Logical Fallacies of Islam

Pastor Gary wanted a talk that's gonna be much more practical so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna deal with FAQ frequently asked questions the ones that you're gonna get when you talk to Muslims and I hope you all do I hope all of you have the chance to talk to Muslims this that I find them to be the most engaging people to talk to now I've been doing it for 37 years but certainly I find Muslims are all asking the right questions more so than anybody else the questions they asked tend to always fall into two categories one is on the person of Jesus Christ and the other category would be on the Bible and those are the two categories I want to talk about I'm sure the ones you want to talk about and the only people who will talk about Jesus and the Bible are Muslims I find with other people they just walk away even when I bring it up and I say let's talk about Jesus Christ they usually walk away and I always tell my students always ask those two questions when you go up to a student or when you go up to Muslim ask them just two things I believe just say two things to them I believe that Jesus is God and I believe the Bible is the Word of God do you have an opinion and you're gonna get lots of opinion this is what we've been doing in London in England where I've been for the last twenty five years and every Sunday we go down to a place called speakers corner any of you know about speaker's corner okay a few of you have you any of you been to speakers corner Gary yet the very back did you ever get up on a ladder Gary oh dear well we should have had you up if you'd come when I was there every Sunday we get up on a ladder and I'm about as high as I am right now I feel right at home because I'm this high up just two steps these little kitchen Attalus that ladders that you have in your kitchen just so our heads are above the crowd and we take on sometimes hundreds at times we can even take on thousands of Muslims at a time and the most radical Muslims come to speaker's corner it's a magnet for radical Christian Muslims and the reason why is because most of your Muslims come from oral cultures they come from countries where they don't you don't get you give them a book they'll throw it away you give them a tract they'll probably tear it up they're not interested in reading tracts they're not interested in reading books they don't come from countries where they have an education occasional model like we have here in America that's based on books writing that essays in writing papers they here and then they memorize what they hear and because of that they love oral tree orality they love people that actually can speak and that's why they love videos more than anything else and that's why I've been doing videos since 2006 we did a survey back in 2006 on YouTube and at that time we counted 43,000 videos that were attacking Christianity and only 17 that were taking on Islam 43 thousand versus 17 guess who was ahead what was interesting though was almost all the videos that were attacking Christianity were always on those two subjects now there was some that were also not I shouldn't say all of them but there were some that were on certainly the church and its history and and some of the testimony of Christians around the world but by far enlarge they were all zeroing in on Jesus Christ and I always found that curious and I always want to know why are they so interested in Jesus Christ and as you go out and as you talk to Muslims almost the first question that comes up will be about the Trinity how many of you have that experience how did you answer it did you actually make sense that's a heresy right there don't ever do that again that is sub alien heresy right there because God is not father-son because you cannot separate the three but before him that be careful understood understood but don't use that they will hammer you with that that's a heresy we don't use that when in fact don't use any model every model that I've heard is heretical water steam ice just don't use them the best thing to do is use your Bible just go back to the Bible open up your Bible you're doing two things and let me tell me why when your work with Muslims usually when they want to hammer you on the Trinity it's because they want to find any in your armor they really want to try to overpower you and they know that you cannot answer it because very few Christians can define the Trinity and you also defend it in two minutes and that's all the time you're gonna get so most Christians do like this gentleman here father brother and what sale and father brother and son don't use those just because they all they'll run circles of you all around that and I'll even show you where that came from and they'll quote the scholar that first introduced it so stay away from those models and try to get right back to the Bible I'll tell you why it does two things it gets you back to where you feel where you want to be anyways because I don't care dilly squad about any of your opinions and you don't care diddly squat about my opinion and the Muslims don't care about our opinions what they want to know is can you define can you show me where the Trinity is in the Bible not the word don't even look there it's not there in the same token when you when they ask you where is the Trinity if it's such an important concept why is it not in the Bible ask the same question right back on their lap and say okay how do you define God in the way they define God is the he'd thought he'd means oneness it's a Arabic word so ask them find the word thou heed in the Quran it's not there now most Muslims aren't aware of that they know God is one they know he is they lead but they all say they all assume that they can find it in the Quran you can't find it in the Quran try it see if you can look at no Muslim has been able to find that word in same token we can't find Trinity for a very good reason it's nothing more than a theological concept which was rich basically created by Tertullian in the late second century about 180 to define what we see in the Bible now what I want to talk about the Trinity and what I want to ask and when Muslims ask to throw it at me there's one of two things you can do to help them out because Muslims are not really looking for an answer they know that you're not gonna give a good answer that they're gonna their be satisfied with so what you need to do is you need to play you need to play the very idea of the Trinity against them and one of the best things I have found is to ask them what are the names of God in their Quran there are 99 names for Allah and the three most popular names for Allah is al-rahman al-rahim Alba dude you don't have to remember them they'll know them ask them what's the very first sewer what's the very beginning of the very first surah and you'll see two the names right there in the Fatiha in the very first verse of the cover the Quran al Rahman al Raheem al what dude al de l'homme means the compassionate one although he means the merciful one al what dude means the loving one those are the three most common names the most important names for Allah because Allah can only be defined by his names they've never seen Allah they never he has never come to earth they've never had a relationship with him they've never seen him face to face therefore they're totally dependent on these names to describe him and these are his eternal names they have always existed you don't create names for yourself you will always have a name and so Allah has always had these names so ask them okay compassionate merciful loving good names good names there's a problem all three of those names require an object don't they am I correct you have to be compassionate to someone you have to