Shadiversity DESTROYS lies of archery critics with FACTS and LOGIC! Reply to NUSensei & Ian Coote

[Music] readings I'm Chad and this is a rather important follow-up video in regards to the other videos I've made recently on the topic of medieval archery you see those videos are being met with a great amount of positivity which is really encouraging but there is a minority of sceptics who are you know vehement ly disagreeing to the point of promoting flat-out lies about this thing to discredit the style and even discredit me as well and those things really need to be addressed yeah some of you have said why I even bother responding to critics and my answer is sometimes makes great videos but also I do want to clear up the misconceptions that these critics are spreading because this minority in the archery community and I neither emphasizes it is a minority okay and they represent the community very poorly because most people I've interacted with in you know about historical Oishi everything have been awesome and they're really interesting stuff and even if they disagree they're happy to disagree amicably and at least represent both sides of the argument fairly and it's this minority that needs to be exposed basically for what they're doing in the lies that they're trying to spread about it and they're not just trolls either some of them are more prominent members of the archery community with larger voices and others are people who are well respected with a lot of experience under their belt so in addition to those reasons as to why I'm making this video it also reveals a rather insidious kind of side - I guess the archery community but I think it applies more broadly and it speaks about the notion the idea of elitism and gatekeeping and how people resort to belittling other people's kind of ideas and experimentation just in a very mean-spirited way that chase people away from their community literally harm their community with their own behavior there's been a lot of people have actually reached out to me sharing with me that they've lost interest in archery because they were told that they were doing it the wrong way and they shouldn't do it the way that they started doing instinctively which is actually shooting on the right and there's a strict way and all this authoritarianism Ally ISM gatekeeping stuff like that has just served to drive people away from the interest is very unfortunate and it should be exposed because it is extreme in some areas I know from personal experience I need to share it with you and also address the lies so what are the lies that people have been spreading well one of the largest ones responses has been no one ever said that you know shooting on the right was impossible so stop trying to sprawl man in the situation when no know people literally have been saying it's impossible I've shared direct quotes in my own video and they weren't just trolls some of them were people we have a lot of experience and I'll share a large example from one of the larger critics now there's no point beating around the bush one of the largest skeptics in regards to the response to my videos is new sensei we have a bit of a history but new is actually being one of the more respectful critics in response to this some of the other people have been just downright derogatory and belittling well they can't even propose a solid argument and they resort to name-calling and ridicule okay so it actually happens and again I'll show you examples of this mead longbows has this awesome video where he tests this for himself at a fall bun where he tests it with a bit of speed shooting and it's just great and then of course you have our men who shows different techniques to make it more effective you have the videos by three and his fallout one is great where he actually shows that he can draw it back further with this style on the right then compared to on the left these are brilliant videos I'll also link the ones that I am rebutting please don't attack me personally if you have issues with his arguments like I do attack his arguments okay not him personally let's keep it as respectful as we can because new has been respectful far more so than other people who have been trying to challenge my recent videos but before I get to new sensei and share a bit of the history because we actually have been getting along much better recently than in the past and also to correct some of the timeline confusion people having grants that let me just kind of share some of the examples of what has been happening among certain circles for instance Fame 3 and he reached out to me was interested in this style and wanted to do a collaboration video I thought that was a great idea where he tested it in himself and then he shared it with a prominent Longbow Facebook group and their responses were pathetic people say this is literally the dumbest HIC crap I've ever seen people do with a bar that's not an argument okay that's just an insult and it is actually disregarding the valid evidence Wren was proposing in that then they would just miss her at some people saying why would you want to try this when you're just gonna the string is going to hit your arm every time you shoot it when yeah the string hit friend's arm once but not any other time in his demonstrations and they completely ignored my contribution in that video where it never hit my arm and yet people literally representing this style of archery that it's going to inherently always hit you know I slap your forearm if you try it which is absolute bullcrap it's completely false all right and by the way the string hits your arm quite a lot when you shoot the conventional way with the arrow on the other side and so by their logic that should involved a t' that style of archery too and you shouldn't even bother that so no it's complete bull crap but that's what they latched onto so why would they say something that is so demonstrably false regarding this method this comment e gives a time stamp saying all I need to see trying to say that because the string hit friends arm once that prove this style was flawed it's all utter and complete garbage it's not true seriously it's like people see this new style as a threat to their own credibility because they've either said it's impossible or wrong or flawed in previous circumstances and now they feel that any validity to it is a threat to their credibility so they are looking for anything anything at all that they can latch on to but try and disprove it no matter how disingenuous or flawed being willing to fully misrepresent the facts and the evidence that has been shown and they do this in multiple instances where they take one small thing here or there which is not representative of the whole style at all and then inflate it trying to say that this is an inherent problem it's pathetic and shows such a prefer and confirmation bias that these people are not approaching this honestly they of course tried to disregard the validity of medieval art works saying that you shouldn't really take it seriously because there are silly things in medieval art which is the same argument I've heard over and over and I really just my video which shows they didn't even watch my full video but this was in response to threads once I granted so when seeing that I mean and seeing the way that they were treating 3-inch video and work like I entered into the fray and I was a bit cheeky admittedly because I was meeting their level of respect that they were showing but I didn't call anyone names I attacked argument and I attacked them aggressively and all boy did they not like that especially the admin and by the way this is a public Facebook group so I'm not daxing anyone by sharing these things right the admin Ian coot couldn't stand being challenged and we argued back and forth you know quite extensively on a number of different topics and his argument degenerated into basically no you're stupid I'm right because of experience and you're a condescending tit in idiot and a joke and other things like that's what he was called me and I mean I told him to grow up because it was behaving like a child and I said his arguments were pathetic but I never called him a name specifically but still because I was arguing with him and what's interesting after you know the friends post I actually posted a question to just the people in community because some of them had really good things to share and if they've got good things to share I want to learn it and so I posted perfectly respectable you know new commenting completely separate but of course good old Ian he came in swinging saying pull your head in all you're gonna get banned it and I I didn't do anything you know challenge anyone I was just asking and I was like hang on why are you coming in here acting like that I'm actually being quite respectful I can show you the comment thread here because you know he's deleted by the way and since then also banned me from the group because he has such thin skin it's amazing and this is the type of authoritarian elitist gatekeepers that exist in some of the communities group than the example being the archery community where they can't you know tackle the the debate honestly or not willing to or just don't have much experience in debate and so that was a bit of fun but it reveals an unfortunate reality but what does deserve to be done is for me to address their criticisms and objections and arguments as honestly as I wish they would have addressed my own and one of the best examples of someone who has put forward basically most of the arguments that he repeated repeated is new sensei in one of his recent videos and by addressing that video I'll really be addressing most of the criticisms that were raised in the Facebook page in other areas around the internet and stuff because a lot of people have I've been parroting what News tried to establish in his own video but before I get into that I do need to share some of the timeline because there's a lot of misunderstanding about what went really down between me and knew in the past a long time ago I made a video about archery and we did a response that I felt most of his criticisms were invalid and taking me out of context I shared that in a comment that upset him he was offended by what I was saying in the comment because he got so much wrong I actually felt that it it felt like he was purposefully trying to misrepresent what I say or not look for the truth in what I was saying and only look for where there was errors and he really took offense at that and he proceeded to make two additional videos where it was basically targeting me attacking me I have an unhealthy dislike of Chad over 30 and really taking me out of context even further and I had not made a reply video and sold that third video where I had had enough and because I was being attacked unfairly and so I made my infamous reply video where I was calling him an idiot or a troll in the title now the interesting thing about that most people who watch the video and saw the evidence I was proposing guess what they saw that I was completely in the rights of my response and you know who else has agreed with that knew himself okay he apologized he apologized to me and has admitted my response was valid and that he was in the wrong and this is what he said to me because since then we've actually been sending emails privately and I'll get to that as a bit of a story and this video is going to be going into a lot of depth here so buckle in get popcorn because it's gonna be a long one right so this is what news said to me in the email and by the way has already been quoting these emails and public forums already so he that he set the standard that is perfectly fine to share this in a public context and he said this the actions around the idiot or troll video were understandable it did become personal I admit that I was inadvertently twisting your content taking it out of context and using it for my agenda so when it was clear that I was in the wrong I remedied that likewise your video was also a personal attack and I think it was warranted and you are right to react negatively and aggressively to what I did okay and that's from knew himself and so that