No Backsliding On Brexit

hello I'm Zanna badal we welcome to the Immanuel Center in the heart of London for this intelligence squared debate of when we will be discussing a very difficult issue that indeed does go to the very heart of the brexit debate engulfing the UK our motion is no backsliding on brexit Britain should prioritize controlling its borders over staying in the European single market now you know after that historic referendum result in June British politicians have been grappling with what is arguably the most complex political challenge of our lifetimes yet there is little consensus on what brexit should actually mean and then there are voices powerful ones from within the EU who warn British politicians that they won't be able to dictate the terms of brexit in any case and we have an excellent panel representing all those views for you arguing for the motion douglas Carswell the only MP for you kip the UK Independence Party which of course firmly backed brexit alongside him is the veteran professor of economics Patrick Minford who also advised Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher on economic policy against the motion is the former Conservative Minister for business and a soupery and with her bringing an EU perspective is Alexander sturb who until last year was the prime minister of Finland so that is our panel welcome to you all panel let me tell you what's going to happen we're going to hear from our four panelists before the motion - against and then after that I'm going to open the debate to the floor first of all let us have our opening statements from the panelists and speaking first for the motion yes please douglas Carswell do you go no back sighting on brexit Dundas Carswell now Douglas you resigned as a Conservative MP in 2014 and then you stood immediately successfully for you get the UK Independence Party and you said that one of the main reasons why you entered politics was so that Britain could leave the EU so please do give us your own opening statement on the motion thank you brexit means leaving the single market we were always very clear about that in the referendum it's what people voted for and I think it would be profoundly wrong to pretend otherwise but if we were to remain in the single market we would be bound by a whole range of public policymaking by officials within the institutions of the EU rather than those at home it would preclude the possibility of us being able to enter into those trade deals and take back control of our trade policy which was one of the fundamental reasons why we argued to leave the European Union but leaving the single market does not mean not having access to the single market and this is an absolutely fundamental point to make now the title of this debate this evening invites us to see a post brexit settlement in terms of immigration or trade now I happen to think that's a false choice the idea that you must accept free movement of people as a precondition to be able to trade is simply not so I I happen to have here to make sure that i roughly stick to the time an iphone an iphone designed in california with chips from japan assembled in china with software from india and you know what we don't have free movement of people with any of those countries in fact we don't have free trade it's for those countries which is part of the problem of being in the EU of course we need to be able to control our borders but as I found a member of that leave as you keeps only MP a hundred percent of the UK parliamentary party as someone who's campaign to leave the European Union for twenty years I can tell you we are not looking to close our borders I personally would like to see an arrangement that means we have what you might call the free movement of workers not the free movement of people now the Maastricht Treaty conferred on every person in the European Union the idea of EU citizenship that will go for ponder the implications of free movement of workers rather than free movement to people and many of the arguments on the other side begin to melt away we're not going to have the idea of free movement of workers as part of a deal but because it is in our interest as a country to have the brightest and the best from around the world to come here this is about independence it's not about ending interdependence and the two are not mutually exclusive trade doesn't happen because of official Fiat it happens because people in different countries want to buy and sell from one another the key to leaving the European Union the prize that comes from leaving the European Union is to conduct our own free trade agreements and that means leaving the single market now immediately after it happened immediately after the referendum many people said it can't possibly work you're not going to get a deal well the rest of the European Union has a massive trade surplus for this country but some seventy billion a year it's not going to be in their interest to restrict cross-channel trade from which they today are the principal beneficiaries there are no restrictions on that trade today I can't see them putting those restrictions in place and now today we have in the white house like him or not a president who supports the idea of brexit the same pundits who covered the recent American elections often suggest that we are skeptics of backward-looking old-fashioned retro well if we were so backward looking in retro how come we're not fading away but we're now the majority view in this country maybe it's the European Union that is a of 1950s ways of thinking they imply that somehow those of us who want to leave the European Union are anti Europe or anti-european we're not we're anti