Q&A: Robert Caro - Part 1

this week on cue and a two-time Pulitzer Prize winning author Robert Caro discusses the passage of power his latest book in the multi-volume biography series entitled the years of Lyndon Johnson Robert Caro and your fourth book about Lyndon Johnson the passage of power you talk about the tension between Lyndon Baines Johnson and Robert Kennedy yes give us some background on when they met and why there was so much hatred between the two well the first time they met is fascinating Lyndon Johnson is the great powerful majority leader of the Senate Robert Kennedy is this 27 year old new staffer for Senator Joseph McCarthy and his committee the first how do we know what happened the first time they met because two of Johnson's stay of people were with him and told me the same story he had breakfast every morning Johnson in the Senate cafeteria and Joe McCarthy had this big round table near the cashiers register where he would sit with his staffers and Johnson walks in one morning and McCarthy is there with four or five of his staffers including Bobby Kennedy and McCarthy jumps up in deference to Johnson as they all do and all the other staffers get up except Robert Kennedy he just sits there and Johnson walks over to the table and shakes hands he sees that Bobby Kennedy isn't getting up so Johnson you know knows how to handle any situation like that so he sort of stands there as it's described to me like this sort of forcing Robert Kennedy to get up and he does and George Reed II who was Johnson's press secretary who was there says there was no reason for you ever see two dogs come into a room and they've never met and the hair rises on the back of their neck and there's a low growl there was just something chemical between those two guys when was the next time they had some kind of a confrontation well the next time they actually had a confrontation would probably be at the Democratic convention in 1960 where Jack Kennedy joined President Kennedy well is still the nominee has offered Lyndon Johnson the vice presidency just a second on Stuart age factor how old would Bobby Kennedy roughly been then and how old would Lyndon Johnson have been in 1960 yeah well Lyndon Johnson was 52 I can answer that very quickly Bobby Kennedy was born in 29 so I guess he was 34 35 yeah but so there was a great deal difference in age and what Hedlund and Johnson done up until the time he was selected and what did Robert Kennedy done well up to the time at the time that Johnson starts running against Jack Kennedy for the nomination for the 1960 Democratic nomination he has been the Senate Majority Leader for six years he has been the greatest majority leader in history he made the Senate work it introduced its own bills at passed bills it was the center of governmental ingenuity and energy in Washington and he was considered the most powerful Democrat in the country the second they called him the second most powerful man in the country second only to President Eisenhower Robert Kennedy had been a congressional staffer but for the last two years he had been running his brothers presidential campaign you say he worked for Joseph McCarthy why well he left them caught these committee eventually you know but there was a time and he's Frank to admit it in his memoirs where he believed that something had to be done about the communist conspiracy in this country and that McCarthy was the only person doing it and you know considering its know a large part of this book is about how Bobby Kennedy changed as a fascinating thing I mean it's an evolution you know he says to somebody all that happened was I got older but I don't think that's all that happened he changed as a human being into something by the end of the book you see something quite different but when he was a young prosecutor for first McCarthy's Finney and Gen John the felons rackets committee liberals called him a Torquemada and if you see newsreels of him questioning witnesses in this way you know not giving them a chance to answer you know he was a very hard-nosed militant prosecutor so you go back to the sixty convention yes why did John F Kennedy offer Lyndon Johnson the vice presidency can I say first nobody knows you know what's in somebody's mind he had in retrospect we see and do I think that Joanne F Kennedy saw it from the beginning not in retrospect because he was quite a brilliant politician he had to have Lyndon Johnson in 1956 Eisenhower had kicked a solid South was not solid for the Democrats anymore Eisenhower had taken five of the eleven Confederate states in 1956 one of them was Texas no Democrat including John F Kennedy was going to win the presidential election against Nixon without carrying Texas so we had in a way you say he had to have Johnson on the ticket so Lyndon Johnson ran against him for the nomination why did he lose well that's one of the fascinating stories in the book you know to me once I did it fascinating but it's fascinating all his life the one quality about Lyndon Johnson about is his decisiveness his or will his ability to his willingness to act to make decisions and to why I'm to try as hard as he could for everything here he's wanted to be President all his life you know Lyndon Johnson has only had one goal in his life to be President in 1958 he seems perfectly determined perfectly positioned to become president he's been the majority leader he has all the senators in his camp he has passed the first Civil Rights Act in history to blunt some of the northern antagonism to him he calls I have in the book in in 1958 he calls seven or eight of his top lieutenants to his ranch he says I'm destined to be President I mean one of them says yeah I was meant to be President you all know that and I'm going to be President and then suddenly and they're waiting for the campaign to begin and