matter has been settled because I accepted his apology I took down my video you actually took down videos misrepresenting me and that was it and seriously new deserves credit for having admitted he was wrong and apologizing I was a very mature thing that he did my response was perfectly appropriate to what new had been saying about me which he has agreed with okay so that's done now we are at this new kind of evolution okay and I am NOT making this as a personal attack I'm attacking his arguments and logic because I vehemently disagree and feel he is misrepresented not purposefully but really misrepresented some things and inadvertently lied about other things as well inadvertently okay I'm not trying to ascribe malice to his actions here so I made my recent archery video secrets of the medieval longbow and Knuth made a pretty darn like flawed like flawed on so many levels reddit post in regards to it and nearly everything he was saying was incorrect in this reddit post now that really annoyed me because I can't stand people misrepresenting my actions what I believe and he didn't misrepresent me on to nearly as large level as previously but he was certainly false in many of his criticisms and I could have made a reply video then ripping that reddit post apart as it deserved but this is the thing all right I actually don't like YouTube drama right I don't like harming other people's lives are causing stress or anything like that I'm entitled to if they're attacking me I'm perfectly entitled to defend my own credibility okay and so if people actually don't want someone to defend their credibility don't engage in the first place and if knew was correct in his you know this reddit posted in that criticize me attacking me it would just build his credibility if he could prove it but he couldn't in fact most of his claims could be outrightly disproven so categorically and so instead of making a reply video I sent him in email okay and it's that launched off a fairly lengthy email exchange back and forth where we tried to bury the hatchet we'll resolve some of the issues and we got to a fairly good place now I'm wondering if I should actually release that email exchange so everyone can understand the context and what we talked about knew has already English parts of this email exchange in public forums online specifically Facebook's groups and stuff and so he set the standard that is perfectly fine with it being shared and I think it would help to give everyone the context of how things developed because I really address the reddit post in these exchanges and prove to him fairly strongly that so much what he said was completely incorrect and it was like pulling teeth but he grudgingly admitted I had a point in certain areas and so what you need to understand my more popular video doing the impossible in medieval archery was actually a subtle reply to news reddit post debunking and contradicting all the attacks that he was making against me but I didn't mention his name because I didn't want to send any hate his way so then why am i doing it now well new is continually engaging in the discussion making videos that are clearly you know responses to myself and others others as well not just myself but everyone who's been watching it knows that these are responses to myself and it's got at the point where the information has been presenting is sorry categorically wrong they it deserves a direct video to debunk these misconceptions thoroughly and completely and in the email exchange that's exactly what I said okay if he's wanting to you know engage in debate I'm going to respond all right that's just what happens now again it's not a personal thing and new has been very respectful in his videos is even avoided mentioning me at all even though it's obvious they are in response to me he even quotes me and several times throughout many of these videos but I want to thank knew for being very respectful not making it personal and that's what the purpose of this video is even though I will be attacking his arguments aggressively see there's a lot of contradictions in this video nu has made he's made a statement like this I want to remind people that we're here to progress a discussion ninety two argue he was right and who is wrong now I don't want to stop you specifically from experimenting it's something that can be done you want to try and make it work then feel free to do so I'm not gonna dictate what isn't is an artery but that is directly contradicted by the content of the video where he says stuff like this we can say with a high degree of certainty that this is the correct way to shoot a longbow and that there is no practical reason why someone would choose to shoot the opposite way with a Mediterranean drawl that really does seem to be dictating what is and isn't archery specifically historical medieval archery in this context now of course the admits in other parts of the video that sure some random person probably tried this some other time but then he so vehemently says that this is not a thing you know historically and perhaps his meaning prevalently but that is dictating what he thinks is an is an archery in historical context so there's so many contradictions and this is just I see it like the beginning one of it I object to the use of the term impossible draw that's been being used a lot recently firstly it's not an impossible draw it is possible I can do it other people can do it and we certainly didn't break any laws of time and space to do so so it is possible to physically execute this technique so when people are saying that it's impossible I don't think people are actually saying it is physically impossible in any way but they may be saying is that it may be impossible to do it well so these statements I really feel a very dishonest whether it was on purpose or inadvertently I'm not trying to make aspersions into his intentions here but they're very dishonest because it's in direct contradiction to what nu said himself on the matter look at what he said in the reddit post he said this style can not be done all right now he's trying to say that he meant it cannot be done effectively that's not what he wrote okay it is very clear what sorry it is very easy to understand the broader context in the way that is speaking he is meaning it very categorically in the way that this was written in the reddit post he is one of the most prominent people that said this was impossible and so the assertion that no one is saying it was impossible and that he never had that opinion is categorically wrong so when people are saying that it's impossible I don't think people are actually saying it is physically impossible in any way and what you need to understand in the context of the original reddit post he was saying that you can't even draw the arrow on the right without it falling off most of the time he said it cannot be done let alone shooting accurately and effectively he was one of the most prominent on saying you simply can't even draw it that's the whole purpose of my video them doing the impossible in fire tree was proving this statement wrong and many others just by lifting your thumb you can hold it on very easily but you don't even need the thumb up to be able to do it regularly reliably reliably with the arrow on the shaft as I'll dive into a bit later on in this video and what's really interesting and somewhat disappointing is that Nooh himself later has said that this is a perfectly viable technique in one of his later videos what does this conclude well it's a photo technique I can make it work and at 10 meters that seemed to be justice at Christmas while I was using a lot of the shooting yet but he never said that I was wrong or that I had said it wasn't or anything like that it's just flipped on it and made no correction at all and this video where he is you know stating and proclaiming sorry vehemently that it's now not impossible but less effective and not as good as the other way is still up still misleading people and that's the disappointing side to it because if now he does admit that this is a viable shooting method well I think it would be appropriate to try and correct the record a bit or at least admit in that video when he says it's viable to say yes oh I was misinformed when I was saying that it was less effective because the purpose of this video is not to say it's impossible but he endeavors very strongly to try and establish that it is nowhere near as effective as the conventional way that there are inherent problems that will cause it's a risk to injury that you have greater chances of injuring yourself shooting this way than other ways okay and also that there is no historical evidence for it he actually says that sorry we're going to get to it if we're making a straw man argument which people aren't actually saying then it kind of defeats all purpose of this discussion so the question shouldn't be whether it's possible but why is one method preferred over the other and so the claim saying that people said that this was an impossible style of archery is a straw man argument is just blatantly bullcrap because he was one of the very ones who was saying yet why is one method preferred over the other or to be bolder why is one method used and the other isn't this is also another very disingenuous thing to say because it's completely false okay it's another one of those lies and again I'm not saying is saying it purposefully but it is false it's a lie okay that no one shoots this way when there's a lot of people do what hundreds of people have reached out to me and shared with me look at the comments section of my impossible artery video and you will see so many people saying I've shot like this for years upon years one of the comments here with the Mediterranean grip specifically on the right side and so to say that the left sided or inside Mediterranean shooting method is used and the other is not it's just wrong it's false it is used myself included and so it's a very disingenuous way to try and establish that one is just universally accepted as the better way to do it but what really seems to be easy case in many artery circles is that that idea is accepted that there is a superior method and the all other methods are inferior and that's when they're actually willing to acknowledge that people do shoot the other way which it doesn't seem like new is willing to establish or contextualize in the very videos making here but there is a more traditional or conventional method for shooting with a Mediterranean grip and that is with the arrow on the left side why is that in my opinion competitive stationary target archery you see when the chances of winning a tournament versus losing losing is the distance of like that much okay and getting that much closer to center bull's eye pinpoint accuracy becomes far far more important and to achieve that level of pinpoint accuracy in my opinion I actually think you can get you can achieve it easier with the arrow on the left side and you need a cite the arrow so this is an instinctive shooting this is signing down the arrow and lining it up with the target to get that level of pinpoint accuracy but the question is is that the level of accuracy that was considered good and standard in the medieval period and honestly no it wasn't one of the reasons being even if you're trying to shoot a kind of target archery style with the arrow on the left in the medieval period most especially in a warfare situation the arrows were not properly spined and weighted through the draw weights of the bow they were manufactured on a large scale and they were put onto wagons everything when they're going to Lauren now issued to the arches and they weren't weighted to the boys now it turns out that on the higher poundage ha's spine of the arrow matters less and this is you know me trying to get information from people who have experience in the field and the consensus was generally it matters less when you're shooting a half inch arrow that's a lot heavy and stuff like that what matters more and impacts accuracy is the weight of the arrow but what that means is there is kind of a roof or a cap to the best levels of accuracy you can achieve when shooting a