[MUSIC PLAYING] BRIAN KELLY: I've
always been a nerd when it came to miles and points. Like in the '90s, my
dad was a consultant, and I basically helped manage
his travel and his points. And I was 12 when
I first realized-- I said, we have all these
frequent flyer miles. And he's like, well, if you
can figure out how to use them, we'll go on vacation. And he's like, let's go to
Orlando or somewhere basic. And sassy old
12-year-old me was like-- I had just read the book
"The Firm" by John Grisham, and they went to
the Cayman Islands. And I would just remember--
this sounds amazing! So I called up US Airways
and talked to Peggy and became her best friend. And somehow our family of
six went on a free trip to the Cayman Islands. And so that's when I really--
that was in the '90s. And then fast forward to '07. I get a job at Morgan Stanley. My job was actually to
recruit computer scientists and engineers, and my main
job was to convince MIT grads and Cornell grads to
not work at Google and instead work in
finance, which, as you guys can imagine-- are there
many technologists here, like real nerds? OK, good. In any case, my job was to
convince computer scientists to not work at Google. So they gave me
a corporate Amex. And I was spending like crazy,
putting all the career fairs, and then taking
people out to dinners. I was 27 years old but
spending over $1 million a year on a corporate Amex that
Morgan Stanley paid directly. And as long as you paid
I think it was $49, you could get all the points. Most of my co-workers
didn't even know that. And then everyone hated the
expense system at that time. You actually had
to fax in receipts. And it was a whole process. So they didn't
understand that I was like banking tons of points,
and I made it out to be like, guys, I'll take
one for the team. I'll do the expenses. And everyone was like,
thank you so much! So I really got into points. And I was traveling
first class on weekends. And all my friends
would always-- like, my co-workers thought I
was a trust fund baby. And it was all the points. And so finally I shared
my tips, and I would have a queue around my cubicle. And people would just-- even
my managing directors at Morgan Stanley were like-- they would come up to me like,
I just spent a million points. I'm buying a grill. And I would like smack them. So I really enjoyed
whipping people into shape. I almost became a teacher
after college for Teach for America, if anyone's
familiar with that. So I like teaching people. I love travel, and I just
love beating the system. So that was my background. So as I look now-- so
I started the blog, just like never in
a million years. It was never about monetizing. I didn't even do Google AdSense. People were like, just put
Google AdSense on your blog. You'll make $10 a month. It's better than nothing. And I remember being like, no. This is my passion and joy. And I'm not here to make
money off of content. And everyone's like, you moron. That's the point
of the internet. And I remember someone
saying, you really think Google wants to serve
you search results just out of niceness? Like, no, they're
making bank too. It's OK. You can help people
and make money. It's not like they're at odds. LESLIE TOBIN: Absolutely. BRIAN KELLY: In any case. So I started blogging, and
I had no idea what SEO was. But my friend gave me
really good advice. And he was like, just do good
content every day, if you can, and if people like it. So I enjoyed every friend I had. I posted myself to Facebook. I was on forums,
linking to my blog. And slowly but surely,
people started to like it. And every time I do
see a Google employee, I try to give them hugs. Because, I mean,
even to this day, last year we hit 4 and 1/2
million monthly uniques. In March we just hit 10 million. And like almost 50% of
that comes from Google. So thank you. Thank you, Google,
for making me rich. [LAUGHTER] LESLIE TOBIN: You're welcome. BRIAN KELLY: So
anyway, I don't know. So I started as a blog, and
it really just took off. And I made the decision about
nine months in to quit my job. But I really got lucky, because
the credit card companies had approached me and were
like, you know our products better than we do. And it was at the same time,
coming out of the recession, and they wanted the millennial
audience that I naturally had an ability to speak to. And also I could market
their products in a way they couldn't. Like, Chase can't take out a
full-page "New York Times" ad and tell you that the best
way to use the British Airways card is to fly American
Airlines or [INAUDIBLE].. There's a lot of-- so I was a blogger, an
independent blogger, who could break it
down right away. It was very effective. LESLIE TOBIN: Absolutely. BRIAN KELLY: Once I started
making money doing that, it just took off. And now we just launched
in the UK on Thursday. LESLIE TOBIN: Very exciting. BRIAN KELLY: We
can clap for that. LESLIE TOBIN: Yay! [APPLAUSE] So Nicky, you joined The Points
Guy team much more recently. NICKY KELVIN: Yes. LESLIE TOBIN: But I
understand that you have been a longtime points guru. Tell me a little bit
about your journey. NICKY KELVIN: So, like
Brian, my beginnings was something completely-- our
professional beginnings was something completely different. So I started out on a
path being a lawyer, trained as a
solicitor in the city, in this big, corporate,
scary American law firm, then made a jump from
there into a record label. So for five years,
I was a lawyer for a record label, Virgin
AMI, which was very different, but I was still a lawyer. Alongside all of this stuff,
I was also a photographer and got very lucky to
shoot loads of big artists. And really what I loved taking
pictures of was airplanes and me on airplanes,
and aviation was my biggest passion, always,
since I was a little kid. And so I was very lucky to have
a sister who was cabin crew. She worked for British Airways. And so I spent my teenage years
and going to student years-- like the time when it was
perfect for me to do it-- flying around the world on
the cheap, 90% discount, staying in the best hotels,
flying with my sister where I'd get on the plane
and she would just say-- you know, I'd have an
economy standby ticket. And she'd be like,
just sit there. And you know, I'd be in
business class every time. BRIAN KELLY: Nepotism. NICKY KELVIN: It was-- yeah, yeah. And then she ruined my life
by getting married and having children. [LAUGHTER] Actually, I was telling
this story at the weekend, and she said that
ruined her life too. [LAUGHTER] BRIAN KELLY: Nothing against
having kids, we love kids. NICKY KELVIN: She
was in the room-- BRIAN KELLY: We have a
whole family section. NICKY KELVIN: So I had
to find another way because her husband and kids
were then on her concessions. And I found miles
and points as the way to be able to still travel
nicely and get deals. And I guess I always just
wanted to learn loopholes or like just learn
these programs. It was kind of the geeky side
of me really appreciated that. And so that was maybe 10 years
