Was I wrong about medieval leather armor? Responding to my critics

this episode of shadow versity is brought to you by Swords of my to the official shadow versity Affiliate sponsor swords of might is one of the very best online retailers for all your Saudi fun awesome blade heed Saudi stuff needs things sword that was her own pitch but anyway I'm gonna keep going because that's what I do have a very extensive range and awesome attitude of always showing that they items that they a display on the website are in stock and available so if you are in a position where you want to buy a sword please use the affiliate link in the description below so you'd be supporting chata versity without spending any more money and getting the very same sword that you were wanting to get in the first place [Music] greetings i'm shad and i've said for a good couple of years now that I would much rather know the truth then be rights and so that simply means if I'm wrong about something I'd rather be wrong and know the truth and be corrected than to continue on in ignorance I say this in the very trailer to this YouTube channel and there has been many instances in the past where people have presented sound logic and evidence that has persuaded me that I've been wrong about things but it takes that okay sound logic reason and evidence and when it's clear to see that I'm wrong well it's easy to accept it in fact I am more than happy to so with that in light I hope you can see that I'm not necessarily a pushover when it comes to my views okay if I think someone's counter-argument is flawed and doesn't answer all the points that I have of course I will defend my views and explain why I think they are wrong and as interesting how many of those things that will come down to a difference of opinion and I could show that it comes down to an opinion based thing with logic reason and evidence many people can remain passionately convinced that I am spreading misinformation and that I'm not a reliable source on the topics that I talk about well I always encourage people to look into things themselves and try and substantiate any of the things that I say don't take my word as gospel ever but I try my best and if I get things wrong along the way well I do my best corrected which is what brings us to the subject of this video some people have disagreed with my views and the way I've expressed my views regarding the prominence and prevalence of leather armor in the medieval period now I have heard some of the arguments the people of proposed regarding my views on leather armor in certain random comments I just happened to see but I've not been fully convinced of their arguments to this point and one of the reasons that I think they love flooring the logical the evidence wasn't there but I'm certainly open to listening to them but I can't reply to every single comment because that would be a full-time job but when someone goes to particular effort to really outline a solid argument with that sources listed and things like that that's where I feel it's appropriate to make an official response which is what this video is a Reddit user by the name of her Grimm has posted a article on the subreddit bad history I think it was according to memory accusing me of being categorically wrong in my views of leather armor and spreading misinformation and being an unreliable source overall or just generally not overall everything but generally unreliable and he actually raises some really interesting points that I want to go through in detail so I'll link to the reddit article in the description below and I have confidence that you guys will be civil okay because the community here on shadow diversity actually awesome you guys are awesome and I faith in you to keep remaining and being awesome don't attack the guy or anything like that and in any way I'm going to be addressing his arguments here I won't be putting up autographic sin this video because this is a more in-depth just discussion between me my viewers and also her Grimm sorry from pronouncing it wrong but he opens up his article with this I recently been thinking a lot about the medieval Western European use of leather armor and the counterculture pop historian trend of denying its existence beyond limb armor now I pause there because that's already been taken out of context in regards to what I have said in particular on limb armor but as you're referring to me well yes quite specifically because in the next sentence he continues since a diversity is one of the worst offenders in this regard especially when it comes to arrogantly asserting his case with poorly thought-out port experiments and also one of the most popular apps I appreciate that you think I'm popular I don't appreciate the arrogant thing but I guess that comes down to personal opinion if you want to think I'm Eragon that's fine but bringing it up in an argument that's a bit immature actually because it basically ad hominem I mean if you want to state I'm arrogant that really has no relevance to the argument at here and what you're actually trying to do is to vilify me admittedly very very minor ly okay people have said much meaner things about me on the internet and this is the only you know negative or derogatory thing he says about me an entire article so because most of it is void of that I can overlook it and you know just all right so yeah you think I'm arrogant and then he aims this paragraph I thought I'd tackle his videos on the subject now the main thing that I have a problem with in this stamen is that I deny the existence of leather armor beyond limb armor and this is contradicted explicitly by my very own words in the videos now he references to video specifically why gambeson is way better than leather armor and my previous video before then the truth