We are on board the Royal Caribbean cruise
line and we are filming a jazz archive presentation for Hamilton College. My name is Dr. Michael Woods and my guests
today is Jimmy Cobb and Walter Booker, two of the finest rhythm section players in the
world. And we're going to talk to them about their
experiences in jazz. Just share with me, who were you listening
to when you were a kid when you decided you wanted to play the drums? JC: Me? Well, just about everybody you can think of
because at the time I started to play there was a whole lot of big bands going on you
know, and like in my town every week you had a different big band come to town. So you could see almost anybody you wanted
to see over a period of time. So and then not only that, I was in the era
of Billy Eckstine's big band, who, the personnel of that band got to be the top echelon of
the jazz world you know. So I came along at a good time where I could
see all these great people you know. Billy Eckstine, and you know who Billy Eckstine
is, and everybody in the band - Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, everybody that you think about
has a big name now, went through that band - Sarah Vaughan, you know Leo Parker was a
baritone player and I don't know if a lot of people know about him, but he was a great
baritone player and at that time there wasn't many of those then. Then let's see I'm trying to think who was
in that trumpet section - Dizzy Gillespie, Fats Navarro, a trumpet player named Shorts
O'Connell, I think Sarah maybe remember who he was, J.J. Johnson was in that band over
a period of time, Charlie Riles, Dexter Gordon, Gene Ammons, you know, that's a lot you can
think about, came through that band. So I was fortunate enough to be able to be
old enough to go see some of those guys. You know I remember peeping through the smoke,
one of the smoke fans in one of those clubs and watching Roy Haynes. He don't want me to say that but that's what
it was. Because it was like in the late 40s or something
and I was getting to be a teenager or something. And this particular club in town was called
the Club Valley and right where you could walk around the side and step on the steps
and look into this smoke fan you could look directly at the stage and I saw Roy there
with Lester Young, you know, like that. So at that time, around all the cities in
the United States there was like ghettos and each ghetto had its own kind of a music thing,
you know. I mean each city had like a variety theater,
you know where they showed movies and had shows, you know, and that's how I say there
was like a band coming in like every week that you could see. Then they had like music halls where like
on a Sunday you go and see a band and dance. In fact in Washington there was a place called
the Lincoln Theater and right under that was a place called the Colonade where on certain
days it used to be where they would have a dance and you could go down there and see
almost any band you wanted to, you know. So I had a whole, real fruitful musical start. MW: And you had exciting people to stir it
to life for you. JC: Oh, I could see almost anybody I wanted
to you know, because they came right to my town. MW: And you? WB: Well you know I really can't add very
much except I was into listening to a lot of bass players, even though I wanted to play
other instruments before I started playing the bass. I can't add very much to it because I'm just
a little bit behind him in years, and we were from Washington. So I was exposed to the same thing almost
at the same time, you know? Except there was Mr. Murray's Dance Casino,
which was down the street from where he's talking about, also added to that. I think I remember him telling me he used
to go there and Mr. Murray would let him go there and jam. Is that right? You used to go there? JC: Yeah. We used to play, but I think I can remember
working some place, working for $5 a night and the guy owed me $85 after a while. WB: That's a few gigs. About 17 gigs. JC: But you know I was having fun so and I
was learning. That was at a time where the real professional
musicians had gone to the Army, you know? So it was like right in that space where I
had a chance to play that everybody was left, I had a chance to play with. I mean I'm a young guy playing with older
guys, so I got that kind of experience from them. MW: Tell us one of the gigs that you were
on when you in your own mind said I've arrived - I'm a player, I'm on the scene and I have
a voice here. JC: Well I think that must have been when
Keter Betts got me a job with Earl Bostic's band and I left town. I didn't say I've arrived, I say I'm leaving. Which is, so I left, from my standpoint, I'm
leaving. But you know that was a pretty good thing
because I didn't know if I was ever going to get out of the town. I got to be 21 years old and I got to leave
so it was great. I went to New York and then from New York
I stayed in New York, which that was my passage out of Washington. Not that I didn't love Washington, I still
love it. But it's not like you're going to make a living
around there playing music. Maybe some people do but I didn't think I
could. I figured New York was the place for me. And it turned out. It worked out. MW: And now the bass and the drums are the
backbone of the rhythm section. I'd like for you to talk to us about your
concept of the time element. Because when you think of jazz music, as compared
to any other form of music, you think of the rhythmic vitality of it. It's always jumping. It's always syncopated. It's always full of surprises and energy and
pulse. Talk to us, Walter, talk to us about what
