The World According to Andrew Klavan

welcome to uncommon knowledge I'm Peter Robinson Andrew Klavan my guest today was born in New York City grew up on Long Island and graduated from the University of California at Berkeley Andrew is the author of many novels including true crime which was made into a movie starring Clint Eastwood extremely cool and don't say a word which was made into a movie with Michael Douglas also very cool Andrew clavin's most recent novel Empire of Lies drew Clavin thank you very much for joining me my pleasure Empire of Lies from the dust jacket copy which is pretty good copped about who wrote that did you write you did okay you always wind up rewriting there all right sustained by a deep religious faith Jason Harrow your hero has built a stable family and become a pillar of principle and patriotism in the Midwest then the phone rings this is gorgeous then the phone rings and his past is on the other end of the line returning to New York City Jason finds himself entangled in a murderous conspiracy only he can see and only he can stop now and Firefly's has been getting a lot of attention because you take what in some ways is a straightforward gritty crime novel and make your hero explicitly Christian people leaving Christian a Christian who talks about a first person novel and he talks about his faith if your hero had been completely secular the plot would have had as many twists the climactic scene would have been just as gripping why did you make him religious well it was the question that the not the questions that the novel put forward and the story the whole thing about building a story like this is what character do you put in the story to make it come to life if you if you put a fellow in Hamlet the play is over in two minutes right if you put Hamlet and fellow the play never ends you have to find the right character for the story this story raises certain questions about faith the nature of faith and the nature of faith as it underlies civilization and those are the questions that Jason Harrow has to come to terms with as he deals with questions of reality this is a man who had a very difficult past very degraded past and who feels that he was changed and made new by God and the question one of the questions that the novel asks is how legitimate is that salvation hug durable is that salvation and how will it stand up against the questions of reality what is reality Who am I and what is reality and so it seemed important to me that that that would bring out the depths of the story okay if if one thinks of Christian novels one thinks of The Chronicles of Narnia or the Left Behind books these are books that could be made into movies by Walden Media right family entertainment Empire of Lies has pretty rough language frank discussion of sex and from the moment Jason Harrow the hero leaves the Midwest which is a kind of Eden for him and is drawn back into his former haunts in New York City the atmosphere is pervasively dark and threatening and I guess from the audience's point of view or from the point of view you what you're really mixing genres are you doing that to have fun or is the way you work you start with a character and see what see what happens I I don't consider it mixing genres I do something with the genre that I don't I've never seen anybody else do it's my own specific trademark in my own specific brand of thriller but I don't consider the genre to be limited in in the usual way it is limited by its necessity to thrill it should thrill it should carry you along it should you move like a bullet but the thriller genre is really perfectly set up to deal with certain important ideas that are at the center of the Western idea of the individual what is reality and Who am I and how do I know those are questions that can be asked in a thriller with great great deal of suspense and entertainment and so I don't consider that mixing genres the thing that does come across to people as a little shocking and throws them back on their heels is that combination that you mentioned before of a Christian man having the kinds of thoughts that he has and having the kind of past that he has and that grows up out of my own experience of atheism and as a much younger man and reading atheist books and coming upon the works of the Marquis de Sade and as I was reading the works of the marking decided he was a philosopher a pornographic philosopher but a philosopher nonetheless and I was struck I remember by the fact that that was the only honest atheist philosophy I've ever read it was the only philosophy that hung completely together and that was for me the wall it was at that moment when I saw where I thought atheism naturally led started to recoil from it and so in Jason harro's trip from atheism to faith I take him through that rather degraded and frightening territory and it would have been dishonest to leave it out and it would have been dishonest to think that upon finding faith it was all washed away and his mind became squeaky clean I have one up I want to get to your political view want to get to a lot of topics but one more specific to the novel which is that as I said this the Eden the Adil ik first chat opening is said in a suburbia in the Midwest he's drawn back into New York City which is gritty and dark and oppressive and threatening and drawn up in a it discovers a conspiracy which involves Islamic radicalism and it turns out that the well since we're talking about genres I suppose I can use the term the mastermind of the conspiracy is in a major university yes and so this strikes me as a little odd you're a Berkeley man your father-in-law Thomas Flanagan a very fine and famous and accomplished novelist was it a taught in the English department at Cal Berkeley for a number of there's every reason for you to feel perfectly at home in the setting of an elite unit city and yet when an elite University shows up in this novel it is it is a well wicked there's