The Sonship of Christ EXAMINED - Imad Awde

[Music] the sonship of Christ examined like the last camp meeting last week in Spokane somebody gave me this book it's written by Ty Gibson is in titled the sonship of Christ now I heard a lot about this book wherever wherever I go this book is mentioned or did you read the book by Gibson you know it's going to get being taught now how to oppose the message that we believe in and and so forth if there it is so um I don't I don't like spending time reading books that I don't think I'll benefit from right but I thought I might as well read it so I read it on the way here on the plane I read the whole book every word in it I read every word in it so you don't think somebody would think oh he didn't get it no I read every word in it and what I want to do this morning is share the most important one I think at least the most important thoughts in this book and tell you what I think about them right because as I said this book is being told it's being shared how many of you heard of this book by the way okay fair a few of you all right that's good so to begin with I'll give you a sort of the overall idea of the book as you can see at the bottom it's exploring the covenant identity of God and men so what what what tie does is he puts a new approach to the same old mistake that the sonship of Christ is a metaphor the father and son is a metaphor but he gives it a new approach which seems fresh a new approach and approaches that we need to look at the big picture he says the truth is only known and I will show you the truth is only known to those who look at the whole story and the whole story is that God created Adam and Adam was the son of God who was in the image of God and Adam owes it to reflect the image of God to everybody else but I don't failed to do that so God that he will save man by sending his covenant son who will reflect the image of God to the world and that's why he's called the Son of God in the same way that Adam is called the Son of God in that meaning he will reflect the image and the love of God to humanity so when you read the title son of God it doesn't mean that he's the literal son of God born in the days of eternity all what it means is that he is the Covenant son that's the idea and then he tells you and and this this idea was known to the writers of the Old Testament and God revealed it by saying Israel is my son my firstborn and then this covenant and Israel failed to reveal the character of God and so forth then this covenant sonship is passed on to David who is spoken about in sounds to as this day have I begotten thee and in Psalms 89 this is my only begotten Son or something of that sort begotten son and then the sonship passed on to Solomon and so forth until Jesus was born and the writers of the New Testament understood the whole story so they said this is the Son of God meaning he is the Covenant son who would reflect the image of God that's the idea from the book right that is what he says now here is a couple of statement from the book when he says on page 80 says Jesus is the Son of God in the sense that he fulfilled the entire narrative plotline of the Old Testament but successfully living out the purpose God had for all for Humanity all along so he's the son of God in the sense that he fulfilled the entire narrative Adam was meant to reflect the image of God to everyone he failed so Christ came to save humanity he's the second Adam and then he says on page 96 the sonship of Christ designates his common mental identity in the lineage of David not his ontological origin in some ancient lineage of divine being who engaged in some mysterious begetting process one God giving birth to another as if we're dealing with mythology that's his idea but what he's saying from it is that Jesus is not the Son of God because he was born of God in the days of eternity he's the son of God because he's the Covenant son who will do what Adam failed to do he would reflect the image of God so when you read the term son of God you need to understand it in the big picture he's the Covenant son not the real son and he repeatedly says this truth is only understood to those who understand and read the whole story and he accuses people I believe what I believe that we only pick and choose verses from here and verse from there and we'll the theology on it we don't understand the full story obviously the full story is according to him what I told you and only those who understand this story will understand what it means now I have to agree with ty that the truth is only known to those who know the full story the whole story the mistake that our brother ty has done is that he took the interruption in the story and thought that this is the whole story he's looking at the fall of man thinking that this is the whole story when in reality the fall of man was on an interruption of in the story the creation of man was only a segment in the story the story began way back then with God we humanity we are not the only creation of God angels were created before us told what we know there could be other universes that were created by God so the whole story if you read I want to look at the whole story look at the whole story it goes way back as far as card goes that is the whole story I'll talk more on this as we go but as you examine the whole story from the scriptures you will see that the first thing that God did was he begat a son in his wisdom he begat a son that is the first thing that he did in this story and worried about him beginning a son in proverbs chapter 8 most of you are familiar with it but I rated for the circle of those who are not familiar with it where we read in proverbs chapter 8 beginning at verse 22 where Christ is speaking about himself under the title of wisdom under the title of wisdom it says the Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways before his works of old our set up from everlasting from the beginning or ever the earth was when there were no depth I was brought forth when there were no phantoms abounding with water before the mountains were settled before the hills was I brought forth Jesus or the Son of God was speaking on the Vitara of wisdom in proverbs 8 and he's saying I was brought forth or I was begotten I was born before anything was created now what I'm telling here is nothing new that's what the Adventist Church believed that's what Alan Watts said I'm referring the Adventist Church and Ellen what because thye Gibson is meant to be an Adventist minister right and here it is from Ellen White where she says and the son of God declares concerning himself and she calls problems a 22 to 25 the Lord possessed me in the meaning of his ways so it's not a new theological Ravello or a new theological mistake that we're doing by saying that Jesus speaking under himself about himself under the title of wisdom in Proverbs 8 this is the foundation of the Adventist Church that is a minister oh it's