you do with the time when you play. I watched you do a set in there. And you had that bass jumping. WB: Yeah. Well there is a meter, a pulse, that when
you're playing you're playing within, you know? And at the same time you're playing harmony
or you're playing notes that go with - MW: The rhythm. WB: Yeah, with the rhythm, see? That's the funny thing you know, people think
of rhythm and melody and harmony and they are elements that make up music, but really,
they are sort of interdependent because one really creates another, you know? So I suppose you learn how to express yourself
in terms of how you can stay within what you're doing and create flow and create tension any
time you want to. Because that's what's make things jump, you
know, is the fact that it's not predictable, the fact that it does a little bit more than
flowing or a little bit less than flowing sometimes. And so you express yourself with being able
to do that, in such times as you're feeling like it, you know what I mean? Hoping that it will fit with what everybody
else is doing you know. I mean you do it based on -
JC: Everybody else. WB: Everybody else, yeah, yeah, absolutely. MW: Tell us about your concept of time and
color. JC: Well my concept is just to try to keep
it lively and keep the time together, and try to keep everybody inspired if possible. You know, try to help them through their improvisation. Just try to be there, be there for them. And you know, at all times. In this band they depend on it a lot. And every band I guess, you know, but this
band has a lot of energy. I mean Nat's band has a lot of energy, so
he expects it every night. WB: Yeah, he expects it. JC: Every song, you know. WB: Almost like he needs it. JC: So that's I fell into that habit, which
I think is a good habit. MW: A couple of things I want to ask you about
the drum kit. Can you share with us, explain to us a little
bit how styles of playing the drums changed in sound and in what the drummer does or his
role with the sounds that he creates from Dixie to swing to bop to hard bop to what
you play today? JC: I don't know. Basically the drums, if you're talking about
the drums per se, I don't know. They change because they have new innovations. They make things a little different like that. A long time when they was playing Dixieland,
they didn't really have a lot of cymbals going. You know guys played the rolls on snare drums
like -. Just like that. And they didn't have a lot of cymbals, they
played on cowbells and snare drums and stuff like that. A little later, it evolved into something
where old man Jo Jones, Jonathan Jo Jones, started to play the hi-hat, you know, like
made a stand and put two cymbals on it, and like what you've got now, the hi-hat. He started that. Then he started to play with cymbals. He had the hi-hat and then cymbals on top,
you know like that. So that evolved from the snare drum to you
know, playing the whole, more or less the whole kit instead of just the snare drum,
and around the tom toms and like that. And just lately I think the drums have probably,
they've been making drums better and they're making more of them too. I had a set home with like seven drums on
it, which is a lot. But that's for a certain type of music, because
jazz players don't usually use that much drums. They don't really need that much. Jazz players usually use like maybe at most
two tom toms on top of the bass drum and one on the floor, and the snare drum and the bass
drum. You know where like rock drummers might have
-. WB: With drums and cymbals. JC: Yeah, and twelve cymbals or something,
I don't know. I don't know what the reason is for that,
but they like it and that's what they think they have to have. But you know the whole thing evolved, you
know, I guess if you play this music the whole thing is going to change. Basically the drums do the same thing, you
know. They keep the time and they try to spark the
players, so it's not a whole lot of change I don't think in between, between Dixieland,
it's just styles, you know? Because the drummer has to do the same thing. He has to spark the band and he has to play
and to keep the time and stuff like that. Otherwise it's the same deal. It's just a different etiologies I guess. MW: I want to ask you a question about form. Because sometimes I listen to players and
it's a different role and sometimes the bass player is the one that does it. Sometimes it's like your job to walk, but
it's also your job to delineate the form, to see where it turns around. And then sometimes I hear players where they
intentionally disguise where it turns around, where you can't find the seams anymore. JC: Oh, you mean the structure. WB: Oh, oh. JC: Yeah, well now the bass player, the bass
player is supposed to be able to stand up and not have anybody else play with him and
you're supposed to know where everything is. You know if there's a tune like "Have You
Met Miss Jones," you're supposed to see Miss Jones all through that, and know where Miss
Jones went, whether you met her or not. WB: That's a good way to put that, that's
one of the best profiles I want you to know. JC: Yeah, that's the best way to you know,
to explain that I think. Because you're supposed to learn, the bass
player is supposed to know where everything is. You know they think the drummers are not,
or don't have to, but you know, there's a lot of musical drummers out here now. You know like they will say the drummer don't
read music, he don't have to read music. WB: I want you to know that he says the bass
player is supposed to know, and that's true, maybe they are, but I'm one bass player that
doesn't have to worry about it so much because I know he knows. So it makes a partnership in a way sort of. It's not that I depend upon him it's just
