Unveiling Grace: Out of the Mormon Church and Into the Arms of Grace

hey great great music John that was wonderful it's like heaven I agree Springsteen's you know wow I was really getting into it so hey just a second this is a sad day for a lot of us because they know that Reverend Billy Graham died today but is a great day in heaven okay so we should clap for Billy Graham for a weld job done I'm sure the angels up there was just so excited and you know what's amazing when I was a young boy I remember watching some of his sermons you know his on TV his what do you call mom Crusades okay or whatever you want to call you know being a Mormonism for 30 years confused so I was gonna say talk but that wasn't gonna work but the it just you know his message was just so amazing so after I came out of Mormon then I've kind of forgot about Billy Graham and then we came out of Mormonism and I remember I was flipping around on the the Christian TV channel and there's really some interesting things to watch there and not the West okay but anyway I came and he was just starting a talk his sermon Billy Graham is 1958 and it was about the blood in the cross and the resurrection and I was just stunned by it because that talk that sermon was as pertinent in 1950 day as it was a thousand years ago as it is today and as would be a thousand years from now that is the gospel message and I think about Mormonism and they will talk about sermons given by prophets in the 50s and the 60s and I said they could not even give those out now because it would be the doctrine to be so different than what they teach the doctrine is still the same in Mormonism as when we joined you know back in 1977 but they don't teach it openly you know you taught it to me when I was a high priest but it's not taught openly like in General Conference like in Sunday school and so forth so I was really really touched by that sermon to really understand it is all about the blood it is all about the cross it is all about Jesus and it's about his resurrection and nothing more Jesus is enough so you know Lynn and I have had a chance to travel you know from from London from England all way to California speaking and you know we've you know in London we've we got to eat dinner a wonderful dinner and in a pub built in 1450 okay 1450 Darwin even ate there okay but Darwin also gave him money to start a Baptist Church in that same city which is crazy but anyway so we've been you know from you know from there to New York to Indiana through through California and we've eaten at some really great places and I just wanted to let you know that you guys have a really great Culver's down the street here I mean when we travel we spare no expense I told Lynch you could even get an ice-cream if she wanted to so but you know when I left there is a little bit upset okay and I've got some empirical evidence here so when they gave me the receipt they gave me a senior citizens discount but they didn't give one to Lynne and I do not understand why it just makes no sense okay okay so moving on here now we have to get serious you guys got those handouts those are great handouts then I'll be talking about that later and the the key thing on that handout is that you know LEM will be teaching later on you know she's a professor okay so there will be a written exam at the end and if you pass you're saved and if you don't well we just don't know okay so moving on here but you know I remember those songs singing there and I'm going to change this slightly here but which sill then never knows what I'm going to say when I get here but the I remembered the first song of singing and I think this the words were I grant you what with all my heart I give you praise something like that and you know obviously the praises to Jesus Christ with all my heart thought in my mind I give you praise and you know I was just looking at that and I remember when I was in the LDS Church I used to sing a song about praise also and so one time when I was slowly coming out of the LDS Church because I kept thinking I can save my family but God was slowly converted me by the Word of God and yet to understand Lynn and I came out of the Mormon Church not because we were offended not because we couldn't live the standards and not because we committed a great sin well then did commit one great sin I have to openly state it she married me so but other than that but but the the fact is is that you know we lived it and that when we were studying and working and I forgot where it's gonna go with this but anyway in the LDS Church you know I was really active and I was slowly being drawn out by the Word of God and Lynn and I left not because any other event not because of history not because the character of Joseph Smith or any of that it was because the Word of God it pierced their hearts they circumcised my heart it dissapears me and that I realized that I got to a point where I had to make a choice between the Bible knowing that it's reliable or the teachings of the Mormon Church so one day Lin had actually quit going to the LDS Church and nobody ever notice for some reason maybe I covered so well for her but I continued to go because my calling was I was chairperson of the redeemed a dead committee sounds like a nice Christian calling but the that was involved in temple work in taking people to Temple doing baptism working with youth teaching temple classes speak into the elders quorum the high priests quorum speaking of sacrament about why we need to go to the temple and one day I my my daughter and I again God has been piercing me with his word we went to sacrament meeting we were lacking a third row on the right hand side and everybody was standing there and the opening hymn was called praise to the man okay now I'm gonna read this to you okay and then I'm gonna tell you more about it okay praise to the man who communed with Jehovah Jesus annoyed anointed the prophet and seer blessed to open the last dispensation Kings will exalt him and nations Revere now tell me this next verse who this sounds like great is his glory and endless his priesthood ever and ever the keys he will hold faithful and true he will enter his kingdom crowned in the midst of the prophets of old this is a song about Joseph Smith and so when I was standing there I started you know they started it I could not sing it I could not I could not sing those worth and I used to I mean six months earlier I would sing just like John was singing up here I just let it all out okay I pity two people next to me but that's this way I fell now it is time I was so a little bit concerned because if I didn't move my people would probably look at me so I would said well maybe I should just mouth the words and I started mounting the words and as ice just as soon as I started that god I spoke in my mind he says you sing praise to no man except the man Christ Jesus for this song is an abomination before me and when God speaks to you about singing praise to a man and you hear those words that does something to you because I could never ever sing that song out loud I could never ever sing a praise to any man except the man Christ Jesus and that's what it's all about my brothers and sisters so moving on here let's get started here on this and we're going to zip through this very very very quickly here because we have a lot hopefully okay so the key thing