Windrush Generation: The scandal that shook Britain explained and debated

fighting to be British the government claims it is acted to end the Windrush scandal but tonight our guests reveal the true depth of britain's hostile environment towards immigrants good evening you might think the government's spectacular u-turn yesterday on the Windrush generation has solved the problem they will now be able to get British passports free it should never have happened said the Home Secretary as she finally promised to fix it but why did she suddenly change her mind after months and years of ignoring the outrage and is Windrush a unique mistake caused by officials or was it the policy the political atmosphere a toxic racist undercurrents driven by public alarm over immigration and half the government's actually solved the problem or are there many scandals unfixed tonight we have gathered those directly affected some terribly so we've put them together with politicians leading thinkers and cultural commentators what does it say about us this Britain also tonight president macro becomes the first world leader to have a state visit to president Trump's White House they'll get that little piece of dandruff work amid the bonhomie can an unlikely bromance between these two lead the world toward peace and claim and counterclaim in the Cambridge analytic a data scandal as the company has a PR man to do the talking we are holding our debate here in the emmanuel center in the heart of Westminster it's been the scene of many civic and political meetings but we're here also because we hoped it meant that government ministers would find it easy to join us in fact we are literally across the road from the Home Office the government departments at the center of this whole scandal but the government has said it will not be joining us tonight however if there are ministers or others in that building over there who would like to cross the road and join our debate the invitation is still open so how did we get here let's look at some of the most striking images from this scandal unfolding [Music] we are human being I would not accept myself as a foreigner I'm not a foreigner this is my home it is hard to keep his your mind is it even easier if I've done something I feel feel hurt you know the pain is not gonna go away with a little sorry it's like they want to get rid of me I was going to miss my daughter's wedding but what can I look I couldn't know nothing I just had to accept it these people worked here for decades they paid their taxes enriched our culture they are British in all but legal status and this should never have been allowed to happen well we will be live-streaming tonight's debate please go to our website channel for calm forward-slash news and on social media please use the hashtag fighting to be British but let's get some opening thoughts tonight just 24 hours really after the Home Secretary said she had acted to solve this Joseph Bravo let me come to you because you were one of the first cases to get really major attention in in the media how do you feel tonight do you feel that your insecurity has been solved not really as this thing has been going on for about a week now and yet no one's really contacted me but the only thing I've been given I've given been given a contact number and a was it to go on do you come computer a custom email address that's all I've been given so now it's still up to me I've got to fight my own case still so you still don't know whether you'll gets all I know I've heard on the radio that's it what does that apply to me does that apply to everybody here I have no idea Nadine Robinson let me come to you just tell us what situation you're still in please I became for my brother Joe and I've been the main person trying to sort of resolve this since 2009 and although they're saying they're recognizing it now or thinker and they've known all along you know it's their government they know all the movements and to sort of minimize it to just saying it's an administration error you know these are human beings how can that be an error what did you think when you saw the news yesterday and you saw the Home Secretary saying this was a scandal that should never have happened well I think that it's just because it's been exposed it's always been a scandal and so I don't believe in any of that it's just because they've been put to shame and the whole country and not just here I've we've had comments from them coming straight from Jamaica there it's it's worldwide news now so they just wanna rectify it you you've probably done more than any other politician to put this on the agenda nationally is this salt have they done it no it's not solved it can't be solved because there are many other people beyond Caribbean people caught up in this nightmare who are part of a great Commonwealth there is still the whole business of how you repair the damage done to people's lives how do you compensate for the huge emotional losses and travesties and actually in the end this also leads to a much bigger discussion about a hostile environment in which you ask teachers doctors landlords to become the new border guards in our country and police people out of their own life that's a bigger question that still has to be answered okay well let's start to unpack this a little bit because it's not just the older immigrants from the Caribbean who have been caught up in this Windrush scandal some of their children and grandchildren have found themselves denied British citizenship to in a different context of course Theresa May wants lambasted people she called the of nowhere but how she in effect created such citizens of nowhere through her hostile environment policy our senior home affairs correspondent Simon Israel reports this was the British passport issued in st. Lucia - Helen Joseph she was 8 years old when she arrived in the UK as one of the wind rushing children you came over here in 67 so I'm living FEGLI that I remember them in the journey I think we took part plain Helen is very likely one of those cases which may qualify for the Home Secretary's promise of citizenship without cost but what about her British born daughters they too have been told in the past they don't qualify either I'm a student in Reading University I mean I have I also have my National Insurance number I have a job so it all points the ward to B being a British citizen but they tell me that I'm not allowed to claim that nationality okay do you feel British I do feel British because my I was born here but I seem to my don't because when I'm told I can't get a British passport even though I am British you feel like this it is upsetting in a way they became citizens of nowhere in 2006 when they planned a trip to the Caribbean island to see relatives as a family we were all supposed to go back there in the summer in July and so my mum tried to get passports for me and for herself as well because this one she has now obviously would have expired by then and that was when they kind of flagged us up and said that Nadine was never originally supposed to get a passport because my mum is not a British citizen so therefore when operate citizens Nadine's passport issued for an earlier trip was confiscated and she was told it was illegal to have it either have you been given a reason why you can't they always said it was because our mother's nationality was not British so this your mother arrived on the British passport from yes she did this part of the Windrush generations yes so how can that be I have no idea they never really explained it to us they just said to us that we're gonna give you indefinite settlement here but we're not really gonna they didn't help us