be merciful to someone you have to be loving to someone am I correct you cannot have those names without an object so where was the object of Allah's compassion mercy and love before Adam and Eve were created whoo - two - two - we've got them and I've yet to see a Muslim that can answer that question in 37 years they've not thought through that if God is one a monad the no possibility for relationship there's no possibility that we can be made in His image because we're relational animals aren't we every one of us is compassionate every one of us is merciful we're all loving and the only way I can know that I'm loving is because I'm made in God's image Genesis chapter 1 verse 26 and 27 oh I love it since I made it in His image that's why I know that I'm relational that's why I know that I have love and that's why I know that as a human animal we are unique and distinct and we are made in God's image and that's the beautifulness because that means that the god that god whose image i made it is also relational which means God the Father has always loved God the Son God the son has always loved God the Holy Spirit can you now see we're relationship comes from and Muslims are also relational they are also compassionate loving and merciful so where do they get their love from unless they come on home to our God the triune God and what you have done you've just come in through the back door how long did I take me to do that two minutes and that's the beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ another question that comes up all the time is how could God have a son have you heard this one how could God have a son and of course when you ask them what do you mean God have is some well how could God God the Father marry the mother Jesus the son that's how they define it they have to do that because that's in the Quran in chapter 5 verse 1 1 6 in the Quran it's very simple that God the Father in fact what it is you have a question you have Allah speaking to it so who is Jesus in the Quran not my Jesus but certainly one in the Quran and he st. Teresa is it true that you and your mother are to be worshipped as God which implies that Mary's part of the Trinity now Gary do you teach that here at this church please say no did he say no have you heard anybody teach that at this church do you know of anybody in California that teaches that Mary is the mother of God please say no oh you have okay a heretical church but certainly not an evangelical church and not a good god-fearing and Bible believing Church we do not marry as a part of the Trinity now there are groups and you are correct in fact historically there are the call yridians there's a group there right there in the seventh century in the 8th century who possibly could have been the source for this problem because certainly in the Quran whoever put the Quran together and we're gonna get to that Pastor Gary wants me to unpack that for you a little bit tonight more to f'd little a little later on but whoever put the Quran together obviously must have borrowed this from another source and I think it's from this caller Rhydian group because they did believe that Mary was the mother they could have even gone from the Catholics who have who seem to have Mary everywhere all over their churches could be that that's where they got it from but I assume I assumed that they had never read the Bible whoever put the Quran together and they certainly hadn't talked to any good Christians because no Christian would put Mary up there as part of the Trinity so how could God have a son now the way to answer that is very simple you're gonna be my Muslim for tonight okay you've got a beard if you're perfect I need one so I need some of the beard you guys don't have beard sorry we'll go to the guy with a beard okay if you're a beard that means you're a religious man you're supposed to have about the size about the length of your arm hand it was shame on you you've lost your religiosity nonetheless you're gonna be up till tonight okay so Abdul let me ask you real quickly where are you from Bellflower are you a son of Bellflower oh darn here not gonna be any help for me then I need someone who really likes where they're from here's I've got with even better beard where are you from where are you from where was it built way Midway are you a son of Midway sure you are in you're proud of it right unlike this guy over here he doesn't know where he's from but you're proud that you are from Midway City am I correct now does that mean that you have a biological relationship from Midway that you were born from the ground of Midway absolutely not but you are sure that you are a son of Midway and that's all over the world you can ask any Muslim from any country where they're from and ask them are you a son of Cairo or are you a son of Egypt or are you son of Jordan or are you son of Pakistan and they will all say yes we are sons unlike this man right here they are proud to be there but in no notion do any of them consider themselves as biologically born from that environment more than that the Quran even accepts that in chapter 2 verse 177 it says in the quran that a traveller someone who's going from one place to another is a eben sabili eben Sybilla means a son of the road so in arabic it's perfectly legitimate to call someone or someone who is traveling a son of the word but no one reading that would assume that they were born from the ground of the road there's no biological relationship at all between the traveller in the road itself they relate to the road it's a relational title in arabic there are two words for son one is eben and the other is Waleed and while lead is biological eben is always relational so when Jesus says because yeah you have also been in Hebrew you can see that very much again you have very much the same thing in Hebrew when Jesus said he is the Ben Yahweh he is the son of God whenever he used that title nowhere did he ever intimate that he was a biological son of God he was he related to God as a son to a father and he has always been the son of God has he not he always will be the son of God am I correct which means there's nothing biological between God the Father and God the Son what it does say is that he if he relates to God as his father that means he inherits everything the father inherits which means if father is God so is the Sun and this is one of the four major titles divine titles that we see in the New Testament derived from the Old Testament and this is one of the reasons why Caiaphas in the Sanhedrin in chapter 26 of Matthew when he turns towards Jesus and asks them this very question are you the son of God are you the Messiah and Jesus says yes it it is as you say and then Jesus went ahead and said after that and you will see the Son of man coming in the clouds referring to dr. Daniel chapter 7 verse 14 which is a third title for divinity Messiah is the first son of God is the second son of man is a third by way that's the one the Muslims love the most that's the one Muslims will throw at you they will say ha ha you Christians see Jesus more often than any other 25 times in the New Testament referred to himself as son of man he's nothing more than a man see mr. Smith he's nothing more than a man and I love that when they bring that up because I take them right back to Matthew 26 to the trial by Caiaphas there in front of the Sanhedrin and I say look and see when Jesus used this title for himself in front of Caiaphas look at Caiaphas's reaction he tore his robe turned towards the Sanhedrin and said what further truth do we need this man has blaspheme because he knew that in Daniel 7:14 the definition of the son of man is right there the Son of Man is from everlasting to everlasting will have dominion over all tribes