the idea of the European Union of bureaucratic construct they claim that we're against internationalism and cooperation absolutely not the referendum result was placed no side can claim to have a blank check we need a new consensus we need to accept that we're leaving the European Union and we need to recognize that if we do that we can still be good friends and neighbors to cooperate with the European Union thank you thank you next arguing against the motion is Anna Sabri now Anna conservative P you are a very vociferous campaigner for Britain to remain a member of the EU in the run-up to the June referendum and you recently co-founded the Open Britain campaign calling for the UK to keep its membership of the single market and until this summer you were the business minister so please do argue against the motion well thank you very much indeed and ladies and gentlemen here in the hall you'll forgive me that I'd like to just address them in many ways the many tens of millions of people across the world who will hear much of this debate and make it very clear to them this country is very much still an open country that welcomes people whatever the color of their skin whatever their faith or their race so let's now turn to the emotion that's in front of you there'll be no backsliding on brexit and I say that as you know as somebody who was a fierce fierce believer in our remaining within the European Union we have to honor the vote that was taken on tomb the 23rd but I also want to say this because it's really important you all of you that took part in that vote on June the 23rd will remember that there was actually one question on the ballot paper and that question was do you want to us to stay remain or leave the EU there were no sub-clauses to that there were no other questions on the ballot paper about well do you understand single market do you want more sovereignty do you want fewer immigrants do you want to control our borders it was a simple straightforward remain or leave the European Union and as we know 52 percent of those people who voted voted remain sorry voted leave 52 percent if only it had been the other way around sadly it was not 52 leave 48 remain it's right that we should now debate how and what on what terms we leave the European Union but we should be tread very carefully if we try to say that the majority of people that voted voted to control immigration because you see Douglass's view of leaving the EU was very different I would suggest than the leader of or the acting leader of his party because whether Douglas likes it or not it was Nigel Faraj who you may remember who stood in front one of the one of the darkest days in our nation's politics who stood in front of a poster of a long line of people fleeing from terror and from war seeking sanctuary somewhere else and he said that that's what the EU was all about he was playing to the basest of all prejudices looking at people on the color of their skin of the race or their religion as opposed to addressing the real issue so let us also be very clear about this we do control our borders you may have been abroad recently you may have traveled overseas out of our country and you remain remember that when you returned into our country you had to show your passport and every year thousands of people are refused entry into our country so we do control our borders and of course the other thing that we do is we control migration by the fact that overwhelmingly the majority of people who come to our country come here to work so I welcome immigrant workers into our country because they come here to work and I believe they add to the rich diversity of our country and they have done for centuries and we should celebrate that so that is the case that I would make for why we should have the free movement of Labor and indeed people it is about work but it's also about that free movement of ideas so the benefits of the single market ladies and gentlemen as we now leave the EU we would be absolutely mad in my opinion if we were to toss away the ship of the single market our supply change like you saw with Nissan they rely on that free movement of goods so that we can do trade and without our membership of the single market we will fall back on tariffs and that will mean that our Ark the goods that we make in this country will cost far more and when we sell them into the European Union and that means in short that people won't buy them and that means that we will not have the strong economy we have so it's in our financial interests ladies and gentlemen not just for my generation but for our children and our grandchildren we stay a member of the single market thank you very much indeed our second speaker for the motion is Patrick Minford now you are professor of Applied Economics at the Cardiff Business School in Wales and you are one of the top economists Patrick in favor of brexit stating that the UK would be better off pursuing free trade deals and controlling its own migrant labor policy thank you very much that happened good evening ladies and gentlemen it seems to me the vote was pretty simply to leave the European Union in order to become a sovereign state which I take it to be the object of brexit then I think we have to start with the economics and remember that a sovereign state also rules the economy we are not ruled by another state with its economic ideas about how we should do business we we we rule ourselves and the economics has always been central in this debate and what was the economics of leaving the European Union what was the European Union doing that made so many of us want to leave it I think there were three things first of all its protectionist it it levies