[Oprah Winfrey] On May 19, 1983, Diane Downs and her three children were shot on Old Mohawk Road in rural Oregon. Police scoured the crime scene for months searching for the weapon, a .22 caliber gun that killed Cheryl, paralyzed Danny and wounded Christie and Diane. The gun was never found. Police claimed early on in the case that Diane Downs was responsible for the shootings of her children. But publicly, she voiced her innocence, claiming that a shaggy-haired stranger shot them. The two surviving children were placed in foster homes, later adopted with a court order restricting Diane from seeing them. Charged with one count of murder, two counts of attempted murder and two counts of assault in the first degree. The attempted murder carries a 20 year maximum penalty and the first degree assaults carry a maximum penalty of 20 years. The murder, of course, is punishable by life if convicted. [Oprah] Diane Downs was nine months pregnant when she was convicted on one count of aggravated murder, two counts of attempted murder. This July, Diane scaled an 18-foot razor wire fence, escaped from an Oregon prison. There was a 14-state manhunt for her, which she eluded for ten days. She was recaptured, sent to a New Jersey prison to serve her life sentence plus 65 years. Diane Downs joins us today via satellite from that prison. Diane, we're glad you could be with us. -How are you? -I'm fine, thank you. [Oprah] Good. Um, can you tell us, um, what happened on the night of May 19th, 1983. [sighs] On the night of May 19th, 1983, my children and I went to see a friend to take her a newspaper clip. Um, on the way home, a stranger was in the road. I stopped because he was flagging me, and I thought that he was, I thought he was in trouble or thought that he was hurt. Uh, when I stopped, he approached the car, and by the time I got out of the car, he was standing beside the car and he assaulted us. He, he asked for my car, and I made a smart remark, and perhaps I shouldn't have. [Oprah] What smart remark? What did you say? Well, he said he wanted my car and I said, "You've got to be kidding." That's, that's crazy. You just don't do that. And so, he assaulted me and my children. And... from that point, I took the kids to the hospital. [Oprah] Assaulted is a, is a... Yeah, that's a nice way of saying he shot us. -It's a mild term for what happened. -Right. Very mild, but I suppose you'd have to see things from my point of view. It's a very difficult thing. I very, very rarely talk about what happened that night because it is so painful. [Oprah] I know... I can imagine that it is, and, and you know what? I'm very glad that you agreed to talk to us today because that's exactly what we want to do, is to get your point of view. Uh, I want you to know that joining us here today is another guest that says there's no doubt in her mind of your guilt, Diane. She says that you are not crazy, but believes that you suffer from personality disorders. She's a former police woman and a best selling crime writer, Ann Rule, who authored such books as The Stranger beside Me, the Ted Bundy story and her current bestseller is Small Sacrifices, which is, in fact, your story, the Diane Down story. Have you read that book? Uh, yes, I have. -And what do you-- -I take issue. I take issue with much of it. Okay. Okay. What do you take issue with? Well, she considers it a true story, and she's quoted me all through the book and tells the reader how I'm feeling what I'm thinking at various times all through the book. Yet she's never interviewed me. How does she do that? How does she justify that being a true story? [Oprah] Okay, Ann, how do you justify that? Well, Diane, I'm sure you remember my coming to jail -and interviewing you. -[Oprah] June 26th. [Diane] 20 minutes, 20 minutes, Ann. And I also sat in the courtroom while you testified for four days and told your entire life, uh, from your childhood abuse, uh, through your marriage, through your multiple affairs, how you felt about it. And at one point, you said to the prosecutor, "Mr. Hugi, would you like me to explain how I met all my lovers and how our affairs were carried out?" And he said, "No, that wouldn't be necessary." [Ann] He did, and then you went ahead and told it anyway, Diane. Which for a writer, um... you helped me a lot in your testimony. -[Oprah] You say that-- -[audience laughs] -Excuse me. -You say, Ann, that, uh, that Diane is a writer's dream because she keeps diaries, written diaries and taped diaries. Or she has kept written diaries and tapes... -[Ann] And letters. -...and letters. I have several letters that Diane wrote to me [Diane] Several, Ann? Several? -Four. I consider four-- -[Diane] Two. We're, we're talking two [Ann] They're 14 pages long. Two of them are. And they're, um-- [Diane] So, you're stretching the truth. So, you're deciding that 14 pages equals four letters, And the fact is, Ann, there are a few quotes in the book that can be attributed to my testimony but only a few. Where did you get the rest of them? -Diane-- -Maybe... Okay, maybe that's a hard question. Maybe it's unfair to ask. -How about-- -[Ann] No, it's not. No, my dear. It's not a hard question. -You've got to let me answer it. -Go ahead. I have all of the tapes of the interrogations, uh, that you... when