is that we were Mormon for 30 years we love the Mormon people okay and we were they at least I was the happiest Mormon you'd ever meet in Alpine Utah I loved being LDS I mean I'm just talking about 12 years ago you know I'm talking about you know 2005-2006 everything was great life was wonderful limbless a tenured professor BYU my business was doing well you know people respected me all was wonderful until this Jesus gets in the way okay and so you know when he starts getting in the way you start having problems but but you have to understand we love the Mormon people and we want them to the same joy that we have now we're not locked into legalism we work we work hard in fact I told Lynn you know if we keep doing this long enough we will be saved any day now no it's all about it's not because you work to be saved it's because you want to do the work of the Lord okay you know everybody knows Ephesians 2:8 and 9 but to ten states this for we are now created in Christ Jesus to do good works you want to do it so we enjoy this we really do even at Culver's and everything that's just you know they have unlimited drinks they're happy drinks can you believe that caffeinated drinks I bet Mitt Romney would just love to eat there so and get all the drinks he could okay moving on here so so again this is not - you know we our story is to bring people out of legalism whether it's in Islam whether it's an any kind of legalistic system whether they're in you know Catholicism which is legalistic if they know the true meeting you could be Catholic and get out of legalism be great but you can't tie your salvation to a man anyplace through there okay you know our salvation even though Billy Graham was great our salvation is not tied to Billy Graham right we can listen to him he's a wonderful person our salvation is tied to Jesus Christ and that's what we want people to know okay so moving on here this talks about some of the activities we were very active in the oldest church name was had leadership positions I had multiple leadership positions and we don't need to go through that and we don't do that to boast for we only boasted one thing and that's the cross but we want that let people know especially our Mormon friends that we were very serious I mean we were very very serious in Mormonism and this is what second Timothy says and I can't read this because I don't have my glasses on so we just it says saved us and called us to a holy calling not because of our works that because of his own purpose and grace and here's the miracle which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began well purpose he's called us and he's called you yeah he's called you to be a mouthpiece for Jesus in this area yeah okay we just have one story every person has a unique story every person could get up here and give a unique story but he's called us and he wants us to do the work and it's done from the foundation of the world and again it's not because of what we have done it's everything that he has done amen you can't you can't even begin to understand in Mormonism it's all about me and Christianity it's all about him that's the big difference yeah so moving on here so here we were back in 1977 when we joined the LDS Church October 28th 1977 as you can see I have not changed any Allen's changed a little bit and those pants I have those in the closet they're gonna be in style any day now okay so so anyway this is empirical evidence that we were baptized okay all dressed in white and here the we let them Muncie Indiana okay the home of Garfield the cat the the town of David Letterman you know famous people of Muncie so but we used to go to the Washington DC temple to do baptisms for the dead and to do endowments that's like a 13 hour drive now we weren't wealthy at that point okay now here we are in front of the Washington DC temple now it's not like that we win in a temple and came out with three children okay so don't don't think that that's where you pick up your children no that's not correct okay so that what we did we hook a babysitter with us we paid for multiple hotel rooms and again we were not wealthy paid the babysitter to watch our kids why we would go in and do temple endowments ten to twelve hours a day we were dedicated okay I mean I was ready to stand before God and say see what I've done oh not a good thing to do okay so moving on here so we we moved to Utah in 1999 LEM will talk about the LEM became a full professor at BYU okay to school of the prophets here's our strong active Mormon family in 2001 okay so some of those you'll notice that Mike is on the right-hand side and Joshua oldest son and if you've read the book you'll you'll know all the characters in here so we read that Josh she went to Russia for his mission went out about 200 pounds came back about a hundred and fifty five pounds it was a hard hard mission okay so it's but you know it's surprised that Heath well he almost saw CIL's live multiple times it was very very hard mission this is Matt he went to Denmark it wasn't quite as hard but it is also cold I was always worried about his hand since he's a pianist and I bought these special mittens for him to go out on his mission paid like $100 for them in like two months out on his mission he gives them to some poor homeless person who was cold and needed gloves and he gave his mittens away praise God yeah he has the right heart he's a very very gentle person this is Micah and this is a that envelope is what they call mission call this is really really really exciting when we do a mission call in the Mormon Church we lived in Alpine Utah at this point which is 99.9 active LDS is the most active town in the world okay so so about five o'clock in the morning we get a call from the post office and they say hello we have your son's the mission call would you like to come down and pick it up or do you want us to deliver it at one o'clock well you know we jumped in the car at five o'clock in the morning and we went down we picked it up so we're sitting at a house there like it six o'clock in the morning already to find where God has Micah - okay because we really believe this is the calling from God through the Prophet where his he's going to be sent on his mission Joshua sent to Russia Matt to Denmark where's God gonna send Micah well God sends Micah to the emergency room okay and that was his colleague well actually when he was in the MTC in Provo he's an athlete he's run track he put a basketball was great his lung collapsed in the MTC God had his finger on this scenario instead of being sent to Mexico City they felt it'd be too dangerous for him to go to Mexico City high altitude 8,000 feet and a lot of pollution so since he had as a lung collapse you know they called us Kerry as an emergency room and what's unique about the zealous young missionary what do you notice about that he's wearing his nametag in the emergency room in the hospital okay so this is this is how zealous micah was okay so so he you know he took it in stride he thought he was going to Mexico City now he's gonna go to you know where he got sent to God has a great sense of humor the happiest place on earth where is that Orlando Florida so if you seen the Book of Mormon musical that person was jealous because he got sent to Orlando mission okay so so this is a state of our family in relationship as being active Mormons