The Reason American Students Get Held Back and British Students Don’t

hello everybody and welcome back to a man who  has five feet my name is evan edinger and this is   a luke cutforth i am a little comfortable it is  true today we're making an interesting video about   being held back or not a thing that the uk doesn't  do also today's video is sponsored by nordvpn   you'll hear more about them at the end of the  video but yeah luke why don't you guys hold your   students back if they fail over here uh why don't  we okay this is the thing that i think there's   every few years it kind of gets discussed in  parliament i'm disgusted what okay uh every   few years he gets discussed and then um i guess  it's just like there's there's not an awful lot   of evidence to support it as far as i know what  that is that it helps that it helps yeah i think   the stuff i've seen it generally is like uh it  helps maybe for a couple of years but by the time   you actually get to the end of school the results  are sort of negligible but and one of the theories   on that i think is like because actually it gives  you quite a big knock of confidence to be helped   oh yeah definitely and so that might actually  then make you less like his confidence is part of   it's not just being like thrown a bunch of  information it's also about confidence and   um emotional development and all that kind of  thing so then cause for us if you fail a grade   which means if you get under a 70 usually like  a d for the entire average you strongly get i   think it's not strongly you just have to  get held back at that point if it's under   which means you then spend an hour another year  not with your friends you have to make new friends   yeah being the older kid i think you've just  answered why we don't have it i guess it's because   i think but then what do you do do you just  constantly have the kid like failing upwards   uh yeah very possibly obviously there are  downsides to both strategies yeah but your   side sort of leans towards outside sort of leans  towards a kind of holistic view of education which   is it's not just about um information retention  and comprehension of that information yeah   it's also about you know you're learning how to  operate in the world and learning how to sort of   make friends and sort of uh you know but to  be a person isn't that a risk then of having   students finish the schooling system not being  able to retain like the derivative of 2x dx   oh yeah from 10 to 13. what a horrible outcome  that would be well basic things then like certain   history geological stuff yeah so that's exactly  exactly the point is that i guess at least english   it's sort of a wider philosophical discussion  about what the purpose of school is and it   sounds like the american system if you have the  system where you're holding people back or indeed   letting people skip years as well um that is  focusing entirely on information retention and   information comprehension which is the sort of  surface level yeah yeah purpose of school more   than that is what you're saying yeah and i think  that the the downsides of holding people back   i guess might be the reason why it's not been  implemented although i think it is quite a popular   idea i think it's fairly well accepted by by sort  of general population if you poll people in the uk   they're actually kind of favorable for it  because don't you feel like rather than have   a student failing and then gra going to the next  class and then always failing to possibly be   held back so that now wow they got they did  well and then they get confidence from that   from actually like being better because they've  had to learn it already once and so then   they're a bit better off yeah to be  clear i don't think there's any any   bad like and there's nothing inherently bad about  the idea of holding your back and actually yes   what you're sort of describing there i guess is  like the idea of holding people back sort of moves   it closer to this um like you having your own  individual uh almost like tutoring right yeah yeah   if you're taking longer the school holds you back  and then you get to relearn everything and that is   the positive side i guess of it is that um you get  you get like sort of a slightly more customized   schooling experience whereas in in our schooling  experience it's just like you're in this class   you'll be in this class you guys have sets don't  you yeah exactly we don't we don't really from my   experience i've never really had sets until you  get to like high school then you have like the   standard college prep and then honors or ap events  placement and maybe you don't have sets because   if you fail you just get held back so like our  version is like um if you've got for example maths   yeah you go into like different math sets and  which are full of people students that are also as   the same level as you yeah right it'd be like it's  like you know a few bands right you're like higher   you go to the middle and then you'll have like  other end personally i think that allows the   students that are really good to excel more  but then what about the other people well   the other people get sort of like you probably  each set is probably targeting a certain