about the gambeson a curtain and leather armor so since the main point of his reddit article is to establish the existence of leather armor something that I have not denied at all in fact that I have also said leather armor did exist as to the prevalence of it that's something would that we disagree on but is taking the stance that I have flat-out denied its existence beyond lynn armor he is mostly arguing against a straw man in this discussion a straw man is a misrepresentation and oftentimes a oversimplification of someone else's opinions or counter-argument to what they're saying but to the assertion that I've ever said that leather armor doesn't exist outside of limb protection there that's a complete misrepresentation because leather armor did exist in some cases I talk about it more in my original video so I'll let you have a look at that so I can save time here in the clip that I just showed I say explicitly that leather armor did exist in the medieval period and I give a single example from as a picture and also text of limb and armor ok you know there are leather braces and such but at no point did I say it was limited to that ever and in my first video on this subject I also point out additional examples of leather armor existing specifically lamellar and also buff coats they they're outside the medieval period but I have said it on several occasions explicitly that leather armor did exist ok and in the medieval period I haven't found many cases documenting authentic leather armor being used in the medieval period did I say I'd found no cases of authentic leather armor being used in the medieval period no I said I had not found many meaning that I was aware of the few cases in which leather armor is documented to exist the medieval period which is an explicit acknowledgment on my part that leather armor did exist in the medieval period now having said that I've expressed the opinion fairly emphatically that I don't think it was very common and clearly I need to elaborate on that a bit more the evidence that some people have watched my videos and gotten the impression that I'm saying that leather armor didn't exist in the medieval period is proven by the fact that the author of this reddit post has that view as well I would encourage them to pay a bit more attention to my specific wording because the main thing that I'm trying to debunk is the Hollywood fantasy depiction of leather armor in the medieval period specifically studded leather and also thin the flappy you know pieces of leather put together in this fantasy style and that's the type of leather that I say is a load of bull leather armor as we conventionally think of it as depicted in medieval movies and stuff is generally a load of bull didn't actually exist in in the way that's showing and when I've made statements like this I have just taken for granted that people would realize when I say that it didn't exist in this way that that statement is clearly indicating that it did exist in other ways just not the way that Hollywood generally depicts it but I guess I just need to be a bit clearer and then there's the way I express my views on the comparison between leather armor and its main contender and the one I have an obvious a personal bias to gambeson I make a very strong statement in my video why gamers in his way stronger than leather armor where I go through a logical process looking at the availability of the materials the ease of manufacturing and also the repair ability of the two types of armor that with those things in mind it would be absolutely ridiculous to make a piece of armor out of leather it would be absolutely ridiculous to make a piece of armor out of leather in this context now when I say that I'm not saying it's ridiculous to make armor out of leather in every single circumstance in the context that I rip mentioned specifically in the comparison in that context I do still feel it is ridiculous because of how cost to fake and stuff like that but if the parameters would change someone for instance you have a soldier okay he might be a mercenary or whatever he has some you know animals livestock they generally always have a plot of land okay that they're growing some type of veggies a veggie garden stuff like that in the medieval period and it's not outside of their own possibility I might have a beast of burden a cow okay and if that cow reached the end of his life he wouldn't kill the cow just to get the leather to make arm and that's stupid okay but if the cow reach the end of its life then it would be a waste to not use the hide for something again if he already s shoes and he's in a position where he needs armor and he can't in it I'll come back to the tanning thing because that's the more specialized tasks in and of itself but if he has the ease or ability to turn it into thick leather and it's appropriate for armor he now has it and it's cheaper and more available than the other so of course why not make some army out of that if he felt it was just as effective and there are certain circumstances where leather armor is easily as effective as gambeson but I think gambeson still overall has bet more beneficial properties now with that in mind there will be of course other circumstances in which leather would be a more practical conclusion to make armor out of dependent on availability resources but in a general overview I do not think that is the case now her Grimm he challenges me on a couple things and this is where I think it's going to be a bit more interesting as to the availability the difficulty in manufacturing and also the cost because those are significant elements that would change my conclusion in any regard I think my opinion and stance on leather armor if that it did exist in the medieval period is easily defensible by you know