LBJ: From Senate Majority Leader to President, 1958-1964

good evening I'm Tom Putnam director of the John F Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum and on behalf of Tomic knot executive director of the Kennedy Library Foundation and all of my library and foundation colleagues I thank you for coming and acknowledge the generous underwriters of the Kennedy Library forums lead sponsor Bank of America Raytheon Boston Capital the Lowell Institute the Boston foundation and our media partners the Boston Globe and WBUR let me begin mr. Cairo by welcoming you back to the Kennedy Library we are always honored by your presence in the acknowledgments to his masterful new book the years of Lyndon Johnson the passage of power Robert Caro praises one of his best sources George Reedy who served as a top aide to LBJ President Johnson himself once quipped when you asked George the time he tells you how to make a watch it might be said that when you asked Robert Carroll about power he tells you and meticulously researched detail how men like Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson amassed and then used power to build highways Electrify hill country towns win elections get rich pass legislation secure the presidency and then use our nation's highest office to advance monumental social change in President Kennedy's last address in his home state of Massachusetts he touched upon the topic of power when dedicating a new library at Amherst College to Robert Frost who he described as one of the granite figures of our time whose contributions were quote not to our size but to our spirit not to our political beliefs but to our insight not to our self-esteem but to our self comprehension the draft of that speech the JFK was given by Arthur Schlesinger included the line when power inebriates poetry invokes sobriety which in Kennedy's own hand we see change to how he delivered it when power corrupts poetry cleanses Robert Caro has spent a lifetime analyzing what the use and at times abuse of political power reveals about us and our leaders newest volume focuses on how LBJ used the power that was bequeathed to him after the tragic events in Dallas to new ends ultimately describing Johnson's assumption of power as perhaps his life's finest moment not only masterful but its own way heroic through mr. Cara's richly painted canvas we also get dazzling splashes of Johnson's colorful persona and persuasive powers that man will twist your arm off at the shoulder and then beat your head with it Senator Richard Russell remarks and he was a friend in conversations with Johnson noted civil rights leader Roy Wilkins you never quite knew if he was out to lift your heart or your wallet our moderator this evening is Mark Feeny arts critic for the Boston Globe author of Nixon at the movies winner of the 2008 Pulitzer Prize for criticism for his penetrating and versatile command of the visual arts from film and photography to painting and a frequent and welcome guests on this stage our national landscape is adorned with memorials to past leaders from the profiles on Mount Rushmore to the monuments to Washington Jefferson and Lincoln off the National Mall and the more recent memorials to Franklin D Roosevelt and Martin Luther King jr. there is a place for such public art that elicits that elicits national pride and lifts our self-esteem but perhaps more importantly and a greater gift to our people and to posterity are the words carved so carefully and often so poetically by Robert Caro and one of the final chapters of his new book which is on sale in our museum store mr. Caro describes the steps Lyndon Johnson took while at his ranch in Texas during his first Christmases President to hatch a strategy to pass revolutionaries civil rights legislation and launched the war on poverty the chapter concludes with this marvelous image the ranch was just down the road from the junction school where as a small boy LBJ had scrawled his name across two blackboards and led her so large that his schoolmates become old men still remembered the huge Lyndon be on one blackboard and Johnson on the other the program that he would announce in his first State of the Union in January was of dimension so sweeping that with it he was trying to write his name across the whole long slate of American history Robert Caro has left his own mark on that slate by interpreting these defining moments in our national story he is indeed one of the granite figures of our time whose books will stand for centuries as lasting monuments to our shared history contributing and President Kennedy's words to our spirit our insight and our self comprehension please join me in welcoming Robert Caro and Mark Feeney we're all here at the John F Kennedy Library and of course we're here to talk about John F Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson but before we do that I'd like to talk about John F Kennedy and someone else Robert a Caro if my math is right the second presidential election you are eligible to vote in was the 1960 election I won't ask you which candidate you voted for but I would be curious to know what the young Bob Caro thought of the still relatively young Jack Kennedy well he touched something in me you know I still remember actually his inaugural address and I thought which I you know it just I think it touched something in my whole generation I someone once said to me at Harvard everybody was one minute everyone was going Lois school or Business School and maximin that they were all in the Peace Corps we're going to join the Justice Department I think that's the way I felt about next week you'll be appearing at the sixth floor Museum in Dallas which of course is in the former Texas Book Depository do you remember where you were when you first heard of President Kennedy's assassination well actually I do I was one of the last people in the United States to hear about it know whenever he asks me that I was then in the middle of the Mojave Desert I had been I was an investigative reporter for Newsday and one of the things I had done a series on where these retirement fraudulent retirement home site and the Sun developments in the middle of the Mojave Desert where there was no water but they were selling them to retired policemen and firemen who couldn't afford better retirement homes for just $1000 down in $100 a month and I had discovered they were fraudulent and I'd written a series of articles on it and the Senate had decided to investigate so they sent a couple of investigators down with me because a couple of four or five people who although elderly ladies tried to live down there they take in their life savings and given it to these developers and they're going down there there was no water anything and we had found these people they all had a carry water like a half-mile to their to their homes and I was trying to find them again so the Senate could bring them back and have them testify you couldn't get radio reception at least an orican car radio in that desert so we were there all day and as we were heading back toward the main highway just before that turned up to Las Vegas where we were staying a truck driver started waving frantically at us and we pulled over and he said the president has been killed and that was how I found out of it you write a great deal in the book about the relationship between John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson could you talk a little bit about that the audience here now sure well it's it was a fascinating relationship you know it started when Johnson really was Majority Leader and Jack Kennedy was a young senator not that interested