suddenly he doesn't run he doesn't give any orders he doesn't want to go and speak anywhere he's terribly indecisive and really he throws away his chance at this nomination why well it people who knew him best say like John Connally was his who later became secretary of the Treasury secretary of the Navy his great politician once had me down to his ranch for three days and those interviews were fascinating to me because he was closer to Lyndon Johnson during his early early years and anywhere anyone else he'd come to me to my guesthouse he had this grand great ranch down her Floresville you come about 5:30 in the morning or six o'clock in the morning he'd knock on my door he'd be in jeans and that an open you know ranches shirt he then had a great stable of quarter horses we go over to the railing with a Mexican Vaqueros were running them and we'd sit on the fence and he talked to me and I asked him that question he said you know the one thing about Lyndon Johnson he was afraid to fail why was he afraid to fail his brother Sam Houston Johnson said to me the one thing that was most important to Lyndon was not to be like Daddy his father had been a politician for a while a successful politician and had failed lost the ranch and the family was plunged into not only bankruptcy but being the laughingstock of their town so Johnson when he was Senate Majority Leader you know Bobby Baker is his the man who counted votes for him and Baker says I learned never to let him fail on a vote never by the way in your acknowledgments you say there are two people that have not talked to you one of them Bobby Baker and the other Bill Moyers for a why not and how hard have you worked to get them to talk to you well but the Bobby Baker years ago I made repeated efforts to get him to talk to me he doesn't think much of my books as for mr. Moyers he does say complimentary things about my books you know he said repeatedly I think complimentary things about my books but he simply said that he doesn't want to talk to for a long time and we said that he was going to do his own book on Lyndon Johnson which is perfectly you know understandable I don't think he said that for many years he simply you'd have to ask him why he hasn't thought what have you missed because these two men I know you there's a lot of these people have told you but what have you missed from either Bobby Baker or Bill Moyers well you miss a lot from both of them you can remedy like of course Bobby Baker went to jail he had a trial long trial he's written a very revealing memoir and there's so much testimony about him at the time of the scandal in the book that you were able to put together most of a picture of what you want but of course it would be better it's always better you know I've talked I don't think there's another off the top of my head I can't I can't think of another Johnson person important to me who didn't talk to me I'm sure there's somebody but I've talked to you know scores and scores of them and people like hot George really or Horace Busbee I've talked to probably 20 or 30 times whenever you can't talk to someone you miss something how much of the bill moyers lack of talking about this has anything to do with some of the charges made back when he was an aide that he was involved in things like wiretapping of Barry Goldwater you'd have grown I have to say you'd have to ask him that you know with Moyers there are he's written so many memos you know I think I spent three probably three months going through all the Moyers memos when he was Johnson's aide and in a in the White House so you see a lot of what he was doing but of course you know he's a very keen observer of people and you'd like to have been able to talk them go back to the relationship between Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy you okay could I Jessica I so his brother said that Lyndon Johnson was afraid to fail all the people who knew him best say he was afraid to fail to be like his father and he was afraid that if he ran for the presidency he would fail that's really basically I think why he didn't run hard widenar on her I want to go back to barbecue how badly did JFK beat LBJ well the final the final tally on the first ballot was 806 to 409 but that's not a realistic talent tally when they get up to Wyoming Kennedy still doesn't have the necessary votes and you see Johnson's strategy and it's a strategy that the more you look at 1960 you say gee it would have worked if only he can keep Kennedy from getting a majority in the first ballot the bosses the the day of Lawrence's the dick Daly's the carmine DeSapio s in the back rooms they will want Lyndon Johnson and Kennedy comes close when it gets down to Wyoming he still doesn't have the necessary votes the chairman of the Wyoming delegation has promised Teddy Kennedy that if it comes down to his delegation he will give the last five votes of that delegation he they have 10 of the 15 he will give anyway he will give the last five votes to Kennedy and you see it's coming down through Wyoming and Walter Cronkite says on television there's Teddy Kennedy hurrying across the floor did you know and he's hurrying over to the Wyoming delegation and you see him say something to the delegation chairman who says Wyoming casts as 15 votes for John F Kennedy so after Kennedy has the majority of course a number of states switched to him but actually it was it was close that he was going to make it on the first ballot I started to ask you earlier you say of LBJ and Robert Kennedy that they were both ruthless yes explain what that means and give us some examples that you can well of course it's always easier to do it for me with Lyndon Johnson Johnson's ruthlessness throughout his life was was striking you know in the last volume he roomed he destroyed the Senate career of the senator named Darryl Clements