grade   and so if you're in the top set you are looking to  get an a star a if you're in the medium set maybe   you're looking to get a b or a c and if you're in  the lower set maybe you're looking to get like a d   um or a c right and so um if you're in the  lower sets they're probably not teaching you   they're probably teaching you enough to get what  they expect the grade that you will get and that   can be to a certain extent like a false uh a  self-fulfilling prophecy yeah um but it's about   like accepting where somebody's at yeah meeting  them where they're at and then trying to raise   them up and if you you know are like targeting a  c or a d and then you're being taught the stuff   that will like set you apart in the a star a  band that's a waste of your time to be honest   really i mean i think do you think every student  has the potential to get the a's and the a stars   i don't i don't disagree with you but then also  everyone has different problems with their family   and things like that oh yeah yeah exactly and  and you know school can try and do something   about that but there's only so much the school  can do especially when it's a state school and   there's limited resources and limited number of  teachers and massive class sizes yeah um the thing   i find really sad about it really about the idea  of being held back or not being held back is it   sort of a weird discussion where actually um  there are people with different abilities and   if we had sort of smaller class sizes for example  the idea of having to set people and also having   to hold people back might not be necessary  because the teacher can actually just give   time to an individual more than rather than having  to teach a massive class and that's a problem of   resources yes like i believe i remember in when i  took psychology psychology i learned that they did   a study and found out that students in the front  row actually get a better education than students   in the back row oh my god which meant that and  usually teachers like putting the students in the   front that they like the most and so they actually  get a better education the people that are failing   continue to fail worse because they're not as  engaged with the class and i thought that was   absolutely fascinating um so i guess teachers pets  you know further dreams yeah that's really weird   yeah because i i had some classes where we're  allowed to pick where we see it in some classes   where we're sat by your letter right like edinger  was e so i had to sit usually fourth or fifth seat   oh no i don't think it was ever done alphabet ours  was always alphabetical seating yeah that seems   so arbitrary like we usually had like like the  naughtiest kid would have been in the front row   so for example that's good yeah okay because  they're trying i mean i never thought about it   from the perspective of the t the the front row  actually gets a better education i thought about   it as like teacher wants to be able to keep an eye  on you so you're not being naughty or if they're   a bit skeezy what does that mean you know like a  bit i definitely had teachers that put selective   girls in the front to ogle uh that was just my  perspective it's very creepy just yes but it was   what year uh high school which is still [ __ ]  up no that is but yeah i mean what year in high   school high school's oh i remember that happening  in ninth grade but definitely one was ninth grade   great yeah i don't yeah it was ninth grade  definitely and but this took a turn yeah that   doesn't have to do with being held back i guess  but similar topic what percentage of students   do you think what percentage of students do you  think get held back on average well i i mean i i   in the u.s obviously because you guys don't do it  i would imagine most people get held back at least   one year what no really 10 10. i thought 10 was  high when i read that figure so they got the hell   back at least one year no as in 10 students get  held back once at all right okay okay right okay   i say it yeah it's quite rare to get held back but  the max you can get held back is two years because   anything more than that the public school system  doesn't afford uh people that are over 20 years   old so once you're 21 you you can't legally drink  and be in high school just doesn't do you have any   information as to whether holding back actually  works yes i believe there was a study done by   harvard recently that showed that i think it was  uh it actually did help short-term gains of math   and english retention yeah so the students did  have a big benefit but they didn't actually find   any correlation between students that were held  back versus not and going into secondary education   oh so you can be held back in primary school as  well yes yeah third grade third grade hold back is   one of the most uh popular times to hold a student  back because of a certain reading level they want   to make sure that by the time you graduate third  grade your reading level is at a very specific   spot and if it's not it's incredibly encouraged  to take them back which of all things i do think   reading is the most important you know in society  to know of reading and writing so that's the one   that was studied mostly but