really they just they gave us the visa and they just left us alone basically that's all they did before they gave us the visas when my mom tried to fight them on it they threatened to deport us did they yeah it was a it was quite scary I've been told because this was the time in the 2006 when just when they took me things possible that my mum was trying to obviously ask them why this is happening and that was when she just found out that after all this time she's been here they've never even seen her as a British citizen so it was a shock through it was upsetting and the whole family was worried that we were going to get sent away that fear has remained ever since they have no nationality they have avoided immigration partly because they can't afford the fees running into thousands of pounds to be recognized as British and partly the risk however small have been forced to leave I'm hoping that now will get it will be recognised that we need help so when if we get the help that we need then hopefully we can do it the right way because we've have been it's not that we haven't been like told ways that we can get passports we have so but it's just the fact that these always that we shouldn't have to do because we were born here already like in a way it's kind of hurtful because it makes you feel like you don't really belong anywhere and that's the question not for the Windrush children but for the generations that have followed in a country they feel they are not allowed to claim as their own well the home office told us tonight that the girl's mother seen in that report Helen Joseph is not the subject of any enforcement action and they're urging anybody who requires documentation to contact the dedicated helpline kenmoor you came to this country decades ago you served in the Armed Forces what do you think watching that report the children and grandchildren have you still affected I think it's a shame absolutely a shame because they didn't born anywhere else apart from Britain so why shouldn't they have a British passport why shouldn't they be British if you look at various situation with other people who born in this country get British passport ie they are not black so because of that you know I mean that's pure racism as far as I'm concerned more of a doorman sitting next to you your family is in a very similar situation yes your own son is effectively stateless yeah just explain that in 2008 we were asked to leave I was given 13 days to say when I was able to pay my fare to go back all right we will be deported when I get to Jamaica I was there for more than seven hours because they wouldn't let me and my son in the country so Jamaica doesn't see your son Jamaican Britain doesn't see so he was there he was there and he was five we went there when he was three he has not been registered as going to school because he was not allowed to be registered to go to school and people will be looking at you and saying well you will not Windrush generation but your husband who sadly is too ill yeah he came and also serves in the yes she did Jacob Riis mark when you hear these stories do you feel a burning injustice it's shameful I think there is a great equality of Britishness my family's lived in Somerset for the best part of a thousand years but that doesn't make me any more British than somebody who came over on the wind rush we are all equally British and we should all be treated in an equal way when we deal with institutions with the state and that our children should be treated equally and their Britishness should be recognized and that the state has done this that the homos office have done this is something we should all be deeply ashamed of it is terrible and in my own constituency the first person who came to see me about this issue was actually from Australia when was it is this was about a couple of years ago right so it is a problem that is wider than since you've known about this for two years I've known that was an issue how many speeches have you given about it I haven't because it was I only had one person come to me I didn't know that it was a more widespread issue I thought it was a one-off that somebody had come here in 1964 wasn't able to prove a continuity of residence and that was an issue era tried to help my constituent but northeast summer said is not a constituency that has a high level of immigration issues David Clemen every MP must have had these cases coming through their doors at some point well they're all coming out now the truth is a lot of people go underground they go underground because they're scared of being deported they go quiet because they're embarrassed that they haven't got a passport and people are working people and haven't got a lot of money so for those reasons they don't all contact MPs and I've had nine cases this morning the truth is now coming out about how people have been treated the question is though is it solved you know has the government Psaltis happy Providence do you feel that the government has solved this because going from my own experience which dates back since the 1960s of course I came here on a British passport I after a years working I sought a better life for myself and joined the forces the British Army I served in the Army throughout theatres in Europe Middle East Northern Ireland etc and comment out the end of my service I thought well this is time to make a move to secure more residency in this country I then tried to apply for a passport British passport almost all were that's not the case I have to first get a certificate of residency and I will have to pay for it now that really thought of my nose and I didn't intend to pay out whatsoever I made a fuss I absolutely refused but in the end I had to with a promise that the money would be before to me I cannot remember if it has been it's been such a long time ago but I am sure it didn't so you served you served we're in Northern Ireland I served another known and yes a few times where else where else did you serve in the Middle East Germany and Sharjah again it afforded only in the Middle East that sort of that sort of thing did it do to your sense of Britishness that you were being challenged in this way what it made me feel unwanted I didn't know where I belong I came from sin Vincent the British colony I arrived there Britain being British and then suddenly it seemed like I didn't belong and when you hear the Prime Minister apologize and the Home Secretary apologize and Jacob Riis marks saying this should never happened do you think they get it we say that I am it's a little too late this thing has been going on for quite some time what has forced them now to make that apology what had forced them known to do a u-turn these are some of the answers I would like to get even the air this evening check very small can you respond to that the reason there has been an apology and a u-turn is thanks to programs like this that have exposed it and the British people I think restricted everybody here is about this having happened it is such a deep disgrace and an apology is a beginning of a solution but it has to be solved in such a way as the people entitled to British passports get them with the normal passport application fee not with the requirement to produce endless evidence when they've lived here for 50 years but you're talking is this has really taken you by surprise you have no idea that this could happen I'd having a whole environment I knew as a one off with a constituent who had come to see me but no I had no idea I'm not a part of the Home Office and I'm not here representing no I got and I'm a backbench Member of Parliament and I think it is a crucial importance that the government deals with this as