by forcing him vote for what later an early version of Medicare he Clemens knew that if he voted for it he would be destroyed because the AMA had been very active in his in his state and they call the socialized medicine so Johnson says unless it's a tow unless I need your vote I won't call on you but he really knows that he needs the vote and when it's it I think it's a toy a vote and he sends Bobby Baker to Clemens and Baker says the sweat was pouring down Clemens his face but he had to give that vote Johnson had to win he had to win Robert Kennedy had to win also and it's quite fascinating in this 1960 campaign Johnson realizes the key to the campaign or the western states Johnson thinks he has them the Kennedys think at the beginning that he has them so they send their younger brother Ted out there because he's the youngest and it doesn't even they've lost anyway Ted is such a great politician or whatever age he is like 27 that he starts to win the western state Bobby goes out to reinforce this and Johnson then realizes what's happening and starts but he says someone had I forget the guy who put who went out there for Johnson first says Robert Kennedy had put the bridle and the halter on the delegates and once Bobby Kennedy put that bridle on these people knew they could not take it off go though to the selection of LBJ as vice president running made for John F Kennedy there's a huge amount of your book of back and forth is not a huge amount but there's a lot the back and forth of Bobby Kennedy's involvement did he really try to stop his brother from putting LBJ on the tea well let's say he tried to get that what there's no question about is that he tried desperately to get Lyndon Johnson to withdraw or not to accept the offer of the vice presidency that the Kennedy has won in the scene the night before with 806 votes on the on the ballot the next morning at 8 o'clock Kennedy goes now yet this is in the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles the two suites of the two candidates are in the a back corner of the hotel Johnson's in 70 on the seventh floor in 73 34 Kennedy's two floors up it in 93 34 but there were Suites of rooms I have to stop you for a minute you go to those sweets yes how long well it's it's been renovated it's not it wasn't productive you you couldn't tell what they had been like before okay go ahead yeah I'm sorry so there's a back stairs this chapter of my book is called the back stairs so at night in the morning Jack Kennedy comes down the back stairs because they don't want the reporters just see him either humor Robert and authors Lyndon joke on verse a shoe with Lyndon Johnson you know whenever there are only two people in a room Brian you really can't say as a historian you know what happened because one gives one version and one gives the other but we know what happened after the meaning Johnson cools in his three closest advisors that's John Connally Bobby Baker and James H ro jr. who had been Roosevelt's advisor and Truman advisor and he says Jack Kennedy was just down here in the Orford me the vice presidency that's what Johnson says Kennedy goes back upstairs where there's a group of northern voices who know they can count votes that Kennedy has to have Texas and some southern states there's Dave Lawrence for one is up there and Kennedy walks into the and he says he hasn't said he'll accept them but it looks like he's going to and Lawrence is a picture in this book of this very moment and Lawrence a tough old Irish politician reaches out his hands to Jack Kennedy this young great you know charismatic handsome Irish politician and they shake hands because Lawrence knows this is the key to the election what happens the rest of that day I say no one can know every everybody has different versions but we do know that Bobby Kennedy came down those back stairs at least three times and each time tried to get Lyndon Johnson to withdraw from the ticket so which version do you trust the most of whether they met three times and what happened in those meetings well what happened in the meetings in two of the meetings we we do know because there are other people involved like the first time that Bobby Kennedy comes down he meets with John Connally and Sam Rayburn Sam Rayburn gave a description of what happened a couple of weeks later so we have that and John Connolly talked to me I took him back over when basically what happened as Robert Kennedy comes down he's very upset a Rayburn says in his statement his hair was hanging all down excuse me Sarah was hanging down all over his face and he basically says we're gonna have a floor fight the labor and the liberals won't stand for Lyndon Johnson they're going to put up their own candidate and we'd like him to consider instead being the chairman of the Democratic National Committee Raber and replies with a single word epithet and Robert Kennedy leaves and took we know what happened in that because Conley and Rayburn both say the same thing the second time Robert Kennedy comes down he apparently made going on too long here okay the second time he comes down what's happened what happens is that Joe and I have each of these meetings he wants to meet with Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird is saying I don't think they were to meet together I don't think they were to meet together and Rayburn also knows they shouldn't meet together there's simply too much antagonism there and the second time that Bobby Kennedy guy comes down Connelly says I got to get Raber you know Johnson said of Connelly he made him as campaign manager because he was the only man tough enough to handle Bobby Kennedy but Connally knows that and tough as he is and he knows he's tough there's someone a lot tougher and it's Sam Rayburn Sam Rayburn is old we know now he has cancer at the time he's blind but he Sam