The Qur'an's Many Problems-Jay Smith

the inemitability of the quran every muslim whether they are radical whether they are nominal whether they are liberal will all make these claims they will say first and foremost that the quran is uncreated it always has existed in surah 85 ayah 22 it's very clear that these are the eternal tablets these are the the uh the eternal tablets which exist in heaven from which the angel gabriel was then given to piecemeal over a period of 22 years 23 years to a man named muhammad living in mecca and medina uncreated sent down to this man muhammad over that 22 year period and that was finally completed not at the time that muhammad was living but at the time that uthman had it had the canonized in 652. every muslim will say it was completed in 652. so 652 uthman then canonizes the quran and then according to every muslim that it's unchanged from that time period so if you could just remember four words uncreated sent down completed unchanged can you remember those four words that's all you have to ask a muslim oh that's much better can you hear me now okay so there's the four words you need to know if you just remember those four words you can pretty well destroy the quran by asking them because they then have to come up with a defense now there's no way that we can really confront the first two uncreated sent down that happened hundreds of years ago we're not there by the way i see people taking notes stop your notes you're not gonna keep up just put your notes down i will give you the powerpoint at the end okay you can all have the powerpoint it doesn't cost the thing so what we can do is confront these next two the next two that is completed and unchanged these two here that's all you need to confront show me one quran that is complete and unchanged from the seventh century that's all you need to ask so let's go on let's head on right down that this is what we know as the immunibility of the quran now we can say as christians that we know the bible is not eternal it's created we know who wrote it we even give the names to the authors on many of the books it was sent down no it was not sent down inspired yes but not sent down through an angel gabriel complete yes that's the only claim we will say in the original text it was complete but we don't have the originals today for none of them unchanged yes of course it's been changed we know where it's been changed we are all transparent about it we even put in the margins we put up the in footnotes where the changes are we know that there are about 41 verses that are in doubt in the new testament john chapter 7 verse 53 to john chapter 8 verse 11 that those are not in the earliest greek manuscripts the last part of mark chapter 16 verse 9 to 20 are not in the earliest greek manuscript they could be originals but we don't know because we don't have any of the originals okay so we are very open we would never make these claims all right so we're talking about two different reference points for our revelation don't let the muslims hang you on that now what do muslim leaders say well here you have fethullah gulen who is in pennsylvania only one quran unaltered uned edited and untampered then you have suzanne hanif preserved today in its original form here you have abdullah yusuf ali who wrote the the use of ali translation in 1930s not even a single letter has changed muhammad ali not even a dire critical point has changed dr shabadi i've debated him six times he will no longer debate me after 2014 because of what we showed him in 2014. exactly identical for over 1300 years and then later on he puts it back to 1400 years the text was known through memory work and through the written materials including the tashkent which is the samarkand that we're going to talk about today the difference from that copy to what we're to read today is we find no differences he no longer says that because of the material that i'm going to introduce today now what is my rhythmic today we can't concrete uh critique the uncreated part we can't critique the uh complete part thus what we want to find is one quran i'm only asking for one quran that's all i want from the mid century mid 7th century that is complete that means all 114 surahs and is exactly the same today as that manuscript that they can show me that's all i'm asking for that's not too much to ask for we have the city atticus right there in the british library that is 1700 years old take a look at it you can go and see it it's completely transparent you can get the entire manuscript online so i'm going to do one two three four five six five uh six things today i'm gonna look at the two compilations i'm gonna look at the six earliest manuscripts uh the changes in the earliest manuscripts the two layers of the pounds if you look at the four carbon dating lab reports and then i'm looking at the 31 arabic qurans now that's an awful lot to get through in one hour bear with me that's why i say put your your pens down you're not going to keep up the two compilations what are we talking about in the quran in order to know how the quran was put together you need to go to hadith you know to go to sahih bukhari you need to go to volume 6 hadith number 509 and 510. these are the classic account of how the quran is put together in the first 509 5 609 it says that abu bakr was gay was given the responsibility to a man named zaid ibn tabi who was a secretary of muhammad he was given that responsibility to write the quran the very first recession the first copy of the quran zaidi bin tabi did not want to do it he thought it would be too difficult he said how can i do something that muhammad did not do then then he finally acquiesced when abu bakr and both umar forced him to do so so he went to palm stocks stones and memories of surviving warriors and took them compiled what he could find he gave that copy to the daughter of umad named hafsa who was used to was also one of the wives of muhammad and she put it under her bed and kept it there for roughly 20 years then we have al-buhari chapter 5 verse 6 10. the very next section comes and talks about the second recession so now we have a need for another a second copy second time utmon realizes that there are many qurans in existence that are disagreeing with each other so he asked zaidi bin tabi to take that one that hafsah had to bring it there to him and then to rewrite it he gives that job to zaidi bin tabit along with zubair alas so four of them are to rewrite the quran if they have any if they have any problems between them if they have any debate between their to do in the quraishi dialect arab speakers what is wrong with that right there why is that impossible those who are arab speakers in order to have dialectic differences in arabic you have to have the dhamma the kasara nafata right where was the dhamma kasra and fattah in the 7th century they were only invented in the late 8th century so how can you even have this as a problem well take a look at who's writing this al buhari he lived in 870 the late 9th century he's talking about a problem in the late 9th century and he's redacting it back to the 7th century but anybody who knows arabic knows that this is impossible to have happened are you following me you at least follow what i'm saying and this is why arabs you need to start arguing this this is why you need to as arab speakers