and this is what Paul stated to the Jews okay he says brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved think of the Jews think of the Mormons who are under a legalistic system for I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God and Mormons do have a zeal for God in fact in a way of much higher yielding Christians but not according to knowledge again this is Paul speaking so eloquent for being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own what the Mormons try to do you know you go to the temple they do all these works they do this and that and so forth which is nothing wrong with doing good works praise God we should do good works we have to understand what good works in Mormonism going to the temple doing works for the dead you know so we look at this and says seeking to establish their own they did not submit to God's righteousness they do not submit to Christ's righteousness on the cross of doing the work for us that we couldn't do for ourselves okay you remember the rich young ruler that story the parable just think you take that on through you know he leaves and the apostles of God who have we done enough Jesus are we - we left family we left friends you know have we done enough works are we gonna make it I love this first what Jesus says to him what is impossible for man to do is possible for God and what he was saying he said you cannot work your way to heaven but I will do the work for you on the cross what's impossible for man is possible for God then he goes on in chapter 6 and John and States is so well when everybody's asking well what's the work we're to do to believe in him who he has sent that's what it is so you can get into chapter Jane you know James and everything else works are fine but there's no place in the Bible there's no place in the Bible where works where the Bible says you are saved by works period do you find it you let me know okay moving on here very quickly so Mike you get sent to Florida later on he testifies what happens is that Myka becomes challenged by a Baptist preacher SILS darn Baptist preachers and Micha ends up reading the Bible twelve times or the New Testament twelve times over his two-year mission and if you take a young man with the Word of God and a private area with the Holy Spirit something's going to happen and instead of reading the Bible to prove Mormonism is right God used his own arrogance and his own pride to switch it around and said you're not proven Mormonism's right by reading my word I'm showing you how it is incorrect and he becomes a born-again Christian three three weeks left on his mission Wow that's God at work our mozella son the most zealous kid probably in Utah at that time I'm serious okay the one book break but you know if I'm gonna live race kids to be active Mormons I was very good at it okay so but moving on here so he he gives his testimony in front that just three weeks left two weeks left on his mission he's he's asked to stand he becomes born again three weeks and then he's asked the mission president says hey Micah you're going home tell the congregation tell all these Mormon missionaries and these other leaders around here what you have learned your last two years on your mission was supposed to be a stronger testimony of Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon that we have the the church is true and that you know and we have a living prophet and so forth okay well it was just the opposite he got up there and testified only of Christ basically said that Jesus is enough never said anything negative about Mormonism but gave the scriptures and and talked about a relationship with Jesus and some of the people that were there who have come out of Mormon church that heard him speak say that they have never heard a testimony like that in a Mormon setting he said there wasn't a dry eye in there that it was not pleasing to his mission leader so he gets sent home from his mission and I'm actually sitting in my office and I get a call from my stake president and he says brother Wilder we've got a problem with your son he's coming home anytime now I just got a letter saying that he's served an honorable mission and everything he told me verbally on the phone your son has the spirit of the devil in him they called him an antichrist and so forth so you know and you know I look back if I were going to leave the church I should have done it at that time and I should have grabbed the state president by the tie and said my son's not an antichrist okay but I didn't I'm sad to say I was so embedded I let him have authority over me even though he called my son an antichrist I'm sad to say that I did not stand up because it was months a year later before I ever left the LDS Church okay see what guy was more than a year later so it's this amazing story so anyway Jesus and enough when we go on here and so now you're going to get into the heavy doctrine okay so get your pencils out remember the test at the exam again so all that my dear wife take it from here actually Mike I've I've been kind of feeling like the spirit just wants me to go off power point and just kind of talk to you about the amazing things that God did is so frustrating sometimes not to be articulate enough to explain what it's like to be before Jesus and after Jesus this amazing profound change and transformation right the gospel of Jesus can do in your life so I'm just gonna tell you some of the things and I would call this the god of wonders I love that phrase from songs rate some of the amazing things God did with us Micah challenged us to read the Bible like a child as a Mormon I didn't trust the Bible but I loved my son and so we promised him that we would and Mike and I sat up in bed and started reading the word whoa this was piercing me it wasn't very long before he knew this isn't the gospel of Mormonism this is very different in fact this doesn't seem like the God of Mormonism this is very different right when God decides to remove that veil then it goes ten months of just being so hungry for the word I couldn't put it down one night after ten months of reading I knew that this god of the New Testament was bigger than the God that I was familiar with in Mormonism and I was ready to give the rest of my life to the God of Mourne ISM I came upon the verse that says it was as if God was speaking right to me these are the very words that testify of me you know about his scriptures but you refused to come to me to have life that's in John 5 and then I hit whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life and I said Lord I want to cross over this night I'm ready to cross over and so after Mike and Katie went to bed one cold October night 10 months after reading the word I didn't even know what a Christian was I didn't even know what I was doing I knew nothing about this laid facedown in the carpet like I dread that the Jews do and arms out and across and just said Lord I'm yours saved me do you know that this is how awesome God is seven years later my my son-in-law was reading through the Psalms and said mom you know that verse is in Psalm 19 God was doing all this weird stuff I didn't even know the word right and yet he's using the word to draw me and to teach me there was a time when I had a dream of my daughter being sprinkled with blood I'd never read in the Old Testament where they use sprinkling of