video record of what I have actually said but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of MIS speaking and not expressing my views as clearly as I would have liked or hoped and so I went back to my videos where he watched and double check to make sure did I ever you know miss speak and the closest thing in which I've come to miss speaking on this subject was not the videos that is even referring to so I don't even think has even seen this one but it's when I'm addressing this subject in a collaboration between a couple of other creators within YouTube you know evil cranes and stuff now in that video I say this was leather armor a thing in the medieval period well to give you the broad flat answer no it wasn't I apologize for miss speaking but I think I can validate myself because at the very end of that same video I say this and these are the reasons why leather it wasn't really a prevalent meaning it still existed but wasn't prevalent now I can see how someone could you know mistake my over emphasis on that subject so for that I absolutely apologize and so her chrome continues in his reddit post and he begins to summarize what he feels my main opinions are about leather armor the first one being that I think there's no evidence filleth armor which I hope I have just you know contradicted categorically because leather armor did exist in some cases no rather what I said was this but then it kind of stops alright when you hit the medieval period there aren't many historical examples of authentic leather armor now of course I can come down to the fact that it's leather it's organic and it breaks down it doesn't survive time very well but we're also talking about historical artworks and things like that the leather armor is not really featuring a lot you see Garrison's but you don't really see the leather armor thing and that bit at the end where I say you don't really see that leather armor thing what I'm actually saying which is identified by the context of everything else that I'm referring to is that you don't really see leather armor as a prominent thing so his next point is that he thinks that I feel that leather armor would be more expensive than textile armor and I've learned a bit more on that subject that'll be an interesting one and that that a poor peasant would want to buy a gambeson so that they have something to wear with their mail if they can afford it and so the bulk of the actual article now is him proving with you know certain sources here and there of references to leather armor that's great right good to see I I don't disagree and he concludes this section with this statement what we can say though he is that it meaning leather armor was quite widespread I don't think we can say that not from the evidence that is put forward all that does establish is that leather armor did exist in a medieval period but not how prevalent it was and you might say ah but look at all the references he lists that that's not a lot of rep foresters in regards to all the references we have to all the types of armor in the medieval period it's actually rather few but what about the linguistic evidence in the origin and meaning of they you know term queer ass now queer ass is the French word essentially for a breastplate okay and it generally refers to a metal breastplate in the modern day but the queer in it is also the root and connected thing with cure in English cure curing leather or also just means translates into leather and so a cure ass is a breast plate or a protective covering something you wear made out of leather or hide clearly indicating if that's the kind of plate protective you know breast plate that people wore at some point before metal was around was originally made out of leather but that doesn't mean it was prominent or particularly common it just means there was a word identifying its existence now you might say why don't you apply that logic to everything in the medieval period anything that you have ever done solved you can't say how prevalent it was well we have other things in regarding gambeson that help us establish a baseline of how prevalent it was and that's a frequency in which it appears in artwork and also in archaeological remains and this is one of the reasons why I still think leather armor it was less prominent the medieval period and actually feel it's confirmed when you look at practical examples of just the advantages between the two materials and also cost which we'll get to in a second now I have even said in my own videos that leather doesn't preserve too well it's an organic material breaks down so I wouldn't expect to find many remains yet having said that we do have you know archaeological remains of leather items from the medieval period and rather a large abundance shoes leather straps sword scabbards belt and items of clothing not not armor but items of leather clothing and those archaeological remains are in greater abundance then the archaeological remains we have of leather armor and I've never said there were no archaeological remains of leather armor from the medieval period I said this but then it kind of stops all right when you hit the medieval period there aren't many historical examples of authentic leather armor I said there wasn't many and that is very true there aren't many at all in fact the only archeological piece of Leonard chest armor specifically that I found that dates from the medieval period is this piece right here this artifact is referenced in a paper that I found entitled a poor man's armor late medieval leather armor from excavations in the Netherlands I'll try and find the link for it and put it in the description below there is another piece that people tend to try inside but this one is actually too thin to be real leather armor and people have concluded