nothing new that's what they believe so think of it this way what toy is really saying is that Jesus was not the literal son of God in the days of eternity he became the Covenant son God they come in son of God when he was born of Mary and became the second Adam here is a statement from him and page one or two from the this book he says Jesus is God's only begotten Son precisely because he is the one in whom God's love is final and fully realized within the human realm clearly John is rib is framing the work of Christ within the Covenant narrative of the Old Testament he is therefore using the title only begotten son in the same way the prophets before him used it to signal the arrival of the faithful covenant son of God again what his meaning is that Jesus is the Son of God the senses he's the Covenant son not in the sense that he's the literal son of God that's what he's saying and he's giving the reason that the reason Jesus is the Son of God he says because he is the one in whom God's love is finally and fully realized I have a question is Jesus the Son of God because he revealed the love of God to us or is the love of God revealed to us because Jesus is the Son of God can you see the difference one is placing the emphasis on what Jesus did what Jesus did made him the son of God what I'm suggesting to you is that what he did is because he's the son of God two different platforms of looking at the gospel two different platforms of looking at the story what is the basis of Christ's sonship him succeeding and revealing the love of God to us or him being born of God what is the sonship and if Jesus failed in his mission does that mean he was never the Son of God are you seeing the thinking forget about what we think what does the Bible say the Bible tells us that the divinity of Jesus and his sonship is based or rather the divinity of Jesus and his Messiahship is based on his sonship is based on the fact that he was begotten of God in the days of eternity one time Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and he asked them a very interesting question in Matthew chapter 22 begin at verse 42 jesus said what Tinky of Christ whose son is he he told the Pharisees that I tell me something you guys are waiting for the Messiah right right okay tell me something this miss are waiting for whose son is he Jesus so many times taught a lot of deep lessons by simply asking questions notice hidden awesome what will the Messiah do when Lamas are revealed love Allah love of God to you will he did he wasn't interested in that what he pointed the attention of the Pharisees is to one very important mark about Jesus whose son is he that's what he focused their attention on that is the unique distinction about this promised Messiah he did not focus on or will he be called the son of God just because he has the title the son of God it doesn't mean him it doesn't mean he is the promised Messiah because many before him were called the sons of God I started truly points out Adam was called the son of God David was called the Son of God and and so forth right Israel was called the Son of God but it didn't make them the promised Messiah neither because he was anointed is he the promised Messiah because I have a whole message on it called which Messiah there were many messiahs and Old Testament Jesus is not the first Messiah the word Messiah if you look it up simply means it comes from the word Messiah which means Anointed the Kings were anointed they were Messiah Cyrus was anointed he was a messiah the priests were anointed there were missiles but Jesus pointed to one very important foundational fact that makes him the promised Messiah and he pointed it to it he pointed it by asking question whose son is he don't miss the point now of course they said he is the son of David the question is Jesus the son of David this is the first verse in the book of Matthew I think it is magical mark one of the Matthew probably says son of the son of David the son of God he's the son of David Jesus was once walking and the blind man said son of David have mercy on me jesus answered them right he's the son of David but when these Pharisees told him he's the son of David notice what he said he saith unto them how then does David in spirit call him Lord saying the Lord said unto my lord sit thou on my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool if David then call him Lord how is he his son so jesus olam oh if you think the Messiah is the son of David how come David calls him Lord Oh Oh nobody dare to ask him anything anymore so when the Jews when these Pharisees told Jesus you the Messiah is the son of David he told me wrong hang on a second but Matthew said you the son of David and you said that's fine the blood man said you the son of David and you ask if they more when these people tell you you know son of David you're rejecting them because when Jesus asked them whose son is he he was not referring to his human birth he was referring to his divine birth that's why the answer was wrong if he was referring to his human birth the answer is correct he's the son of David but this was referring to a previous birth him being born of God in the days of eternity that's why no he said no no no no no David refer to him as Lord meaning this promised Messiah is divine he's not your normal Messiah don't miss this point and in this divine context Jesus asked who son is he his referring to his divine birth King David who was referred to as the Son of God was he not tie points out in his book and King David was anointed was he not so he was the Messiah The Anointed Messiah the son of God King Solomon was the son of God he was the Messiah the son of God nobody wanted to stone him nobody wanted to stone David nobody wanted to stone to stone Solomon for claiming to be the Son of God why is it when this man said I'm the son of God they wanted to stone him and they accuse him of of blasphemy I'll have the worst later why is that if they understood that he is the son of God in the Covenant sense why would they saw him obviously they understood that when Jesus claimed to be the son of God he did not mean by it that he is the Covenant son he did not mean by it that he's a son like David was the son or like Adam was the son or like anybody else was the son he meant Bites something totally different so our trade yes that they wanted to stone him here is what Jesus said about his himself he said in John chapter 8 verse 42 Jesus said unto them if God we're your father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God neither came I of myself but he sent me Jesus in this verse used three different Greek words that are translated as proceeded forth came forth from and sent what was he trying to say you know when we say something like begotten means this oh no no you're wrong because it doesn't mean that when we say proceeded forth means this oh no no you're wrong well I'm just going to call a commentator that is one known