you need to get up and you need to say this is impossible obviously why have the arab speakers not noticed this let's move on then he takes that one final copy and he sends it to nine different cities vasram baghdad damascus jerusalem cairo alexandria we also went to we went down to aden head up and nishapur that's nine cities that means we should have nine copies of the quran in existence today not four like they have always been saying we should have nine according to al-buhari volume six five ten but then he did a very curious thing after he sent that to the nine provinces they then ordered that all the quranic materials whether written or fragmentary management or whole copies be burnt why do you burn manuscripts unless they all disagree and you want to destroy the evidence now why haven't we said this why aren't people talking about this can you see the problems just as this is their own material i'm not making this up any muslim knows who al-bukhari is it's sahih buhari that means he's perfect there is no error in this now here's the questions why didn't god choose a language which could have accommodated the quran here we already have greek and hebrew that god had already used why didn't he choose another language which had no diacritical marx had no vowelization had no damakas or al-fattah why would he choose a language that could even accommodate his final revelation if it's the greatest revelation that's the first question secondly why did he choose a man who couldn't even read and write to give his greatest revelation to and how long does it take to read and write arabic it took me two weeks to read and write arabic muhammad already knew arabic he had 22 years to learn to read and write more than that why didn't he use his secretary he had a secretary that whole time what do secretaries do if they don't write so for 22 years he wrote nothing down and then why did abu bakr make copies of it like uthman did 20 years later and sent it to the nine provinces why do we have to wait another 20 years before it was finally set out these are questions you need to ask how could there be diacritical differences in the mid-seventh century the dialectical differences don't even begin to appear until the eighth century the devilization doesn't begin to appear until the ninth century see these are should anybody who reads or writes arabic should know these arguments and then why in the world did he burn all the man the existing manuscripts that disagreed with the manuscript that he finally retained fourth question where are the copies of the quran sent to those nine cities fourteen hundred years that's not very long ago we have the new testament that we have three manuscripts from the new testament alone two in london one in rome that are from the fourth century and the fifth century we also have in the the alex and dryness from the fifth century the entire old and new testament in the british library if we can come up with 365 either complete or partial manuscripts for the new testament by the sixth century why can't they even come up with one manuscript from the first century sorry from the seventh century we've got to ask muslims this so if uthman standardized the qur'an to just one copy are there now a multiplicity of different arabic qurans today we'll get to that so let's look at what the islamic traditions say now this is their own traditions i'm just going to quote them sahu buhari sahih muslim sunnah sunan sugra sunam of those are the six major traditions these are the uh these are the six most authoritative traditions and you can see how many hadith they have for each one we'll have to go really quickly so you can read this for yourself when you look at what they're saying they say that some of the verses were lost according to ibn dawad here we have asayuti who says he says let none of you say i have acquired the whole of the quran how does he know what all of it is when much of the quran has disappeared rather let him say i have acquired what has survived now that means he's already admitting that much of the quran has disappeared some of the verses were forgotten according to sahih muslim some verses were canceled according to sahih buhari other verses went missing according to sahih buhari again some verses were overlooked according to ibn abidawud some verses were changed according to moatah even malik some verses were modified according to ibn mabib you can read all these in your own time these are just for you to get to know what they're saying so obviously the 9th century compilers and the 10th century compilers had no problems that much of the quran was lost so why are muslims in the 21st century saying it was complete and unchanged some verses were substituted according to sahih buhari and then some verses were even eaten by sheep according to ibn matcha so lost disappeared forgotten canceled missing overlooked changed modified substituted eaten by sheep does this sound like a book which was compiled perfectly and completely it's very clear from these hadith coats that there was a good bit of the intentional human intervention from the very beginning human intervention i'm going to say that over and over again you'll see why let's go then to the insert these are the six earliest manuscripts these are considered by all scholars to be the original koran and for many years of when i started working in islam back 37 years ago this is all i heard these are the original manuscripts now there's no way that i could dispute it because i was not given access to these manuscripts none of us were given access to these manuscripts we now have access to all of them and every one of them is on that computer right back there we now have complete we don't have we have complete facsimiles of all of them that today nine quartuses were sent to nine cities just to remind you four metres according to islamic traditions this is what arbory found in the 1930s he just went and read from the islamic traditions and he found that there was one codex that was put together by ub ibn kaab in damascus it had 115 chapters there's another one that was put together in baghdad by ubdal ibn masood it had 111 chapters another one by ibn musa in basra it had 116 chapters the one was put together by zaidi bin tabit had the 114 that we used today so even the early traditions were not aware of how many chapters there were in the quran this is their own material that admits this so certainly early on this was not a problem but let's take a look at these manuscripts and these are the six major manuscripts here the topkapi the samarkand the mail the petropolis the huzaini and the the sauna manuscript probably the most exciting let's start with the talk this is the one that they are now reducing to and back when i started working with islam and when i started debating this material back in 1995 they said these six manuscripts by week time we got up to 2006 and 2007 they reduced it really to about four of them by the time we got to the debate in 2014 they reduced it only to one manuscript and that's this one here so it makes my job so easy all i have to do is destroy this manuscript this is the last one they got because this is the best of all the six but let's take a look at this is the top copy manuscript this one was in the top copy museum if you go to istanbul there in turkey you will find it this one is in london this