Top corruption-busting lawyers in the fight of their lives….

[Music] two top noers who have cracked open the corruption Mafia at for ha University are now fighting for their own Survival after their own shock arrests we speak to labor lawyer Bradley Conrad and forensic lawyer Sarah burer welcome Bradley and welcome Sarah thank you thank you thank you for having us on your show you're welcome Bradley Bradley when did you first get involved with u ufh that would have been in 2018 when Professor Saka bashung contacted by uh my former partner Alton cheel desperately looking for assistance he wasn't too long in the job at the time but he faced an uphill battle and had no friends no allies and I think did not know what to do in order to address the problems at the University um finally we were all able to arrange a meeting uh in attendance was myself my then forensic partner the vice Chancellor and certain individuals from the University that accompanied him um it became apparent to US during that meeting that the actual problem at the University was that the vice Chancellor could never have an impact because he didn't have a grip on what was happening at the University it became very obvious that everyone that he dealt with was potentially involved with some kind of corrupt scheme they hadd been together for a long time and uh they were obviously working against him we put a plan in place as to how we could help him to address the situation at the University so we go back right to the beginning to 2018 with the vice Chancellor so what was the vice Chancellor's involvement in the cases right from day one the vice Chancellor was fully involved you must remember in 2018 he had no allies at all small group of people some of them fell by the wayside also due to corruption but he was aware and sat in all of the meetings initially relating to uh any investigations that had to take place and and potential people that had to be investigated most of whom were identified by ourselves through the work that we were doing there so Bradley what changed after the introduction of Isaac PES well I think Isaac pus at least we met him in 2020 and to be fair to him it was the first time that we had someone from the University with energy uh and that was able to get things long one of the most frustrating things was to get information from any Department because they were all captured you'd be promised information you'd never ever get it uh so we struggled to get critical information for investigations and for cases when Isaac PES came in he's got a a very proactive approach he's a he's a go- get has got a quite a demanding personality and he had the authority of the vice Chancellor he would simply jump on the phone in the meeting and he'd phone up whatever it was that was not giving the information and he would say I want the information now and that would include phoning up Executives and they would jump in order to provide us with that information that that that was a positive introduction by Isaac PES what also happened was that the direct access which we had to the vice Chancellor was taken away uh we were told that we were only to report to to Isaac blis um and there was no need unless we were given permission to do so to report directly to the vice Chancellor however that that does not mean that the vice Chancellor disappeared we had weekly meetings I would say with the vice Chancellor where you'd be briefed at a high level on what was happening at the University and these meetings often went on till 10 10:30 at night we would simply be summoned to update the vice Chancellor I would I would walk through the door greet my family at 7 7:30 and I'd have to go straight to my study and sar's had to do the same and it's not just Sarah and I there's a whole team of people there must have been about eight people in total that service the university uh but for the more important and strategic decisions that had to be taken people like SAR and myself would be called in to discuss the cases what have this what is this person done what is the next step are we going to discipline them are we going to seek to recover money from them uh are we reporting them to the authorities so the vice Chancellor was fully emerged in aspects of the work that we were doing Sarah what did your investigations reveal well um as you could probably imagine there's a number of uh corrupt cases that we unroot uprooted over there um it is a version of a A Min State capture um we uprooted syndicates Nigerian syndicates student syndicates local business syndicates uh and and people that were were severely in the connected as well those syndicates were operating with deep deep bre in the institution um what I can give you is a couple of examples of what we were dealing with at the time uh one was a head of student governance uh you I happen to be a witness in in arbitration so I am able to mention the name s langa and what we discovered with them was rampant cover quoting uh that had taken place at the University uh from what I found and that was for a limited period to the value of about 24 million Rand a criminal complaint was lodged uh against him as well another is an example of an administrator very very low position also in student governance a lady that was sitting at her desk all day long drafting quotations and competing quotations for family and friends businesses and submitting them uh to the university to be paid and from what I could uncover again in a limited space of time was that she had disc scourged