The Rise Of Pagan Gods & The New Caesar | Mark Driscoll, Elon Musk, & Donald J. Trump

hello and welcome back to another episode of theology applied I am your host Pastor Joel weapon with right response Ministries in this particular episode I was privileged to welcome on the show for the very first time CJ Engel and Andrew isker I'm going to allow them to introduce themselves and I'll also introduce the topic for us but I'll give you a little bit of a teaser right here we talk about Christian nationalism we talk about crucidum we talk about Baptists having a hard time with it we talk about our G3 brothers and some of the disagreements we have with them we talk about Mark Driscoll and caesarism and what's going to happen if our Republic Falls because we've lost our minds in the insanity and some of the pietism even from Christians that doesn't want to really push back it's an action-packed episode we talk about the rise of the old gods paganism demonic activity Satanism um really interesting episode really really interesting maybe one of my favorites so if you're looking for something that's interesting uh that's edgy but that holds to the scripture and seeks to be faithful and helpful for everyday Christians like you then stay tuned you're listening to theology applied Mercy Meadows Ranch is a family owned and operated cattle company producing top quality beef in Central Texas Mercy Meadows Ranch serves families Across the Nation by supplying beef that is hormone antibiotic and vaccine free they ship bulk beef Nationwide because they want to enable families to take control over a major portion of their food supply their vision is to help create a christian-based parallel economy and Community to become your trusted beef supplier in support of a multi-generational family heritage and because of their bulk beef deposit launch taking place this summer they are hosting a giveaway to stuff your family's freezer with their grass-fed grain finished beef raised right on their Ranch now to enter the giveaway go to the link in the description and enter your 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familybankingnow at gmail.com to schedule a call again that's family bankingnow at gmail.com send them an email today applying God's word to every aspect of life this is theology applied hi welcome back to another episode of theology applied I am your host Pastor Joel weapon with write response Ministries and in this particular episode I'm privileged to welcome to the show two guests I have both Andrew isker and CJ Ingle is that correct that's correct all right welcome to the show can you guys take a moment and just introduce yourselves what do you do how do you make money what do you do for the kingdom of Jesus Christ who are you go ahead Andrew okay well I am Pastor Andrew isker I'm the pastor of Forestry Evangelical Church in Waseca Minnesota and I also write for gab news and um I'm the co-author with Andrew torba of Christian nationalism uh and so that's that's what I do that's how people know me I I'm I'm on Twitter at Boniface option and on gab at the same title at Boniface option that's that's me um some people don't know that like they meet me in person like that that's you really uh so that's me happens all the time at the grocery stores he gets it all the time I mean I can't get on an airplane you know I didn't know that I had corresponded with you on Twitter multiple times and I didn't know who it was I actually I think I I think I reached out to Eric one time and asked like who is this and he was and Eric Khan set me straight so yeah [Laughter] [Laughter] yeah I'm CJ Ingle and um I I um have a business a physical location business and Manufacturing here in Northern California um that's how I uh provide an income for my family I have four kids and they're homeschooled and um I on Thursdays uh I record with Andrew isker um our Contra mundum podcast and I do lots of writing and stuff when I can um that's my hobby uh but I don't make any money on it so that's that's what I do that takes up all my time is podcasting writing and uh working that's great awesome um all right so one of the things that piqued my interest is I've gotten to know you guys uh well just we you know it's a small crew of guys who who want to see Jesus kingship actually worked out in every single realm of life in Practical meaningful ways we all say Jesus is King and I think a few of us believe it um you know so the few of us who do believe that in practical ways not just King in the 17th Dimension and the Ethereal plain somewhere but that he's actually King here and now in meaningful ways uh ruling through his church um yeah we've kind of banded together so I think I got to know you guys in part through the Ogden Utah boys Refuge Church Brian and Eric and Dan um but then also like you know we have mutual acquaintances with the A.D A.D Robles who's actually on the board with right response Ministries and so I know he's a friend of you guys and mine and John Harris and other guys William wolf and so I actually just got done recording with William wolf in his episode will release before this one I recorded with him in terms of recording time it'll be a week apart these episodes but I recorded with him last night and uh and we were talking about you know the whole Christian nationalism thing and just and all the hullabaloo with uh Baptist um in particular really really struggling with the concept of um a Christian Nation um a Christian government uh and you guys I think have have had some really good insights on that so we want to talk about caesarism but before we get there just I don't know the the lay of the land with Christian nationalists maybe particularly how it deals with Baptists and they're hanging up some of the stuff that we've seen recently with G3 you know guys that I I love and that I respect I've been going back and forth with Josh Bice and Scott um uh annual annual uh annual and uh I always pronounce it incorrectly but going back and forth between those guys and Baptists are really having a hard time right now what do you guys think about that well I think um I think the Baptist as a theological phenomenon uh in Western history um it it needed sort of a anti-establishmentarian approach in order to defend its own right to exist in its own uh you know ecclesiastical efforts I think it needed um that that that that momentum you know in history that was kind of the context of the Baptist World um especially as it existed in in England uh and in in uh New England in America um you know the Baptists needed some of those things to be loosened and so Baptist their own Heritage uh makes them cautious about um rhetoric like Christian nationalism um just because they came out of Christendom in a way um that that they they needed Liberty they needed these some of these themes that we talk about today that have been completely secularized and I think completely abused today but um that rhetoric was birthed within that history Oracle context and so I think they're um they're a little bit cautious about what that means for them and all the products that they have made um in in being able to function independent of you know National Church networks especially with the you know the the involvement of the political sphere with the ecclesiastical sphere so I think that really describes what's going on there um and I think that that when you look at the development of history and the the particularities of uh you know political systems and and stuff like that I don't think um I think that the world has completely changed and so what we mean by you know a Christian Nation is not the same as like trying to re-establish Elizabethan England or anything like that and I think Baptists are just coming to terms with what does that even mean what does that phrase even mean how does it apply to us as Baptists uh do we have a right to exist and I think those kind of conversations are coming to light but they don't realize the extent to which all of that rhetoric all of that development history history has been completely subverted and completely occupied and taken over by a rabidly anti-christian so like if for instance if you read the 1689 confession and it talks about the fact that the king you know the chief magistrate is a representative of God on earth right they they have that rhetoric in there so they didn't have a secular liberalism in mind at all even though they needed to use the the rhetoric of freedom in order to uh you know practice their right um what they consider to be there right uh as independent congregations um from the the conformist you know regulations on ecclesiastical practices so uh the whole world has changed and people don't realize that those that rhetoric that was birthed in the Christian context has been completely severed from Christian history uh and that's what we're dealing with today it's they you know they said that's that's I don't know that's my explanation for why they're having a hard time with it um and I get it like it makes it makes sense like that's that that's why why they're having a hard time with it but I don't think that evangelicals in America are very good at understanding political history and um just political theory in general and that's fine in some contexts they don't need to be practitioners of political philosophy but perhaps if they if they can sit back and learn a little bit more about the development of these of this rhetoric and these phrases and what's actually going on in the world today I think it would give them a more a broader perspective yeah really helpful Andrew yeah I think along the same lines of CJ um you look at this you know so much of this theology uh particularly the political Theology of Baptists and it is a particular political theology that they have it's it's born out of a particular time in a particular place a particular environment you know CJ brings up Elizabethan England and the time after that uh when when the 16 uh 89 you know Baptist confession was written it was not this is a hundred years before the French Revolution it was inconceivable that to in their minds to have a world that was not Christian in in the mere Christendom sense like they they couldn't even begin to comprehend what that would look like you know they couldn't imagine what Soviet Russia would look like or Mao's China or or any of the monstrosities of the 20th century or um you know this totalitarian liberal uh democracy that we love live under today like that that's not something that could even begin to comprehend uh in the world that