Anat Cohen Interview by Monk Rowe - 9/9/2021 - Zoom

monk my name is monk rowe and for the phillies jazz archive and hamilton college performing arts i'm very pleased to have annette cohen with me this morning not exactly jazz musicians hours but nonetheless i'm pleased to speak with you same here mark very pleased to speak be speaking with you i want to start out with the observation and a comparison years ago i was able to interview buddy defranco the clarinetist who described the instrument as an agony stick and contrasted with your um your website where the first thing you see is the clarinet took over my life and i'm happily surrendering surrendering so uh i like that attitude towards your instrument yeah well not to not to uh disagree with with the with mr defranco who i who i loved very much uh it is agony an agonistic and uh it's an interesting instrument sometimes i feel like the more i practice the harder it gets it's a bizarre instrument but um but when i refer to to me surrendering to it i think it's more there's two elements one is that i was when i came to united states from israel i went to berkeley college of music as a tenor saxophone player and i focused on studying jazz as a saxophone player and the clarinet was always there i played it before and it accompanied me all through my life but i didn't really envision how to become a a performer a soloist on the clarinet in in the music that i wanted to do and it just slowly took over my life through various kind of various music very um the study of jazz but also study of world music and being in in boston a student and meeting brazilian people and people from argentina and later people from colombia and clarinet start to be you know part of different groups and sounds i was playing and and of course the music of new orleans and so so suddenly i realized wait a second i'm playing more clarinet and saxophone it wasn't my intention and and i felt i can be who i am i can be myself on the clarinet so partially that's the that's what behind the clarinet took over my life and i i'm happily surrendering because it brought so much joy and and so many new encounters and opportunities for me that i feel very grateful in retrospect has it been perhaps a good decision as far as finding a place in in the jazz world because there's no lack of tenor saxophone players that is correct though there are definitely there's no there is no lack of tennis exactly players but but this uh it wasn't as i'm saying it wasn't it wasn't like oh i want to become a clarinet player because there are plenty of tenor saxophone players playing players i i just uh i just found myself in different situations playing playing clarinet and and and feeling really comfortable feeling that feeling connected to the instrument something that maybe with a tennis saxophone was not as natural as as it was for me on the clarinet and um you know the heavy the the history of of jazz and the history of music really when you think about all the the the the spirits and the our fa the fathers of the tenor saxophone i mean it's such a i mean heavy heavy legacy you know just being on the stage of the village vanguard and and feeling like the spirit of train there and joe henderson and like you know the the kind of accompaniment that i had was also you know something that that was with me the whole time and and when i played clarinet somehow maybe because i started from from more of the classical music world um i felt more connection and oh i'm just going to play the way i play and uh it wasn't as as heavy if if you had stayed in the classical realm in israel can you surmise that you might have been able to make a living in that genre without coming to america i don't know i don't i don't really know um in in any kind of music i mean i i went to i went to study i went to college i went to berkeley college of music and and um and of course there's all the the curriculum and and the academic world and and the the subject that i studied but i think the the main important thing that berkeley gave me is opening the door to the international community and through the people the other students expand my horizons and and really fall in love with a lot of with variety of music that maybe if i stayed in israel it would have taken me longer to get to okay of course the internet arrived a little later so it was not it was not like today with the press of a button you like you travel the world and you you know look at the world through google and you can just look at the streets and drive around and listen to music and and have radio stations that play music from any era and every point of in the world it's kind of yeah it wasn't as as you know it wasn't as easy in your bio there's a brief anecdote about you finally arriving in new york and going to smalls and i wonder if that i can only envision if maybe that was a moment uh to remember for you what was that like to sort of step into a club and say okay this is a big part of the new york scene and how do i fit into this wow that's a beautiful it's a beautiful question because you really brought me back to that moment i mean the name of the club is called smalls which still exists um so i didn't i didn't know what it was in the sea i didn't know that that time when i stepped into smalls it was it was a new club that was encouraging young people to find who they are through the tradition of of of bebop and heartbob but open the doors for experiments and for people to write their own music and to make their own bands and i just witnessed a couple people that i knew because there was a bass player that i knew since i was in high school used to play with my older brother yuval his name is omer avital and omar was a key figure at the time at smalls and i walked into smalls and he's was just playing the bass swinging his butt off and uh and uh and being part of the scene and so for me more than thinking of like what