The Queue | Doublelift & Svenskeren

[Music] hello welcome to the queue a new podcast series hosted by me James - Patterson now that the finals are set for Detroit I've sat down with cloud9 Spence Karen but first teamliquid doublelift is here to talk about their historic run mm thank you for joining me glad to be here all right so you're on the verge of doing what no other team has done in the LCS looking for the fourth consecutive title in LCS history and we're gonna dive into that matchup what it would mean for the org in a bit before we get there I want to start with something perhaps a little abstract I want to work through a concept and an idea that concept being the best what does it mean to be the best in anything so first let's just start there in no uncertain terms abstractly what does it mean to you to be the best at something I think just that no one is above you I'd say like no one has a higher status than you at something and yeah like I think this concept of being the best is something that like I probably subconsciously think about a lot which is like sort of like my day-to-day like what makes me so happy to work like what what makes me so happy to like be a pro player I love the idea that I'm chasing being the best that like I've like that's my end goal and I think it's it's very rewarding like when at least domestically I think I have no equals okay and that feels really really good I was gonna that's where I was gonna go I was gonna ask you because I do believe it it's a belief held by many that you are the best perhaps a debate that was settled to some degree in spring with your win over TSM doublelift is the best North American player of all time and do you agree with that statement yeah like I think not oh not just my results like I just feel like personally like my stock like my my value to a team like just alternate alternate timeline right like if I was on TSM will they have lots of clutch no like hell no like you just give you crazy to think that so like I think I think my values a player is like it's really high and it's not just my individual play like a like a robot that just plays League of Legends I think it's like a lot of things rile me that make me a really important player for a lot of teams and I you know like I work on that but I don't in the end like well when I practice it's really just about being the best like I don't I'm not like I'm gonna improve my my last today I'm gonna improve my communication like I just think of try draw inspiration from like other regions and stuff I read it I tried to write inspiration for myself like oh what could I improve but like it's kind of cool it's kind of cool to have this high status and it makes me more motivated all the time so then let's talk about what it takes to become the best write because you didn't just wake I you have a lot of natural abilities there is an eight talent I think when you talk about anyone being the best in the world at something right yeah but sacrifice has to be made this wasn't this wasn't a one-day journey so so walk me through you know from from day one League of Legends doublelift to title of being the best in North America like what was that journey like what did you give up what did you invest to get to that point I mean like when I started I joined a team of Legends that were like so much better than me that it was like the idea that I could ever become the best was like laughable you know but like that's what I really wanted like I really wanted to be them at some point I wouldn't want to be hotshot yeah and big fat GG in chowster and like these guys there's something about him that made him so like just incredible like hotshot it was sort of like his creativity and like he revolutionized the way people thought about like split-pushing and he had those two champions that you can never give them and chowster was like his great mind and big fat was like he was faker at the time he could play every champion you could do he could do anything you play any role any champion like and he'd do it like that a professional level and like these things I was like what's gonna be my thing like what how am I gonna be even like stand in the same like area as these guys like in the same room like I feel like I'm not worthy so it started off like pretty bad like I was I was a really bad player and people people definitely saw like oh this sky limited champion pool terrible brain like you know doesn't have a good mind for the game probably doesn't communicate well like he's just get some micro by Chester and then it uh that's how it all started like I had good mechanics I think I did have good talent for the game and I played a lot like I did a lot and then slowly slowly slowly people recognized me as like a potentially good player and then finally a good player did you recognize your own ability at that age or was it something that other people had to point out to you in a sense I think I recognized that myself when we started doing reviews and I would notice things about my teammates like hot rod and big fat Eugene Chow story like I would notice mistakes that they made that I wouldn't make hmm and then I was like whoa I'm better than them in some ways right in some ways like but overall they're way better than me I'm but I'm still like I'm improving because before I couldn't even see where I was like where I stood with them there was they were just so overwhelming better than me and I think it yeah always does come from yourself because like one of the one of the quotes that uh really like resonated with me early on was like if you believe them when they tell you agreat you have to believe them when they tell you suck yeah and like I hated that you know I really never wanted my own confidence to come from how hard the community like you know is hyping me up or like trying to tear me down right and and then I did like an okay job you know so in the end like I think every pro player in the world their confidence is hurt when everyone is bashing them you know like it doesn't matter how much you try not to let it affect you use it just happens but like for me I think cuz' there's been Sony ups and downs that's been yeah that's been less important mostly it's just about my own like mental state right but this concept of of it needing to come from self but that acknowledgement of greatness in a lot of ways does come externally right yeah because it's way it's one to say hey I am the best player in America but if nobody else is saying that about you yeah then it's not true you're just a clown you're just a clown if you're saying it and no one else believes it yeah and so so what an emotional toll that can take then that this idea of like throughout your career you've had the highs and the lows it was not as you mentioned day one doublelift is the best it was striving to become the best there were moments there were peak moments for you and your career on CLG on TSM but then there are also dips and so why do you keep going for it you have the most titles in North America what is the motivation still I think I've never been recognized as the best in the world and I think I'm think I'm like one really small step from being there okay like only you know not even like not even like a hundred people have that will ever have even like the opportunity cuz like even if you think of like every team that goes to Worlds there's like 16 teams or 24 teams whatever there's like 80 120 people right like yeah only a few of those teams realistically have a chance of winning you know like if it's if you're like the third seed from Taiwan or something like that or like you know you're like from one of the smaller regions you have really no chance of winning and for the longest time like n/a had no chance so I would just coming out be really hopeful like please let me win anyways like nowadays I think there is a realistic chance and like and like it's right there like why wouldn't I try my best when I'm 50 years old the chance that I'm the best at anything in the world is really slim right like right now and like in my twenties it's just it's such a crazy opportunity and and I'm like so grateful that I'm I have it so I'm just gonna do my best with right yeah well at least at the age of 50 the framing of what you can be the best at right changes that's true that's true shift but I this idea of going to you know being the best domestically but not the best internationally that's another part of this kind of this abstract concept that I want to explore because one it's not a situation that most people are ever lucky enough to experience I'm sure it's not fun to move to a stage and now not you know to have that massive shift in perspective yeah but isn't that in isn't that kind of cool how delenn's the scope by which we look at the concept of being the best changes your actual status of being this yeah like I was always under the impression of like there's always gonna be someone better out there yeah there's always always gonna be someone better out there and don't like don't get too confident you know just cuz you're just cuz you like a hometown hero doesn't mean anything and I you know you know in like some ways I got like really affected because people are talking about me like oh he's so amazing you know I'm making like top 20 at Worlds like every single year that I'm going to Worlds and it's like dude I can't wait for you to do me proud and I'm like oh my god like you have no idea like I know exactly how much better these players are than our players mm-hm and it's it's scary you know it'd be like if you're like the best you're the best basketball player but like you're in a tiny little town in Nebraska and then you finally go like the bigger leaves you like play like the state championship or like the championship and you're like whoa I'm actually awful like this yeah fair like this is and yet in the microcosm of your community people's perception of you is still that you're great yeah right and so their expectation is that you will perform to the degree that they know you domestically even when you're on the international stage and I think that that's a pressure that very few people again ever have the opportunity to experience what you yeah well you've experienced and I think it's in I think it's made all that much more interesting by the fact that you said this feels like we're moving into the era or at least in the recent years as has been the time where it feels like na could accomplish it like we could make that statement on the world stage yeah but how does it make you feel that then everyone in North America is looking at you I mean Team Liquid yes as a whole but also double if specifically individually to be the guy to get it done it's up to you to prove that North America that team liquid and double lift is the best I kind of like what all the pressures on me and and it feels it actually feels really good for me when because I mean it sounds like I'm really ego flexing but it's cool to be famous it's cool to be important and it's cool that like things that I do matter yeah people you know like like I could make someone's day I could make like a huge double if fans week if like I if I did something really cool like winning worlds or even making it to the finals or something like that like that could be like just like a huge moment in history from all care with so many yeah yeah yeah and and I really love that but at the same time I struggle with it a lot like I remember our good international tournaments and it's like why am i sweating so much you know why am I so nervous why like when I go onstage why why is my voice cracking like why am i playing so bad I'm playing so weird like I'm missing creeps I I don't know how to trade anymore like Aziz just making me hug my teary eyes it just feels wrong yeah and so I had to I had to like really reflect a lot like am ia choker like dis choking does like crumbling under the pressure does I like to find me does that like is that something I'm gonna just be stuck with forever like just labeled I'm a choker I'm Anna national choker you know do you think that that's the case are you Justin no I think I definitely I definitely realize like no that's just something I did I did a bad thing I know you have choked I have checked I'm not a joke a choke yeah like I'm knocking I'm not gonna be like that forever so I really worked on it and like part of the reason why I took