lots of bad stuff it's a nexus of bad stuff yeah does that strike he was unrealistic I don't know I have to say that is my it is really observation and especially the kinds of universities that I'm dealing with what what Harrow sees in the university is he sees the core of a kind of soft terrorism a terrorism of ideas a way of dismantling the things that we have built in our tradition from the bottom in a soft way in a kind of reasonable way in a way of misusing reason to destroy reason and he has this kind of nightmarish experience where the to the kind of violent terrorism and this soft quiet terrorism clashing together in his mind and he has a vision almost of what this is doing to this society this country that he loves I want to get to the political Andrew Clavin you wrote last year in City Journal in an article entitled the big white lie I think it was yeah white lies quote leftism leftism has outlived its own failure by hiding itself within the most labyrinthine construct of social delicacy since Victoria was Queen close quote explain that it seems to me that in the period that we will loosely say he goes from the the Summer of Love to the fall of the Berlin Wall an argument was put forward that Western civilization was in error Western Civ had to go that we were wrong on every count on our judeo-christian tradition on our tradition of personal liberty capitalism certainly was wrong it seems to me that argument has failed spectacularly in every way in every aspect and so now when you're when you're dealing with an argument you're holding on to a philosophy that has failed what have you got left all you have left is insult and ridicule and a sort of putting territory borders around what can be said they call it political correctness but that doesn't quite cover it doesn't whenever those running intimidation it's correct it is it is it's bullying and intimidation and it works through politeness it doesn't work really through people burning books or shouting or throwing bricks through your window it works by making you a pariah by expressing when you express your belief so people say you're a racist you're a sexist that's disgusting that's this how could you say it's unacceptable and and they have built this up and what really frightens me and kind of annoys me is that the right has to some degree taking this on board and has started to speak in these kind of quite you know I don't want me to sound like a racist but you know and I think that that needs to be rejected I think we need to speak out in the plain understanding that we are not racist or sexist or were you a conservative when you were at Berkeley and what was it the early 70s no I was I was it's this is it's hard to explain to people who are not in the arts how completely leftism during this period of time was the atmosphere you breathe was the water you slamming I was always a disgruntled liberal I was always I always knew something was wrong and I can pick out things along the way that just drove me crazy I mean I remember affirmative action just thinking this is you know this is a dead end in terms of thought in terms of the ability to think but it never occurred to me that the air I was breathing what was wrong that it was so comprehensively wrong yes it was like being in the matrix remember the movie the matrix it was like a complete imitation of reality that you really had to start to poke your finger through and start to see outside that there was another reality that you could have so I was I was really would have called myself a liberal almost to the fall of the Berlin Wall the fall the roll all right so right through 1989 so you have been now out conservative for a decade or so yes right okay all right now you're on Andrew Klavan calm which is where I want to hold this book up at least once a segment words which is a good place to to read reviews of Empire of Lies your latest book you have posted a review of this book that was carried by The Associated Press and which is too wonderful not to quote out loud so listen to this through his hero Clavin tells us among other thing this review tells us among other things that the entire media is a left-wing conspiracy the taxes steal from the rich to give to the poor that America is in a holy war with Islam that the truth about darned near everything in the United States is obscured by a blizzard of politically correct lies and that anyone who disagrees with him is deluded close quote to which you Andrew Clavin have posted this reply quote yeah ok do you really mean that do you really mean oh yeah or do do you subscribe to everything they charge you of accuse you of subscribing to well first of all I mean as you know from reading the book the hero is not an entirely reliable narrator he's not a man who himself is wondering whether he's gone mad he who questions himself in every step of the way and to me the questioning is part of our Great Western tradition that I think we're in danger of losing that self-critical question so the idea that anybody who disagrees with the hero is somehow deluded or corrupt no of course I don't believe that at all but I do think he puts forward the hero puts forward a fairly legitimate and comprehensive view of the situation we're in and especially the situation which i think is very much under covered and under thought about that we are in an argument about spirituality we are in an argument a violent argument this war on terror is a violent argument about God and I think that that is that is the thing that he puts forward the hero puts forward that makes him a pariah and why pariah to the reviewers of The Associated Press yes and to the people in the book and he'll be vulnerable right now I want to move to spiritual questions in a moment but this book is called Empire of Lies your article in The City Journal of last year was entitled the big why you say this reviewer accuses you of claiming that darn near everything is obscured by a