you talk to the detectives. And Diane talked to detectives-- [Diane] Ann, I have got that transcript of every one of those tapes, and they are not in there. They're not in there. Well perhaps you perceive it differently. -So you're saying-- -Well, perhaps the court will perceive it differently in the first of next year. How do you justify changing a dozen names in your book and still you falsified names and you call it a true book? How do you do that? How do you justify it? I changed the names of your lovers because some of their wives didn't even know they were having affairs with you. And it seemed no point in breaking up all those marriages, the ones that had not been broken up. [Diane] I didn't have a dozen lovers, but the fact is you're saying that you were protecting the innocent, right? [Ann] I never said that. -[Diane] You said-- -I said there's no point in embarrassing and hurting people any more. Okay, then how come-- Because you can understand, Diane... Diane, you can understand why the names would be changed because I got confused between Lew the lover, Nick the lover, Ronald... -because-- -Yeah, it confused me. Quite frankly-- [Oprah] We're jumping ahead of ourselves because there are a lot of people... They're about 20 million people watching this show today. And a lot of those people don't know your story. A lot of those people for... This is their first time-- And they surely don't know about it from reading Ann Rule's book. -Trust me. -[Oprah] Okay. Well, so, we need to tell them your story. So, on the night of May 19th, you were driving down this Old Mohawk Road. You say a stranger stood in the middle of the road, ask you for your car and you wouldn't give him the car, and he then shot your children. -Yes. -Okay. [Oprah] Um... How do you explain the fact that, and I'm jumping ahead of the story. Uh, explain the fact that during the trial... your own daughter Christie... stood or sat on the witness stand and said... "Mommy shot us." I think that is probably the biggest atrocity in this whole entire case. Because Christie... Another thing that Ann doesn't explain to you is that Christie was under the influence of massive amounts of drugs while she was in intensive care, including Dilantin. One of the side effects of Dilantin -is mental confusion and memory loss. -[Oprah] Mm-hm. She was interrogated 18 times while she was in intensive care with tubes running through her body. [Oprah] How do you know that? How do you know that? Were you there? [Diane] They're in the police... -There in the hospital reports. -Mm-hm They're in the hospital reports. And every time that Christie stated... When they asked her what happened to you, and Christie said, "I don't know," or "I don't remember." They said, "You're lying, Christie. You're lying to protect your mom." And not only that, it went on for nine months. I have the psychologist reports. [Oprah] What about the psychologist who testified that when he asked her to write down... Because it took... As you can understand, too, Diane, it is a very traumatic, uh... -[Diane] Extremely. -...experience. And so, from my understanding, it took a long time for the psychologist to get to the point where your nine-year-old daughter at the time, Christie, could trust him. And when he finally did ask her, they started out having her do drawings of the person who shot her. -[Diane] Yes. -And when she first did that drawing, -the person didn't have a face. -[Diane] Yes. According to the psychologist, she was afraid to even talk about this whole experience. So, it took a long time for her to get to the point where she could even write down the answer to his question, who shot Danny, her little brother. Who shot Cheryl? Cheryl, who is now dead and who shot you? And the answer to all of those questions, when your child, nine-years-old, wrote them in an envelope and asked that the envelope remained sealed, was "Mom". How do you explain... I mean, because my feeling is, you know, I don't know a lot about children, but that children would try to protect their mother. I can relate to what happened to Christie because I know what happened to me. She was given, oh, ultimatums, basically, Her attorney came to her the very day that she wrote down "Mom did this". They had been working on her for seven months, and every time she said, "Mom didn't do this. Mom is not mean. Mom loves us." They would say, "No, you're just being protective." It's in the notes. Um, at that... The time that she stated my mom did this, she had just received a visit from her attorney and she again asked to see Mom, and his answer to her was, "If you tell the truth, maybe you can see mom." Now, she had, by this time, Oprah, she knew what the truth was supposed to be, and it was what they wanted to hear because she had told them over and over and over what the truth was, and it wasn't good enough. They did the exact same thing to me. They kept telling me, if you just remember... They told me I had voids in my memory that there was 25 minutes of time missing, that I was hiding something, protecting something or whatever, and I wasn't telling everything, and I wasn't remembering everything. [Oprah] Well, this is quite an ordeal. Diane, this is quite an ordeal for anybody to have to go through innocent or guilty. I'll let