that break in season seven was like I just came off of two really bad worlds performances personally and I didn't feel like I had I didn't put in the work I put in the work I did everything right I did I did everything right and then I went on stage and I didn't carry and I was like what am I doing wrong like is there something wrong with me is there's like is am I just wasting my time like same thing next year and like I took a step back and I was like no I think you just have to work through it like like tons of people like tons of businessmen tons of just everything it just takes time you have to like like I knew there would be a problem with me at some point like maybe people would think like oh the problem with double if this is too toxic or he's like maybe he's like too one-dimensional I don't believe any of that stuff like I think I think I was just like I was like a really good player in a lot of ways and I finally had my first real problem which was I would go to Worlds and play like and it was my first like reality check in a while it was my first like huge obstacle in a while and I was like thinking about giving up kind of and then I was like wait a sec that's that's not to play that's not the move wanna and at the end of the day I don't think anyone achieves anything great without coming up against resistance or obstacles right because in a lot of ways those those moments of failure they define us from the perspective of their defining moments and how we react how we choose to react to those moments and move forward right and so I want to explore this period of time where hey w no doublelift has now made that okay the realization that I'm I choked at Worlds my first big first massive failure on a stage where the expectation was there and people care and and what did this time away from the game really allow you to do how did you come back different what was different when you made the return to the scene than when you left I think first off I I didn't know if I could like love my job any more when it felt like I put everything into it you know I put I put so much time and sacrifice and stuff and like this is this is my life like this is everything to me and in the end the results the like the end of the year feeling is just I'm pretty depressed like I'm really really disappointed in myself I can't I just like I can't even look at myself in the mirror I'm just like oh my god like it just it couldn't have been worse if it was if I was playing amazing and my team sort of like flunked out of worlds it would be different but it was kind of like I was a part of the problem and I hate being a part of the problem hey B I hate contributing to like some sort of negative result from my teammates who also put in the work and yeah I did I didn't know if I was like still loved it if I still like had the passion for it the drive to do it again and then like the first time I saw LCS you know I was I was like kind of streaming for a while and then they else just came on and I was like I need to be there like I can't I can't be apart from this like this is my calling like I have to be there I'm a pro player like at the end of the day and I'm not entertainer you know like maybe people find me entertaining I was about to be an entertainer like I was meant to be a competitor hmm so that's what I really knew like yeah for sure I need to come back and like I need to stop being such a little baby about this stuff like I need to express the first thing I realized I need to accept like I played bad I played worse than normal whatever word you want to use it to find that joking like anxiety or something like that like it happened and the second thing I was like okay well how do I make sure it never happens again so that took a while you know it's for me to figure out but like in season 8 I think when I went to MSI it was a roster with all and pole-vaulter yep I feel like I was playing differently this is different like it was a different me and and then that's sort of like positive like I use that kind of stuff as motivation you know it doesn't it doesn't it gets to my head in a way that like helps me play better the next time I wholeheartedly agree and having been there and watching you play they just and anecdotally it was a different international doublelift but the success didn't follow yeah so so so how do you grapple with that this idea that you feel you've made positive changes that after failure one I have you know I've buckled down I've understood what what I'm missing and my drive to compete and I've I've taken strides to actually improve the way I approach international play now I step up and do that on the international stage and boom we don't get it like what what was that week day like I think it was definitely a lot less disappointing then when I was a part of the problem okay and then I can focus a lot on like trying to share my teammates up and like I remember we had a I remember we had like this really we lost the tiebreaker against tonight where we basically got out of groups and we were on the bus ride back to the hotel and it was you know all of us PO belted jake-o Lamy and who's the last person who ever seen impact impact they were just talking and you know like the atmosphere is actually redeposited I'm like guys like we were really close like I think we can do it next time like we just you know there's like there's like some problems bleh we can fix it now I remember like the difference of that that version of me and like the version of me where I felt like I just played terrible I had like a totally different mindset it's like oh like just like some changes like some small things next time we'll make it out of groups maybe the time after that we can make it further it was a lot more positive so it didn't feel a little nearly as bad and maybe I just like I take failure a lot harder than other people mm-hmm which is like a double-edged sword you know it could it could be positive try in the law it has been pretty really positive for me in the long run but like in extremes it can be kind of bad so let's talk about them that year because you if we fast forward exactly one year from from season eight MSI to season nine 2019 MSI boom finals appearance with you know with some roster changes yes but largely we go from a flameout and again domestically there was a lot of ups there were a lot of upset fans around that but then you you come back and you show up to everything that you just talked about the idea that we can do it next year what you said to your teammates you made a reality but did you feel like your role on the team change because you kind of quoted or you kind of stated that like I wasn't necessarily a part of the problem in that tournament specifically so did you feel like now you're responsible for your team your team the other individuals growth as well to ultimately get you guys to where you are now you know I think on a team there'll always be at any given day there always be a best performing in a worst-performing play your septic system that like there's there'll never be everyone pulls their equal weight on this game you know we did it through teamwork guys it wasn't anybody in somebody that was there yeah like somebody's getting carried in the end it's like not pulling their full weight and someone's playing pulling like massively over uh-huh that's just what's realistic and I think like in in the difference like in 2018 MSI I think I was massively pulling way more than my like like 20% of a like of a team yeah and then in 2019 MSI like this last one I was like I was just in the middle you know I was just doing all right like some games a little bit less some games a little bit more but like I think I was just like an adequate player and a lot of things lined up for us that we'd been working on through the whole year like I think you you always want to put in the work like way before the test right like I always want to study really hard before that like the big the big final and like we were the team we're like okay we especially learned from 2018 you can just like procrastinate until the last moment and then try to completely 180 your team right it's not gonna work what you have to do is set up these like systems like set up the the habits that will make your team great when you face great opponents because like you know they're there waiting for you if you if you have like high ambitions the great opponents are coming it's just a matter of time so you need to prepare right now before it's too late and a lot of stuff that we works on early on this year really helped us at MSI like kind of like tackle those problems because we became like a more flexible of a team we didn't we weren't someone to mention will only play around bot lane like we play around Jensen now Oh Jen Singh applies asin's now like right how does that like change impacting play carries now it's really it's really different like our team is lot more dynamic so I don't know like I think our teamwork improves a lot from last year to this one and a lot of like are the focus of our practice change a lot like if you're a bottom to your team like golden Guardians you just want to win that week of LCS like for us we're not focused on that this week of LCS or the next one or the next one we're focused on like what's gonna happen in a few months playoffs worlds MSI those sorts of things it's very interesting I mean you got a win to get there but like you said like the expectation is that those wins will happen yes so the focus needs to be here where we're aiming to go in kind of keeping with the theme of the best but now more on the team perspective after this this pastime acai and this split is this the best version of Team Liquid that's ever existed I think so yeah I mean we've got a pretty unconvincing set against clutch but like I'm really confident in our team right now like it just feels like any lane can pop off like we have crazy Lane dominance in practice and just in general but then not only that like we learned so much from MSI in terms of like how to speed up the game like how to snowball the game fast but also like I feel like the most talked-about team ever right now the most the most like conversational team is GT yeah and like the thing is g2 just does stuff that no other team can do in the world doesn't matter like just just only they can do it so I think to an extent we learned from them but then we we put our like team I could twist on everything like we we know we know what's where we're strong you know like there's certain situations where we know like this is how we beat IG you know like we we just have certain positions certain like plays that we can make that no other team can do as well right that makes us unique so try to set those up is a really important part of our game plan I think and like not getting not getting like too lost in like oh that's the best team in the world like it like we have to do we still have to do our stuff yeah small to so small tangent on on this you know best teams in the world for fur for so long LC k LC k LC k sk tsk tsk t the only way to play league of Legends is the way that the Koreans and SKT plays it and for so long we watched every team in every region try and copy exemplify or regurgitate the same style that SKT had or whatever leading Korean team was playing on to the rift do you feel like League of Legends as a game or at least the understanding of it competitively has evolved to the point where there isn't necessarily a best way there is G 2's best way there is team liquid's best way and that there actually can be two top tier fight like World Finals teams competing against each other playing entirely different styles yeah and I think that's that's so awesome like I think maybe like I'm gonna be honest I don't think right intended for that to happen I think it just it's just happening naturally but finally like right I think about this really cool point where there's so many options in the game available you could go for a chair place which gives you gold you feel for drag which gives you like sort of like longevity through the your longevity yeah like you can you can play for like like XP leads like jungle camps like there's just there's just so many options and each of them has a pro and a con and I like a level of risk attached to it you can go for a tower dive which is like probably the best way to snowball game make a guy lose like