they lived in um so you you have to take the development and this happens with you know Presbyterian reform people too um you know it's not just bad like what I'm not just going to bash you know Baptist uh you have these guys um I don't know if I need to necessarily name name them here uh but these guys like during kovid who were experts on the Theology of Richard hooker who were like well you should just get the um I know you're you know you might get censored on this you should get the uh medical experiment uh because that's loving your neighbor and that's what Richard hooker would want you to do under his political Theology and if you're not that's then you're just a bad libertarian or something and and like it's just it's absurd to think that 17th century political theology is a one-to-one thing that could be adapted to the current ERA that's not even anywhere close to the world that we live in and so they're having trouble adapting to that I wrote uh last week an article for gab news um you know just entitled Christendom or chaos that and it was about uh I I don't want to mispronounce his name either uh Scott anio what some of his tweets I've been told it's it's annual like annual okay like Daniel you know without the annual yes annual I don't want to I don't want want to mispronounce his name but uh some of his tweets you know I I they just um it's hard and I I don't I don't think these guys are insincere in what they're doing even though I think it's it's some of them are kind of silly um like this I think they really sincerely believe the things that they are are saying but it it ends up being silly because it's such a misreading of the time that we live in thinking that if you have this mere Christendom that existed generally in in America you know in the 17th century and 18th century um if you have that then all of a sudden Baptists are going to start getting burned at the stake that's um that that's not what's what's what's going to happen um and and further like beyond that um in my article I wrote that you know the kind of theology that have works really well for you know I think hopefully your viewers are familiar with Aaron wren's three worlds of evangelicalism right neutral hostile kind of thing what are the three yeah positives that's awesome positive neutral and negative um and so yeah positive world is where the the culture thinks that it's generally a positive thing if you're an Evangelical Christian neutral is they they don't care one way or the other and negative is they're hostile toward it so uh so positive and neutral world and especially I think neutral world like that kind of theology works really well because um the theology yes yeah like that if it it can work it fits it doesn't um there isn't any problem with withholding to it right practically speaking from a practical political standpoint we're not going to come to your lane you don't come into ours autonomous local independent churches without formal affiliations and the same thing the same concept principle that we have in our polity is our same view in terms of our membership regenerate church membership there's no such thing as a Christian anything except for regenerate individual person individual churches individual Christians right like that individual leave us a Libertarian mentality yeah yeah exactly I was just going to say that it's I mean it's no it's it was also a good time to like hold you know libertarian political philosophy during uh neutral world because you could you could hold these ideas because right nobody is going to persecute you if you think that you know that you shouldn't have income tax or or whatever or like uh or that the the government shouldn't build the roads right it's it's the same thing but today now in it you're clearly a negative world and uh this idea that um people who want who want to have a nation that respects the Christian religion that that understand the cultural Christianity actually is a good thing um because because that's some of the debate too like just right there it is cultural Christianity good or bad um I mean is it even is it even conceptually possible I mean because like a lot of Baptists would say that it's a contradiction in terms right yeah you can't have it it's only regenerative because it's the same I would not be one of those Baptists but yeah continue yeah yeah I think yeah absolutely possible because it's been done but yeah well yeah it's it's a question of you know are we talking about because you see these guys where it's like Christian is only used as a noun in the New Testament it's like well thank you but like we're talking about the adjective that's part of the reason so part of the reason it's only used as a noun in the New Testament goes back to what you're saying like being aware of the times like the sons of issachar like you're talking about first century like one of the things you know Brian survey is a friend and I know he's a friend of you guys as well and one of the things that he said uh that I thought was so helpful is just we are not the Lesser sons of former science everybody's let's get back to the first century book of Acts Church you know real Christianity and it's like all right but you read the New Testament and and you read like Paul's writing to the Corinthians and and Paul the Apostle you know this is the approach that I have as a Baptist that a lot of Baptists will not take this approach but when it comes to the Assurance of Salvation and things like that like Paul the Apostle is talking about like you know do not be United with a prostitute do you not know who he you know whose flesh is united with the prostitute becomes one with our own body but he unites with the Lord is one with him in spirit and like and so he's talking about like you guys and or or um once again you should be teachers but you know but I have to give you the basic fundamentals you know you you have to have milk again instead of solid meat but in all these things that he says that he says you know like so you gotta you can't have solid meat um you're babies right it's this backhanded compliment babies in Christ right don't unite yourself with a prostitute why because you were bought with a price in Christ he throws out the Apostle Paul throws out the Assurance of Salvation like candy where where a lot of Baptist pastors actually don't um they assume that uh that the person is unregenerate that they need to re-contemplate rethink their salvation from the ground up um it's so it's it's very individualistic atomistic it's not corporate it's not covenantal even the particular Baptist guys who say that they have covenant theology which I think I actually do by the grace of God and there's some things that I'm working through but all that being said a lot of the guys who claim to be covenantal aren't really covenantal in their thinking and so all that being said um I I think the G3 guys I'll just say this and I'll put it back to you but I think the G3 guys you know steel Manning their argument or I can't really steal man their argument because they haven't really made an argument that you know it's mostly been like like and that's that's part of the frustration with it is it's been silly phrase questions that they know we don't we don't hold to like who's going to be the Protestant Pope you know like um so that that's not making it so I can't call it a silly argument because they're not even making an argument they're asking a question like and which is kind of to be fair it's kind of like asking like um you know uh how often are you beating your wife right you know like I mean it's really it's really disingenuous and and even I think deceitful a little bit and so anyway so I can't say that the um I can't steal man their arguments because they don't have one uh or that they have and they in in their own defense they've said like arguments are coming soon definitions are coming to so they really have not presented an argument um but what I will do because they're Brothers I'll still man their what I perceive to be as their motives as their intentions and I think Scott has expressed it a little bit better than Josh in some of his tweets um that that he uh one of the things that really stood out to me that I profoundly disagree with but that I appreciated um because it just gave us a clue into what's going on there um he he talked about how he sees chrysidum as the culprit Christendom cultural Christianity this kind of you know Christian so a Christian Nation Christian nationalism crucidum cultural Christianity all different ways of describing it a similar concept um he sees that as the culprit for nominal Christianity and he sees nominal Christianity producing nominal seminaries nominal pastors nominal preaching and ultimately lending towards less not more in terms of using Christian back to using as a noun now actual uh regenerate individuals and so so steel Manning I can't steal man the arguments because they haven't given given us one yet but still Manning the intentions the motives because they are brothers and so we're thinking the best in that regard I think their intentions are we don't want people to go to hell and and we legitimately think more people go to hell under Christendom uh than they do downright paganism um and and I don't think they would say Pagan well I think I think they would include that um and so all that being said the problem with that but that is somewhat consistent with the way a lot of Baptists think but with that the argument that you can naturally make I mean it's a real you know those two dots are real easy to connect um well then you know don't catechize your kids right because you don't you know like so apply that from a national level to the family level with with Christian parenting right well you know kids that grow up in a home that's Pagan have a better chance of you know of hearing a pure gospel even if they only hear it one time from an outside Source uh that they haven't been you know they haven't been programmed to build up this immunity towards the true gospel by hearing false nominal gospels you know and those kinds of things and so therefore Pagan kids raised in Pagan environments Pagan homes uh would stand a better chance at conversion and all this is silly you know but but they don't believe that yeah of course they don't believe that yeah of course they don't believe it so just pan it out and apply it to the world and instead of just a family so anyways I'm saying that to say that's I think steel Manning their intentions giving the benefit of the doubt I think they