in the Senate to Johnson all that mattered was how you were how you how effective you were in the Senate and he had absolute contempt for Jack Kennedy his actual quote if I recall it from my book is he was pathetic as a senator he didn't even know how to address the chair and Johnson of course also President Kennedy was then of course in very bad health and his back was terribly and had these two operations and Johnson mocked that you know he said did you ever see his ankles they're only this big around he used to say and he sickly yellow yellow not a man's man and therefore when Jack Kennedy starts to run against him for the presidency in 1958 and has four Kennedy's feelings about Johnson of course if you were in the Senate you had to consider it you knew Johnson was this incredibly formidable man what Jack Kennedy was a great politician in his own right and he realizes something that Lyndon Johnson doesn't realize the Senate isn't the place to run for the presidency for he realizes the power of television and he realizes that if he travels around the United States often with only a single a Ted Sorensen you know orphan for much of this time he and swords and whir travel around in a little plane together someone once said the best hopes of America were in that plane so he's running around the United States getting delegates making speeches I Johnson doesn't realize what's happening to him Johnson thinks he has the presidential nomination by the time he wakes up it's really too late but Kennedy would later say that he could not have won the election without Johnson yes that's one of the Kennedys say most history books don't give him that credit Jack Kennedy puts Lyndon Johnson on the ticket really because no Democrat is going to carry the country without carrying Texas where no one remembers is that Texas although we think of it as a democratic state actually Eisenhower had carried Texas in both 1952 and 1956 in 1956 by over two hundred thousand votes so Kennedy has to have Texas and even more Eisenhower had taken five of the eleven supposedly solid south states Kennedy had to get some of it back some of those states back Johnson wins them back on in this incredible Whistlestop tour across across the south and really Kennedy would not be president without him would he have kept him on the ticket in 64 everyone wants to know if he would have kept them that I don't know but you know it's such a fascinating question because first thing you have to say every time President Kennedy was asked this question which he was asked with increasing frequency in September and October and November of 1963 he said of course we'll be on the ticket but a number of things were happening there was this great scandal in Washington the Bobby Baker so Bobby Baker which some of you I see nodding your heads he is picture was on the cover of every national magazine your honor he was on the front page of every newspaper but although his nickname was Little Lyndon nobody had yet linked Lyndon Johnson directly to Bobby Baker that very morning as President Kennedy's motorcade is driving through Dallas a witness is testifying in a little building little room in the Senate office building in Washington and he's given the investigators for the Senate Rules Committee documents which for the first time will link Lyndon Johnson to this tremendous scandal at the same time in New York as the motorcade is driving through Dallas in Life Magazine has been investigating Lyndon Johnson's finances for months they have nine reporters who have been going around Texas and they discovered that although Johnson was always in throughout his life on a government salary he had become a millionaire many times over and they had been assembling a series on what one of them called Lyndon Johnson's money and they were preparing to run the very first of those articles in that week's in the next week's issue so things were about to change as that motive how much they would have changed we don't really know but it was just as I say something about learning you know doing research with so great about it you know you come across this testimony by this witness you know which is in itself fascinating because in the Rules Committee documents which nobody has ever parently written about before at any rate whether they looked at and I don't know you were reading this fascinating stuff and then you're saying you know you go back to the front to start taking notes in more detail and you say you see the date November 22nd 1963 and you say when was she testifying you know and then later on you see somebody saying so we started this morning at 10 o'clock that's about the time Kennedy was getting on the plane for Dallas and he testified till 2:30 in the afternoon and that meant that while he was testifying the president was shot taken to Parkland Hospital why didn't they stop because no one remembered in the excitement of the day that they were there in this room about 2:30 a secretary comes running into the room saying the president has been killed and they adjourned the the testimony shortly after Johnson became president you caught him in the book is saying to Ted Sorensen well your man treated me better than I would have the positions were reversed could you talk a little bit about how Kennedy treated Johnson in office and how Johnson how do you think Johnson medicated Kennedy well the first part I can talk about a pretty specific specifically it's a very sad story sort of a poignant story because on when Johnson becomes vice president he of course makes his own power grab to get Easton's although Kennedy has won the presidency and beaten him for the nomination he's still under estimating him and shortly after the election he has drafted and presents the Kennedy assuming that he will sign it an executive order that actually would have given the vice president supervisory power over several government departments and he also asked Kennedy for an office in the White House in fact right next to his own to the pred to the Oval Office an EAS Vernon large stare and Kennedy handles it with such grace he simply says now give him an office across the street in the executive office building and he doesn't give him any more staff it has well Steph as for the executive order Kennedy simply ignores it he never mentions it again right about that time Johnson says to someone I think it's George reading fun you know he's a lot smarter than I thought he was and a lot too and a lot tougher too so Kennedy thereafter for what a number of reasons some of which are you know you wonder about some of which are quite specific after the Cuban Missile Crisis you know Jacqueline Kennedy was to write Ted Sorensen that after the Cuban Missile Crisis I think the exact quote is you must know how frightened my husband was that Lyndon Johnson might become president one day because if Johnson's hawkish Anna Stern during the crisis but whether it was because of that or whether it was because of personal reasons the Kennedys cut Lyndon Johnson out of power completely you have to say Johnson is possibly the greatest lure maker the greatest legislator the greatest passer of the legislation possibly in the history of America certainly in the 20th century and yet he once was to say to Larry O'Brien who was Kennedy's legislative and aide for legislative affairs Johnson once was to say that O'Brien hadn't asked him for advice once in two years so Johnson is cut completely out of power on the Kennedy people many of them despise him they look at him with real contempt they have a nickname for him Rufus cornpone they say that Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird they called uncle Rufus in his little pork chop they won't call him mr. vice president to his face they call him Lyndon which which he can't stand so in and this of course becomes common knowledge in Washington so the newspaper headlines are saying things like whatever became of Lyndon Johnson what happened to Lyndon Johnson and it's a terrible time for him it's the worst time of his life well of course his greatest antagonist in the administration was Bobby Kennedy yes can you talk a little bit about Lyndon and Bobby little may not be the right word to you well the Lyndon Johnson Robert Kennedy's story is quite a story you know sometimes when you try to analyze things you can put political interpretations on things and sometimes you just have to say they're just personal you know I always felt that way because of the first time that Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson ever met each other we know about it because two of Johnson's assistants - Audrey D and Horace Busby his speechwriter were present and they told me about it so it's 1953 Lyndon Johnson is the Democratic leader of the Senate he's this huge towering figure his mighty figure to whom everyone in Capitol Hill gives deference Robert Kennedy is a 26 just been appointed assistant counsel to Senator Joseph McCarthy's investigating committee so he's a 27 year old brand new staffer every morning Lyndon Johnson has breakfast in the Senate cafeteria which is on the second floor of this old Senate office building and Senator McCarthy has a big table near the cashier's desk that he sits out with four or five of his staffers every morning so this morning Johnson walks in it's Randy as a new staff of their Robert Kennedy and Senator McCarthy jumps up as everybody did on Capitol Hill to pay deference to Johnson good morning mr. leader great job yesterday mr. leader anything I can do for you mr. leader and all his staff jump up so Johnson can shake their hands one person doesn't get up at that table and it's Robert Kennedy well Johnson knows what to do in every encounter that type so he walks around the table shaking hands and stops in front of Robert Kennedy and sort of puts his hand partway out like this so Robert Kennedy has to get up and take it and I asked you know really says and Troy and trying to explain to me what happens Reid he said did you ever see two dogs that didn't know each other that came into a room and all of a sudden there's a low growl and the hair starts to rise on the back of their neck he says those two guys just hated each other from the moment they saw each other of course in the course of this book you know on you see that there are other reasons you know what to come later I don't know if you want me to go into it but the you know the three times after President Kennedy when he gets the Democratic nomination at the 1960 an offers Johnson the vice presidential nomination Robert Kennedy comes down the back stairs in the Biltmore Hotel three times to try and get Lyndon Johnson to withdraw from the ticket and Johnson that hated him for that till the end of his life John 20 Johnson would have visitors down at his ranch in Texas he'd take them by the lapels and lean his face into them and try to persuade him that it wasn't Jack Kennedy's doing that it was Robert Kennedy doing it on his own so there were so many sources of real real hatred between the two of them and that feeling between them is going to become and I spent so much time going into it in this volume because it's going to become a not-so-small factor on in the way the history of the United States and Vietnam unfolds in 1967 and 1968 you were mentioning earlier your excitement when you're looking at the transcripts of the House Rules Committee yeah investigation Bob Baker case what cake can you say which gives you more pleasure research or writing I can answer the research writing is Oh writing is always hard but you but you do take great pleasure in it did I say that last fall in the New York Times magazine there was an interview of Philip Levine the US poet laureate and he said a President Obama I voted for a man who is not as able and confident as I fought it's foolish to say this but the guy we need right now is Lyndon Johnson do you ever have people talk to you about how they wish Johnson were here or do you ever think about I wonder how Johnson would handle this well I have people asking me that constantly yes and you know I often think about how Johnson would handle things because he had such a unique legislative genius you know getting things through Congress I'm not however I'm not comparing him my Obama here not just talking about you know people think this people you know you if you watch the sunday talk shows you hear over and over again that this deadlock and Congress is unprecedented that there was never anything like it before but of course that's not true after Franklin Roosevelt choice this packed the Supreme Court in 1937 the southern conservatives in the Midwest and Republican conservatives the southern Democrat and the Midwestern Republican conservatives unite to stop the court packing plan and realize they have they still have the power in Washington they are the committee chairmen so for the next 25 years incredible as it may seem no president gets a major piece of social welfare legislation through Congress when Johnson takes all of us in 1963 after the assassination I not sure that this is right but I think of the 16 Standing Committees of the Senate southerners a chairman of knowing and their allies a chairman of most of the others and they have stopped Kennedy's legislation cold not just the Civil Rights Act but his tax cut bill which was so vital to try to get the economy moving again unemployment was unacceptably high at 5% and the economy was stagnating and you needed more revenue which is tax cut would provide by boosting business for social welfare problems and this has been bottled up I'm just going to give an example of Lyndon Johnson how he dealt with Congress with legislative geniuses and the knowledge of Congress so this bill was introduced by President Kennedy on January 11th 1963 now it's November 22nd 1963 and the bill is still in Harry Birds Senate Finance Committee and it's going nowhere and it's not about to go anywhere there's still I think 183 witnesses if I remember the number right from my book and senator Byrd is saying well we can't have any hearings this week because I can't get a quorum and the Kennedy pen bird has said in sort of a wolf hand way because he was a very courtly Southern gentleman he says you know it would be it would be nice if the budget was about a hundred billion dollars there has been no peacetime budget over 100 billion dollars and the Kennedy people think that because he's so polite anything near a hundred billion dollars will be okay and it's really talking about a hundred and two billion dollars they're sure that will be all right and they're talking and Byrd has and they're saying well we can go around Harry Bird in the finance scheming they keep talking about going around Harry burns the very night not the Friday night but the Saturday night after President Kennedy is assassinated Lyndon Johnson calls to his office he's not in the White House yet he's goes to his office in the executive office building Kennedy's three top economic advisors Walter Heller who's the chairman of the cow livvie of Economic Advisers Doug was still in the Treasury secretary and Kermit Gordon the budget director and they start talking about the problems with the budget and the tax cut bills and getting them out of Harry Birds Finance Committee