ago that I got into this game and realized there
was a real benefit to be had even out of the UK and
started earning miles however way I could and then started
to tell people about it. So I was doing all this
stuff and people were like, how are you doing it? And I'm naturally
like a sharer and want to tell people about stuff. BRIAN KELLY: You follow him
on Instagram, an oversharer sometimes. NICKY KELVIN: No--
OK, yeah, maybe. [LAUGHTER] Like when the stories
are like dots at the top. BRIAN KELLY: Time
to go to bed, Nicky. NICKY KELVIN: So I start
to tell people about it, started sort of writing a blog,
and just sharing information, and helping people I knew--
my friends, my family, to just to get into-- BRIAN KELLY: He literally
is copying my story. NICKY KELVIN: [LAUGHS] Yeah. Yeah. And then Brian
and I, who'd known each other for a number of
years from social media, when the UK thing for
TPG was happening, Brian and I talked
about it maybe three or four years-- three
years ago I was in New York. And he said, I'd love
to come to London. The UK is the second biggest
readership of The Points Guy. So of the 10 million monthly
uniques, about 300,000 per month were based in the UK. So we knew there
were people here, but we weren't serving
them any UK content. So my journey, then,
suddenly was faced-- my professional
journey was faced with this whole new opportunity. And being a
photographer and lawyer was then very
quickly transformed into joining The Points
Guy last November to really follow my passion and
bring all my different skills together in one new job. LESLIE TOBIN: Amazing. Very cool. And so when was it
that you realized that this was more
than just a hobby and that you really wanted
to focus full time on this? BRIAN KELLY: Yeah,
well, the first time I realized this was-- the weirdest moment-- so
I started June of 2010. And I was at a cocktail party
in New York in November, and I had just
shared this deal that went somewhat viral, this
crazy deal where you could go to Las Vegas for like $12. And I basically-- it was from
the bowels of the internet. There were-- before Reddit-- all these weird subgroups. And basically I was able to
translate these complex deals, and it went viral. And I remember being
at a cocktail party, and someone's eyes lit up. And they're like,
you're The Points Guy? Which never happened. I was still an HR associate
at Morgan Stanley. And I was blogging. And then I was like,
this is a freaking brand. I didn't realize it was a brand. And my mom, soon
thereafter, texted TPG, when are you coming
home for the weekend? I'm like, what? It's so weird. Like, my mom is calling me an
acronym of a blog I started it. I mean, I wish I could
say I was super brave and just knew it was
going to be successful. But I got really lucky with-- April of 2011, the
power of press. So "The New York Times"
had actually emailed me. It went into my spam,
thepointsguy@gmail spam box for two months. And for some reason, I was
bored and going through my spam, and I realized, oh my god. "The New York Times," Seth
Kugel, had emailed me. And he's like, I hear
you're The Points Guy. But for The Frugal
Traveler, which was his column in "The New
York Times" at the time, he goes, frugal budget
travelers don't need points. Just get the
cheapest ticket ever. That's what I'm going
to buy, all of my-- I was like, are you kidding me? I was like, that's
the dumbest thing. Budget travelers of
course need points. And oh, by the way, you can buy
cheap flights and do points. You can walk and chew gum. But I was so annoyed. Because in the press,
it was always like, points are useless. You can never use them. And that's what all the
kind of old school travel-- So anyway. I was in "The New
York Times" on a day that there was this British
Airways 100,000 point offer. It was April of 2011. At the time, I was making
a couple thousand a month. I mean, it's all
about luck and timing. But "The New York
Times" piece came out on the day this
British Airways-- and I was getting paid $150
per approval from Chase. So on a normal day, I'd
have like maybe a couple of people getting. But like 1,000 people signed
up for the card that day. So I made 150 grand in one day-- LESLIE TOBIN: Wow. BRIAN KELLY: --through the
power of viral content. I was doing Facebook
at the time, but people started sharing. And I remember people were
emailing me, thank you. My family of 10
just got this card-- and you could use
it at the time for-- it was 20 round trip
flights to Miami, or you could go
to Easter Island. BA's old program was unreal. You could stop unlimited
amount of times. LESLIE TOBIN: Wow. BRIAN KELLY: And
I just remember. This is a business, because
people are thanking me for making me $1,000. That's pretty cool. [LAUGHTER] So I was on paper making
a good amount of money when I quit the job, although
it sort of was a gold rush were all these bloggers-- it became
the wild wild west of blogging, where everyone could become
a credit card affiliate. And coming from finance,
I knew that that was not going to last. And you have to
invest in compliance and making sure
you're buttoned up. And you can tell people
to cancel on open cards because that makes you money
right then and there, but then of course lawyers at banks. So I think that's
why I've been able-- The Points Guy, there's 100
other points blogs in the US, but we've always
had a very-- like, we work with our partners. We see long term, like
the real gray area stuff we don't talk about. And that's good anyway, because
everyone in the industry reads our site. So there are weird ways
to earn miles and points that are borderline
unethical that you can do, but that's not what
The Points Guy is, and that's why we've
been able to grow it. LESLIE TOBIN: Absolutely. BRIAN KELLY: But yes, I got
lucky I was making money when I quit. But my mom still was
like, how are you going to pay for health benefits? I'm rich. I'll be able to pay for them-- allegedly. They still had to loan
me $10,000 from when I quit because I still
hadn't been paid. But luckily the check
came in the mail. LESLIE TOBIN: Yes. Amazing. So do you actually engage
with credit card companies and advise them on
loyalty programs and point schemes or other propositions
that they're launching? BRIAN KELLY: Yeah. I mean, in the US, we do. We're even doing
it here in the UK. The UK needs a
little bit of help. Our goal here is to build up and
get people engaged in points. In the US, we launch
every major credit card. The Chase Sapphire Reserve was
a turning point in our business. I mean, we knew about that
product for four months before we pitched
them the business. And Chase made a bet to launch
it with The Points Guys. So there were no
ads, no commercials. We were the exclusive
launch partner. And Chase announced
the Sapphire Reserve. I get chills thinking about it. It's true. It's coming, and the
Points Guy has the details. And it was our post. Because we respected the
embargo as it started to leak. So as a partner and