want people to go to heaven right now I don't think you can have a better intention than that praise God absolutely but I think they're profoundly wrong in regards to the means that get us there okay back to you what do you think about that any you think I'm crazy or am I onto something uh I think I think that's part of it for sure uh just not the whole story well yeah no I think that's that's probably a main part of it um they have this conception of um I think that they have this conception where um culture is is something that doesn't really have an effect on the development of of people and so they they kind of think of this is very Enlightenment uh Source thinking where people can uh they're developed by how they study and what they think about certain propositions very rationalistically they don't realize that um God often uses cultural institutions even art and Aesthetics and the things that shape our sentiments and demeanor and instincts all of those things I don't want to say means of Grace in like a sacramental way but those are means that God uses to shape people's minds and direct their attention to heaven right so I don't I don't think that there's I think it's a very Enlightenment uh idea that you can take it individual and if only he has no cultural distractions if he just looks at the pure word of God and exegetes those things for himself and comes to those conclusions on his own I don't think that is actually how um Christianity spreads I think it actually does spread through the shaping of sentiment through the shaping of instincts your demeanor the way that your your own mind interprets the things around you I think those are much more formative things so for instance like in the 20th century um obviously uh Christianity as a culture phenomenon has completely fallen off the map and I think there's a lot more nominal Christianity that there is right now than there has been in a very long time and I think that's a great Point yes I think that that nominal Christians are actually um much more obviously around us you know the people that kind of go to these like um you know mega church I live in California this is like Mega Church Central right everybody goes there and they have this like these like cheap phrases from like from history that actually have no meaning to them like we're saved by faith not by works they have these languages not my home yeah yeah I cannot I cannot out of this world the the bumpers yeah yeah exactly you know and it's like they're the nominal Christians the nominal Christianity like when you take away cultural Christian when you take away culture as influenced by Christian metaphysics when you when you Lo when you close off the ceiling to the sacred and you have this like in this materialistic liberal secularistic evolutionary um world you get so much more nominal Christianity than ever before right and I think that I think that is what these people are completely missing another thing and I know I know you uh you know you guys might have a little different disagreement on me for this but the idea that like um that that we could only focus on like heaven and there's no cultural transformation that can happen um by believing in um a God who created this world for a specific reason he didn't create this world and the the development of history is completely meaningless and all that counts is just getting into heaven one day there really is why would we disagree with you on that I feel like you would believe that less than us I'm I'm post-millennial so I yeah I don't think this I won't even sing Amazing Grace we use the Kansas Christie we you know that we've changed one of the stanzas where we won't sing the Earth will dissolve like snow we'll see it's going to be this world glorified Appalachian Mountains like I like no this is yeah I'm with you this is going to culminate in my point that there are that there are two that there are two kingdoms at Play Here There is our responsibilities within the created order to take care of our family and our kin and the people that God has given around us um that that we have responsibility toward the Health and Welfare of those things in material temporal civil terms that that don't really have to do with getting into heaven I think those are two different Realms and we have obligations and responsibilities based on the fact that we're creatures of God and these these obligations precede the fall they precede the Great Commission even right this is where the two kingdoms comes in they proceed even the Great Commission and so our responsibilities to build um a world around us that reflects the Heavenly City I think is part of our responsibility uh but I don't think that the the critics of Christian nationalism can think in those terms at all I mean they have sort of their own version of one Kingdom theology where the only thing that matters is heaven going to heaven and where pilgrims because nothing here matters the only thing that matters is eternity and I don't think that's true I think there are temporal Kingdom obligations and duties that we have amen I'm gonna say a kingdom guys I'm a fan of though are not you know and what none of us are technically one Kingdom but the emphasis isn't on uh being so Heavenly bounded we're no earthly good if anything the emphasis is on this is the kingdom but it's here but the critics are coming to Earth but that Christ is going to return in the sky we're going to meet him as the accompanying party to go somewhere else where he had no to Usher him back into this world that's a blood-bought world so I you know the one Kingdom kind of guys that I'm with which we would still hold the two kingdoms light and dark rather than common and sacred but you know those kind of guys that I'm linked up with um actually put I think a bigger emphasis on our Earthly Duty than even the classical two Kingdom guys like like Stephen wolf but but I was responding to the critics though the people that don't have we don't have any obligations here you know right those no you're absolutely right so that's a really good point and I actually haven't considered that and that's really helpful for me because I've been thinking you know two kingdom is part of the problem but that's I was in San Diego I Pastor in San Diego so I was just south of Westminster Escondido where they where I'm pretty sure like you know they say you know that Bond Johnson died you know of like there were some natural causes but I think some people were Westminster Escondido might have cut his brake lines out or something you know something I think they might have had a hand but uh but we've heard it you heard it here first this is Cutting Edge cutting its journalism right here but I mean we're talking about van druden the gold standard for like you know nothing will transfer to uh to the kingdom to come um you know except for the physical body being resurrected because we have to at least Encompass that to to avoid being you know outright Heretics and so you know whether it be Michael Horton or van druden or you know these kinds of guys you know in frame I think it did a decent job you know combating them you know with his Escondido theology thing back in the day that he got a lot of flack from that's been so much because I was in San Diego that so when I always think who's the problem who's the problem I always think two kingdom is the problem and there's radical 2K they're definitely the problem and there's classic 2K and they're they're kind of the problem and Stephen wolf but my point is Stephen Wolf's book and you see Jane just the conversation we're having right here and when I finished reading Stephen Wolf's book I was like okay I still disagree with them I still disagree with the the classic 2K uh thing but I I know it's it's steeped in the reformed tradition Calvin and these guys so it's legitimate it's Orthodox um you know I still disagree with them but I realize oh man these guys are all my team you know these guys are absolutely my team now I'm I'm presuppositional you know whereas like wolf is more of a atomist and so like he's going to argue from nature and I always want to say hey that's a great argument from nature and a great argument from reason but God also wrote a book and we're allowed to use the book you know so that's like that's where I'm at you know and that puts me you know more in a ventilian framework but my point is to say I always think of I give the two Kingdom guys I think maybe more Flack I'm kind of repenting here as I'm listening to you because I'm thinking it really is the radical two gay okay guys and the 1K guys but not the 1K guys like Joe boot you know or or who or myself or whatever well the one two gays uh yeah two gays 2K guys who is just it's all heaven and and no significance to the Earthly life at all that's what you're saying I draw a very sharp very sharp distinction between Escondido you know radical modern I would call it modernist 2K compared to like calvinist you know like Continental European two kingdoms theology a lot of the modernist stuff came out of the Puritan conformist debates in England um so a lot of the Continental um thinkers did not have any you know they did not have a modernist 2K theology at all so I draw extremely sharp blind there I wouldn't even call the critics that we just I said they were kind of one 2K they're even harder to call one2k because like they don't have a Theology of Earth right at all you know like it's just and and the other thing too about like like your position is you think that that there is meaning in history because you're a post-millennial whereas they think like this whole thing doesn't doesn't even matter they're almost Gnostic like the material has no relevance to them you know I was gonna say it I was gonna say it yeah no hop into the this card because we've been going back and forth it's really good but I'm sure you got some thoughts too talk about the Gnostic thing you didn't yeah yes yeah uh well that I think that's what it is I mean that's that's some of it too like um you have like you you bring up the yeah you know no earthly good uh quote but that's that's that's so much of it um I mean some of that revolves around eschatology uh that's it's one of what a lot of people are like oh it's not eschatology that's not what's driving for for some people it is for some people it is their eschatological views but not everyone um there are there are a lot of like premium Millennial dispensationalist people who are nonetheless not consistent maybe with their eschatology and still really good like