huge barriers to trade worth about 20 percent on both food and manufacturing through the so called customs union and Common Agricultural Policy the second thing it did it had a very intrusive regulative system regulating all aspects of our economic and indeed Sparta wanting to regulate more of our political life in order to achieve the objects apparently of the single market so the regulatory cost of EU are very serious and that was an another big reason now the third big reason concern control of our borders now people say you know there's a lot of talk about how people who want a control board is apparently racist and so on according to Anna but I don't think this is about race at all or anything to do with you know intolerance it's a theme that goes back a long way in economics that you have to control your borders if you have a welfare state in order for people who are unskilled who can't contribute very much to your economy gaining a lot of welfare from your welfare state and actually we did a calculation that unskilled immigrants from the EU of whom there are about 1.2 million of whom about a million or adults cost the British taxpayer each year three and a half thousand on average and so what you have is it as a big third reason and who paid these bills it was the poorest people in our country where an unskilled immigrants settled and this was a gross injustice and of course it was an important cost to it to the people who voted for brexit now how are we going to achieve brexit given that these are the costs well there are two ways to do it one is to do the so-called soft brakes in which Anna Anna Sabri favors which is basically you don't leave the EU basically you just stick around in a single market with all these things that we we don't like happening no control over our laws no control over our skilled immigration how can that be what the people wanted how can it be consistent with a vote and how can it be optimal given that we still got all the same costs that we had before that we didn't want no there's only one way to leave the EU to become a sovereign state if you have to leave these institutions you have to leave the single market you have to leave the protectionism and you have to abandon the free immigration the lack of control all those things I talked about if you're gonna leave leave and that means leaving all these things that cause costs including the single market the customs union you have to go to free trade now the last thing I want to say is this do we need to do a deal with the European Union selling into the single market the answer is no there's a world market out there in which everybody can sell and the UK is no exception we have a small country we sell in millions of markets around the world we don't need any trade agreements really only other country and yes as douglas Carswell ahead has said an outward-looking migratory control a green card system but one that is intelligent in terms of controlling the costs of welfare of the people who enter our country and making sure that they don't batten down on poor people are in our country thank you very much indeed Patrick Minford so now the last of our opening statements and speaking against the motion is Alexander Stubb who until last year was prime minister of Finland but Alexander you've also had extensive experience across several government departments until this summer you are Minister of Finance and previously you've been Minister of Foreign Affairs and European affairs and trade but you also have a personal connection to the United Kingdom because your wife is British isn't she that's right that's my claim to fame my starting point before I make my three points is that I find it almost paradoxical that I have to stand here in probably the most international country in the world to make one of the most difficult arguments for why we as nations should cooperate this is after all the country which in my mind has created the recipe of success based on three things number one democracy number two free markets and number three globalization and right now this country is unfortunately on the verge probably to try to reject a few of those thesis let me make my three points of why we should all vote against the emotion here today the first one is I think a soft brexit it's the best way to go about it and I will do everything in my power to try to make the transition towards brexit as soft as possible I think it will take three phases phase number one is from the referendum to the initiation of article 50 whenever that may be face number two is the actual negotiation of approximately two hundred thousand pages of secondary legislation it is not going to be very easy to just dismantle 40 years of UK membership in the European Union this will be extremely complicated from a legal perspective it'll be very complicated from a political perspective and it will be economically complicated as well face number three is what we should start focusing on and that is the future relationship over the United Kingdom with the European Union if we go for a hard and abrupt better exit I think we will be pushing the baby out with the bathwater and that is something we should not do it will not benefit the United Kingdom nor will it benefit the rest of the European Union now I think Britain and excuse me for using this term should get a new deal and I think this deal should be based on three pillars number one common foreign security policy there is no European foreign security policy without Britain nor is it easy for Britain to act without the European Union number two just as an OMA fest because you cannot fight terrorism without the United Kingdom and vice versa and then