that it was actually sewn on top of something else like linen cloth or whatever but it basically it was the top of a garment and it could have been armor in that instance but by itself no it's not thick enough to be armor now could it be that leather armor was as prominent as say games and other pieces of armor in the medieval period and most of the archaeological remains have just been deteriorate over time and they don't exist anymore far more so than the other leather pieces that have survived as some reason the armor just got the you know attack of time more so is that more likely or is it more likely that it just wasn't as prevalent because the contrasting bitterness is the artistic evidence okay now there is artistic evidence of leather armor but it is not very much okay what is more likely is it more likely that leather armor just was ignored artistically more so than other armors and in the actual medieval period it was as prominent or is it more likely that it simply wasn't as prominent I think the latter is the more likely conclusion and the references to leather armor that we have from historical sources and in linguistic origins okay is just the actual acknowledgement that it did exist but that doesn't you know reference to the actual prevalence of it so the conclusion that her Grimm reaches at this section of the article that leather armor was widespread in the medieval period I disagree with I think that's a fairly big assumption but what do we mean by widespread because perhaps we're just getting our contextualization of widespread differently okay if he is saying widespread in the sense that art and I 10% of the armor of the medieval period you could likely expect to find to be leather armor and everyone knew that it existed and he thinks that's widespread well then would probably agree okay because yeah that's that's possible okay but when I hear widespread I generally think that it's the more prominent type at least 50% on most of the people using it and her room also seems to you know indicate fairly you know explicitly is that leather armor is the cheaper type of armor that people could make therefore it was the entry-level armor that the average soldier wore that last part that is therefore the entry-level part that's an extrapolation I make from his belief and statement that leather armor was cheaper and if it was cheaper that would make sense but I don't think it is okay if we're saying widespread that everyone knew it existed we can agree here I do not think I was widespread in the sense that it was the most prominent type and all the cheapest type that the most soldiers wore no no no no I hadn't I completely disagree with that view I think gambeson is still the best and cheapest entry level now let me explain why it's cheap because hair groom actually goes to some pretty impressive sources listing a cost of linen in the medieval period and the cost of leather and he gives some sources some Italian sources as well the problem is okay because I this actually this honestly made me question myself like alright he might have a point here but I need a double check everything and look if when I double-checked it and I confirmed what he was saying I would withdraw my opinion on this and I might have to reassess my views is later I'm a far more prominent than what I'm willing to acknowledge but as I looked further into it there is a very significant point that has to be raised in the discussion of the cost of linen and all honesty it's not one that I have even brought up because even in my other videos I think I'm more generally saying that linen is just cheap which it that so I misspoke there I'll correct myself in that regard no okay linen can be quite expensive and it can be quite cheap depending on how it's made this question was actually answered for me by Professor Greg eldress II in his lecture on a padded type armor and for Classical period okay you know ancient Greece I'll link to his article in the description below it's really good because that got questioned between what about leather or you know textile armor comes up in that discussion in the exact same context now he doesn't state a particular view as to which was more prevalent in a Classical period like I am saying in the medieval period which I am drawn to this conclusion base on logic evidence in my own thought processes but he does certainly address the cost thing and so I'll let him explain this for us sometimes the idea of linen armor is questioned or challenged on the grounds that linen was expensive and hard to obtain and it is true that certain linens had a reputation as being somewhat of a luxury fabric in the ancient world there were places such as Egypt which were renowned for producing expensive very fine linen for the high-end market however there were a lot of course linens floating around as well the flax plant from which linen is made was cultivated in nearly every region of the met rayon from Spain to the Near East even in quite unlikely places such as Germany linen is one of the oldest and most widely used textiles there finds from Israel Anatolia and Syria that date to at least 7,000 BC ancient sources praised flax for the ease with which it can be grown its ability to flourish even in marginal environments and linens of varying quality and fineness of weave were mass-produced and used for an array of even humble purposes such as fishing nets clothing curtains tents bandages and sails basic linens were a standard project manufactured in many perhaps most ordinary households by their female members and these sort of coarse linens would have been nearly bic wa tiss in the ancient world and fairly cheap another leading candidate by the way for type 4 armors leather and the argument that often seems to rest on a belief that leather would