by the name of John Gill what he says that him and many other learning men understand this word proceeded forth means notice what he says for I proceeded forth and came from God now John Gill is commenting the former of these phrases are proceeded forth is observed by many learned men to be used by the Septuagint of a proper natural birth as in Genesis 15 for and he designs the eternal generation of Christ as the Son of God being the only begotten of the Father and the son of the Father in truth and love and the other that is came forth is to be understood of his mission from him as a mediator so what John Gill is telling you is that this word proceeded forth means naturally more natural birth our comment on what he said that after but just stick with me with the with the meaning of this word so when Jesus said I proceeded forth what Jesus was saying according to this wise man that I was naturally born of God that's what Jesus said right now of course if you are a Trinitarian and you do not want to contradict what the Bible says the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born of God in the days of eternity but the Trinity clearly says that the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are Co eternal so how do you harm the Bible says that Jesus was begotten of God in the days of eternity and what the Trinity says that they are Co eternal oh we come up with some philosophy that sells the eternal generation yes he was begotten of God but same eternal thing throughout all eternity and to all eternity the Sun will continually be begotten of the Father that's human philosophy to harmonize what the Bible teaches and the doctrine of the Trinity why not just forget about the doctrine of the Trinity and believe of the Bible says wouldn't that be a simpler solution the but the point is what I'm sharing Jesus clearly says our I was born of God in the days of eternity that is why when he said to the Jews I'm the son of God they wanted to stone him they said Jesus all I'm CEO of him whom the father has sanctified and sent into the world thou blasphemous because I said I'm the son of God when they heard him say that I'm the son of God that said you're blaspheming water so bless you is about saying that I'm the Covenant son of God like Adam was what David was like Israel was that's not blasphemy because they understood exactly what he meant he was referring to his natural birth or his begetting of God in the days of eternity meaning he's making himself equal with God that's why they said you are blaspheming you with me they understood what he is saying so again if he's only the son of God in the sense that he's the second Adam I start suggests why did they accuse him of blasphemy they understood exactly what Jesus meant all right the Bible tells us in marker chapter 5 and verse 2 Bethlehem Ephrata you are this is a translation CD Bethlehem Ephrata you are one of the smallest towns in the nation of Judah but the Lord will choose one of your people to rule the nation someone whose family goes back to ancient times in the King James says who origin is from the days of eternity look up that word origin it means exactly that whose family descent whose family goes back so the Bible Old Testament says that the family origin of Jesus goes way back to the days of eternity what does that mean I don't have time to get into into all this but if you want to know more about this aspect of the sonship of Christ watch my presentation thinking about yeah presentations which Messiah or another Jesus and I have also a series of Bible studies called unlocking the mystery of God 9 Bible studies where I just purely the Bible question and the answer is a verse from the Bible about this topic look him up for yourself and and you do the study more but to finish this segment I agree with ty that the truth is only known to those who read and understand the whole story not just one segment in the story the story begins with God back there before the creation of man having a son in his wisdom God had a son that's why he's called the Son of God he's referred to as the wisdom of God think of it creation looking and witnessing a relationship between God and his son and learning how to submit to God by witnessing how Jesus the Son submits to his father in His wisdom God knew so he had a son that's the first thing that God did and then God created all things through his son and then the story tells us that there was a rebellion in heaven a rebellion against the authority of the son the rebellion the problem the fault began in heaven before Adam was created and then we have the story of man's creation which I will deal with bit later on but when he examined the story of man's creation you will see that one coming after the other one coming out of the other yet they are both equal what was God trying to teach from that I will deal with it bit later on and eventually this fallen angel came to Planet Earth man fell so this battle that began in heaven now transferred to planet Earth and planet earth began that became the the platform where this war is raged the accusations began against God not against man that is the big story and then in this interruption of the whole story the fall of man that is we see God illustrating principles from whole from the big story in this interruption by saying that Israel is my son by saying that but by having saying that Dave is my son by having children being born miraculously through the creation of man he's giving lessons of the big story when when you see the relationship between Abraham and Isaac what is God communicating we will look more about this story bit later on but what is God communicating he's communicating the truth that is revealed in a big story in the big picture before the creation of man all these are hints about the big picture inserted in this little picture that we live in in the interruption in this little segment now ty goes on in in chapter 13 entitled in his book Hebrews our eternal brother and in this chapter he says all his that is the Jesus or God son activity all his activity as God's Son notice as God's Son occur within the human realm beginning at the point of his incarnation Adam was the son of God by creation Christ became the Son of God by incarnation but notice these words all the activity as God's Son occurred within the human are fun and interesting that he's saying this in the chapter about Hebrews what is the first verse in Hebrews here is or verse 2 verse 2 so not verse 1 verse 2 it says that God has in these last days spoken to us by his son whom he has appointed heir of all things by whom also he made the world's the first verse of the book that ties commenting on or the second verse of the book tells you that the first thing that this man did as the son of God was create all things so to say in that chapter that the first thing or all his activities are limited to human birth from Marian onward is to miss the whole point of the