nation peoples and tongues folks whose from everlasting to everlasting but God himself am I correct exactly so in a sense what Jesus was saying in those three verses from 62 to 68 sup to 66 so those four verses he was saying to Caiaphas I am God I am God I am God three times he was saying it Muslims will ask you where does Jesus ever say I am God take them to Matthew 26 just open up your Bible and you will see three times Jesus saying I am God to a Jew he was saying I am God not to an American because Jesus never spoke English he would not have used it in English he would have said in Hebrew now the fourth time in one of the best places I'm doing two things at once I'm killing two birds with one stone the other place where Jesus claimed to be God was in John chapter 8 verse 58 in John 8:58 he's there in the temple he's speaking Hebrew because he was if he's in the temple he would course be speaking Hebrew and they were questioning him and says how could you know Abraham you're not even 50 years old and jesus replied before abraham was yahweh yahweh he was using God's holy name he was using God's unique name he was using God's eternal name and this is why when he used that name that is the name that Moses needed that is the name that Moses wanted before he went down to Egypt to bring back the Israelites he said to God what is your name I need to know your name so I they will know who's God I I am representing when I bring them back out of Egypt and that's the name Jesus use right there in the temple before abraham was Yahweh in Greek I go Amy in English I am Who I am I am that I am can you see now why it's so important that you know how to answer these questions real quickly but don't just stop there by us ask answering the questions show them why this is important that's a brilliant question you asked about the Trinity because then your God is absolutely hopeless your God is a monad nothing more than that your God is not only dependent on his names his names are dependent on us on our creation so what was he before Adam and Eve were created where was he in fact that's a good question where was Allah have you ever seen Allah has Allah ever entered time and space see they always wonder how is it that our God can enter times how can God come to earth have you heard that question and if he was on earth if God did come to earth who was taking care of the universe who kept the universe running while he was on earth now you can see they've confused the Trinity again and they assumed that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all three came down to earth in the form of Jesus and that when he so he came he was first God the Father then he became God the Son all three wrapped up into one Godhead and then he took he then returned back up to heaven as God the Holy Spirit all three that's why they even asked the question who is running the universe while God was on earth because the way they look at God there is no triune God doesn't exist God cannot act as three yet one and so they're imposing onto us their view of God and that's why they asked the question that's why you need to help them understand go right back to scripture again go right back to Scripture and show where over and over again God was coming to earth at the very beginning God was on earth that was God walking and talking in the cool of the day in Genesis chapter 3 verse 8 and 9 that was God calling out where are you now if God was walking he had better have a pair of legs if he was talking and calling out he better have a lone pair lungs and certainly a mouth do you see the problem if he was not I did not take on human form then how could he how could he even be in the garden calling out to Adam and Eve where are you what's interesting is take a look at those two little verses in chapter 3 and you can almost plug in a number of things about God right there first of all you can see that God is able to enter time in space can the Muslim God Allah enter time in space know at no point has Allah ever come to earth which suggests to me then that the God of the Bible can do anything he wants ooh da da da whereas the god of the Quran cannot if God cannot come to earth and he's not own a bit omnipotent and Muslims have limited God and I say to Muslims don't ever in my presence say God can't come to earth maybe your God can't come to earth maybe Allah cannot come to earth then your gods too small get a bigger God we got him his name is Jesus Christ come on home it's so easy because what if they're saying and I remember I did a debate where this came up and that was the very first question in the debate right there in Russia in Kazan and they they're the the clerics who were debating me at that time they said mr. Smith Allah who walk but God is the greater God is the greater but please mr. Smith please don't say this infinite God this God who is so great took on human form and corrupted himself as a human and I remember turning to my translator a because I don't speak a word of Russian I said teach let's just say to him shame on you he didn't want to do that I said no you tell him shame on you do not ever say in one sentence a little walk but God is the greater but he cannot become a man please don't say that in my presence because you've just taken away his own impotence you've taken away his greatness my god can become a man anytime he wants and he did so right through history he was there wrestling with Jacob you better have a pair of legs you better have a pair of hands if you're gonna wrestle he was there leading the children of Israel as a cloud during the day see he doesn't have to only take on human form he can take on any form he wants a cloud during the day and a pillar of fire during the night he was in the burning bush with Moses oh that's a good one you can use because that's the bridge you can go right into the Quran and go to chapter 20 of the Quran because there's the same story in the Quran see the Quran interestingly is a book that is borrowed story after story after story it has borrowed most of the material good 70% of the material is borrowed from other sources and we know exactly where they borrowed them well what's fascinating is when you look at that story just open up and help Muslims go to it and say listen now I'm gonna show you two things about that story that you need to that you need to answer me first and foremost as Moses was coming close to the bush a voice from within the bush in verse 10 says Moses take off your shoes you want to holy ground now hold on a minute can there be holy ground without God no by definition if it's holy gods they're only where God is can it be holy right can't be holy where you are can't be only where I am can't be holy where you are only where God is can it be holy so that's assumes therefore that God was there if they don't like that go to verse 14 because then in verse 14 the voice in the bush then says truly it is I am Allah who is speaking to you can anybody take on the name of Allah but God Himself according to Islam absolutely not so here you have a voice in the bush claiming that that place is holy a voice in the bush claiming to be God so ask your Muslim was God in that bush they have to say yes if they say no well then then you're gonna have to tear out that story you can't do that to the crown on pain of death you do not desecrate the Quran so immediately can you see what we've asked which means that was God in the bush that Bush is on earth that incident happened in 1400 BC and if God could come down to earth in 1400 BC why in the world are they so confused or have our upset if God came down 2,000 years ago and spent 33 years on earth so you can use the Quran to your advantage say listen we don't have that problem in our Bible our God can come down