blizzard of politically correct lies lies lies lies the question is how do you explain this preference at least in elite culture in universities in the arts in the world where you've spent a lot of your time moving the preference for lies for unreality over reality well I think to begin with you have to go back to the idea that so many of the things that they put forward failed so many of the ideas that they could forward failed we saw a generation a single generation in which materialist communist atheist governments destroyed more lives than all religions put together ever in a single generation now when you're left with that you either have to look in the mirror and say oh I have missed the target rather badly here or you have to start paddling really hard and you have to create an illusionary world and a you know a world of illusion in which what you're saying makes some kind of sense and that's what I think political correctness is and that's why I think political correctness is so offensive if there's if there's one thing that is urgently important in a world where individuals are respected it's a respect also for authenticity that a man should be what he seems to be political correctness is almost it comes very close to legislating in authentic behavior it tells you what you must think and what you must say in order to be good and that is essentially telling people to lie because if we can't explore our thoughts if we can't speak our feelings without being completely ostracized how can we ever reach that place of authenticity so I I do believe I do believe that we have attached or at least the left and the media especially has attached a sort of virtue to being inauthentic through political correctness that I just think is deeply deeply offensive and destructive segment three faith some guys I'm quoting you said this in a recent interview some guys are born where they want to be Catholic Jewish Baptist whatever my life has been more like one of those Outward Bound programs where they drop you far from home and you have to make your way back with a piece of string in a matchbook close quote explain well I was born a Jew in a household of where we were raised in the Jewish faith but without faith we were essentially told this is nonsense but you must learn it it's part of the tradition when I was bar Mitzvahed I felt a terrible sense of shame a deep sense of shame that I was speaking words and speaking myself into a tradition that I knew I didn't accept that I knew I didn't believe me at the time where I grew up you were given a lot of jewelry at your Bar Mitzvah and I received what must have been thousands of dollars worth the gold bracelets and pens and money clips and oh and I put them all in a jewelry box that I would occasional I'd never have worn much jewelry and I would just take it out occasionally and admire it and about six months went by and this crushing sense of dishonesty and shame finally reached me and I waited one night until everyone went to sleep and I took this jewelry box downstairs in and stuffed it into the outward-bound garbage under I can remember to this day the feel of the washed out eggs and coffee grounds in my hands like buried it so nobody would see me through this jewelry way and that was for me to be the end of my relationship with God because I didn't want to be involved with anything that made me feel back in authentic that disarming and so that's a long journey to make to Christianity that's a place where you're sort of Christianity isn't even a light at the end of the tunnel now well so you're raised effectively it wasn't Judaism per se that you were rejecting it was the entire notion of God it was it was that's all I made I made the mistake which I see many many people make including atheists as famous as Richard Dawkins I called the Santa Claus mistake they discovered there's santa claus so they think there's no christmas and i had discovered that this rather rotten foundation for me of a belief system that you were supposed to subscribe to without believing in it and in my family obviously this is not I'm asking about Judaism in general I'm talking about the way it was taught to me and so I kind of thought I'm through with all of this maybe there's a god maybe there's not that's certainly not in any kind of religious way certainly not many as they say organized religion is over for me you wrote in the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago quote the presumption of atheism proceeds without respect for the human experience of God tell me what you mean by both terms the human experience of God and the presumption of atheism well this is for me central to the entire conversation let me tell you a dirty story you look like you're over 18 oh well I barely when I first moved with woman who was now my wife into a brownstone in Manhattan I was on a narrow street on the west side and you could see through all the windows of the apartment across the way and a young couple moved in put their bed next to the window and proceeded to make love with the curtains open throughout the day and I of course being able to do any writing it was hard to do anything you know and and I remember looking at this and I'm thinking this looks they were quite an attractive couple you look kind of ridiculous and it looked obscene would be the only thing I and I one day said to my then-girlfriend look at the things that they do and she said but we do all those things and of course I realized that sex and everything are given me by the internal experience which has no material nature it may arise out of our material and may arise out of our flesh but that internal experience of life that individual human experience of life which is immaterial ultimately is what sanctifies our lives all of our most important and actions without it everything turns into a kind of pornography not just sex almost everything just moving meat yes exactly meat puppets meat bone and