three waves the risk attached to that is so high like there's just there's a lot in the game right now that like lends itself towards being diverse mm-hmm towards like maybe going against the grain because let's say like the meta in the game is to go for drags and and everyone's like yeah dragons of course like you know so much so much value as the game goes on every minute like the value of this dragon will go up it's sort of like investment in their future and then like let's say like which is kind of what happened a team like g2 comes along or IG comes along and it's like I'm just gonna towerdive you and then one of your flavors will be out of the game for the rest of the game like you get dragged but we get like a 5e for hmm and that like those sorts of options is it makes it really interesting I feel like for the for the longest time League was so boring to watch because it's like uh of course that's gonna happen that's exactly what everyone does nowadays there's a lot more like creativity and it makes the game more fun to play and hopefully a more fun to watch that down I'm very excited for this year's worlds season swapping back over to you a little bit more personally when we talked about being the best you said you I mean do you like it do you like being the best is that a position you want I know you want to be the best but it is it is it a position that you enjoy being in does that make sense yeah and I got you I think I think one thing that sucks about being the best on the best team like both of those things is anything short of stomping your opponent is a huge failure if you lose it's like haha you lost you suck you're washed up you choked like that what a huge upset like you're you're bad now and then if you but if you win it's like expected you know you we knew you're gonna win everyone to predict you when what's this what's so cool about that there's something special about it it's like I have so much to lose now and not much to gain like as a contrast when I was on CLG people were like double double that for the best bot lane on a team right and it's like every well that's really cool actually because like if we win it'll be on our backs but if we lose we're being sandbagged so it's like that was like a very win-win situation for us and that 300 was one of the most memorable finals in the history of the LCS that win moment for the org in its entirety but also for the two of you as a duo alright so putting that aside now I want to kind of talk about a word you dropped when we were talking about being the best which is that ego is part of that you have an ego yeah I do all right great I've got one too no we can yeah we can we can commiserate on that but actually when I want to talk about the value of ego because I think too often it is looked in a negative light and it and it can be a negative thing yes sure you have examples in your life as do I wear my own ego has gotten in my way or has been the cause of a failure of mine or my own downfall but there are also many times within my own life and then I'm sure in yours where the ego has been your main motivator or has been the catalyst to why you have achieved great things and so I just wanna get your perspective on the value of ego in sports I mean you is so important but like first off I think the most common way ego is a detriment to players is when they're afraid to be wrong which I'm definitely guilty of where I was guilty of very frequently before like in my younger years having ego you you think you're the and when someone calls you out on something you don't want to be wrong you don't want to look bad and so you you argue back or like in a lot of ways you like always need to be right and so you like really trying to drive home points on people and make them feel not so great and make them like make them make them out to be wrong and so you're kind of like raising your own status by doing that like relatively and that that's when I can like really mess up a team and mess up like your your career I guess or like anything in life but like you said you said you've you've hold out for that no how did you how did you arrive at this self realization that this is something that has plagued me in my in my mind I mean I got kicked out coz I was so good that I was like oh wait they kicked me because I was a dick like I I can accept that and I'm gonna work on that okay cool all right so now let's talk about though where ego can be utilized in a productive manner yeah yeah like okay so where it's productive I mean let's be honest everyone wants to be great at something everyone wants be recognized for something if like somebody pays you a call money you look great today era like oh wow you did such a good job like that feels good feels so good you want to be you know recognized by your friends and peers and people you respect especially and and like kind of like be on their level or higher than them and like ego helps you do that like it makes it so when you do something bad you don't accept that you're like wait I can do better than that if you didn't have an ego you'd be so like nihilistic oh it doesn't matter like I don't need to compete with myself I don't compete with people like that doesn't matter but like when I look at someone else let's just we just played klutz jealous it'll say Cody son yeah someone if someone comes to me and says like oh dude Cody Suns my favorite ad carry he's so good I'm like wait what like wait what do you mean like I'm so much better than him you know and then and then that's that's when that's my ego talking okay I want to be better and so like what does that mean it drives me to play better it drives me it's a practice harder like it drives me to you like always look for new ways to just improve myself I guess and that like I mean you even plays into the outside of games stuff like like going to the gym right like you look good right like what what motivates that probably your ego a lot of the time you can say your health but really it's your vanity yeah without a doubt without a doubt yeah I mean I look I love that because I I agree 100% for for me ego he's the most important when you're at the top but a healthy ego and that's I think that the line that we're drawing here right it's like ego can impede when when eat when your ego is telling you that you're the best as opposed to your ego telling you I want to be the best so how do I get there right and that's that I think is the separation that's important to draw which is okay I'm the best domestically I'm the number one team in North America but that doesn't mean I can't get better at League of Legends that doesn't mean I can't become a better League of Legends player and so the only way I can do that I don't have another person to look to and say that's who I need to learn from or that's who I need to surpass I have to surpass myself yeah my own ego is gonna be the source of Drive to do that yeah for sure if you're the best or rather being the best how does that shift the relationship with your teammates we talked a little bit about the idea of resolving conflict or or discussing you know shortcomings or or things like that but but just within the the idea of maybe maybe we'll just put it in the bucket of like trust if you feel that you're the best can you have trust in your in your teammates or how do you have trust in your teammates when you feel you might be the more equipped person or you might feel like it's up to me to carry that extra 5% ya know like I think our team has a pretty realistic approach on trust which is you do lose trust or someone whether you want you or not whether you intend to or not like you lose stress for someone when they mess up yep if you hang out with a dude he's always dropping your stuff of course you're not gonna trust him with my phone anymore like of course not like it doesn't it's like oh no like he's such a great person you should trust him it's like well no like I've been burned you know like things happen you know like I go to I play in playoffs or something I'm like oh this guy he doesn't perform as well and so over time especially through practice because we play with each other like every single day right like Trust goes up and Trust goes down I think our team has a really realistic approach when it comes to that where it's like you need to show results you need to gain your teammates trust back that we can like pull this play off or that we can play around your lane by doing like XY and Z and you know we all make an effort of course to like give people chances give more and more chances because everyone has capacity to like be a better player that's that's the trust the trust is that not that like you know Jensen today like I need you to play harmony again it's like I don't trust your Heimerdinger anymore but I think like your capacity to play like a face like if it becomes matter or something you can do it right right like and I think that's a better way to look at it and a lot of teams honestly that lose I can tell there's just a player that doesn't get trusted like that that's a guy that like doesn't get any general attention doesn't get any like say and like how the game is being played as it's playing out it's just like he's just he's on an island you know like and I think oftentimes the top laner is like the least trusted member of the team our team we trusted Evo the product of geography yeah maybe you're all the way up there so I don't trust you cuz I can't help you yeah you don't know what's going on like oftentimes for our team impact is someone who's like involving himself in initiating often like our plays and like today sometimes it goes bad but like most of the time having that like fifth man or like other people just play as a four with like some random dude coming and try me in like once in a while right it helps us a lot alright fair I imagine then because you spoke about the evolution of of t/l over this year and how much more flexible you guys feel you are again citing that Jensen has you know or that rather the team itself can play around Jensen in more ways complain about impact in more ways that that there also then must come with that a massive amount of trust that is now shared right like did do you do you feel like Trust was something that didn't exist at the be in January of 2019 with this squad what maybe didn't exist board existed in a small fashion yeah and it's now ballooned into something great yeah is rudimentary in the beginning like actually I remember in the TSM series like where we're down service you and like I didn't play great in the first two games like if you if you like look back I was like whatever you know I was like good but like in the first game I played server I got caught and then we lost the game and it's like oh I actually like I was like the reason kind of why our Nexus exploded mm-hm like at 40 minutes or something and like I still like my teammates have so much trusted me I was like I think they're balling is weak like let's let's spend like the whole draft now should just be based on bot lane like let's pick a super strong Lane and snowball bot and like that's our win condition from now on like that's a lot of trust my teammates put in me even though I hadn't been like super dominant in the first two games or anything like that and like yeah like I think we work we work on that a lot just like when cuz we're all experts we're all experts in like our own way there's no one on the team is gonna know more about ad carry than me yeah it and a story but same with like support and jungle and top and mid you know like so every one of us is our own we're our own experts and when we notice something you kinda have to trust that guy who like you know you trust experts always so yeah like this idea of trust it extends way way more pass like just how we're playing at that exact moment it's also like I don't just like noticing stuff knowledge stuff mmm-hmm Game five of any series what are you sang in the locker room do you do you want the the carry pick like you see a lot of guys give it to me whatever Jensen karma duty like I got this I would say my biggest strength is my mechanical ability like I don't sometimes I put myself in really dumb spots mm-hmm and I will you know I'll just write it down and have a terrible game where I'm just useless but game five mechanics matter a lot because they're deteriorating as you play like I have noticed this game