they still really care about their country and and seeing their nation evangelized and things like that um so it's not totally that's not the whole kit and caboodle uh but um I think you know one of the things I wanted to say going back to some of the discussion between 1K and 2K and 0k um is is that um a comment that that Joel made is that um Paul in his letter to the Ephesians you know tells parents to to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and the words you know and this happened like I say this all the time when I'm preaching like I don't like using the original Greek or the original Hebrew all the time because that's usually an opportunity for the pastor to show how big a brain he has and things like that and just to show off uh but sometimes so I try to do it sparingly unless it's like really really important that you understand that particular word and the deep meaning that it has and the word that Paul uses there in Ephesians is Padilla right is paidea and that is a word in Greek I mean Doug Wilson talks about this a lot that's a word in Greek that has massive meaning in classical antiquity right in terms of culture building right like pedia means culture pedia means um this like fully orbed culture that surrounds and engulfs everything around you that you're raised up in that cultural situation and so Paul is commanding the Ephesian Christians to raise up their children inside this Christian culture right so Paul's commanding the Ephesians Christians to raise their children in a in something that's going to ensure that they they don't ever become regenerate and go to hell that's so cruel why would Paul do that yeah I know it's raised them in cultural Christianity like why would you do that exactly yeah yeah that's but that's that's what it is and so like you you extrapolate that from the family because the family is like the first building block of the nation and so you could you could apply from the family to the entire nation that that raising up your nation's children in the pydia of the Lord is also a good thing um that it's better for them to be influenced by Christian like I mean just think about it like in terms of just practical parenting like I've got I've got five little kids and um I I don't let them watch much TV or YouTube or or anything unless like I'm sitting there with them and have the remote um because the Padilla of this culture is is absolutely demonic and so I don't want that that stuff influencing my children I don't want my children's being their minds and hearts and souls being shaped by that pedia I want them to be in a Christian Padilla and and so like you just think about that across the like Nation like look at um I like to watch like really old movies um you know that are 80 70 80 years old and you could see like the the Stark difference and they weren't all totally perfectly Godly or anything you know 70 or 80 years ago but you could see the Stark difference in the culture uh 70 or 80 years ago and the cultural expressions in movies and things like that and how Christian it was or how much it was influenced by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that that's a good thing like I would rather like I've even had my kids we watched Looney Tunes from the 1930s and they're mostly innocuous and silly and and actually full of a lot of classical um cultural stuff and and so anyway like that's way better than the like you turn on Netflix and see the cartoons that they have for little kids not like they're trying to turn them into trans you know like that's like their goal so it's like um it's so obvious that like Christian culture is something that the Apostle Paul commands and that that Christians should be producing in their families and you can you could take that to the rest of the world that make that makes sense to apply that from from the family to the whole world and and that's what was done uh and the flip side of this too is like CJ brings this up that there are a lot of nominal Christians today nominal churches like what happens like like even just going back to the oh we want to be like the first century we want to be like the early church like do you actually understand because like one of the big larps is like if we just LARP as persecuted Christians that's then everything will be okay then we'll only have real Christians in the church then we'll ensure it's only regenerate people inside the church but it's like you read the New Testament and you read uh the early church fathers and all the problems that the church had in the first three or four hundred years right there were a lot of fake Christians that you had to deal with you had all fake churches you had all sorts of heresies all sorts of problems going on it was not an easy time at all and so like persecution actually produces uh this pressure for people to have release valves to relieve that pressure and the release valve is heresy the release valve is false teaching the release valve is is lots of bad stuff and so this idea that like persecution is just the magic wand that makes everything great and brings out the true Christians that's that's simply not true historically it's a fantasy that's a fantastic point because you think of like I mean we couldn't even figure out the hypothetic we didn't even know the God man and what how that's working out I think it's like 400 years to figure that out yeah and so you've got all this heresy going on at the same time and and you're being fed the lions like that like this double whammy on both sides and then you think of like the you know the persecuted Church in China right so like so they're doctrinal bosses right I think I think I have a solution I think I have a solution to make everybody happy we could we could get we could persecute Baptists and then they'd have their persecution and we'd have our Christian nationalism that's a great idea that's let's see you know the battle we don't believe it irony that the Baptist I'm so worried about that but it does sound like they kind of want that you know so the Presbyterians can have their crucidum and the Baptists can have their persecution and regenerative church membership and everybody be happy but I would be really upset now here's the beautiful thing that I'm really I I actually you know you know speaking genuinely I'm really encouraged by is it um uh the rhetoric of of you know called pietism and I'm trying to be fair I just don't know what else to call it I'm not trying to that I'm not trying to use uh hyperbole I really do think it is a form of pietism um but the pietism that's coming out from some of the particular Baptist uh groups and I'm saying particularly about reform Baptist 1689 guys which I would be one of them I I will do the 1689 um it's actually not I've been surprised but like these are guys faithful guys with a lot of esteem a lot of clout a lot of credibility that they earned right that they deserve it um and yet their rhetoric is landing flat with a lot of people um yeah surprise and I'm talking about baptist again it's not just like the Presbyterians are like there you go again perhaps I'm I'm cleaning up on YouTube and Twitter and stuff and you know old Old Glory to God all the grace of God but I mean like I'm getting a ton of followers and getting a ton of you know people emailing I'm having to like talk them off a ledge you know and they're like I you know I'm never gonna give to G3 again I canceled my tickets for you know the conferences and I'm like you know what I think they're still good guys let's give it time let's chill out let's have these discussions you know blah blah blah um but my point is to say that um that yeah like you know the the Baptist wants to be persecuted and so why don't you why don't you let the Presbyterian have his crucidum and then he can persecute the Baptist but ironically and this is a Grace from God the the majority of Baptists in the pews don't agree with some of the you know these Baptists and the pulpits they're like yeah Christendom Christian culture sounds great Christian National yeah I'm a Christian nationalist you know and and they want to go for it and for them now sure it's fine to say Well they're theologically you know ignorant or they don't understand the inner workings um yeah but but at the same time instead of being so disparaging I think like we should also acknowledge um the the average Baptist and the Pew the appeal of Christian nationalism to them is not just that they're neanderthals and and don't understand theology um it's because they genuinely love the Lord Jesus and and just simply want to obey him in every realm of life and that's and and that is I think at its heart that is Christian nationalism and guys will say that's the Martin Bailey there's the bait and switch you know like um no no but that what does obedience look like and I think a lot of guys have not ever had to contemplate it and that's where it goes back to the eschatology astrological issue a lot of guys have never contemplated what it would look like what what we what what uh things we'd have to practically figure out in terms of obedience in every sphere if we ever won they've never had to think about that because they they're they're convinced that we never will win their eschatology plays a point that but what do you seriously what do you do if 70 and I think I thought you know James White did a good a good job on that particular tweet where he said like what do you do if you know 70 of the nation is regenerate like what kind of laws do you write what kind of like you know you know what I mean like and I think most Baptists you know have been able to go you know in this last 150 years have been able to live their entire life and never have to contemplate that question because it's for them it's it's a foregone conclusion it'll never happen yeah it's like being a fan of the Detroit Lions and thinking about the Super Bowl like like what uh you know I would never really thought about it before you know or like a dog chasing a car you know like what do I do if I catch one uh but that's that's that's really like the attitude right is well we're just never gonna win we're doomed to fail like that's in the background and and so um but I think like a vision the thing that's attractive to people is a vision of of success like you maybe what if what if you're not doomed to fail what if a nation can be evangelized what if what if that can happen what if it can happen quickly um I mean you see this like I mean one of the things that I you brought up in in my article on my last article was