about 14 million Rand from the University um and again a criminal complaint has been laid against her as well uh there are various schemes another scem that we uncovered was that a lady that sat in the registrar's office would be selling degrees to students now when I say selling degrees I mean clearing their debt uh and zeroing it to a zero balance and releasing the degree to the student despite some of these students having debt in excess of 250,000 R uh which obviously poses huge problems for the university in terms of a deficit uh of student beings Bradley what was the role of your law firm bchc in all this so what we and initially was the with were the disciplinary hearings that had to take place I attended the first disciplinary yearing with the vice um and when we closed our case on the first day I remember it clearly the meeting was held at pwc's offices in eastand the advocate for the employee came over to us and conceded a defeat he said look I've spoken to my client I said this no way we can conquer that we walked out of that meeting and the vice Chancellor uh said to me this is the first time ever that anyone has been accountable the university and that is really what opened up the gates from there they continued to give us more and more work uh where they identified areas of con in fact we reached a stage where we were saying we don't want any more work I'm personally on the record even in my film as saying please do not take on any more work we cannot cope with it uh we do not want to be this deeply emerged and no sooner had I said that than two or three people would be sending through instructions and I think it's very important to mention given given the the the false information that is out there these instructions were coming from various people we worked for the legal department the Supply Chain management department the human resources department uh there's another department I'm sure s will remember the name I think it's the Communications Department institutional advancement we these people approached us directly and I can say that I have never met most of these people ever in my life I have no relationships with them if I saw them in the street I would not know who they are uh but they wanted us to do the work because we were delivering results our success rate must be somewhere in the region of about 98 99% so we reached the stage in in in disciplinary year in the last two year to two where the cases put together by Sarah and her team were so compelling that we knew how how how things would unfold already there would be a request for a postponement there would be a sick note for a month there'd be another reason for a postponement and on the day people would simply resign because they knew that they would be taken on and that they would be held to account so that was the role that bch was playing Sarah what was your involvement with law enforcement agencies during this well we were immersed in assisting uh various law enforcement agencies including the SIU the walks uh and including the task team who ultimately arrested US um uh one of Verizon FRS Expos reports that we Ed produced for the University involved various uh employees and it forms the basis of the Proclamation on which the SIU exercises its current Powers at the University uh subsequently uh when the SIU sought to extend that Proclamation uh about 10 months ago after uh Oscar Maan won part one on his interdict on a technical point that they weren't committed to uh investigate his Masters uh they came to Horizon forensics and requested that we draft an additional piece uh to go to the president to extend the proclamation so we've been integrally involved in that um we've cooperated with them and provided them uh evidence they visited our office on numerous occasions they have me on Whatsapp they've emailed me um as early as February this year two captains from the the Haws commercial crimes unit and a senior Advocate uh also from East London came to visit near Horizon forensics and spent three full days which even they said was not enough uh to come and discuss three high-profile cases with me one related to a lady the only lady that has been arrested in more than 20 criminal complaints that we lodged uh and that is a case from 2019 uh where they wanted me to be a witness and sign a statement uh the other two cases and this is really this is really where it hits home for Bradley and I in the current situation that we are in is that they wanted to discuss the alleged academic fall of Oscar Maan uh which we also investigated and produced an acad in 2021 for uh as well as his supervisor uh Professor Edwin igoma um who in addition to facilitating that alleged for is also accused of allegedly stealing 5 and a half million R from the University um so you know as we sat there I said to to uh the law enforcement officials that this is very very politically charged um I'm I'm prepared to assist you but I don't really want to be involved Beyond this and uh knowing that only one person has been arrested is rather remarkable in the current circumstances because Brady and I uh were arrested a month after that meeting uh for a case that was only opened in January this year now Bradley you said that you met Isaac PES for the first time during August 2020 but the allegation against you is that you paid a million Rand towards a house for him obviously given the criminal case I'm constrained in terms of what I can say but by no means do I want to avoid the question um had had had the police