over and over and over and over again he came down over again to woo his people back to himself he sent prophet after prophet and then he finally came himself in the form of the Son of God Jesus Christ the Messiah died on the cross and rose again who they don't like that that's when they really get upset the crucifixion if you look at the Quran it's very clear that there is no crucifixion in chapter 4 verse 157 no crucifixion for they killed him not they thought it was so another was given his image and truly he was not crucified that's what it says in chapter 4 157 so what are we gonna do with that let me give you five answers real quickly five things you can say quickly about that verse first of all you can look at another verse chapter of 19 verse 33 in chapter 19 by the way are we being filmed for this this is all being filmed so if anybody I do speak fast so just put your pens down you can get the film afterwards and you can go at speed it down LACMA or just put it down so it's really nice and slow that's what my Korean students always do and I have a beautiful baritone I wish I could speak like that but that you can go ahead and slow it down and then just pick up all these verses as we go through so there in chapter 19 verse 33 Jesus is his name he's there as a little baby and he's there in the crib and he says to the crowd who's asking him where he came from he said blessed be me the day I was born the day I die and the day I rise again so there's Jesus referring to his birth death and resurrection that confronts chapter 4 verse 157 doesn't it it's a contradiction Muslims cannot understand that so what they do is they try to say oh yeah what he's talking about the future well of course he's talking about the future he's a baby that's not happened yet he is gonna die in 33 years they would like to say this is a future rendering when he comes back another time there's nothing in the verse to help them with that you can see they have to impose on the text to get that out of it and what's more in chapter 3 verse 55 God is saying to you sir I will cause you to die Metallica that's the word in heat and in Arabic muta mu means person double tower mentioned cut to die cut me you I will cause you to die it is as clear as day in Arabic the only problem is every translation you read now has changed that too I will cause you to sleep but any Arab speaker knows mcauliffe ik is always die that does not mean sleep in Arabic and they've had to change in since the 1930s because of the pressure from the government's saying we cannot have got Jesus dying we cannot have Jesus dying because that's an internal contradiction between chapter 3 verse 55 and chapter 4 verse 157 woohoo I'm so glad we don't do that with our Bible can you imagine us changing the text changing that changing the verses so that we can get our theology correct thank goodness and we're not talking about translations here because the Arabic still retains is still there Metallica is still there in my Bible right here now you'll see that there will be other questions about Jesus Christ but let's stick with this crucifixion that's the first problem internal contradiction between chapter 4 chapter 19 in chapter 3 number 2 the second problem with the crucifixion if Jesus did not die what are you gonna do with the historical the historical the historical record the historical record is very clear every historian from that period did know that Jesus died just take a look at the three greatest historians that we look at when we look at the person of Jesus Christ Dallas and phlegon they're both they're both Greek historians that were debating this in 52 ad that's just a little about 20 years after Christ's death they were talking about that death they mentioned that when Christ died the Sun went dark and the earth shook so here's Greek historians that had no reason to admit our journey to support the Christian record and yet they are admitting that Jesus did die you have fallacy phlegon then you have Tacitus Tacitus as a Roman historian Tacitus did not like Christians no he didn't he had nothing good to say about Christians in his annals but what's fascinating does talk about the death of Jesus and he mentions that the day that he mentions not only that Jesus died but he mentions that it happened under the authority of Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius that's why we know it was in 33 AD because of Tacitus Josephus a Jewish historian talks about the death of Jesus and curiously mentions the the fact that Christians thought he rose again that's the only non biblical record we have for the resurrection so here you have Greek Roman and Hebrew or Jewish historians all supporting the death of Jesus in fact the question I always ask my Muslim friends is can you find me one historian just one from the first second third fourth fifth six up until the seventh century that denied the crucifixion of Jesus not one the only reference to the fact that Jesus did not die is in Chapter four 157 in the Quran from the seventh or as we're gonna find out probably eight or ninth century then you then understand why not only do you have internal contradictions you have historical contradiction what about the eyewitness account who was at the foot of the cross weren't there eyewitnesses there yeah there was John was there wasn't he John was the favorite disciple of Jesus John had been with Jesus for three years he was at the foot of the cross Jesus spoke to him would not John have known who his Christ was would he have not known who the man on the cross was absolutely don't you think he would have said something if it was another man and what about the mother of Jesus she had known Jesus for 33 years a mother knows her own son and I don't hear anywhere in the reference there or anything that you mother that geez Ameri had any doubt that that was her son on the cross and what about the man on the cross wouldn't he have said something you got the wrong man I'm not him help me no look and see what he said look at what he said on the cross Father forgive them for they know not what they do into your hands I commend my spirit that does not sound the wrong man that does not like sound like the man who is not guilty that sounds like I'm sorry that's not the right word he was not guilty to begin with your crowd but it does not sound like the man who was due he willingly went to the cross he knew that he was to be on the cross and that's why he was going home to be with his father but he had something to do first before he went home then we get to the fourth problem and that is Jesus himself what are you gonna do with it sir if he allows another one to take his place doesn't die on the cross but then three days later goes into the upper room introduces himself to disciples as if he was it claiming to be the man who died and rose again a week later even when Thomas questioned and he showed the holes in his hands and the holes in his feet what kind of profit lies like that not my Jesus my Jesus doesn't lie like that they've got the wrong Jesus they think that that's that's the historical record and then fifthly and this is the hardest one for Muslims to know what to do with and this is the moral argument somewhat like to set the fourth one if Allah took the image of another man and put Jesus's image on him and let that man die in jesus's place and then told no one about it and for 600 years told nobody about it what kind of God is that that's a deceitful God that is not the God of the Bible I don't see anywhere in the Bible where if God is deceitful to you not my god they've got the wrong God and it looks like they've got Allah because that's the God of the Quran take a look and see how much that these Jesus that God was deceived in fact that's