like i said it did  actually have a benefit for most the students   in the short term but they didn't actually find  anything for if they went into upper education   uh higher likelihood i feel as well like i  mean obviously you can't cater to this because   um it it sucks like kids will always find  things to bully each other for yes but i feel   like getting hold back held back would be like a  real source of bullying and then you're just like   like there's already the problem but you're  bigger than now well you become the bully you   are but maybe they'll all like hold back  your face they're all gang up on you like   if you're you you might be bigger than them but  if there's like five of them and it's also like   emotion emotional belief oh yeah like punching  you yeah it doesn't feel good to to know that you   got held back it's a big confidence thing i think  like you said um however i think usually after the   first year you're then part of that year yeah so  it's not like everyone knows you from especially   because at least from my school area you go  to the same primary school until sixth grade   and then you move on to middle school and then  high school so people aren't going to know if you   moved to a different high school that you were  held back in third grade it's actually a really   interesting point as well because like the idea  of holding holding back um it also comes into the   sort of the idea we have which is like you're  putting year boundaries based on when you were   born right it's like horoscopes yeah exactly and  and what's really strange about that is that you   can be really young for your year and you can be  really old for a year and you can you're actually   in the same year as somebody who's like like like  11 months older than you yeah and then peop the   oldest people in the year below are like a couple  of weeks younger than you yeah you would have   been eight months older than me because you're in  april i'm a july so i graduated high school at 17   and i was always the youngest in every single  class and that's because you have the decision   as a parent when your child turns like four to put  them in then or wait a year and my parents put me   in early and i played a lot of math blaster a lot  of video games about learning so i was totally   fine and when's your year boundary in america  i believe it is what i mean your boundary oh so   your parents can picks there might be isn't it  you can only pick if you're a summer child okay   so yeah our year boundary i think is september i'm  pretty sure oh i think ours is august because our   school year as you know starts in september and  ends in june so we have july and august completely   off to party it up right because i was really  young for my year as well as an april birthday   ah maybe i'm wrong maybe i'm wrong i don't  know i i i well i was really small for my year   oh well you're really small for a year still so  like so maybe yeah maybe not i don't know i'm five   foot ten plus so yes maybe i actually was about  half i was like in halfway actually i think maybe   um yeah but i i do find it a very interesting  thing that you have like you can be in a school   year based on um that is essentially like being  held back yes if you're really or skipping old   for your year or you're really young for a  year that's like being in the wrong year it's   like being held back and skipping yeah are  you guys in the uk allowed to skip forward   no what so i'm talking very generally i think  there are a few cases of people being held back   sure there are i don't think i've ever heard of a  case of skipping forward really because that's a   big thing if you pass a lot of tests really really  well they're like why don't we push him forward   because he can exceed even more like he's wasting  his time yeah as a kid uh if i wasn't fully   engaged and i felt bored of the content i would  then do badly before i put it on two times speed   if they had two times content in school i would  have done so much better i just got bored and   so they had to have special classes to be like  wake up i yeah i i okay i'll put it this way   i learned about being held back in school  yeah from american tv that i was watching   so if it is occasionally a thing then maybe  maybe yeah but your thought is it's probably   just because you've seen too much tv well i just  don't think it particularly happens in the uk   ever uh and not even like a genius boy would skip  forward i don't think so you might but be put into   um a special learning i did which was higher  maths yeah so like i then did an extra thing   on top of doing maths i did like higher maths  yeah as well so i learned more like i was doing   a bit of a level math whilst i was doing gcse  maths what year would that be that was year 11   so oh wow so quite late yeah so that's us with  advanced placement you can take the college math   and take the standard math but in primary school  we only had the option of they'd pull you aside   if your school had the budget for it to the  you're going to do the advanced like logical   reasoning and cultural diversity classes  while everyone else does like basic reading   yeah and that would have been top set and  we also had like the gifted and talented   that's