book it's in the introduction how can you miss that the first thing the son of God did was create the whole world now don't forget the book of Hebrews is written to people like come from Jewish background do you think these people were familiar with the Old Testament of course they were do you think they were familiar with what says in proverbs chapter 8 now going on I read you the first segment 22 to 25 but Jesus speaking on the daughter of wisdom and he's saying I was brought forth it goes on to say verse 27 to 30 when he when God prepared the heavens I was there when he set a compass upon the face of the deep face of the depth when he established the clouds above when he strengthened the Fountains of the deep when he gave to the sea his decree that the water should not pass his commandment when he appointed the foundations of the earth then I was by him as one brought up with him and I was daily his delight rejoicing always before him do you think these people the letter was written to knew these verses so they knew that this person that was brought forth in the days of eternity was there in the days of creation and through him everything was created that's why he told them God created all things through his son and again that's what we read in proverbs chapter 30 verse 4 notice the creation language it says who who has ascended up into heaven or descended who has gathered the wind in his face who has bound the waters in a garment who has established all the ends of the earth what is his name and what is his son's name if the Arkenstone so the author is talking about creation and he attributes creation to two beings and he refers to them by relationship as father and son the Hebrews knew that now our brother ty is familiar with the verses that referred to the son of God as son in the Old Testament he's familiar with them right so how would he explain them he says well as a matter fact I read it for you he says that the members of the Godhead entered into an agreement what the Bible calls a covenant of peace even before time began that one of them would be the medium of communication between God and man therefore enough for ordained sense it can be said with perfect geological accuracy the Christ is God's eternal son eternal sonship was embedded within God's eternal purpose to save us one of the three was given to or set apart for and intimately intertwined with the redemption of the human race even before the world was made and he goes on to say Christ was set up as the Son of God as the one who would mediate all communication and perform all redemptive deeds on behalf of mankind he was always common until it was all his covenant soul pledged to the sonship identity and mission he's saying that to explain why's Jesus referred to as the son of God in the days of eternity his explanation is listen back then before creation happened the Godhead the three of them entered into this Council of peace and agreed that one of them would become the son of God he was given the role of the son of God that's why he's referred to in the Old Testament as the son of God because he was promised before the foundation of the world see how we end up using human philosophy and inserted into the Bible and our theology when it's not there just to justify another human feel was a fee that we had come to believe called the Trinity I find it interesting that he says that that the covenant of peace was between the three of them when the Bible tells us here it is in Zechariah chapter 6 verse 13 even he shall build the temple of the Lord and he shall bear the glory and shall sit and rule upon his throne and he shall be a priest upon his throne and the counsel of peace shall be between them what both what is both means two or three so the Bible tells that the Bible tells us that the covenant of peace is between two not three and because our brother ty is an adventist let's see what Alan watt says to him she says before the foundations of the earth were laid the father and the son had United in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan they had clasp their hands in a solemn pledge the Christ should become the surety for the human race Christ the Son of God should become the surety that should become the son of God no no no the father and a son - only two were in that covenant of peace and the Covenant that if man fall the son will be the surety not God number two will become the son and only two in the Council of peace not three where are we getting this idea from the three in the Council of peace I mean not only that but she also tells him and us she says Christ the word the only begotten of God was one with the Eternal Father one in nature in character in purpose the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God so again I appeal to my brother to our brother time where our beginning this idea that the counsel of peace was between three the Bible clearly tells us is between two and then what that brother tie considers as a prophet tells us is between two and cross is the only being that could enter into that Council of God there's no third being that could enter into the council so I'd say three why invent things to justify our human philosophy that we believe in the Bible says also that Jesus was the begotten Son of God and this was manifested the love of God towards us because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him now English is not my first language but to many of you it is when the Bible says God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son does that mean that John is saying God so loved the world that he sent someone to become the son of God or is it saying that God so loved the world that He sent someone who's already a son of God is it that what English language tell us isn't that what the way so John is saying that God so loved that that he sent His only begotten Son that means Jesus was the or what his name was in Jesus obviously but for to ease of communication Jesus was the son of God the only begotten Son of God before he was sent to Planet Earth now committing on the only begotten son ty says continuing the father-son metaphor God later told David you are my son today I have begotten you that's from sanh chapter two and David says to God you are my father my god the rock of my salvation and God says of David I will make him my firstborn that sons chapter 89 once the torch of sonship succession was passed to Solomon God said of him he shall be my son and I will be his father going on it says in each instance with Solomon David on Israel they are made God's sons not by biological birth but by calling to the Covenant vocation then he goes on to say when John calls Jesus the only begotten of the Father he is identifying him as the one in whom Israel's calling will be finally and fully actualized so he tells you when John says only Otten son it just means luck David luck Solomon luck Israel he's the Covenant son well III have an issue with that