and Johnson says to them you don't understand if Harry Bird mentioned is a hundred billion dollars he doesn't mean about a hundred million dollars he means you're either going to bring it in under 100 billion dollars or he's not going to release the budget or the tax cut bill and then they start talking about well we can go around Harry Bird in committee and Johnson says you can't go around Harry Bird in committee and they ask why and he says because there are 17 votes on the Finance Committee and Harry bird has annoying and they say how do you know he has law and Lyndon Johnson says because Harry Bird always has know and all of a sudden it's quite remarkable if you reach the great things you find both Walter Heller and Kermit Gordon come out on Douglas stealing should come out of that meeting and write memos for the record on what happened and they both described the conversation you know souks and they both say all of a sudden the problem we saw we give Harry Bird where he was on the budget or we can have the tax cut and that all of a sudden that bill starts to move and that's an example of this great really a talent beyond the talent I caught that Lyndon Johnson had with Congress is there anybody today who has anything like that talent you think for exercising power or for understanding how Congress works I don't think that there's you know you're talking about gee really I say I used the phrase in your talent beyond talent the gift that was more than a gift and was genius I mean I can give you another example of it if you want just the these striking unbelievable things so the other bill that President Kennedy wanted was the civil rights bill and that's going absolutely nowhere and on I think it's the very night of the assassination when as soon as he gets back to Washington because what Johnson did is count votes he was a vote counter and he calls a senator who was just as pragmatic about that as him George Smiley of Florida and he asked what's the chance of the civil rights bill and smile that says there is no chance for a civil rights bill the civil rights bill is dead he says just let's recess for Christmas and go home right Johnson remembers that a representative named Richard Bolling of Missouri has introduced a discharge petition in the house the civil rights bill has been bottled up for all these months in the House Rules Committee which was run by another Virginian judge Howard W Smith and not only would judge Smith not even hold hearings on the bill he wouldn't even give a date when he might hold hearings on the bill and but Johnson remembers that a freshman represented and not a freshman a representative named Richard Bolling of Missouri has introduced a discharge petition which would allow the house to take the bill away from Judge Smith's committee no discharge petition is almost never passed because it means violating the sacred prerogatives of the committee chairmen and a president never supports a discharge petition because that would get you know Congress he if he was interfering with Congress that would get Congress's back up Johnson puts in a call through Richard Bolling and it's Lyndon Johnson at his best the first five or six minutes of the school is Lyndon Johnson telling hat bowling of course we can't push a discharge petition that would violate the sacred house petitions then Johnson is bowling but do you see any other way of getting this bill fair and he has bowling say no it's the only lever we've got and I wrote in the book if there was only one lever Lyndon Johnson was going to pull it or push it and in fact sitting in the front row here tonight is Anthony Lewis the great reporter of the New York Times who was covering this very fight and Johnson in fact then has a meeting of the congressional leaders and works them around in the same way to say well this discharge petition they have to support and Tony Lewis wrote in the New York Times I don't remember the exact lead but it's approximately what I would I said a few yeah before the mood for civil rights changed on Capitol Hill yesterday President Johnson was throwing his weight behind the discharge proceeding as long as I'm going on about Johnson's great skills but Johnson realizes that the civil rights groups strong as they were in heroic as they were do not have enough clout on Capitol Hill to persuade the pursuit conservatives to back a discharge petition but who does church groups and Johnson here is that that very weekend 4,000 Protestant ministers are having a convocation in Philadelphia and he sends word don't go straight home to your districts go through Washington and newspaper reporters start to write the halls of Congress are filled with clerics scholars and the civil rights bill starts to move that's really genius unique genius well I know that many in the audience have questions so I'll turn it over them in a moment before we do that I'd like you to read a passage from your book and for someone who looks askance at taking pleasure in writing I don't know how anyone could not take pleasure in writing this passage which describes the situation on Air Force One after the assassination of President Kennedy and with the swearing-in of Vice President Johnson I would add there are two microphones and so if you do have questions please come to one of them I her phones so that people can hear you in your ask a question and we'll start with those questions after Bob reads this magnificent passage well it's in the it's in the compartment of Air Force One and Lyndon Johnson is preparing to take the oath and he's arranged everybody where he wants them one witness was still missing the most important one he told judge use that as the judge recalls his words mrs. Kennedy wanted to be present and we would wait for her close quote do you want to ask mrs. Kennedy if she would like to stand with us he asked O'Donnell and O'Brien when they didn't responded once the glance he threw at them was the old Johnson glance the eyes burning with impatience and anger she said she wants to be here when I take the oath he told O'Donnell why don't you see what's keeping her the scene was still eerie the gloom the heat the whispering the low insistent whine of the jet engine the massive dim faces crowded so close together but one element had vanished the confusion watching Lyndon Johnson arranged the crowd give his orders deal with O'Donnell and O'Brien Liz carpenter dazed by the rush of events realized that there was at least one person in the room who wasn't dazed who was however hectic the situation might be in complete command of it she wrote your mind was so dull but one of the thoughts that went through my mind was someone is in charge close carpenter like jack valenti was an idolaters but the journalists had the same feeling on the ride out to the airport Syd Davis who as he recalls had not known this man except his majority leader and as someone who was thought of by some as Colonel cornpone had said to his colleagues in the car it's going to be hard to learn how to say president lyndon b johnson as davis watched johnson in the stateroom now it was suddenly no longer hard at all soon immediately we started to see the measure of the guy and his leadership qualities part of the feelings stemmed from his size as he stood in front of Judge use towering over everyone in the room the photographer Cecil stout and realized for the first time how big he was big big he loomed over everyone but part of it was something harder to define as Lyndon Johnson arranged the crowd jerking his thumb to show people where he wanted them glancing around with those piercing dark eyes Valenti's initial feeling