blood with a hyssop branch right to cleanse things and yet the night she got saved I had a dream that she was sprinkled with blood and then I read it in the Old Testament right oh my gosh this God was like freaking me out my old God had never done stuff like that after I gave my life to Jesus one of the things that was so different I'm not a visual person my husband's world visual right this is typical and I'm auditory after I got saved it was as if the world looked different the colors were brilliant trees I hadn't seen before you know almost as if you can see into the souls of people and I actually got into photography cuz I was so enamored by this new world about two weeks after I'd given my life to Jesus I had this life-changing dream one night where I actually got to see the Lord I did not speak to him I could barely lift my head I was so just moved to be in his but that too then changed me I knew he was real oh I knew he was living he is real he is living he's not just some idol that you throw up prayers to write he's real and he's living about six months after I got saved I was still hiding it I'm at BYU and I'm not allowed to have a cross on campus so I got saved in October Christmas Day I take up my 30 years of Mormon garments I put this cross on but I'm afraid to be seen with the cross at work because I'm not allowed to have it I know I'll get in trouble and then I'll lose my job so I'm wearing these high neck clothes right hiding my cross all the time it's a great story in the book unveiling grace about how I lost my cross on campus one time God supernaturally got it back in my hands and I called just beginning just at those beginning stages of a new Christian to understand that he's personal that he loves me that he shows up my life's freaky so here I am underground not bold hey he knew I'd lose 30 years of friends my job my neighbors you know I knew I'd lose and I wasn't ready for that so one day I'm in my office at BYU and one of Micah's friends comes to see me and she says you know I've delayed my entrance to law school and I'm gonna go on a Mormon mission and this little voice in my head says so what are you gonna say the word are you really proud of her so is it time you made a decision are you LDS or are you not LDS bug and me in my head so I remember saying to oh you're really excited about your mission I thought well I'm not really lying right I'm just kind of okay well this was stirring in my head are you LDS are you LDS are you still LDS have you actually made a decision for Christ are you bold enough you know like Micah was to stand up for me it's two days before Easter and I'm on my way home from work and I stopped by the Super Walmart to get some stuff and this is stirring in my head are you al - yes are you LDS go through the line at the grocery store and the clerk leans over to me looks right at me and says so are you LDS are you ever going you're a god plant you were an angel you are not a human you are freaking me out God I know you want me to make a decision but this is so scary right Friday in my face and I was so freaked out by that literally I just kept thinking this has got to be an angel that the very next day the Saturday before Easter I go back to the Walmart to see if that guy really works there every line you know is full of clerks and I'm thinking surely if he works here he's gonna be right there one of and and he wasn't there now I don't know if I encountered an angel but I know that God was working with me and and trying to move me along because once you're saved and the Spirit sets up residence then the real work starts right then the change starts happening God was convicting me of sin showing me ugly stuff about myself I was totally unaware of just this amazing stuff what else did he do Michael came along a few months later right and we made a decision let's see oh the next thing that God did was I knew I couldn't go back to BYU the next year right the honor code says if you leave the Mormon Church you can't stay at BYU and that's true for students so our son that went to Denmark the pianist got to his senior year professed Christ and couldn't graduate BYU God's had him as in ministry for the last 1012 years right behind this classical piano behind a little keyboard God's God is good well the next thing that I remember that God did was I had no job in the fall and it's summer right and I I we've got kids in college and we feel like I need to work so I'm alone in June in 2007 in the house and the phone rings and this lady says I'm the Dean of the College of Education at Florida Gulf Coast University in Fort Myers Florida I have your paperwork in front of me and I'd like to offer you a job I had not a point there I had no freaking I had no idea how the lady got my stuff or that she even had a job open right and I remember when she said that to me I just fell to my knees threw the phone out here and said you can get me a job I didn't even apply for you can even do that this walk you know when we help Mormons out because the God there used to never did these kind of things they are not used to what God is able to do and they don't really trust and write it first in you I mean this is true for all of us when we get saved right you have to walk with Him a little while until he becomes large for you and then you trust him a little more and then a little more and a little or I mean in higher ed they have to post a job a year ahead there has to be a search committee I mean these things just don't happen but God right but God and I had the sense that God actually loved me knew I existed and had some kind of weird plan for my life had nothing to do with lifting an Alpine right and teaching at BYU so Mike comes home from work and I said honey two weeks later we packed everything up we went to Florida we've been there ever since yeah that's God right I was I was there at Florida Gulf Coast University for ten and a half years and just retired less blessed in January Wow and boy the stuff God did there the next really big thing that I remember was we decided it was time to officially resign from BYU and officially resigned from the Mormon Church so that would have been spring of 2008 and this was Michael's idea we should resign on March 16th in honor of John 3:16 so we wrote out our resignation letters and he literally got on a plane and flew them to Salt Lake took them right to the office building yeah it is do you wanna one of the things that we have been praying about was Lord is this just a temporary job in Florida are we going back to Utah we still had a house in Utah right or are you going to keep us in Florida we have no idea what you're doing with our life we lost all our friends we don't have any new friends we're so confused about what's true what isn't true what's in the Bible what's in the Book of Mormon you know but this had been our prayer Lord are you going to keep us here or take us back to Utah and the day after we gave up our membership in the in the church somebody called Mike's cell phone they just happen to be driving through our neighborhood an Alpine no nobody does that it's one block away from national forests like who drives through the neighborhood right somebody from California drove through the neighborhood saw we had this little for sale by owner up and actually the snow was just now letting it show called his cell he called