five people just play worse yeah my mistake I see period so I think especially domestically I just know I I'm so much better than the next best person mechanically that like I feel really good playing skill matchups I feel really good getting the resources I know that I'll play better than our opponents I guess but I don't know yeah give me the ball pretty much that's it all right I like it I like it great now all right now I want to talk about the series that we're about to head into but within the context of what tiel's trying to achieve here and you are such a massive part of that narrative because that narrative can be tracked back to TL on the verge of relegation right like we talk a lot on air about the the possible for Pete but we also don't kind of talk about where the for Pete or what the for Pete was born out of which is that CL was a Titleist team that then almost faced relegation in which doublelift had to come in and be the savior of and then catalysed - you know tying the you know TSM as the most successful org in terms of three titles in a row and now challenging for something that no one else has done and and you've been a part of that that whole section the redemption arc how how how often do you guys talk about the four feet never really talks about a dude Artie we don't want to address something so so like you know it's so talked about it's so mainstream we're just like man just want that first seat of worlds you don't say blue moon we don't think about the history the like the monumental achievement now like if we are the first we would be the first and I think we would honestly be the last cuz the odds of someone winning four in a row again is so crazy it's so crazy first off you have to win both splits that year which is already like you're super dominant and then the next year none of the other teams have can like overtake you roster wise like buy your players out get better players of their own make another super team like it's just so unlikely that I think it's maybe really gets made more fascinating by the fact that the game you know changes yeah that's right like it could just totally not suit your team for a whole year or like just once one patch during playoffs and literally the playoffs yeah it could ruin you yeah it could it could ruin you so it's just so unlikely it'll ever happen again I would feel really cool being a part of it so let me ask you this what matters more the first seed or the for peat I understand that they come hand in hand but yeah but you know again tea to your point where it's like I mean what do I care about more I honestly just care about winning the series right they poor Pete comes with it yeah but that's not the focus yeah I will the first seed honestly has historically never mattered like we had the first seed and it's like okay sick what group am I gonna get right it was Samsung and RNG it's like oh dude I thought first seed was gonna be six all right like every time I go to Worlds on the first seed I'm like where's my advantage guys like where where did it go I think making histories is always nice I don't know I don't know like what the community feels about actually I kind of do you know what the community feels about about all this stuff like since I joined Team Liquid I'm sorry I'm gonna backtrack a little bit know one of the most satisfying things in the world for me that's just like it makes me like it's too petty honestly it's so petty to save like say I go to the Argo to the team Sullivan so I read and I read the comments after they lose to Klutch or something like that it's like why did we drop double if it's so good dude I'm like sorry I'm having too much fun comments dude like it's just I mean but that feels good that's because it's learned it right yeah if you had left tea if you had left TSM and accomplished nothing no one would be saying that yeah and so by all accounts and again this is where I you know I'm gonna dive into more of what can be accomplished in this you already separated yourself as the winningest player in the LCS with your spring split title exceed four bjergsen now in second yeah that's so good so that's what I want to talk about too is like you know is yeah I mean you've accomplished great things and you can continue to separate yourself from the pack but I also want to talk about the greatness around you because because part of being the best team I think there are yes there might be some cases in history where the best team is almost solo carried by a specific player but a lot of times there are other great pieces around it and it is it's the it is a product of the whole machine than a single a single part and so so give just give me a moment to wax and wane on on some of your teammates and in particular smithy who who would also then move into solidly the second winningest player in the LCS yeah Xfinity which is here for me to say I'm gonna come Jake no no it's cool it's cool but he is like so consistently smart about the game and it's not like not even in like not even like just like in the unlikely grand scheme of things like he has this crazy mind about like oh like this is how I want to play and like this is how on a path but just like his like his IQ in the game is crazy where he like always knows what that means no matter what it's like I could just tell him oh they're balling leashed like they use mana as a cam insulin and like three minutes later he'd be like yeah he's here just ping it and it's like well how do you know that like what do you mean like he's just there and and he's always right he's never wrong and and like he he knows like so many little things about the game and especially about jungling where like he's just unquestioningly like the jungle expert about stuff yeah he'll know how much XP he is ahead or behind based on like the enemy junglers CS and pathing and stuff like that and it's like I just I just don't understand how he's so good but anyways he has been my teammate sort of like on and off I guess since season when we won first time yeah and I remember back then I didn't really know what is what his strengths were but he was very mechanically good he was actually like it's crazy cuz down people were meaning that he's all displayed else yes right yeah but his strengths have changed and evolved like through time we're like before he was crazier player and he played stuff like echo and Lee sin he was like really mechanical and you always dived in went deep in lake and now he's more of like a methodical player and he knows exact right time to go in and how to engage fights like where to be went when to be there like always covering for Tara dives not let like never letting his laners get like totally screwed by the enemy jungler but also like setting up his own place so he has like definitely roll with the punches really well the Met has changed a lot Oh without a doubt he's changed a lot yeah I mean even yeah without it without a doubt and it has been very interesting to track his champion pool throughout the years funnily enough Lee sin was his most played in spring but even still it felt like a different style of Lee sin yeah and what would have been played you know years ago real quick on onyx smithy I think a lot of people look at him as a player very successful player who doesn't have an ego or at least doesn't appear to right and again I think we can agree that everyone has the egos in there somewhere yeah but it manifests differently but but his demeanour always seems to be like just the most like chill the chill relaxed I mean I swear when when I was interviewing on the Madison Square Garden stage about you know a 3o victory first victory for CLG it was just kind of like yeah it happened man like is that you see Everett does he ever can you rattle that guy I've seen him Brad we've all seen each other at our absolute worst that are absolute like best yeah so let me tell you guys he has an ego it's there you know it was definitely there and and Jake all of us are guilty of being a little too defensive okay of like of like things that were doing that that maybe the team wants to change and stuff like that right all of us do this Jake no exception but I think the thing about him is he's always so chill on game days he's super super chill and mellow and like we win and he's like whatever you know this is I'm Jake like another day in the office yeah just another day and we lose his leg huh whatever I'm Jake right it's fine but like it's just I think he has a his emotional range yeah on those days is is very narrow and it helps him maybe that's just you know his way of like how he how he can perform well we'll wrap this up with a little conversation about Detroit specifically cloud9 is your opponent the last time you guys faced them was in a best-of-five was summer yep 2018 yeah are you guys yes I took your second title in a row yeah so we get the rematch here how you feeling about it how you feeling about cloud nine as a challenger I think law denying amazing team very different than us very very different I think cloud 9 has one wing condition sedan skerin and miski need to carry okay um there is a 0% chance basically that licorice or sneaky are gonna carry it is gonna be jungle mid mmm-hmm and then you know our team obviously we're pretty bad focused I would say but also like we don't want to leave Jensen out to dry like we did in regular season mm-hmm so we are we are obviously very aware of how we lost we resort to against some of this split right but we lost the same way both times I think our team has maybe a little bit more options just because that was one things I was gonna ask you you kind of cited again the growth of the team do you feel like cloud 9 is where you guys were exactly a year ago in like their growth as a roster where they they're very good but they are very good at kind of one narrow thing yeah and with time they could be of your caliber yeah no I think that team has really great potential and the thing that I don't understand is how they didn't get to this point of like there's six like success wise or like skill wise when Jensen was on the roster like I I feel like Jensen is always being compared now doneski because it's like you know there's your placement and like finally cloud 9 I was like doing well wouldn't this ski and stuff like that but like I don't get it like Jessen is so good I just it just doesn't make sense to me logically why they couldn't do the same thing with Jensen mm-hmm but anyways they could be there they could think it'd be us obviously it with time I think the main issue is like they kind of have a weak top and bot yeah you know like they're balling didn't weigh too much and when they play against once when I play against Nicky he doesn't he doesn't do anything he just waits for me to do something and hope said it's bad and I I just you know there's like two types of players in LCS there's like the sneaky Sven's and then there's like the me and who kind of plays like me honestly only think about this in terms together yeah more pressure oriented yeah yeah like I I respect a lot more like the stick stays out there okay I mean sneaky is a great player for sure but his stall hasn't changed much so I never feel anything his style precludes him from being great no no no he's still great okay he's still great but he is a player where I think if you like put him on a team of four mediocre players you wouldn't carry right right but he's on a good team and he fulfills his role really well really consistently so he's a great player I mean you no one will ever argue this Sneaky's a great player I just wish he pressured me more so hopefully he doesn't the finals you hear that the last thing I want to touch on I don't know if you've had an opportunity to see we've had a couple interviews with Spence Caron where he was very vocal about how tough spring was for him personally in in having lost the reverse sweep to TSM which he very much feels like they should have won and I think a lot of people yes most everyone feels they should have won that and then to watch TSM go and get reverse swept by you guys saying if we were there we would not have let that happen we would have beat if we were in that final we would have beat to you um you know and so again I I think what's interesting about this is that I think you know that's an example of somebody who who is maybe using who's looking yeah yeah for sure but again in in a two I