thinking long term, so they actually gave us-- think about it, the
best credit card to ever hit the
market they announced on social media with a
link to The Points Guy. LESLIE TOBIN: Wow. BRIAN KELLY: This multi-billion
dollar public company, but they partnered
with us in that way, and then it went viral. LESLIE TOBIN: Can
you talk a little bit about what the Chase
Sapphire Reserve card is? BRIAN KELLY: Oh, yeah. I don't want to make
you guys jealous-- LESLIE TOBIN: --for those in
the UK who may not have access. BRIAN KELLY: For
the Brits out there. NICKY KELVIN: Hearing
this stuff is depressing. LESLIE TOBIN: [LAUGHS] BRIAN KELLY: So the
Sapphire Reserve is probably the top all around
travel credit card in the US. You earn triple points on
all travel and all dining. So travel is every cruise,
hotel, Uber, public transit, parking, tolls. It's ultra-- 3x. And the points are worth
1 and 1/2 cents each towards any travel you want. And then when you transfer them
to their partners like United, it just gets-- it's so unbelievably lucrative. And for the first
four months, it was 100,000 points when
you got the card, plus you get 300 a year. It's a $450 a year card, but
it was the biggest no brainer. I think like a million people
got it in the first year. We were their launch partner. It now is like 60,000
or 50,000 points. But when you think
about earning 3x. I mean, in the US, it's not
just huge sign-up bonuses. Because the interchange
rate, here there's legislation that--
it's allegedly there to help consumers
that, you know, 0.3% is what any
credit card company can charge to charge of merchant. In the US, it's like 3%. So why rewards are so rich
in the US is that merchants are paying 3% on everything,
so the credit card company, they make the 3% plus
annual fees plus interest. For people who spend
a lot of money, they'll give you rewards,
usually like 1% or 2% back. So here Amex is the
only one that it's 0.3%. They have a little bit
higher interchange, but it's still not that great. I mean 20,000 points. Nicky will get into
the exact cards. So it's a bonanza in the US. So if you ever get a chance to
get a social security number or work in the US for
like two months just to get a social security
number, because the credit cards are that good. LESLIE TOBIN: It's amazing. [LAUGHTER] NICKY KELVIN: This could
be the only reason-- BRIAN KELLY: Is that
borderline unethical? [LAUGHTER] NICKY KELVIN: It's like where
I reveal the only reason I joined The Points Guy, like
I just want a social security number, start taking
out US credit cards. BRIAN KELLY: And also
at The Points Guy, one of our unique perks, is
we pay for all the credit card annual fees of our employees. I'm just very lucky that
none of my employers have been able to get
the Centurion card yet. [LAUGHTER] LESLIE TOBIN: So you've
established yourself as an expert in the US already,
and now you're obviously expanding into the UK. What have been some of
the biggest differences between the US market and
the UK market in terms of points in travel? BRIAN KELLY: I'll
let Nicky-- you want to speak to it, because
you've spent time in the US as well? NICKY KELVIN: Yeah, I mean, the
biggest thing is credit cards. LESLIE TOBIN: OK. NICKY KELVIN: So I think you
can have a strategy in the US that is heavily
credit card based, and it's pretty
much all you need to do very well out of
the miles and points game. I think you can earn
such huge amounts and be able to have the
really great experiences off the back of it. In the UK, you for sure
have to work harder. But that harder work is
sort of led to a feeling amongst the people in the UK
that there isn't even anything to be gained at all, and
that's the perception that we want to change. So the main difference
is credit cards and that if you want to
earn miles and points, you need to also look elsewhere. So credit cards are a start
and putting spend through on credit cards is
important in a solid way to accumulate points. But you also need to dip
into loads of other places. In the US, if you get
deep into the game, you can earn crazy,
crazy, crazy amounts. But even one credit card
sign-up bonus in the US is enough to really show
you something great. LESLIE TOBIN: OK, OK. Amazing. So I will admit, the first
few years of my career, I was traveling a ton for work. But I definitely did not take
advantage of points at all. I didn't have a credit card. I wasn't signed up for
any loyalty programs. BRIAN KELLY: [GASPS] LESLIE TOBIN: I know. It's horrible. So what would you advise
to other points newbies out there about kind
of getting started with travel and with points? BRIAN KELLY: You can do the UK. How many people here are
UK residents or citizens? Yeah, so it's a mostly UK. NICKY KELVIN: Does
anyone in here have or is able to take
out US credit cards? LESLIE TOBIN: [LAUGHS] NICKY KELVIN: Ooh, that's-- BRIAN KELLY: Or married-- I actually met a reader
at one of our events who said the happiest
day of my life was when I got married because
I could start taking credit cards out in my wife's name. [LAUGHTER] True story, in
front of his wife. He's like, I fly first class. I have no complaints. NICKY KELVIN: So in
the UK, the strategy-- so we have a beginner's
guide, actually, on the site that gives
you these headline tips that you can start-- these are the
things that you need to do to get going in the game. But the main things are
take out credit cards. There are various different
products in the UK-- granted, not as good as the US,
and they've got slightly worse in the last couple of weeks. But there is still plenty to be. We've got some tears already
rolling in the audience. But for example, the Amex
Preferred Rewards Gold Card still offers 10,000
points as a sign-up with no annual fee for a year. So that's kind of 10,000
membership reward points, which are very flexible. You can transfer them
to different airlines to get you going. The British Airways
Premium Plus Card still offers 25,000 Avios
and the companion voucher which is a really
valuable benefit, which allows you to buy
one of yours ticket and get another one for free. So credit cards,
getting a credit card, is sort of step one, and then
conditioning yourself to use the credit card all the time. Just stop using cash. Stop using your debit card. We also say if you can't
pay off your bill in full on time every
month, credit cards are maybe not the thing for you. But if you can do that, just
put everything on your card, and earn a reward for every
single pound that you spend. LESLIE TOBIN: Yep. NICKY KELVIN: The other one,
which is really great is Tesco. A lot of people don't
realize that Tesco Club Card points convert into Avios
or Virgin Flying Club miles. So I worked out
that if you spend 200 quid a week at Tesco, which
your average family probably does if you shop there across
shopping, petrol, online, after a year, you've enough
for 25,000 Avios, which is another big chunk. Shopping portals,
that's the next one. The British Airways
shopping portal at the moment-- they're