is smalls or the scenes of new york for me it was kind of a the idea of that somebody from from israel from where from a different country from where i come from from my city can just be part of a whole new culture and and and mingle so well and excel so there were a bunch a few other israelis at the time that were were part of that scene so for me it was uh and i remember that night i mean we we definitely pulled an all-nighter that that that trip because you know we were students we had no money we were there at smalls and we had to spend smalls was open the whole night after the shows they were like a show at 10 p.m at midnight at 2 a.m then a gym session all night and then of course at 6 00 am we took the bus back to boston i was still stood at berkeley so we had to stay there no matter what so we're like just kind of watching all this amazing the hang the hang basically it's the hang which is uh which is part of of what we do right it's like i i i always say this anecdote there was a teacher at berkeley i was i was always busy on like running you know no i gotta go do homework i gotta go do this i gotta go and and then the teacher told me ana you gotta learn how to hang and i'm like okay so work in progress yeah it's good yeah i like the hang the the hang uh translate help translate into your stage presence which i observe as um welcoming and an addition to what you can present you know i i it's interesting i mean first of all i'm glad you feel it's welcoming um and uh you know i don't know if it's the hang um i think part of what made me feel comfortable on stage was being part of a afro-cuban band uh it's a band in boston called um they used to be called mango blue then became mango blues and i was the in a saxophone section with miguel zanon the great outer player and um and i didn't know much about for cuba music or or all the south american rhythm it was all new to me but another thing that was definitely new to me is dancing and being on stage playing you know sometimes there will be a long piano solo and everybody everybody basically looking at the audience and everybody's dancing and i'm realizing okay i cannot just be on stage standing still this it's not part of the culture it's not part of the music so i was very embarrassed at the beginning and then i'm like okay i can just move and then slowly i got more relaxed into it and then i would when there would be long solos i would just leave my saxophone on stage and go in the audience and just start dancing with people and dance with miguel on the stage looking learning the steps and i think after being able to not worry about what other people think because i'm dancing it's just a whole other cultural aspect that is not i didn't learn in israel um i think after that being on stage and just playing um and concentrating in the music and and moving to to to the moment and being in the moment i i don't think about the stage is a stage i just think it's like let's just all celebrate the moment beautiful i want to ask you about two specific performances that are viewable for people um one is a tiny desk concert you did marcelo gonsalves is that correct and it's really interesting to watch first of all there's no music in front of you and this one particular song i'm not sure you opened your eyes at all so this could be a may not even have an answer but can you describe what's going on in your head in in a kind of performance like that is some of it okay here comes this chord that i have to remember to observe in my playing or is it different than that wow that's a that's a really uh it's an interesting question because there there's no absolute answer to that [Music] the goal is not to have those thoughts that you just described because we spend hours and hours on our crafts so once we get to the moment of truth which means being on stage or being filmed you can surrender 100 to the music and be in the moment and and really be in tuned with with that bigger thing which is the music which is beyond what i know and what i can do and what i need it's it's what the music needs and how to connect with the other person and how to connect with the rest of the world and i think that's that's the goal so i think if you if you if you are and that kind of takes me to think about improvisation and playing jazz if you are being playing a song and concentrating on oh that moment is coming and i need to think about the core if you're thinking about what is upcoming and making a plan you are no longer in the moment so you're losing the moment so of course it's kind of incredible i think you know and you kind of mentioned the classical world and and the classical music and the the the high skill it takes to for a musician to to execute what they need to do on their instrument on the whole craft of playing an instrument being an instrumentalist and being an improviser and being a connector and a communicator it's a it's it's a lot of things and and we have a lot of thoughts and other moments i will be in i'll be on stage and maybe i'll start thinking about wait did i shut off the gas before i left the house or did i or you know or somebody would walk into the club and you're like oh wow wait i we have i forgot to call that wow they emailed me that i don't know who knows like so many different thoughts can come in into while you're playing a solo and and and you know it's it's like you know when we're meditating and and we have thoughts and we do we surrender to them and let them take over or we just like okay it's a thought concentrate go back distraction but i think the goal is to get to that connection with the moment that's that's really those tiny tiny moments where you are [Music] it's the safest place in the world i think when you're inside the music sphere when you are connected with what with the music with the other musicians everybody is like in that place and and you're laser focused on the moment and