like to believe in a healthy way because he's now he's now gearing up for exactly that opportunity right where he can put his money you know to to where his mouth is and actually shut down you guys in your quest for the for Pete do you think Spence Karen has the capabilities the only guy on the all-pro team you know outside of the Team Liquid the Team Liquid guys can he and miski get it done yeah dude I mean Dennis he has been always like a player I respect a lot since I played with him on TSM and he really got he really got hamstrung by like the TSM playstyle which it just it honestly just ruins junglers and a story as people have finally started to realize it just ruins every junglers ability to play the game but Dennis he's so good I think without him c9 isn't even in top four like I think they're just they're just whatever middle of the pack team like because of him they've made the finals but that doesn't mean that he's better than Jake fair enough fair enough all right final question you're going to Detroit in a week are you doing it are you guys doing what no other team has done before in the LCS bringing home the four Pete going to Worlds is the one seed and representing us proudly there yeah I think we're doing it we're doing it that's what I like to hear double F thank you so much for stopping by best of luck next week in the finals cloud nine and Team Liquid will battle it out in Detroit at the LCS summer finals in the Little Caesars arena with a special performance by Jack Sanderson during the opening ceremonies tickets are still available at lolly sports comm so go check those out one of those players though that he will be facing in Detroit is c9s Spence Guerin who's joining us now welcome to the show Sun scan how you doing I'm doing great thanks for having me oh my pleasure my pleasure let's dive right into it but we are going to start with a little bit of a rewind right back to spring split of this year semi-finals cloud9 202 begin and the reserve reverse sweep follows we've already had a couple opportunities on broadcast to talk to you about that and you've been pretty vocal about the fact that you feel you were the better team and that it but that that it did slip away from you guys on that day and even went on to say that you believe if you were in tsm's position in that finals that you would have closed it out against Team Liquid dive into that a little bit more for me like well why is it that you could kind of so confidently say that or what is it that makes you feel you guys had that ability and it just wasn't maybe there on that day ah yeah so I feel like our play style at the time were pretty aggressive and I feel like TSM they kind of knew how to play against us a bit better than we knew how to play against them but I feel like if we were to go up against TL a place that would amassed a lot better but I think that's just the advantage of having like first seed which usually always gets during the regular split so they get to choose who they play against and we don't mmm so obviously I feel like we were pretty good last but and I think TL were there weren't looking as strong as uh like like people would think there were and obviously from scrims we could see that we're kind of like demolishing them every scam so obviously we had a high confidence that we're gonna win the whole thing so maybe we were a bit too cocky going up against TSM that we're looking too far ahead that like like the splits probably gonna be a win I think we got too cocky going up against TSM that just because our screams were looking so well like we're doing someone screams so then so then how do you come down from that like you've now lost the semi-finals and you've watched the finals of spring and you're sitting there saying that could have been us and we could have we could have closed it out how do you how do you go through the offseason what did you guys diagnosis you know maybe what needs to change in summer to make sure that that doesn't happen but at the same time how do you guard yourselves against saying blow up the roster you know like we would have had it if everything was different and start attacking at all angles like what talk to me about that balance ah I mean it's obviously hard to say like that's not just gonna be one reason why we lost like the recovery regard reverse trip mm-hmm obviously we had a lot of internal jokes about why we lost and stuff like that which I mean one of the funny things we talked about is that after we up - oh nothing miss ki got a little bit too cocky so he saw joking around like that he want to go home fast [Music] he did not go home fast instead we got three out so I think we're having a lot of jerks like that which I think as a team we're pretty well around being open with each other and even though it's pretty depressing like I think one of the ways we get over the depression is kinda like joking around it so has that been the case on all of the teams you've been on I mean from from Europe to North America or is this something that's unique to cloud9 in the way that you guys deal with issues or oh I think it's very unique to cloud9 where and my previous teens we would have like very serious meetings about why we think we lost or like why we're bad but here it's more like after we lose it's not like we go straight into a meeting and we talk about like okay do the reason why we lost and like stuff like this it's more like we have some time to think about the things and then I think we start like reboot kind of like brings up like what we have to start how to work on next time it's not like more too much like blaming who's the reason why we lost it's more like just working on what we need to improve on so jokes those are always great but were you angry was that were you angry frustrated at those results from last year or from my split rather uh definitely I was quite pissed I was not really able to talk to some what teammates for a little bit after mm-hmm I think we all probably felt that that uh I don't know we're just all so angry that we lost do you think that that's healthy I mean I would argue that to some degree the anger is healthy at least in that it it validates your desire to to want to perform better right obviously how that anger presents itself or manifest can be detrimental but but frustration anger sadness all of these things those can be healthy emotions on the journey to accomplishment yeah I think for sure it's alphy - it just means that you really care about the game and you really want to succeed and I kind of don't want any of my teammates to just not have any emotions if we lose an important game unless I think it's pretty serious if you not feel anything so obviously I think we all got a bit angry that we lost and I think I mean at least me personally I don't hold any grudges against any of my teammates so even though like I felt like we should have won you know I just need like a little bit of a break and then I'm fine with my teammates again as long as we like learn from the mistakes we did do you personally or does the team as a whole do you guys have like any method of like checks and balances wait ways to kind of check yourself on on whether or not you're creating an unhealthy environment because in a lot of ways I think cloud 9 is one of the orgs that is looked to as having having long been one of the best you know environments for players to come into yeah I coaches young people up sets people up for success so like what why is cloud nine able to what does cloud nine actually do that you guys can come away from things and find healthy ways of moving through them oh I mean I think a lot of it it's just because of Jack and reboot I think they really ease it for new players to come into the team like you don't really feel too much stress or like pressure if you're a new guy coming into the team I don't me personally coming into the team I was like accepted like very welcome so it was like very easy for me to transition into living in the clan house and I think probably all the new new people coming in to feel the same way where even if you're supposed to perform well and stuff like that does not really put any pressure on you to like perform that well like when you have draft meetings and we talk about how we're supposed to play the game it's not like obviously it has to be a little serious but it's not like too serious that do kind of like choke or something like that right so we fast forward then to to this split where you know cloud9 threw it throughout the regular season was contesting at least four top spots you kind of mentioned that tl always feels like that slightly slightly one step ahead or maybe unreachable in the race for the first seed but you managed to snag the second one play your way through a more dominant playoff run having the by and only needing to play one best of five but but you did go up to O against clutch so were there any of those creeping feelings of it could all slip away uh definitely I think like ruptor oh did you step off the stage and did everyone look to neski like don't make that joke again definitely after the tour everyone was saying okay miss ki don't say it don't say it he was like I've caught okay guys of course I'm not gonna say it right so yeah I mean I think yeah so it got a little bit stressful and it was kind of the same way that last but also worked where we get a baron in Game three we're looking to win the game and then all of sudden we lose the game right it's not like you got hard smashed and game yeah you are in a real women issue and then you lost it and so then how do you how do you avoid slipping into whatever it was in spring that allowed you to drop two more I think I'm not sure about everything but I know me personally I was just getting kind of frustrated I would say uh-huh so I was kind of yelling about what we have to do and like okay guys we need to t be flanked we're not gonna win the game unless we do this so I was just trusted like hard conditions for a team to like this is in game in Game four or is this a pre Game four in Game four when we have to draft right and I think also one of the reasons why we could not like choke after that is because I felt like at least even if we didn't win I win that game we would win the game five because coming into the day we already decided that if it is match point like we're down Oh two or whatever it is that we lost two games then either definitely or blob is gonna stop in so I wasn't really too worried I think that kind of helps relieve stress of me and I think one of the mistakes and the spring was that rebored wanted to stop in Baba in the game five but I felt like I really wanted to close up series and myself because there was against my former team TSM and I felt like I was performing pretty well but obviously I think I got a little bit tilted in that series and I think it kind of helped me realize that this serious as well like even if would you go to - or like oh - that I have the safety net of like blah blah can come in and like refresh the team's atmosphere do you feel like you're responsible for Springs loss I think I didn't I didn't motivate all help my team enough to like help us win a game for sure mm-hmm so then this time around do you feel like I mean I guess I guess you kind of already said this but maybe I'll just try and get it in more certain terms do you feel like the experience of spring prepared you for the possibility or removed maybe a bit of that that ego or whatever it is right that that ultimately told you in spring like I want to play this game you feel like you were prepared here in a 2-2 scenario to say you know what it's not me it's not my time yeah I think definitely sitting conditions before the game that like it's okay like even if we do blah blah like we end up losing like it's fine like we can still win the game with blah blah playing or with deftly playing mm-hmm so yeah I think I guess I was just too cocky coming into spring split where just because I had so good practice and we're putting in so much work that I just really felt like there's no way we could lose yeah so I guess I got to to mad when we started losing that like okay guys like I really want to win this game right but I obviously if we have a seven man roster like it's not always gonna be up to me to win the game so then how do you reconcile this kind of shift in perspective right around needing to be or the sole