the renters they let him through the house offered us cash 2008 does that ring a bell middle the middle of the downturn in the economy right but God yeah so write these letters I said I'm personally because I still do business got so so I said well I'm just going to my these letters with me personally take them to the church office by itself and while I was there I drove to our house and our sign was covered with three feet of snow so I happened to dig it out just when I was there and wouldn't it happen because I took the time and take those letters a dope that's find out it was the next ace of ice all now we don't believe in prosperity gospel okay but God was prepping our lives and showing us what he knew because things were still hard we still had our time mentally going through his out of Mormonism into Christianity it's it took like a five years bending process and I it's a very very hard process and I would not want anybody to go through what we have because you have to discourage your mind of everything we used to go to church to the Bible study meeting this insane and I started asked advice and that's it we just didn't know God was working with us and eventually once he gets a hold of yeah yeah life's not perfect nice hard we still work hard all amen you know when people think well once you become Christian everything be perfect okay and you know I love diverse when Christ says they hated me and if I'm in you they will hate you too hmm and we've run across that multiple times the things that University things I've done with clients and other things but then God does a surprise Wow so whoever's in charge give me a sense of how much time we have it's 8:00 now are you in charge oh it says 8:30 awesome so I can talk a little longer we can do Q&A if you'd like would you like to do some Q&A so you can actually ask some questions that are interesting to you and stuff okay so like Mike said we were so confused took us five years in Bible studies bugging our pastor to death in church every time the doors were open women's Bible studies begging Christians to teach us because it was so confusing so many things so the handout you have is something that Adams Road has put together in its 40 Mormon topics and all the bible scriptures on that topic that tell the truth about that topic it's such a wonderful resource I talked to people leaving Mormonism every day and I use it every day every day every day every day to help people get so that it doesn't take them five years like it took me it still does sometimes take a while to walk with the Lord so at the five-year point I remember almost being suicidal being face down one day just crying out to the Lord I have no friends I've lost everything I don't understand what you're doing with me and the Lord spoke to me and said hang on Lyn you're about to rise up and soon after that I just got enough of the word in me and I was washed by the wall the word enough that I knew what was true and I was ready to move forward all of a sudden just this kind of stability came upon me and then one morning I'm in prayer and I hear the Lord speak and say I need for you to write oh I did not want to write I did not want my sins and my brokenness and my family it's horrible I mean Micah's Christian his brothers are Mormon they're all fussing at each other my perfect family was torn apart right who wants that in public no one but God did so he began to give me unveiling grace and it was a download it was the most strange download from the spirit literally spirit would wake me up in the middle of night give me phrases give me names of chapters and I knew it was God's work and not mine and I had no idea what he had in mind for this thing but for such a time as this he had created this story and now he was making it publicly available whether I liked it or because the stuffs gonna hit the fan when it does become public rage oh gosh so I begin to write and I email this this friend of mine who's a Christian author and I say all the weirdest thing happened I woke up today and God would ask me to write she said okay I want your first chapter by Monday I thought why not okay so I put something down I threw it to her and she said okay I want chapter two by next Monday so I put something down send it to her she said you will not believe this and I wasn't going to tell you this at first but Zondervan the big Christian publisher had just contacted me and asked me if I'd do a book on Mormonism and I had just signed a contract for a series of books and I knew I couldn't do it and then your email comes across but she said I don't know anything about you and I didn't know if you could write or not so that's why made you write those two chapters and then she went I think you can write but of course it's the Holy Spirit right the dude did it and she helped me propose it to Zondervan and they called me six months later and they said well that was a nice book proposal but we want you to write your family story I struggled for a long time but I did write it and and it was it was a download it was the most amazing experience with the Lord Jesus Christ it was published God did his thing with it but he did all these freaky things like sauna van publishes 50 books every six months so who's going to pay attention to unveiling grace well they took their newest books to some Book Fair in New York and people like Katie Couric were showing interest in it because it's election time right and Romney's running so Zondervan hires a PR firm to promote unveiling grace because they're thinking people might be interested in this book but God so all of a sudden I'm on the radio with Janet Parshall and on the 700 club and that wasn't my doing and it certainly wasn't my plan right the other thing God did was put the BYU professor on the thing I mean I would never have gone to school but God actually sent me back to school at one point and then woke the whole story together then saves a Mormon missionary then brings the whole family out for such a time as this people are just flooding out of the Mormon Church right now they tend to go to hardcore atheism and agnosticism so here we are if you have any important friends or neighbors they are questioning the church I just spoke to a pastor an hour ago or so who called me on the phone and we're going there tomorrow night and she said you know there's a couple coming tomorrow night and the husband actually was instrumental in and helping to build the Gilbert temple but they're having doubts and they're gonna be there tomorrow and God is just reaching and in saving people and sometimes they don't even know what's happened to them calling a remnant out but it's not just happening in Mormonism right is happening in Islam probably through atheism and the LGBTQ community in all kinds of places does this go on all the time maybe is this the last days thing maybe but it's definitely God's work right and so we need to step in and do what he's doing and right now he's working with the Mormon people so those are group who are who were with them it's such an opportunity for you to love on them befriend them have relationship with and pray with them over things they're struggling about tell them what your Jesus has done in your life they think they have the same Jesus as you so when they find out they're Jesus is impotent and silly they assume yours is too that's why you have