quite normal for Allah to do in fact it says in the Quran that God doesn't his above deception there are a number of references I could give them to you right here where God is deceitful chapter 3 verse 54 chapter 8 verse 30 chapter 10 verse 21 chapter 3 verse 28 all of these are the deceitfulness of God see fulness of God the deceitfulness of Allah that Allah is above deceit he cannot be held accountable to the same standard that we are held accountable because he is God alone which suggests that we're talking about two different gods aren't we the god of the Quran is not the god amount of the Bible the god of the Quran has nothing to do with the God of the Bible and I never I never want to hear people say that we share the same God I will have nothing to do with that God and the reason why I'm coming down so hard on the crucifixion is because the crucifixion is what the Muslims attack us with they don't contact they don't confront us with the resurrection because they don't believe that there was any resurrection if God did it if Jesus didn't die of course he didn't rise again he was always alive so we've got to deal with the crucifixion I know you've been told that we spent must spend all our time with the resurrection but that's with atheists and that's with humanists with Muslims you've got to confront the crucifixion so just use these five points against them now we've come to the part that Gary wanted me to get into and that is the problem with the Quran itself this book right here Gary I didn't ask permission to bring in sin though in the room is that okay it's not gonna hurt anybody it's pretty small I keep it smaller than my Bible you can see why in a few minutes this is the book that's causing all the problems and this is the book that we've got to confront and this is the book that we are confronting and what we're finding out about this book is amazing now there's some stuff that I'm gonna introduce tonight you've never heard before and the reason why is because I've never heard of it before until just recently and I spent 37 years confronting this book I did my doctoral thesis on this book and yet when I was doing my doctorate when I was doing my Master's also on the Quran we never had the material that we have today we never had this kind of material to use against the Quran question you may ask us why even talk about the Quran Gary could I get some water maybe a glass of water so I can just hear or can I use this just okay it's no arsenic in is there so when you look at the Quran you need to do a comparison between these two books real quickly and when you look at these two books you can see they really are completely two different categories of literature we would never make the claims about the Bible that the Muslims make about the Quran it's so let's start with their claims the Quran they say is eternal who knows why they say it's eternal does anybody know the reason any idea second in tablets up in heaven and that's in the Quran itself isn't it in chapter 85 verse 22 so it's an internal claim it's not something that they have made up it actually is internal to the Quran the Quran makes that claim so they've got to adhere to it in chapter 85 verse 22 it talks about these eternal tablets now by definition if something is eternal does that not mean it's correct it's co-equal to God it's a conflict isn't it this is a duality only God is eternally am I correct I've always been told that only God is eternal so how can you have an inanimate object a tablet from which this book is derived that is Co eternal with God that means that means that claim in chapter 85 verse 22 is committing shirk shirk is the Arabic name for adding or putting alongside another with God anytime you equate a thing or a person with God that is shirk someone who does that is a mushrik the people who do that are Musa Coonan we are mushrikuna that's the name they give us because the way they say we have elevated a prophet Jesus to the status of divinity therefore we're motioning we have committed shirk well the Quran has committed shirk and there was a group in the 10th century called the Methuselah it's who did say that they actually looked at that verse and they said we've got to tear that out that can't remain because how can you have a thing co-equal with God how can you have something equal Oh only God is eternal and that's one of his definitions that defines him if you're gonna have a tablet that's go eternal you have committed we have to tear that out when this they brought this to mom UN's Court in the 9th century the Kaja tights who were the ones who were an ascendancy at that time destroyed killed every one of them at the slice that's what they do in Islam when they don't like something they don't just sit there and debate it they actually kill you it's very clear when you leave Islam you get killed it's called an apostate law and anybody who's an apostate must be put to death and that's in the Quran chapter 4 verse 89 he who leaves Islam kill him very simple every school of law the hon Bali the Hanafi the Maliki and the Shafi school all four schools of law dictate that anybody who leaves Islam is an apostate apostates must be executed the only difference between the four schools as which day you do it some say immediately like the hon Bali School the Hanafi and the Maliki school say there must be in three days and the Safi school gives ten days that's it but you must be executed you must be executed they do not take criticism they do not take rejection and that's why it's fascinating that those who actually brought this up as a problem in the tenth century were all killed off all destroyed and then the college a tide shut down HT HOD HT HOD means to interpret the Scriptures and therefore no one could interpret Scripture then for a thousand years until 1905 when finally Muhammad Abduh in Cairo at al-azhar university reopened HD HOD it is now open today and so we're permitted to how to critique the Quran we're permitted now to actually ask these kind of questions and we you have all the right in the world to ask Muslims what about that verse look at that verse does that not create a duality is that not suggest therefore there's someone else besides God is the eternal and it's your book so that's the first claim they make that it is eternal secondly the second claim they make is that it was sent down to a man named Muhammad between 610 and 626 32 or 22 years so for 20 years 610 to 622 where he was revealed this revelation came to him in Mecca and then 622 to 632 the last ten years this revelation came to him Mandino two cities Mecca Medina young the Quran does talk about Gabriel quite a few times the right there in chapter 19 that's Gabriel that comes to Mary gibreel is his name in Arabic so the source is the Quran itself but the stories about Gabriel would be the hadith yes doesn't say too much it just says that he talks to Mary and says to her that he's gonna have a he's gonna have a righteous son that's interesting that's in chapter 19 verse 19 and in verse 20 he says to Mary you will be a virgin when this happens truly you were a virgin so that's beautiful because that's a bridge you can use to look at why the birth of Jesus is unique so Gabriel is in the Quran gible with the name that would be but also Jibril is also known as the spirit the Spirit of God to Allah now put that on your head so is he a spirit or is een angel melaka both n there's a lot of confusion in the quran don't ask me to explain it ask muslims let them have to deal with that I'm so glad I don't have to defend the Quran now let's get back to this thing so he is eternal he is sent down - I mean the Quran is eternal the Quran is sent down to a man named Muhammad for between 610 and 632 22-year period but Muhammad