one is that petropolis is in paris the husaini is in cairo and the sauna is in yemen let's see what the scholars say and we need to and we need to go to these two scholars this is professor dr ekmaladin insanoru who is the founding director of irisa secretary general of the organization islamic conference research center and this man here this is why the better the two doctor tyler although both turkish they are the ones that are responsible for the top copy but this is the man that really has done the most devastating work he is the one that controls the topeka and is considered to be the leading authority in the muslim world on early arabic manuscripts that's why you need to listen to him when he speaks he says and this is what he says and this is a survey that was done between 2002 and 2007 for five years they went to all the six manuscripts they came up with the survey by 2009 it was printed i got a copy in 2013 in english which you can get i can give it to you it's on my computer that's all you need to read is their introduction it's 83 pages long and see what they say this is the material that i introduced in my 2014 debate uh which you can get online as well we have no we have none of uthman's muscles none of them exist he was very clear on that nor do we have any copies from those muslims these muslims date from the later umayyad period the umayya period goes from 661 up till 7 50. the later omaya period means the 8th century he is very clear that they're all 8th century manuscripts doctor no serious scholarly work has been done on any of them these muslims date from the early to mid 8th century they are not with manic nor copies sent by him he starts by the topkapi and he says this is a i'm sorry it's all been washed out but it looks very good on you when it's on your computer you'll get a much better picture of it but when you look at the diacritical marks you will see they he dates it to the second half of the first century ah which would be from 661 up till 719 and the first half of the second century which means 719 up to 770. be careful muslims will think this is a d this is not a.d this is a h and he does it by looking the voweling and the dating and he says even though we would like to publish the secret text as a music of california our research indicated that it was neither the private muslim caliph nuthman nor one of the muslims he sent to various centers so he's very clear these are not the earliest manuscripts conclusion there are derivations from grammatical rules and spelling mistakes he found 2270 variants that means words and phrases that are different in that manuscript than the quran we have today can you see it makes my job so easy all i have to do is quote him those are consonants these are okay did you hear what he said these are consonantal differences we'll get into that a little later you'll see what we're talking about now you can see here you know what we conceal with what he revealed in the top copy in serial 14 now it's become you know what we can reseal and what we reveal see we or he you can see it changes that's the who's doing the revealing there here's another one of surah 3 ayah 158 you shall not be gathered verses before him you shall undoubtedly be gathered that completely changes the meaning so these are hugely significant the samarkan manuscript the samarkand which is probably the one the one of the most famous because it's been around the world they brought it to london about five years ago it's a monumental text it's dated to the mid early to mid eighth century it was considered to be the best preserved manuscript the one that is complete and utmonic it is now an embarrassment there is undispensed spelling throughout has different whiting styles it has scribal mistakes copious mistakes written by someone with little experience and with later editions and it only goes up to surah 43 there's 114 series in the quran but even amongst those surah 40 up to surah 43 take a look at this there is only one complete surah in that that entire manuscript 26 24 the surahs are partial 16 don't even exist so much of it is missing why haven't we been told that before the manuscript which is in in uh uh london this one we do know about this one has been well around it's the 2165 manuscript it has a slanted text that's why it's called mael which is what it means in arabic it is written the hijazi style which is an earlier style than the abbasid so it should be one of the earliest it only goes up to surah 43 53 percent of the quran is missing alta kulich dated to the early 8th century dr martin lings who did the most extensive work on it dates it to the late 8th century around 790. okay a halo zany text now sometimes that's spelled with a y sometimes it's spelled with an i either or is correct the housing chiromosa is the early mid 8th century it is also a monumental text it's huge which means it's a much later manuscript this is not uthmanic according to altakulich it is dated from the early to mid century eighth century it is con it also has enormous number of variants you can see a variant here it has these coverings you see these coverings there can you see these coverings that means they're changing the text we'll get into that covering over the text signify hiding or centering the original written text then we have the parasito metropolis there in the bibliotheque nationale in pakis and this one here is controlled by dr franco doroch he is the one that's done the most study on it the largest it's a number of different manuscripts in a compilation of manuscript collection the largest only contains 26 of the quran so where is this complete quran they keep talking about 26 and even amongst the 26 there are 93 variants just within the mark that we do and are able to read five different copies later modifications the largest is 26 percent another one is 15 percent another is only 4.2 percent here you can see a difference between the metropolis and the kyrie text and is then changed to soul which changes the meaning of the text then we get to the sauna and this is my favorite because this one is probably the most damaging because this is the one and this is the most recently discovered in 1975 uh by when they discovered in 1975 they noticed that it had no diacritical marks it had no vowelization they couldn't read it so they brought three german scholars who consider the world's authority on the arabic track text from saburkin university in satellite satellite university in south broken and they flew them docked uh down to yemen to investigate this manuscript in 1981 dr garrett twin dr von bothmer and dr oleg the three doctors all of them looked at it and immediately they realized there was a problem so they took pictures of it those pictures were confiscated by the yemeni government and only released to them until uh uh in 1997. i went to re uh see dr garrett quinn and he showed me this facsimile from his own photos and this is surah 19 over here and then right there for the yellow market it jumps to surah 22. so that's surah 1922. this script is dated to 705. but he said what happened to 0 20 and 21 well 20 suddenly appears over here can you see that they're two different scripts you can see that right away this is a much later script this script here is probably 60 years later so that's 705 that's late uh 8th century two different scripts take a look at every