done their job there are simple procedures required whereby you investigate a case you approach suspects you question them you get their version you form a view if they answer you or if they don't answer you and then you decide whether or not you're going to arrest none of that has ever happened I've never been questioned till today I spent 14 days in prison still sounds so real that I've been to prison um and and I've never ever been asked what my version was but in the nutshell I did meet him in about August uh it's the exact date I don't know but it's at sometime in August September introduced by the Vice Chancellor and anyone that has met him and the vice Chancellor himself has conceded this uh in many newspaper articles that you're completely seduced by the man he has great ability to get things done he's a go-getter he's a networker he's a fixer and he has immense energy at that same time well towards the end of the year say early December uh I eared 51% of a r and forensics this was never a secret by the way everybody at the University knew that and was disclosed uh and I had a partner who was an in a forensic investigator which I was not he owned 49% of the business he suddenly Dropped a Bomb on Me at the end of a meeting and he said by the way I've been offered a job by a clients of ours that we have uh in the aisle of man and we had discussions about when is this going to happen and he said well he wasn't too sure it's going to take some time to cut it short 3 or 4 days later everything was finalized and he was back household call gone everything and uh I said to him this leaves me in a company which was already established in 2013 with an international Foot people think we only worked for 4 um you you you leaving me in a position now they are employees but I do not not I understand forensic work but I need an operational person I'm practicing at bch here and uh we agreed that a list of people would be put together that would meet the right criteria uh and and the police spoken to me they had also know because there's evidence for everything that I'm saying and there are witnesses that a short list was prepared and S knows that on that list one of the people for consideration was is and I offered him that opportunity uh his response to me was that he was humbled by it and and and and what I've got a stress he had just joined the university and the and the documents will show this he was on a fix term contract from month to month which I think was coming to an end the end of December and it was extended till the end of January which is exactly the period when my partner was exiting his formal exit date would have been the end of Feb uh uh 2021 to coincide with the financial year and and all of his other plans um the offer was the 49% as well as the salary which my partner had earned um I went away over the holidays I thought about it I spoke to various people uh and ultimately for reasons I won't go into now I decided I wasn't going to go through with the deal so I naged on a deal which I had entered into uh in good faith and we we reached an agreement as to how we would resolve that which was on a financial basis and as I said there are documents that exist that support that entire period of time uh but we've never ever been asked for reversion on it rather we've been been very very unfairly and maliciously uh B if if you listen to what s has had to say we uncovered and broke the mafia at 4 which have been operating since 20110 2011 with impunity uh now now the story out there is that the mafia which includes us I'm I'm I'm I'm a mafia member now as well as s is what has now been discovered with the arrest of the swifted people well there may be Merit in some cases we don't know 85% of the people that are are co- accused uh uh at the moment we have never met before in our lives so it it is shocking when you have to sit in court next to people you accused of being corrupt with and having a scheme in place but you don't know them obviously we know uh uh Paul CL uh who actually came in just before Isaac uh to assist the the vice Chancellor uh he subsequently almost stepped aside because he couldn't take the pressure of it and we alleged that people wanted to kill him um and and then Isaac was brought in we know him but for the rest of the people I I didn't know them I knew some of them by name those this is even employees that work there but yet for some reason uh our names got added to the bottom of that list and we got arrested in uh I think it's um news 24 described in a Hollywood style fashion I mean it is unbelievable what we went through uh uh during that process and uh yeah I can talk about more of that in a minute Sarah over to you what has your arrest been for you I it's quite Indescribable and I don't think words can actually it down but it's been a tremendously uh stressful anxious period in my life but not just my life I have to consider that my immediate family and my friends who look to me as well um they're in pain alongside myself and uh and it's it's more painful for me because I am uh the only person in my family my immediate family to have gone out and got a degree and worked hard to get it and and uh being a demanding profession so it's it's shaped my very existence it's shaken my Foundation as an attorney as a forensic investigator um yeah I I just I've I've obviously got feelings inside of me that I can't even describe because I wake up in the morning shaking most days because I realize I'm a person art un Bale I'm an attorney and