Rayburn this massive unsmiling grim figure who has ruled the House of Representatives for a quarter of a second and he's from Texas so tell us why he and Lyndon Johnson are so personally close it was almost a father-son thing Rayburn loved Lyndon Johnson like a son and he would spend perhaps most Sundays in Washington at the Johnson's home and he loved the two Johnson girls and all during Johnson's Senate career Rayburn is his rock rave Ernest is a support Rayburn is the guy nobody can go around and he's for Lyndon Johnson and Connally says to Harris Busbee the speechwriter go in there and talk to Bobby Kennedy keep him occupied I'm got to find Sam Rayburn Busbee walks in the room he's a very smart brilliant yet little man but a little timid and he walks right back out he says Bobby Kennedy was glaring at me I couldn't that that was a glare he says I walked outside I said I'll deal with him from out here I won't stay in there and Connally comes back with Sam Rayburn and Bobby Kennedy says basically that he wants Lyndon Johnson to withdraw from the ticket ten raver and says to Bobby Kennedy are you authorized this old blind man so tough he says are you authorized to speak for your brother and Bobby Kennedy says no and Rayburn says then come back and speak to the Speaker of the House of Representatives when you are that's the second Bobby Kennedy leaves goes back upstairs and there is yet a third time he tries to come down to get Johnson to withdraw from the ticket and this time he meets with Johnson alone so what do you think after all the research you've done did Jack Kennedy send his brother down to get him off the ticket or not I do not know okay I don't know I don't know one can really know that and Robert Kennedy in his oral history says basically an answer to your question if you were sitting there of course not I was so close to my brother what do you think I did go down and secretly try to get as a vice president north to take it however all the other thing we know is that all that day Jack Kennedy did everything he could to get Johnson to accept the nomination at one point he goes down Jack Kennedy goes down the same back stairs to see Sam Rayburn alone and Raver I don't remember this this quota love him but Rayburn said in his description of this says basically to Jack Kennedy I asked you two things will you keep Johnson Lyndon Johnson occupied and happy as vice president and something else and Kennedy says I will you make him a real part of your administration Kennedy says I tell you that and Rayburn says then he says basically then Johnson will go on I agree that Johnson can go on the ticket because Johnson will not go on the ticket affray Byrne doesn't approve that what did the Kennedy people call Lyndon Johnson behind his back among other things Rufus corn phone uncle cornpone uncle Rufus why well they are of course mocking the fact that he has the southern accent they're mocking the fact that he's a big thumbs e southerner you know that he's corny in there but beyond that you say why did they treat him with a meanness in fact they cruelty outlook cruelty when you get down to it for three years I try to explain you know that in the book among other things they were afraid of him they had watched Lyndon Johnson you know when he was Majority Leader run Washington they had seen his incredible energy his incredible drive in one night Robert Kennedy when he's still in the Senate is leaving you know he's been working till midnight or 1:00 o'clock whatever at the time is he's walking out and there's one like building the one light burning in the Capitol and it's in Lyndon Johnson's office and he turns who says and he says nobody out works Lyndon they're afraid that if they let Lyndon Johnson off a very tight leash he will start to build up his own power in Washington if I count right including the index and in your four books thirty two hundred and sixty seven pages is that right thirty two hundred and sixty seven pages now the last time we chatted a couple of years ago you were going to have four books and that was it on Lyndon Johnson yes what happened you got five you got a fifth one coming yes I have a fifth one today I've divided the what I thought was well you know what happened well that's such a good question you know the last half of this book is the assassination and what happens in the forty-seven days after that and I'm writing it and I'm watching Lyndon Johnson take all the reigns of power so dramatic to see what he does I'm saying you know all my books I know I've told you this on previous programs I don't regard of this is just the biography of Lyndon Johnson I want each book to examine the kind of political power in America I'm saying this is a kind of political power seeing what a president can do in a moment of great cry in a time of great crisis great crisis how he gathers all the round what does he do to get legislation moving to take command in Washington that's a way of examining power in a time of crisis I said I want to do this in full and suppose it takes 300 pages in there so I couldn't that's why I just said let's examine this in your book Lyndon Johnson I think safe to say does the lies to the public about a number of things including his relation you go on in his relationship with his blind trust and things like that but how often from what you've seen in this book did Lyndon Johnson lied to the public about anything when he became president oh this you know these seven forty-seven days seven weeks he's a period unlike any other in Lyndon Johnson's life I mean he has all these forces within lying is a big part of his entire career up to here but it's like he rises to something else and I don't think it's really part although there are hints of it you know in his stopping the Texas year what he does to stop the Texas journalists from looking