that it allows me to even be- MW: Freer? WB: Well yeah, a certain kind of freer, because
now I don't have to really, see every, it's relative. Because every little bit that you may move
in form or in any kind of way, and I know that he's got that kind of flexibility and
that kind of hearing, and if he does it a little bit you see what I mean we can just
do it really in a sort of magical way, without anybody really realizing that it's being done
to them. Because it's being done to them, you know
what I mean? MW: You know there is, in listening to the
groups that I admire, there seems to be an unspoken communication in jazz, night after
night on the bandstand. It seems to be and I want you all to elaborate
on this, times when the energy level is a little bit higher that night than it used
to be, or one person takes off, one person says, well, you know somebody's looking for
somebody to get it started. You say we all know we can play, we all know
that we're more than proficient players, but who feels like stepping out tonight? And then somebody says okay I'm going to be
the spark flurry tonight. You know and somebody takes a real nice solo,
and then everybody comes up behind him. WB: Well that'd be me. MW: I just want you to talk about the camaraderie
that takes place on stage. WB: If you have that attitude about it, if
everybody felt that way, let's say you were serious, well that'd be me because that would
be me too, I feel like I'd need to be the one to do that. If everybody feels that way then you will
never know and we will never know either which one created that hype, I mean that variable
that you're speaking of. You never know which one. JC: Well I guess our engagement, I guess we
can all figure each other out, one way or the other. MW: Tell us one of the most fun times or one
of the craziest or funniest little things that's happened to you on stage while you
were playing. JC: Well I could tell you but it would be
- we don't want to get into that I don't think. MW: Oh, yeah, well this is a jazz archive,
this is fun. JC: You know there's funny things that happen
but I don't know, technical things happen. I remember playing one time with Charlie Parker,
Miles Davis, I was just talking to Milt Jackson about it because he was on the gig, Milt Jackson,
Toots Thielmans, Beryl Booker, Keter Betts and myself, and we like we was playing this
theater you know like and you've got the curtain that opens? And I'm sitting up there getting ready to
play, the curtain opens and takes the bass drum off the stand, hanging on the curtain. And we're trying to play a fast tune and I'm
sitting there with no bass drum, and the rest of the bass drum is hanging on the curtain. Then I remember seeing something like in the
Howell Theater they had a stage where you know, the drummer set way up on top, you know. Like the trumpets were here, the trombones
were there, the saxophones, you know like almost a regular set up. And the bass player stands over here and the
piano player is standing there, like that. So they had, I think this was Sonny Greer's
drums strapped to the walls. And when the curtain opened, they would push
the stage out. So somebody forgot that his stuff was strapped
to the wall, and when they pushed the stage out, his drums just stayed on the wall. So I mean a lot of technical things that you
have no control over. WB: I got one for the archives. Once I was working with Betty Carter and we
were on the road in Chicago. Betty, this was a while ago, when John Hicks
was the piano player for ten years. And this was about maybe the fifth or sixth
year, and I had worked with her before but I came back to work with her a while. And you know, Betty Carter used to have this
habit of encouraging her drummers or bass players to be on the watch for the singing. But you know, she'd never said anything to
me, I thought it was because I used to think it was because I was good enough, you know
what I mean, and that's why she didn't bother me, you know? But we were playing, we were just playing. And we had our schedule as to what we were
going to play next you know. And she - you know, singing, and she turned
around, so she came and stood in front of me. But then she come and look at me and she turned
around and said, "Do something." So I was just playing, you know and I say,
"Huh?" And she said, "Do something!" And so I started, John Hicks was over here
playing the piano and I stopped playing, saying, well I'm not going to say what I said, but
I said what's wrong with what I'm doing? You mean I'm not doing something? But it turned out to be that the song, one
of the songs she sings is "You Do Something To Me" right, and she wanted to change what
song we were playing because it was marked "Do Something" and she wanted to change it
to be the one we do next, you know? And she was trying to let me know without,
you know so we could continue and flow, you know? So "You Do Something To Me." And that's the way me and John has teased
me many a nights there, "Do something, Booker." MW: Have either one of you had occasion to
perform with Joe Williams? WB: Yeah. Have you too? JC: Yeah. We had, occasionally we used to have a little
thing where we'd go on a golf tour together. Joe, you know is a great lover of golf and
so am I. And so we used to have a tour, I mean Keter
Betts got into a thing where he would be like the musical director for this professional
golfer that lives in Washington that was the pro at the golf course out there. So he got us all on the gig, and we used to
go like, they did it for maybe 17 or 18 times, and we used to go play the music and play