carrier of the team how do you reconcile that with the fact that one of the major narratives of this entire summer split has been Spence Karen is the star of nine miski as well it is the duo but MVP candidates fence karen spence karen is the key to c9s success like if that's a narrative pushed by by the broadcast or by the fans other teams even other players how do you how do you deal with that when internally you guys are all trying to get to a place of like we do not live or die by one person ah I mean I don't necessarily think I've been playing better the split than I was last but I think maybe we just like learns like some tough lessons from losing in spring that we just play a lot better as a team right now I feel like the jungle is always going to look better if your team is playing better so I don't really feel the stress or like whatever to like get MVP it's never really been one of my concerns about killing every piece so my ultimate goal is just to win the split right and be on the best team possible make my team the best team possible and whether whatever that means I'm playing or blabbers playing as long as I can improve the team in some way I think that's totally fine with me love that mindset do you feel like c9 success right now is predicated on yours and Nikki's success as a duo though like do you think there is truth to that as a narrative for the way you guys win I mean obviously I think me and this key are performing super well together I think we just work really well together so even though like a lot of games we do get advantages and stuff I think it's not just only because of us I think the game is played as a five-man and obviously if if our ball in for example we were constantly asking for resources then we wouldn't be able to play from it all the time so like I'll play with double if this wall well yeah it is on the other side we're like you have a ball ain't asking all the time for stuff but there's only so many resources in the game that you can't give every Lane like what they want so obviously there has to be someone that takes and someone that gives yeah so small tangent on that just because I selfishly I'm a jungler as well I'm curious again on the professional level when you when you are in a position like you have been in a player who has a very long career across many organization all the way from Europe to North America an hour of the cloud nine how do you how do you come in what's your first step when you come into a team is it to identify that who who needs who needs me the most like how because it does it feels like a service role yeah it rarely is the jungler the only stuff yeah yeah I mean I've been on a lot of different teams so obviously when I was in Europe I used to play purely for myself because back then the game wasn't as serious as this now and there wasn't as many rules and as many coaches there wasn't coaches at all so it's more like every player was kind of like playing for themselves and whoever and the team was performing the way the best would get the most resources so I think coming into when I joined TSM I think it was very different for me because there was a lot more rules and restrictor and people wanted to play in a certain way it was like set rules about how to play the game and I didn't really know of any like strict rules of how to play the game I just go by feel so I think I had to learn a lot more about how the game is played out rather than just playing by feel and I think me joining a different team is like I kind of have to come into the team and see how they play the game together not like I I want to play a certain way it's more like I just kind of like it out to what my team needs and just played our way okay so then we come back to c9 in its current state where again a lot of people say well the way that c9 wins is span in this key something in the mid lane take that advantage to the side lanes almost every mid laner we've spoken to who has to go up against you has given us a similar response of like oh that matchups not gonna be fun for me you know like I know what's coming but with a specific lens on the finals matchup that's coming up it's myth II and Jensen are no slouches you've obviously played with Jensen yourself and again sticks mithi many a time you took the first All Pro from xmithie Jensen took it from miss key by a very small margin so we have a very interesting one to match up on each side talk to me a little bit about that match up by your expectations for it confidence or even stylistically how you feel the the to match up uh yeah so I mean obviously TL is the best team in na and I think we're kind of the underdogs going it's a big match mm-hmm I think Jensen it's kind of a weird player where I feel like sometimes he plays super well and then other times he plays really poorly so I think obviously going to the match we're just gonna hope that it's not one of his bad days you know like if he gets certain champions like some carry champs he can really pop off but I think miss ki as well as like kind of the X Factor and this match because he's just so good when he gets a lead at moving around the map which I think not really anyone in na is I could add like just taking your resources like taking your lead and like really pushing it to the sidelines where did that come from where where did miss ki come from like you you you you've been one of the closest people to him so as as somebody who's very invested in this in this mid laner who spent some time in North America honestly didn't perform well goes back over to Europe for for a year returns to North America and is now challenging some of the other na greats in terms of mid lane status and finds his way into a final like what is it I mean you've touched on it a bit it's this ability to extend an advantage but like why does he play that way where did this come from who taught him this ah yeah I mean I'm not sure why he plays like that but I mean I'm happy that he likes to move around the map and it makes my job a lot easier because obviously a jungler I suppose a gank but if you're male early I can also gank for you then the burden you know did he teach you or did you teach him how did that relationship develop where we can now together take an advantage and go somewhere who's the catalyst there was this something he said this is how I want to play any I'm not just sure I feel like we just are very open with each other so I know if someone else like I can take some examples of some other teams because we like to joke around each other like kinda be toxic you can say so like flame each other mm-hmm so whenever we play against TSM for example and Pearson would be doing something a lot of the jokes would be like I really miss playing her Pearson because he's so good at mid lane so I think miss ki gets a lot of like criticism so I think he's pretty good at taking criticism and like taking it not too harshly I would say mm-hmm he doesn't like dwell in and like get tilted from someone telling him that he should be doing something so I think he's a super good at taking criticism and just putting in a lot of work because he plays so much so like you yes I think that's kind of like why so good if we zoom out on the finals match up TL is this Goliath you guys beat them in the regular season so when we look at it in that microcosm it doesn't it doesn't feel so separated but but more so from this is zoomed out perspective of TL has won three splits in a row TL is on the verge of or possibly winning a fourth and doing what no other team has done they have the winningest player in the LCS in double-a the six trophies they have expend him at five behind are tied with bjergsen for trophies and then honestly the next jump is is down to a player like you who garnered three titles but those three titles came on TSM they did not come on your current organization and the organization that you find yourself on currently is winless in the last five years looking to recapture the former glory this former dominance that we knew of cloud9 when they came in and so when you hear that around the the finals matchup like what it what does that make you feel in terms of the kind of grandeur and the the gravity of the best-of-five that you're about to play perhaps being one of the most important best if I've ever played in North America I mean obviously it's a lot of pressure put on all of us I think that we should be able to overcome it because to me we are the underdogs and I feel like TL they can't have to prove to everyone that did the best team in na but right now I think we're looking pretty strong and I don't know I mean it's kind of different because c9 used to have Jensen and I don't think Justin ever won anything nope he got his first you got his first title on TL just yeah with double lifts like he kind of went the cheating route I mean I was also dead in the past so I feel like also my title you like those three titles were a bit of a I got carried I don't think I got carried I think it was definitely easier than what I could have been rice I was playing with doublelift and I feel like if you have double lifting your team it's kind of fair for the other teams because he just does so much work when it real matters like I think even though we're two against them in the regular split I think there's no way we can be cocky going into this match because TL doing the regular split like players like SS that just have so many games played they don't really try the hardest in every single regular spud match so when the game just really matters like that's when you can see players like just really shine like that do you feel like double F is the best player in North America for sure that's cool anything is because simply because of Drive like I mean I did Billy ability has to be there but let's take ability as a known quantity anyone who's going to be the best at something has to have that ability but like to to denature to achieve that ability is it'll the way he practices it's his motivation it's his drive yeah I mean I'm not sure I don't think he even put some that much work in soloqueue it must just be that he's so dedicated in all the scrims that like I played with him and I know he's he can be like a pretty tough guy to work rough so obviously that must be why he's so good because he just really puts a lot of pressure on all his teammates to just keep improving so I think that's yeah do you think you're better for playing with him I think I mean it's been a long time since I played with them but I think doing the time I was playing with him like even though sometimes it might be rough but I feel like in the end it's worth it because I play it as push issue all the time like even though it can be super annoying at times like I feel like it at the end it's worth it you think he's better for playing with you uh-huh I might have yes I might have influenced him a bit in a positive way yes thank you go on yeah knock that guy down a peg okay c9 being capable of taking down TL again I think that that is something that everyone needs to acknowledge well while we are building up TL for everything that they've done great there is that too oh and I know you just talked about the fact that you expect a different level a different level of TL in the in the postseason what what is kind of your your response or feeling in in the likelihood of the win or this perception that most every team is just disregarded for not being TL right now yeah I mean I think coming into the match I'm just gonna be humble but try my hardest I think everyone on our team is super hungry for the title I know me personally I'm putting in as much work as I possibly can to just really get this freakin title like I'm so tired of losing I've been losing the last two years do you feel responsibility to the legacy the old legacy of cloud nine as as not having been a part of the high meteor Sneaky balls lamination era of dominance do you feel a responsibility to that legacy or is it more about creating something new uh I think it's more of a selfish reason where I just really don't like loosing and seeing other people win whereas I feel like I could be the guy winning that instead of them yeah so I guess I'm kind of jealous type weather wouldn't you know jealous ego whatever it is competitiveness I think that is something that's important to being great at something especially within competition do you feel like you ought