to tell them what your Jesus can do but that's true for anybody outside of Jesus right they all think what you have is silly unless you were very clear about who he is how he's changed what it can do one last story and then we'll do some Q&A so this is one of the most profound things he did within the last few years I was in a Bible study Mike and I called experiencing God Henry Blackaby because when it came out of Mormonism I was so confused about how to hear from God did I trust any of these weird little spiritual experiences did they come from I didn't know right so I take this Bible study and he goes through the Bible and tells you four ways that you can pretty much trust that this is going to be God in answer to prayer one night they go through the scripture that say God's always at his work well what's God's work God's work is to draw people to Jesus okay so God is always at his work he's working day and night 24/7 softening people's heart and bringing people to Jesus right but we don't know who they are because we can't see people's hearts but we can pray and ask God to show us who he's already working with within our sphere of influence okay I'm a new Christian I still don't know although God's done all those freaky things I don't know how big he is so just because Bible study made us I prayed that prayer that night Micah died God show me who you're already working with around me I call into work the next day and I walk down this hall and one of my colleagues goes you I dreamed about you last night come come here and a meeting of my brain goes oh this has nothing to this has nothing to do with that prayer I prayed last night right no well it did it did she tells me this dream she said you and I went to Washington DC together and she tells me I was leading a tour group and this voice kept telling her what she says you need to hear and where she goes you need to go I won't go through the whole dream but she turns to me at the end and says what do you think to do with that I don't know what to think and I just walked out went down in my office I got home from work and I'm going Mike what do you think this is a weirdest thing do you think that oh I'm sure that hasn't been right three days later she comes marching down the hall into my office closes the door quite strongly sits down I to I with me and says I don't think you understand I've been praying about a personal relationship with Jesus and I think he's sending me to you okay now that's a crazy enough story but here's the rest of that story oh no no Christian I don't know how to evangelize I'm like Lord I don't know what to do right okay I'll ask her some questions so do you know anything about Jesus have you ever had the Bible like did you ever go to church growing up or anything like that she said well 10 years ago when I was in Europe and I was in law school I joined the Mormon Church I'd worked with this woman for years I had no clue but God knew and until I asked him to show me somebody whose heart he's already softening does he connect us and that took us on a year-and-a-half journey with them getting them in Bible studies they connected at first to a Nazarene Church she and her husband and then later to an assembly of God Church and they're very strong today we just saw her a couple weeks ago praise God right we sell him short we we look at people and go you're talking to Mormonism there is no way you're come to Jesus you're not gonna listen to what I have to say right no one is outside of the reach of God's grace don't ever see we have had Muslim converts from the book unveiling grace how crazy is that who could ever have predicted that I get a call one day from a ministry in Iraq that says I think we can use this book to bring courage to Christ because it doesn't hit against Mohammed so it doesn't get us in trouble but it's the same story from works to grace and then we've heard from all kinds of places people that have been in Catholicism or wherever they're feeling this legalism look at this study these are American Christians faith in God alone gets you to heaven or you have to do good deeds Plus faith to go to heaven look at that Catholics you know this is kind of be expected 80 percent of Catholics think you have to do good works to be led into heaven right but still that's a lot of Christians that think they have to do works so a story like this takes people from works to grace how crazy is our God for such a time as this so this morning I spoke in a Bible study 250 women show up one of them came up to me she was LDS and she'd read unfailing grace last Friday and I just happened to be in the area and she came this morning and she was on fire for Jesus she said I started reading the New Testament over the weekend and she showed me her pages and pages and pages of notes she had already she said I've been up to like 4:00 in the morning just reading and it's like that's when you know the spirits got ahold of right another woman there who said the last time we were here four years ago she had seen someone stream it online got saved and then she I may look like a trickle but to us it's an everyday thing you know every day every day and I've never been so excited about my life then to see people to come to the Lord and it gives me this renewed hope right to go back to that place every time where we came from and so we give God all the glory and encourage you to speak to people about Jesus to pray with people to tell them how big your God is and don't remember you know what he's done for you so let's take the next 10 minutes or so and do some Q&A and then we'll let you go we actually have three books now seven reasons we left Mormonism is a quick hundred page doctrinal guide Mormonism Christianity Mormonism Christianity it's $5 okay now it costs us 550 to get that we sell for $5 but we're gonna make it up in volume we have a million grace which is the story and it will teach you about the culture Mormonism better than any other broker out there that's what Robbie Ravi Zacharias has been using this as his go-to book on Mormonism you know so in the back - there's a whole thing Mormonism teaches Bible teaches Mormonism teaches Bible teaches side-by-side Mormon scripture bible scripture comparisons it's $10 or you can get this to this and seven reasons for 15 alright and then the last one we did is a little bit of a scholarly work to kind of get the Mormon apologists like us to pay attention and come into conversation with us lots of people have left and gone to atheism they feel like they're intellectuals that gone to this new atheism and so this book actually addresses New Atheism things like the problem of evil the reliabilities Bible actually logical thinking and evidences oh I have no doubt because the Mormon Church taught us if we're not true nothing's true and that's a lie still stuck in their head we you know Mormon Church is perfect the organization is perfect there's nothing out there like us the other reason is they're taught your lessor their greater you have a little of the truth they have the fullness of the truth you both have the same God so when they're done with their God they're naturally done with your God it never occurs to them to come to you for the answers because no one ever told about the differences right yeah yeah all of our kids are out of Mormonism and three of them are in ministry yeah yes