that this was a different man from the man he had known before was intensified Johnson was suddenly something larger harder to fathom the man he had thought he knew he looked in fact for the first time in three years like the Lyndon Johnson of the Senate floor now he had suddenly come to the very pinnacle of power however he had gotten there whatever concatenation of circumstance and tragedy whatever fate had put him there he was there and he knew what to do there when O'Donnell obeying his order went to her bedroom and Jacqueline Kennedy if she wanted to be present at the swearing-in she said I think I ought to in the light of history it would be better if I was there and followed O'Donnell out to the door of the state from a hush a hush every whisper stopped the reporter Charles Roberts recalls she was still wearing the same suit with the same bloodstains her eyes were chaos down in Judge uses phrase she had apparently tried to comb her hair but it fell down across the left side of her face on her face was a glazed look and she appeared to be crying although no tears were coming out Johnson placed her on his left side and nodded to the judge who held out the missile he put his left hand on it the hand mottled and veined was so large that it all but covered the little book and raised his right hand as the judge said I do solemnly swear Valente watching those hands saw that they were absolutely steady and Lyndon Johnson's voice was steady to low and firm as he spoke the words he had been waiting to speak all his life the oath was over his hand came down now let's get airborne Lyndon Johnson said this gentleman here I wanted to ask you you're very prolific writer I know you've you've had to suffer a lot of your prose being edited I'm sorry works so I know you've had to suffer a lot of your prose being edited during the editing process and with modern technology you can publish now without paper and obviously the focus now is on this book and then finishing the series do you anticipate a day maybe when you might release an author's edition similar to like a director's version on a DVD where the writer has full control of what gets to be included well I'd like to do that I think what you're talking about more is the power broker we I haven't really cut very much out of possibly by mistake but I haven't really cut very much out of the Johnson books out of my first book the power broker we had to cut because they only wanted the publisher only wanted to do one volume so we had to cut out 350,000 words which a lot of words yes the book as you read it as a million fifty thousand words it was seven hundred thousand words but as I finished it it was a million fifty thousand words I would like that to be published one day but I have to first find out where all the missing chopping saw over here yes sir is what was the reaction of the Senators Byrd and Russell and Eastland when they realized that Lyndon Johnson a man they had raised a power in the Senate I was going to portray their dream of a segregated south could you all hear that question yes that's a great question it's one of the I mean uh you know Lyndon Johnson had persuaded these people you're quite right they had raised the power in the Sun the South was behind that's how he became majority leader they believed that he was on their side in civil rights I once went down to ask senator Talmadge you know how Lyndon Johnson had done that since you were black I'm going to choose my words carefully no he said well he persuaded us that he was on our side I said well what did how did he feel what was his view of the role of white and black and he said master and slave so they truly believe this and Richard Russell truly believed it so to think what was their reaction you know when he in his first speech to Congress you know it said if I can just digress for just a second you know I'm sorry I don't want to go into line and try to cut this as short as I can Johnson becomes president and he has to give his first speech to Congress the joint session of Congress and around his home at the Wednesday following the assassination and around the kitchen take on the Tuesday night around this home four or five of his people are writing speechwriter putting together a speech and Johnson is sitting there not saying anything and they are saying on civil rights don't spend your political capital right at the beginning on civil rights don't spend down the southerners control Congress if you antagonize them to stop your whole program it's a noble cause but it's a lost cause don't fight for a lost cause you know what Lyndon Johnson says he says well what the hell's the presidency for and in his speech and in his speech he says the first thing we have to do the most important thing we have to do is pay us Jack Kennedy's civil rights bill so as those words come out of his mouth you see in the newsreels the southern senators Russell Byrd Talmadge the rest of them are sitting because they are the senior senators in this row in front of this and what was in their minds when they realized they had raised the man to power who was not going to do this to him yes I'm sorry to go on so yes hi my name is David bracel I'm a fellow journalist thank you for taking my question I've read all three books I'm about a third of the way through this one all through the books you write about Lyndon Johnson's thirst for becoming president since he was a boy and his pursuit of the ultimate power when he finally did get that ultimate power was it every everything he expected it to be everything he hoped it would be everything he wanted it to be or what no I you know because the story of his presidency after this book is a very dark story the story of his presidency is Vietnam whatever he wanted to do whatever he started to do was ultimately swallowed up by so I think turned out to be sort of terrible for him actually yes sir um obviously the theme of these books isn't just I'm sorry obviously the theme of these books isn't just Lyndon Johnson but it's you know the acquisition and the use of power and earlier in the volumes you sort of taking almost you know remove your eyes from how he's grabbing all this power but then once he gets it they're sort of a grudging admiration for him but I also sense from the Liberal Lions in the Senate and the 50s Humphrey and Douglas that while you're sympathetic to their liberal viewpoints it almost seems like you have almost contempt for the way they don't know how to wield power as Johnson knows how to wield power is that an accurate assumption well I don't know I well it's a good question I don't I don't have contempt for them often I have you know a feeling of exasperation like you will see in this book you know on Johnson gets Humphrey makes him his lieutenant in 1964 and basically teaches him how to count you know and how to get things through the Senate what strategic moves to make and you really say why didn't he know why didn't you would Humphrey know these things you know before it is true that the liberal bloc and the Senate could not get anything passed before Lyndon Johnson took up their course yes sir one of the most difficult portions of your writing your vivid writing for me was early and master that said when you detail his treatment of his wife Lady Bird my questions are too did she ever speak of the pain of that to anyone as a anodyne as a real and number two did she speak with you about that and what we were that you're able to say what we are better sources about invading I'm sorry what was my what your sources that shows you're able to mention who were able to help you invade that private space of his family