one of those orange marks see those orange marks every time you see an orange mark that's a variant that means a word or phrase that's different in that manuscript from the quran we have today he's counted over a thousand this has yet to be published by the way this is yet to be published conclusions the quran began to be compiled in the last two decades of the seventh century with other versions continuing until the ninth century according to carl heinz oleg dr garrett point and his wife elizabeth have done the most work on this manuscript they say that the oldest parchments and papers of this is by far the oldest manuscript in existence today and it is the oldest manuscript yet more than half of the text is ambiguous letters which need direct critical marks for understanding adding vowels helped correct the mistakes changes in the orthography uh are found in geographical tradition schools so some of this is well known because these are well documented in later what we call hadith compilation schools now i'm going to go and to come back to the sauna manuscript a little later i'm going to look at the two layers because what they have found is this is a pollen cest you'll see what i'm talking about in about 10 minutes let's continue on with the changes because this is probably this material here is probably the most damaging that we're coming across yet and this is dr dan brubaker's material he's a good friend of mine and mark marked mark and i both got our doctorates at the same place in in melbourne australia and dan brubacher along with keith small dr keith small we've been all working together on this material uh they're the ones that i can say there's names i can say there's others whose names i'm not permitted to say who are arabists and they don't want their names out in public but weak dr brown brubacher doesn't mind you knowing who he is or what he's been doing this is his doctoral thesis that came out in 2014 and i introduced this at the debate i did in 2014 and i know and we noticed uh when he went back and he started filming every one of these six manuscripts he decided to film where there were corrections now he was only expecting to find maybe 15 20 corrections at the most you'll see how many he found here are insertions 390 insertions where words are put above the line can you see where the word's been put above the line at a later date what does this do well when they when you here's an example of the topkapi manuscript it says oh you who believe repent until you are given by it sincerely today it's now says oh you believe turn unto allah in syria repentance it completely changes the text so there's an insertion that changes the text oh boy you can't even see this one we'll have to go over it sorry about that but their name allah is introduced at a different part here i can't even see what this is we'll have to get you'll have to read this on your computer it's been washed out here here is a case where you have the sur 23 86 it originally lacked the word al-sabah and then it says say who is the lord of the seven so the seven is been introduced above the line there it is right there al-sabah the seven heavens that's where we get seven heavens from but it wasn't there in the original text so 49 verse 15 it originally had the word mu minu which means they believe but then a later scribe added the letter noon changed the word to mu minoon which means believers and that's what we now have in the huff's text which is the canonized text that we use today then he found 390 erasers you can see where they completely erased words letters which changes the word these ones we don't know what they have erased of course this one a single word was erased between the words two third and the night unfortunately we will never know what the word was which was erased but this is the standard text today so whatever they erased they wanted to get rid of it at a later date so that it amalgamated itself with what be then became the standard text huzaini manuscript surah 49 is-6 something is erased after the word fasaka also while for well for this verse the word fasaka is used in this manuscript the word fasaku is used instead in the 1924 house text that we use today here you see an erasure which i can't show you because i have no idea what that was because it's been erased again another eraser somewhere between you all and of whom it was another word complete word that's been erased changing the text completely here's another sensor eraser uh in chapter 26 verse 72 words we erase after the word what and before the words do you worship we will never know what those two words were what a pity and then he found 506 erasers overwritten so they raised entire lines and they wrote over top here's an example of overwriting in the petropologist there in paris here's an example of overwritten again in the petropoldness here's an example of in saint petersburg this is a later manuscript not part of the original six this is one in the saint petersburg in russia they're on surah 7 ayah 189 and then they had overriding with audi ratio they just wrote over top they didn't even care that if you write if you could see what was written unbelief these are a little bit easier for us to see what's been changed because the writing is still there when you put it under ultraviolet light here's 70 verse 32 they in the text is written over top replacing something which is in this case not discernible because of the change it now agrees with the 1924 quran the huff's text overriding without eraser there you can see chapter 3 verse 104 where the commanding reads now the commanding has been changed and put over top then they found 500 he found 500 intentional changes directly over portions these are coverings do you see these coverings can you see the coverings there they just covered wouldn't you love to pick up and see what's written underneath if we'd ever have access to these men we could see what they tried to cover but in every case they are standardizing the text and these are done hundreds of years after the original text are you seeing that hundreds of years this text the topper text is 705 these are done in the 9th and the 10th century we guess maybe even later covering the huzzani cairo text there you can see 002 187 covers something between the words so eat and until the 1924 it reads eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears what's what's missing we don't know because it's been covered over covering the house any text again in sura 2 i 1981-193 i'm going to go over these quickly because otherwise i'll put you to sleep these are for those who are serious you need to go and look at them and then we'll give you them because by august we'll have 4 000 to give you we're up to 4 000 now in 2014 we only had 2 000 and this is all going to be available in august of this year here are selective coverings over written 210 writings over top where they wrote and then they wrote over top a completely different word or sets of words and then they had these tapings and when dan looked at he thought maybe there's because there was damage but when he looked on the backside there was no damage whatsoever it's obviously they were censoring something here and here you can see a taping there's a taping there's a taping look here taping's all over the page five different places on just one page itself so obviously