like you see this in the Bible and some of it is like this this covenantalism right that we talked about earlier in in that and and like it's this is like nails on the chalkboard for a lot of Baptists but uh like uh people we aren't individual solitary human beings that are totally on islands and tabula rasa like we've talked about this with with cultural stuff um that you aren't just you're not just like Neo in The Matrix where you just plug something into your neck and that's either the Bible or like secular culture and then you just download that into your brain uh that's not how people are like there's tons of influences family Society everything else that that drives how you think um and so like in the Bible you see Jonah go to Nineveh and the king of Nineveh believes him like he doesn't even tell him to do anything it just says like Nineveh is going to get nuked uh in 40 days look out um and the king of Nineveh is like wow uh he's probably right we better fast and he makes everybody fast and he didn't say you know he didn't make a decree now only do this if you mean it uh he made the entire city fast and what did God do God didn't say well they really believed it so I'm gonna spare them it's like no they they did this performative thing and I'm going to spare them because of it and so is every single ninevite there regenerate and saved and believing no um were there people that or maybe we don't know for sure the men of Nineveh yes he doesn't say some of them but the Nineveh will rise up and judge they'll be on my sixth generation and judge this generation of Israel and like yeah I want to jump in here in defensive Baptists a little bit um uh I don't think that uh this comes out of this I think I think it some of the rhetoric some of the problems and the skepticism comes from the historical development of things but I don't think it's necessitated by 1689 federalism or something like that I think actually baptism Baptist theology as an American phenomenon um is its own unique development and it grew it grew up in a cultural political context in which the secular narratives about the meaning of America had adopted liberal rhetoric about you know absolute individual freedom and universalism and Universal rights and all these all that rhetoric that defines what I call the post-war American political myth and I think back to American American Baptists was kind of developed within that milieu and so I don't think it's necessitated by 17th century Baptist literature I think it's necessitated by uh just the political phenomenon of 20th century America that's helpful right that's that's kind of my point so because like if you took if you took someone like like Nehemiah Cox and even like John Owen and some of these other congregationalists who are pro pro Cromwell I you can I will bet anyone you know thousands of dollars that they would not have said that the political Society needed to be secular of course not John Gill like I mean John Gill and he talks of he talks about the civil magistrate yeah um and and it enforcing keeping uh the first table of the law not just in regards to love for neighbor but the first four of The Commandments loving the Lord um these these Baptist guys were sabbatarian they thought that Society should be sabbatarian I'm sabotary like so and and here's the thing it wasn't it wasn't a wrongful binding conscious because some of the Baptists you know Reformed Baptist Brothers you know will be like well the Baptist has a strong understanding of the liberty of the conscience and this yeah amen um but within a context right yeah but but here's it but here's the beauty of um like uh Sabbath laws um the state uh can enforce and legislate a day of rest um but Caesar can never legislate a day of worship so he can he can legislate the distractions and and Blas blasphemy and and um perversions of of worship be removed but he can't make the heart of man worship so so to say that yeah you know businesses are going to be closed on the Lord's day you know except for act you know um Works of Mercy and necessity like that's I mean that and we're not talking about this uh hypothetical Utopia we're talking about um our nation not that long ago yeah our nation not that long ago and I think we've just so quickly forgotten so if we don't but this is what I want to get to now so let's transfer over and maybe maybe we got like 15 20 minutes but this is really interesting that you guys have talked about I heard you that's why I invited you on the show if we don't get these things straight and and we stick with just this kind of Boomer con theology you know Baptist and some Presbyterians alike and we keep going down this road and um you know in our political you know system as we know it continues to fall apart uh because of all the pagans and then Christians being pietists and not really you know dealing with it um what is that going to result in well I don't think it's kind of like if we go down this path I think I think it's kind of already baked into the cake okay and I think wait I think what you're referring to is the phenomenon of what's called caesarism that's right yeah right talk to me about that caesarism um was kind of foreseen because democracy as like this um you know this this Zeitgeist of like democracy where all the old monarchies of Europe had a transition and become more of a you know people's republics right that was kind of like the phenomenon that was happening a lot of conservatives in the uh 18th and 19th century were saying that democracy can't sustain itself and eventually it was gonna um since there was no since there was no one binding the nation together and focusing it on some sort of collective will what was going to happen is you were going to have this like cultural Anarchy where everyone was going their own way nobody belonged to the nation nobody belonged to each other there was no uh roots or no coincidence of will or Coincidence of of culture and that you were going to have someone that kind of came into Power sort of a hero and he kind of absorbed all that he became the representative of the people he became the embodiment of the national will and that was called caesarism and the first modern caesarist was Napoleon Bonaparte um I was in Napoleon Dynamite but Napoleon anyways but so Napoleon Bonaparte he was kind of seen as so after the French Revolution right their whole objective was to tear down the ancient regime the ancient regime their whole their whole the whole objective was to tear down this uh you know thousand years of Christendom and create this um you know individualistic universalistic utopian society um and in the early years of the French Revolution uh Napoleon was pro-french Revolution he was Pro all of this stuff and then he realized what was happening was complete chaos and so he swept in took control and said I am the state like like that was his that was his phrase he said what is a throat because the monarchies used to embody France they were the embodiment of friend the monarchy was the embodiment of the of the French people and he said what is the throne but but it wouldn't share I am the state I am the embodiment of the people's will and he became the first modern Caesar because when you had these I am the science actually I mean exactly well that's a microcosm example but that's it seems like that it's the same kind of sentiment of like I am science it doesn't matter we used to have uh like all these different individuals and Collective and we would debate it together but now there's one voice in i in it yeah yeah but I mean this is this is what happens when there's no Direction when there's no people like the the US federal government does not actually represent the people it's just a big bureaucracy it's just a big administrative state that had kind of functions in its own in its own um like like a silo right it doesn't care about the interest of the people their culture their history it's only working directly for its own interests right and what's going to happen is you're going to have somebody that comes and embodies the will of the people and the will of the people right now is extremely ticked off and the Caesar is not going to be nice that's just what happens so I agree with all that here's a question it's a genuine question question because I just want to understand at the time in France was there uh was there a Unity with the will of the people so we've got this whole bureaucracy that doesn't actually represent us but the people were were they unite because the one thing that that I struggle with with that scenario playing out in America is I think we have two very very opposing Wills of the people you know what I mean one one is um that they want to cut cut off the penises of little boys and murder babies in the womb and then the other will the people is not even necessarily distinctly Christian right we want it to be that again but it's like I want to be able to work a job be left alone be able to own a home have single income uh be able to have kids and not be afraid you know we're you know that we're going to be uh you know slaughtered in the street right I think you know what I mean but my point is like we're so divided as a nation we don't have a singular political will well as a nation so what guy that like I think that's what we keep going back Trump was kind of like that guy but only for 50 of the nation I don't know what I mean I don't think the first I don't think the first category is a is a will of the people I think it's completely orchestrated Elite and it's propagated in front of all of us into the major institutions I don't think it's the will of the people at all so you think that that's actually a small minority yeah that's being and I'm not even like half the country yeah and I'm not even saying I trust the people I'm not really a populist you know I kind of um I'm kind of suspicious of the will of the masses you know so um I I do I do have sort of an aristocratic elitist mind of set not that I am an aristocrat or Elite but I do I don't trust the masses um I do I do think that a healthy Society has leaders and it has Representatives that shape the will of the people but in a Caesar situation in which there's just complete Democratic chaos and nobody gets along with anybody you are going to have someone that comes in and claims to be you know he may not necessarily accurately represent the will to people like I think if you had someone like um like a like a like a Putin or some some sort of strong man like um like like take someone like um like or like Victor