be cheaper and more available than linen rather than being based on really solid textual evidence but if you look at things like diocletian's price edict and other price lists the leather of the appropriate sort that's a very thick type that's derived from the back of an oxen and that's what's best for making armor that was very expensive leather unlike linen which could have been produced entirely by the members of a typical household armor quality leather would probably require the specialist services of a tanner and would probably have to have been bought certainly in some regions where cattle were common and therefore leather was common I think people would have used this for armor but in many other regions it would have been quite rare if you go online and search for hand-spun hand-woven linen you can find a lot of it but if you look into it a little bit deeper you'll find that most of that hand-spun hand-woven Livan has actually been made from flax plant plants that were machined processed and treated with modern chemicals which actually changes the composition of the textile our hand-woven hand-spun hand processed linens consistently performed 10 to 15 percent better than modern linen and at first this puzzled us and eventually figure out what's going on is that flax fibers in the plant are encased in a kind of waxy pectin estate ryx and if you process that in traditional ways some of that waxy gumminess survives and when you process it by modern chemical means all of that stripped away and so our authentic slabs had a slight gummy texture which ended up substantially increasing the protection they offered to the wearer so the authentic linen was definitely better than the modern one so that is really interesting linen can be made in a much cheaper way and in fact the cheap type of linen is better for armor production that is significant you know because the wax thing and stuff like that in it it also is more coarse okay if you ever handled you know unrefined linen it's very coarse and stronger as a result and the fact that it gets stronger when it's wet is another big bonus benefit for the linen on top of that and on top of this you also have the fact that leather comes from many different types of animals and then even from the same animal it still has different levels of quality and at the best type of leather that makes good armor comes from a certain part on the cow is significant but I don't think that means you couldn't make leather out of the other parts of the cow like you know rawhide is pretty tough but you wouldn't want to make leather outta Pig height or anything like that and funny pigs were grown and slaughtered at a much higher frequency than cattle in the medieval period because people ate pork far more than a beef and then when looking through some of these forums I've actually found some quotes from tenors I get people actually you know tan leather who have pointed out that the age of the cow also determines the quality of the leather when you kill it and the optimal age in which you'll want to kill a cow to get the best armored quality leather from it is well before it has reached the end of its usefulness in the medieval period as I have mentioned in one of my other videos is that a cow is a very useful thing for milk and also as a beasts of burden and so in most cases you are going to use that cow until it dies of natural resource get as much use out of it as possible and then you're in a position to use the letter but that leather is not in the most optimal state to make armor out of anymore that's it that's interesting and again it's another point as to why leather might not be the best pick as an Armour I'm not saying it wasn't but I think in the general you know comparison between the two you get more benefits out of gambeson in a general sense I think there might be some specific circumstances where hardened leather into like some kind of solid thick plate like a bit of hard plastic could probably be more beneficial than gambeson by garrison has more beneficial properties overall in a general sense now I'm not saying that gambeson is cheaper than leather armor in every instance no okay you're gonna of course make it out of more expensive linen okay and in fact there are some examples of Gambon's being made out of silk that would be very expensive but the armor that's going to be most prevalent in the medieval period is the armor that's cheapest worn by the regular soldier because what type of soldier comprises the bulk out of most armies it's the regular average Joe soldier and linen is more prevalent and more easily accessible to the average medieval person then leather is now I'm not saying leather isn't easily accessible I'm just saying linen is more easily accessible ancient sources praised flats for the ease with which it can be grown its ability to flourish even in marginal environments and linens of varying quality and fineness of weave were mass-produced and used for an array of even humble purposes and in actual fact most you know housewives and stuff like that in regards to these standard medieval skills that housewives you know needed weaving thread and making cloth seems to be one of them tanning on the other hand not so much that requires some more specialized skills and equipment the average soldier generally will have the means to make his own Jamison or his wife you know good old good old women don't know in the job for the guys no G even that could be considered sexist it day and age hey I know my wife would be more than happy to make me again listen cuz I'm mainly I suck as sewing you know it's just I don't thank guys and generally we don't like the sewing stuff anyways let's move on at an area guard I think my point still stands at the average housewife in the medieval period has the