curiously did not write it down during his lifetime and the reason they say is because he could not read or write is that a good excuse have any of you and does anybody here read and write Arabic okay I don't speak Arabic but I read and write Arabic and it took me two weeks to read and write Arabic there are only 28 letters in the Arabic alphabet seven of them are unique all the others require either dots above or below the lines 22 of them sorry six of them are unique the other 22 required dots it's not difficult to learn it's not a very difficult script so Muhammad would have had 22 years to learn the script he already spoke it fluently he was Arab he grew up with Arabic to read and write it would have not been at all difficult why didn't he learn to read and write it if this was his only remit this was his major remit in life this was the one thing he was supposed to do is receive this book and get it written down he did not so when he died the Quran still had not been written down it had been memorized by many of the Companions it was written on stones on bones on leaves on bark and all that I know because of Al Behati chapter 6 or volume 6 hadith number 509 and 510 so here you have a profit suppose a prophet who has ruined this eternal tablet that was then sent down to him piecemeal by the angel Gabriel given to him in two different cities he forgets to write it down and then dies in 632 unwritten which then means the first calif that comes after him up a bucket has given that responsibility and abu bakr takes on that responsibility and he then takes the scribe of muhammad so muhammad had a secretary isn't that interesting so why didn't the secretary write it down while he was living isn't that the job of secretaries ask your Muslim questions these I have yet to see a Muslim that can explain this to me either Muhammad was inept or he was such a proud man that he thought that he didn't need to write it down but that's rather clumsy with God's greatest revelation and the final revelation on top of that so Abu Bukka two years after Muhammad's death had xiety been tobot go and find out everybody that had memorized and write down what their memory was and then write down what he found on stones and bones and bark stones bones and bark and put the first what we know the first copy the first recension of the Quran together so that was done in 632 to 630 for two years after Muhammad died that copy was then given to one of the wives of Muhammad her name was huff so she put it under her bed why we don't know it's obviously she didn't want to read it if this was the greatest revelation finally written down why don't you think she would have been curious enough to read it what we do know is that 20 years later at the time 652 then the third Calif comes to power you Abba Bukka dies umar takes over from 634 to 644 he is killed booth Minh the third Calif takes over in 64 time sorry 644 and he lubes to 656 now in 652 word has come to him that there are a multiplicity of qur'an's that don't agree with the one that is given to Hafsa but how does he know since he doesn't have half sister on it's under her bed all this time nonetheless they know that there are disagreements so he says okay I want you to get off sis copy so he has a demon tubby go and get huffs us coffee one of the wives of Muhammad she bring gives it to them so this is 20 years later and he says take that copy and rewrite it again why do you need to rewrite it if it's already written and if you have any disagreement amongst you there was four of them that were given that responsibility zài he meets up with the secretary Allah sue bed in a hadith three others the four of them were to rewrite the Quran again using Huff's as copy and if there were any disagreements they were to do rewrite it in the court I she dialect now none of you speak Arabic here but if you did speak Arabic you know they merely there's a problem there because dialectic differences by definition we can't require dots above and below the line that's how you get dialectic differences it might even more so they require vowel ization the Dhamma the sound sorry the Dhamma the sound which is a little curly cube of the line they Fatah the asan which is a little slight sliver above that above the line and the kisara the e sign which is a little stick below the line ooh those are the three vowels in Arabic that's it only three vowels everything else is continental constant after consonant after consonant so how can you have dialectic differences in the 7th century when there were no diacritical marks in a seventh Center there was no violations those weren't invented till the eighth the ninth century a hundred to two hundred years later are you following me now I'm not many of you I can see I'm from losing all of you that's alright you don't really have to know this people like me have to know this because this is what we're hammering the Muslims they have no idea how to answer that and yet there it is write it in dot if you have any dialectical differences write it in the Qureshi dialect the reason why no one gets this isn't the reason why even the Arabs certainly don't want to talk about it is because that portion that story comes from a man named Abu Hadi in the late 9th century that's two hundred and forty years later none of it that we know about the Quran comes from the seventh century we know nothing about the Quran from the seventh century there's no writing whatsoever about any Quran at all in the same century that the Muhammad lived it's all what they thought happened two hundred and forty years later 870 redacting it back to 632 and 652 can you see a problem here you're starting to see the problem that's rising now so they write the Quran in the quarter she died late then Ruth Minh goes and takes all the other manuscripts of the Quran and he burns them does that bother any of you why do you burn manuscripts any idea to get rid of what evidence anything that disagrees am I correct so obviously there must have been something that disagreed otherwise what did he burn am I correct Muslims they strenuously try to deny that no no that's not what he was burning no no these are nothing more than dialectical differences that he was burning there were no dialectical divet okay okay these are nothing more than different ways of reading it there is no way to read it if you don't have any ways to delineate the readings that doesn't come in for another 100 to 200 years and every time they make an excuse we hammer them that's why no Muslim will debate me on this anymore they dare not debate us on this they cannot debate us on this and we're just getting started folks this is only the few of the first problem so once they do that then booth Minh then Commission's the one copy to be made into several copies to one copy to be sent into every province of his kingdom now when you look at a map you will see that there were nine provinces at the time of worth money Basra podded Damascus Jerusalem Cairo Alexandria Aden Herod and Nyssa port did you count nine I counted nine nine nine qur'an's two nine cities when I was learning Islam and when I was getting my master's and doing my doctorate I was only told there were four currents - four cities Bazar Baghdad Damascus and Medina that's it that's what all we was told I had no idea that there are actually nine cities at the time of Whitman that means they have to find wheat they have to show us therefore nine currents from the time of Whitman because you're only talking about 1400 years ago that's not very long ago is it when you're talking about manuscripts remember these are not these are not papyrus none of these are papyrus these are vellum these are parchment these are manuscripts these are kotas --is that are written on animal