golf, because Keter is a golfer, Joe is a golfer. So we had to have occasions to play with Joe,
you know and everybody else, supplying the rhythm section for everybody that needed it. So we used to do that. And right now I'm getting old and I can't
think, it was Lee Elder, he used to have a ProAm tournament like every year, and we used
to go play music for it. Joe used to show up quite often on it. So I played with Joe. I haven't played with him other than that. I remember Joe from a long time ago. I remember Joe when he was still in Chicago
singing at a club named DeLisa. He was like the house singer in the Club DeLisa
in the 40s. So that's what I know him from. MW: How do you feel like his sound typifies
jazz vocals? JC: Oh well he did, you know he did a lot
to bring a certain type of blues to certain people. You know because when he was with Count Basie's
band he matter-of-factly kind of saved Count Basie's band for many. Because at that time the bands weren't doing
that well. So they got Joe and Joe was a real favorite
singer, so he kind of helped the band. He helped them so much that I think Basie
started to call him his son. So Joe kind of educated people to that music,
you know, people that probably wasn't listening to it before. Because you know he's got a lot of clever
things that you know, that he says in the blues, and he can really do the real funky
blues too, and he can do the sophisticated blues. So I think lately they probably associate
him with the latter, but he can do it all. WB: Absolutely. That's probably what happened, yeah, he did
raise up the, he did widen the listening audience's ears to the blues form, and accept it, you
know what I mean? JC: And he kept Count Basie's band working
too. WB: Yeah. JC: You know people they can sit and listen
to instrumentals for a while, but you know, every now and then say, when is somebody gonna
be singing? WB: When is the singer coming on? JC: I'll tell you another little thing. We had a band, I was with one of Cannonball
Adderley's first bands, him and Nat, and Junior Mance and Sam Jones and myself. So they used to play a little place in the
town where Cannon was teaching school, called Porgy's or Porky's or something like that,
the guy had a club, and they would go in and play. But Nat used to sing and it was Nat's band,
and Cannon was just in Nat's band. Because Nat was a singer-
WB: See, he hired a singer - JC: He hired a singer because they liked in
this club. So they left town and got this band, and we
was out playing bebop and stuff, and we came back and the guy gave us, gave him a gig,
you know? So we got in there, we played the first set,
we're playing that little bebop stuff, and the guy came up on the stand and says, "When
is the little guy gonna sing?" So Cannon say, "Uh we don't do that no more." The guy said, "Pack up your stuff." He said, "Get on out of here." MW: Wow. And that shows it really takes an educated
ear to hear the sophistication of what somebody is doing-
JC: No they wasn't ready for what we was doing, they was ready for what Nat was doing before,
you know like he was singing "woah baby" and all that stuff. You know that's what they liked. He can do that now but, you know, he don't
do it. Every now and then he gets it. Like the other night, the last part of the
night, he got into a little "woah baby" but it's a little, and what he does is very funny,
it's entertaining. MW: Uh huh. You know I wanted to ask you also about how
times have changed. Do you think the music is more accepted now
and people really appreciate the intellectual aspect of it, the craft of it now? Or do you still think that it's still tied
closer to the entertainment value? JC: Well I don't know about now. But I know before, people loved the jazz music
because musicians were treated like doctors and lawyers and stuff, I mean I'm talking
about way back. I remember seeing Duke Ellington's band and
the Count Basie band and these guys in suits, and I looked up to them because I said, I'm
going to be like them. WB: Yeah. It was glamorous, it was glamorous. JC: Yeah, it was. But I think the music has done so many different
kinds of turns and stuff, you know, so a lot of people just kind of wonder what it is. It went so far at one time, people said, now,
wait a minute, what is this? So I don't know. I heard somebody say well maybe the best music
has already been played. And if you think about it, you know, the young
guys that come up now, they have to go back and get all of that music before they can
reach maturity. So that means, and then I can't see that there's
going to be anybody greater than all those people I mentioned before, like Charlie Parker. I can't see an alto player being any better
than that. Maybe the sound might be, but technically. WB: You know I think it's been a misnomer
in the last 20 years or less maybe, for jazz players to come up and think that there is
going to be a change in the music without dealing with what was-
JC: The history. WB: Yeah, the history, see? So now I think recently it's, we can see a
lot of young guys coming up and these young guys are thinking about the music-
JC: The beginning. WB: Like the best music has already been played
because they are realizing and they are approaching it like that is the school of thought. That is the basis, the background by which,
you know, the base on which this music should be built. Now it is going to its own time, we're letting
time be the thing that determines how it is being expressed and not trying to play something
different then what it was. You know what I mean? And of course time will do it because it sounds,
the instruments will help time do it, for the way they're making instruments, the way