into his fortune but it's a minor part of what he does because he knows he has to be a president he has the country needs continuity there young president has just been struck down in an instant and although you know most of these conspiracy theories are disproved in a couple of days that's not the headlines as Air Force One is flying back to Washington here are the headlines you know suspect arrested suspect charged suspect visited Soviet embassy in Mexico City Soviet has a suspect has ties to ka Castro anti-castro groups we had just come through a year before the Cuban Missile Crisis nuclear crisis of nuclear war the country it would be very easy for the for the country to become very it's worried there's an anger that let me strike that the country was worried there was a great anxiety in the country Johnson knows he has to step off that plane and be a president and he is he rises to it and for the next seven weeks he he is a president there are no rages you know yeah you've interviewed me before a big part of them in Johnson's life is not just as lying but his raging is bullying of subordinates there's none of that someone says it's like an alarm clock had always told him to yell at somebody every 20 minutes he says for seven weeks this alarm clock didn't go off actually want to take a moment out here in just a couple minutes and run a audio tape of one of your sources before I do though I want to ask you to tell us how important Gorge Reedy was to this book George really was really important to this but it was it George read he was Lyndon Johnson's press secretary for basically within a couple of intervals from 1950 to 1960 65 and in the Senate he was the closest aide to him and he and Johnson relied on him for strategy really was quite a brilliant man and Johnson relied on him to help him work out the strategy in the Senate this is about a couple of minutes and it's Lyndon Johnson on the phone with George Reedy so we can get a sense of what their relationship was okay [Music] [Music] [Music] there's a lot in there I want to ask you about including his reference to Jessie Callum just so we could put that into perspective yes Jessie Kellan was the manager of the Johnson radio and television stations in Austin and how many stations did they have you know Austin what Weston had only one television station W LBJ that later changed different core letters but it had all three networks it was yesterday yes it did why only one television the FCC only allowed one channel there you know airplane pilots used to say you could always get lowest over the United States you could always tell when you were over Austin it was the only city that only had one television antenna you do talk in the book about Jessie Kellam and the money managers of Lyndon Johnson and I'll come back to that but what did you hear in that well I heard first of all a press secretary and really was always like this who wasn't going to agree with Lyndon Johnson he says no they'll carry it this is what I arranged I acted I'm explaining it to you that's why if you really acted I'm gonna go into this next volume some Hmong the reasons that Johnson gets rid of George Reedy as the Vietnam war escalates really is telling him not to escalate it and Johnson doesn't want to hear it and really always tried to tell Johnson the truth second thing you hear is Johnson this is a master politician he's a micromanager he's thinking what time there's a go on in California and he's probably right about that it seems to me is right about this he wants it at seven o'clock instead of 6:45 but he manages every detail of everything the third thing I hear is the tone of his voice they're telling you the truth his tone with Reedy that's a sort of there are other conversations where the tone is a lot harsher a lot more demanding the jessy kehling part of it what do you hear what you hear that I mean you hear him even harsher winsome colors yes but go back to the Jessie Callum thing and I ask you about how often he lied to the public you have a whole section where you talk about his relationship to the media and his threats yes I mean we heard a lot of that during the Nixon administration but this was going on I don't think we've known this about Johnson it's the reason that I do go into the the three threats that he makes down in December 1963 he's been in office for a month from November 22nd obviously and he's defeated Congress he got Kennedy civil right bill started through Congress he's got Kennedy's tax belt cut bill which was still started he defeats Congress on another thing he just murdered he says I want the murder and he murders them he flies off to Texas and butt down for two week vacation during which he thoughts to create the war on poverty wonderful thing but he also has a number of conversations about he's worried that the press is getting too close to the fact that he's accumulated a fortune during his life what you want me to tell about the Kellerman journals were one of them involves this man Jesse kelan kelan comes out to the ranch and says there's a reporter Margaret Meyer and they why you're but pronounced Meyer from the Dallas Times Herald who sent me this list of questions what do I do about it Johnson telephones the managing editor of Myers newspaper the Dallas Times Herald and says basically the exact quotes are in the book says you know you don't want to be investigated me because you know someone might investigate you and I don't know if he actually uses the word tax returns but it's pretty he says we may investigate you know a lot of things we can investigate he says we can investigate licenses you know and he says you know there's a sentence in there I can't remember it but it's approximately you know the last time they were up for an application they didn't go into thanks to me the public service percentage meaning