what we conclude is at this time in 2014 there were 2 200 corrections they are all constantly getting back to your point we'll explain what that means none of them are diacritical marks this has nothing to do with direct critical marks there were no direct critical marks in any of these manuscripts you notice none of these are vowelization you didn't see any dhamma or kasrafata in any of these this has nothing to do with violation and they're not dog at olives dagon olives were introduced in the 9th century none of this has to do with dog and olive differences thus they change the meaning of the text they continue up until the 9th century thus they are all intentional they bring about a later standardization and which means they have on a political agenda all written by humans now western scholars like doros balring conrad peterstein shoemaker these are the top men in their field they all conclude that the earliest muslims begin to appear in the 8th century the muslim scholars like ekmaladin and isanolu and although conclude that the earliest muslims begin to appear in the 8th century islamic awareness the largest muslim website that deals with manuscript evidence they're the ones that have all the manuscripts on their website they have finally had to conclude since 2014 since that debate that they all now exist in the 8th century or later isn't that interesting even they have now have to conclude that they're all later manuscripts and the latest research shows that even these muslims have seven forms of corrections dating up until the 9th century therefore some muslims muslims no longer do have an eternal quran they can't say that anymore they cannot say that it was set down they cannot say that it was complete in 650 and they cannot say it's not been changed there are hundreds there are not just hundreds there are thousands of changes we're up to four thousand already so who was muhammad and what's his purpose if you've been here last year an hour you'll see why i say that because if this is all from the 8th century on none of this has to do with muhammad and i said this back in the debate in 2014 and shall ali got quite upset with me for saying that he says i hope you're doing that tongue in cheek and i said no i'm not we're putting the gauntlet down that means muhammad had nothing to do with the koran this all came way after muhammad and it continues to be changed and changed up until the 10th century so i turned to shabbat ali and i said so where is your quran from tell me the date for your quran you know what the date is for the quran that he's using today does anybody know what the date is 1924 94 years ago is when the quran was finalized i turned to shabbat and i said prince philip is older than your quran and he's still living and that's exactly what the crowd did he was not amused and since then he will not debate me but it's not because of that he can't debate me there's no way they can debate this how would you debate this when we have all the manuscripts now available for us to look at and he has no idea what we're coming out with in august in august it'll all be out there so you can put it on your computer we'll give it so all of you can have it on your computer yes scott is the birmingham significant hold on actually i'm not going to do that let me just tell you very quickly what are the dates for the birmingham manuscripts 568 to 745. okay what's the problem with those dates right there well it's before before he was born he was born 570 but what even the latest let's just go with the latest date what's wrong with it when was the quran put together 6 52 if the latest date is 6 45 you're seven years before uthman but see carbon dating is very inexact and when you you have to go with what they call the bell curve and when you're going with the bell curve it's the median date is the is the strongest date so the bell curve for that puts it about 6 10 which is when muhammad started receiving his revelation so this all precedes his revelation but that's not the worst way to you'll see what we're going to show you we now have we have now four labs that are now looking at manuscripts and i'm just going to show you one from sauna manuscript and they all predate muhammad in case up and they even go as early as 4 43. that's a whole hundred years before muhammad so be careful with carbon dating it'll come around to sting you and it differs but all of these manuscripts had changes in them these changes are changes not simple diacritical marks or violations they continue to be changed for hundreds of years there was an intentional standardization of the text thus this again proves there has been intentional human intervention that's what we're getting at these are all intentional human interventions this has nothing to do with god this has nothing to do with muhammad this has nothing to do with uthman this is much later changes now let's look at the son of manuscript this sort of manuscript is probably my most the most exciting one dr asmahil ali finally came out with the findings last august in the uh in her book called the sauna manuscript the problem with the sound manuscript is it has a lower text that is now starting to leak through when they washed it off this is animal skin when this happens often whenever you use a manuscript that it's very valuable but it's very expensive you don't want to throw it away when things get to go wrong you then wash it off and right over top because it's made out of animal skin and it takes an awful lot long time to cure so they would wash off the manuscripts and of course when you wash it off you don't see the lower manuscripts hundreds of years later that ink starts to bleed through so when you look at you can see the ink there so they put it under ultraviolet life and now they're splitting the two texts this is done at columbia university it's also done to sorbonne and they're dating the lower text to seven 671 to 705 and the upper text from 745 on now let's just go right through here possibly the finding that these two texts do not agree the lower in the upper texts possibly a text has faded maybe is inaccurate or needed correct and maybe the text was obsolete or number four possibly the text was a nascent form of the later upper text so let's go through it you have many you have four major scholars who have looked at it actually five you have gairpoint dr elizabeth quinn dr sadegay and dr gudarzi the last two are muslim and then you have uh asmali who is also muslim this is her book right here now i you don't have to read the whole book i'll summarize it for you it's all right there on that one page let's go on what they're finding is this the lower text has 63 verses underneath it's only made up of 63 verses the lower text within those 63 verses there are 70 variants from the quran that we have today so more more variants and there are verses so hilally believes that these are nothing more than a reading circle that's what she calls it a reading circle you all know what that means that means these are students who are just writing their material and that's why they had to be erased off that was her conclusion on this dr elizabeth quinn says absolutely not the lower text is neither uthmanic nor from ibn massoud's codex so she concludes that the lower text was in the process of being corrected and made more precisely canonical and they finally gave