traditional historical medieval way and you can attain at the standard level of accuracy very well with shooting on the right as opposed to the left what really changes the mix up is when you throw in stationary target archery and you need even more precision the most amount of precision you can actually get out of it it's not to say you can't get insanely precise when shooting on the right well as Anderson has already shown this very clearly with his demonstration so it is a very very accurate style but is it the best for stationary target archery probably not it's my opinion but I think that answers it very adequately and it helps contextualize certain claims about the traditional method we are doing it this way because it's the best way argument which nu does bring up later on because that is only in reflection to a very specific set of parameters that is more commonly reflected in modern-day Olympic style target archery in regards to medieval war archery shooting on the right so far especially from my own experimentation experimentations of others is not only very effective but has certain inherent advantages to it as well because this is the thing if shooting with the Mediterranean grip on the right side went out of practice because it was less effective than other methods it should be less effective when we test it in the real world and that's not what we're finding it's not what I'm finding I saw what made longbows is finding or arm in or thread or Lars Andersen is that when you try this style in the more accurate context of the historical period it is just as effective as shooting on the left side and the argument that went out of favor because of this you know actual context is invalid it only becomes more appropriate when you change the parameters and restrict it down to modern-day target archery then there might be some validity to that and then we can understand why right side of shooting perhaps went out of favor and practice well archery was more common in this historical time period we can't assume that the artists necessarily were familiar with the intimacy's and the intricacies of archery just by virtue of living their time period this is such a flawed argument okay it's a straw man and it moves the goal posts all in one because why are you assuming that artists are not familiar with the intimate intricacies of archery and in addition to that this is the straw man side of things I never said that they were I said that it was more likely that they would be based on the fact that archery was more prevalent in the medieval period as recreation for warfare and for hunting it is more likely that the artists of the medieval period were familiar with archery and by the way it's very disingenuous to just try and dismiss all the artistic sources when we have so much of them and it's like saying they're all idiots okay after all we all live in a time period today where most of us drive around in cars but we probably can't accurately draw a car news example of the car is ridiculous because you take most people in the modern world okay and if they're not mentally handicapped in some way they would be able to accurately draw a car more specifically they would know which side the steering wheel is on in the car depending on which country they came from and so your own you're defeated in logic by your own argument because how could you think that most modern people wouldn't know how to draw a car for crying out loud and I'm talking about the most fundamental yet important characteristics that define a car to be what it looks like doesn't have four wheels where are the doors placed on the car where are the windows is there a bonnet and which side is the steering wheel on could they depict this well well of course that depends on their artistic skill but could they depict it accurately most of all people of course they could and it's what's insulting to medieval artists just trying to dismiss them as all being you know inform stuff like that I had artists respond to me in comments to my last video saying that they were insulted as well because as nervous they endeavor to depict things accurately and what you think medieval artists didn't actually get people to pose for their artworks or that they didn't work off real-world references I mean come on it's just very disingenuous many of these art pieces are not intended to be and I never made to be seen as accurate depictions of the subject matter not intending to be accurate depictions how on earth do you know that that is totally applying a preconceived bias on the source material you have no way to know that it's just a complete assumption there is another massive thought what new is trying to say and imply by what is saying here because you might be referring to the fact that many medieval artists actually depicted past events according to what they understood as a modern setting modern to their time so they depicted the past events with the fashion style technology levels architectural styles of their time period the artists time period for instance this depiction of the martyrdom of Saint Sebastian does exactly that the event actually happened sometime between the Year 256 to 288 AD yet this scene clearly depicts a late medieval early Renaissance time period what nu is implying by his statement is that because the artist wasn't depicting the martyrdom of Saint Sebastian that time period accurately that he wasn't trying to depict his own time period accurately which is complete bull and how would he know that how could he try and assume and the artist is not trying to depict the fashion the architectural style and the archery accurate to what he understood from his own time period what we do need is to cooperate these sources with other sources which we can more firmly establish to be credible and for that we have written sources we don't have an extensive record of manuals and treatises from most of the medieval period but we do have sources which state from the late medieval period all right so this one is again really important because he says he has written sources that date from the late medieval period the earliest source he lists comes from 1515 that's the 16th century that's after the medieval period the medieval period ended at the end of the 15th century so you don't list a single source that comes from the medieval period and you actually say you have written sources coming from that period that's not accurate or true and on top of that with the earliest two sources that you bring you misinterpret and misrepresent what is actually being said and I will prove it most of these sources don't just clearly outright say that you have to put the arrow on this side but you're using these sources as if they do outright say I mean you say it in a broader context and then more specifically later on that this is evidence to how they shot in the medieval period when these sources don't even come from a medieval period what we can conclude from this is that the assumption that longer shooters shot from the left side or the near side of the bow is not a modern revision it is clearly documented incredible historical sources we can say with a high degree of certainty that this is the correct way to shoot a longbow and so you were using them as if they are right we say contradicting massively once again they assume that there is a sigh that it's meant to be used and as a reader we have to read into the particular steps and nuances to understand what they are visualizing this is really dangerous when he says you have to interpret what they mean because it kind of comes across that is saying I need to twist the meanings to suit what my view is and I'll show you the way that he misinterprets and twists it and stuff and that's really dangerous because in what I find interesting all their written sources that is mentioning he doesn't reference the written source I shared in my you know doing the impossible in medieval archery video I share a written source but you know what I said in that RIM source it's vague okay and so I wasn't using it as categorical evidence the very thing that new should have been doing with these written sources because some of the earliest ones are very vague and don't say what is saying at all that's how you use written sources like that when it is not clear and that's what I did in my video but at least it is a source that my mean shooting on the right which he happily ignores because it contradicts what is saying now undoubtedly new we'll be applying a different interpretation to this written source so it doesn't mean shooting on the right it's applying a bias will he say that it might mean shooting on the right because I'll say it might mean either one it might mean something different it might mean what he's saying because I don't know the exact context of the author in what he was writing this because things get lost in translation specifically the things that he tries to say is said in the sources that he lists now let's get into it your first source says this holding the arrow by the middle he must put it in the bow and there hold it between in two fingers this section specifically describes the method of putting the arrow in the bow which strongly implies a method that can only be done with the arrow on the near side as putting it on the opposite side does not place the arrow in the bow new tries to say that this passage is saying that the arrow being put in the bow means to put it in between the string and the shaft and with you being right-handed that would put the arrow on the left side the problem is that completely disregards the next part of this passage which says you there hold it in between two fingers so by his logic that passage simply means you hold it there like this it's not even on the string but if it's actually meaning you put it in the bow meaning in the knotch in the string you put it in the boat by notching it and then hold it with two fingers or guess what now we're actually in a position where you're ready to draw the arrow by news our own interpretation it leaves out a step in notching the arrow which is the actual notching you put it in the bow and then hold it with two fingers because he's saying in the bow means between and so there needs to be another statement on the notching because putting in doesn't mean to notch it means weave it through and then there should be another stage if Noah's right saying you then notch it on the string and then hold it between two fingers but it doesn't say that it simply says you put it in the bow and hold it between two fingers and so put it in the bow and there hold it between two fingers and look at that you're ready to draw now on top of just looking at quote in the broader context of try and get a better understanding of what is actually being said here well guess what the person who translated this also gave greater clarification of what in the bow means in a footnote that news seems to have conveniently missed and he says to knotch the contextualization of putting in the bow in the actual source that he lists from the person who translated or a this says ie to not CH that putting it in the boat means to just notch the arrow in the string now is that what was definitively meant from that passage I don't know okay I don't know exactly what is saying because it's not being like fully clear but there does seem to be more indication for the interpretation I've just shared with you especially with the fact that you're holding there were two fingers then what new shared but unlike new I won't say this is what it means but that is what he's saying he's saying his interpretation is the correct one in a fairly definitive way but there's no other way of interpreting this in the bow means through the bow which is actually if you're saying through the but you had to say through not yet but anyway so this was his next written source and it comes from 1545 again after the medieval period now he doesn't specifically talk about knocking but it does talk about this very specific detail to look at your shaft head at the loose is the greatest help to keep a lathe that can be which thing get hindered with excellent shooting because a man cannot shoot straight perfectly