number three to the argument here today I think the United Kingdom should have as much of an access to the single market as possible but that access based on four freedoms the free movements of goods services money and people will also involve people so in that sense you cannot detach these four freedoms but what you can do is detach some of the flanking policies if you don't like structural policies don't be part of it if you don't like agriculture or policy or energy policy or Environment Policy don't be a part of it but stick to the Four Freedoms the whole idea that immigration is a bad thing for the United Kingdom I think it's counterfactual you were the only country in the European Union in 2004 to allow for the free movement of labour from Eastern and Central Europe and look at the country which is prospered since 2004 it was you my third and final point is this I think the British people should be given a second chance in 2019 or 2020 and this is the argument the idea of detaching yourself from the European Union is probably the most important decision in recent British history I think there should be a choice between the New Deal which I call for to be as good as possible through a soft brexit and then the second option would be of membership that is the final choice that the you cast make because as has been said here before we are in a situation whereby people did not know what they voted for it is very easy to say brexit means brexit but I have not found anyone yet at this stage who can tell me what brexit actually meets Thanks so audience we've had the opening statements from our panelists before I throw this open to the floor let me tell you how you the audience here at the Emmanuel Center voted at the start of the debate before you heard any of us because on our motion let me let me remind you no back sliding over brexit britain should prioritize controlling its borders over staying in the European single market for the motion 20 percent against the motion 64% don't know 16 percent I should say however that our audience here in London is not representative of course of the British electorate because London as we know yes London apart from two constituencies voted overwhelmingly to remain on the June the 23rd referendum so no surprise there so can I see hands please okay fire away thank you for 46 years and when I arrived it wasn't just the microphones that didn't work nothing worked it was a dog I come from my home in Canada buy in New York in Germany and this was a poor country still recovering from the war it's got richer every year since we joined the EU I'd like the panel to tell me too what they attributed if they don't have tribute to globalization foreigners like me and the EU thank you I have a question for Douglas now given the performance of your colleagues in the House of Commons since the referendum or looking back at the track record before the UK joined the common market what makes you think that British politicians are that much more skillful than brussels politicians I happen to think that UK politicians a hideously wrong on many many things but at least you can sack them at least you can hold their feet to the fire however imperfectly the people the people who gave us the euro which has caused mass unemployment throughout the European Union and consigned the lives of tens of millions of people in southern Europe to ruin and debt you can't get rid of them the troika in Greece cannot be held to account it's against ordinary people having the power to hold to account the people who govern them and he's not a force for global free trade thank you let's agricultural questions now yeah you've got a microphone stand he's been against trade deals he's argued that China the import of cheap Chinese goods has strangulated the economy and he's got a lot of votes and is now won from being against it and becoming protectionist but you're now saying that we are going the opposite and we're going for trade deals so that doesn't correlate with people being really angry and voting for Trump I'd like to go if your answer thank you there was another point there in respect to the brexit campaign one of your fellow travelers on the road to brexit was one Boris Johnson recently quoted as stating that Britain will make a Titanic success of brexit now carry on given that we all know what happened to the Titanic I regard this statement by Boris as quite prophetic question to Anna and Alexander his son is the single market not integral to the whole point and idea of the European Union and therefore a country to leave the European Union without leaving the single market would be like a couple getting divorced and still remaining living together alright so we have that question about people angry about globalization which doesn't really fit with the free trade free you know well that you're looking at well that's identifying Trump with brexit I mean they're completely different things the point about the brexit campaign 92% of our people who are workers in this country don't work in protected industries 8% do and yet actually every car constituency voted for practices where did those facts come from them seriously the brexit debate right people like me lost and now we need to move on but there was a very dangerous statistic and that was you used which needs challenging you said there were over 1 million and unskilled immigrants in our country that is not true this um goes that is not true because your definition of unskilled now I don't interrupt you sir so don't you did and the point I'm going to make is your definition of unskilled workers includes nurses nurses are some of the most skilled people in our country you know and let us