The Shared Roots of Judaism & Catholicism | The Catholic Talk Show

hey everybody welcome back to another very special episode of the Catholic talk show today we have a priest and a Jewish rabbi yeah we're gonna be talking about our shared father Abraham we're gonna be talking about the fact that our Lord and the Apostles of Mary were Jewish we're gonna be talking about the Seder meal and relationship to the Last Supper and we're gonna be talking about the historical context of the relationship between Catholics and Jews so a priest and a rabbi and to Ryan's come on you don't want to miss this show [Music] [Applause] [Music] alright guys really excited today about this episode we've got a rabbi here with us rabbi Dan Gordon from Humble Texas and a synagogue is Temple Beth Torah which means the house of learning gracious perfect we could use it today so as always we got Ryan Ryan father rich and rabbi dam thanks for coming my pleasure I'm excited about it and here in the you Catholic studios again my friends connect with us online wwk a talk show calm as well as all of our social media platforms Twitter Facebook and Instagram and continue to support the show patreon.com forward slash Catholic talk show so that we can have engaging learning sessions just like this with Rabbi Dan this is gonna be an awesome show so let's get started what are we gonna be talking about today again so you know why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the topics you know let us know where you're from and about your Center gun all right I'm originally from Pittsburgh Pennsylvania which I know contention between you and I over there Browns and the Steelers and Judaism and I totally agree I don't know if there's been as many a anti-semitic acts as there have been anti Steeler acts but I did grow up in Pittsburgh I've been in Houston for close to 30 years oh I've been with Temple Beth torah for just over 20 years and I started out as a summer camp director and a professional storyteller and an actor and I went to the University of Michigan another bone of contention with Steeler my temple is in Humble Texas it's in a sea of churches it's the only synagogue around and it's not in one of those one of those distinctions that you know like Orthodox reform conservative we're sort of independent okay we have some more traditional people some less traditional people a very small place but I've been involved as long as I've been a rabbi with connecting with other faiths of taking a few interfaith trips to Israel and we really believe in the whole spirit of inclusion and the spirit of dialog and being able to understand our differences in theology as well as our similarities of values so you know you've done a lot of I guess instruction of Christians in the past where you've spoken to Catholic churches and Presbyterian churches to help Christians better understand the Jewish roots of their own faith and then the context what they couldn't understand Judaism and continued relations going forward is that correct yeah and what I think is one of the most exciting things is to recognize both the similarities and the differences mhm we have a tradition of Midrash which is the the concept of looking at sort of the imagination of instead of just the text of what happened the concepts of what might have happened that's actually one of my favorite things of Jewish tradition as though they'll take a obscure name or obscure place and they'll and they will extrapolate that and find more details about all those little things correct absolutely the in order to qualify as a an official classic Midrash it includes at least one line of sacred text that's right and so it might be something like God says to Abraham go unto yourself and leave your father's house Genesis chapter 12 there's a whole story about why is God talking to Abraham or Abram as he as he's called at that time because it doesn't say anything right before that about how Abram distinguished himself and so there's this whole legend about Abraham's father Terah being an idol maker I remember this yeah yes and that he left Abram who actually in the Midrash is called Abraham because it's a timeless kind of a tale so he leaves his son to watch the shop and his son isn't doing a very good job a whole room of clay statues just a whole room of clay because exactly it's a room of clay statues and there's his son people are coming in asking to buy these idols and Abraham says will are you buying something that was just made yesterday to worship and he's not making very good sales and here's where the sacred text comes in he bring a gifts the idols brings them food and of course they don't eat right nothing happens so he says he quotes from the Psalms which is an amazing thing about Midrash because Abraham can quote from the Psalms that had been written if that hadn't been written yet exactly but he can quote from the Psalms and take him completely out of context they have eyes but they see not ears but they hear not noses but they smell not and tongues but they taste not and he says well if they're not gonna do anything I'm gonna do something takes a stick smashes all of them except for one says what is this mess kind of like risky business before Tom Cruise got a chance to clean up the house and he says well they got into an argument about who was the most powerful they're just stone and clay and Abraham says then why are you worshiping them wow that's that's great that yeah that is phenomenal then and then it gives credence to the question the rabbi's are asking why does Abraham have to leave his home leave his father's house specifically the Bible says leave your home leave your father's house to a place that I will show you well he had this rift with his dad this philosophical rift yeah about and then there's another Midrash that goes on that I won't get into now but about his father taking him to the king and Nimrod was the king and a whole test of faith but it just goes on I've actually read that before I didn't there is a lot that Christians can learn that can extrapolate their understanding and a lot of really great teachings and like that that was amazing from the Midrash that really helps you to I think for a lot of Christians you know the Torah and the the Pentateuch these are things that I don't think that we study as much as we should in a seminary we studied Midrash for you know just one session of biblical theology as well as just like application and something that always struck me with that class was how you know you can apply these teachings to everything sometimes when you're reading the scriptures it's like kind of like what's the context and you've got to read comments every cruise yeah like you've got to read history you've got to really dig in deep to supplemental reading but with the Midrash I mean it just drives points very poetically very in the context of Scripture and really has in spades application