because it's misuse of Scripture our brother ty is using the scripture from Psalms chapter 2 to refer it to David and he's saying it's fulfilled in David when the New Testament authors refer to Christ not to David today I have begotten Dee it's referring to Christ not to David and then he uses from sons chapter 89 is saying that what is it same sums 89 I will make him my firstborn again read sounds 89 there are things in that Psalm that do not apply to David specifically that verse that he applied to David here is the verse also I will make him my firstborn higher than the kings of the earth question was David higher than the kings of the earth wasn't his own son Solomon wiser than him and richer than him his own son was higher than him higher the Kings higher than the kings of the earth means he's the king of kings and Lord of lords Lord of lords who is that referring to not to David so don't apply this verse to David it's prophetically speaking about Christ Jesus is the only begotten Son of God what does that mean he's not the son of God but the only begotten Son of God don't miss the word only why is John saying only if he is the son of God in a covenant sense like Adam was like Israel was like David was you can't say only you can't say only only means only you with me I mean look again English is not my first language but I don't mean to be sarcastic I apologize if that's how it's coming across but the Bible means something when it says the words it's not just income paper only begotten son why is he the only begotten son now ty obviously is familiar with this argument so he says he's the only begotten son and he refers to this verse of Hebrews chapter 11 verse 17 by faith Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten Son the idea is that Jesus is called the only begotten Son in the same sense that Isaac is called the only begotten Son well we'll hang on a second let's not confuse things Isaac is called the only begotten son of Abraham Jesus called the only begotten Son of God don't compare the two you want to compare the term only begotten son will compare only becoming son of Isaac compare it with the other verses where it uses the term only begotten son or only son to other human beings that Jesus raised from the XS Jesus was walking and the woman had mono jealous her only begotten son dead and Jesus raised them compare them but don't compare only begotten son of Abraham with only begotten Son of God two different things there are two different things you can't do that plus true Isaac had brothers he wasn't the only son of Abraham but I have a question for you how many sons did Abraham have from Sarah one who was Abraham's first wife Sarah so as far as God is concerned Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham from the wife that was given him Sarah where the promise was made not from Hagar the servant and all the other man man's effort to fulfill God's promise nononononono so yes literally Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham from that marriage literally now if you want to look at the so our brother ty is saying why don't we look at the story when God told Abraham in Genesis chapter 22 verse 2 and he said take now thy son thine only son Isaac whom thou lovest and get thee into the land of more Moriah and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell of thee let me give you the comparison quickly between Isaac and Jesus both fulfilled promises Isaac was the promised son to Abraham Jesus was the promised Messiah both were the only sons of their father that's what says he's the only Son and says about Jesus is the only begotten Son both were loved by their fathers did I miss one both had a three-day experience Isaac journeyed with his father for three days to get to the mountain Christ was dead for three days both a camp were accompanied by two men Isaac had two servants with him Christ was on the cross with two thieves next to him both carried their own wood up the mountain Isaac carried the wood up the mountain and Jesus carried the cross up that mountain both submitted to their fathers Isaac willingly laid down and Jesus submitted himself to his father both asked a question from their father at their death Isaac asked Abraham here is the father and the wood father but where is the lamb and Jesus said my God my God why have you forsaken me it's a beautiful comparison and analogy that God was trying to teach Abraham so what was he trying to teach him was God telling him yes Abraham everything is true but the most important lesson in that parable is not true I'm asking you to give your son but I don't have a son together honestly really what was God trying to say if if Jesus is not the literal son of God as our Robert is saying why didn't God asked Abraham to offer up himself because the idea and the book is that God offered himself he's part of the Trinity so if God wants to illustrate it why didn't he illustrate it correctly one in Telegram offered up yourself why did he tell him offer your son if God sent another part of him we want to call it friend or whatever it is why didn't God asked Abraham to sacrifice his servant his beloved servant why did God tell him Abraham take your only son whom you love what was God saying to Abraham and to all of us who read the story I'm going to give my only son whom I love do not destroy this beautiful picture of love by inserting a human philosophy of three meeting and saying okay well we'll we'll agree you'll be the son and they're not really father-son don't destroy it please God gave us ability as human beings to procreate to have sons and daughters so we can better understand what God went through why didn't God make us in a way that we can just split lock ourselves split and have three at the same time put three well why did he give us a breed to procreate and have children what was he teaching what was he telling Abraham you want to look at the story look at the story properly that's what the story teaches us and another thing very important if Jesus is the metaphorical son of God not the real son of God then when you receive Jesus you will not be a better son than he is a son that means you will never be the real literal son of God you'll be a metaphorical son the whole book is about the Covenant and the two atoms we shall get to and all that it destroys the whole thing we become the sons of God it's not just a metaphor when the Bible says for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son if that second part only begotten son is a metaphor one of the first part is a metaphor to maybe God didn't really love me I don't become a mean son he didn't give his real son the whole thing becomes a metaphor Jesus is the literal son of God notice what again Ellen White says a complete offering has been made for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son notice what she says another son by creation as were the angels nor a son by adoption as is the forgiven sinner but a