working really hard, actually, to try and reach the public,
because people really don't know about the
shopping portals. And they offer multiples of
Avios on all your purchasing. So Asos has an
offer at the moment. Eight Avios per pound when you
spend at Asos, which is a lot. Loads of people-- I
know loads of people spending 100 quid, 200
quid almost every week. So that's thousands and
thousands more Avios. And almost every online
retailer has that as an option. There's way more, but
even those three things will have you earning-- BRIAN KELLY: Who here
shops online and earns airline miles for the purchases? NICKY KELVIN: So
that's pretty good. But of the rest of you who
didn't have your hand up, I imagine all of you are buying
stuff online almost every day. BRIAN KELLY: And by
clicking the portal, you literally are just
throwing miles in the trash. So always-- it's so simple. You just put your frequent
flyer number in on the portal. It puts a cookie
on your computer, and then you earn
miles in addition to the miles from
the credit card. NICKY KELVIN: Yeah. LESLIE TOBIN: OK. So what credit
cards would you say are the absolute top
three UK credit cards that you could get-- NICKY KELVIN: OK,
so I'd say that-- LESLIE TOBIN: --in
terms of point schemes? NICKY KELVIN: So that
Amex Preferred Rewards Gold is a great starter
card because no annual fee, eases you into everything. 10,000 points is not
to be sniffed at. It's pretty good. And as I said before,
membership reward's really flexible, because
you can transfer them out to different places. That card also allows
you to double on travel and international spend. Actually, the fees on
the international spend may mean it doesn't
make sense to use it, but on travel, it's pretty good. The next main one is the
British Airways Premium Plus Amex, 195 pound fee,
but in return, you get a 25,000 Avios sign-up
bonus, 1 and 1/2 Avios per pound on spending, which is
a really good ongoing earning rate, and the companion voucher. Once you spent 10
grand in a year, you get this voucher to be able
to buy a whole second ticket. You buy one ticket,
you get one free. So if you've got a
big bank of Avios, you double the value
of that bank of Avios. That's really great. And then the third one I'd say
Virgin Money have two Virgin Atlantic credit cards now. They're quite new to the market. And the really nice thing about
those is they are a MasterCard. So you can use Amex
in most places, but another thing
people say to me all the time is like, I
can never use an Amex. Like, it's so annoying. But actually, you can
use it everywhere online. But for the times when
you really can't use it, having a MasterCard. And the paid version, the
premium version of the card, earns 1 and 1/2 Virgin
miles per pound. So that's also a pretty good
sign-up, a pretty good earning rate. You earn 15,000
points to sign up. And, if any of you are passing
through a Virgin lounge, this is my top secret tip,
they have these little cards in Virgin lounges at the moment. And if you sign up via the
link they give you on the card, you earn 30,000 points
instead of 15,000. So if you find yourself
in a Virgin lounge, make sure you ask. They normally have a
flying club representative. But that's kind of crazy. I couldn't believe that that
was a thing when I was there. LESLIE TOBIN: Yeah. That's a good tip. NICKY KELVIN: Yeah. LESLIE TOBIN: All right. So another great way to earn
points is through airlines. What are your favorite
European airlines? BRIAN KELLY: I mean, I'll start. I love Lufhansa. Lufthansa first class
is my favorite way to get across the pond,
and it's a great value. 70,000 Amex points
to Aeroplan, and you can fly Lufthansa
first class, which is like amazing seats, caviar. Lufthansa is the
number one purchaser of caviar in the world. They serve it on every
single first class flight, and they give you like a
little tennis ball sized-- oh, just thinking about it now. So I like Lufthansa long haul. I just saw the new
Virgin Atlantic A350-C, which is a huge improvement. Virgin NBA have had very
outdated products for years, so they're finally, over
the next couple of years, investing. But yeah, my vote's Lufthansa. NICKY KELVIN: I think this is
maybe a controversial answer, maybe obvious-- BRIAN KELLY: Ryanair! [LAUGHTER] NICKY KELVIN: --is Jet2 because
I'm from Leeds and so is Jet2. No. It's hard to knock
British Airways in the UK. The network is huge. You can get pretty
much anywhere. In terms of the air miles
scheme, Avios scheme, it's the easiest program to
earn with and to spend with. And just the
service they provide in terms of where you can get
to is unrivaled out of the UK, especially in Europe, where you
can pretty much fly anywhere in slight more style
and comfort, especially if you manage to earn status. And the airports are nice. I would always rather
fly out of Heathrow than I would out of Luton. BRIAN KELLY: And
just to be clear, we're not sponsored
by any airline. We pay for all of
our own flights. We always have. So all of our reviews-- we don't take freebies. I just felt like saying that. Because he sounded
like a fanboy. NICKY KELVIN: I get on
planes, and straightaway I'm like taking pictures
of everything. And the crew are often
like, what are you doing? I'm like, I just
love planes so much. And I think they got a lot
people like that, so kind of-- BRIAN KELLY: They take
you into the cockpit, give you a little pin. NICKY KELVIN: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] LESLIE TOBIN: So you kind of
made a joke about Ryanair, but honestly, Ryanair,
EasyJet, a lot of these-- BRIAN KELLY: By the way, I flew
Ryanair Stansted to Edinburgh like a couple weeks ago. We went to Gleneagles,
which was awesome. If you ever want a fun
Scottish getaway, I loved it. I didn't golf once. I played with their
shooting dogs. They have these 10
adorable Labradors. I'm a huge dog guy. And we're literally just in a
cuddle puddle out in the field, playing with these Labs. I went skeet shooting. Anyway, so I did a
video review of Ryanair, and I did a taste testing
of other cuisine in-flight. LESLIE TOBIN: Cuisine. [LAUGHS] BRIAN KELLY: Stay tuned. I loved it. I felt like a king because
I paid for the exit row. And most airlines
won't police boarding, because everyone's a
lead or this or that. Like, Ryanair is like, with
like crazy enforcement, and I was the one sucker
who paid for the exit row, but anyway. But back to the
point of Ryanair, if you can save
cold, hard cash, it doesn't make sense to
pay triple the price to fly BA on a short flight. Who cares? BA economy is essentially
the same thing. It would never make sense to pay
$200 more to earn 1,000 Avios. The whole points game
is it's currency. And you've got to figure out
when you can win and when you don't. And certainly,
flying short haul, saving your miles for the
really expensive ones, it's all an arbitrage game. Another advanced
tactic, especially if you fly to see family in the
US or Asia, is buying miles. So Alaska Airlines sells miles