you were always that kind of a person or did it take you realizing that you were you know you had this kind of ability in a you know this skill set in something that kind of maybe ignited that or is this like now this was me since I was a kid anything I could compete in I would go for it I feel like that's a kid I was a lot more shy and not as outgoing so that's kind of why I became so good at video games because I mean I just like being myself kinda right but obviously my mom always told me I can do anything I want to mine too so then okay let's talk about that this idea that it was I'll call reclusiveness or shyness that actually resulted in you finding this thing that you were great at but then talk to me about going from or being that kind of a person to being on this stage and having this level of visibility where I mean literally everything you do is now monitored to some degree people will look up your soloqueue account I'm sure by the minute to find you know builds and this and then social media and interviews and success on the stage like how did you deal with that as a young person going from I was at one point just playing games cuz I like to in my room and now I'm here uh yeah I mean I think it's been a long time for me in the beginning it wasn't really as big I feel like because I started Monday LCS just began right it wasn't as professional as to this now and I kind of like made the jump like pretty slowly becoming a different person like when I first was in LCS for sure I was super shy and I would really talk to anyone like other players but definitely I feel like I'm just maturing I guess because when I first Jon like became a pro like I was like 16 17 years old and now I'm 23 which I feel like is a big difference for sure I've matured a lot and yeah I mean I don't really feel too much stressed now because mm yeah I don't feel like the fans or the expectations I really like a bad thing I feel like it's good to be kind of under the pressure and have the stress on you to perform because otherwise I feel like me as a person I can just get lazy if nobody really cares about what I have to do so I feel like the pressure is a pretty good thing have you ever succumbed to you talk about you know as a person you can become lazy I can relate to that - - - quite a level but do you feel like you've ever succumb to that within your own career like what getting lacy getting lazy or that like basically can you identify you know the valleys of your career were there times when either you know for whatever reason and maybe we can identify those reasons that you you maybe receded you know back into the shyness or it couldn't handle something or fell into laziness or complacency uh this a lot of times in for sure ones career where the practice just gets so boring that you just it's just so annoying to do it for sure like I've had it like so many times because whenever playoffs comes or Worlds comes then you have like a month or like two months even if it's a rules to just keep practicing with no official matches and to me that's just gets so boring that in the end like to practice like even though you have a lot of time to practice it doesn't even it doesn't even get that like it's not that good practice because you really just like doing it just to do it right and you're not like keep improving so in a lot of my team former teams it's always been like the practices gets worse and worse the longer you have so yeah I don't know I definitely get lazy when I have to scream for like a month straight without playing games that's why I imagine the environment of cloud nine comes in very handy right the idea that you guys can can can joke can have more of that casual relaxed demeanor to take a break from the redundancy of the split yeah we don't really get pressured in every single scrim to do our best so I feel like we don't burn out as easily so like there's not too much stress in all the screams which I feel like a lot of other teams might have like if you're performing like pretty badly I feel like a lot of teams try to like not be like more strict in the scrims and yeah and cloud9 that's not really it's not really set that we have to perform in everything scale I think the screams are just important for practice and as long as you have certain goals going into screams like honor practice this match up or I'll learn how to do this thing then I don't think you should like get mad at each other for like just trying to learn I want to explore there's something else with you which is the idea of physicality as it relates to to gaming because I think that it's often something a bit overlooked but has has becoming a little bit more or being pushed a little bit more to the forefront just with understanding that like there are more aspects to professional gaming than just mechanically being good isolated in your room behind a computer screen right there's the mental game there's the cooperative element of working with teammates but there's also the idea that you know your best version of yourself right will prism will produce the best results and you and and going galore fondly known as as this wall Bros right do you feel that physicality is something that is hugely important to success in competition even if the competition itself is not physical I think it definitely has positives I mean I can speak from our own own like life experience that back when I was overweight obese and I would really have that much confidence in my own voice and what people thought of me so for sure like my leadership skills were like definitely an all-time low and I feel like just losing weight and working out like improves self-esteem and just confidence so I feel like if you're a shy person it's definitely doesn't help being a weight I just think it's a very interesting thing to explore especially in this space right because it's often one of the things that can be criticized about gamers and and then again I'll ask like you know so then in the idea of this high visibility position that you're in do you feel a responsibility to present that healthy lifestyle and encourage others you know who might have found themself in a similar position to you at a younger age to say you know there are there are there are options yeah I mean I got a lot of positive messages that I've changed people's lives just by losing weight which I feel like is pretty crazy mm-hmm but I've been able to motivate people even though it wasn't my goal to really like be a role model or even though like I know pro players are seen as role models I think it was never really my goal to be like a role model for losing weight yeah like I think that's pretty crazy that I've actually managed to positively impact people's lives Oh without a doubt without a doubt we're gonna reframe back over to cloud nine the the success that you guys have had internationally because I think what's very intriguing to me about this Finals matchup is we have the dominant domestic team in Team Liquid versus the dominant international team from North America in cloud nine but how that doesn't track like it doesn't it doesn't make sense in those people's brains that the team that's better you know in North America somehow doesn't perform on the international stage and then somehow you do so first I just want to understand why it is that you think cloud 9 goes to international competition and on a regular basis has outperformed every other team in North America if it happened once I'd say it's coincidence now it's starting to feel like a trend yeah I mean I obviously was only here for Clara and one of those types of worlds so I can just speak from experiences that I think coming into worlds we kind of realized that we were worse than the other teams and we weren't ever really gonna catch up we didn't have enough time to like improve the things we needed to improve to be better than the other teams so we just kind of found a playstyle that we knew how to play and it was just going very aggressive play style yeah which I think this you don't really need to be a smart game you don't really need to have as much energy you just kind of need to take any opportunity that the enemy team percent sure and just go aggressive and like try to kill the enemy team right so I think a lot of times at least the last two times and whenever against tl in the playoffs like we got oh three oh three both times I think there's too many nerves and I think we were trying to be too smart we were trying to be the better team and I think so you think that that the losses domestically in the place we're more a result of you guys moving away from this identity of aggression and trying to match the better team I think for sure that if we just play like at worlds like we should be able to be teal that's what you would think so I mean obviously we'll see this weekend yes we will very much see that this this weekend one of the things I've had an opportunity to talk to doublelift and it's it's kind of along this idea of play styles and success on the international stage we were kind of tracking the evolution of the game from the season 2 season 3 season 4 season 5 eras of TPA and then Korean teams just to just pure dominance and it was all about emulating that style even if you were from another region it was how does SKT play the game try and play the game that way in more recent years it feels like the understanding or the development around thinking for League of Legends strategy is that it is more about your singular identity and that there isn't necessarily a best way to play League of Legends for the world but there are best ways to play League of Legends for specific teams do you feel like cloud 9 has a good understanding you know this year over last year of what kind of a team you are who you are as a team yeah I think right now we kind of gel well together and we realized what's strong and how to win a game I think going into the last year's playoffs against TL we kind of forgot how to win a game during that last week even though we had a good performance against TSM then the practice leading up to TL we're just so bad that we kind of like just tilted ourselves so I feel like having good practice and it's kind of like a double-edged sword like sometimes you get too cocky sometimes like you get on and you lose all your confidence so it's really hard to find that balance where like you know screams don't really matter too much but they also do matter for your confidence so I think having a the understanding of how to win the game it's just like the key all right well you're going up against Team Liquid and trying to prevent them from doing what no other team has done in the past that's gonna take place on Sunday in Detroit on the big stage what's your call I think it's gonna be a pretty close series thing we know how to beat TR we've kind of studied them the whole three o them like Dave three owed you I think somebody free 103 one for us okay fair enough front of you you had a you had a little bit of an opportunity to watch the the clutch series that that happened today I would say if T a place like that against clutch Danny three oh then it might be a fear of us do you feel like the way that the teams were being compared today on broadcast is that c9 is a better version of clutch to some degree stylistically both teams willing to be aggressive not one-to-one comparisons we're not exactly persons and that TL is a better version of CLG a you know slow a little more control the bots pressure team that you guys beat I do do you read into that at all do you feel like in watching clutch take two games that that there might be things you could actually identify with in those wins to say that's a way to beat to yell that we hadn't seen before or thought uh I mean I think seal G and clutch have their own strengths and I think we also have our strengths and I think if Jason doesn't perform that well like this games against the clutch I think he had some good games but also he was the reason why they losing so I think me and miss kee will definitely be able to punish Jensen if you place like that okay fair enough well Spence Karen thank you so much for joining me best of luck next week in the finals thank you for all of you out there be sure to tune in on Sunday to see if Team Liquid can get their fourth straight title or will cloud nine finally bring it home again check it out at low eSports comm see you then [Music]