there is some kind of like you feel the energy of the audience and you feel the energy of everything just clicks and and and comes together and makes sense and sometimes it's the most obvious thing it's just it makes sense music can be something so simple and those are like tiny tiny moments in a whole many many hours of like confusion and and frustration and battles and travels so so you know this is this is the goal is to to get to those moments where to work on our craft to to a point where we could master those moments and really bring them to life do you choose your uh band members and accompanists with that in mind like these particular players are more most likely to help me get to those moments of truth um well yeah yes and no the the the thought is not uh they're gonna help me get to the moment of truth is more of like there are people that with a sense of exploration with uh with a level of listening and respect um and level of creativity that is gonna challenge but not overberry so it's like the musicians that i choose okay i i like flexible musicians that can go with the moment and not say oh i only know one thing so that's what i'm gonna play what would you do if you played something during an improvised solo that you didn't like i tell you what i i tell you what i do i laugh i i you you would watch me often i i i laugh at myself loudly in front of everybody i don't care i mean because the expert experiment is i i want to try and i'm like wow that was a bad idea i don't know what you were thinking no that ain't gonna happen that did not work so sometimes it makes me laugh with like how what the hutzpah that i have to try something like that would your um i assume you had a classical clarinet teacher um early on and i wonder if they saw you playing on a video i noticed the one thing that i was going to ask you about next uh a video with paquito de rivera and at one one point you you took i guess it was your left hand and you put it down at your side while you were playing now and also during this particular solo you used some lovely vibrato so i'm wondering if your classical teacher might have looked at that and go oh not you shouldn't be doing that well i i um my classical teacher um i had the one main teacher uh when i was before i transformed into jazz life um when i was studying a little bit of classical clarinet and her name is eva wasserman she still lives in israel and she has been very supportive of my path and she she calls me up and she she's proud of me and she she saw me early on um moving away from from that strict strictly classical world and she supported it and she never made a comment that you know something is wrong okay but um but it's always it's always interesting the the you know i think the years of playing saxophone um invaded into my clarinet playing so what i allowed myself to study and to practice on the saxophone i allow myself to do on the clarinet so maybe it's not a strictly a clarinet approach and not something that a clarinet teacher might teach you but that's something that illinois jaquette inspired me to play on the tenor saxophone and i'm like okay i just happen to hold a different horn but the music is it's not about the instruments about what's inside yeah that particular moment i with a vibrato for some reason um made me think of kenny davern you had a that particular tone and he he's been a favorite of mine and so i now have another favorite with you i loved kenny davern you know it's kind of i have a uh he was important in in my path because years ago um i played with them i played for many years with a diva jazz orchestra an all-female big band that exists for over 25 years and we played the the clearwater jazz festival it was um around the year 2000 and uh it was flip phillips 85th birthday and at the end of the festival in the hotel everybody played happy birthday to flip phillips on stage bunch of musicians including buddy defranco and kenny davern um and uh and the stanley k the manager of diva asked me where's your clarinet and i'm like it's in the hotel room i didn't even didn't even occur to me i wasn't even i was still playing saxophone he says go get it so i ran to my room and by the time i came back to the stage they were all already playing rhythm changes and and you know everybody took a couple of courses and i just went on stage and i i went with the clarinet and i went in front i played two choruses on two choruses of written changes and and then the minute i finished i had two hands grab me by the shoulder and let lead me back and it was kenny the vern who who helped me and took me back and put me right between him and buddy defranco and that was really really important moment for me because it was a moment of his saying all right girl you're you're with us which was it still took me a minute to to become a clarinetist but it was a a really memorable moment important thanks for sharing that i love that story and speaking of important people that the um the tune with paquito de rivera was called um and the world weeps and i've been in a you know a situation a couple times in my life where i was playing next to someone i really admired or was a mentor or teacher and i was wondering if you were thinking because he soloed first and beautifully did you allow yourself to have these kind of somewhat negative thoughts like what am i going to do now you know i would have done what he did but he already did it should i or it it sounds like maybe you don't let those kind of things get into your head i just you know i just have a different approach because why would what would i do now for me is a positive thought not a negative thought because if he played something and and he left me to a point say okay a challenge what what do i have to add to how can i add to the music after everything that he already gave um so for me it's it's not like oh my god he played so beautiful now i'm gonna i mean it