I feel that the presumption of atheism which has become the presumption of our intellectual conversations most that is to say presuming that atheism is the accepted position it is the default position of our intelligence you all right and so anyone who disagree it is the burden of proof or the burden of conversation rests on the believer that's what you mean by the presumption yes all right and I think the in fact the exact opposite is true I think that the burden of proof that that this experience means nothing rests entirely with the atheists and and that that that experience is difficult to know difficult to define difficult to put borders on to limb all of that's true but that it's non-existent that it's unimportant that it is not part of what we're doing here and the urgent part I would say of what we're doing here that's got to be a mistake it has to be mr. will Gallup now through a couple thousand years of theology in a minute and a half but I just want to see what you do with Christopher Hitchens who's a highly accomplished writer very clever and frankly to me an irresistible man I just yes a lovely man mistaken on a few large points but Christopher's you sort have to contend with Christopher Hitchens writes quote of the exorbitant this is a criticism of Christianity specifically not belief but Christian belief the exorbitant fantasy of forgiveness where by one's own responsibilities can be flung onto a scapegoat and thereby taken away in my book Hitchens his book I argue that I can pay your debt or even take your place in prison but I cannot absolve you of what you actually did close quote the fantasy of forgiveness no I think he's got it wrong I think that I think that he's first of all he's starting from the wrong place he's thinking of evil deeds for which we can be forgiven but I think if you read Genesis carefully it really puts forward the notion that there is a sense of shame inherent in being a human being and that is that is what part of what the whole the 60s were about is we're no longer going to feel guilt we're just going to be free and we're going to love freely and of course it didn't work and why doesn't it work well because inherent in the knowledge of good and evil inherent in consciousness and self-consciousness is a weird sense of shame that we are also meat puppets that we are also these objects being moved about by nature it's not necessarily our evil deeds that we are asking to be forgiven for it's our humanity okay and but the forgiveness is not a fantasy you can take everything that you just said and the answer might be and and therefore we invent the notion of forgiveness so that we can live with ourselves of course you could you can always make that argument you can oh that that was one of these stations that breakthrough I on my road to faith it was that you can always make that argument yeah you can never know you can never know that that you're not going down that road that's why it's called faith instead of knowledge you actually in in the atmosphere of unknowing in the knowledge of unknowing you make the decision to believe you don't make this decision to believe because you saw a big finger come out of the sky and right now maybe you did I I never did you you make the decision to believe and then you see having made that decision whether your concept of reality becomes untenable and my experience has been exactly the opposite having made the decision to believe I feel that I understand reality far better I feel that my insights are closer to the bone all right segment four from the sublime to the ridiculous Hollywood two of your novels true crime and don't say a word have been turned into movies and you wrote a screenplay for a third movie a shock to the system which starred Michael Caine which is in the coolest of all he's my humble operations just unbelievably and yet you wrote of the motion picture industry this past summer that you are quote ashamed of the industry close quote go ahead and explain that well I'm it really has to do first of all I believe that people should believe what they believe and express what they have to express however we are in a specific situation which is that we're at war and we're at war with people who seriously want to destroy us and our soldiers our mothers sons are out in the field fighting a specific kind of war which is a war of counterinsurgency in that war and I I went to I actually went to Afghanistan was embedded for two weeks because of this because yes I've just finished the article already journal hasn't come out in a war of counterinsurgency one of the most important things they have to develop is goodwill with the natives the people who are not the terrorists you have to establish goodwill between our guys and through our guys the central government that we hope will come in and replace the outlaw government that we chased outright to make films which are beautifully done propaganda instruments for the enemy is an act of wickedness I don't think the people who do it or wicked I don't think they're evil I don't think they're saying oh boy we're gonna get our soldiers killed we're gonna make it harder for them I think that they're living in a narcissistic fantasy where they they are doing doing something heroic while our soldiers are fools being abused by video conservative madmen I think that that is I don't want to say it's unacceptable because I don't know I'm not a censor I don't want people to stop I think morally they're making a wrong choice and I think they should make another choice I want you to explain what they're doing a little bit further you in an article you wrote for the City Journal quite a long piece in which you reviewed a bunch of films that had come out in the last 18 months or so and you drew the comparison which all of us feel between Frank Capra a Sicilian immigrant who became a profound American patriot right and produced films which were critical of aspects of American