in and I think father what you're talking about is to get the teaching that's underneath the surface is we say the Torah is written black on white that the black is the text of what we're taught happened and the white space is in between is what might have happened is the Midrash that's in between when you read between the lines but what you're talking about is taking that teaching as without the presumption of fact the Midrash is not considered factual right it's considered a lesson now I don't want to be sacrilegious there are some Jewish people who take the Midrash as factual I want to say on the outset I don't represent all Jews or all rabbis but the Talmud which is the rabbinic teachings that came that's one of the more the Middle Ages correct um no earlier than that second - like 200 to 500 ok Common Era these are the discussions that came about that had many disagreements that had many different versions and I mean this leads to the to the popular joke in the Jewish community that if you've got three Jews you've got five opinions but that started with the Talmud where the rabbi's are having this discourse and they're not in the same room so they are centuries this conversation could be rabbi akiva says this rabbi Gamaliel said this and they live generations apart from each other so the Talmud would have been kind of post Temple worship after the destruction of the temple where it really goes from a temple oriented to a rabbinic exactly exactly that the that when the temple was destroyed the rituals of sacrifices could no longer be done and so that's when synagogues came about that's when separate worship outside of Jerusalem came about the poetry of prayer and the rabbinic discourse of the you know I do you remember that old commercial with them Smith Barney and John Houseman we make money the old-fashioned way as we earned it okay now let's say the rabbi's they they got their status the old-fashioned way they learned it yeah and that study became as sacred as sacrifice sacrifice Houston one of the things too about the Jewish tradition is and storytelling you know is is that before you know the Old Testament was written there's thousands of years probably a you know of this all of these stories being told narration there's a point you wouldn't call it the Old Testament we call it we call it the Hebrew Scriptures okay or the Bible or the Torah I got married not too long ago and I do not call her my first wife she's just be she's my wife could you still answer the question so the interesting thing about the Talmud is that this discourse went on for centuries but it's called the oral law okay so the oral law was originally not even supposed to be written down but around the Year 200 there was a rabbi named Judah Hanna see Judah the priest who said we better start writing stuff down or else we'll forget it hmm so some of the conversations of the ton that became the Talmud started perhaps around the time of Jesus's lifetime mmm-hmm so Jesus could have conceivably stuck his nose into some of these conversations hmm and they didn't come about until much later see I think that tradition kind of parallels within Catholicism we do continue to follow Scripture and the laws of Scripture but we also have sacred tradition which is not stuff that's explicitly written in the Bible it's stuff that from the teaching cathedra cathedra of the church that we have these law so I think there's a parallel between that scriptural oral law within the church and I think that tradition really underlines the whole thirst of the human person as it relates to give me something practical right so there's there's a synod that I came across in my own diocese from northeast Florida that number of priests got together in the 70s with the bishops and they basically went through like a practicality lesson for priests this is what you do this is what you don't do this and that type of practicality I think we really look for because I really want this to be applied to my life and I think that's why a lot of my interest in the book of you know Yeshua Ben Sira I like the the book of Sirach offers that type of insightful practicality of lessons like give me lessons that I can learn and glean from so that I can apply them to my day to day life no serach would not be in your Bible correct that's from the Septuagint version doesn't have a Bible so it's Ciroc Ciroc would not be in that because that would have been from the the Greek Alexandrian translation of the Jewish Scriptures which after the destruction I think that's one of the lines of demarcation in how we view the Old Testament and the Canon of the Old Testament that differs from the Jews Apocrypha right so it's possible that it's the Apocrypha but there are things that are in the Apocrypha that that may have preceded what got into the Bible what got into the - we caught the Tanakh in Torah Nevi'im Coutu V which is an acronym for the tour is the five books of Moses then the N of that acronym is the prophets mm-hmm and the K of that acronym is the writings okay so the writings are the more poet the prophets are perhaps the more historical and the writings are the more poetic the Book of Ruth the book of Esther Jo proverbs Song of Songs hmm etc but the part of the interesting thing about what's in there is how it changes and also the Jewish word for law for Jewish law is hahaha which comes from the verb to walk so it's like the path but what really becomes interesting is how customs be like law and I think this is what you're talking about a father is that sometimes we create customs and think of them as law so for instance somebody is naming a child okay the Jewish tradition is usually to name a child after someone has passed away all right that's how we think about it because that's in the Ashkenazi tradition mm-hmm which is the very or Eastern Europe and then right so far as the photic tradition is more middle east these are Jewish traditions so that would be like kind of the Latin Church in the Eastern Church see where the ostracon II is like from yeah right so the so Ashkenazi Jews generally originated in Eastern Europe Sephardic Jews generally originated in the Middle East and so they have some driven traditions Sephardic Jews eat rice on Passover Ashkenazic Jews don't Sephardic Jews name their children after someone who's alive Ashkenazic Jews name their children after someone who's passed away and it doesn't mean that they've created a sin if they decide they want to name their child it's different from custom what yeah one of the best customs I ever heard about was a young girl who was watching her mother make a roast and she noticed that her mother cut off the ends of the roast she asked her why did she do that and she said because that's the way my mother did it and so the little girl went to her grandmother and said you know why did you always cut off the ends of the roast and her grandmother said because the pan