quickly as possible but I would add that this is a problem that goes back a long way that some of the cases we've discussed already you mentioned goes back to 2009 this is not a conservative or a labor problem it is a problem that has beset British administration and that makes it all the more urgent to put it right now clear the constant let me bring in just behind Jacob Riis MOG where do you think this problem came from I just think that it's just this whole thing is a reflection of how we are valued as immigrants because you know the thing is is that I just feel that it's constantly reinforced so we're not valued in this country and that we are not British even though people who came from the West Indies especially during that period of the winter I grew up as British we looked up to the Queen we knew our schooling everything was British so I just feel like we come here and it's a big slap in the face once again in 2080 shows I'm hurt I'm hurt you know what the thing is that racism is such an undertone of people like to swipe it under the carpet but it's hurtful it's just hurtful and I'm happy that has come out in the open but I'm not surprised David Lammy amber rod said this was a line of immigration policy that went back to labour and that this was not this government's fault this was a continuity of governments do you accept any responsibility from a labor perspective yes there's been a nasty race to the bottom it's been about numbers it's been about deportations and I'm afraid my party has also played some role in that that I think it's got more acute since the hostile environment but this is a long story and let me just be clear the link between this country and the Caribbean did not begin in 1948 with the wind rush all of us here of Caribbean descent are in this country and have this relationship in this country because our descendants were removed from Africa taken across the Atlantic and put in the Caribbean so and let's be absolutely clear the wealth of this country was on the back of that labor that is why it is such a scandal frankly that we now have to be and we were made British subjects we were colonized and made British subjects you cannot then 70 years after you asked us to come and help rebuild the country so once again our labor is used and then send us back across the ocean it is unacceptable absolutely unacceptable and of course people should be angry Dave a good hug why did it happen from your perspective because of legitimate public concern I can see why people are angry and a terrible mistake has been made and I think the Home Office is culpable its admitted as much and when it should have should have foreseen the fact that there were some historical groups who were legitimately here but would find it very difficult to prove that and they should be more proactive in looking out for that and also when the cases started piling up they should have seen a patent and reacted quick that's clear but there is a broader historical context which is about moving from we have had very high levels of immigration in this country about 4 million people have come to live here permanently just in the last 15 years there is a national consensus there is a consensus amongst ethnic minority Britons - but those numbers have been too high and we should bear down on them and bring them down somewhat so this we also and we should also control the system more we've moved from a very less a fair immigration system to a much more controlled one and some people have unfairly got caught up in the net of that greater control and we have also been trying to bear down on the much high levels of illegal immigration unfair was it deliberate because it what it looks like is that this was low-hanging fruit these were easy people to get rid of to get deportations up to get immigration numbers down I think it was a lack of historical memory in the department it was a tick spot tick box culture they clearly had been some you know brutal behavior on the part of some officials but the overall reason why that yeah as David said that that the kind of the border has had to come in is because it is very very difficult to deport people in this country we deported only 6,000 people against their will who were not offenders last year that is a very small number so governments have thought the read the way to down on illegal immigration is to make it more uncomfortable more difficult for illegal Eagle immigrants to survive by making people prove their status they want to rent a flat or or or buy a car or whatever but and that there is a we have it's nonsense because everywhere in the world when governments bear down all you do is you drive people underground you drive people into poverty and you create a class of undocumented people what it does and I'm sorry but what David is an example of someone who does not have to deal with the consequences of this pernicious policy never exposed to it apparently an expert on it but has never seen it face up we we have nearly 1 million Elita estimated we have about 1 million million illegal immigrants in this country illegally GLE immigration is a great scourge people who work in sort of semi slavery conditions and it's a scourge that particularly effects ethnic minorities in in inner-city Britain it is completely determined to try and bear down on it it is true that if somebody like me does not have to prove their status and it and it should be the case that something like me should have to prove my you were to get in that one came in 1961 taxes now I've been working the same school for the last 15 years and came a point where I became an issue when my hate child was changed it is written they found that I didn't have a biometric card to work so I was greeted by a member from HR telling me they have no rights to work I was illegal I shouldn't have the right to work and I lost my job I don't know how this could be what you're saying is the right way I mean yes things are not maybe people who likes talking about mistakes I'm sorry that's not what I'm here for why do you why do you why do you think it was I think people do things deliver that's the whole point and I think but the idea that it's due to a lack of historical memory in itself is a choice we choose not to educate the masses about the historical links between ourselves and Commonwealth and that in itself is gonna foster you know ignorant about why we're in this place at the moment if you don't remember we don't tell people you also serve in the services questions no that need to be asked is how did we get into this mess in the first place I know some people saying there's a conspiracy theory others have saying the other seat theory but what we should be asking ourselves how do we write this how do we get out of it how do we be math is better says it's done it's that's more than all here's how it see but government ready to be conservative or labor I've lived here for 60 odd years and this is not a problem that is being tested on the one government that we've had you know there will be people at home watching this going hang on a minute I saw the Home Secretary last night saying you're all gonna get British passports your children are all gonna get British passports what are you still complaining about question will be when will this happen will it happen government labor government Conservative government the coalition government they've all remembered a promise that the coalition a member of the Coalition made about student loan now when Williams when just recently in 60 years that I have over 60 years I've lived here mr. Lamie and I have had promises and promises and promises many of them different government many of them have never been active