Orban in Hungary I don't think he's a caesarist but I think he does accurately represent the will of the people you know but I don't think our season would be that for us I don't explain the speculation game for a moment like who like who would be someone like that it doesn't exist yet yeah or he lit yeah Trump kind of was but I feel like he's so lost touch with his base you know like he's still defending the goodness of warp speed vaccine and stuff like that and it's like dude I don't I don't think he's really on the political scene yet or at least he hasn't taken on those characteristics where do you think he'll come from do you think do you think he'll be like no I don't think so I I disagree with CJ in that but look let's go ahead CJ yeah I don't I don't think he'll be I don't really think he'll be a Christian I think he'll be a like a right like a really like a strong right I think he'll use Christianity um to appeal to the people but I don't think he'll be like an Evangelical or anything like that I think they're too pacified uh which may be a good thing I don't know if you necessarily want um a Caesar figure to have like um like an Evangelical um belief system I think that would be very distortionary is that a word distortionary I don't know so I I don't think he would be Evangelical but I think I think he will be on the right I think he'll be um I I think he'll I think actually it'll be someone like a boo Kaylee you know what he did like in El Salvador like Gathering up the gangs and like imprisoning people like very Law and Order I think it'll be more like that I think it'll be someone that's kind of a tough on crime kind of person what do you think it's good because I remember you guys talking about Mark Driscoll you know and I thought that was super interesting like you know but go go ahead you you said you differ with CJ on this yeah I think um I I agree with CJ in the sense that conservative evangelicalism is not the kind of you know seed bed that a Caesar would grow out of at least in current year in 2023 I mean just just looking at the controversy of this week and the reaction and everything like they're not ready for a Caesar yet um if they can't look at um voting data and demographics subjectively right and and they lose their minds over it uh so like they're they're not ready for it yet but I think things can change rather quickly I think Trump like just just in terms of like discussions like this one that we're having over political theology um would probably not be possible before 2016. uh some of that is because of the situation of negative world uh some of that is because Trump won and was a was a you know a Sola figure maybe or a you know a proto-cizer um certainly this kind of like popular Tribune uh that that um identified with his people I mean it could be it could be a guy like RFK like he just announced for the presidency and it has very has a very appealing message to a lot of people um but ultimately like I think some of it is like you we live in a mass media age and so without a doubt it absolutely has to be someone that oozes Charisma and yeah in fact like yeah yeah let me just say be funny he has to be funny and likable uh yes that's but let me let me just say this uh the idea of caesarism as a phenomenon was really coined by Max Weber who is a sociologist and he wrote about it in his book or his like monograph uh called Charisma so if okay yeah if you want to learn more about caesarism Max Weber is the guy and his essay is called uh Charisma I think it's just called Charisma yeah okay but that that's and so like I brought um I brought up Mark Driscoll in that context because here's this guy who um I remember listen when I was in college you know watching his sermons for me and I love yeah I loved it he was awesome I I loved it too and I remember him talking about like he learned to preach not by going to Seminary and going to a homiletics class but by watching Chris studying Chris Rock and it's like whoa I remember that yeah you're right those are the most skilled preachers in our day that are able to convey points by by being funny and and making it humorous and and things like that so um and that's what he did like that's his sermons were all all like that like they're they're so I they were hilarious many of them and and you could just you're like man I'd like to hang out with that guy uh that's how you felt and so um a Caesar is going to be like like that like that's why Trump is so loved by people even though like yeah there's there's tons of stuff about him that is awful and and terrible and I hate um just even even in like his presidency even though I supported him like parkour like you know majorly backed up like and when people especially before he's gonna win everything I was like no I he's the guy he's great uh and so it cost me a lot to support him and so I was behind him I'm not criticizing him from the like other people do I'm criticizing him from the perspective of a supporter uh but he was likable like I would I would talk to people that are not were never really into politics kind of normies you know and they they'd they'd say you know we talk about politics buddies of mine I'm like why do you why do you like Trump and they're like like to a man every single one of them be like he is so funny like it's like I turn on the TV and everything he says is hilarious um and that's that's the reality so he's gonna have to be someone that um on television in video on the internet like is just is popular funny like Trump was hilarious on Twitter uh that's part of it as well um he was able to effectively use social media um and so it it would have to be you know someone like that so that's why I'm like what could be a guy like Mark Driscoll like if Mark Driscoll started to you know uh read about the friend enemy distinction and become extremely right-wing maybe um I don't know but like something like that like that's I mean that's part of like the whole Driscoll thing we covered this before like you know there were there problems with him and things like that yeah I think so um there were there were ways that he sinned in his church for sure but um and Eric brought this up like the reason he had to go down is because he was not a squishy big Eva guy right um and so imagine if he hadn't gone down one thing he's like I think Mark had problems I was asked 29 Pastor so I was I was okay you know part of some of this I think Mark had problems um there are way bigger problems with Chandler than there were with Mark oh yeah Chandler's woke woke is himself are you are you kidding me I pulled my church out of Acts 29 in 2018 when Eric Mason who at the time was on the international board for Acts 29 wrote woke Church talking about white spaces and colored spaces at the Lord's table light and he's and and their buds and and there was Chandler just doubled down on on wokism and you know the whole like anglo-6 versus or seven versus uh you know African-American six that rhetoric you know the white privilege kind of stuff all that kind of stuff that um so like Driscoll wasn't a heretic you got to give them that you know and so like I mean there were certain things like I mean I think he could have brushed up on some of his Doctrine don't get me wrong um and maybe certain things in terms of his style and and a lot of a lot of the things that would have actually been like objectively damning for Driscoll I can't speak to because I I wasn't there um it was a lot of the behind the scenes kind of stuff like did like did you I would have to definitively like did you or did you not curse out someone in Pastor uh pastoral counseling because a lot of the public stuff from the pulpit and those kinds of things um You can disagree with it and you can even say it's sinful but it wasn't disqualified not from the pulpit the closest you could get to that that in terms of his like public um um rhetoric would be actually in terms of written form uh under the pseudonym of William Wallace II and some of the things that he said about women and then you know in terms of only like verified you know um big you know actions you know in terms of like played plagiarism or using Church funds uh for the book but even the church fun thing it's like okay other people made that decision it's not you know like um he made the decision too but there was a collective you can argue about how that's bad church polity this um this kind of like Elite you know they he didn't have a true plurality of Elders you know but neither do Presbyterians you know and so like so I you know I you know all that being said my point is just like he you know you know and and then if you're using the funds because you're going to buy books for the use of the church so that the book you know you know Rises through through the ranks of the New York Times bestseller so that more people read it so that they have better more Christian marriages like you know so anyways and I'm not saying there aren't problems with that and ethics involved but in terms of like clear-cut disqualifying rhetoric I can make a much more definitive so hear me I'm not saying Driscoll is the best guy in the world what I'm saying though is I can make a much clearer definitive case for the disqualification of Matt Chandler than Mark Driscoll yeah yeah absolutely and so like but imagine if like Driscoll was still on top like none of that had happened they hadn't you know taken him down and he was still on top from what did it happen like 2013 2014 something like that um and so all of the Trump years and everything he's still at Mars Hill and still prom a prominent voice um and he's prominent in like the big Eva circles uh it wouldn't have gone as woke as it did like it couldn't it couldn't have right if he was there and Chandler wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did and Eric Mason wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did so like all like there's a trickle-down effect of him getting you know knocked off of the as king of the hill right and all these other guys sweep in and go Mega woke like that that has that is an effect and so I mean I look at it like yeah say you know he's kind of on this Redemption path right and coming back into prominence again um I mean I saw like Jordan Peterson's daughter is is attending his church and and that's that's rather interesting yeah yeah Michaela Peterson's going there and and like um you know tweeted about it or something like that uh so you know you think about those things um but he he has an effect and he has um and so if he's drawing like