was too small that's very funny that's very good so let's you know let's talk a little bit about I guess the father of all of you know the monotheistic religion that's Abraham now we were talking about a little bit but Abram of ur who became Abraham and who God made his covenant with I think I think that is the one person that so many people can rally around and that you know that promised God made to Abraham that he was gonna make his children as numerous as the as the Stars the sand and the beach you know looking to him as a point of unity as I can't imagine someone more important to look at to start to get that dialogue in that unity between you know what we call the Abrahamic faiths and those Abrahamic faiths if we could list those sorry I mean you have Judaism you have Christianity you have Islam you'll have the Druze you'll have the the Baha'i there there's or estrogens I believe yes or estrogen might have preceded Judaism necessary and Sikhs yeah there's so there's a lot of them monotheism yeah so there's yeah there's a lot of faiths that will say Abraham is the father in in their faith if I could say something about the you referenced as numerous as the stars and as the grains of sand there's a beautiful Midrash that comes also from Genesis 12 the first two words of that of that passage is les llaha go to yourself you go forth done by four letters two letters repeated less llaha is the same sounds and the is bit just a change in vowels and the letter l' Amud which begins that reaches above the line when you're writing it and they huff the second letter reaches below the line and if you look at it visually I wish I had a piece of paper to draw it it's very much saying the Stars who is a right who is Abraham but someone who hopefully would be able to connect with the heavens and be down to earth hmm yeah that's one of the things that and all the things that I've read about Judaism is the the puns almost in the language and the way that they use those kind of similarities and names and words and then make little alterations who is a really deep tradition with a lot of really cool examples of things just like that right right Avraham could be it could loosely be translated as father of many right or like I know that like like ball right in the Bible the god of the Canaanites ball and they'll call him Beelzebub right so that would be like that was a play on the words of correct me for among the Lord Baal but it also changes it to the Lord of the Flies right so that he was a stinky God who was circling around you know excrement right so they would use these kind of very subtle nuances in the way they would pronounce a word or add something to make it almost a joke as a very clever literary tradition that I've noticed in Jewish writings yes and it also fills in our Christian tradition in a very beautiful way to understand a lot of these things and we're gonna get into some of that later something like that in Paul and Saul so before he had Saul who was named after you know David's predecessor but then when he had his conversion he changed it to Paul and so it's that same kind of Jewish tradition of one little change in the sound of a word completely changes so you went from this you know stately and you know person to Paul which means the littlest of all so and again that shows that Jewish nature of of yeah it's existential the existential transformation absolutely and that's that's important to realize super priests we believe in the in the sacramental church where there's you know transformation that takes place substantially in relationship to the bread and the wine that we receive a Mass we believe X essentially that that transforms but even in the sacrament of the priesthood in Holy Orders that there's an existential change to a person and a person is is identified as father because existentially a sacrament of visible sign of an invisible reality that comes from God there's something there and clearly my whole life is ordered in a different way as a priest as prior to becoming a priest my whole activity day in and day out has radically transformed and similarly for you know a rabbi the your position as you know living out that existential reality I'm curious to find out like how you received this identity and this kind of transformation in your own in your own experience that's a that's a great question because as different from a priest the rabbi is a layperson did we don't we don't presume a special connection with God more special than any other human being the word rabbi means teacher so when I first started when I first started in this profession really what I felt like was that every week I had to come up with something really special to talk about and so that feeling yeah and what I found was I I called it in my own mind looking for the sacred in the ordinary and I would find these ordinary things that would hit me differently and I really wondered it is still wonder did I notice those things before did I create that need when I needed to come up with a sermon or did I always look at those things and I don't know the answer to that question yeah but to find those those nuances it's so true and I find the same thing in my priesthood as well in relationship to how I look at the ordinary how I'm interacting with the people of God that I'm ministering to and the people just in the public space and just interacting with them and in the grocery store and when I'm in the grocery store or an Astros game I'm not sensing you know I'm the Astros rabbi yeah I didn't marry an Astra once yeah yeah he's not on the team anymore I pitched for a team Israel that's his name and he had some good success with team Israel you know it's no more - and this is this is not just you know outside of Catholicism but it's even within Catholicism that people look to the priest is you have a privileged relationship with God and then you're you know in a sense we are set apart in relationship to our celibacy but at the same time you know my personal holiness depends on the zeal of living that out and trying and striving for holiness but that's somewhat likely you know in everybody's you know in everybody's universal call to holiness and I find greater strength coming from like the elders of the faith and people who have lived out their faith and their you know daily communicates and they they're observing you know the commandments of the Lord and and living that out beautifully it inspires me and it strengthens me to even move forward in my own journey it's a beautiful way to say it because how often does someone come to you and say please pray for me or pray for my father or pray for my sister and I'm tempted to want to say your prayers are just as important as mine it's so true right but what but so but what I've come to do is basically to hold them my heart say I'll join my prayers with yours and I think that catechized is people too as well it's like you have