doesn't there's no no time and no room for the for you know negative thoughts at this point it's only about think about the music and and you have to really be sometimes go into something that maybe i haven't tried yet maybe i haven't played before but but the moment wants something else so that's what i'm saying if i was planning what i'm going to play and then paquito has played it i would be like not be in the moment and not be able to add anything because i will be all confused so you know but paquito is um definitely somebody i i admire so much um and um and it was such a thrill to to have him it was the dc jazz festival and and actually he recorded the tune with me on my album claroscuro that uh that in the world weeps it's a it's a dr lonnie smith song very simple minor eight bars it's does not this song is just powerful and simple like many many songs and um and uh it's just it's just great because it can really show how for me how the the to be connected with with your soul and how the clarinet can be so expressive and and get such a wide range of emotions and and paquito is such an inspiration the way he plays the clarinet his sound on the clarinet the kind of the kind of genres and and music he he dives into and what he presents in one show and and for somebody for somebody that for somebody was uh you know i moved to to to new york and i was all confused about oh i want to do this music or that music how do you play he's a person that combines his classical roots with with his love for brazilian music with his roots from from his cuban roots to love of of argentinian music for for the world traveler and he makes it be one thing and it was very inspiring for me to say hold on i connect all of those things it's not the the music might be different from different places but the way we're going to be playing it with the band we're going to make it ours so so he was inspiring you've done very well in uh in the polls the downtown in the last few years and um i wonder if people who are voting for you if it's more than the the way how am i how am i trying to i'm trying to say that people will like what you do not just because of the way you play your instrument it's the music you choose to play at least this is my attitude do you do you think part of your success in those pollings have to do with what you've done with combining music and the variety of things you present i i don't know i don't know you know the the the mystery of of the clarinet and i talked about it at the beginning of of our conversation the the certain natural connection and at the time i remembered my first shows as a as a band leader i played tenno saxophone for the whole show and i played one song on the clarinet because at the beginning i was as i mentioned the clarinet took over my life right i was like playing saxophone and clarinet was there waiting lurking in the corner so i would play one song on the clarinet in the whole show and then people would come to me to talk to me after the show and they would just talk about the clarinet and i was like okay um but also saying okay maybe the way i play it i don't know it reaches it reaches them i don't know i i don't know i don't have a reason you know i don't think i'm i'm better clarinetis than so many others and and everybody has something to offer so i this is all one big mystery for me but uh but i'm grateful for for people to first of all to accepting their clarinet as an instrument they are willing to listen to and to like which is uh already a big step and you know so many people have preconception about the clarinet and they associate it and you know you say jazz and clarinet and people still say oh benny goodman and i'm like okay yes benny goodman but there's still there's more to it just listen so that's all i'm trying to do if you were com was there a point um you do some composing and did the clarinet start becoming the instrument you were hearing in your head instead of the saxophone if if you were working on a musical idea you know i i it's it's a good question because i rarely compose on the clarinet or on the instrument i compose a melody like that i hear or something that i end up playing on the on the keyboards or the piano or the on the roads and and then i figure out which instrument will give you the best character so the the melody is almost inseparable but one of i have one composition that i know for sure i wrote playing the clarinet which is one of my songs called vaults of the south vasa du soul and that song is very clear and it is clarinetistic clarinetistic i guess it's it's it's it has it uses all the range of the instrument and it would be hard to to play it on the soprano saxophone so maybe i should try and do that more i will clarinet yeah yeah yeah that that's right you you performed that tune with marcelo i think on the right yes and i know what you're saying like i couldn't reproduce this on another instrument um that's what's so nice about the clarinet that the lower low range is friendly not so much like on the tenor saxophone trying to play way down at the bottom of the horn expressively i've never mastered that for sure it's a it's a challenging one it's possible to to master and it has a whole other softness when you play those sub tones on the tennis axe phone it gives a whole other yeah feeling to it but yeah they're very different different character and and uh they each each instrument i play bring a little side of my personality out it's it's i don't know if you know i can be everything on nobody can be everything they are in every given moment historically um in the history of jazz it's been a male-dominated business um getting better i wonder if you feel like you've been at a disadvantage or an advantage as being a woman jazz musician or if it just doesn't matter anymore i i don't know the answer i don't i and i i can't tell especially this this day and age with with the me too