they make new drums. JC: Well not only that, they're making electric
drums, and that's a sound that you didn't hear before, and that's going to have to take
you someplace else. And then they're making these synthesizers,
I can't even say that word. You've got all this stuff that really charges
the music up. WB: Insennsithessizers. JC: Yeah
you better watch it, you won't get a free amp or something. WB: Yeah you better cut this off right here. Could you delete this section? MW: I want to ask you for a moment I just
have to include this. Tell us about, a little bit anyhow, about
John Coltrane, one of the most revered musicians who has ever lived, one of the most imitated
saxophone players by everybody who's ever tried to play a tenor. JC: Well you know it's the same thing as what
happened with - it's a person like that comes maybe every so often, you know, that really
changes the whole thing around. Like a long time ago I remember, you know,
from where I'm starting, I'm starting like from maybe from Coleman Hawkins. But I'm sure there was people that influenced
him, they way he played you know. Then after Coleman Hawkins it went into like
Lester Young, which was a different style you know. Everybody thought that Lester Young was supposed
to play like Coleman Hawkins. In fact somebody told me that there's a landlord
told him, say, "I don't know what kind of music you're playing, you're supposed to play,
listen to this, this is the way you're supposed to play the saxophone." And had him listen to Coleman Hawkins, you
know. He say, "well no, I got my own playing," you
know. So the things change like that. So they were like Coleman Hawkins to Prez,
Charlie Parker, see the whole thing is changing, you know, to then, I'm trying to think of
anybody else really major in this, there's probably some more major people that I can't
think of in this. But Trane comes from all of these people,
you know. So he listened to all these people. In fact I remember Trane being in Earl Bostic's
band, you know, which Earl Bostic had a band and when I was in it he was like trying to
make a living so he was playing like, you know just kind of standard sort of, I don't
know if you call it rock 'n roll, rhythm & blues I think you called it then. So he was just playing like that. But he was a super saxophone player, you know. And he used to play things there, and play
things on his horn that wasn't on the horn, you know, I mean they were not supposed to
come out of the horn. Like Wes Montgomery played stuff on the guitar
not supposed to come out the guitar? Like those octaves and things. Guitar players say you can't do that. But nobody told him that. You know so Trane learned a lot of things
from Earl Bostic about how to get some other sounds out of his horn. You ever heard him play like three notes? MW: Yeah. Multiphonics? Yeah. JC: Yeah. Well he learned that kind of stuff I think
basically from working with Earl Bostic for a while. Earl Bostic taught him some different fingerings
and stuff like that. So but he was a very conscientious guy man. He, like we was in the band together, he used
to work, he would work all, you know work the sets, play a half hour solo or something,
and then get off the stand and go in the corner and stand up and practice. And then come back on and do the same thing
again, and do that all night long. In fact one time in Chicago, the whole week
we were working in a place called Sutherlin Lounge, which was under this hotel, Hotel
Sutherlin, and he was having his teeth fixed, this whole week. Like he'd go to the dentist in the daytime,
and play at night, which I couldn't understand, because that's really crazy. So he did that the whole week and by the time
he got through, he had his teeth fixed, you know. So he came on the stand and he looked at Paul
Chambers and smiled, and the teeth was about that long. So Paul almost fell on the floor, because
they used to be roommates you know. And so he had to go get them filed down because
he couldn't really bite, he didn't really have the right bite on the horn. But he was a very conscientious guy, man. He used to practice all the time. I mean all the time. We'd go to London he'd be sitting behind me
practicing his soprano, you know, or Ornette Coleman, you know tunes, and really, when
you first started to listen at that, and you first started listening to it on the soprano,
it really sounds funny, you know, relative to what you're used to hearing. So he would like practice all the time man. And you know he came up with a formula. He came up with something that was different
from everybody, and he could do it better, well you know it was his thing. WB: It turned out to be magic. JC: Now everybody, I feel sorry for the saxophone
players that have to come behind that one. Because say, woah, wait a minute, I got to
learn all of this? WB: Yeah, learn that, in the hopes that something
will come out of him, you know. And that's probably why they want to go in
other directions. So they go no I don't think so and they go
and they try to skip over that see? They usually did that, they preferred to skip
over that, they'll say we'll have his sound and then we'll go and do, but his sound was
all that it was. JC: Yeah he had a whole lot of experience. He did a whole lot of things. You know he played in all kinds of bands,
he played in funk bands, he played bebop, he played in big bands, he played in Jimmy
Heath's band when Jimmy Heath had a band in Philadelphia, and he played alto, you know,
until he heard Charlie Parker, then he stopped doing that. MW: Some people say that he played the tenor
so high because he really still heard the sounds from the alto, like he was playing