millions of people and that are listening to him again and things like this like that that's not something they're going to be able to avoid and that's going to have like he's going to be um I almost said bulwark uh he is going to be uh uh he's he's going to be someone that that uh big Evo will have to contend with um and so I mean in the context of the caesarism discussion and I think that's how he got started on that road I think like a guy like that can shift the needle majorly um even though evangelicalism as a whole is not ready for it yet but if all it takes is one leader who is fearless and is willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about um and and so if you have that um then then things could change really quick and so if he wants to be that guy especially like our whole society is built on lies about everything and so if he starts telling and he and he's a guy who has shown um has demonstrated over the last 20 years that he is perfectly willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about uh so so when I bring it up him up in that context I'm not I'm not just like oh I hope it's hip you know it's more like like the conditions for the kind of you know Caesar in in the Modern Age um are there because it's not going to be you know normally you would be like well it's going to be some like general or something it would be some military figure but like the Amer like that's out of that's not gonna happen like look I mean look at my generals dog like General Millie uh I mean General Billy just looks like he got out of the Old Country Buffet uh Lloyd Austin as well like I mean they're all and half of them are are women you know it's like you're like the US military today like anyone who has been an officer in the military has had a long career uh will tell you like it's designed against having a coup like if you want to be a colonel or above you have to completely submit to the whole you know Global homo agenda from day one or you're never going to rise through the ranks like the whole pentagon is that way some of them maybe slip through the cracks like you have like the one that worked in Trump his administration briefly uh uh kind of a strange guy uh I can't uh uh Michael uh something like he he made it through the ranks but he's he's like a Vietnam vet like he's an older older guy um like today that's not gonna happen like you're not gonna get a military figure Like A Douglas MacArthur um in there that's that's gonna you know be a threat to the regime so it's gonna have to go somewhere else see it or is he just not he doesn't have the um that he's he doesn't know how to talk I don't think I don't think Elon has like um the personality no it's not the personality I don't I think it's the the will to think politically I think he's he's so restrained in terms of like economic functionality that I don't think he can think in terms of like higher things I think he's he's strictly like an economic Machiavellian you have to have someone who's very politically oriented and okay to wield power I don't think Elon wants to wield power well I mean he I mean he did a little bit with the whole Twitter thing but you're right like I mean even the I remember the Tweet where he said I'm voting Republican for the first time in my life because uh I always voted Democrat because I thought they were the party of of kindness and tolerance and I remember seeing that and this is like less than two years ago kindness and tolerance I thought like and I and I look like I I like Googled it like how old is Elon like how many years like how many times has he gone around the Sun thinking that Democrats are the party of kindness and tolerance and I was like he's building rocket ships how does this happen you know what I mean like how can you be so dumb and so smart at the same time and it's just you know well okay yeah so maybe it's like a slow place so yeah but but if that is sincere uh to to express that level of political ignorance it shows that there's just very little interest because we know that he has the intellect to understand something if he cared so that makes him seem like he's not a candidate just affirming your point I also think that there's a place for someone like um like like Stalin so Stalin the way he got into power and he was not he was not at all like um like a like a disciple of of Lenin as it turns out he was a party man he played himself cool he you know he rose through the wings kind of in the background like Trotsky was on the Forefront of like the Revolutionary power and he was always like a labor man he was like writing and on the Forefront his agenda was just out in the open Stalin was just behind the scenes keeping quiet nobody knew what he thought or even who he was really he was just kind of a player until like right at the very end he like succeeded let in like in a price happenstance and suddenly like the entire like leninist movement had turned stalinist in a completely different redirection so it could be someone like that it doesn't even have to be someone who's all the way he's out there right now like it could be someone who's behind the backgrounds keeping themselves and their agenda like on the download that like there's a there's a concern the considerable amount of right-wing Anonymous players within strategic places in society that don't even vocalize what they believe but they are in positions uh I don't like it's not it's not ready yet but I could see someone kind of in that position ready to cease power like immediately like that nobody even sees it coming so that's another aspect of it's fascinating and just let the listener understand we're not saying and this is the biblical model and this is what we're hoping for and this is like we're not saying that um but we're just saying that like yeah when when Christians will when Christians become pietyists and and throw in you know the towel and hand things over to paganism because secularism is just a placeholder secularism is not a viable worldview I I describe it it's a parasite you have host and you know the one true and definitely eternally viable host is the Christian you know the Christian faith the Christian worldview but there are other hosts that are have viability not to the same degree but that are viable for 500 years you know even 5 000 years like what one and the most viable host other than Christian faith would be Christian heresies right not just not just paganism but like Islam uh Judaism which is a Christian heresy um you know because it's not just the Old Testament minus the news the top you guys know these things you know it's a perversion and so um Judaism and Islam I think are like these are going to be long-standing you know World Views um because they have so much viability because they are their tweaks and perversions of the Christian faith you know which is Christ's principles which work God made the world he knows how it works his principles are successful and and viable um and then there's paganism which is you know not like Islam or Judaism but like Norse mythology or things like that the old gods the rise of the old gods which I think is where the West is headed um and paganism is also more viable I would consider it a host it's not a parasite it is a host um but it's like there's a Christianity that's your best host then there's Christian heresies Islam Judaism that's the second best host like the second tier host and then third tier host would be like paganism um but then secularism it doesn't even make the host classification it's it's a it's a parasite and and it's a parasite that has looked like a viable host one of the most viable hosts in all of human history because it detached itself to the most violent the truly most viable host which is crucidum and so it's been feeding off of chrysidum you know ever since the enlightenment you can argue earlier you could argue later you know when picking up steam along the way but um but the problem with parasites is eventually they kill the host and and seal their own Doom they die as well so secularism is not going to be what replaces Christianity secularism will be what kills Christianity and itself it will implode and paganism will likely take the place so all that being said back to the listener we're not saying these are the things we're hoping for we're saying but this is what we're observing if we don't repent if we don't take a stand if we don't and out of that kind of of context that kind of environment and culture of paganism replacing christidum and uh like then yeah like some kind of some guy who speaks with like with religious rhetoric you know and is a staunch defender of the family and normative like natural values that um and and like yeah that guy could could be king he could be king you know and and that is entirely possible because that's how much um it's biblical no because that's how much we've lost our minds like it's it's very unusual and I would I would argue um you know you you bring up that that paganism will return I I haven't listened to that uh theology podcast episode yet it was really interesting to that yeah uh but so I I'm not gonna disagree with I thought it is yeah I I I don't think so I think um I Think Jesus conquered the principalities and powers and um and the elemental principles of the world which is what what the old Covenant world was all the you know demons that ruled over all these nations um and and everywhere the gospel is gone like those those um Gods fall uh and I don't think they come back even though are there demons in the world and and so forth yes um I I think that um what is replacing it what the the replacement here is like wokeness is a Christian heresy like wokeness is is this kind of uh puritanism without Jesus and without any hope of Salvation with any hope of redemption um and so it it has taken on like this religious fervor this religious zealotry um and it's it's it it is this like replacement religion really uh for these people and I and I don't so I don't think that um yeah you see it a little bit like these like Pagan Norse larpers and people that wear like Thor you know necklaces and things like that you see that a little bit um but I don't think that it I mean some of that is is based around like far right you know politics too and people wanting to get into like uh White identity and and going back to the old gods without that'll fix everything um that's not um but I don't think those things are coming back that toothpaste is is not going back in in the tube um I I think you could be right my thought is just like can