son begotten in the Express image of the father's person and in all in all the brightness of his majesty and glory one equal with God in authority dignity and divine perfection in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily question when Jesus was born of Mary was he born with all the brightness of divinity no he failed given it with humanity otherwise we will all die so when was Jesus begotten in all the brightness of God it's not referring to him being born of Mary right he was me so for him it's referring to a time when he was born I'd be cutting all the brightness of world which we saw in proverbs chapter 8 which Jesus spoke about in John chapter chapter 8 also now in Chapter 17 in the book that transcendence of God big words our brother ty says that you know what God used he used the word mediation which is meaning that God spoke in human language in the language we understand so he can relate to us his love well I you know what I read with that God spoke in human language so why didn't he tell me what you're telling me because both of you are speaking human language right you are speaking human language and God spoke in human language so I can understand why didn't he tell me what you're saying why did he confuse me and say us and my son why did Jesus come confuse me and say he's the son of God I agree God did speak in a human language the language that we understand that's what he said exactly what he meant that he meant what he said theologians cannot explain God but then God can explain himself so I appeal to all of us let us believe what God said let us keep it simple then in chapter 18 again our brother the title of the chapter the genius of three and he refers to the argument that God is love and love necessitates the existence of three because in a two relationship if a third one comes there be jealousy and what not so the perfect love is to have three I'll show what he says bit later on but I have a question what causes what does my nature cause me to do something or does what I do bring about my nature I'm catching what I'm asking what causes what does God's behavior makes him a God of love or because God is love he behaves lovingly which is which it seems that our brother died because of this misconception of what causes what he did to wrong conclusions number one that we saw earlier Jesus is God's only begotten Son precisely because he is the one in whom God's love is final and fully realized in other words Jesus the Son of God because he did something so what he did made him the son of God that's wrong because he is the son of God he did what he did don't confuse him and other conclusion he comes to which is this one about love we are thinking clearly when we reason like this God is love love is a relational dynamic that requires a minimum of three persons therefore God is a relational dynamic of three persons to say God is love is necessarily to say that God is a minimum relational dynamic of three that is based on the wrong foundation that what God does makes him who is that's wrong because God is love he behaves lovingly God's be it's not that God needed two other gods so he can behave lovingly towards each other so he can become love no don't insert human philosophy into God don't don't do that don't do that this is based on the theology that we become what we do rather than we do what we are let me look at the verses that they bring out this idea that God is love from it's beginning at first John chapter 4 and verse 7 and it says beloved let us love one another for love is of God and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God question do you become born of God when you love your brother or do you love your brother because you're born of God what is John saying he's saying when you're born of God a fruit of it I mean if a station of it is that you will love your brother that's verse 7 then verse 8 and money says he that loveth not knoweth not God for god is love and this was manifested the love of God towards us because the God sent his son his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him question on verse 9 did God send His only begotten Son into the world because he loved us or did he love us because he sent his son did his love cause him to send his son or did the fact that he sent his son caused him to love us okay so what John is saying is that nature brings about behavior right now in the middle of these two verses 7 and 9 he says God is love his point is that nature brings about behavior so when John is saying God is love he's saying that the nature of God is love what a Robert is doing is that he's basing God's love on God's behavior God needs two other gods to love so they can he can be loved that's wrong John's point is that the nature of God causes him to behave lovingly so when it says God is love it's talking about the nature of God not about the behavior of God don't miss the point don't eat scripture I think of it this way it's God merciful his mercy a part of who he is yes well then according to this principle that Ty and many others are bringing about if God is mercy this proves that fallen human beings or fallen creatures existed all along because if there is no one to have mercy on God cannot be mercy because the idea is if you don't have anyone to love you can't below right well if you don't have anyone to have mesh only can be mercy so God was another merciful since his all existence he only became mercy when there was fallen creatures or fallen creatures existed all along that's that's wrong wrong idea then commenting on this verse where it says thou hast loved watches and hidden equity therefore God even the God has anointed thee with the oil of gladness where the father is Co is saying to his son I am your God commenting on this notice what he says he says leaving no confusion as to the to the Christ innate identity the father addresses the son as God and calls him Lord and then the father says to him I am your God and notice what he says each one is God to the other because in fact each one is God Wow Wow see we're out philosophy needs us each one is go to the other so the Sun is got to the father the Holy Spirit is got to the son the Holy Spirit's got to the hang on a second the Bible tells us over and over and over again in the Incarnation and after the Incarnation that the father is the god of the Sun not once not once are we told that the son is the father is the God of the Father we had bring that theology from who I believe that why teach that see where our human philosophy leads us one mistake after another it's a downward path from one mistake to another and then he says going on I'm trying to speed up a bit I know my time is limited he says the family unit is a reproductive phenomenon with a minimum relational dynamic of three father mother child and this minimal unit of three is defined in the creation account of Genesis as the image of God and he gives the reference Genesis 1:26 to 28 