the FCC likes to look at how much of of television time how much time a regular television station devotes to none paying public servicing so he's basically saying I helped you before I might not help you again and someone might start looking into these things the managing editor and Albert Jackson is heard on the phone he's saying don't worry we'll stop her we'll stop Margaret Meyer I Johnson said I'll talk to her next week Johnson says something like next weeks not good enough it's a Saturday call me back tomorrow morning tomorrow morning Jackson calls back and says she will be stopped and was she yes I talked to her about it yeah I they made clear to her they didn't want the store they didn't want her investigating how long did she stay with the paper oh she stayed Margaret Meyer you know was a quite a wonderful in an era before women became bureau chiefs in Washington I think she I say I think she was the first woman to head the Washington bureau of a national newspaper and she became a great close friend of mine I'd like to say it was very helpful she covered Lyndon Johnson you know for years and years but she knew she was stopped on this we hear politicians tell us all the time the money's in a blind trust yeah whatever they own whatever they are worth it's being invested in a blind trust you know suggests in the book that it wasn't very blind well I don't think I yes the people involved say it wasn't very blind and in fact he had I talked to the there was a law firm called Morrison and Ferguson Morrison was one of the trustees of the blind trust and his partner Thomas Ferguson who was a judge in the hill country would tell me that it seemed like again the the correct quotes in the book seemed like almost every night Johnson was talking to Morrison's and telling him what to do but do you say that there was special telephone absolutely there was yes there was a special telephone line in Morrison's house you just picked it up and got the White House there was a special telephone line on the desk of someone named Darryl dthe who was the general manager of Katy PC and several others and this book and we're going to go in in the next book into what was actually happening with the blind trust but in this book what is happening is that Life magazine has found out about this and at the very moment that they have been investigating I they started investigating Bobby Baker in campaign contributions but they soon found that it was leading to Lyndon Johnson the very morning that Jack Kennedy is assassinated as the motorcade has got there at the same time that the motorcade is going through Dallas there is a meeting in the offices of Life magazine to divide up the areas for a major series on what one of them calls Lyndon Johnson's money and they're going to they're about to investigate this they've started and they're about to just make it a big series of articles so this book covers from what time period and ends exactly what time well I well it ends exactly with the State of the Union address on January 8th unless it's the 7th 1964 no January 8th 1964 because in that period of time why I do that in this period of time he takes Kennedy's programs he gets them started he said makes the country stable have a feeling of continuity but he does something more he says to a friend to friends I've got to continue Kennedy's programs but if I want to run for reelection and I want to do what I want to do with the presidency I have to make the program on my own and that Christmas down at the ranch he basically has his advisers advisers create the war on poverty and in the State of the Union address he says too many Americans live on the outskirts of hope and he lays out the basic outline of the Great Society and the war on poverty that's the ending point so back to the Bobby Kennedy LBJ relationship what impacted that relationship Evelynn history Oh an immense it had an immense impact although that's going to play out in 1967 and the largely over Vietnam and in a way over civil rights too but the seeds of it all the absolutely antagonism you know there are scenes in this book where Bobby Kennedy makes lit has Kennedy as Attorney General and has a lot of the power in the administration Johnson is the vice president and John Bobby Kennedy just humiliates him time after time how well in a lot of ways every time Johnson wanted to use a plane excuse me he had to get written permission from the Pentagon but that was Robert Kennedy every time you wanted to give a speech every word had to be cleared and Kennedy does more there are meetings of they are both on the President's Commission on each on civil rights on Equal Opportunity Employment and in two consecutive meanings Johnson is chairing this the scene I mean I when I wrote this you know you really say you can hardly believe that you're writing this Johnson who is once the most powerful man second most haven't it is chairing this meeting all the advisers are around that you say Bobby Kennedy walks in and Y picks on at the aid Johnson's chief aide and starts demanding answers to questions humiliating him you in effect humiliating Johnson and then when Johnson tries to reply Bobby Kennedy walks over to someone else and starts chatting with him Johnson is trying to talk but Bobby Kennedy is having a chat and then he simply walks out of the room on another the second of these meetings he says to a civil rights leader black civil rights needle named Lewis Martin who was also an official and as you know in Kennedy's administration listen I have to catch I have to make a trip I figured what he says I have to catch a plane tell the vice president to cut it short Johnson is giving his thing so that if Lewis and one says I knew both these men he says I did not want to tell the vice president that I knew he I knew how how he would be if he was angry Robert Kennedy