up because there were too many corrections they just erased it and wrote over top thus the two layers were stages in the process of canonization she suggests that the corrections predate the upper text and were so many that at some stage the corrector abandoned the corrections and the text was palm tested and that's what a palm test is it's two different texts one above the other now when you look at the lower text you will see and these are the ones over here the lower text and these are the upper texts so the lower text 63 verses they do not agree with the upper text and they certainly don't agree with the quran that we have today verbs and nouns are left out 25 times articles are different participle differences conjunction differences prepositional differences 29 times it has isolated letters expression differences entire sentences 16 times are different than the quran we have today and you can see some of the examples here i don't want to go through all the time you can go read my powerpoint to see the differences here but you will see that they change the meaning of the text over and over again here you have allah with their money and themselves has been changed to did jihad struggle in the name of allah it completely changes the text and the meaning but know that they did not escape allah and his prophet now has been changed has been changed but know that you cannot escape allah can you see how that changes the theology as well as the meaning they've exchanged the signs of allah in their oath for a small price and averted from the way of allah now has been changed to they've exchanged the signs of allah for a small price and averted people from his way and why don't you fight the people who broke their oaths and they were the first to start the aggression and they intend to drive out the prophet now in the text it's been completely convoluted so that it writes it it reads it the other way around here you have um for those are for these are those whose deeds fell in this world in the next has been changed for those their deeds fell worthless can you now understand they've had the word worse lithon to that and here you can see they struggled and with anyone has been now put has now changed that completely from the they they do jihad in the name of allah and did not fear anyone but allah has now been changed to perform the salat and give zakat and fear none but allah that's not even in the original text a complete different phrase has been added which is part of the five pillars of islam allah does not forgive them indeed allah does not guide has been changed to allah will not forgive them because they disbelieve in allah and his prophet and allah does not guide so allah and muhammad are now added into the text proving that muhammad was introduced at a later date which makes sense with the archaeological evidence if you hear in the last hour you seek welcome has been changed to and greet those in them so you can see we'll just go right through here you can see the upper text then look at all the differences here in the upper text from the column it's not just the lower text it doesn't agree even the upper text doesn't agree with the quran we have today conclusions the lower text has dated the late 7th century and there's a 50 year gap between the two layers this could suggest that the upper text is a later correction of the lower text or one could question the dating of the lower text since ink cannot be dated only the skin of the animal can they're saying 671 but how do they come to that conclusion they won't tell us how they came to 671. you cannot date ink for one very good reason ink is an amalgamation of many different pigments from many different areas and many different eras so that's why you don't date ink you only date the skin and you can only date the skin of when the death of the animal because that's when the oxidation starts to take place and that's why you have to be careful about the dates so i would suggest that this is probably much closer to 705 more than likely is in the last two decades between 680 and 700 during the time of abdullah which fits exactly with what we're finding with the dome of the rock with the coins and also with the protocols from what we talked about in the last hour all of those are introduced in 691 that's when muhammad the first time we have any reference to muhammad is on the protocols is on the coins and is on the dome of the rock we have no reference to muhammad before that which is the same time that the lower text would been introduced but is it interesting muhammad's not in the lower text he's introduced in the upper text in 705. can you see how it all fits together the documentary evidence supports the archaeological evidence supports the documentary evidence supports the same timeline yeah mike this is all this the paleography is what they're now using because they're now dismissing uh they and as you'll see why because the carbon dating is so inexact we'll get to that hold on to your question these are variants in the upper text as well this suggests the standard text has not been canonized even by the early 8th century it still was not canonized muhammad died in 632 we're now in 705 we're 70 years later and still we don't have a quran ooh it makes my job easy the view that these texts are results of reading circles so this is hilali's army is fallacious first of all because parchments are very expensive and would not be wasted on students secondly muslims would have preserved why would they preserve students texts more than that why if these are students then where's the original of what they're copying from the scholars e prince sedegen gaudazi all agreed that there are many variants in the lower text 70 versus 63 variants this proves that this is not a standard chronic text as elizabeth quinn says this is a pre-chronic text which doesn't correspond with any of the known 8 to 10th century narratives all of the lower text variants change the meaning of the text and that's what's so disturbing and that's why hillary has to say this is just students you can see she has to say that she's a muslim i feel sorry for her but this is not this is not good academia the biggest difficulty with these two layers of the pollen says are number one they are the oldest chronic fragments in existence today number one number two all the other extect manuscripts are more recent so why are these layered pollen sips the earliest ones where are the where is the manuscript the original quran from which these this text is derived where is it where are those nine manuscripts okay so let's move on are these two palm slayers an example the nascent quran in its early formation are either of these two layers parallel to the eternal tablets in heaven since there are so these are so different from the quran which we are using today then where is the original manuscript for the 1924 huffs text used around the world finally both of these two layers prove once again that there was intentional human intervention in the chronic text from the very beginning i'm going to say that again intentional human intervention meanwhile let's talk about the radiocarbon date now we'll get back to your question scott the four carbon dating lab reports this is because of the birmingham manuscripts no one bothered to ask what else was happening outside of the oxford lab julian christian