except good look at his mark and if I should shoot at a line and not at the mark I would always look at my shaft in but I've distinct somewhat afterward the point that people are focusing on the end of the shaft is only feasible if you're shooting with the arrow on the near side because if the air is on the other side you can't see the end of the shaft if you had an Asiatic bow or at least a an ambidextrous bow and it tried to pull the arrow the correct way you would actually see that it's quite natural to align the eye with the shaft you can't see the end of the shaft it's quite natural to align the eye with the shark so new outrightly contradicts himself on this point okay forgetting completely that he has said the opposite and showed it pretty easily just by lining up bow and the arrow down the shaft to his camera and disregarded all of that to try and prove a point a point that is ultimately incorrect but it shows you how bias can affect you to the point where you outright contradict yourself and this is a thing this isn't the first time news done this you did that a lot in might you know the first you know responsive videos and backs and forth but it's done but in this video as well specifically that no one is saying that it's impossible or this is what they really mean when you were the one who said it was and there are other points where you directly contradict yourself you state something as a categorical and then go on to contradicted by showing is not a categorical and so I don't mean this to be mean this is honest feedback okay but mate if you're contradicting yourself so blatantly like this you're not good at debate okay it would probably be best to just avoid getting in these discussions completely or at the very least do more proper research before you dive into the fray and make such blatant massive errors like this where you are contradicting yourself honestly you would preserve your credibility far more by not getting in over your head and engaging in debates in which you outrightly just about complete falsehoods misinformation and contradict yourself so much and just to show you on my boat and don't worry it's actually not on the strings and I risk of her going off on him inside but if I draw the arrow look I could line it up with the shaft very easily and it's all good because I can't get my arm fully back in mine you know inside but when you draw it back fully okay the arrowhead becomes so back that it's easy to see all right especially if it's on the side I can see the arrowhead easily and line it up not a problem this next source is much clearer it doesn't state it explicitly but I would tend to agree with him that you know putting the arrow under the string and over the bow does imply weaving it through the middle and then having the arrow on the left side the thing is this written source comes from 16:34 that's the seventeenth-century 300 years after Agincourt and on top of that this is one authors opinion it is not representative of the state of archery in his whole time and location world alright and he is still so far removed from the time in which you are trying to apply it and my goodness this applies even doubly so with the two sources you list from the 19th century the fact that you're trying to use this as evidence to how people for the medieval period is farcical but I understand where you're trying you're trying to establish a constant tradition of a certain style Mediterranean grip on the you know left side of the bow but you don't establish it with these sources at all the earliest sources are vague and can be interpreted either way and the source that can even begin to state I infer which side the arrows being placed on more accurately it comes from the 17th century and the sources which far more directly say which side the arrows placed on comes from the modern period the 19th century so far from trying to establish a constant tradition of a certain style your evidence actually indicates far more so that shooting on the Left became far more prevalent and accepted and you know taught and shared it about in the 19th century the two sources that were the most clear and that makes complete sense because when did modern-day stationary target Arabs start to become more prominent and popular as a sport recreational part time there and the resurgence and I've heard you say our trunzo comment that there was a revival in archery those were your words okay a rediscovery of the pastime and interest and just like I said before if you're shooting in this way I think there are certain advantages that you'll get with site-based shooting right on the left side when you're shooting at a stationary target and your aim is the most pinpoint precision and accuracy that you can attain when you want to actually move it from there to there alright but in the medieval context no that type of accuracy sure would be great if anyone could develop it but it wasn't needed nor he wasn't needed in warfare an actual fact you might not have been out achieve it because most of the arrows of the time were not correctly spined to the weight weight of the bows what we can conclude from this is that the assumption that longer shooters shot from the left side or the near side of the bow is not in modern revision yet the sources you cite actually helps to establish that term the standard proper way of shooting being Mediterranean on the left is a modern revision from your own sources mate it is clearly documented incredible historical sources ok which one of those sources come from the medieval period just what are saying before and I think it is very misleading that you say here are historical sources and you're you mentioned at once that they're not from medieval period but you're using it in the context to establish that this is how medieval people shot when it is removed from the medieval period they didn't even come from that time and by never mentioning it again not sharing a proper context of where these sources come from and then just saying look we have historical sources that show how actually was done is very misleading because once again just calling it historical it's like a unspoken subtle implication that's being you know almost implied here that it's at all medieval when it's not we can say with a high degree of certainty that this is the correct way to should a longbow no no you can't say that not from the evidence you've provided and the fact that you're capable of saying this this next thing that you say when we are looking for evidence we need to have evidence which supports the use of the other side using a metal a knee and draw and that's the thing there isn't any is astounding now I don't know if you're trying to say there is no written evidence but you don't say you say this as an absolute there is no evidence what about the artwork ok and you're just ignoring it there is heaps of evidence for it and that the attempt to just disregard it because you know mirror archery or mere modern archer is not the ways it's not as effective because reasons and I haven't been out established even when other people are showing that you can shoot just as effectively in terms of what is good medieval accuracy with this style is so disingenuous ok I have shown meat longbows has shown 3 and same trend has shown Armand has shown and Lars Anderson so far and heaps of people in my comments you've shared that they shoot this way with high poundage bows have also shown that this is an effective style it can be done and because it's effective and can be done it means that the artistic depictions depicting it I have far more chance of being accurate and your grounds to dismiss it because it can't be done is complete disingenuous bullcrap and now the attempts to dismiss it based on written evidence is sorry again completely disingenuous and bullcrap because none of them even come from the medieval period and the two earliest sources don't even say clearly or imply that was the era on the left or the right it could have been either one so far you have nothing in regards to evidence to say that this wasn't done and that mediterranean-style was preferred and we'll get to your claims about the limitations and the in efficacy of this technique because well there are issues there as well made and look right I don't know if you're gonna be offended by me making this video again I'm not tracking you personally okay we've talked back and forth and I think you know we could get along but we have severe and significant disagreements that seem hard to get past but this isn't a personal attack I'm attacking your faulty logic assumptions and misinformation here so throughout hundreds of years of historical texts covering longer shooting but a single one mentioned shooting off the thumb or the thumb side of the bow and out of hundreds of years of artwork we have many artworks representative from many parts over the medieval period that show the arrow being on the right side and what's disappointing about this thanks to your video I've had people come to me and share in comments and stuff like that saying that there are written sources from the medieval period saying that you only shoot on the left side that's the implication that people have been taking from your videos even though you don't stated explicitly by trying to shoehorn in as many sources as you can especially ones that are way outside of the time period to try and make this veneer this illusion of all this artistic I meant to say linguistic resources to show that people never shot on the right is disingenuous and has been misinforming people because people have literally been taken from that that there is written sources from the medieval period saying this was done all this wasn't done okay there is not a wealth of textual evidence describing which way people shot in the medieval period there's a distinct lack and dearth of it and once again one of the largest bodies of evidence we have as to how people shot the medieval period comes from the artwork and there has been nothing you've presented so far that contradicts that that is in any measure credible thumb draw archery is universally done with the error on the right side of the bow see this is one of the places where you contradict yourself you need to be more aware of what you're saying because you say universally thumb drawer is universally on the right side of the bow but then you go on to share an example like overtly and clearly blatantly that there are people doing the thumb drawer on the left side which would imply well not implied just says categorically that it's not a universal reality that everyone is shooting on the right side with some draw so don't state universals like that it makes you look rather silly if look at the modern Mongolian archery competitions thought the nod arm games we do see a target style where the thumb draw is used and the arrow is on the left side or the near side of the archer but despite the fact that there are some benefits and advantages historically we don't see the evidence support using it in any way this part is actually really interesting and new seems to fail to realize that it's a very significant point that works against his own arguments it's an example where a traditional practice of shooting on the right side has been changed in preference to shooting on the left in regards to stationary target archery that there are inherent advantages when shooting on the Left when you're shooting at a stationary target and sighting the arrow with one eye a historical practice and tradition of shooting on the right but a modern revision and changed to shooting on the left when you're sighting at a stationary target trying to be as pinpoint accurate as possible this is actually a clear point of evidence that shows our modern day bias of shooting on the left because of modern day site-based target archery and supports my argument as to why shooting on the right side of a medieval longbow might have gone out of practice and was ultimately forgotten it's worth noting that traditional and tribal archery styles which have not been influenced by modern archery such as the Stars used by African hunters the hodza tribe for example they shoot 100-pound bows to