sir oh that's a good question wishes yes yeah I was raised Baptist kind of Southern Baptist and it'll be the Hellfire and damnation Baptist so actually a bit more of an Independent Baptist now think about it and I picked up some misconceptions about the Bible and I always tell people they people ask me so why did you join the Mormon Church and I always state this answer I knew enough about the Bible to be dangerous see I knew terms of the Bible which the Mormons use to draw you in but I didn't understand what the Bible really thought I didn't understand the doctrine of grace okay I didn't understand the doctrine of the Trinity okay because when when people ask us now who are we we say were black all Christians and I'm a biblical Trinitarian okay so I don't you know so I just say I don't believe that just because the people of Nicaea the council of nicaea at 325 AD came up the concept of the trinity that's when it was invented it's always been in the Bible mm-hmm you just had to draw it out they just came up with that term because to me without the concept of understanding the Trinity you cannot reconcile the Old Testament with the New Testament you make Jesus a liar and we know Jesus is not a liar so how do you reconcile that so so we got into it I just got drawn in and the people the Mormon people are so nice and wonderful they they just love you to death I mean they really did they pulled us in I have to just start teaching I just finished up my masters and was invited to teach at Ball State University of I was trying to decide to get a doctorate degree and one of the professor's above me that worked with me was LDS and they were like in their 50s we were in there 20s and they just adopted us and it just you know they just love to cinema and and you know what people being so nice how can they be wrong but if you know the word it's not about niceness it's not about works it's about truth you have to understand the truth you have to understand who God is who Jesus is what salvation is right right but but then the truth always has Christians it always has to go back to one place and that's back to Jesus that's a back type the words back to the Bible the emerg know so they start out the Bible on me right I asked the Mormon missionaries I said I held up the Bible and I held up Book of Mormon I said now you know I'm not a scholar the Bible I don't know a whole lot about the Book of Mormon just what you're having me read but they're eating right the Book of Mormon is not more important than the Bible he says they're people what I know now I mean that is an out-and-out lie because you know the eighth article of faith says we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly we also believe in the Book of Mormon period without a qualifier so the Book of Mormon is more perfect than the Bible so those are the things you get into so once you join the Mormon Church you start getting you moved away from the Bible into understanding the prophets teachings of Joseph Smith you start getting into replacing a Bible with the Book of Mormon then you start getting into the heavier doctrine you go to the temple you started studying doctrine having this then eyepiece form where you get into heavier doctrine and I was the high priest I've made the high priest at the ripe age of what 36 like that I don't think it matters that's left okay that it takes a while because when name was coming out of Mormonism I still believe because of my lineage is a high priest I had to pull my family together Hyper I knew that they were just going through this stage it says in doctrine covenants 1:32 that Joseph Joseph Smith says he can go to hell and bring em out if she that's his wife if she ends up there so as a high priest he believed that he had the power to pull his family out of how I grew up Presbyterian and we went to church every week but I knew nothing about the word my parents never opened the word never talked about the word and I could not tell you how to get saved so I had a general sense that Jesus was good I wanted the moral teachings and stuff but knew absolutely no doctrine the antidote to all this is the Word of God the Bible says us over and over and over yes and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution but evil people and imposters will flourish they will deceive others and will themselves be deceived but you must remain faithful you have been taught the Holy Scriptures from childhood and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus all scriptures inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong that is the bottom line and yet not only do we not know it we don't articulate it yeah yeah mm-hmm yeah mm-hmm right happily first of all ask God to show you who he's already working with because if you're if you're trying to bring somebody to Jesus that's not coming in 10 years you're just banging your head against the wall right and especially when people are really dug in but there are lots of people on the edge that are already so you're look you're gonna be looking for this guy that put together the Gilbert temple but he has doubts about the church right that's who that's who I think God will have you work with although there there are ways Greg copal talks about the Columbo technique and one of the things he says with a Columbo technique this this is the best way to witness to Mormons is never use a statement when a question will do so they teach something called the great apostasy after the 12 apostles died the church went into a great apostasy and then the real Church of Jesus didn't come back till Joseph Smith brought it back so I'll scratch my head and say well that confuses me because of something I think I read in the Bible of Jesus sad so I pull out Matthew 16:18 which says Jesus own words on this rock I'll build my church and the gates of Hell perfect against it right I was a Mormon 30 years never knew that was in the Bible so I just say do you mind reading this out loud and then telling me what you think because they are prideful because you know when you do more good works right then you're more righteous if you have a temple recommend so you need like Paul did he worked within the people's culture so I'm very respectful to a high priest Michael say you must be a high priest rate so can you read this out loud and tell me what this says or I'll say to them so have you reconcile the fact that Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against his church but Joseph Smith said it went into great apostasy literally they've never thought about those things and you're planting seeds and you're Christian so you can innocently ask those questions you probably don't know much about Mormonism right but you know your word you don't have to know their doctrine you don't have to what a waste to learn right you just you just let them talk ask them about their faith and then you ask questions back drill down and use scripture as you can yeah the clock I tell them I'm gonna be and after the event that happened there I can tell why Mormons don't have Bible studies at least not open Bible studies because I got that poor teacher so confused about the bike and she was talking about something and maps you and I was trying to ask her who Jesus was what do you believe about Jesus and she just kept saying we believe in heavenly Father Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and