and so what we should want to know now because we you've said is people's lives let us put these people's lives back on track and take it off hold that it's in the moment I know that they've said they'll make changes now but I think what needs to be done and keep an eye on is 170 thousand signatures sign for that petition and it's still growing I think they should be thinking about doing an investigation into the whole debacle and also maybe look considered taking it to make it become an active of Parliament okay let's pause it there for a second because we have a report from Simeon Brown in Jamaica where Britain is recruiting nurses right now to alleviate NHS shortages history is repeating itself but Jamaicans say it's at their respective expense that's morning worship in Kingston's Christchurch Britain's colonial influences omnipresent and that was the official Church of Jamaica originally when Britain was you know in charge in Jamaica Britain the gift of religion remains so does the hangover of what they were given in return [Music] during this sugar hey there's we created the wealth that was written at that time in the nineteen forties they needed nurses they needed people to come and drive the brushes the public transport was I mean was manned by a Caribbean people from forced labor to migrant laborers today's sermons on the week's urgent news the wind generation many have been treated as illegal immigrants under new policy in this congregation there's anger if a person's perceived disrespect towards the relationship the Caribbean that only goes one way give us nothing with it Nolan becomes quite a sad situation British unfairness is the word from this minister of religion and Jamaica's Minister of Health says Britain continued to take from Jamaica by tapping its most important resource skilled workers like nurses we have given a lot and have felt that we have not gotten back in return a sort of commensurate level of benefits and a manifestation of that clearly has come out in terms of the winter rush issue at University Hospital at the West Indies if you thought Britain's needs the Caribbean Labor's in the past then on this ice de Ward there's a sense of deja vu history is repeating itself because so many of our nurses go they give their skills they give their young years when you are young and you have your vibrancy they give that to the motherland or the US or wherever I graduated in 2008 and my batch was about 80 plus nurses and I only know of about four persons who remain in Jamaica Jamaica's nurses have been targeted by recruiters from Britain to alleviate the shortage of NHS nurses but it's perpetuating a crisis here last week the government announced a nursing partnership of Jamaica but it will be in Britain so-called hostile environment will need to end there is a significant opportunity that could be had that could be mutually beneficial but it would depend on the UK adjusting their rules adjusting their immigration laws and providing the opportunity 70 years on from the wind rush and Britain is again leaning on its former colonies who want a more reciprocal relationship post brexit and believe Britain has forgotten their contribution well also joining me now from Jamaica is immigration lawyer Jennifer house and his works on many cases here and there just give us a sense of the scale of the problem how many people do you think are in Jamaica you know in limbo right good afternoon the difficulty is that the numbers are quite difficult to for someone to put a number to it the numbers are difficult to gauge what I can say is that I deal with at least 10 cases a year where people have come from the UK from the Windrush generation people in the over 55 who have come to Jamaica and been stranded here some have been lucky others not so so just for myself and I'm only just one person doing this a lot of times we get persons who have had their relatives in the UK dealing with tomato but certainly I can attest for at least a dozen cases a year that this is after and that it may sound low but it is actually extraordinarily high in and of itself so taken together we when you look at the figures we don't necessarily have statistics data that is formal we have no formal data but what I can say is we hear the numbers going out there and the 50,000 that is being spoken of some of those people are certainly persons who have come out of that into Jamaica Jennifer Houseman thank you very much indeed well we have some nurses from Jamaica in the Caribbean in our in our audience tonight she'll Gregory let me come to you I mean when you think about what has happened how do you feel about Britain going to recruit nurses in Jamaica today in fact see was that we've made for the circle to what happens in post 1948 where nurses were invited here to build the new NHS my concern is when we recruit nurses from the Caribbean quite often that they recruit the recruit these will be the most skilled how who are going to be looking after the patients in the Caribbean when they're depleted of the cream of the crop about you what is it it might be a good thing for the nurses coming but as I think I'm thinking about here when they do come here would they be part of the system the and they will be possibly encouraged by coming because of the financial status but would they be given it would be a Jamaican passports to it because what we've been saying tonight is that this is not just about the Windrush generation ashang care you are also well you've you're facing deportation right now I've been in the UK since I was 12 and I came to join my dad who was heavily depressed at the time by mixing the application and Home Office refused me on certain grounds when I found out about my immigration around age 18 and started to find in it they didn't deem it my dad sickness as a what you could you know a compassionate to grant me my stay here I am NOT 28 and I'm still fighting it about couple weeks ago other able to go to university able to go to Universal world not properly or anything like that so you came here as a choice it's idea you can't do anything I can't do anything and I've lived there for most of my life more there's a rule in the home office if you've been here off of your life between 18 and 25 they would give you compassionate leave but the case record told me I missed that by 11 months 11 months they did they rejected my application and 11 months 11 months and you weren't able to go to your own mother's funeral no my mom died last year in Jamaica and I couldn't go because I just made in another application of mm power and odd and I was able to go to my mom's funeral because my application is in the Home Office which they took one year to send when did you get the deportation letter about two weeks ago and they gave me 14 days to appeal and your dad dad is still with us and but then he lives here he lives he unless something you go yeah they said that my dad can visit me in Jamaica and they're not taking this illness into consideration this is not covered by what amber rod in the house comes our there are more of them so Jacob lease multi do you think cases like this are as compassionate today those so deserve action they need humane treatment you need in any system a degree of discretion say that obvious injustice is can be avoided and somebody who has lived in this country from the age of twelve to twenty eight sixteen years out of twenty eight years it seems to me obviously as a case where compassion should be exercised and this is where political leadership ought to be given to the Home Office we have to have an immigration system we have to decide who can come and who can't but cases like this one are just so unfair and sad and wrong