skin animal skin is durable if you have any doubt take a look at what we have four parts of an envelop when it comes to the biblical manuscripts look and see what we've got in the British Library come to London where I've been living for the last 25 years go look at the British Library and you'll see the city Atticus right there which part of our tour room we go people through the British Museum in the British Library you'll see the city Atticus the entire New Testament from the time of the 4th century between 325 and 350 AD that is 300 years before the Quran it is as pristine today as the day was written there's no blemish in it it's a beautiful book right next to it is the Alexandria's the Alexandrian is is both the old and the New Testament from the 5th century that's 200 years before the Quran if we could come up with those two manuals just in the British Library you want to go down to the Vatican and you have the Vaticanus which is again the New Testament much like the cine Atticus from the fourth century though they're known as the three metropolitan codices they are all four three two four hunts are three to four hundred years before the Quran what's fascinating is we can come up with three hundred and sixty-five manuscripts of the New Testament alone either partial or complete before the six entry all we're asking the Muslims is one just one of those nine from the seventh century one manuscript from the mid 7th century complete and unchanged that's all I'm asking is that too much to ask absolutely not you mentioned the Birmingham folios do you know the dates for them 568 to 6:45 when was Mohammed born 570 died in 632 okay what's the problem with that manuscript right there he's talking about the Birmingham folio so there's just two folios from Sir 18 19 and 20 which was discovered in London I'm sorry in Birmingham but it was discovered by carbon dating by in the oxford lab in 2015 6:58 I'm sorry 568 to 645 do you see the problem with that you notice no muslim scholar has supported those dates why do you think well Mohammed was there in 570 no remember what did I say when was the cron written down in his final form 652 so if the latest date of these carbon dating is the very latest date is 645 that's seven years before 652 you can't have a manuscript or even folios that predate Earthman and the only ones who got all over the all up in arms got so excited about what's the BBC Western scholars who didn't know the dates for Mohammed that's why Muslim scholars have to begin very silent they haven't said anything about it gets even worse than that what's your name Greg it gets even worse than that Greg if you want to look and see what there's not just the Oxford lag there's also the laboratory and keel the Oxford lob there's also the laboratory in Lille and there's also the the lab in Zurich four different labs all in Europe they have now looked at the sauna manuscript which is even older than the Birmingham folios in fact the Birmingham folios are supposedly from the sauna manuscript and they've taken a look and they've done burr Murray they've done carbon dating on all four laboratories guess what the date they have for those carbon dating 's every one of them is prior to 5:50 every one and the latest date for all of them is 5:50 they go all the way back to 443 443 to 550 Mohammed was even born to 570 all four of those labs the carbon-dating z' for those manuscripts are before Muhammad's life before the Quran was puts we've even begun the Gumby Quran was grunt begun in 610 before the Quran was finished the Quran was finished in 652 before Islam even became do you see the problems be careful with carbon dating we would never use carbon dating z' for our manuscripts cuz there's such they're so inexact but more than that the fact that these three twofold these three surahs that you're talking about 18 19 and 20 look at the stories that are in those three sewers you have the story of Moses at the burning bush you have the story of the Seven Sleepers in Ephesus and you have the story of dual cutter nine who is Alexander the Great now any of these are none of these are unique to the Quran are they they're all borrowed but those stories would have all predated the Quran one day so even if you went with the carbon dating that means these are all older than the Quran because the stories are older if you're borrowing that means they were there beforehand oh I love it it just makes my job so easy so be careful of any type of scientific evidence that goes against what we're now finding out with paleographic else evidence now Greg just continue on from that can you then see why Muslims have now kept quiet about these new findings in Kiel in Zurich in Lille and also in Oxford it's always in fact it's public information in that the people that are putting it public don't want their names to go with it because there and they know that they could be they could have death threats it's published though it's right out there but let's continue on regardless of the Parvin datings and the carbon dating czar so in exact no one's using them anymore let's go back and let's find out what we do know what do we know about these nine manuscripts we can't find any of them however we can find six of them that do not come from the seventh century but the six oldest manuscripts that do exist in the world today does anybody know what the six are or even one of the six are the sanno that's one that's in Yemen no not the Birmingham that's just to for good folios topkapi in Istanbul Turkey the Petro pollen tests in Paris this man's good oh you took my course okay all right well then you're a good student if you remembered all these so that's three of them you're almost at your halfway there what's the one in London the mutt you okay my in London and what's there's one more there's one more real famous one in Cairo that's the Hussein not so famous but you're missing the most famous and that's the Tashkent one the summer gun in Tashkent Uzbekistan so you have the top copper which is in Turkey you have the Stas the summer gun which is in Tashkent you have the metal which is in London the petrol pollens which is in Paris the huseyni which is in Cairo and then the best one my favorite one is the Sanaa which is in Yemen the most new the newest one that was discovered in just 1975 when they were washing out the dome over the mosque there in Sanaa they found a trapdoor they opened the trapdoor in thousands or hundreds maybe not there are hundreds of manuscripts fell to the ground which is not uncommon whenever Quran start to deteriorate they hide them up in the mosque domes and they just leave him up there and they forget them these had all been forgotten most of them were not very old but the ones that they could the ones that were the most exciting were a number of very very old manuscripts they had no diacritical marks they had no vowel ization proving that they were probably from the 8th or 9th or possibly 10th century but they couldn't read them because there was no diacritical mark so they had to fly down three German scholars dr. GERD Prynne dr. Vaughn both MA and dr. Aulick they flew them down in 1981 to look at these manuscripts and to film them and they filmed them immediately because they realized that these are the oldest manuscript that they'd ever come across it was using the hijazi script which is a much much older script it had they had no diacritical marks they had no vowel ization which was to be expected they pictured every page page by page and the Yemeni government overheard what they were saying and they confiscated all their micro films and they did not release those micro films until 1997 upon which I went to German to talk to them and looked at them and I say gave me some of the facts similes of