a person art unveil and that reality frightens me you know it affects every Beauty in my life it's been tainted with it um as Bradley says 85% of those people in the in the courtroom I stand around and I look and I also don't even want to make eye contact these people because up to the day of our our arrest um I was working for the University so when we say we've been working with them since 2018 I've been working with the university long before likees sured and 6 months after so we were being instructed directly by the Vice Chancellor and his executive um so yeah it is it is a enormous shock for me uh what saddens me about the current circum circumstances that we are in is that I've been in the process humiliated and discredited the cases that I mean to be a witness in um I don't know what will happen to that when people look at me as an accused used an a for and Corruption case um and then then the anger that I feel on a daily basis and and the real deep deep sadness is that I know uh that there are senior officials at the University that have relied on the Integrity of Horizon's work uh there are senior officials in law enforcement that's still believe in us and still uh have relied on the work that we've produced uh which are neatly packaged cases ready to fly ready to go they're trial ready um but yet on the one hand you've got senior officials that know that some of the facts that are coming out in the media are un true and they're not standing up they're sending messages of condolences which is not enough enough for me stand up and correct the facts correct the facts um we are here to help and that's what we have always done we've been taking calls late nights weekends uh evenings we've sacrificed personal time with our family um on numerous occasions I had to kill the bride that I was busy with on a Saturday night book of FL on Sunday morning to be there on Monday morning to go and assist with a new investigation whatever the case may be to be available for meetings at the highest levels and those officials know it and they just sit back in their Comforts of their homes and say thank goodness it's not me so it's it's a tremendous struggle on a daily basis for me personally the last four years of my life have been dedicated to the university they're not Horizon only CLI we do a variety of other matters and uh but they were a very big part of my life that I invested a lot of energy into Bradley what has your rest meant for you chattin it's shattered my entire world and and I don't want to Define my world as just been my work I come from a workingclass family poor family today I'm a household name when it comes to labor law whether it be amongst University students or top judges in the country I'm a contributing academic or contributor to the leading academic text books in this country I've argued of the biggest cases in this country writing to the Constitution I built all of that from absolutely nothing um and to sit and watch our people simply destroy that that is heartbreaking when I first took on this work my colleagues friends and most importantly family said to me you don't want to go and do work in the Eastern Cape you're crazy you do not want to go to Fort here but we are lawyers we had a client that client needed help and we went and we offered that service and we've explained to you how we got sucked in to the cleanup which we have we pretty much succeeded in doing but it's all been undone and and all wi design um we literally gave up our lives for the University of 4te and when all these killings started not a single person to us and asked us are you safe is anyone looking after you I mean what s didn't mention to you is that the SIU uh the NPA and there was another another organization uh warned us that our lives are in danger and it was in danger uh we narrowly escaped being assassinated two years ago in his London um and we were completely hyped up that day it was the first time that we had returned since the killing of I think it was Mr Boots because we refused to go there because no one at the University despite what they may say knows anything about any of the cases the details we sit with which we have shared with the SIU and and the walks and and the NBAA but the details sit in our head so we refused to go to to the Eastern C other members of our team still agreed to travel to do work but they weren't the work that they did wasn't the same as the work that Sarah and I did so we were then asked to please attend a two-day workshop with the SIU at their headquarters in East London and we agreed and on our way there uh we were approached by four men but narly escaped they drew a pistol uh but we were so alert from the time that we reached the airport that we agreed that s would look one on the left and I would look on the right because uh the reality of being assassinated it was there and because we were alert we managed to get away and uh I never told my family about this because they would never have let me out of the house ever again and I wouldn't be able to commit to the work that I started um my family has taken immense Trin but they've been very very supportive in the circumstances of our imprisonment the fact that in this Con so-called constitutional democracy I waited 14 days before I was granted bail 14 days arrested before the Easter weekend I mean it it it just smacks of absolute cruelty and it was designed to be cruel it was designed to hurt us to arrest us on a Thursday before an important long weekend uh I should have been