because if the Home Office had deported somebody after a year or something that different but somebody has spent more than half their life in the country doesn't that tell you that the Home Office hasn't managed you're surprised again by that kind of story I think it I'm less surprised by this kind of story I think we've seen more of this unfortunately we have seen elderly ladies who've lived in the country for a very long time grandmothers who suddenly are going to be deported and this gets into the news and it's where discretion is important because we need a system that allows the humanity of individuals to be taken into account is not just a bureaucratic tick box system and I think the problem with the Home Office is that is how it operates and that's why you got into the wind rush problem and the problem for other Commonwealth citizens as I mentioned the lady who came to see me from was from Australia because it doesn't take into account the discretion and the compassion of individuals briefly David let me if you will I'm just slightly frustrated with this emphasis on the home office as if it's some sort of huge power that has nothing to do with the government of the day just ask the people in this room about the fees alone the general public have no idea of the thousands and thousands of pounds it costs to make these applications every year there's no other area of public life when you applied for driving licence apart that requires huge fees for poor people that's going on every single day in our country okay thank thank you for that I mean as we've seen Britain's relationship with migration has often being a troubled one Michael Creek reports now on how we win from open arms for Commonwealth migrants to targets in the tens of thousands and a hostile environment the flow began after the war they came to work in British hospitals and on the buses indeed the post-war Nationality Act in theory entitled 800 million people across the Empire a quarter of the world's population to come here tens of thousands did so often invited so in 1962 McMillan's conservatives in set new rules for Commonwealth immigrants the immigrant must have a job to come to but this ITN film from a street in Smith ik showed the growing tension it here that the whites have banded together and look as though they'll persuade the conservative controlled Council to halt the colored invasion up to six years ago Marshall Street was all white like the ad say shining white then in 1958 a Jamaican mr. Sandt Albin Henry moved in at number 85 in 1960 the old lady at number 37 across the road died houses owned by whites were bought by blacks and Asians and always it colored people who move in whites who move out things that we've seen I'm doing the streets as regards of entering the chambers in the gutter they was but the children the pavement to do the business the white people in this street say that the West Indians are unsanitary in their habits true that's what life as White's marched against immigration Enoch Powell delivered his rivers of blood speech we must be literally mad the Wilson Labor government imposed tougher curbs against Kenyan Asians despite protests it has always been known that British government is fair and just it appears at the moment that all the fairness and justice which they have always promoted has completely vanished I want to see that the whole Kampala Street is not full of Indian when Idi Amin's through the Asians out of Uganda the Tory Heath government took in 30,000 to Britain for three decades after that immigration wasn't really a big political issue till the numbers shot up under New Labour if we take the 50,000 a year the 15,000 a year in that 50-year post-war period it comes out on average of 30,000 a year alright that man under Tony Blair becomes within a decade nearly three hundred thousand a year nearly ten times what the post-war average had been Ferraris party seized on the issue hazing the road to brexit and it was a huge mistake for labour to dismiss public concerns says a man who advised to labour PM's this not listening which I think was quite understandable in the Labour Party in 60s and 70s but later was not it was a serious political mistake by the Liberal leadership of the Labour Party this is a Labour mug from the 2015 election which caused leader Ed Miliband huge grief with his party labour did talk tough for a while making controls one of their five pledges and as David Cameron try to cut net migrations to tens of thousands morning Vince Cable threatened to quit the coalition over foreign students immigrations being an issue of tensions and contradictions which mainstream politicians have often avoided maybe no more well our underlying question tonight has been whether the Windrush scandal has been a one-off mistake or whether it's really opened the lid on something much deeper let me bring in some piercing from the Joint Council for the welfare of immigrants I mean how many other cases are there that aren't covered by amber rods dispensation yesterday that would break people's arse there are so many untold stories we see it every day thousands of people every day have their lives ruined by a policy that and with all respect to David in the front there isn't about managing migration like any other policy area it's about looking tough on migration whatever the cost whatever the evidence says we have people who are separated from their families people who died in detention centers I think whatever people's opinion is on immigration the British public over the last couple weeks have been quite frankly shocked by what immigration control means people don't want to see how the sausages are made and the truth is coming out now a Madrid first let me bring you in because you're not from a Commonwealth country from Egypt no yes I am what's your situation well the last job was trying to do a check up on me and the home office sent it back negative I mean it's a reference number you boot it and the computer will bring everything on me I shouldn't be in second I shouldn't have been sent he was searching the job because of the whole environment office asked my employee to set me on the spot emotional immigration stasis I've got indefinite to remain since 1981 so it was just a screw-up well the home office said now that it's a an arrow and they will correct it but unfortunately I just just said they've been in an interview they refused to take me because they need to see something clear at the government ask them called per metric card or the British when you won't get any compensation under this new scheme let me come to catch a wit like because you're looking forward with the concerns of all the EU migrants who are here and worried about what happens after breakfast yeah exactly the way that people are treated that come legally in this country and have been British subjects as well is kind of worrying for EU migrants especially pause brexit the home office and the hostile environment since 2012 I've tweaked the rules 57 times which means every time they make the rules some people are falling through the cracks what we doing in the 3 million for protecting the rights of 3.6 million EU Nationals post brexit is to make sure that we have a status protected for life by an independent court after 8 years because at the moment is not for life it's only for 8 years under the European Court of Justice and with everything happening at the moment we're not feeling secured very good ha let me comment I mean much of your argument is based on what British people think do you feel you may have actually misjudged that at all no not at all I mean I know lots of Caribbean people they have long complained to be about the vast number