an office yourself before God to be able to speak to that for Catholics in Baptism we believe that every baptized member of the faith is priest prophet and King so and priest by office is one that makes intercession and sacrifices so I'm willing to join my sacrifices to yours I'm willing to join my prayers with yours so that we make communally address your need and and that for my office and my my desire my longing my love is that's my whole life that's the order of my life and I wouldn't want to in the tradition priests are saying you are you know and the order of Melchizedek right and Melchizedek was you know from the old from the Bible pre certain the order of Melchizedek and correct me if I'm wrong Abraham upon the Covenant that that initial covenant Abraham was made saw offerings with Melchizedek now McKee's Dec I don't know what the Midrash says about him but even according to Catholic theology he could have been a life real person a priest or he could have been Saint Michael the Archangel because he said he has no no predecessors and there's no one like him Melky is that to me is one of the most interesting characters but yeah that that priesthood of Melchizedek is different than that priesthood of Aaron or the Levitical priesthood right and I think the Catholic priesthood really is more viewed as that continuation of that that Melchizedek priest is it yeah well no and II and in in our tradition the priests like Aaron the descendants of the priests were the ones who fulfilled the rituals of the sacrifice so in many ways that that fits with with the Catholic priesthood that word priest there's an interesting essay by a man named Adam who was an Israeli ie of the 20th century who talked about the priest and the prophet and the way he categorized it was that the priest because the priest is doing rituals and connecting with the people and bringing their offerings to the temple the priest is the one who's there with the people the Prophet is the one who's speaking out telling them what they're doing wrong and how they're going to be punished if they continue on their ways and the the question one of my one of my assignments for a rabbinical school was should the American rabbi be more priest than prophet and it was a telling moment in my writing because I'm a guy the people you know and just before I submitted it I sent it to a very good friend of mine who's a rabbi and he called me immediately and I said I've read your essay it's very well written and I disagree with you 100% and he said that's your problem then everything's okay you're so accepting of everyone and the Prophet who's saying what you're doing wrong you got to push people sometimes so you know I think the next thing that I want to talk about is the context of of our Lord the Blessed Virgin and the Apostles and affected historically and through their practice and through their faith they were Jews I mean this is something this is a historical truth it is something that completely undergirds everything that we understand about them and all the things that they did was done through this prism of they're very faithful very adherent to the law they didn't celebrate Christmas probably did because Jesus had birthdays Mary is the first holiday shopper but they might have celebrated his birthday on his birthday rather than December 22nd tradition and this would go back to one of those kind of Jewish customs from as far as I know is that somebody who was someone who died an important person would die on the same day or they were conceived so the Feast of the Annunciation which celebrates when the Our Lady was conceived conceived miraculously is on March 25th and then according to you know if you look at the calendars of the 33 ad that would be lined up with the friday of passover which would be march 25th so you've died and conceived on March 25th and nine months later is December 25th there you go injured yeah but you know what else is interesting about that is that in the Jewish tradition we observe the day of death rather than the day of birth you know that when we celebrate somebody's life we light a candle every year on the anniversary of their death because in my opinion this isn't what Judaism says in my opinion it's because after their death we're celebrating everything they've done mm-hmm when we celebrate your birthday done anything yes and the same type of thing in our tradition as well in relationship to when we remember people of notoriety and great their faces these days a saint's feast day is always associated if they can with the day that they die obviously we have a calendar that's packed so there's some variation but traditionally speaking it's then and then not so much of a celebration of birthday throughout Europe and the European tradition but also the name day so why you were named a particular name so the feast of Saint Richard for example would be a day that I would celebrate more emphatically than my actual birthday so it comes into like real American kind of popular way of celebrating somebody's birth as opposed to like Martin st. Patrick's Day that was traditionally there that he died so that he was getting his feast in heaven that's what we also encouraged but it's not through the cultural traditions we also encourage the the your baptism data is your birthday right because you're being born into the church into Christ but we digress we have so we won't get into your circumcision day after my son was actually circumcised by a rabbi Walter Reed they they do good job he was born on Thanksgiving Day okay pay extra you have to you have to indulge the circumcision son oh yes when I was only eight days old hurrah hurrah when I was only eight days old hurrah hurrah a man came at me with the knife I thought that he would take my life he only took a little bit off the top so the Apostles would I mean you see this in the New Testament you see the Apostles calling Jesus rabbi they see him calling him rimoni right teacher yeah so I mean they were incredibly Jewish that's what who they were Banu would be our teacher right in the knew at the end okay don't say I know that yeah we refer to emotion Rubino because Moses our teacher mm-hmm so one of the things that I think that this is most evident in I mean you'll see it all throughout scripture that they were going they were doing the Mary would take Jesus eight days after birth or the purification they would have you know they fought with the teachers when they were picking grains on the Sabbath right so I mean you could tell that this was a very deeply Jewish you know people but the the Last Supper in the context of it being a Seder meal is one of the I think the most interesting ways to look at the very historical truth of the Judaism of the Apostles and in our Lord and then how that that Seder meal the symbology behind it and then the institution of the Eucharist how those are very intimately tied together the Lamb of God