movement i don't think i will know if people hire me to play in a festival because i feel in the quarter of they have to have women or because they like the music i play and i will never know if what was the reason before but when people close their eyes and they don't know who's playing the music has no gender and no color and no flag and music is just music so i don't have an answer for that well you're very quotable i must say that i'm very quotable you're very quotable all right i would imagine like like all other musicians and most people you um had a challenge during this uh coveted pandemic as far as gigs did you stay in in the states or did you go home or even do you still think of israel as home yeah israel will always be home that's where that's where i grew up that's where my my mom and my my siblings are and i i love it i just spent one month there and uh and it was incredible i love tel aviv my city i live i love driving arrive around on on my scooter and i love being able to to to stop and and and go into the the sea the city is right on the beach and and it's it's a lovely city complex place but a lovely lovely city but when the pandemic started i went down to to rio de janeiro and i thought it just for for a little bit and i stayed there for a while so that tiny the tiny desk concert you saw was film in rio de janeiro that was filmed during the pandemic i'm remembering the thing you said about the latin band in boston and that you learned to move to the music and it gave me this flash like when i've tried to listen to latin music sometimes i get aggravated like i lose one and i'm wondering like moving like that helps like keep one in your in your head you know that's always the what you're describing is always that that conflict between the the feeling and the thinking because what you feel is what you feel and nobody can argue with you it's always it's always right that's what you feel now whether one person calls it one and another person calls it four that's a whole other question and that's when you want to write music or analyze music then maybe you need to know where is one but but the feeling is the feeling so there's first that but i uh it was a not a natural thing for me uh to to find the one um in in in when there's a clave and to be able to like to to think and you know when the club is moving and to talk about it and i was like okay but where is the one how do you know which one is the club like it wasn't it it took me a while and through dancing um it it definitely helped me stable that that confidence and confidence and and uh and um you know my friend uh giovino santos neto is a great musician he played for years with ameto pascual he's a is a great educator and musician um he's a piano player and and he talks about the the you know to incorporate the rhythm and the word corporal in corporal that the word body is in to incorporate so you gotta move you gotta dance you gotta feel it with your body and i think for me in different kinds of south american rhythms that i encountered moving dancing stepping with the feet and and first trusting the the body movement and then thinking about what it how it's thinking about how it feels but going with the feeling first it helped me understand a lot of music and hanging out hang hanging out with the locals do you have um hopes for what your audience is absorbing from your music um there's things that happen on stage that you you and musicians in general think oh that was a wonderful moment or if you write a melody i'm trying to form this question about what do you think your audience is hearing in re in contrast to what you're hearing hmm i would love to interview the audience i don't know in contrast to what i'm hearing i don't know what i don't know how they perceive the music but but i know that ultimately the notes they're just a they're just a tool you know the the goal the the goal is to to create an emotional impact to let people i can't say forget about their lives for a moment because you know music like like scent like smell it brings you back to moments in your life easily like you will hear a song that you heard when you were a kid and you're like oh my god i just remember this moment you know or you smell something from the garden of your neighbors that you know you're like i know this smell and it brings you back to a moment so i don't know if music can always let people forget about their lives or remind them of of things they they tried to forget or wanted to remember but um but i do want my music to have an emotional and emotional impact and i want it to be meaningful also for me i mean i'm a little bit it's a little bit selfish here because you know i go you know i don't want to go to the other side of the world and you know do you know three kobe tests and and travel and you know go take a few flights and and then arrive to a place and just play notes that's not you know that's not enough for me i want to to get off stage and and to know that it was meaningful to me that that i connected with the other musicians and and by that hoping to be connected with the audience and to take them with me on on a little journey um away from from their moment so that's all okay do you have someone who has given you career advice over the years um in a in the wow this you know these little mentors those little phrases here and there but um you know the the there's career and then there's music and there's there's a lot of elements to the word to my to my journey um but a person that has been um i know that extremely helpful and and by my side as far as the suggestions and and support and and running our record label is odette lev arie oded is my my high school friend and he's the musical director of the tentet the project that we have together and he also the the person who really runs anzik records because all the albums that i recorded came out on our own label that a label we