you talk about that when we come back. Back in a moment [audience clapping] [audience clapping] So, we're talking today via satellite to Diane Downs, who is serving a life plus 65 year sentence term, for, um, she's been accused and convicted of shooting one of her, killing one of her children and shooting the other two. Ann Rule has written a book about it called Small Sacrifices. Diane disagrees with Ann about some of the things that are, that are written in this book. But Diane, I wanted to talk about... Just go through the events for the benefit of people who are watching and hearing this story for the first time. Because there are a lot of discrepancies in the minds of people who have heard the story and read the story. A lot of people don't understand how a mother could stand by and watch, watch, um, her three children be shot and not be hysterical. Well, it wasn't like going to the baseball field and having popcorn and hot dogs and watching. Uh, when it first happened, when it first started, I didn't even realize the man had a gun or what he was going to do. He didn't give me any indication as to his intention. I looked in the car, I was startled and my children were in the car, and this man approached my car. I looked into the car and saw my daughter being shot. From that point on, I don't have any memory until the man faced me again. I can't tell you what I did or did not do. So, you don't remember trying to pull the gun away from him, fighting him, kicking him, screaming, yelling, anything? -No, I don't remember that. -[Oprah] Okay. You remember now pretending to throw the keys. -[Diane] Yes, I do. -And-- That was after he turned back towards me. [Ann] And kicking him -and managing to... -Yes. ...jump in the car and raced to the hospital. Yes, Ann. And as a matter of fact, you didn't mention the fact that my arm was so absolutely contorted after the shooting. It was twisted and shoved back two inches, twisted at a 90 degree angle, which proves that there was a struggle. And there's also blood on the driver's seat, which is evidence of the fact that I jumped in the car and my arm fell against the seat, helplessly, as I stated. [Ann] But there was no blood at all in the driver part -and your arm... -[Diane] Ann, there was. There's photographs. ...was completely wrapped in a triangle bandage -made out of a towel. -[Diane] Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez, Ann, you're comical. You are so farfetched. I'm serious. There was a towel wrapped around my arm. Yes, there absolutely was. And I don't know how it got there any more than you know how it got there. Although I'm sure you could come up with something if you were given half the chance. [Oprah] So, let's continue the story, Diane. What happened after you were all shot? You got back into the car. -Yes. -[Oprah] And you, you drove... I drove to the hospital. ...at a high rate of speed or did you... I, I can't say how fast I drove. I know that there was a witness out there that testified that I was going approximately five to seven miles an hour -for a brief time. -[Oprah] There was a witness who said he was behind you for two minutes. -Yes. -Recognized the license plate being from Arizona, red car, either a Nissan, Toyota -or something of that model. -Yes. And said that the reason why he and his family noticed it is because they had to trail behind you for two minutes and you were driving so slow and they were afraid, afraid to pass you because no passing lane and so forth. And so, how do you explain the fact that you were traveling five miles an hour after your children were shot? First of all, I'm extremely thankful for Joseph Inman coming in and giving the information that he did because the police weren't even believing that I was out in that area. And he was able to put me exactly where the shooting happened. And he was the state's witness. Uh, during the time, I don't know. I don't know. I did not see him. I have no memory of him whatsoever. I was trying to turn Christie over. She was choking on her blood, and I did not realize that she had been shot in the chest. Cognitively, I did not realize that, And I was trying to turn her over so that she would not choke on her blood, not realizing that it was coming from her lungs. I was also trying to open the window on the passenger side because my left arm was of no use. And all these various things that were happening inside the car, putting the towel on my arm at some point, obviously, before I got to the stop sign where I realized that it was on and that... I am assuming that that's why I was going so slow. I can tell you, though, that from the point that Mr. Inman saw me until I reached the hospital took ten minutes to get there. And it took the detectives 15 minutes to drive that same route. So, obviously, I could not have been driving five miles an hour for very long. Tell me this, in Ann's book Small Sacrifices, there is a segment that is taken from police tapes where you had a conversation with a detective saying that you knew who the killer was. Mm. Yes. Oh, I remember that conversation. [Oprah] Okay, so, what's that all about? You knew who the killer was, you came and testified later that the killer... This is several weeks or months later, that the killer called your name. But that's