of East Europeans who've been coming in in recent years there is a very broad consensus that we need to bring the numbers down obviously we'd need to do it in a humane way and we then clearly I mean I think we're in danger here of describing exceptional cases as the norm there clearly are far too many of them and I can understand anybody here got a problem with Eastern European immigration some people around you ok let me let me just hit back let me just let me just reply to David Lammy and the gentleman in the back row the idea that this is about racism that it's about discriminating against black people well can I just remind you that the three main groups that are deported from this country are all white European countries Romania Albania and Poland are the top three groups of deportation there is no African or Caribbean country in the top five now in the long run all of this will be sold because in 10 or 15 years time we will all have ID cards or some kind of digital identity so we will not have these anomalous cases and that is what is going to happen with the Europeans they are going to have a unique digital identity the three million and that that'll be a that'll be a trial run I think for the rest of us as well and I think we can sort these things is easy right Jacob Riis park I could not be more strongly opposed to identity cards and I think the problem with the hostile environment is that it's fundamentally on British a British citizen gain lawfully about his or her business ought not to have to prove why he or she is doing what he or she is doing that's been one of our most ancient and historic liberties and we ought not to give that up and the issue here is in fact the competence of our border controls the reason things have been handed to employers to landlords to banks is because we haven't actually known who is in the country legally and illegally and that goes back to the administration why they need my green card ID cards change the relationship between the individual and the stage and they mean that we would all have in this section of the of the discussion to the man we first high license on Channel four News Anthony Brian who's here I mean how are you feeling tonight after listening to this discussion and about what the home secretary said yesterday well I'm still baffled by delphinium just seems like India in disorder Diaz Basilica and pick out those bad bad sleeping in a room and I'm just still lost with all this I can't even clear my head because you don't feel reassured that's clear no way it's all more weird no way at all remember I'll bring antigens to enough two and a half years they're sending me ran all over the place to look for father he knew I couldn't find this right and also 52 years I mean son I'm born here I'm being there for 33 years my dad has paid his taxes and like people say that it's a unique case he the gentleman in front said that there's free countries that that they deport back to you but were those countries invited here we were invited here that's that I want you to understand that that's a strong case we were invited here and we've never been told go home whom to wear well thank you all very much indeed for now I'm going to pause it there because in fact that's all for here on the program but you can continue watching this debate because we're going to carry on for the next 20 minutes or so on channel 4 comm forward-slash news to do go to the website after the break John we'll have the rest of the day's news but from everyone here at the Emmanuel Center in Westminster for now thank you for watching [Music] right so we can carry on now are we we are we on we're streaming and I'm hoping we're still still alive I want to come to the to the back row because last year long didn't you had your hand up and I sorry I didn't have time to get to you I was gonna say I'm an immigration lawyer I've been an immigration lawyer for 20 years and this is the most appalling thing that I have seen in my 20-year career so to your point it is a catastrophe and it's something that needs to get fixed your story unfortunately it happens literally weekly and and it happens on a regular basis and it is awful and I think one of the things that I wanted to say as well was that is you can say you're still liable to backdate people's rights to British citizenship she talks about giving them a passport but is she going to recognize that they were entitled to that possible in 1952 or in 1962 saying that she's going to give it to them nail is you know it's good and it's positive but is she gonna look and backdate that in relation to the compensation elements of things how is she going to quantify that how is she going to quantify the emotional distress and damage that so many people have gone through and I think those are the details that people need to know about Jacob and David I don't know whether you're surprised to be wasting if you need to go I do understand thank you very much indeed but if you can stay Thank You Jacob to come in on yes what you're saying about this sort of not relating to racism in the UK I would sort of contest that I reckon if you think the hostile environment policy was you know as you put it created and response to people's societal concerns about immigration in the UK who are the visible immigrants to the UK they're not necessarily people who are from Eastern European backgrounds the people who look like us you know we're the people who people see on the streets and they're like oh they're taking over it's not gonna it's not gonna be the white people so I don't really understand how you could not make the connection between racism I do understand that and I think it is one of the problems you know everybody has agreed we want to minimise illegal immigration well almost everybody wants to do that and I accept there is a problem I mean given how hard it is because we are actually a very liberal country it is very hard to deport people therefore governments have said both labour and Tory governments have said right we need to make life uncomfortable for people who are illegally so they will self-deport now I absolutely accept there is a problem here in that you know as David pointed out earlier if you have having to prove your status it's going to mean mainly people who do not look or sound like members of the ethnic majority who are going to be mainly the people who will be asked now and that is that isn't a problem I absolutely accept that and that is why everybody you know in the NHS in you know in the various bureaucracies needs to check everybody including me so that there is equal status of status proof as it were I mean that is the only way in which we can work in which we can combine fairness with bearing down on illegal immigration that's all a lot I always have with this discussion is that when you talk about illegal immigration in that sort of abstract sense you're not you know this was an illegal immigrants who had to self-deport she's called Marva doorman you know she's not an argument she's a person and she had a baby and she had to self-deport because her choice was to be deported if she'd been deported it would have been that much harder to challenge her immigration status she had to self-deport because she wasn't married at the time all sorts of hard and exceptional cases no I'm saying that the argument around illegal immigration is but carry is carried out in this sort of rather sterile atmosphere in which you talk about illegal immigrants as if they are not people that is typical it's actually fixed David because your emphasis is on illegal immigration yeah this is a conversation about immigration it's about people who are migrants to this country many of them