hunt elephants and they use a three finger draw which is a Mediterranean draw and they all shoot from the left side showing people from other parts of the world that shoot in the way that you think is more common in the medieval period has no reference or influence on to how they actually shot in the medieval period I know you're trying to say look this is more common people naturally adopt this style but if that was really a case then why are people using other styles in other parts of world like classic Asiatic archery just because one group of people are more inclined to you know do archery a certain way doesn't mean another group of people are going to have that same inclination it's a false equivalence this segment will provide perspective when while shooting from the opposite side may be less effective than the conventional method well you've said yourself that is effective in one of your later videos it's a photo technique I can make it work and at 10 meters it seemed to be justice at Christmas well I was using a lot of the shooting yet and you made no attempt to correct the record at all all right now we come into what is honestly I have to say a very pseudo scientific assumption ridden bias driven demonstration of certain limitations in this style and it's astounding the amount of just flat-out falsehoods he tries to perpetuate here and he hasn't tried this style very much it's obvious from watching him right because I've been doing this for a while now shooting every second a third day on the right figuring out all the ins and outs and stuff and most of the things he says here is just completely incorrect he tries to establish it there's no way to draw the bow with the arrow not coming off the string alright unless you hold up your thumb or over grip it with your fist and Eden tries to demonstrate it which is completely riddled with his bar he has no intention to try and figure out a way to overcome this right and if their way is just so simple and normal you can easily draw the arrow without falling off with the thumb down and I mean I'm not you know gripping their eye like this it's hard to see you of my gloves but when I'm drawing my bottom my fingers are on it like that this is where my fingers are okay I can fully draw it just like that and it's on the end of my fingers I'm not gripping it like that I'm doing that and for comparison just take a look at how most longbow archers draw the string the string usually rests between the last two knuckles on the fingers and it's hard to see with my gloves on but that's how I'm shooting every single time mate and I showed in my video you can draw the arrow with it being on the you know right side without it falling up and you don't even need your thumb three and show this as well look at this is drawing a hundred and thirty pound bow is his thumb up now you might be saying oh his pinching gara and everything like that if you want to draw with the arrow on the opposite side of the bow you basically have to do the opposite of good technique so we've taught you to use the flat hand and a strong deep hook now you have to show knuckles clench your fists to keep it on the bowstring so it's kind of reversing the motion because you have to pinch the arrow nock and hold it against the bow and even so you rely on the fact that if your thumb isn't there it's gonna fall off that's basically how I managed it if you drove the correct hook the arrow will come off but so how fair and reasonable of you to make assumptions based on someone else's method without actually knowing what they're doing and so if you want to see it okay look free three fingers thumb down drawing and it's staying on the shaft if you want me to show you that I'm not pinching I'm gonna try and keep my fingers as loose you know as possible so it's sure I'm not pinching actual arrow and right back so my goodness this is so darn easy I can't believe people are trying to make pseudo-scientific you know false claims that it's just complete bull and so you're making such bowl old assumptions and stating them as fact that if you don't have the thumb up the era is gonna fall off or you need to over grip and pinch the arrow with your hand well no I wasn't doing that if you ask a typical Archer why you wouldn't do this the s quite simple the arrow will come off the string and that is the fundamental reason why the left side is used as a conventional method without any way to retain the arrow on the shaft the arrow fall off and that is the fundamental reason as you say why the Mediterranean grip is on the left side or if I've just disproven that assertion okay that you can easily keep the arrow on the shaft without any detrimental effect on your drawer and your aim your release and your accuracy in a medieval context by your own logic there is no fundamental reason to prefer shooting on the left or the right now I actually think there are reasons to prefer one or the other but not the reasons that you're saying right now having said all that I still like to keep my thumb up just you know in case it might fall off and then he assumes that that is going to affect the release that it might hit your thumb when you're releasing if your thumb is up you do heavily risk the fact that the arrow is still want to come off what's going to hit the thumb instead but there's a large degree of deflection because the thumb can interfere with arrow clearance ignoring the fact that if you run into that issue we have to do is lower the thumb something I do every title I try to do every time I shoot sometimes I forget especially than in the speed shooting video but when I'm paying attention okay it's lowered every single time not affecting the release or the path of my arrow but new has assumed that if you lower the thumb during the drawer or release of the arrow using a proper and correct draw method with your hand the arrow will fall off and you either have to keep the thumb up or can't the bow which I have disproven in this very video now many beginning artists have the opposite problem with the arrow on the near side they end up flicking the arrow off the string and it gets really frustrating the reason this happens isn't because of a flaw in the Mediterranean draw it's because they're doing it incorrectly yes that's my point okay there's not an inherent problem with this style that's always going to exist it's just that people aren't doing it properly you're not doing it properly with your you know fumbling attempts of look it's falling off what I'm drawing and I'm only for clinching it and I'm holding my thumb up and I need and it's awful no you're just doing it wrong mate why are you seemingly so incapable of applying the same standard of logic to the opposing argument then the view that you're trying to establish or I think we know I think there's a lot of confirmation bias happening all throughout this video and it's displayed very blatantly so this point in the video we really reach some pseudoscience false assumption just flat-out bullcrap okay and it's the assumptions things is trying to say about the position of the elbow and to demonstrate need to take off my jacket live on your shirts though this is that the tunic whine over a chainmail picked it looks pretty cool but I so new is trying to say that the position of the elbow is going to be detrimental if it's more like facing up ways or facing the compared to face now I say that way versus that way this presents problems in itself if you are achieving this by turning your wrist what you are doing is putting your skeletal structure out of position and out optimal alignment if we turn the elbow inwards like this we go from a strong position to a weak position now it's interesting my shoulder is barely moving and it's not the elbow that you're getting the rotation it's in the wrist all right and with the wrist rotating that way or that way look at my elbow barely moving okay it's the slightest tilt alright so that's the first massive assumption the the important part in terms of the strain and the weight that's being pushed down is the position of the shoulder and pay close attention to my shoulder it's moving at all in this my elbow is barely moving at all and can't get this way or that way and my bone structure is actually allied in a straight way there are two bones here okay and when you twist it they have to cross over and they are not sitting straight from the joint but when you hold it like this two bones straight from the joint I would say that implies better structure but I'm not going to say it is alright I'm not a doctor neither is new and the fact that he's trying to state it so authoritative Lee that if you do it this way you're gonna have impure incorrect structure and that is a higher chance of injury is just complete pseudo-scientific bullcrap and it becomes hilarious almost Solaris if it wasn't so blatantly wrong is when he tries to give the example of the punching me I says when you push people do you do it like that or do you do it like that right and then he goes how do you punch you punch like that you don't punch like that and this is an example way really it reveals a massive lack of knowledge thinking about this punching you don't punch luck that you punch straight like this now I don't think nu has done any type of martial arts especially for him capable of even making a statement like this I have done martial arts in my past rather extensively and I have a passion interest in the subject generally the subject of my channel might have given that away and absolutely you can punch like that Bruce Lee punched like that a decent part of the time but you do it both Speight based on situation but his famous three inch punch was bang up like that you can absolutely punch with the fists like this and like oh my goodness the fact that you say you don't punch like a oh my goodness you don't know a thing of what you're talking about here mate and it also contradicts your logic you're trying to say they don't punch like this because of bad structural and if actual actual fact that they do they can punch like that and have massive impact on their body structure hitting someone like that and guess what they're able to handle it fine because the structure is fine and so if you want to apply your the same logic you are willing to use when you misunderstood martial arts is actually done your logic would then actually say oh because martial artists actually do punch with the fists like that in some instances that must mean the body structure can handle it fine because we have a tangential example but I have a feeling you might not accept that as valid evidence where you were willing to pose it as evidence for the contrary moments before I will get to the claims of injury in regards to this because someone has said that they've injured their themselves trying to attempt that but people who then have been you know jumping on that saying arts proof you know this is a dangerous style a missing a very important point of context and the fact that it is no more risk a verse or risk likely than the normal conventional way of shooting okay by their logic because people have injured themselves many times when shooting on the other side that should be too dangerous to test out as well because somebody's in themself see it's dangerous I'll get more into that a bit later on it also forces them in a weak position which also makes them lift their shoulder upwards and hint to put more strain on the shoulder lift the shoulder upward interesting because I'm not lifting it up any more than I would shooting on the other side at all again just an assumption is like trying to make up things out of the air it seems like it I'm not saying is doing it purposely but it's just all assumptions like with no actual valid evidence to prove what it's saying is just saying this is going to happen if you do this again and then he's also trying to say things that simply people shooting this way aren't doing like lifting the shoulder like it's coming in higher then or normally no when I shoot on the difference when I'm sure you this is left right I'm not lifting the shoulder in any more measure than the other way of shooting all right so I'm tilting it this way this would be