something you forgot to tell police on the night of the night of the shooting. So, weeks later, you remember that the killer called your name and realized that you had a tattoo on your shoulder and so forth. Tell me, what's that all about? It isn't that I remember that, it was a combination of the stress, the pressure, the dreams, the drugs that I was given in the hospital. Um, very large amounts of Demerol. Were you afraid to tell police that you knew who the person was? No, no, no. I'm trying to explain-- -[Oprah] Okay, go ahead. -I did not know... -[laughs] -[Oprah] Go ahead. I did not know who this person was. The fact is, these tapes... That particular tape that you're talking about was done some time in July, the first part of July, I believe. The fact is, during that time, they were giving me the same contingency that they gave my daughter. Which is, if you remember all these things, then you can see your children. And until you remember these things, you cannot see your children. And I knew that I had told them everything that I knew cognitively. And yet they kept saying I had memory lapses. And so, I started accessing my dreams to... Because I believed that perhaps my unconscious dreams were telling me what had really happened. And that is where those stories, as they say, came from. Because I was believing I needed to believe those dreams to fill in the voids that they said I had. Because if I didn't remember, I couldn't see my kids. We're talking to Diane Downs via satellite from prison. Back in a moment. [audience clapping] Talking to Diane Downs serving a life plus 65 year sentence, uh, written about in the book Small Sacrifices. Diane is accused of shooting her three children, killing one of them. Ah, lot of people can't understand, Diane, why you'd be out on a dark road and stop for a stranger. Well, we were always out on dark roads, light roads, city roads, country roads. I was a single woman. I had been divorced for a couple of years and quite frankly, I got pretty used to driving by myself -with the kids. -[Oprah] So, late at night, -9:30, 9:45... -[Diane] Oh, sure. -...9:50, 10:00 at night. -Sure. The stranger's in the middle of the road. Uh... And so, it didn't even occur to you that, "Maybe I shouldn't stop." Well, I picked up many hitchhikers before. This man was not a hitchhiker, but I had picked up hitchhikers before, and nobody ever shot us before. And quite frankly, nobody had ever been... No strange man had ever treated me or my children in such a way. And I just had no preconceived notion that he might do those things. How did this man know your children were in the car? Because if the children were sleeping and lying down in the back of the car, it's dark on the road. How would he know to reach into the car and shoot three children separately? Oprah, I can only give you my conclusion as to what I think might have happened because I don't know. I didn't take the time to ask him how or why. -But when he... -[audience laughing] When he got inside the car, Um, there was a light on inside the car. He could have easily seen the children. If you want an opinion, -in my opinion... -[Oprah] Yeah. ...it is possible... There were witnesses that saw him out there on the road that night. About 30 people that saw him and all agreed that he looked like he was drugged in some way. It is very possible-- [Oprah] Where are those 30 people, Diane? This is the first time I heard that. Ann is not gonna tell you about that, but it's in the transcript. That's why best... I say best kept secrets is gonna tell you all the things. It's the best kept secret of Ann Rule's book basically. All the things that you were never told. There were 30 people. Mr. Wilson is a retired man. He was at a country club, a golfing country club with 30 men who saw him there also... [Oprah] Yeah, that's in Ann's book. That's in the book, that's in the book. And they went and talked... And they went and talked to this man who Mr. Wilson saw. -[Diane] No, no... -The police ruled him out. -Let me just tell you what I read. -Yes. "I read." [Oprah] They wouldn't talk to... The detectives wouldn't talk to the man that Mr. Wilson allegedly saw because Mr. Wilson, then, several days later, remembered that somebody who lived down the road fit the description. And so they had a name, they went and talked to the man and ruled the man out because the man had such a heavy, heavy lisp. And when they spoke to you, the detective said that you said there was no accent, there was no speech defect or anything that distinguished this man's voice from anybody else's. And so, this man that you're talking about was ruled out because of his speech. No, Ann Rule tells you that, but Mr. Wilson testified one year later that to the best of his knowledge, he has never seen the man that he saw on the road that night. And he wasn't even sure if he could identify him at that point. And that was one year later. So, if Ann is saying that he said that he, uh, contacted this gentleman and that he identified him and that he ruled him out at that time, she is fabricating again. [Oprah] No, the detectives did. Not Mr. Wilson, the detectives did. Ann, you want to respond to that? Well, I reported exactly what Mr. Wilson -told in the courtroom. -[Oprah] Mm-hm. [Diane] Oh, jeez. It's