capacity to produce the materials to make gambeson more so than leather armor but if that were just if they're outsourcing and just pot buying the materials okay it does seem that cheap linen is more affordable than the type of leather you would need to make good quality leather armor and I think this is also confirmed by the fact that the artwork that shows leather armor that we can identify seems to be worn by Knights you don't see the average soldier wearing what we can clearly identify as leather armor there are some examples of things that might be leather armor like that is this shot from the Morgan Bible but that's 50 that that could be leather armor or it could be really thick gambeson in all honesty and even the possible bits of evidence that exists outside of our work for instance there is this effigy in which there's a breastplate underneath the knight Sir code and that breastplate could be leather there's no way to prove it Batman is possible yet if it is it's still being worn by a knight which does seem to indicate that leather armor when used as armor requires the more expensive type to make effective leather armor out of it and it's more expensive to process that the rich were the ones who could afford it and again going back to the peasant thing the peasants will already have linen available out of linen for sheets they'll have linen for their own clothing stuff I haven't if it in a position where they need armor on the really cheap okay and they happen to have a couple of shirts they generally didn't have like a Wardrobe full of clothing but if they could get their hands on a few shirts from you know people selling other shares stuff like that and this you know sew them together as you know thick as possible and they have a you know jury-rigged gambeson right they're made out of secondhand clothing and the reddit article then challenges me on my views on the repair ability of you know gambeson and his main point is that it'll be way too expensive because he feels that gambeson was expensive but I think we have you know B now to contradict that point that gambeson could be made out of much cheaper materials and when it is made out of much for cheap materials that validates the repair ability of it and even if you were to disregard at the cost associated which I don't think it would be as much as leather armor it comes to the thing of how effectively you can actually repair leather armor or gambeson when you saw linen together it bunches up together making a pretty solid kind of connection that if a sword tried to you know get through the gap it's still going to be caught on the lunar either side like I was hitting solid linen but with leather if you oh you'd have to overlap it a bit which would make sewing a bit but then they'll still be kind of gaps in between it simply put much harder to patch leather armor than it is a gambeson drastically sorry and the patchwork wouldn't be as effective as when it was in its solid state but the patchwork you can do on a gambeson restores its defensive value significantly the author of the reddit article does try to explore the effectiveness of leather armor versus gambeson and he's obviously taking their point of view that he thinks out leather armor is superior gambeson I disagree okay I don't think the evidence that he brought to substantiate his views that wasn't enough to convince me her group mentions that he found a test in which leather arm perform better than gambeson and it's interesting because there are many tests which gambeson performs better than leather and sorry obviously there are certain parameters which change up the effectiveness at the level of layers in the gambeson obviously is one the thing that was pointed out in the lecture that I linked below the type of linen used will also affect how you know strong it is defensively this is also kind of beside the point because I've always said that they are very comparable leather and you know yeah again what's in my video I mentioned leather can stop arrows but also gambeson her Grimm seems to imply that gambeson won't stop arrows which is incorrect it sometimes will and sometimes all won't depending on circumstances which is the same as leather armor as well her Grimm does mention that in the test that he is referencing hardened leather or cui bully demonstrated a quite well that it could significantly reduce the impact of blows when worn over some type of adding compared to when there's just the padding but again depends how much padding and I'm not saying there aren't circumstances which led that hardened leather and gammas in a beneficial and that also doubles up the cost okay and if you can just add a few more layers to your gambeson and reach the same defensive value that leather and gambeson was providing you would reach it out a lower cost and therefore why would you get the leather armor interesting he mentions the test that i reference often about you know the mic loads video clip that stops the air ahead and he says that even my clothes has acknowledged that it didn't stop other arrowheads and that that's fine I've never said that gambeson is completely impenetrable to arrow fire just that it can resist arrow fire in turn so obsesses so it doesn't really contradict my point that you know I generally make certain things that we thought would also matter didn't turn out to be so important one thing that does matter is the angle that was shot at most of our shots were at a worst-case scenario 90 degrees just straight in but on a real battlefield the armor is curved people would have been moving arrows would have been coming in from an angle and so not only would the arrow of had to penetrate a thicker expanse of armor if it hits an angle but we found an unexpected benefit of this form of armor is that when an