the conventional Mediterranean drawer and honestly this brings my shoulder in more and I when it compresses but it's not raised higher and then when I do this way is it getting raised higher than before not all that myself and others have said on this subject is that it seems to engage them back muscles more efficiently and it's easy to draw back heavier bows this has been proven by friend he made a follow-up video in response to the collaboration we did and his videos brilliant and check him out okay that is a 130 pound war bow and he can do a full drawer doing a reverse tilt with the arrow on the right side and he can't match that drawer we're doing it the inverse tilt what this makes it easier for me to draw now some people are saying that it's not easier to draw an ax me having my arm this way is making a weaker pole and it will hurt my shoulder but do the way my back works and I don't know if everyone's back works the same way and I'm not trying to argue with anyone say anybody's doing anything wrong because I do agree there's some discrepancy and accuracy with this I'm having to get used to it but I like it because I'm able to draw a little fold it back on the strong row that's 130 pounds and this one's not hinging it's in mint condition as far as I can tell there's no cracks or anything in it and well I'm being able to get it all the way back so let's go ahead and give it one more pull here okay I drew all the way back past this here if I was to thread the arrow through like you since they say and be sure I turn the fletchings and I try to draw in this manner we'll see what happens well I actually leave it off the bow myself but anyway let's go ahead and do it because I was used to doing it the other way yes I'm pinching in on it this I want to do the actual correct way I can't quite get it as far see if I can try again I'll try again I'm not trying to do this to trick my own mind or anything like that I want to get it right [Music] I can't get it as far back I'm sorry I have found the exact same thing be longbows is founded as well but then he realized that he can also do it with it tilting the other way his knees kind of raised it and so I wonder if it's not an inherent thing of the style but the in style encourages correct back to linemen and wants to get it down you could probably reverse the other way but for myself and friend still we can draw back heavier weights with this style okay inverse tilt leaning back just a tad just like that and we can draw back heavy weights compared to when we do you know the alternates tilt will that work like that for everyone no idea works for us and so to say that it doesn't work like that at all across the board is false it's wrong it's proven wrong by both friend and myself and one of the most disingenuous arguments people trying to say which is really proposing a negative right you can't prove like this is that oh you won't notice the fatigue you know when you do this okay there the injury is going to happen subtly like rotator cuff injury or something like that that your rotator cuff is going to be injured for what after long-term use of this and you won't notice it at first what at a bullcrap okay the shoulder is in the same position when you lean that way or that way or that way or that way right the shoulder is in the same position the same man of stress and pressure is going to be the same with us on the inside outside it's about the back muscles and the drawing of the arm and stuff that is giving us greater efficiency in this style come at me with a doctor who might actually say something like that not just random pseudo scientific assumptions that you made and by the way I have injured my rotator cuff in this shoulder before it is very sensitive I know when I'm over straining it because it tells me instantly from a previous injury not a single hint of that shooting this way okay comparing historical archers who used heavy bows across the world talk about Chinese archery talk about Japanese archery European archery African tribal archery the form is nearly identical so there is a conventional way to shoot heavy bones yes there is a conventional way to shoot heavy bows okay but that doesn't mean it's the only way all right three and literally pull back a hundred and thirty pound bow that means that this is a viable method to draw a heavy it didn't injure himself and in actual fact he said he felt less strain overall shooting this way I can't get it as far back I'm sorry that's me trying to keep my hands straight like you sensei said and draw back it is hurting me worse in my back and Phyllis train more that's with my arm this way that actually implies that there is less likelihood to injure yourself shooting this way than the other way I won't say that definitively we don't know what I will say is that shooting heavy bows has a chance for injury no matter what you do and you just need to be careful ok when you be careful risk of injury becomes very very low and I said this in my other video I'm not saying it's impossible deems yourself you always have to be careful don't push yourself too hard like for myself I'm not shooting two days in a row I'm always taking at least one to two days break and if I'm still feeling sore in my muscles I'll take an additional third day break before I'm shooting again to make sure I'm not over straining myself that's how you do it carefully and you just you feel it out you make sure like if you your body can tell you what's happening pretty quick and I'm not saying it's impossible to injure yourself especially when you're pushing yourself too much like what's happened with Jack over on historical archery yeah did you push yourself too much especially trying to draw a hundred and seventy pound bow in the same session that you're trying a different style you might have a chance in yourself but more on that later but the fact that it is more inherently dangerous is not proven at all and an actual fact from people actually testing this responsibly safely we are finding that works pretty darn good and there's less strain overall and in addition new is cherry picking here in his examples trying to establish that you only shoot heavy bows in one way and I've got it interesting that is willing to use historical artwork to try and establish that there is a very standard Universal way to shoot heavy bows we can't assume that the artist necessarily were familiar with the intimacy's and the intricacies of archery unless it's in support of your own argument apparently but what we see in some of the artworks with the arrows depicted on the right side look at their stance and posture they're leaning back in fact it's the same type of stance and posture that myself and thread are doing and there are additional examples of people slightly leaning back or even canting the bow that way with the arrow on the other side now all these things can be overcome I'm not saying they can't be overcome but I am saying they need to be overcome absolutely most of these things can be overcome because most of them aren't even issues in the first place you've just made up stuff saying that these are problems but know that I've already shown on so many instances disproven you well you say the arrow fall off unless the thumb is up or you have to pinch it off to overdo it or all these things like that or the rotation the elbow or you know it's bad structure which is why people don't like all of it there's such constant misinformation and falsehoods in this partner over thousands of years of archery progress and development we've acquired the most effective and optimal methods that's why we can accept that in European art free or Western archery with the Mediterranean draw the arrow goes on the left side and one of the biggest errors where the news kind of assumptions in this video is that he assumes that the standard way of shooting is the best way because it was developed over thousands of years of trial and error and that I call out as complete bull because if that was the case we wouldn't there'll be no point in innovating things that have been developed over thousands of years because we all know how effective traditional certain old-school martial arts are against MMA don't we but by that logic these traditional martial arts should be the best because they'll developed over thousands of years where no tradition tends to instill certain dogmatic you know ideas preferences opinions and styles that never get challenged and ultimately ineffective things become the standard now when we're ads to archery I'm not saying it's ineffective in the contexts in which the Jews I think Mediterranean on the left side probably is still the best for target Olympics stationary archery but not in regards to warfare archery there's a use of practice that ended quite a long time ago and to say that that method was been developed and improved upon when we stopped using it in that context is completely disingenuous and false just because most archers shoot this way and have been shooting this way for so long in modern day Khatri does not mean it's the best method for warfare archery and like I said before you can make it work you can't force it to work but everything comes as a compromise the arrow will want to come off if you execute a good technique so you have to compromise the hook by having a clenched fist but the air will come off anywhere for draw so you have to tilt the bow it took the bow your elbows in a weak position so you lean your body back and the eye will come off anyway so you have to lift your thumb up which interferes the arrows you have to use tatra it's a layer upon layer of extra steps when the reality is we've known for centuries that you put the arrow on this side and you literally have none of those problems you're trying to say that there are more problems of shooting on the right as opposed to the left when there's still this just as many from my own experience the arrow still might fall off when you're shooting on the left side so when you got to warp archery levels you need to adjust your posture and figure out a whole different you know stance to do higher poundage bows see my point here is this you're going to run into problems when you try and shoot on either side and different techniques help overcome them and just because one side is more established and you know all the different ins and outs to get a smoother release and stuff like that doesn't mean those are once problems that needed to be figured out and overcome to figure out how to do it properly on the left side just like the same things you need to do when shooting on the right I have not found a greater number of challenges to be overcome to be competent when shooting on the rifle right when shooting on the left because there are still inherent complications that you will get when shooting on the left as opposed to the right for instance when you're knocking the arrow you mentioned this from one of your sources and even in your own demonstration that when you're trying to weave the arrow through the bow there is a tendency to actually hit the back of the arrow and market and you have a historical source mentioning that this happened as well there's not an old historical source but it shows that this is a problem that you need to overcome well guess what that problem doesn't even exist when you shoot on the right because you just have to place it on it like you that and also when you're weaving it through there's a chance you can stab your damn forehand with the head of the arrow when you weave it through like that you have to bring it back and weave it through like that does that probably exist on the right no because you just lift it put it on like that and the head of the arrow is away from your hand the whole time and so this is one example of a problem that exists on the left side that does not exist on the right and so if you're trying to say that the right has more problems to be overcome and compared to the left that is bullcrap because there are advantages and problems you don't even need to deal with when shooting on the right compared to the left it balances out but towards the end of all these physical demonstrations you're trying to say you can force