that's what we call Jesus and that's through the past so why don't you explain a little bit for the Gentiles what the Passover meal is and why that's historically celebrated so it's the exodus hmm it's the exodus from Egypt and it's a ritual that includes 15 things in order the word Seder means order and it's a it's almost an ironic piece that it says that we're supposed to remember this in a very very specific way we were released from bondage to come into a tradition that we're expected to follow the Seder itself that we observe now was developed in the times of the Talmud so it was oh it would have been developed after Jesus's lifetime but it is mentioned in the Torah so the idea of eating unleavened bread etc would have been a tradition or a ritual that he may have that he may have done it according to Christian tradition he did so it makes sense that it would be observed and yet all the nuances were created by the rabbi's much later mm-hmm what are some of those nuances I know there's like the bitter herbs I know that there's you know the cops I know that there's the the progression of the meal there's a sing of certain Psalms Christ there's a there's a progression there are different rituals in terms of remembering the bitterness of slavery with the bitter herbs or with salt water which is the salt of Tears and it's important some of the cup out for the drought Egyptians say exactly that there's there is another Midrash in the in the Torah it will in the Midrash actually where the israelites are dancing as they cross the sea of reeds the angels begin to dance and sing and God says how can you be rejoicing when my children are suffering the Egyptian soldiers are my children too and so from that Midrash in the second cup of wine we pour out a drop for all of the plays one for each of the ten plays they were suffered upon the Egyptians because we say we're not to rejoice because someone else suffered we're rejoicing for our freedom but how sad it was that others suffered because of it and there's a lot of force the four cups of wine relate to four promises in the book of Exodus that God gave the Israelites I will take you out of Egypt I will redeem you from slavery I will take you to be my people and I'll make your people of my own and I will make you a people of my own and within the Seder there are other stories there are four children who ask different questions and learn in different ways and in Jewish learning there are four steps to learning there's the there's the literal meaning of every text there's allegories there's stories and Midrash that embellish it and there's a Kabbalistic approach and so there's a Kabbalistic is more about the numerology and the the this is like angelic and numerology and a deeper understanding morality comes into it but it's more the Kabbalistic is more the mystical the the very deep part that few people will ever get okay that that's the that's called the sowed which is the secret the the four the four levels begin with passat which is the literal meaning remiz which is allegories and metaphors kind of like what I talked about with the letter love and reaching into the sky and the DRA SH is are the stories that embellish it and and then this ode is that mystical peace kind of like a baseball diamond there's a there's a book that was edited by rabbi Judy Abraham's of blessed memory called what's Jewish about the national pastime and I actually have an article in that book describing those four levels of Jewish learning as they relate to baseball diamonds yes so one of the things about I think that I think it's really interesting is that there's the four cups that you have during a traditional Seder meal and then there's a fifth cup that no one has because that is anticipation for Jews of see attic deliverance or whatnot and then there's also the the invitation of Elijah yes so right so toward the end of the Seder after the meal with with between the third and fourth cup we open the door for a light to welcome Elijah in and a lot of the Passover Seder is centered around making it fun for the kids so as is Elijah like the same it's like Jesus coming at the end as Elijah would be a foreteller of Messianic deliverance from I've read that Elijah also checks to make sure that all the men are circumcised and everybody's ready and it prepares them for I guess eschatologically for a deliverance yes there are a lot of legends about Elijah traveling the world in disguise as a beggar as different kinds of personifications to check and see if we're ready and there was there was one very poetic way of looking at it that that I found very beautiful the worded by a poet named Danny Siegel that says if we were to treat each person as if that person was Elijah in disguise that our words and actions would change in such a way that if the Messiah's identity isn't revealed in our lifetime it might not matter that we would create that utopian age gotcha but wait but in the Seder we open the door for the mystical Elijah we sing the the to welcome him in while the kids are all looking at the door sometimes the rabbi will stick an ounce of cassettes or tablet in Elijah's cup of wine and the kids will come back and it'll be a busy guy you know all kinds of interesting things that happen I I think my my nephew went away from religion entirely when it was three years old and was told Elijah is coming and he went to the door and no one was there and he said religions all a lie because we we bring these these traditions right these myths exactly so if you look at the last supper in the institution of the Eucharist and you in the institution of the Holy Orders so you have your first cup and that's that represents the the blessing of the festival day and then the second cup and this is kind of abbreviated version is the beginning of the Passover liturgy and they send the Psalm 113 of Sun then the third cup is the cup of blessing take this all of you and he blesses the cup with this holy and venerable hands and in a seder and it involves the meal and the unleavened bread so that's when they would have been actually eating that's when they would have dipped that was a Last Supper there's a Seder meal right it was because this was happening during the Passover we know that from Scripture now the fourth cup the fourth cup is the the climax of the Passover and that's when Passover concludes the fifth cup is not to be drunk until the Messiah that's right yeah so the fourth cup after the after the third cup do you would sing before the fourth cup you seeing the great Hillel Psalms right and in Hallel means praise haleluya is praise be to God yeah being the first two letters of God's first name so when you hear in the in scripture that the Jesus and the Apostles went to the garden would get so me and they were singing Psalms it says this right so you can conclude that they were seeing these Psalms before the fourth cup was to be drunk including