arrow came in an angle the tip of the arrow would almost get caught by the layers and start to divert between the layers so it almost be magically turned away from your body as it burrowed between two layers and expended its energy that way rather than penetrating straight through this next point is one that other people brought up and is worth acknowledging and it's when in my first video I say that you and I Segre fairly explicitly so to explicitly a in retrospect I feel I should correct this and add more context what I'm saying here and I basically say that you would always want to get gambeson because you always wear it under mail specifically you always need some type of padding under the mail you don't always need it okay in fact just wearing a linen shirt and stuff like that would prevent the pinching and the chafing but does that mean you would not want some type of padding under the mail in my own opinion I feel you would always at least want mail is not necessary in every circumstance of course you can wear mail without the padding but you lose a very significant defensive parameter in this regard and thus defense against blunt-force blows okay mail does not prevent you know blunt trauma going through bones can be still be broken under mail if there's no padding in between so padding is very beneficial and this is where people have then brought up and said the gambeson that you would wear under mail would never be as thick as a gambeson that would be made to be defensible by itself without mail there was a big difference in the thickness I agree but also disagree I think it's both we can't definitively say that no one ever wore a fully thick gambeson under mail I'm willing to bet money on the fact that someone in the past did it okay there are many circumstances in which fully thick gambeson would be worn under mail for instance if they had nothing else okay didn't have the half thin one but they wanted some measure of protection against blunt force well of course they would use whatever they had and put it under their mail and then there's the fact that some people might actually want that extreme level of protection okay I fully think gambeson that is very likely defend against you know slashes pieces and bow shots and everything like that it's good defending against blunt force and then mail on top of that increases the protection to a very high level you think no one in history would ever say they want that protection yes it'll be more bulky would be hard to move in but you think no one ever did it at all no I think that's a disingenuous position I'm sure someone in the past must have done it does that mean I think it was done more often than not well I do imply that in my first video and I I'm happy to admit that's incorrect there's no way to know if it was the most prominent way to do it and in actual fact of order if I was to make a call on what is probably more likely the Finney gambeson sworn under the mail are probably more likely of course Garrison's worn over mail and the author of the reddit article emphasizes that point quite a lot and it almost like a-- maybe I'm misreading this one because you know a big article was he implying that gambeson was never worn under mail because that is incorrect of course gambeson was born under mail in fact one of his own sources that he listened his own thing explicitly says that gambeson is worn under mail not in every instance of course but it's European armor by Claude Blair and he states both that is worn over armor and air many cases of it being won Under Armour as well and sorry if it's worn over armor well then they get the padding and defense as well as the defense against piercing tax and stuff like that and in that instance well of course they would only need some light you know linen or whatever underneath the mouth to event pinching and other things like that and am I saying that no one ever wore male on the bisque you know I'm not saying that either because just as likely as someone wearing thick gambeson with male on top of that it's obviously just as likely that someone somewhere in history didn't have a shirt but they got their hands on male and just wore male on bare skin of course it's very likely to have happened at some point in the past so this has been a very long video but I wanted to show my respect to her groom by addressing each and every one of his points in his rebuttal I love that hey grim and people like him go to the effort of making these really thought-out arguments and rebuttals and discussions stuff like that because we're all after the same thing you want to know what the truth was and even in the end if I haven't convinced her groom of my own opinions and we have a difference of opinion that's fine okay we can have a difference of opinion I appreciate her Grimm for taking the time to want to discuss these things and of course I appreciate you for listening in watching this video please remember to subscribe if you want to learn more about medieval stuff and also the times when I look at how its integrated into pop culture movies TV shows and video games and click the bell notification if you don't want to miss an episode or video I hope to see you there and until that time [Music]

Channel: Shadiversity

Views: 640,959

Keywords: gambeson, armor, armour, medieval, middle ages, leather, cuirie, cuirass, cuir bouilli, reddit, shadiversity, bad history, aketon, european, history, historical, accuracy, fantasy, dungeons and dragons, studded leather, linen, textile, skyrim, dnd, d&d, game of thrones, sword, swords, knight, knight's, castle, castles, hema, reenactment, padded, hardened leather, responce, reply, soldier, archeological, evidance

Id: Ej38Lv1Kglk

Length: 36min 59sec (2219 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 31 2018