and his relationship with him yeah Lady Bird well mrs. Johnson did speak to me for seven you know long days she stopped speaking the long before I published any books I I don't know why but she was very you know helpful we only she brought up the subject of a particular mistress of Lyndon Johnson's you know I don't go into I go as little as possible his affairs because most of them don't have any significance but as those of you who've read the first volume know there's one that did have great significance with a woman named Alice glass and she mrs. Johnson brought up Alice glass and spoke of her in the words I simply quote you know we were at her kitchen to add her dining room table and she was sort of sitting here I was sitting here we'd had lunch and she stood I had my notebook here she started talking about Alice glass saying I think whatever I said spend so many years since I wrote that book that she was the most beautiful woman she had ever seen and she taught 'land and so much you know that were that he was grateful for and played such a role in his political career which I had a number of crucial points she did I myself to tell you the truth was so embarrassed by the I mean I just sat there taking notes I don't think I asked the question but you know many this was such a part of Lyndon Johnson's life that you can't talk to his secretaries or his assistants they've written about it in books you know and you can't talk to them without this subject coming up yes sir thank you I just feel like I've almost grown up with you I started reading powerbroker 1974 and then I began waiting for the next publication and the Lyndon Johnson books I read this book you just have here tonight I read that last week I couldn't put it down my question is this we've been together for 40 years how long do I have to wait for the next book that's started out as such a nice question well actually I'm hoping you know but why would you believe me that this one will go faster because this book you finished was originally supposed to be just like the first third of one book on so I did most of the research the bulk of the research for those for the whole book that is done so I'm hoping this will go a lot faster just one last point did you actually live in Vietnam I read that some no no we're going to live in me you were going yeah yeah yeah thank you Thanks yes sir hi I was wondering if you'd speak about Richard Russell during the time of the start of the Johnson administration he's such a he's such a dramatic figure in the the previous book and in this one it seems almost more like like he's he's LBJ's lieutenant a bit well that's that's gonna stop right at the beginning the next book because Johnson Troy's you know is determined to pass the civil rights legislation and it's Russell's last and you know to stop it you know however you know it's not so much that he says lieutenant you know loneliness plays a part big part in the Richard Russell's story that's how Lyndon Johnson gets close to him in 19th when he first comes to the Senate in 1948 and 1949 there is this towering figure you know who simply is the most powerful the most respected senator but yet is this horrible worst kind of segregationist who won't even vote for legislation against lynching he won't I mean so Johnson gets close to him you know he stood Johnson is he sees mens weaknesses he's this unbelievable sense everyone thinks Russell is on approachable but he's a bachelor and he goes home every night to a bachelor apartment in Washington reads all the time his only life as the senate so johnson starts to stay late first he gets himself put on Russell's committee then he starts to stay late at the Capitol because Russell's always staying late then he starts that say let's get you know Russell gets a hamburger and someplace I forget the name near Capitol Hill Johnson's thoughts to get a hamburger there says come on home for dinner after a while I said Russell doesn't go to people's homes for dinner he says come on Johnson they say you got to eat somewhere you know and lady but he comes to the Johnson home for dinner and Lady Bird is there who just wins over everybody's heart she's quite a charming wonderful person and a personification of the Southern womanhood that Richard Russell idolized and the two girls are there and gradually very gradually but steadily Richard Russell becomes spends more and time more and more time with Lyndon Johnson so when you say why didn't Russell oppose him on everything after he became president you know you really have to think that there's an element there personal element that Lyndon Johnson's friendship was very important to Richard Russell and I think that's a big big part of the explanation hello when I visit I when I visited the Lyndon Johnson library this this past January I was very shocked to see a copy of a letter that Senator Goldwater wrote in July of 1960 I which included this sentence it is difficult to imagine a person like you and this is written you know to Lyndon Johnson like you running in a second spot to a weaker man now it's not surprising that Senator Goldwater would write this letter but I was surprised to see it on public display in the Johnson Museum because if you go through our Museum here our Museum I practically feel that way you'll let us see anything disparaging about you know about Lyndon Johnson so I was wondering if you could comment on that um well I'm not sure I'm I'm not sure that I have a thought you know I have a thought on that so it's an interesting letter you know there's still you know just on at least on the Johnson side it would be silly to pretend that there isn't any feelings about the Kennedy brothers John and Robert Johnson regarded himself as trapped between the two of them in history as in a way he is you know he regarded himself you know if you read the book that you know this book the passage of power you'll see how he felt so keenly you know that um not only that they were better educated but that he had been cheated out of an education you know because he had to go to what it was he called the poor boys school for boys college that he felt that they had social graces that he had worked his way up you know and they were too rich kids who would go on had a rich father he felt these things terribly deeply and you can't really talk well they're all I said have to put in the past tense because they're just about all dead now when you talk to the Johnson people people you can't this feeling so pervades you know and they may say for the record you know that it wasn't the case but that is the case and of course on the Kennedy saw it what they did to Johnson you know whenever Lyndon Johnson on the rare occasions that Lyndon Johnson was invited during the Camelot years out to Robert Kennedy's home Hickory Hill he would be put at what Ethel called the losers take you know and Johnson knew it was the losers type you know and the insults on both sides are really just startling and the fact that they haven't been really written about that we did not true they have been written about but I don't think they've ever been written about he the depth necessary to explain why they played such a there was such a factor in the unfolding of American history I don't think has been done there very strong feelings yes ma'am my question is goes along the lines of what you were just talking about and I'm wondering whether Robert Kennedy's hatred of Johnson was exacerbated in hindsight when they realized that they hadn't used his power to get Kennedy's legislation passed and whether Robert felt that way and whether in hindsight any of the other members