for less than $0.02 apiece. I fly first class back and
forth from here in New York. But we buy Alaska miles, so
it's 70,000 for BA first. So I'm buying one
way for $1,400 US. I mean, granted their taxes and
fees bring it's like $1,800. But I'm buying BA first for
$3,600 round trip, pretty much any day of the year,
when it sells for 12,000 or even buying
business class is 6,000 and upgrading so
that's an option. I know a lot of premium
travelers in the UK will buy currencies like
LifeMiles, Alaska miles, and then use them
to book flights, because you can't earn
them as quickly, so just another thing to think about. LESLIE TOBIN: OK. What about you? Ryanair, EasyJet, what's your-- NICKY KELVIN: So I actually
really do love Jet2. That was only sort
of a joke, because I have fond memories of
going to Leeds Bradford and watching the planes. But I prefer-- EasyJet, I actually
think it's great. Ryanair, for some
reason, I just find the yellow in front of
your face so offensive. I don't know if anybody
else struggles with that. There's no seat pocket. But EasyJet is great. On the site, actually, we've
just launched an ultimate guide to low cost airlines, so EasyJet
versus [INAUDIBLE] versus Jet2 versus Ryanair and all
the fees and the costs, and the pitfalls, and how to
maximize on all those airlines. So on the site we look
after that stuff as well. And like Brian says,
sometimes it just makes sense in cold hard cash
to be flying one way or another. On a 90-minute flight-- BRIAN KELLY: Who cares? But I will add, I
love Norwegian Air. When it's good, it's good. It's 787s, free Wi-Fi, and their
premium, which is a premium economy-- but it's like first
class, what you find in the US, with the recliner seat. It reclines pretty far. I mean, I flew it three weeks
ago from New York to Amsterdam, and it was like totally fine. If you don't have the miles-- for what airlines charge
last minute walk-up, American Airlines will
charge $2,500 coach, because one way is
priced so weirdly. Norwegian sells-- I
bought that ticket. My flight had been canceled. I ran to JFK, and was $700 US
last minute for this premium-- but it's better than
premium economy. I mean, it's a pretty
stretched out seat. So I highly recommend
Norwegian Air, not sponsored. Just pure advice. LESLIE TOBIN: What about hotels? Any particular hotel chains
that you are loyal to? Or do you prefer
aggregators like Hotels.com. BRIAN KELLY: I love Hotels.com. So in the US, there's
the Venture card, and it gives 10 points
per dollar on Hotels.com. And each point is
worth $0.01 minimum, so that's 10% back for
every dollar spent. Plus Hotels.com has a
program where you earn one free night for every 10. That you don't need
the credit card for. So anyone here can be getting
that one night for every 10. So instead of booking
hotels on Booking.com, use Hotels.com because
they give you 10% back. So in the US, I get 20%
back for every hotel by using Hotels.com. Marriott, I was a
lifetime SPG platform. The Marriott program, a lot
of people are unhappy with it. It's been a really bad
integration tech-wise. It's still a pretty
good program, especially for super premium properties. So when I can I do
Marriott, but I like saying at really unique hotels. I don't like being
boxed in with one brand. So Hotels.com is basically
every hotel in the world. So I think that's
a great program. Unless you're doing a
ton of business travel, there's not that many
Marriott properties in the UK. I feel like the hotel
game isn't as strong here, but I think Marriott
is a decent-- Hyatt's OK. I get a little less excited
about the hotel programs. What about you? NICKY KELVIN: Yeah, I mean,
hotel points are actually much harder to earn
here, because there's no lucrative credit
cards where you can be earning masses of points. And I think it's something
that's just a bit less sexy spoken about less. But actually, one thing
I'll add onto because I've used it a couple of times. With the Amex Platinum, you
get access to Amex fine hotels and resorts. And actually, they have some
incredible properties there with some amazing benefits. And just a couple of days
ago, I'm going to Indonesia. And I was looking
up Jakarta, and they have two hotels on
offer in Jakarta, a Mandarin Oriental and
I forget the other one. But the prices, it
wasn't that expensive. They were, for what
they were, maybe $260 a night at these two hotels,
which were super luxury. The price on Booking.com,
Hotels.com, was about the same. It was maybe $10 less. But actually, you got $100 spa
or food and beverage credit for the stay, so
for a two-night stay that was a crazy
benefit, plus upgrade, plus 12:00 PM check-in,
plus 4:00 PM check out. All these different things-- BRIAN KELLY: The
Gleneagles is a fine hotel, and they give two free
rounds of golf and free-- it was like 400 pounds for
booking through Amex was the perk, which-- LESLIE TOBIN:
That's a great deal. BRIAN KELLY: --of
course I didn't use. But-- NICKY KELVIN: Yeah,
so that said-- BRIAN KELLY: [INAUDIBLE] NICKY KELVIN:
--there are all sorts of ways you can extract
a little bit more value. I tend to use Hotels.com. Actually, on the
BA shopping portal, they have Avios earning
through those hotel programs. And actually, one other
thing that I really like, which people don't
talk about, is BA Holidays, where you can book
a flight and a hotel together. And they give you a discount
across the whole product. It also allows you to
just pay a deposit, and you pay 150 pounds. You pay close to the time. You get bonus Avios. And you see prices sometimes
really, really crazy prices, especially for European breaks. I often look at-- you tick just five star,
in May, on a weekend, and it filters it all down,
European destinations. And you see things like
Budapest with flights on BA with two nights in a five
star hotel 139 pounds a person or something like that. So there's some really
amazing things on there. BRIAN KELLY: Which,
of course, we will write about and publish
at thepointsguy.co.uk. [LAUGHTER] By the way, we were
originally going to do the pointsguy.com/uk so we
could have all of our good SEO. For these darn
privacy laws, we had to start from
scratch on Thursday. So whoever here works in the
Google authority department in like the dark room
with the algorithm, if you could just pop us up
a couple notches, thank you. I hate to ask for favors, but-- LESLIE TOBIN: I don't
think it works that way. BRIAN KELLY: No, I know. [LAUGHTER] That was the joke. But if not, if it does-- you never know. LESLIE TOBIN: We're going
to take some audience questions, so if anybody wants
to line up at the microphone. And before we do that,
we'll talk a little bit about travel life. So you seem like you
are always on the road. You're hopping from one
plane ride to the next. How do you maintain
balance in your life? BRIAN KELLY: Well,
that's a great question. I think the biggest
thing like with jet lag is choosing the right flights. And you can choose
horrible flight. So when coming from
the US to London, I never, never, never