out on the Saturday already in the ordinary course but for 14 days I was in a prison in a Cell uh my the person opposite me was in jail for murdering three people so you know I survived it which hopefully has made Made Me Stronger but I'm still traumatized by it uh my family had no idea what was happening we've got brilliant lawyers they kept them up to date but you have no contact with them they don't know what is going to happen what is going to happen next um my my my my uh family at home we had a front or kicked in without a warrant without a warrant uh and when my wife was was taken by surprise asked for the warrant she was just shoved aside and shown an identity badge uh the warrant was produced 40 minutes later this is in a country where we fought so hard for a constitution the Bill of Rights that these type of things would never ever happen she was rest not restrained she was restricted from moving around in her own house until the warrant arrived 40 minutes later I don't I don't think you need to explain to anyone that that is unlawful But the saddest part is that my children were in the house and I asked and pleaded at least six times that they be allowed to leave without this whole spectacle taking place eventually we managed to convince them to let my children slip out so that they didn't have to witness what was taken so emotionally it has hit me very very hard um luckily they we have great support mean obviously I'm I'm receiving therapy medication uh just to keep me going we've got colleagues in the profession senior Council Advocates came to visit me uh phoned me emailed me attorneys and just good friends and almost all of them said we don't even want to hear your version because we know you as a person in 25 years you've never ever put one uh foot out of line you've only contributed so that support from from professionally and personally it really really helps but it's not easy I mean as Sarah's correctly said I don't sleep at night other than you know take medication to try and help me sleep but I wake up in the morning and this is on my mind I go to bed this is on my mind and we have to take various steps every single day to try and deal with this issue so you re you relive the trauma each and each and every day um but having said all of that if I had to do it was asked to do it all again I would do it all again because that is what we do as attorneys and I don't think as South Africans we contribute enough we all just walk away and we now have a nice bride today and we talk about the arrest of Conrad and burger and oh disgusting they must be corrupt Etc but we're not holding the true people to account the day we signed off on on the report from Mr uh maani was a very important day in our lives and after it was finalized I said to S please put my name on it and take your name off because I am the owner of the business not that she wanted to take her name off she was prepared to own what she had done but I said it's only right and then I said to a secondly please I need you to understand this we have a choice right now to make we can either press send and send this off and let hopefully uh uh it gets investigated and it gets dealt with or we can throw it in the bin but if we choose the first option and we send it off this is what I want you to understand life as you know it now will probably never ever be the same and I think those words were almost prophetic um and uh we both agreed within seconds that we have an obligation as lawyers to uphold the truth and to respect uh uh uh the oath which we have taken and we sent it off and what has happened to us now is only a fraction of what has happened because we've been abused for years and the two of us have been abused directly abused insulted humiliated but we continued we never thought that it would reach the stage where what happened to us would be the ultimate Way of of our as we see it of dealing with us and and just finally in I've been around I was around in the 80s uh I was at University studying law when the interim Constitution came out we dreamt about and we worked towards uh a system of justice where this the way in which we were arrested would never ever take place with people who would have rights uh were your dignity would be respected where Fair process would be followed and Liberty would be the most important thing and all for good reason given the history of our country I discovered and I'm sure sah will agree uh the government has failed us as far as socioeconomic rights are concerned we don't even have to debate that those guaranteed rights that people have the basic rights but I never knew because I've never been in criminal law in the or in the criminal space that there are no rights for people that are or or find themselves on the other side of the law those rights are absolutely abused so in my view the Bill of Rights only exists on paper and that for me is the saddest thing and that means that the entire Constitution is undermined and that's a threat to everyone in this country and and that deeply deeply saddens me that we find ourselves in that position thank you that was Bradley Conrad and Sarah Burger the top lawyers who spent years uncovering corruption at Fort ha university only to be targeted with shock arrests thank you Bradley and thank you Sarah I'm Chris stain [Music]

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Views: 34,387

Keywords: Rational Perspective, Business, Money

Id: loUXD6hNgTo

Length: 35min 58sec (2158 seconds)

Published: Mon May 13 2024