what it was yeah um which you know has  various uh criticisms i do agree but i also think   from my experience of it that helped me be better  i guess but also i understand that not everyone   had that opportunity but i tested to it so it's  not like my fault yeah but i also understand   that everyone should have the opportunity for  that level of one-on-one teaching but obviously   that's a bunch of one-on-one teachers it was  like three on one so it was like three students   in my entire year and we would spend about two  periods of primary school being with a teacher   who would help us through logical reasoning tests  and puzzles and that would help our minds grow in   that way and we learn about japan we learn about  different cultures and then we go back and it was   because we had tested like 100 on the math and the  reading test and so they were like we don't need   them to be in here i didn't do anything like that  no not at all i went to like summer camp physics   that's pretty cool at durham university  that's not cool i did after school   after school extra maths did you do a robot club  as well did you get that from my wikipedia yeah   yeah i did yeah in year like eight i was part of  like this robot team and we like built robots and   we went off to do robot challenges and we won one  of the robot challenges so that was pretty cool   so in the end do you actually think we should hold  our children back if they aren't up to spec no   really i think we should so yeah this is a bit  of a lovely conversation but i'm also thinking   that still should be a thing but also the jury's  still out but i think it's i like the option   for safety i think we should put a  bit more resources into schooling and   have a bit more um have smaller classes absolutely  yes and more opportunities for people to be helped   if they're struggling and tutoring yes there's  100 should be more tutoring for kids that need   that if you have it on the extreme end like so  if you have like learning difficulties you're   taken away into a different class but that  has a lot of negative annotations at least   yeah yeah of course which is frustrating  because that's so important but yet   kids are going to bully for anything you know  what i'm saying yeah it's interesting because i   remember in private school people being taken off  for um special needs we had it for speech therapy   and i never knew where they were going i  was always just like where's that i'm off to   i never really got it um they didn't  really explain it that's probably best   for bullying classes yeah but then i i don't  feel like i was in a class that would have   been particularly cruel about it if they'd known  and maybe they did know maybe i was just really   oblivious but yeah i don't i don't personally  feel we should be holding people back because   it i see school as about so much more than just  numbers and retention and that stuff it's so much   more than that it's like little it's like a little  tiny society that you're learning to be part of   and so if you you know if i if i gave you right  we're in society and i want to find out how   good you are at using a mac and then you're not  very good at using a mac and so i take you away   from all your friends like that's just well  then you get good at a mac yeah and then you   don't have any of your friends anymore you have a  mac it's fine this is not sponsored by mac however   please if you have a different opinion uh or you  agree with luke or me leave a comment we can have   a discussion i just thought this is an interesting  topic because i couldn't believe they don't   hold kids back in the uk and there's no right  or wrong answer but i thought it was interesting   also states video is sponsored by nordvpn luke  you use nordvpn right yes uh nordvpn is great   use of my time as someone who's been staying in  different airbnbs the last five months so that   way no one in this place can steal my data or at  least look on the network and see what i'm doing   if they're pretty knowledgeable also allows me  to watch my netflix in the us where they have a   much larger i was gonna say suppository but that's  not the right word they have a larger selection i   think that's a better word bigger things up there  much bigger things on their flicks plus i believe   there's a massive holiday special on nordvpn so  if you have not used nordvpn yet why not sign   up with my link nordvpn.com or use code evan at  checkout get a giant discount on a two-year plan   get a month just come on ho ho ho sign up get your  protected security ho ho ho 24 7 customer support   anyway thanks nordvpn for sponsoring today's video  and like i said please leave me a comment if you   agree or disagree with me or luke and we can  have a little chat in the comments hopefully   this is the final video you will see from this  flat until i moved to my very own thanks for   all the support goodbye have a nice day goodbye  there's another video in the corner if you'd like

Channel: Evan Edinger

Views: 135,209

Keywords: held back, students, UK vs us, UK vs usa, british vs american, evan edinger, luke cutforth, evan, edinger, 2022, UK, usa

Id: 1DXImcfwYuQ

Length: 17min 55sec (1075 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 02 2022