the Passover but he was arrested so he was never able to conclude that Passover now remember they dipped the plunge and wine and vinegar and gave it to him and then he drank it and said it is concluded and then he also said I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until they drink it in the father's kingdom that 5th cup so when he drinks that wine on the cross mixed in that's the fourth cup that is concluding the sacrifice of the Passover and they says it's finished and then that fifth cup he will drink it again new in the kingdom so if you understand the Seder meal and the Passover and the blood of the lamb as a Christian and understand the deeply symbolic things that would have been apparent to a Jewish person of the time it makes a whole lot more sense in a very deep mystical and symbology of logical way and the sense of later gia and liturgy in this remembrance in ritual bridges from the practices of the foundation of the Apostolic Church with judaistic practices so the the practice of what you're talking about in relationship to what we do at Eucharist and Seder bridge in a beautiful way between that lineage of faith of the of our father Abraham really and it's and it's a beautiful bridge when it's explored and discussed and we had a we had a wrap I come to the seminary and perform the Seder and and guide us through an instructional experience when we were at the seminary years ago wonderful experience and you know I just love this this conversation because it's tying that together and it's tying our relationships together something that you're very passionate about rabbi so in in that in the in the garden the Assemblies like let this cup pass through my hands well Christian is like okay cool it's just a metaphor somewhat Cup what cup is passing what cup is he praying to have passed from his hand it's that forth oh it's that calm that he knows is only going to be able to be drunk after his sacrifice after the Paschal Lamb has been sacrificed now when they in in the Passover when they marking the doors with the blood of the Lamb so that the Angel of Death would pass over the house of the houses of the Hebrews they used hyssop to mark the doorways the sponge and even says in there the wine and the sponge were mixed with hyssop so the Gannet has that meaning we're calling the doorways and the blood of the Lamb and all that mixed together so understanding these kind of you cannot get a full understanding of what our Lord and the Apostles did without getting a deeper understanding of the Jewish faith and history so I something as a Catholic and all Christians really need to understand so they could better understand themselves and their brothers and when we conclude the Jewish Passover Seder the last line is lashonna ha baba yerushalayim next year in Jerusalem that we're always looking forward to that unification and yerushalayim Jerusalem if you look at the words again these puns that you that you've talked about before Ryan ears shall aim a city of peace shall aim and Shalom same letters different vows shall a means complete and Shalom means peace and so we're talking about next year we're looking forward to coming closer to a complete peace mmm that is that and talking about like humanly speaking the aspirations of that inner longing for peace and completeness in each of our lives I think that's written down deeply in a philosophical anthropology because that is deeply who we are as a people and we are longing for that peace longing for that completeness and we have to be that fra tres plumb ths we have to be that Latin for built builders of bridges we need to build bridges and again something that you've done with a greater portion of your life and ministry is building bridges and I know when it comes down to what what the Jews suffered in the 20th century and relational or estar longer whoa of course but but we you know as it relates to Catholic Jewish tradition and relationships what I really am interested in is is looking at Papa Bono you know pope john xxiii who was identified by the jewish people as their pope he was the Pope of the Jewish people and he had deep love and affection because it he was responding to the suffering people of his region that he was ministering to as a Vatican diplomat he was in the Middle East he was a diplomat to Constantinople who's in Turkey he was in that area Turkey and Greece and the areas remind me which Pope this one john xxiii yeah so he would've been a diplomat also ah okay okay so he would he would have which is kind of why John Paul took on the name he did John the 23rd then Paul the sixth and then John Paul the first said mom it's gonna continue their work John Paul and then John Paul them one died jump up to and I think relative history you know in this in sincerity looking at st. John Paul the second you know clearly his relationship with the juices tremendous but actually a neighbor of mine from Houston a number of years ago went to high school with him Wow how cool folk about as she was in the girls school that he was in the boys school but she talked about his dramatic ability that she saw him in plays and she actually knew the Pope that's me so I mean if you look historically at the context of Jewish Christian relationships I've always been so great I mean if we're being realistic its religion it's really been a pretty troubled past but I don't think that's from the lacking of the lacking of trying from at least the higher reaches of the Catholic Church especially the Pope's I mean there's been multiple Pope's who really tried to defend the Jewish people but because of the nature of other and then the slur of well deicide or whatever it's just things spiraled out of control on the ground level but if you look back even to early as 5:40 with Pope Gregory Pope Gregory was writing letters to all like the bishops like particularly the bishops of our Lai and Marseille he said for it is necessary to gather those who are at odds with the Christian religion with meekness and faithfulness and kindness and he outlawed any threats to any forced conversions and consecutive Pope's throughout the ages have always said that but then the people on the ground people treat the other terribly and similarly for the for the action liturgically when we are praying on Good Friday when we pray for the Jews what was stricken from the liturgy is the word perfidious that's correct and it's not that it historically it was used prophy day you know like so that without that without faith that they don't have the faith in this action of Jesus in this cup that that was just perfectly described by you by shield but to see that it then became an offensive term exactly and then who struck it from the liturgy was actually Papa Bona yep you know was John the 23rd and he did so because of his great love and realizing in his relationship that this was being treated as an offensive term and clearly that meekness that