society well it's a wonderful life there's another sharp edge toward capitalism annette but it's fundamentally embracing of american values you talk about Jimmy Stewart who signed up and flew missions during the Second World War these people are patriots all right and then you talk about Oliver Stone who served in Vietnam and had a horrifying experience and then produces platoon and the notion here is that Frank capper and Jimmy Stewart believed in America and along came the next generation the Vietnam experience was disillusioning I can understand all that because in those days there were reasons you could have a good long argument about whether we ought to have gotten into Vietnam you could still have a good long argument about Capitol eight now the arguments are over as you point out but be nobody in Los Angeles you know the town better than I do but nobody in Los Angeles feel sympathy toward the views of radical Islam right so what do they think they're doing well I mean I can understand the anti view I can understand the 60s and 70s or early 80s even but I can't understand the motivation now well one of the things that happened on 9/11 I mean with the upsurge of radicalism with its forcing itself upon our consciousness is multiculturalism the logic behind multiculturalism was destroyed it was obliterated this idea that all cultures are the same if we could only understand that all cultures are equally worthy we would stop fighting this song this jangling ditty that I despise that John Lennon's Imagine the idea that if we could just get rid of all the things that make us human we wouldn't have to fight well that's true but it's the philosophy of a cow I mean you sit and you have nothing to love nothing to bring out yourself or the best in yourself so now you've gone too far John Lennon so even though you say that they don't agree with radical Islam they refuse to see radical Islam what they see is the the usual blame America that it's our fault it's our nemesis it's the the payback for our Western sin and to be honest with you to be honest with you the the generation of the sixties the guys like Oliver Stone came by that idea he was being authentic on their own he was being authentic I disagreed with him then I disagree with him now but it was an authentic idea even though it was kind of stolen from a European notion these guys are frauds to me they are making movies that are about Vietnam they have not seen the reason the reason I went to Afghanistan is I thought I have to be able to say this authentically I have to be your story right I have to be able to say that our armed forces are no longer that force of draftees thrown into a war they didn't completely understand every single one of our soldiers signed up or resize up after 9/11 the term the longest term is six years so every single one signed up after 9/11 every single one knew where he was going what was going to happen to him it has an idea of why it's the right thing to do those guys do not appear in the movies and you know wouldn't bother me so much the movies that Hollywood make the Hollywood makes never bother me so much as the movies they don't make if there were eight films attacking our troops I would still despise them for making them during wartime but if there were eight films supporting our troops I know that those films were would went out with the audience and I know their arguments would be better and I know that a depiction of life would be more realistic those films don't be can I just say last question in this segment do you get the feeling that Hollywood today this notion that the arts are always on the avant-garde the cutting edge my feeling is that's nonsense at the present hour they're a lagging indicator you could parachute into Kansas anywhere in Kansas walk into the nearest diner and find people who have a much more acute grip of reality than you could by strolling up and down Wilshire Boulevard no question and so is it purely a question of time all these studio heads are in their 60s are going to retire soon let's look my view would be let's buy them places and sort of let the other words is there going to be just a kind of a health turn over or is there or is there a more a kind of an enduring ideological fight that has to be fought I'm very optimistic I think there is an enduring ideological fight that has to be fought I think the reason they're a lagging indicator a perfect phrase for them because they are straitjacketed by their ideology they are the most conformist group of people that were a group of people you can imagine but we conservatives have let them get away with this I've said this again and again but if you win the White House if you win the Congress if you win the Supreme Court and lose the culture you will lose the country it is the culture that you know Shelley was right the poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it will take a longer time but if you lose the culture if you let them drip this poison into the consciousness of America forever they will win and I think it really is going to require I'm very optimistic about it it is going to require an effort to take the culture back from these people who are as you say conformist backward living in the ideology of oak generations ago final segment politics and the culture I'm going to read to you something that you put in The Wall Street Journal earlier this summer and give you a chance to recant there seems to me no question wrote Andrew Clavin that the Batman film The Dark Knight is at some level a pan of praise to the fortitude and moral courage shown by george w bush in this time of terror and war close quote aw come on you know what are you gonna stick with that one what I love about what you just said is you it was a perfect imitation of the argument that is used to shut conservatives up repeatedly aw come on because because the arguments of the left have failed they have fallen back on ridicule and exclusion