it to work by working through all these limitations that applies something else that you can force that people have been forcing that to work dealing with the inherent problems that exist in that style but you're trying to establish that therefore it's just easier to learn on the left on the right when no ok it's just more traditionally established that that is the proper way to do it when you actually break it down test it properly for yourself as myself and many others have found it is viable there it is just as effective and any problems that you run into are no greater than the problems you run into when shooting in a different method you just work through one you can make your work you can force it to work but everything comes as a compromise naari you're trying to strawman the case by grossly misrepresenting this style making so many false assumptions across the board so why go for the most difficult method which has no perceivable benefit over the conventional drawl and that there is no practical reason why someone would choose to shoot the opposite way with a Mediterranean drawl no perceived benefit over the conventional draw well I pointed out some already you know pokey pokies slipped through and everything like that and then he goes on to say if you're gonna say you know speed archery and he tries to dismiss it that no one who shoots a hundred-pound like bow is gonna try and shoot with a faster rate of fire which is ball it's a disingenuous dismissal of an inherent massive benefit that you get from shooting on the right there is less movements needed to get that arrow on the bow and to draw and loose no matter how fast you can get by shooting on the left with a quiver alright arrows from a quiver it seems like you will always be faster when shooting on the rights and to dismiss that is simply ignoring the reality of the situations okay hand movements look at it there are absolutely advantages through this style and I'm not gonna say it's universally better in every situation I've admitted many times I think there are other cases where my beneficial have it on that side like and target archery and stuff but there are absolutely advances style and disadvantages that you don't have to deal with when shooting this way and to say there's not is Fox it's wrong with all that said I think that the historical and practical evidence strongly suggests that the conventional method of shooting met Iranian with the error on the near side of the bow is the correct method and with all this said you didn't actually provide any real historical evidence for your case that dates from the medieval period and you didn't prove anything from a practical standpoint looking at your straw man kind of set up demonstrations and false assumptions I think that our experimentation with the alternate Mediterranean draw may be more of a modern fiction but we're trying to find a place for in historical sources rather than letting the history speak for itself oh that's annoying because that's bull as well this isn't me picking up a barrier and saying I like shooting on the right so I'm gonna try and justify it with historical sources I literally started to explore this method because of the historical sources if it wasn't in the medieval artwork I wouldn't have even bothered trying okay I'm interested in history I saw the artwork saw that they were doing it in a different way and wanted to find out if it was practical or possible to do it so this is again a completely false statement setting up a straw man these are people who just want to shoot on the right trying to justify historically no not at all this is me trying to do experimental archaeology to find out if the historical artwork might actually be valid I started with the hour and that led me to the style I didn't start with the style and then tried shoehorn it into the interpretation of history and so those are the major points of news video and from beginning to end it is just fooled with misinformation and falsehood what like it's astounding okay now is made I don't follow up video where he actually shows you can shoot this way again he didn't state anything that he was wrong in anything like that but it's a viable technique and he didn't explore lowering the thumb either because that you can actually improve upon their ways that he was doing it and then he's also made another video in response to another youtuber who tried this out and has hurt his shoulder and Sonu made a video stating effectively I was right he was saying I don't really want to try and say that I'm right I'm more concerned about you know people injuring themselves and stuff like that and he really is trying to push the idea that it is this style that caused it willfully ignoring what Jack has actually said on the matter let me quote to you his reply to my comment on his video I think it was one of those injuries that happens considering that I have been pulling heavy bows without rest for a while I think these are important factors to consider as well I do not intend to blame it on this Cradle draw but I think it was the ultimate push that popped it and what a really fair way to analyze this a thumbs up Jack but of course this isn't stopping new and others from just dogpiling on the scene say this is proof it's inherently dangerous and everything like that when in the same session that Jack was trying this style he was also trying to or attempting to shoot a massively powerful bow and you honestly think that either attempting this before shooting a different style or attempting it after having shot that different style isn't going to either increase the likelihood of injury or make the injury worse when trying it that bow was insanely big that he was trying to pull and he himself said they didn't think it was because of this style it popped that it was more kind of like if the straw that broke the camel's back he had been drawing and doing this for a long time without rest and he over strained himself so of course that's going to increase the likelihood of injury especially if he ended up trying a different style now what's interesting about this friend has tried this on a hundred and thirty pound bow did it not a problem and I was easier for him than doing it another way so if you're gonna try it just be careful okay I trust you guys aren't idiots I'm not an idiot either and you just be careful when you're doing here don't push yourself or over strain yourself and you're gonna be good yeah I have a feeling like my critics would really jump on that and say see shad doesn't care about people and that is promoting something that will cause injury when I am sharing something from my direct personal experience I've tried this okay and I've seen other people try it with heavy bows I was able to pull back a hundred pound bow with this style where I wasn't able to do in other styles okay and for me the trend for me long bows this style worked great with heavy bows with friend he was able to pull it back further than he could other ways so from my own experience and many experiences of others and this is including jack from historical archery because his experience has many things that need to be considered isn't a fair test to see if this is actually more straining on someone than not there is no reason for me to assume that this is more dangerous than shooting heavy bows the conventional way there is always a risk of injury and there is a greater risk of injury with truly weird if you're going to be making up and trying to pull back with your neck or something of course that's going to have a greater risk but this one specifically I have been given no valid reason or evidence to believe that this is inherently dangerous okay and for my own direct experience it works better so that is the evidence of my own experience that I'm drawing this conclusion from if this style does use a different kind of muscle set and I don't know if it does if that little twist is using a different muscle set or it actually might just align the bones and muscles differently and it's using the same ones and so I don't know okay but if it uses a different muscle set and you've trained up those muscles to draw a heavy bow and then you try and draw the same weight of bow in a different style that might use a different muscle set or most of the same muscles only a couple of different ones and those couple of different muscles haven't been developed for that pound of bone well then you might be running into trouble so if you're going to be trying this style might be good to start with low weights and build yourself up just like what I'm doing but that's not a universal case three end was able to jump to 130 pound bow right away and it's not proven if it uses a different muscle set either these just things to be aware of if you're gonna try it out you're smart be careful okay but so far for me that works brilliantly I love it and oh boy what a lengthy video that was but there was a lot to go through it can you see the amount misinformation that's being spread everywhere about this and like why why are people so vehemently against it and the fact that they're so willing to misrepresent the argument straw man it and just make up bull crap about it is astounding what's causing that and I can only conclude it's in defense of tradition and bias and that they don't want to accept new things there's one thing to be skeptical but there's a whole nother thing to just make up stuff in opposition to it and not acknowledge the reality of what is being done the evidence that is being proposed like people making on it it's always gonna hit the wrists they're saying every time it's gonna hit the wrists and that it's a not aligned properly greater risk of injury inherently inaccurate gonna fall and so much bull the process of logic is literally beam that it's impossible to even draw the arrow without falling off that was disproven and then people have been trying to say that no one ever said it was impossible because it was disproven so categorically that anyone who has that assumption previously it looks like I have a lot of egg in their face they do look rather silly for being so vehemently convinced that it was impossible to even draw the arrow with it on that side and so no no no one ever said it impossible we're just saying that it's impractical again shifting the goalposts and now that we're showing that it's just as practical and viable they're trying to say no no are is impractical and not as effective on heavy war bows just shifting goalposts again and again and again never admitting that they were originally wrong in their assertions and then actually attacking people belittling them and ridiculing them because they don't have a solid argument to actually come back on to try and challenge the evidence and logic proposed they become the worst type of authoritarian snobbish alesis that drive people away from the community away from the interests just for the sake of their own bias it's pathetic okay that's why I called these arguments childish and pathetic because they come back and you're saying no you're stupid you're a condescending tit which really the dumbest thing I've ever seen anyone try with a bar without actually giving an argument just you know carrying attacks ad hominem because they don't know how to argue very disappointing and it damages the interest that people can have in this thing cuz seriously why are you taking it so personally okay this is just a couple of guys trying to explore historical archery to see what can be done and having fun while doing it so stop sniffing your own farts and being in an echo chamber circle jerk and just let people enjoy what they enjoy so anyway these are things I needed to address and okay it's an unfortunate thing but hopefully I've also been out of contradict many of the lies that have been perpetuating in an attempt to try and challenge what is actually potentially a really cool valid historical method of archery so if you come all this way to the very end thank you for watching guys I really appreciate your support you guys are the very best sorry once again thank you for watching I hope you've enjoyed and of course I hope to see you again till then [Music] [Music]