established together in 2007 5-7 so so and he is a brilliant musician a brilliant man and brilliant at so many things and has a vision for for you know supports knows me and tells me the truth and and uh by my side and my releases and and business advice but also ideas it's it's good to have somebody like him in my life i don't know if i think i would really be lost without him did he and of course and uh okay sure let's talk about that and then i'll talk about my brothers okay but i just was curious if he if he composed this song a putty boy strut no the the song party boys strat was uh composed by by flying lotus also known as steve allison but oded composed a concerto for the tintet and myself that we premiered in carnegie hall a couple years ago and it's the title album uh triple helix is the name of the concerto it's also the title album of the last tenteta album that was nominated for grammy for best large ensemble so exciting well you were mentioning your brothers and um i wonder how your parents have felt about three of their children in in the world of jazz i know they probably never thought they would retire [Laughter] it was i was like what were you thinking how did you let the three of us become jazz musicians they they you know first of all the parents i wish everybody have uh supportive parents uh like that that that see that their children they like something they are they are into it and they are dedicated to it and they're like okay we step out of the way we'll even we have worries about how you're going to survive and what's going to happen we're going to let you do what you want to do and support you and and help you pay for for music lessons and drive you around and drive you around and drive you around and go to all your youth orchestra concerts and [Music] and you know they were there when we were you know squeaking and they were there when you know my mom was there when the three cones with the the three of us have and uh avishai my younger brother the trumpet player and yuval my older brother the saxophone player we have a sextet and when the three coins extent played carnegie hall my my mother was sitting in the audience and you know when we introduced her she got up and she was like doing the royal wave to everybody so that's uh that's that's the payment they get oh that's that's a happy story well i appreciate you taking the time to to speak with me and i'm looking forward to uh hearing you live when you when you get to a particular venue that you haven't been to before does the sort of physical layout the stage the the auditorium affect your choice of repertoire um it might not affect the choice of repertoire it depends of course it depends if it's a band that has played enough that we have flexibility with repertoire it might affect but it definitely affects um the way we play um it's not j it's the whole it's the kind of type of reverb in the room it's the type of instruments that are provided i bring my own clarinet but the piano player in this case when we're going to be playing um tomorrow at hamilton uh college that we're playing with there with a new band called quartet and um and cortacino has a it's a part of the tintet so we have viton go salvage playing piano of course piano players are always depending on what kind of instrument they their hands lay on so and then um the vibraphone player percussion percussion player james ship i mean he plays the vibraphone each vibraphone has a different sound the motor works differently so so it affects ultimately it also affects the music and the way things resonate and the way we can play with the natural reverb of the instruments and of course not to mention bass players that long time ago already had to figure out whatever they like it's a russian roulette roulette you know okay it's one it's up and down you know so so there's there's that and um so it does every everything makes a difference but you know we try to [Music] make the best out of every moment all right and there's a new album coming out we're gonna we're gonna be recording with the with quattuccino with a small band at the end of this month i know we're in september 2021 now but uh we'll be recording so it will come out next next next year but also next month i have a new album coming out with marcelo gonzalez so you know that's what uh happens uh when you spend the pandemic you have time to to work on music and and record and and it's a reflection of the the year of of of work and the album is called reconvexo and which is a song by caitanya velozo and it has a lot of singer-songwriter songs from brazil so i'm excited about that okay well i'm definitely looking forward to meeting you personally and hearing your music tomorrow yay me too best of luck with the the rest of your career how's that for a long-term investment um yeah it's uh it's kind of interesting because you know it's it's uh after being home for for for a year and a half it's it's uh he kind of went from for a second here from zero to a hundred uh it's a little bit overwhelming i have to say but you know i'm also very grateful and and enjoyed while it lasts because we don't know we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so this opportunity for to play a few shows and to play live for people and and i'm really really excited about that because if i did miss the exchange with the audience to feel other people to share energy so i'm very excited and happy and grateful to be able to have this opportunity tomorrow and in general all right thanks again thank you monk bye bye

Channel: Fillius Jazz Archive at Hamilton College

Views: 153

Rating: 4.7647057 out of 5

Keywords: jazz history, jazz interviews, jazz video, Monk Rowe, jazz conversations, Tel Aviv, Kenny Davern, Buddy DeFranco, Pacquito D'Rivera, The Three Cohens, jazz improvisation

Id: _S-Y4-ubULE

Length: 46min 11sec (2771 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 20 2021