take the 4:00 or 5:00 PM. Who can sleep from 4:00 in
the afternoon to midnight and then be on a
normal schedule? So I like traveling
at 10:00 PM flight. It really makes a
difference in terms of just getting used to it. Also choosing the right plane-- if you have a choice of a
clunky 30-year-old triple 7 or the new BA or Virgin 787,
the 787 even in economy, it's better on your skin. It's a quieter plane. It's just a nicer experience. And those small things-- I actually have been
using Dream Water, which is a melatonin little bottle. It's awesome. I try not to use too many like-- I don't use like
Ambiens on planes. That's when you hear
the news article of people peeing in the
aisles, shouting obscenities. Usually that's people taking
hardcore sleeping pills that they're not used to. If you're going to, always
try them on the ground first. Don't mix them with alcohol. But then getting to a gym and
really just pushing yourself. Like in London, I actually
stay near Barry's. Because I know the
closer I am to the gym, the higher the odds are. So it's tough, but get lag
can truly ruin your life. So especially the New
York, London's really-- I would much prefer to
be on a 12-hour flight than a six-hour flight. LESLIE TOBIN: Yeah. It's not quite long enough
to get a good night's sleep. What about for you? NICKY KELVIN: Actually, the
working out thing is really a big part of my strategy. I've kind of stopped drinking-- not that I ever really
drank much, but just drinking plenty of-- BRIAN KELLY: No,
let's be honest. It's really easy,
especially, when you redeem for
business and first, when it's like the
drinks are flowing. I mean, there's something about
having a wine buzz in the sky. But there's a very fine line
of like it's dehydrated. I mean, there's nothing
worse than waking up with like there's no ounce of
like hydration in your body, so yeah, trying to limit it. NICKY KELVIN: So
yeah, lots of water, and then working out when I
land, that always sorts me out, big sweat, blast
off the cobwebs, and sticking to local
time when I get home. Just forcing yourself
to stay awake and going to bed
at a normal time is just like the
most important thing. Because that dangerous
2:00 PM sleep when you wake up at
midnight and then can never sleep ever again, that's death. LESLIE TOBIN: Horrible feeling. BRIAN KELLY: And I
actually did cryotherapy my first time in London. So I have a new
YouTube series that's launching a week from
tomorrow, Being The Points Guy. It's like all my travels
around the world, and cool destinations,
and jumping out of helicopters, but
also the tactical stuff, like how I pack, how
to combat jet lag. And cryotherapy was amazing. And I also the other
day did an IV drip. It's really expensive in London. It was like 200 pounds. But an anesthesiologist
came to my hotel room, and they put in all
this amazing stuff. And it hydrates you. Like, they can do a
lot of witchcraft. And it was expensive, but if
you ever really need a reset-- and I wasn't even hung over. Everyone's like, yeah right. NICKY KELVIN: Brian came in like
skipping into the pop-up shop. BRIAN KELLY: Like more
so than I am today, so if you can imagine that. Yeah. LESLIE TOBIN: Amazing. So I think we have
an audience question. AUDIENCE: Hello. I'm Sara. And my question to
you would be, which area do you think will be
prone to getting points in the future? I'm not sure if you've seen
"Black Mirror" where there's this episode where
people can get points through human interactions can
get either negative or positive points. So I was wondering,
what do you think would be the future
point rewarding systems? Any crazy ideas? BRIAN KELLY: The
future of loyalty? I mean, in the
US, loyalty points you can get for almost anything. But in terms of higher
points, I don't know. Do you have an answer to that? NICKY KELVIN: If I'm
talking about the UK, I'm hoping that the
UK public becomes more aware of miles and
points, and retailers, and other merchants start
to grow and expand programs. That would be great here, in
a way that they are already in the US. Just put more on offer. Actually, and there's
things that I find out about that I didn't know
that I hope roll out more. So for example, Waitrose, you
can put in your Amex card-- any of your credit cards--
into the Flying Club shopping portal, and when you spend
in-store at Waitrose, they just pay you Virgin miles. I don't really understand
how that inspires loyalty. I guess it would make me spend
at Waitrose more in-store and pick that over
anywhere else. But if they rolled out
more of that kind of stuff, so hopefully that stuff works,
UK retailers and merchants become aware of this stuff and
realize it can drive loyalty. So more-- more of the same and
bigger of the same would be-- I'm not saying that's
where I think it will go, but I hope it will. BRIAN KELLY: Using miles, it's
just a coupons, essentially-- retailers, merchants, to
get people in a store. So people in the UK don't really
care that much about points, but we're already
talking to people. Like, once we get the
audience built up, we think we'll be able
to encourage more people to take a little
slice of your profit to give to people to get them
engaged and get new consumers. LESLIE TOBIN: Amazing. NICKY KELVIN: And actually just
on that point, the BA shopping portal, I was having
a conversation with the guy who's the product
manager for that whole system. And he said, we're in the
middle of launching new stuff to try really hard to get into
the minds of British people to shop through the portal more. So the people on the loyalty
side in the companies are aware, and they
are now starting to work harder to try and
do more and be attractive. LESLIE TOBIN: Great. AUDIENCE: Hi. I have a much more specific
question than that. You sort of touched upon
it very briefly earlier. When traveling
with credit cards, there's typically-- so
for the Amex Gold Card, there's a 3% transaction fee. I was wondering what you guys
recommended in terms of like, should you take out
a second credit card for using abroad that has
no foreign transaction? And if so, which ones
would you recommend? NICKY KELVIN: I'll
tell you what I do, because I think this
is working really well for me at the moment. I have a Curve card. And Curve, I don't know how
many of you are aware of it, but you can have all of your
credit cards and debit cards sitting behind it. And you can sort of
select which one. It's actually quite cool. You pick the card. When you pay with your
curve, it charges it to one of your credit cards. And you have 14 days
to change which one. So it's called the Go
Back in Time function. And seven days later, you
can be like, actually, I'm not going to
charge it to that card. I'm going to charge this card. Now, they just launched Amex
functionality again on that, and it's such a shame. Because they give you a
MasterCard, and it means you can spend your Amex anywhere
and spend abroad with no fees because it charges
as a purchase. You can even take out
of a cash machine, and you don't pay