Channel: LoL Esports

Views: 159,147

Rating: 4.9100451 out of 5

Keywords: League of Legends, LoL, LCS, League Championship Series, esports, 2019, game, play, match, pro, full game, HD, HQ, 1080p, VOD, VODs, EU, NA, North America, Europe, Split, spring, summer, lec, lcs, the queue, dash, doublelift, svenskeren, team liquid, cloud9, finals, playoffs

Id: bMoEO-etTMM

Length: 88min 59sec (5339 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 22 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/Sushi2k]

Dash podcast? I'm all in.

[u/Borog2]

This is actually hype. I needed more Dash content in my life.

[u/Rem_Is_Best]

We needed a Dash podcast sooner but he delivered

[u/WaterDance79]

Dash is very articulate and good at pushing the conversation and "narrative". A good person to talk and listen too, definitely would like to see more of this.

[u/GameBoy09]

I'm guessing this got put into production after the Dash and Jatt talk which was super engaging and shows Dash's talents as an interviewer.

[u/Contagious_Cure]

Dash: You have an ego

DL: I do

Dash: I have an ego too!

DL: Nice!

[u/iLikeTurtles224]

Very interesting that Dlift said that people are finally catching on that TSM ruins junglers. Also that Sven said for sure that Dlift is the best player in the LCS.

Wish this was elaborated on!

[u/BoyceBoy]

Can we get a podcast of this?

[u/ffca]

"I have no equals"

Yes. This is the content we need.