so that they don't say to you well george w bush was wrong this way this way in this way what they say was george w bush oh come on Dick Cheney me Dick Cheney has become a curse word you know on the left on the left and it when I wrote that piece which I thought was obvious by the way I thought I think you can't watch the Batman film without seeing what I saw it touched off such an incredible firestorm but I knew I was right I mean I would be good because what I had said was I don't accept them I don't accept that I'm excluded from the elite from the intelligentsia because I think George W Bush has done some things very very much that are that are right the point that the piece makes the most poignant connection between Batman in the movie and Bush is that they both sacrifice their popularity to do the right thing and what the left has is this kind of old look at his popularity polls look how low they are look how silly he is when he talks look at the mistakes he makes with his language it's that kind of ridicule that's supposed to be not argument its ridicule it's not argument and it's meant to keep you from even opening your mouth the way they talk about Rush Limbaugh is a perfect example right they don't say old Russia is wrong about this this and this they said rush limbaugh how could you go aw come on it's not come on so I will not work at now let me push I'll try it what I think maybe a more sophisticated argument than oh come on it's the role of the artist sanctified by several centuries at least of Western experience to stand it one removed from society to criticize to challenge you could even argue I'm not sure that I have the historical knowledge to take us back at this one but you could even argue that it traces all the way back to the Hebrew Scriptures where you have the prophetic voice challenging the king challenging the society challenging the priestly caste and you don't want artists to do that you want them right smack dab in the middle of society celebrating conventional values you're attempting to undermine the most important role the artists can play not in the least first of all when I hear that was pretty good I admired it it sounded sincere when I hear artists today talk about speaking truth to power I've always asked myself who is the power in this artists life is really George W Bush who has no concern with them whatsoever no power over them no power to stop them or is it the cultural facade the cultural infrastructure that gives them praise that gives them access to work that gives them awards that gives them respect and artists died for respect you know they live and die for respect it really is these people who have confined them to their straitjacket of ideology that they never challenge they never challenge that structure they challenge a structure that really is not affecting them because in America artists are free if we were living in a soviet-style society where they were stomping Solzhenitsyn spoke truth exactly that's that's speaking truth to power but but these guys are not really doing that and I am all in favor of the artist being critical of our society and questioning our society even being revolutionary but that's not what these guys are they're just games let me put the same question in a slightly different way and ground it in Empire of Lies your new novel here's a quotation from Empire of Lies the day it began was an autumn day a Saturday afternoon in October I was sitting in a cushioned chair on the brick patio at the edge of my backyard looking down half an acre of grassy slope to where my two boys were organizing some kind of frisbee game around the swing set I loved our neighborhood horizon hill the hill for short big yards Craftsman houses lake views friendly mostly like-minded people hard-working dads housewife moms not too many divorces lots of kids close quote Andrew Clavin I charge you with having become irretrievably bourgeois you are attempting to do something that cannot be done you're a novelist you seek to inhibit inhabit the world of the entertaining the hip the cool and yet here you are as a Christian and a conservative holding up for praise the square the unhip the conventional you will never be cool again I may never be cool again I'll certainly never be called cool again and yet and I cannot help think I cannot have to think that at the center of the Arts at the center of because at the center of human life is the experience of love and that love is not excluded from the suburbs it's not excluded from the British wildlife it never was it never has been it frequently finds its its best ground to grow in there my life is deeply affected by my marriage which is an anomalous marriage and it's in its romance and it's been a 30-year romance and that's I know that's anomalous and I know that's not something that everybody gets and yet it does give you an insight that this is a possibility that love in marriage is a possibility it stands stand up it seems to me that that possibility has been excluded by the so-called avant-garde who really are the behind guard it's it seems to me that that possibility has been excluded and that putting it forward is in fact a revolutionary act putting it down is in fact saying you know what you know this is here you can't close your eyes to it you can't constantly tell us that all marriages are Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf without us coming back and saying you know I live in this neighborhood and I see marriages that aren't like that at all and reclaim and I pronounce you cool thank you for joining us Andrew Clavin the author of Empire of Lies at the Hoover Institution I'm Peter Robinson for uncommon knowledge thanks for joining us

Channel: Hoover Institution

Views: 317,859

Keywords: HooverInstitutionUK, Klavan, hollywood, religion, values, society, war, terrorism

Id: tNj03cNCu18

Length: 39min 22sec (2362 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 16 2008