Channel: Shadiversity

Views: 834,491

Keywords: archery, history, historical, medieval, middle ages, reply, nusensei, responce, reenactment, debate, longbow, warbow, arrow, quiver, lars anderson, bowman, agencourt, crecy, Mediterranean, knight, game of thrones, lord of the rings, legolas, ranger, dnd, dungeons and dragons, d&d, shortbow, instant legolas, gambeson, fantasy, elf, elven, bow, string, adventure, trick shooting, trick shot, mike loads, robin hood, rogue, range, larsandersen23

Id: mIxlNlHWFLM

Length: 81min 32sec (4892 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 03 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/nightingaleblade]

From the way the video spins it, you’d think the historical archery community devolved into a garbage fire of an elitist circlejerk overnight, when it’s really just pointless argument over which shooting technique is more valid.

There, I just saved over an hour of time for you.

[u/zrfinite]

I'm just going to copy+paste my response to a user in yet another one of these threads as to why Shad is a fool, in detail, because I'm really sick of typing this out. He's proving nothing other than his immaturity.

I challenge Shad to try the tests at the bottom of my post.

​

I haven't really noticed hostility necessarily, just people with actual knowledge and experience making futile attempts to explain the basic physics of shelfless bows to a stubborn Youtuber. It can be frustrating as an experienced archer to have someone with so much influence spread silly misinformation, especially when there are so many new people trying out the sport looking for such information.

It is exactly people like you with a passing knowledge of archery that Shad is targeting. That is not a knock on you by any means - I don't expect everyone to know the ins-and-outs of arrow physics, that would be ridiculous. But that's exactly my point. It seems like most of Shad's audience probably haven't spent much time tuning arrows on a shelfless bow, and the ones that have (like me) have something to say about his preposterous claims. In all of his many videos, all he does is show that it is not impossible to shoot a bow in his "style". Great. I'm sure someone can shoot a handgun with their toes as well, but it is a smart thing to do? Absolutely not. There are dozens of viable draw styles that have been well documented in great detail throughout history, but never this one. Because it's dumb.

As for the physics of why it is dumb:

Shad seems to focus on the fact that the arrow has a tendency to fall off of your hand while drawing, and combats this by putting a thumb up. In reality, he is focusing on entirely the wrong point. The arrow is falling off the hand as a result of the string being torqued in the opposite direction it should be in relation to the position of the arrow on the bow. This doesn't matter as much in the draw as in the release. When the string is released, the arrow is pushed in the opposite direction it should be, causing it to flex INTO the bow as opposed to around it. This causes the arrow to slap the side of the bow as it enters it's flight path, causing a massive loss in energy and the erratic arrow flight you see in every one of these videos. The reason you can still hit the target is because the feathers are correcting the arrow flight. This is super inefficient, and you're losing a ton of energy simply due to the arrow trying to correct itself.

Here's an article that explains in more detail:

https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning

This is something that every experienced traditional archer understands very well, which is likely why you've been seeing so much negative feedback. It's just getting annoying at this point, considering these videos prove absolutely nothing.

What Shad should do if he actually wants to prove anything:

-Group bare shafts with fletched shafts at 10m or more shooting on the right side. Anyone that shoots on the left side (properly) can easily do this if their arrows are tuned.

-Shoot a bow through a chronograph, both with an arrow on the left side and on the right and compare arrow speeds.

-Good slow-mo footage of what the arrow is doing in flight and upon releasing the string.

[u/NotASniperYet]

That clickbait title and flashy font makes it look like a parody video. Someone please tell me that's what I'm getting when I click on play, because I have a feeling that would be a much better watch than what this actually is.

[u/[deleted]]

“Oh my god, who the hell cares” - Peter Griffin

[u/iaymnu]

A little over dramatic, I would take it more seriously if he didn’t wear that t-shirt under that blazer...

[u/Pheralg]

holy shit, this argument again?!?!