of the Kennedy administration felt that regret no they didn't know I don't I think I can say they didn't feel any regret I think there is a real feeling and it's a very complicated subject it's going to be going into in the beginning of the next book would the civil rights legislation have passed if President Kennedy hadn't been assassinated you've been elected to a second term that's such a complicated you know question I know because we know from Robert Kennedy's oral histories that he was very felt very strongly that Lyndon Johnson was getting credit for stuff that they had started and they would have passed anyway that's a tremendously strong feeling and this feeling is just as strong on the side of johnson partisan that have been passed if Johnson hadn't become president what do you think I think I'm going to have to examine it for no it's it's such a complicated thing I mean then there's so many ifs you know if Goldwater hadn't been the nominee if this is that even there hundred ifs so I'm going to take a pass on a flat answer to that because I don't think there is a flat answer to that yeah yes ma'am yes wonderful presentation I'm just wondering um what advice could um what what advice could our President Obama or what could he learn from Lyndon Johnson well I'm always getting I I have a much higher opinion of President Obama than a lot of people who asked that question I mean I think he's accomplished quite a bit considering so I'm not going to answer it in that you know in that way you could say what could President Johnson have learned from President Obama how to inspire people you know the importance of rhetoric which touches things in people anybody not just President Obama would learn from Lyndon Johnson things about legislation because he is the greatest legislature you know Johnson says I can't remember that title of one of my chapters or not to write it in the books of law you know it is yeah I mean in that first speech which is just such his first speech to Congress he says that we we've been talking about civil rights for 100 years it's time to write it in the books of law to Lyndon Johnson some that was that was maybe in his view the job but certainly a job of the President to write it in the books of law to pass legislation it's not enough to talk about legislation ah Lyndon Johnson wanted it passed and I think anybody you know in England fascinating they were that's a sort of a boastful thing to say but in England the leading politicians cabinet ministers of both parties you know always talking about my books because what he they are parliamentarians they're your legislators and Lyndon Johnson was the great legislator so I think anybody would learn from Lyndon Johnson I am constantly I told you a story about Senator the civil rights bill that 9:00 to 8:00 and I told you a story about the excuse me the tax cut bill in the civil rights bill to discharge you know I am amazed by the things that he pulls off you cannot believe when Johnson starts in the last book to pay us the first civil rights bill since reconstruction so you say that this is impossible and you can see the tally sheets Johnson kept a tally sheet every day to be a little one thing senator tally sheets within the names of the Senators down in the middle and a little line on each side and Johnson would put in a number you know on each side as he got each vote and the sheets are smudged you know and I asked various of Johnson's people you know something that they said you see the smudges that was Johnson's thumb because he wouldn't move it on to another number to the next line until he knew which side that senator was on I mean it's it's a great legislator yes sir hi um it's been 30 years since you published a birthday and my question generally is in that 30 years have any of your opinions of the man changed has anything evolved and in particular in your introduction to the first book which I just was reading as I got here you speak of the unusual degree to which the workings of his personality were perhaps not on the surface but in reality unencumbered by philosophy or ideology and in the introduction to your newest book it really seems though that he does have a philosophy or at least some kind of ideology for the little man and I'm wondering if if that has changed well if that's how you define ideology you know you know you were right but my opinion of him I wouldn't quite define I would call it compassion and override and they asked compassion for poor people and particularly poor people of color I think in that first book you know there's a chapter they're called Cotulla and what that is about I know I've said this a couple of times recently maybe I don't want to when Johnson was 20 years old he's in college and he's very poor and he doesn't have enough money he has to drop out for a year between a sophomore and junior year is to get enough money to continue and he teaches that year in what was called the Mexican school and this little town of catullo down near the Rio Grande border and those kids you know they gave oral history reminiscences at all and I wrote after reading them no teacher had ever cared if these kids learned or not this teacher cared so you might say that that was just Lyndon Johnson trying to do the best job he could in whatever job he had which was indeed a characteristic of Lyndon Johnson but the reason I feel he truly cared was that he didn't just teach the kids he taught the janitor the janitor his name at the school was Tomas Coronado and Johnson feels it's very important that he learn English if he's going to get ahead so he buys him a textbook and every day before and after school Coronado says he sat Johnson sits with him on the steps of the school and a textbook and Coronado says Johnson would spell I would repeat Johnson would pronounce I would repeat I think he all his life had this compassion when he gets to be President then he gives this speech and some Richard Goodwin another one of his aides for a while in our course the Kennedy assistant as well says something to me he says I'll tell you something I swore then meaning back in Cotulla that if I ever had the power to help these kids I was going to do it now I have the power and I'll tell you a secret I mean to use it and I feel that's a continuing thread through his life I just wouldn't put yes sir do you have any idea why Bill Moyers won't talk to you no yes sir Caesar you've done so much research in archives and interviews and listening to tapes what was some of the occasions when you were so surprised or upset or thrilled that you couldn't sleep that night well there been a lot of things like that you know you find stuff in these papers that you know if you care about political power it's sort of thrilling to watch Lyndon Johnson do it you know one of the things is when I realized what he was doing see if I can do this short in passing the civil rights bill of 1957 so on these tally sheets he's so far behind he knows he's not going to be able to get this bill passed one at a time he's got to find a block of votes and he finds one in flesh you know if you were talking about an artist or you call it an epiphany you know it's as flash of inspiration that they're 12 Western senators who want a dam called the Hells Canyon Dam if he can someway find a way to link them up with the South's there's a willingness to let the bill go one step further in the legislative process without filibustering and he finds that way and as you you almost see him they putting this together and you say wow you know this is really genius yes sir hi um question is after 30 years of writing about one person do you