so I said well who is Jesus you know and this really couldn't drill down into that and then I read I think chapter 2 in Colossians and she says I don't know why you're reading from there we were studying the Bible Washington's ascendant New Testament so she didn't know she really didn't know that and so they just before they call the police just did other people there who were Christians also begin to ask them question and she lost it one time Jesus is a God and somebody says so he's not God he is a duck does that mean you believe in more than one God and Vinson we would even Jesus well what do you believe what is the nature of God and so forth and so that's a good reason why they probably don't have that many Bible studies all these open Bible studies seminary yes yes yes we used to teach that it's called seminary yes yes and this is how they do it they have student manuals okay so I had a teachers manual the students each had student manuals we didn't actually open our Bibles and read things in contests so that you could see the verse ahead of it and behind it they would teach a concept in the student manual and cherry-pick of Scripture right and yeah and until I got saved none of that occurred to me right and then I went back on whoa whoa and they were very strict you cannot deviate from the manual well now I know why if you just sometimes if you just read the rest of the verse it refutes what they say it says right in front of them where they'd explained right Book of Mormon church history and Doctrine and Covenants mm-hmm [Music] mmm-hmm then they do the Book of Mormon they do church history to do today going down cycle yeah for a four-year period okay and they cherry pick all those verses yes plus the version they use as King James and it cross-references to the Book of Mormon the Doctrine and Covenants and other things like something called the jst Joseph Smith translation so before Joseph Smith died he went through the entire Bible and fixed all the things that were wrong and has called the Joseph Smith translation and right there in the Mormon King James in their footnotes it'll often take you to the Joseph Smith translation you really understand okay yeah amen good good so you're not seeing the Mormons anymore praise God praise girls it's awesome in yeah yeah he has a jealous Katya he wants no other gods before him there's only one guy mazurka one dependence Missouri mm-hmm yeah and that's where Jesus will return secretly to the Mormon priesthood before he returns for the whole world there's all kinds of interesting doctrine yeah oh yes sometimes yeah all that you know everything outside of Jesus is works based and not grace based right and only Jesus is Grace babe the she was asking if we run into Jehovah Witnesses ever very very similar right and Islam is extremely similar to Mormonism Joseph Smith called himself the second Muhammad he was aware another angel Gabriel Moroni brings another gospel starts out as an Abrahamic faith morphs into this stuff with additional scripture becomes works-based faith do you know that of the five pillars of Islam right one of them is you need to make a pilgrimage to Mecca sometime during your lifetime do you know if you died and you didn't make the pilgrimage somebody can go for you after you're dead on your behalf just like the temple work in the Mormon temple plus in Islam when you go on the Hajj you go to Mecca there's a white building that you go in wear white clothes and make covenants duh was your family very similar right well and then the other similarity of course is you never know that you're saved until the end of life if you've done enough good works maybe God will save you that's Mormonism dis long and then a reward for righteous men it's multiple women in the next life right don't you think Satan kind of figured out what people life and just kind of swing it a little different each time only Christianity has someone else did it for you saved by grace hmm I did not see that that oh yeah she said that the Mormon Church asked its people to reach out to their Muslim brothers there was the president of the student body at byu-hawaii a couple years ago was Muslim and at BYU where I was in Provo the Middle Eastern languages center for all the military CIA government people in the US that want to learn Farsi and whatever need to learn it for espionage and stuff right there at BYU yeah interesting parallels huh yeah yes ask uh-huh mm-hmm right it's a good question ya think yeah and the second part of that is that when to get them into the word for the answers yeah so she said she often uses questions with women and she will ask them a Mormon woman what if your husband decides not to call you up in the resurrection if your temple were that you're not resurrected by Jesus Christ you're a woman is resurrected by her husband yeah yeah the way you tell something's true and Mormonism is you it's a feeling feeling feeling you're looking for a burning in the bosom did we ever pray whether Mormonism was true I did not Mike dude I did and I never got a burnin into my bosom but I did have a dream and I was dreaming about defending the Mormon people and what that dreamed to me at that point I felt was a reason I should join the Mormon Church okay I think the true meaning of that dream is today when it says I'm defending the Mormon people I'm calling them to come out of Mormonism into a relationship with Christ okay so it's it's all way you want to look at something but God just like it said and you know Timothy we were reading earlier he called us I believe very strongly he called us into Mormonism for a purpose for a time as this and to call us out so that people when you know if if I'm up here and I've never been the Mormon and I talk about Mormonism I it's just not gonna have the same weight as it has with me I mean I used to play God in the temple okay I worked the veils I've sat in multiple church courts I've seen grown men cry like a baby asking for forgiveness I've seen I've seen it all okay and so and we've studied it all and we really did believe I really believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and was the way him until you know you get that testimony than God says okay it's time to change now I'm going to remove that veil and it was it was a veil on my eyes because when I read the scriptures during 30 years of Mormonism I did not see any conflicts I really didn't and when God says okay Mike I'm going to take that veil off I go it's totally different than what I used to believe and and that's the same thing with the Jews when it's revealed wow they're going to see Jesus just like that so so it's all his glory and his work through us thank you so much our cards are in the back and they have it rings right into my cell number and my email and I try to answer fairly quickly so if there's any way we can help you if there are any materials our websites are full of good materials and they'll send you to other materials for witnessing but remember to love them treat them with respect and use questions plant questions and use the word you

Channel: Calvary Chapel Maricopa

Views: 383

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Michael Wilder, Dr. Lynn Wilder, Mormon church, LDS, unveiliung grace

Id: oIuQnujN4l8

Length: 85min 18sec (5118 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 25 2018