The Open Mind: The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power, Part 3 of 3.

continuing production of the open mind has been made possible by grants from the Rosalind P Walter Foundation the blue Stein Family Foundation the Joan Ganz Cooney and Peter G Peterson fund Carnegie Corporation of New York the mall can fund the may and Samuel Rudin Family Foundation the Joann and Kenneth wailmer Foundation the Alfred P sloan Foundation and from the corporate community mutual of America I'm Richard Heffner your host on the open mind and this is the third in our series of programs with prize-winning historian biographer Robert Caro about the passage of power the fourth volume of his triumphant the years of Lyndon Johnson you know Bob I'm so glad we could do these programs Surrey autumn glad we can talk together this way there's so many things that come up in reading a massive massive book such as your own massive but so entertaining so compelling I don't know that you believed me when I told you that several times the lane came in the room while I was reading it and found me crying because it is so wonderfully evocative of my life the things that I remember one of the things that I wanted to ask you about are there's so many more I want to ask you about the Congress then because you make such reference to the relationship between Johnson's successes and the nature of the Congress of the United States but one of the things I wanted to ask you too was about Bobby Baker yeah and about that name that probably not known those who most of the people who are watching us today but how do you how do you deal with Bobby Baker in your evaluation of Lyndon Johnson in your description of the role he played well you know the it's not remembered today but the Bobby Baker scandal was the great scandal of 1963 he was Lyndon Johnson's protege Johnson had raised him to the secretaries of the Senate majority and in 1963 this huge scandal erupted involving Coll girls campaign payoffs just about anything you know I'm not sure I can remember one of the other things now but he was on the cover of every magazine and Johnson you know said I I he wasn't my protege you know but he was yes and at the moment that President Kennedy his motorcade is winding through Dallas at that very moment the witness there hasn't been it's been the Bobby Baker scandal there have been a lot of hints bringing it closer and closer to Lyndon Johnson but it hasn't really the link has not been made but at the very moment that the motorcade is winding its way through Dallas Bobby Baker a witness is testifying is appearing in a small room in the Senate office building before investigators from the Senate Rules Committee and he's pushing across the table to them the document canceled checks and invoices that will tie Lyndon Johnson to the Bobby Baker scandal and that's happening at the same time if the motorcade is going through through dollars then of course with the assassination the investigation is cut off for a while it's going to come back again in the next book doggone it again because I read there I read not only about what was going on in that room in the Congress as the papers are being passed across and I gather at one point when the word come through comes through the lawyer reaches out to take back the President of the United States you won't want these and the senator investigators basically yes we will they belong to the Senate Rules Committee now what was Time magazine about to my life right now a Life magazine well Life magazine you know all these things were converging on when they Johnson among the incredible drama you say what you know why is so much happening this you know why is the book really going into these you say not only was the Bobby Baker thing about to explode at that that very day you know Life magazine had had I believe the number is nine reporters investigating Lyndon Johnson's finances you know when Lyndon Johnson was young who was very poor and he's now amassed the great fortune and Life magazine has been looking into what they call the story of London's money and in fact the first story in that series is has been written and is about to run in the magazine when Sir and they're having a meeting in and they want to expand the investigation further so in the time-life building in New York in the office of the managing editor there are a group of reporters and editors gathering to divide up the areas that life is going to look into it Lyndon Johnson's finances in more detail they're gonna send the reporters have been in Texas they found a lot now they're dividing kind of divided up for further investigation when a secretary runs into the room and says the president's been shot and of course they all run back to their desks and then there's no room in the magazine for this story they are gonna run nine months later in August of 1964 there are gonna be two articles on Lyndon Johnson's finances which will show that he's become a millionaire the other see I mean it's like the the lawyer that you're talking about is in the Senate Rules Committee is pushing these documents in the invoices and canceled checks which tie Johnson to Baker across the table nobody remembers that they're meeting in this you know room in the Senate