everything a fourth up higher. WB: He probably felt more comfortable up there,
not because of his knowledge, just because of his ears, and what made him feel comfortable,
you know? MW: Give us a quick chronology of who you
think some of the bass lineage is. We talked about Hawkins and Prez and Bird
and Trane. Give us some of that bass chronology then. JC: You have to start out with Jimmy Blanton. WB: Absolutely. JC: Yeah 'cause he's the one who kind of modernized
that bass playing, because before then they was playing -, like two beat notes. He kind of started to play the chord and walk
changes. WB: Yeah he played melodic lines, but in harmony
within what the changes are. Plus he played great solos huh? JC: Oh he played great solos. WB: Plus he could play with the bow. And Duke Ellington loved him. He could play melodies, I don't know if you
know it was a duo thing with him. JC: He was a well trained bass player. Like maybe he trained, I don't know whether
he trained for the symphony or not, but he was probably taught that way, or somebody
taught him that, or either the gift came, from where it comes from. And nobody have to teach you nothing then,
you know, it's there. WB: And what about his partner? JC: Oh, Slam Stewart. WB: See people may not give him credit because
it was such a commercial kind of thing that he sang and played, but-
JC: Oh, he was a killer man. WB: He was a very unbelievable-
JC: A very unbelievable bass player. WB: And so then, there are so many great guys. JC: Then there was Oscar Pettiford came in
off of the top of that. WB: Which I sort of started from there in
my - I don't know that I consciously liked him, because I would like concentrate on all
kinds of other people but I came out sounding like that. When I first heard myself play, I said, I
don't want to sound- I mean I didn't mean I don't want to - is that me I said. But anyway, I think that's where I really
came from. JC: Then there was Paul Chambers. Young Paul Chambers. He came like he sounded like he was the extension
off of both of them guys. WB: Yeah he means Jimmy Blanton and Oscar
Pettiford. JC: He sounded like he was an extension, the
modern extension of those guys. You know and then there's guys, there's Ron
Carter. But now there's a host of young guys that's
in that idiom you know, killers. They're really bad. WB: Like see there was a time when they put
the bass strings real close and they used to - for about 30 years, or maybe 20 years. Now it's come back, these young guys today,
man they've got the bass strings up high again from the bridge, I mean from the fingerboard,
and they thump now with beat, man. Matter of fact, they're not even using amps
anymore. JC: Yeah. WB: They use mics in the basses now. MW: Uh huh. Got that little torque on it when you need
it. WB: Yeah, which is the unspoken reason why,
you know what I mean? Rather than the reason why, that's you know,
that's what it is, that's what was missing maybe they are saying, you know? Rather than the reason why. JC: Yeah 'cause I got a little band that I
play with sometime, and the bass player, he never uses an amp. You know he plays like that guy used to play
a long time ago before. You know they might get close to the microphone
or something, but they didn't have amps. WB: Yeah, and check those strings again. That makes the bass have resonance, see? It makes the bass sound - boom - instead of
with the metal strings which we had started using because of the amps. See? And because of putting them things close,
you know, the notes were sharper - I mean sharp in terms of more definite, more definition
you know? But now the definition is not needed because
the bass will give you definition. So that's interesting. JC: Yeah and these guys are on top of it too. Like I heard, there's a lot of great European
bass players too. Like this guy Niels Henning - oh man it's
hard to believe this guy. WB: Yeah, he's incredible. Incredible. JC: But it's right off of that same thing. He told me himself, he said the reason I want
to learn to play the bass, I did a thing with Miles Davis in Sweden in, what '59 or something
like that. And he said his father brought him to the
concert, he said he was about eleven years old or something. And he said he heard Paul and he wanted to
play the bass. I think he may have been playing it you know,
like legitimate or something, but he said Paul really wanted him to, made him want to
play like the way he plays now. So he's a killer. WB: Yes he is. And it's interesting, because he's from, well
he's from a place where at that time, you didn't get a chance to hear that much, and
the exposure. But this guy sounds like he was exposed to
everybody under the sun. MW: You know that's funny sometimes when albums
are hard to come by, but when you want that sound, you want that feel, and you really
want it, sometimes you ain't got but two albums. But you memorize every note on the two albums. WB: Yeah, and then you go natural. JC: Yeah, you can learn from them what kind
of feeling you want. WB: What kind of feeling you want, yeah, yeah. JC: And the way you want to play. WB: What kind of feeling you want can come
out from it, at least you may not know that's what you want until later on, but that's what
you've got. MW: You know you talked about the cultural
context of this music. That you can't just play the music just to
be playing the notes. We talked about Parker. We talked about Trane. And you know I feel that at that particular
time, there were elements in society that were bringing forth these incredibly gifted
people. Is there anything that can be done to society
right now? Or is there any elements that you know of