we need to have in our relationship or relationship with anybody it needs to be one rooted and humility and meekness right and when you talk about the what the people on the ground have done against what the what the leadership may have taught it's I think it's one of the reasons why Jewish people have a hard time thinking about Jewish Jesus as being a Jewish person who taught from what you call the Old Testament who taught from what at his time there wasn't a New Testament but during the time of Jesus he taught from the Testament that existed and I think the Jewish people have a hard time recognizing some of the really wonderful beautiful Jewish teachings that Jesus has done because all those difficulties happened by people who were pretending they were doing it in his name mm-hmm I could definitely see that I mean if you know if people are proposing that they're acting on behalf of the Catholic Church even contrary to the teaching of the church and teaching people terribly it's the time and there isn't view there isn't a religion on this planet that has people that in which there aren't people who misrepresent what their religion is supposed to teach in order to say I am more right than you honor and that's it that's in religion that's in nations but it's politics that we are right and I'm willing to say that the Steelers won any more Super Bowls than the Patriot Act so there is a really important document that I think that all Christians should read and then Jew should read as well as a coot judea's and it was written by Pope Alexander the third and this is as far back is the 11 60s and this was really a codification of how a Christian was supposed to interact with their Jewish brothers and it says the Jews ought to suffer no prejudice we out of the meekness of Christian piety and keeping in the tradition of the footprints of our predecessors met their perdition and we grant them the buckler of our protection the papacy specifically took on the protection of Jewish people for we make no law that no Christian can compel them unwilling or refusing by violence to come to baptism but if any of them should be spontaneously by the sake of the faith flight of Christians once this choice has been evident let us accept him without any calumny indeed so he goes on no Christian ought to presume to injure persons with violence take their property to change the customs what they have had until now in any of the regions they inhabit they shall be able to celebrate their own festivities no one ought to disturb them in any way with club stones well nor anyone required from them to extort them from services they do not know increased taxes except for those that have been custom from times past to perform so we not dare mutilate or diminish a Jewish cemetery nor in any way exam bodies or anything so I mean it was a really specific Christians are not to do this by order the Pope if you hurt if you injure if you prevent them from celebrating their customs as is if you force conversions you are not acting in accordance with the kath of faith but we know that didn't happen you know that's why he wrote it right you know what that is that is an excellent point Ryan because you don't prohibit something unless someone unless somebody's violating it already blind this was written in the context of the Crusades because they were going over there that we're coming in increased contact with Jewish people because they were moving to the east they're going to the Holy Land so obviously this was going on but I mean there's been so many Pope's that have done this but I think the document that there is really I think most clearly spelled this out is from Vatican 2 which is no stray atonte that's correct and Nostra atonte was written it means in our time and it was written as a document of the Second Vatican Council and this was inspired by by Papa Bono john xxiii and the Pope of the Jews because his great love for the Jewish people when he was that Vatican diplomat all throughout the Middle East and constant Constantinople and he was single-handedly single-handedly saving Jews over 50,000 Jews from going to the Holocaust and he was doing so by writing documents documentation fake baptismal certificates and and that type of courage matched with Pius the 12th in relationship to what the church was doing in relationship to you know what was happening violently to them during the Holocaust was really an important point of seeing this is that bridge that we need to build these are the relationships that we need to build because I think difference sometimes can cause conflict and fear and it's based in fear because I don't know you and I'm worried as we get to know each other we're gonna have difference that's going to result in violence where difference can actually become a beautiful point of compliment and contrast and covering that completeness that we're moving towards you just need to look at the at the beginning of Exodus where it says a new king arose in Egypt who did not know Joseph for generations the Israelites lived in Egypt in peace because they knew each other and so when we are separated in different places and different theologies and not communicating with each other that's when we don't know each other and that breeds the fear that you were just off your ass and there was an article written exactly ignorance and it is tied to ignorant because and there was an article a beautiful article called the death of dialog that I read and it's a social media critique of how people just go on social media just to present their ideology and blast everybody else's and it's like there's no dialogue there's no conversation and what I love about our show is that a place for conversation it's not this but it potentially could be yeah but it's it is a perfect breeding gap ground for the killing killing dialogue and ignorance and you know would we regard as the most sacred teaching in all of Torah in Deuteronomy shema yisrael adonai elohenu adonai Ahad Shama listen here o Israel the Lord is our God the Lord is one here listen that listening is the most important sense there can be dude there I'm writing for a grant currently for missing voices and you know we go through and through and we're talking about what are the communities that feel that they're not being listened to and so we're discussing roundtable een and and you know we talked about mental health we talked about people who are struggling struggling with suicidal ideation and this is all focused on the the communities in our myths that are not being listened to yes take a look at jobs to Bittner a german pastor who wrote a book I think it's called unveiling the silence so so we ultimately came down to looking at all these different communities and the missing voices of people feeling like they are not being heard we really highlighted the human sexuality and especially when it comes to the LGBTQ movement it's like we want