how's your personal feelings about have changed and can you write for 30 years do research and not love the person and does that bias you as a historian well I don't think love is an applicable term you know people usually act as do I like or dislike Lyndon John I really say as I think I once said to mark years ago in an interview um those are inapplicable terms to me I'm in or of Lyndon Johnson because these books are you know in my view they're not supposed to be about just Lyndon Johnson they're supposed to be about AmeriCorps in the second hair for the twentieth century and how political power changed it's about the workings of political power and as I said a moment ago so I won't repeat it watching Johnson doing you were just awestruck by what he can do thank you thank you yes first mr. Carroll thank you for your books and your excellent fact-based erudite historical and political analysis it's been great I heard you speak over the Kennedy Center and I first wanted to speak to one of the issues you just mentioned that time you talked about Johnson is the super legislator shortly thereafter I had the privilege of talking to Ted Sorensen and Nicholas katzenback and they were on the dais and they were doing that and so I had to ask the question that you more or less had primed and that is would the legislation the civil rights legislation go through kasa back said he thought kennedy would have done it Sorensen he said possibly not so I just wanted to give you that thank you sure I didn't know that thank you second um your your research is phenomenal how much of your success do you think you owe to your wife II know is a Island historian Anna and a researcher well III o Allah I owe a lot of my success I owe the very fact you know that I'm a writer to einer because when I was starting the powerbroker we were really broke I was doing this book on you know what we call the world's smallest advance you know that that God less funny is telling fast so I came home you know there was a point where I didn't know you know we didn't know how I could go on doing it and I came home one day and ina said you know we sold the house so I loved that house I didn't really care about it but and ina you know in the first place you have to say Einar is a brilliant historian she's written two books the road from the pea to books about the intersection of history and travel in France she's a medieval historian the road from the past and Paris to the past these books of brilliant books in themselves she's also the only person I could ever trust you know to do research because ina has an absolute integrity and if you she says I'll go down to the Russell library as she did and I'll find everything there is to find I go through all his papers on the Civil Rights Act of 67 you know she will go through every paper and she also understands I what it is that I want so if she finds you know she of course that I found this isn't what you asked for but I found something I said she's the only person that she is you know as I written as I call her the whole team you know she's the only researcher on the books yes ma'am I'd like to tell her we ever thought about Wendy Johnson okay sure JFK of course was Irish Catholic for Boston Democrat all of which I was that I was able for the first time I like to vote in the election for Kennedy and by the year later the four of us recent graduates from college went down to Washington DC for the first time and we happen to go into the Senate building and would get getting order to an elevator and the door opened and Lyndon Johnson was on the elevator going up so there just the five of us and so overcome with excitement and it he has about Kennedy got word dejar said I started telling her we were from Massachusetts and you know how excited I was to be there and one of the girls matches years from Massachusetts but she didn't mention that she said she's from Rhode Island she's working at the naval base and he immediately ignored us and turned to her I started waxing enthusiastically about Senate agreed Hey big-big fairly intelligent I realized you know he doesn't want to talk to us at all yeah I made a big mistake so I got the oppression guy yeah just a personal forgiving a yeah that's a wonderful Anika yeah I got I forgot you know what I wasn't really impressed meeting him at all I didn't know that much about him but I had followed and worked for the Kennedy campaign at everything it was my first you know it's addiction to politics and everybody at Boston was so excited you know something thank you good thanks a lot I thank you for taking my question like a lot of people here I've read most of these books I read the first three I haven't started the fourth volume it's okay the test is until Tuesday but as I read these three volumes I've never come across an American figure political or otherwise that has as much Drive determination in single-mindedness of purpose than LBJ and one thing that I can't seem to square or reconcile and I'm sure that your forthcoming volume will address this but how do you take a man like LBJ that has that drive and determination and sense of purpose and how do you square square that with him not running in 68 and I realize that the country was falling apart at the seams I realized it was after Tet and I realized his approval ratings were probably at an all-time low but if what you touched upon earlier if for no other reason despite Robert Kennedy how does he not run in in 68 how does he can how does he drop out or choose not to to run yeah well that's another you know very good question that I haven't come to my conclusions on yet as to why why he does that it's another very complicated thing where you have a lot of conflicting accounts so are those things that I haven't gotten to yet I'll have to take a pass okay well there's only one more person one more question a few years ago on Presidents Day weekend I sat in this room at a forum on presidential tapes and they played presidential tapes from FDR through Richard Nixon each president you are and they played one of Lyndon Johnson's tweeting to dick Russell I think it was 1965 and I remember this very well because I made an impression he was he was talking to Russell he said dick he said I know I can't win this war but I'm god damned if I'm going to be the first u.s. president to lose one that you must be familiar with that and my question and what's been bothering me for more than 40 years is how could Lyndon Johnson such a smart experienced clever man and politician how could he be so blind as to the consequences of knowing that he couldn't win it but refusing to stop it and anything you can shed on that would be very well I can't shed much on it tonight you know because it's again you know I wouldn't want to talk about it until I've written about it you know until I've gotten my conclusions but I will say you know it's it's so what you say is so accurate because it is a great mystery because when you read the notes Johnson wouldn't allow minutes to be taken of the meetings of which the key Vietnam decisions were made but there are notes that would take it and each time you read the notes you think oh they're good they're going to de-escalate they have to de-escalate the arguments but every time he escalates well that's an exact but most times he escalate so it's a mystery all right thank you very much whoops you

Channel: JFK Library

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Keywords: Robert Caro, LBJ, Lyndon Johnson, Boston Globe, Pulitzer Prize, Mark Feeney

Id: APLVQpmHUho

Length: 77min 0sec (4620 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 12 2012