office building so they don't know what happens until 2:30 that afternoon I mean it's really something - I mean you I'm reading the testimony this has never no one's ever written about this and I didn't know yeah I knew about the Bobby Baker investigation and I'm reading all the later transcripts from 1964 and someone's questioning this witness a man named a senator in open session is now questioning this witness Don B Reynolds and he he says you know something so you were testifying all day and I said wait a minute what do you mean all day what day and you look like it was November 22nd 1963 and then you look to find out when when the when the it isn't testimony but when the when he started talking to the investigators who was 10:30 in the morning and you can date about when this how this was all happening Lyndon Johnson's career was about to enter its greatest crisis during that motor to the day of the motorcade okay now I know well enough that you're not going to talk about the next volume well I've got to ask you because I wondered as I read this volume ah when I read about those wonderful parties that Lyndon Johnson used to give as vice president for visiting dignitaries and others how did Johnson go from that poor boy who was so humiliated by his father's poverty to a man who had quite so much money to have the kind of spread he had in Texas well you don't have to you know wait for the next volume because volume and volume two means of ascent there is as you'll remember because I know you know that very well a chapter called buying and selling right I want you to talk about it well what so basically they with ladybirds money stations you yes but they will they buy one radio station in Texas that is later to become several radio stations television stations quite an empire but at the beginning John the Johnson the early days ah if you wanted to secure influence with Lyndon Johnson one way was to buy advertising on his radio station and then on his television stations and when you excuse me when you say influence you mean in getting legislation best well what I it's very you know I'm trying to remember what specific things I that's a book you know it came out 22 years ago so I don't want to I I remember there's a case of contracts to supply army bases military bases around around Austin I really you know as much as I like to answer all your questions I I am gonna write about that in detail you know because it's going to become a big issue in 1964 because life is going to run this two-part series I gather it had not surfaced during the vice presidential years until that very last moment I well it didn't really surface then you know until the moment he was president yeah how do you account for that well investigate over hels belles you were an investigative well I there had been you know there were many hints about it you know but the fact is as you say that it hadn't really surfaced there were a lot of oil you know a lot of things were happening that's one of the a lot of things will happen at the time of President Kennedy's trip to Texas Life magazine had been investigating Lyndon Johnson's finances for months it was about to surface the Bobby Baker scandal had not been linked to Lyndon Johnson firmly linked to Lyndon Johnson it was about to be linked to Lyndon Johnson uh I try to write these books as things happen and that's that's why I feel that the proper place to discuss them his as they happen in in the next book and when you take when I tried to I mean when you try to take these things out of context you know as you know I that's sort of in my view a mistake you know okay I I couldn't certainly understand that but putting things in context certainly enabled us to go back to this question of Lyndon Johnson's own power yes as a legislative leader I mean you've spoken about it before do you have any sense of why mr. Sam related as he did to thinking he considered them his children almost yeah well Sam Rayburn you know was a very powerful figure with it it's almost it's hard for me to imagine a person like a figure like Sam Rayburn who was Speaker of the House you know he for longer than any other man in history then served in Congress I think for forty-eight years was this figure of such integrity that when he died you know his whole is entire estate beside the farm that he owned was fifteen thousand dollars people said nobody can buy Sam Rayburn and nobody can cross Sam Rayburn he was the toughest thing you know he was this he's a short man with massive shoulders this really big head completely bald which he was very ashamed of he was always he hated television because he said the lights were shining North his bald pate but the thing about him was he was lonely uh he was married once a very brief period marriage didn't last he lived alone in Washington when he was young he said he wrote a sister a letter he said God would I would give for a Tau headed boy to take fishing some years later he writes a letter he says loneliness is what breaks a man loneliness is what breaks the spirit so Lyndon Johnson he was a friend or at least an acquaintance of Lyndon Johnson's father in the Texas Legislature Lyndon Johnson's father was a representative from the hill country and Lyndon Johnson when he max