to be able to listen and to and hear you know to sit down and have conversation meaningful dialogue and that is what we are as human beings that's the way we ought to be so we shouldn't be threatened in any type of setting but to sit down and get to know one another and not allow ignorance to breed violence but to actually allow dialog to bring peace sure ignorance is the lack of knowledge the lack of learning combating ignorance is just about learning about each other yes you know and and you said that that here o Israel even when our when Jesus was specifically asked what is the greatest commandment he said the here o Israel and the second is like it so again that is that commandment here o Israel the Lord is God is one and love your neighbor as yourself right the the most repeated verse in all of Torah is something to the effect of as in different variations treat the stranger as one of your own yep for you were strangers in the land of Egypt well you are a stranger to us and I hope that you feel like you are this is this comes back all the way back to my undergrad years when we studied a Hebrew text and I have no idea you may not know either but I'm gonna give it to you anyways it's something that we studied in our courses of sacred music and it goes something like this Bob Luke alumni ha Mabel rock Baroque I don't I imma vorio love ahead yes never heard it before in my life it is actually the it's the second line when we when we say Shema out loud here o Israel the Lord is our God the Lord is one barakat on item of our rock Leo lungphu II D is the second line which is not in Torah so when we do it in our worship service we say that six word Shema then we interject the line you just sang so beautifully and then we go on with what comes right after it you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your being barakat on I hum of arak Leo Nam Fayed means blessed is God's glorious kingdom mahute oh his kingdom leo love ahead forever and ever amen they'd all agree on that yes now the interesting thing about that is that in a traditional synagogue that is not said aloud it is said silently between the Shema and the next paragraph because of the old superstition of announcing a kingdom in somebody else's kingdom could be dangerous so we would say that line silently except on the holiest day of the year Yom Kippur the Day of Atonement in which we don't give a hoot who's listening thank you thank you that it's like seared in my brain and I'll never forget a bad line to be seen you break yeah yeah well thanks for being here you know I really love i I've always said and in fact a lot of people in my congregation are a Jewish person who's married to a non-jewish person and I've often said if if my entire congregation were Jewish I'd be bored because I really loved the interaction I loved the learning and we are not all the same we don't all think the same but we can learn and respect from each other and in fact I've done one one time I was the keynote speaker at a Presbyterian minister seventh seminar and so I'd love to do that if anybody is interested in learning more about me it's simple rabbi Dan Gordon calm right and yes many but any of you organizations out there that are looking to get a deeper understanding I know we were only really able to scratch the surface here but if you're looking for a opportunity to have your congregation whether it's a Christian congregation or something else to get a deeper understanding of either your Jewish roots of the Christian faith or Judaism itself yeah pastor Dan this was a pastor yeah this was excellent and I couldn't recommend it enough because this conversation was really yeah really educational all you know Frew nice well if I could just add one more piece of teaching it's it's about the separation you know when in in Genesis when creation comes about creation comes about by separation the word is Lahav deal God separated the light from the darkness God separated the firmament above in the firmament below etc etc so there was a rabbi who was teaching his class about the separation between the Sabbath and the rest of the week and that blessing we say blessed is God who separates the sacred from the ordinary and there's a beautiful beautiful short ceremony called Havdalah which comes from the same word separation and like anything else there's something technical about it when do you separate when does night begin when does night begin in the day of the Sabbath and and the technical is though the red threads no that's not the red thread okay now no red threads we can't tell the difference between a red and a black thread then it's technically sundown haven't heard that one okay but that could have been one of the guesses that could have been one of the guesses when it really is sundown is when three stars are visible in the sky interesting so that's that's what the custom says so one of the students asked if day ends at night begins when three stars are visible in the sky when does night end and day begin and that's where yours but I hadn't heard that one the students are guessing because the rabbi says what do you think and one says maybe it's when you can tell the difference between a goat and a sheep he says that's not it and another one says well what about when from a distance you can tell the difference when a fig tree in a palm tree he said that's not it either they keep guessing until finally the student who asked the question says so rabbi you tell us when is it the night ends and day begins the rabbi says when you can look into the eyes of a stranger and see your brother or your sister until then it will always be dark for us was amazing what a phenomenal way to end a beautiful beautiful time together my brothers and sisters thank you for separating your time and making this a priority to your life and a weekly engagement in our content and we thank you so much rabbi dad yeah we really appreciate this was awesome I'd love every mentor my pleasure and this experience we've got more to talk about let's listen again absolutely so until next week my friends it's always a joy journeying with you at the Catholic talk show remember stop in at our website kappa talk show calm and support us at catholic talk show you know in all of our social media presence on Twitter Instagram and Facebook and our patreon app to support us financially at patreon.com forward slash Catholic talk show again we'll see you next week god bless [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: The Catholic Talk Show

Views: 33,970

Keywords: Catholic, Catholic Podcast, Catholic Talk Show, Ryan Scheel, Ryan DellaCrosse, Father Rich Pagano, Catholic Radio, Catholic TV, Catholic Show, Judaism, Sicut Judaeis, Nostra Aetate, Catholic Judaism, Jews, Rabbi Dan Gordon, Midrash, Old Testament, Catholic-Jewish Dialogue

Id: dSMPL5xUJZY

Length: 64min 26sec (3866 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 30 2019