be very very clear on this point about migrant workers from the ELA you they got up here to work and they work very hard and the simple question which needs answering is when you've sent most of them home as you intend to do who is going to do the work that these people do I think that one of the reasons why there is a rising tide of anti-establishment Politics insurgency in the Western world is precisely because there's a feeling that the elite has stolen democracy in the the demos wants it back and when I hear Alexander come here and say that we need to vote again it worries me are we to be made to vote until we give the right answer according to Alex but that is an outrageous outrageous - four months one is the comparison between Trump and brexit I think it's very difficult to compare the two but I think the underlying themes are very similar you know there is an element of rejecting of the other there's an element of anti-globalization I agree with your Douglas that you know there's a feeling that over the past 25 years when globalization has advanced a lot of people have left out they've been felt that they've been left outside and they don't have a say and these are issues that need to be addressed now the big difference here is UK and it breaks it and Trump is that Trump there will be a re-election in four years but brexit means brexit and you are out for good is it just one senses Alexander said that we needed to vote again and the choice should be between EU membership or the New Deal what kind of choice is that yeah he's got the microphone stand please so my question is not on the EU itself on representation so obviously brexit does me in brexit but my question is the proposition to Douglas into Patrick how do you represent 48% of the people by pushing for a complete severance of ties from the EU okay thank you those'll - a long time fair okay a good evening I'm very grateful to miss this tube for offering me and those who voted like me a second chance to rectify the mistake that we made but I voted to leave the European Union and whatever flows with that flows with it and I'd like to pick up Anna Supre on a disgraceful slur type comment that she made of the start I've heard this said many times about how we control our borders and anybody if the implication mean anybody who has concerns over borders is somehow racist and I'll make this last point a million people entered Germany over the last 15 months much to the concern of many of the residents in six years time if we stay in the European Union allowing for the transitional arrangements every single one of them people will be entitled to settle here thank you you will get a chance to but I I noticed you will I will come to you for that because you have a right of reply yes but I just want to come to Radek Sikorski who was foreign minister of poland until last year who i've spotted in the audience there I'm just picking up on that particular point there because 850,000 poles in the UK and we've had a lot of complaints from your government and also from the ambassador here in the UK about the rise in xenophobic attacks and comments about the poles in particular I was myself a refugee in this country I was very grateful to get protection here from martial law in Poland when I needed it I now a migrant worker and just on a point of fact if you want to get rid of me send me back to Poland you don't need to leave the European Union it's enough that I for three months become a burden on the public extractor and you can then do that under the existing treaties secondly I really don't believe that retina needs to recover its sovereignty because if you weren't sovereign he wouldn't have had this referendum in Poland we know something about losing sovereignty and it's somewhat offensive to hear it in this way thirdly I would still like to back the underdog in this debate because much as I agree with Alex that that this is a big experiment that Britain is embarking upon I think the politics of this country are such that they will have to leave both the single market and the customs area my proposal would be that patrick-man Ford's vision of a freewheeling free trade in Britain should be tested and perhaps Britain will again be pioneered just like she was in the 1980s when she reversed the course of history by starting privatisation if your model works we will be following you if it doesn't they're in a generation or so 15-20 years then you can have your second referendum and correct what I believe to be your mistake thank you very much indeed Radek but and I'm gonna come to you for a right of reply because that question there about don't paint people who want to control their borders as racist you didn't say that yeah everybody in this room heard exactly what I said and so I do take objection because I didn't say that anybody who wanted to control our borders or indeed reduce immigration was a racist I never said any such thing I will tell you this in my County of Nottinghamshire there has been an 18% rise in hate crime people who have come here to work sometimes born and bred in our country and second or third immigrants have found themselves being subjected to foul racist language and the sort of comments which are not acceptable in any society can I just say to the young man over there makes a pretty good point this is the point I really also want to make is about we have to move forward and we have to bring people together and we have to heal huge divisions that have occurred in our society and don't has to underestimate them or 48% of people voted to remain in the EU yeah we need to hear them bring the women as we like at the best field yeah okay Patrick Minford just first of all