robin in 2015 wrote his book and picked to answer that and he said look at the carbon dating from the other labs this is from leon in france from keel in germany from zurich in switzerland and the oxford labs from which the birmingham manuscript was taken and this is what he showed look at this graph here now that's muhammad's life right there look at all these manchester this is just from one manuscript this is just the sauna text but from different pages of the sauna text take a look at the dates the radio cards in this one go way down to the 400s up to 550. muhammad wasn't born to 565. sorry 568. sorry 570. i'll get it on the third try he wasn't born here until here 570 all of these look at how they predate muhammad's life proving that these this this material was in existence long before muhammad which makes sense look at the birmingham folio surah 18 surah 19 surah 20 what's it to talk about it talks about the seven sleepers it talks about moses it talks about dual car nine who is alexander the great every one of these are borrowed techs all of these were in were around since the second century sorry except for dual economic that would have been 6 30 the early eight six uh the mid six sense early seventh century can you see all of these are earlier texts that they borrowed no wonder they're much later much earlier no wonder these are the texts that from which these are described and that's why i would suggest the carbon datings are really helping us but i'm not going to go with the carbon date i'll go with mike we need to go back to paleographical material that's a lot more secure but we got it coming and going that's what's lovely about this argument we got them both ways so four of the datings are from the four different labs note that these these all have 95 probability range when using the bell curve we know that the highest probabilities are near the center of the bars and not the ends therefore sauna b c and d manuscript pages were dated in leo the birmingham folio was dated in oxford all four sauna a examples dated at four separate laboratories completely predate muhammad the quran and islam that's why they're so devastating all the folios including the sauna a b c d and the birmingham folios predate the utmonic recession the first quran therefore something is seriously wrong so if the muslims are going to give them bring them forward just show them this graph could couldn't they have just written an old parchment an old parchment you mean an early parchment yeah that's what i meant okay in early parts but the problem is you're still going to have the same difficulty why would you hold it there for 100 years and not use it not when it's that valuable and why is it that all of them are dated that early okay okay solution dr barb durie comes up with this solution this is what he came up about a month ago there was something wrong with the carbon dating the parchment was being stored for up a long time that's what you're trying to say before using up to 200 years okay you go talk with dr martin durie about that the traditional dating of the quran is wrong the quran was really created much earlier sometime between 450 to 580 and the muhammad story was then attached to it much later or could this be a combination of the above my solutions i agree with what mardu is saying there's possibly a problem with carbon dating due to its inaccuracies due to the expensive nature of the animal skins it is highly unlikely that they would these skins were stored for a long time before their use there's no point to it for to begin with the traditional dating of the quran is probably at fault because it comes from us from the 9th century which is simply too late to be credible and since muhammad is not listed in the earliest dated folios this suggests that the quran is copied from borrowed material which would naturally predate muhammad the quran and thus islam and that makes sense where did it come from now let's go back the rc datings of the abcd well let's what i would like to say around you can read this later but what i would say is where is that first manuscript where are the first nine manuscripts more than that let's now look at the manuscripts today because if you have a problem with the earliest marriages what about the qurans we have on our hands today the arab quran i'm not talking about the translations let's look at the arab qurans the arabic crowns that we have today the arabic skeptical script is what we the razam this is getting back to your point the need to look at the radham now this is for those who don't speak arabic we have three doublesations called the fattah which is the ah sound the dhamma which is the u sound and the kasa which is the e sound but more than that notice if you look at this manuscript here from the 8th century notice it has no dots above and below the line and it has no fata dhamma or kasra okay this is only razam these are only consonantal words that's the son of manuscript here you have another example this is the topkape can you see it has no diacritical marks and it has no dhammakara so why is that important here's another one an early shiite quran this has no diacritical marks no nama kasra or fattah here are the 28 letters of the arabic alphabet when you look at the 28 letters there are six unique letters the aleph the kaf the lam the min the wow those are the six unique letters those ones you don't need any dots with okay all the other of the 22 of the 28 you need dots to understand them what do i mean by that so for the other 22 you have to have dots to know let's take that smiley face you put one dot above it and it becomes a noon you put another dot above it and it becomes atta you put a third dot above it and becomes a thaw now let's take that same find his face and put one dot below it becomes a ba you put another dot below and becomes a yeah so here you have no it could be five different letters that's why you need the dots none of these manuscripts have those dots so which means you have five different derivations per letter can you imagine what you do then when you put them into words let's look at those three smiley faces and put them together just those three smiley faces together with no dots you can get 19 different words but without the dots you've lost all 19 words okay therefore when you look at the variants you need to look and see what we're talking about now these are the ones that we have now this is haptune my colleague she now has 31 of these qurans that she is found in yemen in jordan in morocco looking around the marketplaces she's come up with 31 different arabic qurans not one not 2 but 31 these are them right here these are modern qurans you can buy these in the in the marketplace today okay all in arabic no translation when you look at them you will find that they come from 37 different readers these are the readers here these are their teachers who all come from this area here but these readers take a look at them when you look at them you will notice all the ones that we use today the huffs that i keep on talking about is from this man right down here look at his date you can't see it it's too far away he died in 805. that's the 9th century so all of these readers here every one of them are from the ninth eighth and ninth century none of them are from the seventh century and every one of them has a different quran and