what they had found and boy has it become juicy now we'll get into that but let's continue with these six manuscripts what do we know about these six manuscripts we didn't know too much until recently because we had no access to these six manuscripts they were finally we were finally given access not us but that Muslim scholars dr. Todd at the college and dr. Eggman and his son aloo two of their world's foremost Muslim scholars on the Arabic text were given access in 2002 and for five years they looked at these manuscripts they studied all six of them they did forensic testing on him and they came up with their conclusions in 2007 that was printed up in 2009 he was translated into English in 2013 I then got hold of it in 2014 and I quickly challenged dr. Shah Pahlavi to a debate on the six manuscripts we did that in September of 2014 and it's been up there for years now and all the damage was done within the first 50 minutes of that debate the reason why is that this is the first time we were able to look at that manuscript and what we found out is that that those manuscripts and what we found out is that not one of those six manuscripts is from the 7th century not one of them not one of them are these nine that were sent to nine different cities what's more not one of them was complete and most devastating not one of them agreed with each other and not one of them agreed completely with this book right here this is the modern go on this is the Huff's text so where did this book come from anybody know where this book comes from Cairo Egypt you are correct this is the Kyrene text this is the huffs text now how many of you knew this before tonight you did because you've been following me and you've been my students the huffs texts is the canonical text of the Quran that I have in my hand today this text was only chosen in 1924 that's 94 years ago in Cairo because there in Cairo in the standard in the high schools they were so many there's such a multiplicity of Arabic currents there was 37 different Arabic currents no notice I'm not saying translations I'm saying Arabic Quran so these are the original text there was 37 different Arabic Quran that they were using the students were using that they could not have standardized tests because there are so many differences we have already counted 60,000 differences between the 37 because we have 31 of them in our possession today we have salvaged 31 of them in London cotton Tosh is the one that is responsible for that from Turkey and we have our Arabic scholars looking at them and they've already found 60,000 differences back in 1924 it was obvious something need to be done there was such a multiplicity of different currents so they asked al azhar university they're considered to be the greatest Islamic University in the world today to choose one of the 37 and they chose the one called Huff's who is Huff's Huff's is a student who died in 796 late 8th century that's a hundred and forty-four years after Muhammad never knew Mohammed came from Kufa didn't even live where Mohammed lived lived hundreds of miles away and hundreds of years later and it was his text that was chosen as the official text for all the high schools in Cairo in 1924 what did they do with all the other texts they took them all they took them to the Nile and they drowned them they're still in the Nile today the Nile River this time they didn't burn them they didn't aren't they drowned them so whenever you find a Quran that doesn't agree you either burn it or drown it that was done 94 years ago by 1936 they realize that what they had done in Cairo was so successful because now they could get standardized tests that they decided to make it nationwide so all of Egypt then was given the huffs tax and it was called known as the Farouk text named after King Farouk who became King in 1936 to 1952 but that was just a gypped in 1985 in Saudi Arabia they saw what was happening in Egypt and they realized that that was so successful in Egypt they wanted to make this worldwide so King Fahd the king at that time in 1985 took the Huff's text and standardized it and canonic canonized it as the official text for all currents all over the world that was only 33 years ago which means some of you in this room are older than the Quran who - - - - put that under your hat and yet the Muslims tell us the crown is eternal the Muslims tell us it was sent down to a man named Mohammed the Muslims tell us that it was compiled at the time of Othman the Muslims tell us it has never changed the Quran we have today's exactly out that one in heaven can you see from what I've just told you in the last half-hour that we can destroy the Koran and every one of those pronouncements and it's only taken me 30 minutes to do it and all of you understand what I've said I'm not even got into the nitty-gritty I'm not even got in to where the differences are not even got in to how many variants they are but we're gonna come up with something in November that's gonna destroy even more I can't tell you too much about it even Gary is why he wants me to say much about it what we now are doing is looking at the original canonical texts that means the actual not the canonical that's not the right word continental the continental text that's the original text with no diacritical marks with no violation we have now pictures of over 4000 variants within the six major manuscripts we have not shown them to the world we have not done like with like showing every one of the manuscripts there are thousands of erasers words entire sentences that have been erased there are thousands of insertions words phrases sentences paragraphs that have been inserted at a later date there are thousands of coverings and tapings where they've tape and take over entire portions of the Quranic text covering where they have covered over entire sentences once you love to pick it up to see what they're covering at times they've covered and written over top a completely different sentence thousands of these four thousand to be exact these were going to introduce worldwide in November it'll be the first time that Muslims will be able to see them and what we're doing is we're taking slide by slide every variant and putting it next to the Huff sticks showing exactly where they change so even you who do not read Arabic you can just visually see the differences then we'll show you what they're each one says and then we'll show you how it's changed the text and how it's changed the theology this will be the first time that Muslims all over the world will have to pay attention this is going into a software that you can get on your own computer you will have access it's called Quranic gateway it's been put out by rubber zacharias ministries we're the ones that are doing the work for him I'm not doing it I'm the only the one that's actually doing the comparisons but can you see what this is gonna do to the Quran in just a few months no Muslim will be able to say that that Quran comes from heaven or from Mohammed or from Whitman or even from the first thirteen centuries the only thing they can say is the Quran we have in our hand today is only 94 years old Prince Phillip in England is older than that Quran and the canonical Quran that one that every Muslim is using around the world many of you in this room are older than it thank God we don't have this problem Gary over to you you

Channel: Hosanna Christian Fellowship of Bellflower

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Keywords: hosanna, hosanna christian fellowship, save now, quran, dr. jay smith, Islam, quran vs bible, FAQ, FAQs, muslim, moslem, muslim faith, bible, logical fallacies of islam

Id: RXtxWm4f49A

Length: 67min 2sec (4022 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 13 2018