comment about a civilized debate and I do think we should move on and I like very much what mr. Sikorski said because exactly right in the 80s we charted in this country and that was what improved our economy massively in the following two decades big reforms of this economy under mrs. Thatcher so I I'm very happy I'm very happy to be judged on what I regard in brexit as the next stage in our free market movement of reform and supply-side reform because what in fact what what the other side forgot to say is the may be a market of 500 million in the EU to whom we will continue to sell but there's over 6 billion people in the rest of the world who are kept out of the EU by EU protectionism and in liberalism that you said you would hang on you said you would use taxpayers money to subsidize British businesses that would suffer as a result of us leaving the single market you've cited that are you find it very hard to understand any good economic free markets you say you find it very hard to understand economics but what you have to understand as quickly could you answer them the question from the young teenager about how do you represent and we've been older but I don't know so either you mr. Sikorski I thought you were being referred to as a young teenager they're addressing your point I'm sure I know that the young young man who said how to represent those 16 and 17 year olds a lot of them who wanted to would have liked to have remained in the EU but they didn't have the vote if you look at the figures you'll actually find that the remain side got more votes from over-60s than they did from people in their twenties actually there are an awful lot of people study that's been damages then being confirmed by the LSE so as you go through the age groups young voted much more heavily to remain and as you go up the age of their age groups older people include what I was saying I think what I was saying is that there is an enormous amount of support to remain amongst older people and for leave amongst younger people let's go to the floor and I'll come back to microphone yeah lady here oh sorry gentlemen I do beg your pardon to see used lights in my eyes yeah it's alright teenager here no black siding on braixen Britain should prioritize controlling its borders over staying in the European single market now endangered actually properly addressing the motion I'd like to start proposition to actually explain what they mean by controlling our borders what it specifically has been wrong with our borders up to this point and what are they going to change that would so dramatically affect how we are a member of such an important part of our economy and the global economy thank you good evening I'd like to take exception to something that douglas Carswell said that we all knew that the you Kip and the leave campaign had specified exactly that we were going to leave the the single market I think that we were told there could be a Canadian deal there could be a Swiss deal there could be a Norwegian deal there could be any sort of deal and I think the reason we should be asking for a second referendum when it comes to what sort of deal we actually get is we knew that we wanted to exit but we don't know where we're going okay thank you who's got the microphone here yep go ahead it's - Alex can I remind you that David Cameron actually went to the EU tried to get a deal came back with nothing then we have the referendum can I also say something that having as hopefully it will all go through an article 50 and we'll leave it's exciting times ahead for us we're part of the Commonwealth Africa has the fastest growing middle class is growing at 20% and I think we can do a lot more deals with the Commonwealth and we've had our hands tied I should just say article 50 of course is what the UK has to trigger it in order to begin the process to leave the European Union yeah I wanted to know if poor people are the ones who are feeling the brunt of immigration and the ones who are losing their jobs to those cob workers etc why is it that the what their areas with the highest levels of immigration that are generally the ones that voted to remain okay with respect the lady who asked the question if she thinks there's any doubt as to whether or not the vote was about leaving the single market we were being criticized precisely because we had established a very clear position that a vote to leave the European Union was a vote to leave the single market it is deeply disingenuous to suggest that that wasn't what it was about but it what to leave the single market is a member correct of the single market not necessarily precluding in your view and other people who thought like you continuing access in some shape or form to think along it but that is the thing that a lot of people now are questioning whether even that is possible absolutely it was also a question I think about you know David Cameron trying to get a deal on the free movement of people from within the European Union and so on mention of Africa you know the burgeoning middle class and all that and what about more migrants from the Commonwealth rather than the European Union then because of course Britain has got huge ties with Commonwealth countries what I would change would be the control of unskilled immigrants that's the point that's where that's where a civilized country has to have control because skilled immigrants pay their way and that always was confused by the remain camp they said mimma Gration you know is great which of course on average it is so you like the point system precisely it's about the control of unskilled what's entrance into our welfare system yeah so who is going to clean the lavatories