and then he goes if God essential identity is traceable to a state of solitaire solitaire sulfone 1 which would be the case if Jesus in any sense had of beginning and if the Holy Spirit did not eternally exist with distinct personhood then love is not essential to God's identity so what is he doing in here to make it simple and quick he's saying that that the image of God that we see in creation tells us that God is three because the family unit of father mother and child is the image of God Wow here are the verses that he referred to Genesis 1 let's read them quickly and God said let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and goes on verse 27 so God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him male and female created he them and God blessed them and God said unto them be fruitful and multiply question where are the children hinted to in these verses they are hinted to in the fact that God gave man ability to multiply right okay so when these children walking around on day six of creation so I have a question to ask when God created man in his own image on day six was man in the image of God on day six so man was in the image of God on day six without children so why is saying that the image of father son and child is the image of God and u30 these verses when these verses tell us that God created man in his own image and he created - why make three you with me the image of God was complete without the existence of children the image of God was complete on day six by having to Adam and Eve without children so it's two not three if you want to be specific to this verse and the way God chose to create man why did he do it that way why didn't God create three why didn't God straight away on day six prayed create father mother and child why did he do it that the way God created did it he created one life the life of Adam and that out of life he brought out another life Eve and out of these two lives later on everybody came this illustrates that in the beginning there was one there is God and out of him came another life as the father had life in himself so has he given to the son to have life in himself and through Jesus everything was created he with me then also why did God do it this way God created Adam first and Adam was by himself in a state of solitary suffered one for a short one why did God do that because animal aimed all the animals and I said you know I'm by myself then God put him to sleep why did God do it this way why did God allow Adam to exist by himself as one a state of solitary cell food because he's trying to teach us the big picture that God was in a state of solitary cell food as one and the interesting thing is that even though Eve came out of Adam later in time it was equal with Adam what was God trying to teach the unfallen beings that even though my son came from me and out of me it doesn't mean he's not equal with me you were they in the big picture the accusation is about God in heaven and God was addressing these accusations in the way he created man so again it's two not three he was teaching that the father was the source of all things all right and again when Adam had children Adam just squealers Genesis 5 3 it says Adam had sons in his own image the children of Adam and Eve were not born in the image of God they were born in the image of fallen man that's why the Bible says he had children in his own image Adam was created in the image of God but Adam fell so that children were in the image fallen image of Adam so if the image of God is made of three father mother and children then humanity never existed in the image of God because the children were born in the image of Adam fallen image of IDA what philosophy leads us it's it's it's confusing and another point I quickly go through it our brother Todd seems to confuse the Trinity is try to ISM I think our brother is not clear on what he believes and he teaches why do I say that this is taken from his book to conceive of God as three personal beings who exist as one and then in the same paragraph he goes on to mention the Trinity right and another place another page he says the three personal beings that compose the social reality that is God were split apart for the love of you and me the treaty does not each three beams just in case you didn't know the Trinity teaches three persons in one being three beings destroyed ISM it's not my words a man by the name of glim part with rata aurora book he's in Australia understanding that Trinity what has God revealed and in the book he does a lot of things that wrote a lot of things at Trent Aeneas love but he talks about three beings so a pastor by the name of Max Hatton who used to be the authority when we had a meeting with the conference in Sydney they brought max Hatton to teach us a Trinity right he wrote three books on the Trinity max I think commenting on Glynn prophets book that talks about three beings notice what he says sorry this is Glenn prophets book he says the three divine beings and so forth but notice what makes having commenting on this book notice what he says I do not believe that Glenn has ever come to grips with a true understanding of the Trinity doctrine itself his contributions on matters relating related to the divinity of the Father Son and Holy Spirit provide a most helpful structure but he does not lead into a true understanding of the Trinity doctrine I am sad to say that I consider it necessary to classic classify its teaching as Troy theistic so according to Max Hatton when you say three beings your duty you are teaching truth is I'm not the Trinity now notice what Max hatton says in another book about Troy theism in his book understanding the Trinity was what which was published by the conference he says an unbalanced view leads to such errors as try theism model ISM and by fizzing try theism results from over emphasis on that freeness it results really in there being three completely separate persons or gods this is really polytheism which really is paganism and that is what our brother ties teaching in his book three divine beings according to max item this is paganism so our brother ty have not understood the Trinity to begin with according to Max Hatton now jumping quickly two more things I have to deal with forgive me if I take bit more time I'm trying to deal with a whole book in one hour to two more points one in Chapter nine chapters sorry nineteen cutting deep into God Todd discusses the agony that Trinity went through when Jesus died and he says but God revealed this Illustrated this when he told Abraham when he made a covenant with Abraham and he told him bring three animals and cut them in half and put them three animals cut in half and then God later came and walked through them and he says the three personal beings that compose the social reality that is God were split apart for the love of you and me each of the three was torn in two within their individual emotional makeup as their