comes over and says I told you to go over and tell him to cut it short so more and does Johnson this looks at him and continues talking they're scenes you can hop between Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson in this book that when you're writing them Bryan you can hardly believe you're writing them you keep looking down at your notes to see are you exaggerating or not because it seems you must be exaggerated you talk about Robert Kennedy cutting off his ability to fly wherever he wanted to fly why then did LBJ did the same thing to Hubert Humphrey well when he became his vice president and he wouldn't even let him use a jet plane across the United States you're certainly right you really know this stuff he certainly did the same thing to you but Humphrey perhaps in spades I have to say that I haven't finished my research on why no and that can I take a pass on that it's the next volume and I just don't think I've examined enough well as long as we're there let me ask you about the next volume sure I know you hate this question what's your what is your time does it really matter what I say to you would you believe me this book took ten years yeah yes but although that's not really right because I thought this was going to be one book so a large part of the ten years was done was doing the research on the rest of it I have done most of the research on the next volume as well writing the next volume and putting me have you started rich I've written part of it just small puppet I've written part of it I've outlined it you know now do you think this will be the final book well I thought originally was going to be three volumes and you know I remember you say is this going to be the final book and I said yes and you said that I said it was going to be four volumes and I seem to remember a similar question from you and I said flatly yes so I'm saying is the next one going to be the next the final volume and I say flatly yes what is the update on your memoir that you say you're writing well that's getting very long I can do that sort of when we're not with my I don't know how to say I don't have to do any research on that you know it's my own life it's not sort of a memoir about how I grew up in New York it's more of a memoir about what it was like to try and find out the truth about Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson and how they wielded political power I think there's a lot of stuff that's interesting to me about how they both tried to stop at his family and they would say just say how about how I was tried to it was made difficult for me to do the research on these two books that's a more accurate way of putting it and how I got around that or tried to get around what ways have you changed in the way you approach this whole subject since you began this back in what 19 yeah what ways have I changed yeah you know we've talked about your routine of going to the office having the outline on the wall all those thing and doing your research seven days a week writing and then taking time off and then not playing attention to the book while you were on vacation all that but what is anything changed in this in the way of gathering information no I always try to talk to everybody who's involved in something you see now a lot of the people are dead but I got them you know before they go I'd I'd like to be able to still talk to them excuse me you know I used to be able to call Jewish reading now you know had gone out to Milwaukee we had had many kind of long conversations in person but we got so friendly it got to the point you know you don't know one if you're writing away and there's some detail that you don't have you don't want to stop and have to schmooze somebody before you ask them the question I got so I could just call Reedy I said George when Johnson was meeting with George Wallace where was Johnson on the rocking chair of the sofa he said the rocking chair I say thanks and I go back so not sometimes my hand actually reaches out to the phone the cool Reedy or Horace Busby with or somebody and they're not there anymore but I don't think much has changed and the way I try to do the work Ted Sorensen is gone how important was he to you you write about him in the and you I guess didn't you deliver a eulogy it is like general yes I did inadequate for the help that he gave me you know Ted lives between me and my office we both live on Central Park West at about 69th he lives 162nd I had again formal interviews with him but over and over again on I would call and I asked him about something that happened in the Kennedy administration and he would say generally because he was a very thought he was a very thoughtful man every word I thought it was considered I he'd say I'll think of why don't you come by after work today so I come by and I just meant going into his Lobby and stems walking by it and we'd sit there he lived in this wonderful apartment that looked at it on Central Park West and he was blind or effectively he doesn't like to say he's blind but he was effectively lying so he would sit on one couch and I'd sit on the other and outside the window it would get though I could be late in the afternoon and he would be talking about things and I remember feeling boy I hope nothing happens to him nothing further happens to him because he's the once those lips thought I can't he knows stuff that nobody else know I thought I think his relations to Jack Kennedy was so special and he himself Ted was so brilliant not just at words but at analyzing things that it was like each of these things was like a lesson to me I hasten to say that he wouldn't agree with everything that I have in the book but he told me a lot of things that no one else could have told me and explained a lot of things to me that no one else could have explained to me what part of this