in the transcript, Ann. -[Ann] But, Diane... -I have the transcript. ...what happens in the courtroom is in the transcript. I have the transcripts, too, I was there. [Diane] No, you don't have the transcript. Why do you tell the people these things? So you say she doesn't have the transcript... [Diane] She doesn't. ...and she says she does. She doesn't. She asked me to provide her with my copy of the transcript, and I said no. Diane, you asked me to provide you with my copy of the transcript. -[audience laughing] -[Diane] Ann, I can't believe you're saying that. I can't believe you're saying this. Somebody's lying here. -You got it, you got it. -Somebody is lying. -I don't know who it is. -Oprah, I, I swear, I will send you a copy of the transcript of Mr. Wilson's testimony and then you can see for yourself who was lying. Mr. Wilson, one year after the shooting, testified that he has never seen this man, never identified this man, never even seen him ever again. [Oprah] Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty here. The whole thesis for the reason why you shot your children is that you had a lover, be he, Lew or Nick, I don't know what his true name is. [Diane] His real name is Nick. [Oprah] Okay. Nick. And that you had -this lover, Nick... -Yes. ...and you were -would you say-- -[Diane] "Totally obsessed." [Oprah] Were you obsessed? If you read the transcript, Oprah, and I really hate to sound like a broken record, but if you read the transcript, you're going to see that... [Oprah] I just want you to tell me. I don't care what the transcript says. I want you to tell me, were you obsessed with Nick? No. I don't think I've ever been obsessed with a man in my life. There are too many men in the world... -...quite frankly. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. So you were not... Okay, were you not... [Diane] I had many lovers at that time. Were you madly in love with him? I loved him. I've never been madly in love with anybody. Okay. Did you think that he was going to come and be with you? Were you trying to convince him to be with you and leave his wife? -No. No. -You were not. And as a matter of fact, if you let Mr. Knickerbocker tell you what happened. In the transcript, he tells you that the reason I left Arizona was to give him an opportunity to figure out what he wanted, basically. There was no pressure involved. [Oprah] My point is, were you never trying to convince him that life with your children could be okay because he had said that he did not want to be a daddy or raise children. No, As a matter of fact, even Mr. Knickerbocker testified it-- Ann keeps forgetting this. But then again, Ann was only there for, like, half of the trial. So she may have missed Mr. Knickerbocker's testimony. I'm not real sure. But... And I'm giving her... I'm being fair with her on that. But if you read the transcript, you will find that Mr. Knickerbocker liked kids, he was a God parent. He had many relatives. He liked kids, but there are a lot of people who like kids, but they don't want them in their house. -You see what I'm saying? -What he testified... Yeah, exactly. What he testified... Let me just ask you this, Diane, are you saying that he liked kids and wanted kids, and liked your kids, and wanted to to be with you and your kids? I can only tell you what he testified to, Oprah. And he testified that he just simply did not want to parent children himself, give birth... Be a father to a child that is... That brings with it a lifelong responsibility is the way he put it. He did not want to become a biological father. -Well, according to, um... -[Diane] Ann. [laughs] ...police testimony in Ann's book when he was first questioned by the police with his wife, who knew about this affair that he was... -Oh, yes. With his wife. -Yeah, with his wife. He said then that he was afraid because he believed that you had shot your children because of him. Yeah. -And so... -I don't know what to say to that. I mean, jeez. That's his problem and not mine. I mean, that's his paranoia and his fear. You know, give me a break. I'm not the one that said that. Okay, we'll be right back. [audience applauding] A lot of people don't realize there's another facet of the story is that you seem to be fascinated with getting pregnant. Is that true? Oh, jeez, Ann. I think you're in permanent heat. -I'm serious. Ann says those things. -[audience laughing] I do not say those things. I am sorry, Oprah, that she put you through this. She did the same thing in another show in Chicago. She should've... Oh. -I'm sorry, I'm sorry. -She says that you are... She says that... Ann, you say that she becomes fulfilled, -literally, by getting pregnant. -That is what I believe. -Diane, obviously doesn't agree with me. -Thank you, Ann. Thank you. That's what you believe, Ann. That's not what I believe. This whole book is full of what you believe, not what I believe. It's a true story of Ann Rule. Okay, but what about this whole, your fascination with being a surrogate mother? Why did you choose to be a surrogate mother? -You have surrogated a child for somebody. -Yes. And tried several other times to be impregnated. -Yes. -Okay. Explain that. -Oprah, I've been pregnant five times. -Mm-hmm. And I'm going to include the surrogate thing