every one of them changes the quran this man here has 1900 differences between the quran here's and i'm looking at it's hard to read here or bill he has this one here kulum has 1700 difference hisham has 1300 difference even dubai has 140 difference here you have khalad has 2 2 000 differences here you have he has 5 000 differences if you add them all up together we we are now up to 60 000 differences between these different readings 60 000 difference that's what we're at right now we're probably going to get up to 80 to 90 000 by the time we're ended and we have arab scholars now working on this as we speak 60 000 differences we took these 26 of these qurans down to speaker's corner two years ago we almost didn't leave the corner we then took him down again last year last july they tried to stop us from leaving the corner go up on founder films you'll see what happened we had to protect them because they were so angry because muslims have never heard this before they have always heard there's only one quran and the quran is exactly the same in every country all over the world we have come up with 60 000 differences looking at 31 of the modern qurans today now let's take a look and see why they're different now most muslims just look at this one surah 1 ayah 4 and say see it's just malik versus maliki the owner versus the king is the same difference you need to look and see and uh this is going to take we have 70 of these we're not going to go through all of them but if you have time go through and see just how they change the text just with the diacritical marks in every case we god versus arbitrarily forgiving we or is it arbitrary that the sin is given here you have a difference in surah 2 i wanted to take you versus they took and have taken now do they take this place now or has it already been taken a take has been addressed into a plural form at a later text here you have the printed house in the wash from takaluna to yucca luna you say that abraham did this or they say let's go ahead and get there's a much more damaging ones coming up repelling versus defending completely different context here you have he versus we will remove here you have allah made sure she was taken care of by zakaria and here you and then said he zakaria took charge of her so did allah put zachary in charge of mayor or does zachary take charge himself that has that has huge significance for zakaria itself do the believers teach the book or they simply know the book well many people can know a book but they are not capable of teaching it so that changes that context now here you have it's up there because they change it from the plural form to a second masculine singular form who seeks their return so it doesn't even agree with the rest of the verse and so 3r136 the prophets simply fight or where they kill well if i was a prophet i'd rather fight than be killed i'd like to know which way i'm going to go so you can see how this really does change the meaning i know i'm right i see you there let me just go through these real quickly and every case you can see it changes the meaning now we have i'm just putting about 20 up here in the powerpoint we have over 70 we're gonna we there's no way we can get all 60 000 up there so what we so this is our final conclusions let's do this to ascertain where the quran came from we now know that it's not created we now know that it was not complete we know that it was full of errors muslims are looking we need to find a mid 7th century crown that's complete and unchanged those the five areas we looked at the second two compilations prove that there are two completely different er qurans even within the first 20 years of muhammad's death the sixth manager just proved that they are all late none of them are complete and they don't agree the crown we have today the two layers of sauna palm system shows that in between the seventh and eighth century it got changed and they still don't agree the crime we have today the four laboratories show us that much of the material that we have just on the side of manuscripts predates not only muhammad's life it predates the quran and it predates islam when we look at the 31 different qurans we know that even qurans today don't agree with each other and take a look every one of them goes back to the 8th and 9th century that means these mistakes have been there for over a thousand years and we've not been told why have muslims not told us this so what does this prove well in every case we know that the quran was created by men the quran was not sent down to muhammad it was not completed by utman it was intentionally changed it was finally compiled in 1924 the quran can be found in 31 different arabic texts even today which cast doubt on the quran now let's look at the bible oh i don't have it up here i'm sorry about that when you look at this and what i want to do now we've gone through an awful lot of material people ask how can we learn this material all of this material we are now teaching you you can come and join up and find out this we now have a text a course called the fander course it is now it starts in september and goes to april those of you who want to take that course i'm going to have a there's a list back here on that table there sign your name and please sign your email so i can read it and we will send you the registration it costs 265 for uh the whole year it comes to you every tuesday from nine o'clock to 11 o'clock in the morning where you come to your computer through zoom webinar you can we're in 21 countries we already trained up we've trained up 400 students in 21 countries already next year we already have 300 signed up we can have up to a thousand so there's meant there's plenty of places for you it will zoom right onto your computer then you get the you'll get from every lecture for every tuesday you will get and you will be able to keep but this material has not been taught in any seminary it's not been taught in any bible school it's much too dangerous to teach it in seminary and bible school but we want to make sure that you all get it so that you can learn it you can use it be careful how you use it this lecture and the one in the previous hour this is really very it's very confrontational and it's controversial muslims will attack you if you say this publicly so let us do it okay you need to learn it so you know it so what we're going to do a lot of the material that we're chaining is also apologetic how to defend the tax against us how to defend the attacks against the bible and how to defend against attacks against jesus christ that's the material you need to know the most we will also teach you the polemical material so that you feel happy but please be careful how you use it okay so if you do want to sign up just go to the paper there put your name in there and his email and then i will get you the registration yo p-f-a-n-d-e-r course and if you want to go up to the table up uh that's my table you'll see some uh if you want to just get one of my prayer cards on the back is founder films and the fender course but give email let me give give me your email today and i'll make sure i get all the material to you okay

Channel: Horizons International

Views: 42,430

Rating: 4.6431375 out of 5

Keywords: Jay Smith

Id: bhvusVmuARU

Length: 57min 26sec (3446 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 07 2018