book was the hardest to research and write probably John's the hardest to write the hardest to research too was Johnson's vice presidency because it was so poignant the period to see this powerful man humbled humiliated day after day that it was actually painful for me to learn about it I mean I certainly sort of I mean Horace buzzed me once said he couldn't go over to the White House when the rare occasions when Johnson was was over there and watch how the Kennedy lower-level people treated him because it was so horrible and sometimes when they were describing this to me however with Johnson's very complicated character you felt this is a terrible thing to happen to any human being but to happen to a Lyndon Johnson you know somebody said it was like a great bull put out to pasture late in life you know he doesn't know what to do and that's that's what happened to Johnson was there a time before he left the presidency at the end of 68 where he got revenge oh yes although we're gonna see that you know I mean you know it's funny I mean Bobby Kennedy says to Bobby Baker at the Democratic convention when Johnson has insulted Bobby Kennedy's father called the matching bill an umbrella man you know Robert Kennedy loved his father was devoted to his father this fascinating character Joseph Kennedy and Bobby Baker thinks he can judge this is all just in the normal politics so he fights Bobby Baker to come over and have breakfast with him and his wife and it just takes a minute before Bobby Kennedy throws Chaney bills on the table and gets up and says don't worry you'll get yours when the time comes and the three years of johnson's vice presidency giant bobby kennedy seems to think that's his time when Johnson becomes president he starts to act the same way toward Robert Kennedy of all the subject matter besides the vice presidency in here again the civil rights the tax cut all that which of those was the most difficult to get your hands around Oh the tax cut probably the civil rights bills in the tax cut just to understand how Johnson got them moving again you know it's like a lesson in politics I mean it's like why I had to saw him to stop the book here I mean I I said you know you want to just see what he does in this time of crisis and what he does with these two bills which are effectively stole how he almost immediately comes in and gets the moving you say wow you know if you're interested in political power this is I mean he has a gift a legislative gift that I write is beyond the it's a gift beyond the gift the talent beyond the talent that is genius Johnson to see Johnson come in in an instant grasp the situation and know what to do about it it's hard to figure out what he does but when you figure it out it's thrilling how did he turn a hairy bird of Virginia around I mean it's the figure the number in the budget which would blow people's mind today this was 1960 66 63 63 the number is a hundred billion dollars Kennedy's last budget was I think ninety eight point nine billion dollars if I'm wrong I'm and hairy bird has said something like you know it'd be nice of a came in under 100 billion dollars the Kennedy people seemed to feel that he doesn't really mean 100 billion dollars that if he they come in at a hundred and 1.5 or 102 that'll be okay but Harry Byrd is not releasing his the Kennedy tax cut bill he's not releasing the budget from I have to go back and say who Harry Byrne is Harry bird is the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and he rules the say he's one of the Lords of the Senate and he rules the Finance Committee absolutely he's Kennedy introduced the budget and the tax cut bill back in January 63 it's now November 22nd these bills are not going out they are not being released from the Finance Committee Harry and Harry Byrd has sort of linked them together the budget and the tax cut bill Kennedy's people seem to feel that if they only allow if they only get it close to 100 billion dollars that'll be okay they keep talking about going around Harry Bert will go around Harry Bird the night of Jack Kennedy's funeral Johnson summons to the O to his office it's still in the executive office building he's not in the Oval Office Kennedy's three top economic advisors Walter Heller who's the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers Douglas dilling the Secretary of the Treasury and Kermit Gordon the budget bureau's director they hear Kennedy's three top advisors they start to talk about going around Harry Bird Lyndon Johnson basically says I you can't go around heavy bird they said why not Lyndon Johnson basically says there are 17 people on the Finance Committee Harry bird has annoying votes they say how do you know he has nine votes Lyndon Johnson says because Harry Bird always has no vote and all of a sudden two of these people write memos on what happened and again the memos have Johnson saying the same thing they're just small differences in wording all of a sudden they said the problem disappeared we had to give Harry Bird when he wanted on the budget and we could have the tax cut bill and they they realize a hundred billion dollars is a magic figure to Harry Bird he wants the built budget under 100 billion dollars Johnson gives them that and the tax cut Bill's thoughts Robert Enke arrow is our guest this is the years of Lyndon Johnson and his fourth book called the passage of power we thank you thank you [Music] [Music] for a DVD copy of this program call one eight seven seven six six to seven seven to six for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program visit us at QA or QA programs are also available as c-span podcasts [Music]

Channel: C-SPAN

Views: 75,215

Rating: 4.7303371 out of 5

Keywords: C-SPAN, Robert Caro, Lyndon Johnson, LBJ, Q&A

Id: rT48O1Ilp3U

Length: 60min 6sec (3606 seconds)

Published: Mon May 07 2012