are legal you know talk about people being deported from Eastern Europe the vast majority of them have come through the EU they're here legally but they're here legally so this isn't about illegal immigration this is legally you yeah that's what the hostile environment is about the illegal immigration I mean it's clear that the Windrush case is about listening the hostile environment is about persecuting people Xiamen Lovegrove disagreeing I am this is what you're forgetting also is that this hostile environment also transcends to second third fourth generation and in my work in publishing not 0.2% of people of color this transcends in every area of our cultural life in our landscape outside of just like what when you're talking about illegal our grandparents weren't illegal they were absolutely here legally because as David said because of the slave trade because of the Commonwealth and now we are seeing that we are treated differently as the white Commonwealth to the brown Commonwealth and the way in which that's that transcends itself and daily like what you're shaking your tell you why you don't get to do that because because we fight on a daily basis for our equality a second third and fourth generation so this racism is there every single day and to tell me you're talking about nothing there is not racism in this country well I would like to point out I would like to point out the biggest single group of people who had turned away at the border are Americans yeah the idea that the Home Office is out to deport black people because somehow they don't like black people planes going back to Jamaica for years yeah we've been watching this happening for years this is no surprise I've been the Green get into the top ten of countries the measure is detain is being detained the measure is being not being able to work the measure is not getting a pension the measure is the NHS it's not solely deportation David and when she says the Commonwealth what she really means is where are the Australians in this room where the Canadians where are the Indians where of the Hindu or Sikh Indian I want to bring in Vince mcbean who has also served in the armed forces just hang on because we are still we're still recording and was still going out live on the Internet Vince McBean you were trying to get you know what point you want to make there's a couple of points there was an impact assessment done to ascertain which group the measures taken by the government which group was going to affect and mysteriously it wasn't signed off but yet the policies have been implemented you have somebody like myself who's been in the forces we've been medically discharged because I got injured on active duty and then I don't see through a treaty people from Europe who we fought against can now come over here and benefit from all the hard work that we've put in my brother had to application turned down cannot come into this country yet we was a British colony you know so how does that all that way up and what are we meant to think when we contributed so much and this is the return how did it weigh up for you other did that mean that you were Pro breaks it because of that or because that's what happens to some people wasn't it well what well the irony of it all I had to pay ninety pounds to get naturalized to get the British passport that's after I got injured on active service so that's this these are when I hear about you know compassionate and you know these are just small these issues are just one offs and so forth it's nowhere near the real issue that's we are going through because day on day we have to find our corner he wants to speak yes because the gentleman was saying about being Depot illegal immigrants I wasn't illegal when I was I wasn't an illegal immigrant when I was told to leave I had a baby who born at eleven weeks six days early all I was doing was caring for my child but when I put in my application I was told to go so the college yes nobody consideration I get there in Jamaica I had nowhere to stay I was a standing outside thinking where am I gonna sleep tonight so they don't get to say who is legal and who is legal where you stay and where you don't get sending you back to Jamaica where are you going to leave I was offered two thousand pounds to go but if I had took that two thousand pound me or my child wouldn't be back here my husband has to work jobless Eve seven days a week to get us back here and we still have to pay one thousand twelve phone to naturalize my child and he was born here story where you have kids huh getting naturalized and their parents has to pay that amount of money and their British citizen with breeches birth certificate in the country it's not fair at all and nobody's speaking up nobody's speaking up I know but and Home Office talk about doing things the right way they're not doing things the right way actually they're burdening a little child who was born here parent to pay one thousand two hundred that's unfair you see what's striking to me about this is that we didn't have to try very hard to put this audience together it was very very easy to find an audience of people who had either been victims of injustice or new people and that suggests that this problem is right there right under our noses I think we should avoid trying to get into this this tract that David at the front is trying to lead us down where we divide ourselves between people of color who were opposed to Europeans Europeans who are worried about people of color who come over here because ultimately we're all subject at the same at the end of the day to the same Home Office which is which is not taking the issue of irregular migration seriously it's taking the issue of the Tories looking tough at the new Kipp seriously the chief inspector of borders himself in his reports has said that the hostile environment policies have not unlikely to not lead to significant increases in the number of voluntary departures he said that there are no measures in place to monitor their effect so the Home Office has no intention of monitoring whether these measures are working they're there to look tough and it's eight years later honestly didn't expect that they'd still be in government having to deal with the consequences of the mess that they put in place eight years ago because I don't think it's helping anybody by dividing you know people by nationality race and things like that we all subject to that even people that came here legally status you change all the time you can be legally here I do a lot of overseas work treatment found recruitment like in work for a union we recruit overseas nurses and when they come they've got a visa then sometime they need to review the visa then they come here legally but sometime it could happen that this status change between legally illegal and things like that it's thinking that the status is just static is complete nonsense you know and we need to stop lie is thinking it's the same for Europeans at the same time a lot of European countries don't allowed your nationality a lot of Spanish can't have your nationality then what do you want them to do to be able to here to stay here under Santos traitors things will change and what they will be deported it's not a simple thing we need to you right around that there's no you know we need to be stronger and work together David did you think there is a sense in which as more of these stories come to light now and there's I mean you know there's an atmosphere there's an app there's an appetite in some of the media not all the media to air these stories that we will start to perhaps change the tone of the conversation on immigration I'm hopeful look I've been hopeful before