the concerns about Trump and then I would say oh and and what about uh the president's policies Visa Israel and the war in Gaza oh yes and then they would get into that um and talk about that but they they didn't necessarily see those issues as deciding now I will say that Republicans look at the problem that the president's having with having with Arab Arab American voters in Michigan and they believe that a serious depletion of votes from his Coalition could cost Biden uh the state ultimately but they don't think that the president's in any risk of losing the Jewish vote no matter how much his rhetoric were to shift on Israel and what I heard from Arab Americans was well his rhetoric may have shifted but his policy certainly money going and they notice that and and so ultimately I think think the president has to make a decision about exactly what kind of campaign he wants to run quickly for the both of you is Michigan the toughest swing state right now for Biden I think I I believe it it is hands down I mean other than the Sun Belt State wait do we have a total consensus around the blue wall St but Arizona and Georgia Al problems in the sun Bel the wall States I think he he needs to win Michigan to win but it was interesting that there I was in Michigan as well uh and her what's going on in well knows the Del are know it's like I missed something I was told of the 100,000 Democrats who voted uncommitted in that primary as a protester what have you against Biden uh Democrats they worry about a half of them won't come back to him now they're not going to go to Trump you're right I mean not going do Trump question is they stay home or they that's the same thing as a vote for Trump as far as the Biden campaign is concerned but having said that there was a poll this week that said of the Swing States Trump was leading in all of them except for Michigan the only place Biden was head by two points so it's early to say the other thing is in terms of the war you know it depends on what happens with Rafa right now there's actually not a lot of war going on compared to where it was right if this were to somehow cycle down if they got a deal that's a big if you know by September when people are voting it's possible people are looking at other issues as more acute at the moment there's a lot of energy in Israel now there was new video of a of an Israeli hostage who people thought might have not been yes healthy but is there he lost an arm but and that's caused another kind of round of we got to get a deal which obviously militates against uh the B Administration made clear this week that they think it's Hamas not Israel right now that is blocking that deal it's an important statement for them to make but still people want to see this over and and and the question is can they make it happen let us leave Michigan if you can bear it and come back to New York uh just to talk about the trial the first week of testimony in the first trial ever criminal trial of an American ex-president um Mara what did we learn so far well we learned that the prosecution has a very elaborate story to tell and they're telling it about how all these people helped Trump there's a lot of spit on that ball what when you say elaborate you mean hard to hard to it's complicated but the quest the the job for the prosecution is not just to explain what catch and kill is which is where you pay somebody to not go to the press and tell their story but also how those things were illegal or supported an illegal scheme and that's what they have to do and the judge doesn't seem to be very happy with the Trump lawyers or with Trump himself he keeps on violating the gag order but overall this case has been considered the weakest one and I still think it is right you know we have a long way to go well one thing that's striking about the case to me is just how much when you talk to uh prosecutors and other legal experts that Trump is being treated differently than any other defendant that would be in a similar case which is that the amount of gag orders he's facing the amount of reprimands from the judge for attacking you know prosecutors for attacking uh family members of the judge all of that you know a similar defendant would probably already be in a Cell in jail right right and and Trump isn't at all Peter um ended on on on this question um do you think that this might actually be the only Trump trial we see before November obviously there's supreme court issues that we're we're watching but is this is this it I think as we end the week as we end the week that's what it looks like this is the one trial we're going to have completed by uh election day and that the Supreme Court's deliberations this week were very interesting very important we can talk about that but the core uh takeaway from that is it's likely to continue to drag out before long before the election we won't see a trial on that one until next year quickly Trump's tactic is delay and on that one he's succeeding his strategy is also to undermine faith in the justice system and I think he's probably making some Headway there but look Democrats have a DEX mcka problem around Trump they think that Robert Mueller was going to save them now they think you know Jack Smith will save them prosecutors and judges are not going to determine Trump's fate voters will and voters know Trump and voters are deciding based on what they know already no it's a very good point it's been a great conversation thank you very much unfortunately we need to leave it there for now I want to thank our panelists for joining us and for sharing their reporting and you can read Elena plot calabro's profile of speaker Mike Johnson at theatlantic.com I'm Jeffrey Goldberg good night from Washington corporate funding for Washington Week with the Atlantic is provided by Consumer Cellular this is Sam how may help you this is a pocket dial well somebody's pocket thought I'd let you know that with Consumer Cellular you get Nationwide coverage with no contract that's kind of our thing have a nice day certified financial planner professionals are proud to support Washington week with the Atlantic cfp professionals are committed to acting in their clients best interest more information at letsmakeaplan.org additional funding is provided by K and Patricia Yuan for the UN Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities Sandra and Carl delay Magnuson Rose hsel and Andy shres Robert and Susan rosenbom the corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you [Music] [Music]

Channel: Washington Week PBS

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Length: 26min 37sec (1597 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 27 2024