principalities so yes uh the strong man has been bound and we're now plundering the house and and we're sitting currently in human history of 2000 years of plundering and so there's a lot of things you know a lot of demonic activity has been silenced about like Jesus is casting out Devils all the time we're like you know let's get back to the other book about back so let's do the same thing well they're just Israel had a lot of devils yeah right like Israel had a lot of devils like we're talking about you know we're talking about a a group of people in a society that um that for hundreds of years had had been steeped in unbelief rebelling against Yahweh and and ultimately he came to his own and they received him not and and so um so there was a lot of devils to cast out and so um so I do believe that progressively throughout human history there are less and less Devils the strong man Satan has been bound and his minions are being subdued by Christ's body which is the church in the world but I guess my thought is if there are any Devils left can Devils move so my thought is that like if Zambia and Uganda right if Africa uh knows that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and chrysidum takes root in Africa in certain parts of Asia and these kinds of things you know in South America um and they come out of paganism um do the gods do the do the old gods pagan gods die or did they move to the West right do they find the house swept clean and put in order and come back you know and and you see what I'm saying because Christendom Christ what he does is he the Christian God right I I like the you know the the illustration of uh the Hulk you know like like grabbing load key and slamming back puny God like the Christian God does not play Jesus does not play well with with other gods he doesn't share um and so uh and so what Jesus does is the first thing he does is he he moves into a house and he empties it um and kicks out all puny Gods um and then he sweeps it clean and puts it in order and that's like back to the the podea you know like uh the the curriculum and the culture even like the ocean we're swimming in um Christianity Christendom and so Jesus like he he he empties he first removes false gods because he will not share um his glory with another so he he empties the house and and you can do this with individuals but you can do it with with Nations uh and so he empties the house but then he also puts it into order and that's what for 500 years uh Jesus thinking Christian thought put it in order but then the problem is if you then kick out Jesus The God Who emptied the house in the first place and put it all in order but then you say hey thanks for cleaning up around here um you know see you later uh then you know then I think in some ways you've set the stage um for for not only for false gods to come back but for false gods to come back and then have access to an ordered house to do even greater greater damage like paganism with technology that came from Christianity and Christian thought you know like and so there's I don't know I I'm not hanging my hat here saying this is my you know forever official position but it's interesting to think about absolutely you know where we're at go go ahead back to you guys in his in his wokeness I mean is is wokeness demonic like I I use that phrase a lot and I'm because I mean it is it a demonic ideology yeah I think so I mean all false false uh you know Christian heresies are are demonic uh in in their nature so you know is the house swept clean and then demons uh come back um I I think so like I mean what is like when I say that abortion is um a sacrament to to these people like actual blood of babies is being poured out on the ground like it's a ritual like that's that's that's really happening and we should look like we should read The Book of Leviticus and see that like the this mirror image of it is is happening in our own society that that's that's very real or like when you read oh go ahead I was I was just because that's my point is casting out is not destroying we know there's an appointed time for these demons to actually be destroyed in the Lake of Fire um but Jesus goes to Israel and he's casting them out they're going somewhere and that's back to the text you know of of you know when a demon is cast out it goes through it's not when he ca he's cast out he dies it's um or he's destroyed or he goes to the Lake of Fire when he's cast out he goes through arid places waterless places like um and so I'm getting a little you know like haunted Cosmos here you know which which I love by the way but like but just think you know it's awesome but I'm just saying like did did these did these pagan gods um yes Christ is King he's progressively his kingdom is growing but there are dips the Tourette trajectory for the Post Mill guys up but there are dips along the way and some of them could be deep deep dips and during one of those dips um the demons that were removed because of christidum they weren't killed they went somewhere and can they come back for a season to be removed again you know but um I that's just a question I have even within a post-millennial framework so yeah I agree CJ any any thoughts from you you've been very patient what are you talking about I have a I have a more of a classical email perspective um so so I actually do believe that over time uh it was the function and role of Christendom to to silence the old Gods uh but I do believe that they're going to make a Last Stand so I do that's I mean that's my take is over history you know Christ conquers the Earth and Christendom is the like the expression the embodiment of that conquering um but at the end there is a Last Stand and Christ comes back and sends them um away forever until you know to Eternal tournament so I do I do think that there is a Last Stand and I think we do see over the ebb and flow of History sort of the reverberance of these of these themes coming back and and the the ritualistic expression of these old uh the influence of these old gods and so uh yeah that's that's my view that's yeah so it sounds like we're right on board we have different ways of articulating but you're right like that our escheological you know Persuasions both accommodate that very real possibility because it's just like it's just I just get tired of hearing like it's just a joke we're just joking we're just joking about this thing say you know satanic Grammys we're just joking about like I I don't it's gotten to a point with like with leaders and whether it be you know the the global you know economic Forum you know like whether it's the George Soros type or whether it's the uh you know the Hollywood you know realm like there's just too many like verified testimonies and examples going for decades now and only ramping up for me to think that it's just we're really just joking that it's a joke I think you guys love the devil I think yeah I think all I think all cultures are are manifestations of of spiritual struggle so yeah I think I think every culture is is the reflection of the uh the conflict between Angels and Demons like basically like that so I I think yeah those that's they're joking but they're also bragging and mocking about their um occupation of the American culture right yeah right they may be joking but I I don't think there's there's actually a really creepy oh man like there's actually you you would like this but there's actually a really there's actually a really creepy like uh not creepy but it's like a really neat way of expressing what's happening um and it was written by a Catholic but he just talks about the fact that like everyone is looking at these forms of entertainment and they're looking at the way that we're amused by them um he calls them barbarians um and he basically says that like modern man is looking in at the Barbarian watching him we're tolerating him and we're not really afraid and then he says we're tickled by The Barbarians of reverence his comic inversion of our old certitudes and our fixed Creeds refreshes us and we laugh and then he says but as we laugh we are watched by large and awful faces from Beyond and on those faces there is no smile so that's my view I mean it is creepy I mean it's that's hilarious that's hilar bellock by the way who's a Roman Catholic writer but still I I agree with that I think Beyond The Shadow of of the forms of entertainment that are before us are these unsmiling faces watching us you know dude as you literally as you're starting to talk about that all of a sudden like there's like thunder happening outside right now I don't know if you guys could hear it but like it was a clear sky and now like I'm hearing Thunders on the show so anyways I I need to um I need to be manly and go ahead and land the plane so that I can crawl under my covers Jesus blood uh but yeah I no this is really really interesting I'd love to have you guys back on again in the future and uh I appreciate just um your work and and standing for the truth and um yeah and and just for everybody listening again um we I think of like great heart uh Pilgrims Progress you know part two and like the corporate version like the church um great heart could have made it to the celestial City in an afternoon but the goal was that little faith would get there you know Mr ready to hold feeble-minded and um and so if anybody made it all the way to the end of the episode I just want to say um yeah there are guys we disagree with but like we love these guys I I love Josh Bice I love you know Scott annual I love like and and we fought against wokeness together and it's just it's frustrating we agreed on the problem and some of those guys we agreed on the problem and just I'll speak for myself maybe not you guys but it's not just we agreed on the problem they helped me see the problem they led me in in that they you know I was playing Robin to their Batman and um and and it's and so it's not uh it's not we're not like we don't want to just uh trivialize uh it's sad that we don't agree on the solution and um and uh but these are brothers we love them and um and I I think I think a lot of these guys are going to come around I really I feel really hopeful I really do me too all right thank you guys so much for coming on the show really appreciate it and uh thanks to all the listeners for tuning in God bless thank you thanks foreign [Music]

Channel: Right Response Ministries

Views: 23,627

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Id: FdTEeZxahPI

Length: 83min 18sec (4998 seconds)

Published: Wed May 03 2023