existing particularly in the African American community, that can spark that type of genius
again in the 90's? JC: Well, let me see. Before, there was like I say there was all
that music around us, you know? And then it got to be that it wasn't there
anymore. And it got to be that the music went to college,
and most black people couldn't get to college. So at one time, like maybe ten years ago,
there was no brothers playing this music. So I think what's the name, you just mentioned
your boss lady. WB: Oh, Betty Carter. JC: Betty Carter was going around trying to
promote the brothers to play. Because they was into rock 'n roll. You know they got into rock 'n roll because
I guess that's what was happening where they were. So she went around wherever she worked and
tried to promote the young brothers getting back into the jazz thing. So then it came back around again, with Marsalis. And Marsalis and them are throwing a whole
lot of young guys in there. You know Louie Hanna is throwing a whole pile
of people in there. So that started there. He helped a lot to bring young brothers back
into this music. WB: Because it is exposure that creates the
flow of it happening. In other words, the more it's exposed, the
more people will like it, the more people will want to play it, you know what I mean,
it's a cycle, you know the cycle - JC: The more you get to hear it, you get a
better percentage out of the people that might like it. That's what he's saying. WB: And a better percentage who might get
involved and stay. MW: But in other words, what you're saying,
but it's at least got to be on the menu. JC: Yeah, that's right. You've got to be exposed to it. You can't do nothing unless you're exposed
to it. Say I didn't even know about this. MW: You know I'll tell you something I think
you will appreciate. You know in my History of Jazz class, I require
the students each semester to at least attend three live performances, two of which I provide
for them on the campus, and one they have to go off campus to get. And I invariably get notes back from them
that says, I'd never been to a live jazz concert before. I didn't think I would like it. I listened to it and oh, I really liked it. It was really good. It was much more intricate than I thought. WB: That's the kind of thing yeah. JC: I have exactly, I have young people come
up to me all the time and tell me that they got to liking jazz from listening to a "Kind
of Blue." That record, "Kind of Blue," I mean a lot
of people. And you know a lot of them says I started
to play the music because of that. I think Chick Corea told me that. WB: I believe it. I can believe that. JC: You know so a lot of people because it's
not pretentious, it's just something that you can set down and listen to and it's nice
music and it's not bombarding you or nothing, it's just-
WB: It's one of the most exposed albums too, in the world, through the years. So that adds to the validity of what we were
saying about exposure. MW: You know another thing is that album came
out in 1959. And sometimes I kind of think of 1959 almost
as like the high water mark, when there was the greatest proliferation of, some of the
big bands were still going, a lot of the small groups are coming along, the innovations were
coming along in jazz in terms of harmonies, Miles is into the modal thing. And so I kind of look at that as a high water
mark. I'd like to ask you maybe a closing question
here and maybe have you both comment on it. If you had a word of encouragement that you
could say to young players coming up or to audiences to sensitize them to the beauty
of this music, not only in its craft but in its cultural context. And you could condense that to a few words,
what would it be? JC: Well let me see. I'm trying to figure what I could say, I don't
know what you could say to an audience to do it, but that probably has to be exposure
again. You know you've got television now, they probably
have to see something on television that they say, well you know I could get into that,
or something like that. But I don't know if you just probably get
them and try to take them to a concert, that would probably be, a lot of people couldn't
get there. MW: Do you, I'm sure you're familiar with
the show that Ramsey Lewis had on T.V.? I like that. I think a lot of people would tune into that
and watch that for an hour, you know? JC: Well I'll tell you there's another thing. Nat Adderley has a way that he can rap, and
he might get you, he could probably get you interested in it. WB: Yeah, inspired. JC: Because he's got that kind of rap you
know. So now if he could do that on a major scale
or something like that, he might recruit some people. WB: Yeah. Recruit some people to start listening, or
to start playing even. I tell you, I would say in a few words, it
might sound a little silly but stop, look and listen. See I have the confidence, we have the confidence
that if we are not so busy and if we prepare tension, and if we get exposed, and once we
listen we get taken. That's all it would take for playing and listening. JC: Yeah because you know, some people get
exposed and they come to see our band and they don't know what to expect. And they go away enjoying it. Because Nat has talked them through it, walked
them through it like let's say you know? And like that. So they've got a better understanding of it
than a band that you just go, some people just come and sit down and hear some guys
play and they don't never say nothing, you know? They don't even probably call the tunes or
something. WB: It's really easy to play in Nat's band. JC: It's just hard on a person listening,
I mean listening at that. Because they don't know what they're listening