Rayburn ever went to people's houses for dinner he hated so event and he hated social events he used to say once I tried to tell a joke and before I finished I was the joke you know but when Lyndon Johnson comes to Washington and he's Mary's Lady Bird the years 1934 he invites Rayburn to dinner Rayburn comes once because of the acquaintance with Lyndon Johnson's father but Lady Bird makes him feel at home she has this wonderful gift I mean I I myself witness that it's on me unbelievably gracious woman when she says you all come back now and all and she's thought and and in force and he does come back to their house and he comes every Sunday and he has nothing to do on Sundays so she will make for dinner his favorite peach ice cream very hot chili really hot chili the way mr. Sam liked it and he'll sit there and read the Sunday papers with Lyndon so they really become in a way his children and so the year is now 1935 Lyndon Johnson is a congressman's assistant I mean think of this he's never presided over anything except maybe another secretary in the congressman's office and Franklin Roosevelt creates the National Youth administration they're going to have 48 separate state directors Lyndon Johnson wants to be the state director for Texas why would anyone give him the job he's now he has he's he's somebody's assistant there's a very dramatic scene in the memoirs of the old senator Tom Connolly from Texas who was a great power in Washington because he was chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and Franklin Roosevelt had to deal with him Conley writes in his memoirs an amazing thing happened yesterday everybody knows that Sam Rayburn never asks a favor from any man but Sam Rayburn came to my office yesterday and asked a favor begged a favor and would not leave my office until I granted him and the favor was to make Lyndon Johnson the state director of the National Youth administration and Johnson's career is on his way I mean the story of Rayburn and Johnson or I mean as filled with scenes the year before this incident when Johnson is still a secretary congressman was assistant secretary they call them then he gets pneumonia which of course is very serious though Rayburn comes and sits in a straight backed wooden chair beside Johnson's bed all night in the hospital Rayburn was a chain smoker but he was afraid to get up and brush the ashes off his vest because he was afraid he'd wakeland or not so Lyndon remembers getting up in the morning and there was Rayburn sitting with his lapels and his vest completely covered with cigarette ashes and Johnson also tells us that as soon as Rayburn soared he was awake got up and came over to the bed and says Lyndon never worry about anything if you need anything come to me and that was really the story of the beginning of Lyndon Johnson's rise until the day of Rayburn's death you know the these stories that you tell about the Congress also again I am NOT going to ask you to comment upon the Congress of the United States in 2012/2013 I'm not but as I read the passage of power and particularly learned more about those earlier years when Johnson exercised so much power over the Senate I wanted to whether we have any idea of what the Congress was like then before our own times that's a terrific question and I happen to think the answer is no and every time people say today Oh things have never been this bad I think well you know from 1937 to 1963 the Congress of the United States did not pass a single major domestic piece of social welfare legislation Franklin D Roosevelt in the present and Truman I mean Congress is completely controlled by the committee chairmen I forget in what year the exact number but it was some Munir that I write about in here there 16 right standing committees and 11 of them are chaired by southerners or their allies and these people are implacably opposed to civil rights they have learned that if they unite with the Midwest Republican conservatives who are their blood see it's not like today you have the Republicans and the Democrats then you had two parties and you had the Liberal Democrats but you also had hair for the city member Democrats were Southern Democrats and you had the mint the Republican Party similarly you had the liberal Rockefeller northeast wing and you had the Midwest conservatives when Roosevelt is defeated when they defeat Roosevelt on the court packing fight in 1937 they realize if we if the Midwest Republican conservatives and the Southern Democrats stand together they control Congress and they control Congress for 25 years that's it's it's fascinating because one looks at the paper today and thinks where are we how did we get here but you make the point and in the book in your and your simple statement of history here that we were there we were there on that to unlock yes ha what was the nature of Lyndon Johnson's magic and I know you've written about this before but here I'm so puzzled about how he lost the magic or gave it up or I have to conclude that the Kennedys simply stripped him of the Kennedys wouldn't let him ever he once said the Kennedys legislative director liaison was Larry O'Brien Lyndon Johnson once said Larry O'Brien hasn't asked me for a piece of advice in two years they let it be known