in this. So don't try and rush me back because you asked two questions, and I'd like to address both of them. I've been pregnant five times. With my very first child, Christie was a baby that liked to stretch out. She separated my ribs. Every time I get pregnant it is an excruciating experience that no... Nobody would normally wanna go through that kind of thing, knowing that it's gonna be as painful as it is for at least the last five months. I love children. The reason that I became a surrogate was because there I saw a program in which a woman was told over and over and over by doctors that she could not have children. And I knew what it was like to be told that you can't have a child, which is why Daniel was conceived. My husband kept saying you can't have a baby, and I did it anyway. And this was my way of helping somebody else have a child that they really, really wanted and wanted to love. You were pregnant at trial. Why did you get pregnant again? Another real bad time in my life. -At that time, um... -[audience laughs] -Real bad time in my life. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. It's... I don't know that I could explain it all in two minutes here, but I was extremely lonely. I missed my kids desperately. I had just seen Christie on the second of October, and it's like opening a wound and pouring salt. And I was extremely lonely, beyond belief and beyond explanation. And on October 13th, I just went and got pregnant because I was so lonely. I love my children. I miss my children. --[audience laughing] -And I know that sounds simplistic. It really does, and I have to admit that. And that's why I say there's so much more feeling inside -that I can give in two minutes. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. So you say that on October 2nd you saw Christie. You saw Christie against court order. -Yes. -What'd you say to her that day? I love you. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. -I asked her, well, all the mother things. I had given her a lot of clothes, and Daniel a lot of clothes, school clothes at the beginning of September. And I kept asking Susan Staffel at Children's Services if the clothes fit, if the shoes fit, and different things, if she liked the outfits. And Susan always said, "Well, I haven't asked her. I'm not real sure." And so when I saw Christie in October, I asked her, "Did the shoes fit?" They're these little brown suede shoes. Anyway. I asked her if they fit and she said, "No. Dad gave me those." And I said, "What?" And she says, "Susan said that Dad gave me those shoes." And I said, "No, Christie, I gave them." She says, "No. Susan said Dad did." And luckily, Dad was standing right there. My ex-husband was right there. And he goes, "No, Christie, I've never given you anything. It came from your mom." And... Well, I'm sorry. I have to be honest. I'm not going to sit here and lie about it, but... [audience laughing] But, um, and I'm... I apologize, Steve, for saying that if you're listening to this show. But the fact is, Christie was very upset and she asked, "Why did they lie to me?" And so those are the things that we talked about. You know... What I wanna talk about, and I think you need to address this, Diane, because, as I said, there are lots of people who are hearing this story for the first time. Seeing you for the first time. You are a woman who is serving life plus 65 years for shooting your children, uh, in the back, in the chest. One of your children is now dead. Yeah. And you tell this story like you're talking about going to the state fair. -And so, you need to... -[audience applauding] When we come back, I'm gonna give you a chance to explain that. When we come back. Back in a moment. [audience applauding] So what I was addressing is we're talking to Diane Downs, accused of, uh, shooting her three children, killing one of them. Um, the theory is that she shot them in order to make life easier for her and her, uh, lover, You say that is not true. No, that's not true. You did not shoot your children? -I did not shoot my children. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. I did not cause anybody to shoot my children. I had no way of knowing that that was gonna happen that night. [Oprah] Mm-hmm. I asked before we went to the break why you have this manner. I mean, you seem to be very... You have a very effervescent personality, and so forth. But we're talking about something... I can't imagine anything more disturbing than than this subject to you. Can you explain that whole attitude that you have? My attitude. I have a personality which I was... A lot of people are... You know, you're born with personality, okay? And it develops as you go along. I have a personality that was developed over 27, 28 years. -And you can't just shake that off. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. Yes, there are some very horrible things that happened in my life. Because of that, I closed up. I became less bubbly, less outgoing, less friendly, less... -All those things. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. And I was therefore dubbed by the media as the Lady of Steel. Because I seem to have no emotion whatsoever. I was just simply hard, cold and I was... I behaved appropriately. I smiled at the right times. I said the right things, etcetera, etcetera. The fact is, it has been over five and a half years. I have become somewhat hardened to what has happened. I was the traumatized for a period of three years, which I did not realize was happening to me until in the aftermath, you look back on it. And I've had counseling, and I've been able to understand what has happened. My point, though, is that would it have really mattered, Oprah... And this was my feeling at the time, which is why I hid my feelings inside my grief, my pain inside. If I had been caught by the camera crying in public, they'd go, "Oh, she's crying because she feels really guilty about what she's done." And if I smile, they go, "Whoa, she's really hard and cold." She doesn't care what she's done. It didn't really matter what I said or what I did, I would have been perceived the way they wanted to perceive me. And then there would have been the other half of the people that if I cried, they would have gone, [winces] "Oh, that poor mother." And then there have been the ones that when I smile, would have said, "Boy, she's strong." You know, no matter what I said or did, people are going to perceive me the way they want to. So, is this or was this at the time of the shooting? 'Cause I want to refer back to the night of the shootings. I mean, all the people who saw you in emergency that night. -Oh. -People who saw you in emergency that night. The detectives who interviewed you, the police who were on the scene all thought that you had, ah, to say the least -an inappropriate response... -Inappropriate. ...uh, for a mother whose children had just been shot. -Was this a facade for you? Were you... -No. -Oh, absolutely not. -Were you pained inside, and just not able to express it, or what was going on? There were a lot of different things involved. First of all, you have to understand that the detective again, we're talking about testimony. But the detectives, and the doctors, and the nurses all testified that they have never seen such a thing before. They'd never seen children shot before. None of them. So they didn't know how people are supposed to react to that. They've never even... They'd never seen it. Um, so they were judging me of what they thought. Listen... They would assume, Diane, that a mother whose children were shot might have a tear in her eye. -Just one or two, I mean... -Oh, I had tears. I had tears, Oprah. They photographed me with a tear-stained face. -I had tears. -[audience] Oh. I was crying. Oh, oh, and I can hear in the background moaning. -Are you in pain? -[audience laughing] We'll be back. We'll be back. We'll be back. Back in a moment. [audience applauding] Danny is paralyzed from the waist down, is he not? -No, he's not. -He's not. Where is he paralyzed from? He was at one time, paralyzed from the waist down. And all through the medical reports, you will find that he has feeling in his legs. He has voluntary movement of his legs. He is not... He is not paralyzed in the way that you would consider paralyzed. He uses a walker. He's up on his feet, and he gets around that way. He has not the normal use of his legs. But he is not by rights, paralyzed as we would consider paralyzed. [Oprah] Okay. Thanks for correcting me on that. -[Diane] No. -[Oprah] Do you want... Really. Seriously, thank you. I envisioned him as not being able to move -from the waist down. -[Diane] No, it's not that way at all. But it's still pretty horrendous. -It is very. Extremely. -How old is he now? He will be nine in December. Mm-hmm. And Christie is how old? She will be 14 in about a week and a half. Two weeks. Have you had any communication with them at all? No, I write to them, and I send them things. But I never receive word as to whether they get them or not. About three years ago, I was told by the Children's Services Division that I was forbidden to communicate with them, and they were forbidden to communicate with me. So I assumed at that time that the things that I sent them didn't get through. When you escaped in July, where were you going? -California. -Mm-hmm. Why? I was going to find the man. This is kind of another long story. I'm going to try to squeeze it into a minute and a half. -Okay. -Um, the man that... There was a suspect that the police knew about who fit the description, had a history of assaulting women and children, had been arrested in all these different things. I ended up picking him out of a photo lineup. I did not know that until the very last day of court. They didn't tell me that this was him. Um, he was also headed to the area of Marcola and has never showed up. Supposedly, he has just disappeared from the face of the earth. Never been seen again which is very suspicious. You were going to get him? I was going to find him because somebody found him, and gave police an address. They told him where he was, and the police said they weren't interested. -And I was. -So you escape from prison to go find the man who committed these shootings you say? Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. But you ended up at the home of an inmate's husband. Yes. [audience laughing] Yes, and were found. -Um... -Ten days later. -Ten days later. -Ten days later in that house. Okay, so this isn't... Why? [laughs] Why? Yeah. You know, Diane, it doesn't sound like, -it just doesn't sound like... -That I was really trying. Well, you stated at the beginning... Or somebody stated at the beginning of the show that there was a 14-state manhunt, woman hunt, whatever. And there was. I did not realize that there was gonna be that much of it to do about it. -Another woman had escaped from prison. -Okay, let me just say this. Let me say this. Let me say this to you. In addition to being accused of shooting your three children, it doesn't sound like, from everything that we've read and heard, um, that you're a very nice person. Because in addition to that, you were always sleeping with everybody else's husband. Always preferred married men. And even while you were in prison, you befriend an inmate. She tells you about her husband who lives six blocks down the road. You escaped from prison, and you go move in with the inmate's husband. -[audience laughing] -She'd... [laughs] -That does not sound like a nice girl. -That sounds good. That sounds good. But the fact is she and her husband had not seen each other in five years. -[audience exclaiming] -They hadn't slept together in five and a half years. -And he was divorcing her. -Okay, okay, I just want you to explain that. -That's okay. -'Cause it doesn't sound like... You look like the girl next door, But the girl next door looks like she's turned bad. Quite frankly, and the girl next door is doing a lot of the same things I did. Okay, we'll be right back. [audience applauding] Ann Rule wrote a book about Diane Downs' case. It's called Small Sacrifices. You've said that Diane is not crazy. Um, although anybody watching, I guess, would believe that anybody who is capable of shooting their three children as Diane is accused of doing, something is wrong. You say what, Ann, to that? First thing people say to me is, "Of course she had to be crazy." And Diane is eminently saying she's very bright. She suffers and is diagnosed with three personality disorders. Basically, she's antisocial, meaning, no conscience, no remorse. Uh, so you can do what you want, and you never worry about it afterwards. Secondly, she's histrionic, which I think she's demonstrated this morning, meaning, she loves to be onstage. And third... -[audience applauding] -Excuse me. Can I say something to that? Can I say something? Which is great if you're doing a TV show, I must say. -[audience laughing] -Thank you. She's... The narcissistic personality disorder, means the narcissist feels entitled to whatever he or she wants, and it doesn't matter who gets hurt. [Oprah] But all of that doesn't mean... There are a lot of narcissistic people out there. [Ann] There are a lot of antisocial people running for office. Antisocial people, uh, who don't pick up a gun and shoot the kids, or shoot their neighbor. There are degrees. All of us know sociopaths or antisocial personalities, there are degrees just as there would be in learning disability, in intelligence in anything else. Why do you think she did it if you think she did it? I think Diane believed then that children could be replaced. And when she bought a Bronze Unicorn, and had the children's name engraved on the base, and the date, May 13th when I think she planned to do it. When she took them to the ocean, and lost her nerve and it took six days, I think it would literally, she could put the children on the shelf. She could have Lew, or Nick is his real name, and later on, since she's so fertile, she could have more children. [Oprah] Mm-hmm. Uh, most of us cannot even fathom that. Those of us who are mothers can't fathom any of it. [Diane] I can't either, Ann. Well, obviously not, Diane. -[Oprah] You want your kids back, Diane? -Absolutely. [Oprah] You think you'll ever see your kids again? -I know that I will. -[Oprah] Mm-hmm. Okay. We'll speak to you when we come back. Back in a moment. [audience applauding] I want to say a very special, special thanks to the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility where Diane is conducting this interview via satellite with us. For arranging all of this. 'Cause at one point Saturday, it wasn't even gonna happen. And, Mrs. Christie, you are a dream. I thank you very much. Uh, Ann's book again it's called Small Sacrifices, which tells Diane Downs' story, uh, who was accused of shooting her three children, killing one of them. Diane, you haven't addressed what it feels like... You say you're innocent. You didn't kill your children. ...to be accused of this horrendous crime that you didn't commit? And serving a life plus 65 years? Uh, it's a lot of feelings. It's very painful. It's frustrating. It's mostly painful, I guess, mostly knowing that my children are living in an environment and in a world of confusion and pain, and not knowing what is going on. Christie admitted in court that she, for a long time, wondered and wondered and wondered herself. Where the children now, Ann? they have been a job. They have been adopted by Fred Hugi, the prosecutor who was successful in convicting Diane Downs. -Diane... -They're doing great. And they're doing great. [audience applauding] Diane, we thank you for joining us. -Thank you. -Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Ann. Thank you all for watching today. -Thank you very much. -[audience applauding]