interest on it. There are some limits
on the amount of cash you can take out abroad
from an ATM and some limits on foreign transaction, but
they have different pay levels. But what I have is the Curve
card with the Virgin Atlantic MasterCard sitting behind it. So at the moment when
I'm shopping abroad, I'm paying zero FX, and I'm
earning 1 and 1/2 Virgin miles on everything because
ultimately Curve is charging it to my Virgin card. Hopefully they bring back
the Amex functionality so I'll be able to
do the same thing but charge it to
my Amex card too. BRIAN KELLY: But it's still
1 and 1/2 Virgin, no fees. It's pretty good. NICKY KELVIN: It's really good. But I agree-- AUDIENCE: You're [INAUDIBLE]
passing the fee, basically. NICKY KELVIN: But
would I go and use my BA Amex card or an Amex card
earning one Avios per pound abroad? It doesn't really make sense. 3% doesn't cancel
out the one Avios. BRIAN KELLY: But the
Amex is 2x on travel, or no it's 2x abroad? NICKY KELVIN: The Amex
Gold is 2x abroad. BRIAN KELLY: So
if you get-- like, we value Amex points in
the US at like $0.02. If you're close to getting, and
you want to top up your Amex, when you think about it, if
you value them at $0.02 each, you'd be getting 4% in
value back and you pay 3%. It sucks, but you
could still win. But you have to value
Amex at that level. I mean, I can spend Amex
points to get $0.05 per point in value. I really want you
to give the tip on-- there's this little known
feature of the BA Avios program that can get insane value. He got $0.20 per point in value
from this secret redemption. Not secret, it's
just unknown about. So I just want you
to share it quickly, what it is because I love it. NICKY KELVIN: It's called
a multi-carrier award, and it allows you to
book a ticket with Avios on two or more
Oneworld airlines. So my ticket included
British Airways, Qantas, and Cathay Pacific, but
it can be any two or more of any of the Oneworld airlines. And it prices on a
completely different chart. So instead of
paying per segment, you pay an overall cost of
whatever the mileage is, and it's in mileage bands. So there's a cost
for 0 to 5,000 miles, and then 5,000 to 10,000
miles is another cost. It's amazing because they
work on a different multi, across classes. So now if any of
you are into Avios, you'll know you pay double
for premium economy, triple for business,
quadruple for first. But most carrier
would still work on the old method of 1 and
1/2 for premium, times two for business, times
three for first. So business redemptions
can be really valuable. So you should check it out. I'm going to have a post
going live on it pretty soon. AUDIENCE: How did you
do that because ba.com is awful with different
segments and differnet classes and things like that. NICKY KELVIN: You need to block
out about a week of your life. [LAUGHTER] Get a friendly
agent on the phone. No, actually, granted,
those kind of tickets take a bit of planning. I use ba.com to find
the availability. BRIAN KELLY: Segment by segment. NICKY KELVIN: So I
knew this was there, and I'd write down,
OK, it's on this flight number, this date, this class. I actually used
the Qantas system to find the Qantas
domestic flights because BA doesn't find those very well. And then I had all this
big list called up. I said, I'm booking a
multi-carrier award. The agent knew
what it was often. If they didn't, I would just put
the phone down, started again. And we went through the whole
thing, priced everything up. I had to do it twice because
I booked for me and my friend on separate accounts. And it took a whole
hour on the phone. So you have to be willing
to put that time in. BRIAN KELLY: $20,000
in value for one hour. Hmm. NICKY KELVIN: So yeah. BRIAN KELLY: And just to
tease it, later this year, we're coming out
with our new TPG app that's going to
track your points, track your credit cards. We just bought a company
called ExpertFlyer that actually pings the airlines
for availability, upgrades, et cetera. So the grand future of
The Points Guy-- today we're a content shop. Our app is going
to change the game. We're working with the
airlines directly to add value. Because right now, the
booking process is horrible. I mean, how many
different websites do you have to-- and kind of
figure out what's a good hotel? Or how should I
buy this airfare? So The Points Guy in
the next couple of years is going to really elevate you a
whole logged-in experience that will give you your net
worth in points, and tips, and curated content,
and all of that. LESLIE TOBIN: Amazing. BRIAN KELLY: I'm very
excited for that, and I think it's going
to dramatically help our readers get that value so
you don't have to just sift through a million old blog posts
and kind of cobble it together. LESLIE TOBIN: Awesome. Britney? AUDIENCE: Yeah, so
I was curious if you are able to get this Chase
Sapphire Reserve card, but it's going to involve
your making money in pounds, and then you have to transfer
it back over to dollars and spend in dollars. It says no foreign
transaction fees, but actually, is there
a little bit of a cut that the bank is
taking or whatever? BRIAN KELLY: You'd be surprised. We're doing tests on that
on foreign transaction fees. We bought the same item
in multiple countries at the same time. And the actual conversion
rate with banks-- now, when you're actually
transferring funds, I know that there can be. So I think you have to
look into it by your bank. Yeah, if there's like a 3%
spread, then yeah that's-- actually, I mean, it
could still be worth it if you're really
earning tons more. But I know most of
my expat friends still use your US cards here. They have no foreign
transaction fees. And they're roughly--
they're not going to charge you 3% to pay that. Although, I don't know
when you transfer funds from pounds to US. I don't know. Has anyone here had any
experience with that? LESLIE TOBIN: I've done that. I have that exact
situation, actually. And I transfer
with TransferWise, and it's an amazing service. It-- BRIAN KELLY: So you
still use your US cards? LESLIE TOBIN: I use my
Chase Sapphire Reserve-- BRIAN KELLY: Earn the triple. LESLIE TOBIN: --and
work here in the UK. Yeah. So I recommend. BRIAN KELLY: You heard it here. AUDIENCE: OK, cool. Helpful. Thank you, guys. [LAUGHTER] LESLIE TOBIN: OK,
one more audience question, and then
we'll start to wrap up. AUDIENCE: Hi. Thanks for coming. Mine's kind of specifically
about spending points. I know you mentioned
you hear it a lot, people are like, I don't
know how to spend them. So I've got the BA
Premium Black-- you know, the black one. And I've got so many
points from work travel, and I've had the companion
voucher for like a year, but I keep looking
for ways to spend it, and it keeps saying
like, there's never availability and
same with Avios, like even using them
to get money off. So I wondering if
you had any tips on like finding the right ways
to spend points, specifically airline points? NICKY KELVIN: Where
do you want to go? Like, what's your kind of dream? AUDIENCE: I want to