if you want something from the administration the man to see is not Lyndon Johnson it's Larry O'Brien so Johnson was stripped of this power we see him here you see you see his magic I mean Kennedy has two bills that are important one is the civil rights bill for which there was a desperate need I mean if you forget about justice and fairness I we don't want to forget about that but if you just say what was the state of the United States you had the civil rights movement boiling up on the streets of the south they had to have some sort of legislature they had to know that there was some legislative way to achieve justice on the civil rights bill the Senate is going to stop it I with because the Southern Democrats can control the Senate they have enough votes Richard Russell the southern leader has enough votes to prevent cloture ah but the bill isn't even in the south I think I'm going going to Lord be good no you're not no it's back there in the house well I it's in the House Rules Committee and the chairman of the House Rules Committee won't even set a date for hearings where can be heard in the house before it gets over to the Senate Johnson comes to office and we hear it in the tapes there's only one way to get it out of that Rules Committee Johnson in one one lever Johnson realizes this and I wrote in there if there was only one lever Lyndon Johnson was going to pull it and he was throws his weight into it and gets the civil rights bill moving you know as we near the end of our discussion I I want to ask those questions that you're not going to answer until we need near the end the discussion of your final book but Johnson has such a puzzle to me as a urban New Yorker ah wasn't he to you as an urban New Yorker oh yes you know when I started these books that I thought I didn't have to do much research into his youth because there were any number of Johnson biographies had been written already and uh I didn't think they'd get went into enough detail in color so I would go Johnson library was then open from 9:00 to 5:00 so every day I worked there from 9:00 to 5:00 and then at 5:00 I Drive out to the hill country and try to interview one person see he died so young died at 63 64 other that all the people who went to high school with him went to college with him performed his first political machine was still alive and I'm talking to them and I came back and said to ina you know I don't understand these people they're so different from me I said we're gonna have to move there and of course I assessment yeah not to Texas no well first she said when after you do a biography of Napoleon so I said why don't you write your own books of Ezra or infer heads but we rented a house in the hill country and for three years I think each year were there eight or nine months we lived there and you had to spend you had to go to these farms and ranches and talk to these people who had lived these lives of loneliness which is so different from our life and tour they have their own more really wonderful brand of integrity and honesty but it's very different from New York I had to learn them before I could learn Lyndon Johnson you think that was the key to your seriously to the great success of these volumes that you learned them you learned him well to whatever extent that I did I think that had that was a that was a very important part of it because when you first move there you think that the things that they're telling you are just you know some sort of out of a western movie great being Western you know they used to say you don't understand Lyndon because you don't understand the land you're a city boy you know I you know you don't understand the land you know but then one day his cousin aver said to me let me show you something and she draws me out to the Johnson ranch and she says stick your fingers into the soil there is no soil on top of the rock it's just a couple of inches she said Lyndon Johnson's father couldn't face facts so he went broke that's how the giant Lyndon always looked facts in the eye Bob Carol thank you so much for talking with me again about the years of Lyndon Johnson this time the passage of power I look forward to the final volume or volumes who knows and our discussions then thanks a lot thank you and thanks to to you in the audience I hope you'll join us again next time meanwhile is another old friend used to say good night and good luck and do visit the open mind website at thirteen.org/openmind to appraise this program online right now or to tour upon our archive and 1500 or so other open mind and related programs that's thirteen org slash open mind continuing production of the open mind has been made possible by grants from the Rosalind P Walter Foundation the blue Stein Family Foundation the Joan Ganz Cooney and Peter G Peterson fund Carnegie Corporation of New York the mall can fund the may and Samuel Rudin Family Foundation the Joanna and Kenneth Welner foundation the Alfred P sloan Foundation and from the corporate community mutual of America

Channel: CUNY TV

Views: 4,041

Rating: 4.8367348 out of 5

Keywords: The Open Mind, Richard Heffner, CUNY TV, Robert Caro, Lyndon Johnson

Id: n9Bw0U_1ZFU

Length: 28min 3sec (1683 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 15 2016