then in our hospitals who is going to pick the fruit and the vegetables in the fields of this country because I still want to know what the definition of unskilled is there are hardly any unskilled jobs now in our country and tell you the answer in two words you have a deal with migrants whereby they don't bring independence which is what we cost the welfare that's what costs the welfare and she's not litigious said work has come in to clean the laboratories pick the fruit in the berries but don't bring your families yes that's the point and that's that's the system of work 50% 50% of people in Boston especially Polish people in Boston are fit young men we need migrant workers and we should welcome and this is getting so heated but yes I'll try to lighten it up Douglas we have to be careful with the US UK trade agreement especially about the abbreviation because if it's us UK its you suck agreement and that's no good I think the core of the matter here is for all of us is the free movement of people and then the single market that was the motion that we were supposed to address and I agree with the young gentleman we have not yet been able to prove what is wrong with free movement and that is because we keep on mixing two things we talked about uncontrolled immigration or even asylum seekers on one hand and then either skilled or unskilled labor belonging to the European Union on the other hand that's one issue that needs to be addressed and I simply don't see the evidence what has gone wrong with that okay thank you please not the microphone there's an assumption that being associated with the European Union continues to be a good thing by those who wish to remain and yet they forget that over the course of the time we've been involved it's been an increasingly sclerotic organization please brexit controlling our borders is more important than access to the single market hello I shan't start by stating my nationality because it's frankly irrelevant my question is does it not seem rather vulgar to the panel that we should constantly be obsessing over economic interests we should allow to take primacy over all other things they're not things which are perhaps more important than our immediate economic interests okay Thank You judges pause well we wanted to think of this as a choice between economic prosperity or freedom and independence I believe the two actually go together the most free and liberal and independent societies around the world are the most prosperous and in the future those countries that succeed and flourish will be those that manage to be both independent and interdependent now the EU I believe is is failing it's the only continent on the planet with the exception of Antarctica that isn't growing it's in more than just a funk it's in a fundamental and in some cases an absolute malaise why precisely because the European project is about trying to organize the affairs of tens of millions of people by grand design and that doesn't work I believe that if we leave the European Union we will prosper and thrive you don't need to be in a political union with tax-free technocrats and unelected bankers running your affairs to be good neighbors and to be open and free and liberal and it's just where's the microphone one more thank you very much I would just like to ask an assault ring you mentioned arises in hate crime now everyone in this hall and everyone the panel is disagreeing with each other but I'm perfectly certain that we all agree that we bitterly regret it but I don't see the relevance of that to this debate either because are you saying that if we stay at the single Marty the hate crime will go back in the bottle don't you think it's because your previous Prime Minister called a referendum that's what for isn't a hate crime you can't change it now okay Mike might see I met my chief constable in Nottingham sure and she was very clear I rise this magista at this moment 18% higher than this time last year and she said this is the words of the chief constable who is not political and has no views on exit she said that there was a direct correlation between the rhetoric and the language used in the EU referendum debate that was continuing in a County like mine all right the end of the debate before I announce the final vote to see which side has won the most votes let me remind you the audience how you were thinking before the debate started so no backsliding on brexit Britain should prioritize controlling its borders over staying in the European single market the pre-debate results again for the motion 20 percent against 64% don't know 16 percent and now the final results after the debate for the motion 39% you've gone up against 59% you've gone down by five percentage points the dope noes are down to 2% so that was a swing of minus 12 percent so in a sense congratulations to this side against the motion because you maintained your lead but also congratulations to you because you got quite a lot of votes you managed to influence the thoughts so it's been it's been a lively debate I hope we've thrown heats as well as light on a very very difficult issue thank you to all our panel to you the audience here at Emmanuel centre to intelligence squared from me Zane Abbott are in the Emmanuel Centre in London good bye

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 39,920

Keywords: brexit, britain, usa, europe, eu, single market, borders, immigration, econonomy, article 50, bbcworldnews, debate, intelligencesquared, oratory, donald trump, anna soubry, alexander stubb, douglas carswell, patrick minford, zeinab badawi, ukip

Id: n7sRLDAXkzo

Length: 48min 7sec (2887 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 30 2016