spend it on long haul, like I guess Asia, for
the companion voucher. NICKY KELVIN: OK, so if you've
got a year left on your voucher before it expires,
then you've probably got a chance to get this right. But BA releases flights-- they release two business class
seats and four economy seats on all long haul flights for
use with Avios for redemption. So they release
them 355 days out. So if you pick the flights
that you want to take, there will always be at least
two business class seats on every flight. You have to be there on
the phone at midnight to book those tickets, but
they are available to you to anywhere. That's most applicable
if you're trying to go a busy time of year
to a popular destination and to often destinations
where they don't have high frequency of flights-- the classic ones like Cape
Town or Australia, especially in our winter, people
trying to go away around Christmas holidays. If you really just
want to use them, and you want to go somewhere,
and you're not that bothered, or you really just want
to fly first class, places like New York
are very easy to redeem to because there's so
many flights a day. And I often see on
any day of the year, you can pretty much get business
and first class availability to somewhere like New York. Other places are
just way harder. Because there's 10 flights
a day to that versus two to Cape Town. I also think Asia is a
little bit more difficult. But I would say open yourself
up to flying to different places in Asia and use your Avios. So if you want to
get to Bangkok, don't just look at Bangkok. Look at Singapore, Kuala Lumpur. Look at Hong Kong. And then from there, you
can even use your Avios. For example, from
Hong Kong, fly Cathay to literally anywhere in Asia. BRIAN KELLY: So we actually also
have a website, I mentioned, we bought called ExpertFlyer. ExpertFlyers scrapes and
has direct connections to a ton of airlines,
including BA. It's $10 a month, and you
get to up to 100 alerts for award tickets. And what that means is you
can set two tickets available for companion on all
these different routes, and then every day,
multiple times a day, we scrape to see if
anything's available. And then when they are, you
get an ExpertFlyer notification that emails you. Because things are opening
up and closing all the time. The airlines have very
dynamic pricing models. They may drop six
business class seats because their pricing
model tells them Singapore is open next week. It's a dead week or whatever. You would never know unless
you were checking every day. So ExpertFlyer does
that work for you. And that's what we'll have in
the TPG app later this year. But we have blog
posts on ExpertFlyer. For $10 a month to help
you get two business class seats that are worth thousands,
that's more of an expert tool. It's not that hard to use. You work at Google, I'm
sure you're pretty smart. But it is sort of
for experts, but it's those are my favorite
emails in the world to get. Because I'll set tons of alerts,
and it's like that Qantas first class, there's only going
to be one or two seats ever, but I snatched them before
anyone else can book them online. AUDIENCE: Thank you. LESLIE TOBIN: Thank you. All right, we only have
a few minutes left, so I'm going to end
with one final question. Can you tell us what is the
best deal that you've ever gotten booking with points
or your favorite experience booking with points? BRIAN KELLY: Well, I'll go. So my favorite way of
using points these days, the most meaningful to me,
is through our partnership with Rainbow Railroad. So it's an amazing organization. Basically LGBT people are
persecuted around the world. We know it's still illegal
in over 50 countries, some countries
worse than others. If you've heard of reports-- I remember 2 and 1/2 years
ago listening about Chechnya. LGBT people are
being rounded up. There are actually
concentration camps. And I remember reading
"The New York Times" article being like-- like, you know, you deny. This can't be happening. It's true. Jamaica, trans people
are killed every week. It's horrible for them there. So through Rainbow Railroad, you
can donate your airline miles, and they actually fly people
out and get them asylum. So I've been working with
them for the last three years. We're actually about
to do a $1 million donation campaign
around Pride this year. If any of you are going to be
in New York, it's World Pride. It's going to be the biggest
pride ever on multiple levels. But 50,000 miles can
help save someone's life. And you may think, oh,
a lot of huge charities will take your miles, and
they just liquidate them. But what happens with
Rainbow Railroad, they're in a huge pool,
and we book people. So I had the ability,
going to Toronto where a lot of our refugees live-- or asylees-- and I
was out to dinner with like 20 of
these Chechnyan guys, slashes across their
face, everything. And they told me the minute the
plane took off from Moscow-- because we have safe houses. We get them places. And to know that my frequent
flyer miles-- they actually connected me with the guy. And you know, the minute
the plane took off, I just started bawling. And to think my frequent
flyer miles-- like, yes, I love going to Tahiti. Help save someone's
life, there's no better feeling in the world. So there's a ton of charities
you can donate your points to, finding one that you
really connect with and getting involved. So yeah, points can
save people's lives. NICKY KELVIN: I mean, I should
have gone first, I think. [LAUGHTER] LESLIE TOBIN: We can close now. NICKY KELVIN: Here's
selfish Nicky with-- [LAUGHTER] --a holiday that
he enjoyed himself. I'll give you one
that I really loved, which was such a neat redemption
was they had an American Airlines card in the UK,
unfortunately, not available anymore. And the sign-up
bonus for the card plus the amount you had to
spend to get the sign-up bonus, you were left with 40,000
advantage points, which then was the right
amount to book London to Abu Dhabi on the
Etihad Apartments. And that was just the
most insane experience, especially because I
paid these 40,000 miles that I just received. It was 186 pounds tax. And I got picked
up by a luxury car at my house, driven
to the airport. I was in an apartment
on the plane, and showered on
the plane, and then was taken to wherever I
wanted to go in the Emirates when I landed in Abu Dhabi. So that was a special
and neat redemption. LESLIE TOBIN: Yeah. NICKY KELVIN: I
didn't save any lives. Actually, on that trip-- [LAUGHTER] --I-- [LAUGHTER] BRIAN KELLY: Where are
you going with this? NICKY KELVIN: On that trip, I
ended up driving up to Oman, and I did try to
resuscitate a man who had a heart attack on the boat. But he unfortunately died. But I did-- BRIAN KELLY: You
tried to save a life. NICKY KELVIN: I was part of-- BRIAN KELLY: A for effort. LESLIE TOBIN: All right. Thank you guys so
much for attending. [LAUGHTER] BRIAN KELLY: And with that-- NICKY KELVIN: I love
that I just [INAUDIBLE].. [APPLAUSE]