blissful Union was ripped apart look I have to admit it's a neat illustration it's nice but it's human philosophy first the cancer was between two beings not three which he refers to in this chapter we are told that we are also told that God and Christ alone alone know what the souls of men have caused so don't bring a third person a third being in second why wouldn't they cut into three pieces if it's a Trinity what were they coming to - so why not interpret it this way if you wanna go with human philosophy or lots philosophize a bit why not interpret it this way you know the animals being cut into two actually illustrates that the father and the son we'll be separated on the cross and the three animals illustrate that they will be separated for three days am i basing my theology live no that's human philosophy it can be interpreted in any way you want fourth God didn't elaborate and bring three animals got all Abraham bring five animals three of which were cut so what are we on to understand the other two is the God had made of five two of which never suffered come on maybe that's not how we study the Bible that's not how we reason okay with all said allow me to close with one last error that this book teaches and I think it's the most important of them all and page 243 he says so here's the thing that is now obvious according to the biblical narrative the Holy Spirit occupies the role of the internal communicator with whom human beings have communion he goes on to say the Holy Spirit points to Jesus who points to the Father therefore the Holy Spirit is neither Jesus nor the father additionally if the Holy Spirit is called another helper and other in addition to Jesus it is evident that the Holy Spirit is a personal being a lot like Jesus yet not Jesus since the Holy Spirit comes to occupy the place vacated by Jesus this is the most dangerous error that this book teaches this means my dear brother and sister as a believer you don't have Jesus and serve you you have another being called God the Holy Spirit because Jesus vacated that position he went to heaven right Todd approach in the book is all about the Covenant is all about the two atoms the two narratives of the two atoms but he misses the most important aspect of the two atoms the most important aspect of the two atoms is the love you receive from the second atom that's what the Bible tells us cross and you the hope of glory it says we are safe by his life it says that he is our life because of his belief in the Trinity or try teasing whichever one is the correct one I don't know he has taken Kraus away from the believer and he has given us another one called God the Holy Spirit Christ is not in you because Christ vacated that position right the comparison of the two atoms is useless if you miss the point that the second atom gives you his own life the bugger repeatedly says that here is a verse always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body the life of Jesus might manifest in our body for we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus sake that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest the whole idea is that you can have the life of Christ to tell me that the Holy Spirit fills the position vacated by Jesus that means I don't have the life of Christ you have no gospel you have no gospel the basis of righteousness by faith my dear brothers and sisters is fun in the indwelling of Christ the only reason we become righteous is because we partake of the divine or righteous nature of God by receiving the life of Jesus Christ quickly I read versus Christ in you the hope of glory greater is He that is in you referring to Christ I'm crucified with Christ yep nevertheless I live yet not i but Christ liveth in me the Christ may dwell in your heart by faith no you're not yourself how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates if Christ be any other body is dead what are all these verses about if Christ vacated that position and we have another one come on you missed the whole point when we receive the Holy Spirit we receive Christ himself who received the very life of Christ this is a foundation of righteousness by faith this is a foundation of the gospel Christ in you comparing these two verses 2nd Corinthians chapter 3 verse 17 Paul says the Lord now the Lord is that spirit that same author wrote to the same people in his first letter that there is one Lord Jesus Christ so what Paul says the Lord he meaning Jesus he said Jesus is that spirit again Alan what because our brother ty is a minister of the Adventist Church she says we want the Holy Spirit which is Jesus Christ she says the Holy Spirit is himself is Christ himself divested of a personality of humanity she says the importation of the Spirit is the importation of the life of Christ she says the life that he laid down in humanity he picks up again to give to humanity what are all these abut if Christ were Cates he goes and we receive another one called God the Holy Spirit the Trinity doctrine brothers and sisters denies the indwelling of Christ and that's what this book teaches and let me tell you something in closing the Bible says and this is the record the God has given to us eternal life and this life is in his son he that has the son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life and fortunately this book after reading it the sonship of Christ by turkey person it denies the sonship of Christ it destroys the gospel it takes Christ away from the believer and introduces another being called God the Holy Spirit who never experienced humanity he doesn't know what it means to be me he doesn't know what it means to be tempted by sin and it robs the believer of eternal life by taking Christ away and giving you someone else the Bible says eternal life is in the son if you want more information on this watch my presentation the gospel vs. the Trinity thank you all for listening attentive and being grace grace to me [Applause] father thank you Lord for your word thank you father for your spirit that leads us into all truth Lord I want to pray for our brother ty Lord I pray that your spirit would work on his heart I pray dear Lord that you will show him what the truth is that he will lead him to the truth because we know that you're not willing that any should perish father pray for all of us that you will protect us from error that your goddess into truth but most importantly help us to hold dear and to the fact that your son Jesus is living in us that we have his life that we are your children this is my prayer in his precious name Amen [Music] [Music]

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Keywords: revelation1412.org, Revelation14:12, Nader Mansour, http://revelation1412.org/, Revelation1412org, Imad Awde, Nader, Mansour, Imad, Awde, SDA, Seventh-day Adventist, Trinity, Triune, Trio, Heavenly Tr

Id: ccrKWgbSi8I

Length: 68min 11sec (4091 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 26 2019