at. Unless they have an exceptional musical -
MW: Unless they're already connoisseurs of music. WB: Yeah. MW: Probably already have all the albums already,
and they're just hearing it live. WB: Yeah and what they're hearing. See the levels change when you already have
some predisposed, when you get a little introduction and a little inside comprehension as to what
is being done and what the attitude is, and that we're just human beings too, vulnerable,
and quite imperfect as a matter of fact. And it's about imperfection that makes the
magic happen. And that makes everybody know that, before,
and the lectures, and the workshops that we have before concerts. By the time we get to the concert we'll feel
good because we know that everybody in there that's heard that thing, listens and hears
and they see things that they would never have seen if it wasn't for us having a workshop
today. You know what I mean? JC: Yeah, Nat has some things where he runs
the whole creation of the tune down. How it happened and when it happened, and
this is what he was trying to do, and like that. So that's always, to me it enhances the - especially
people that wouldn't usually listen to the music anyway. MW: And it gives you some handles by which
you can grip the music without having to understand all the complex harmonies. WB: Yeah, see, that's what I mean. It puts latitude to your every sensibility. It puts latitude. MW: You know I would say this one last thing
and that is you know you talked about improvisation and you talked about imperfection. We were interviewing one musician and he said
sometimes he came up with his best runs when he had painted himself into a corner and didn't
know how he was going to get out of it. Tell us, share with us real quick, each one
of you, one of those experiences, where you came up with a new lick or a new way of turning
a phrase around or something. WB: Who? Now? Well let's see. That question hit me right there. You first. JC: Well I'm trying to think of something
I did recently that, well I don't know, you got into the salsa. WB: Well, yeah, I didn't understand the question. Yeah, I've gotten into playing clave, you
understand and clave really adds to my concept of rhythm. And I mean I'm a new student of clave, because
you see it's Latin music. It comes from Cuba and it's another approach
to what rhythm is, you know, I mean how we usually look at it. And now I'm looking at it and I'm doing all
kinds of stuff outside of playing like music see? You know what I mean? And I'm having such good fun with it. It turned my life around again. Thanks, Jimmy. JC: Yeah, I thought I'd throw that in there. Now I'm trying to find another, you know I
play a certain way, I'm trying to find a way sometimes that I can get outside myself and
still be myself you know? So I've just been searching for some kind
of other way, so you know some nights I set down and say well man, you do the same kind
of, you have the same kind of feeling, which is okay, I'm not disgusted with my feeling,
but I just want to be able to do something else. You know sort of like what he's doing, you
know like maybe play a different kind of music and just get out, get away from me for a minute,
and do that. MW: Try to extend that, that palate of choice
that you have, in order, and then let your personality go with it. JC: Yeah. Sort of be more creative about it. WB: You have to be careful with that sort
of stuff because you can't, you know you don't really want to really paint yourself in such
a corner that you can't get out. JC: Can't get out of. Yeah, I don't intend to do that. MW: I
just want to say this one thing to you as a bass player. Is it difficult or do you find that you have
any problems at all taking bass solos? Because what happens to me is this. I play the bass too. And sometimes when it's time to take the bass
solo, usually the bass player is last. After your hand is filled with lactic acid. You been walking for everybody else. WB: Well no usually the drums are last. But, no, not because of anything physical. But maybe because of exhaustion in terms of
having explored various playing for people who have explored all these various ideas
in parts of the music that we're playing, now here I go trying to have to express myself,
and all these other things have been done. Not that I couldn't repeat them, but you know
you have to let that go now, and yet not let it go, because what you want to do is -
JC: Yeah, you have to be relative. WB: Yeah, yeah, you see what I mean. And boy that's quite a job. I love to play solos, don't get me wrong,
but I'm telling you that was and is my biggest challenge - to you know - when it comes time
to do that. JC: And be fresh. After you've been playing a half hour for
some other people. WB: But Jimmy and I, we get a chance to, the
way Nat plays, usually Nat features the drums at least once in the set and the bass at least
once. And you know, and the way we, the kind of
music we play, we get a chance to do little solo things while we're playing. You know what I mean? Either the introduction or, just little things
you know what I mean? JC: He used to have a little system, a little
system he used to use on me, like we'd come to work and the first tune would be a drum
solo. I say, "man, why would you do that?" He say, "I just wanted to see whether you
wanted to play or not." I say, "I want to play, but I don't know whether
I want to play on the first tune or not." MW: Well we have been discussing some humorous
and very insightful aspects of modern jazz with two of the finest performers and rhythm
section artists in jazz for Hamilton College Archive, Jimmy Cobb and Walter Booker. Thank you.