I thought after Grenville we might change the tone on conversations around justice and housing and I'm not sure it has but I think the British public have not seen the reality of some of this policy they've not seen the reality of some of the theory that we're hearing from from from David so there is no area of life for David or indeed for I where I pay 1,200 pounds to the state for an act I just don't doesn't cut arise in my life and I think the British public are hearing these sorts of fees this extortion money for people who haven't got a lot of money and there are big questions about is that really fair never mind the detaining a little more so I hope it leads to a and it's not that of course you have to control your boys you know you can't have open borders we all accept that of course you need to think hard about who is illegal but what we're hearing is that this is this is a ramping up of rhetoric and I believe it's about frankly a pandering to a very hard right rhetoric in this country and it's say and it's asking a whole load of people to police people out of their lives that's what and the Windrush I think because because in a sense in terms of modern immigration we are as West Indian Caribbean people the oldest community people are beginning to see through our lens what is happening to a wider group of people that's that's my hope I mean I don't know where this two-party political but I mean is there any hope being offered by your party there I mean your party is too also you know mired in a scandal over how it deals with anti-semitism you know does it provoke any confidence when it comes to what how it would deal differently with well when you admit yourself that new labor started down a lot of this path we currently have a leader we have a shadow home secretary and people like me that voted against the that led us to this place we have not here heard out of the labor party that kind of tough on control immigration I was very disappointed with those silly mugs that Ed Miliband put out two three years ago so the rhetoric at least has changed but let me be clear where I disagree with David there's been this tendency on the right to divorce immigration from race they're two separate things we you know race we're all war or liberal now we're all not in here we all get on we've got black friends we got Keira P let's get David language to review on race race and immigration go hand in hand and that's what this demonstrates as far as I'm concerned to separate out immigration and issues of racial justice partly because of the great inflow after 2004 from Eastern Europe and I think that that has improved the debate it is not that they are two separate issues and I think we are you know in we we are one of the bigger issues here is that we we have historically been a very low documentation Society we we've never been as Jacob was saying we've nism it's not part of our tradition to have ID cards and so on and we are gradually Crabbe wise moving towards being a much more documented Society partly because of anxieties at all ethnic groups share about about the social fluidity about not knowing whether people have these entitlements or not so as I said earlier in 10 years time it'll be fine but I think you're far too pessimistic Racing this country we have a huge and growing multi-ethnic middle class we have a huge and growing mixed-race population the biggest proportionately in Europe are these not success stories as well I'm saying racism is persistent I'm not saying it's going away and that he wants to come in the government freddied the majority of because they would not have had to fill in those cards anyway as people who had come here from 48 to 62 they were not regarded as aliens the people who filled in those cards were aliens in the terminology of the time so you would not have filled in those cards and even if you had it would not have proved your permanent status red herring the whole car it's a complete red herring you would not have filled in one of those cards because we weren't aliens because you were you would assume to be you were British it is a historic mistake in 1971 how do we lose all given it not all of you here but but but Caribbean and indeed everybody else be people from other Commonwealth countries there was a there was a blanket decision everybody who had been here up until 1971 was given indefinite leave to remain the problem was because we then lived in a very low documentation society lots of people particularly Windrush people never got the documentation to then prove it okay so that when the when the hostile environment comes in in you know in well I would actually started on the labor in the late 90s and early 2000s that we then become a more documented Society and lots of people snared in this net they don't have the ability to prove the reality which is that they have they aren't here legitimately but they can't prove it I'm coming to it we're coming to the end now I just want to hear from the you know people who feel they haven't had a chance yet yes I'm sorry I about this documentation that really don't document things yet still 18,000 documents were found from the mom all right him okay now I'm dealing now with the Commonwealth citizens that came here or will rush there were passengers were not invited here they came here because there was a need they could see a labor gap in the 50s when it was debated in Parliament that about getting labor here and the King also pointed out the shortage of skilled labor here we were invited my parents were invited here I came here in 57 and my dad pointed out and this is why someone mentioned about conspiracy theory he says don't be too comfortable here because there will come a time where we will all be taken off the streets and be deported all right so all my life I've waited for that to happen so I've waited and my children who were British they were born here so they're British and I'm saying to them you are British because you're born here no way would you they accept you back in the Caribbean as Jamaican or embodied in always Indians so when we're talking about this citizenship is to define what was debated in Parliament in 1950s within a hostile environment then and it's followed through to now it's only that it was covered it's new for many of the people in this room a hostile environment has been a persistent part of the black story when I came here in the early 50s it was the time I lived in in Dalston it was the time many have mentioned not in this room tonight of the no blacks no dogs no high-rises that we had moved forward list in which our conversation tonight I think we blasted well have not moved well on that on that rather pessimistic no thank you very much indeed thank you all very much indeed for coming for sharing your stories and for engaging with each other thank you David as well for taking on the argument we're going to leave it there you can carry on this argument the fighting to be British argument on our social media channels and and this whole program will be put together to view on YouTube in one lot before long but until the next time thank you very much indeed [Applause]

Channel: Channel 4 News

Views: 376,756

Keywords: channel 4 news, channel 4, windrush, windrush scandal, windrush generation, windrush deportation, windrush debate, david lammy, david lammy windrush, jacob rees mogg, jacob rees mogg interview, what is windrush generation, what is windrush scandal, windrush migrants, what is windrush, windrush explained, explained, news today, news live uk, news documentary, news headlines, watch live, live, news

Id: izsLi-FB5Fg

Length: 70min 55sec (4255 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 24 2018