The Oath of Vengeance Paladin - D&D: Optimized #63

hi how's it going everybody welcome to  d d optimized part of the d4 network   this is the show where each week we take a  deep dive into one sometimes two specific   character builds for dungeons and dragons 5e not  to tell you the best or only or right way to play   them but to just theorycraft about a character and  crunch numbers and try to build a character that's   both really fun to play in game and also really  powerful so if you enjoy creating characters for   dnd almost as much as playing the game or you're  looking for tips on playing a particular character   that you have in mind then welcome home this is  where you belong and i am super happy to have   you so thanks for being here my name is colby and  i will be your host before we jump into the build   this week if you would like to have a written  step-by-step guide to this and all of my other   builds i hope that you would consider joining the  channel as a member there's a little button down   there in the corner somewhere for you to click  on for two dollars a month you get access to   like my library of write-ups which i create for  each episode so you could have a step-by-step   guide to recreate the character yourself if  you would like to more importantly i think um   and for a lot of my members frankly it's  just a great way to support the channel   and uh help me create more and better content so  thank you for considering doing so and regardless   thanks for being here thanks for watching  thanks for liking and subscribing all those   things are also great ways to support the channel  so thank you you guys want to hear a funny story   okay good so when i started creating the  character build for this week i initially   started out doing a fighter rogue multi-class  build it's one that i had had on my to-do list   for quite some time i've been looking forward  to doing it for a while i got to a place in the   script where the core of the build felt pretty  complete and so i was considering adding some   paladin level specifically oath of vengeance  paladin to shore up a couple of things that i   felt that the build was missing that could have  made it more powerful the problem that i ran   into was once i started i couldn't stop  taking oath of vengeance paladin levels   there was always some strong feature that was just  a couple levels away every time i thought about   stopping and maybe going back to rogue or whatever  so i would take a couple more and then i would   take a couple more and then pretty soon i no  longer had a rogue fighter build i had an oath of   vengeance paladin build with a little bit of rogue  and fighter multi-class dip and after a bunch of   number crunching and reworking i just realized  that the character would be better off if i just   started off as a paladin with oath of vengeance  so at like midnight two nights ago i shelved the   rogue fighter character and have been working ever  since to put this character build together that is   basically an oath of mentions paladin it's just  it's the subclass that keeps on giving or perhaps   more accurately i think between the really strong  subclass features and the already amazing paladin   chassis features it is maybe the toughest subclass  to multi-class out of in dnd with with maybe one   or two exceptions because there's just there's  always something really nice on the horizon with   an oath of vengeance paladin and to be honest i  think that's kind of the exception to the rule   in fifth edition i mean obviously or else i  wouldn't multi-class my build so much right   i mean don't get me wrong there are often great  reasons to stick with a particular subclass for   the duration of that character's career but more  often than not i think classes and subclasses   in dnd 5e tend to be pretty front loaded in their  power or at least maybe the really strong ones do   the strongest ones and i think classes and  subclasses that have good attractive strong   features from levels 1 all the way through level  20 are fairly few and far between in 5e that said   this is not necessarily a criticism i actually  like that so many subclasses get strong attractive   features early because it creates interesting  compelling reasons i think to look at like other   classes as options for your character weigh them  against the benefits of staying with your current   class and that then opens the door wide open  for a lot of fun unique combos that as most of   my longtime viewers know by now i really love  trying to put together that that solving aspect   almost of character creation is one of my favorite  things but i i will admit i do kind of hope that   when wizards of the coast comes out with their  next iteration of dnd you know 5.5 or whatever it   is that they've recently announced that's coming  out in 2024 um and we talked about that news and a   sliding into my dms episode there i hope that when  they do that they they create more subclasses or   maybe refine more subclasses to be more like  the oath of vengeance paladin it's not that   it's the perfect subclass necessarily or the most  powerful subclass in 5e i think it's it's up there   i don't know that i would say it's like the best  or the strongest i don't know that that exists but   regardless it is a great example of how to have  a character that has good compelling features   throughout the character's lifespan and  not just great stuff at the beginning   but largely like forgettable stuff later  or worse mediocre stuff at the beginning   even if there's still like some really compelling  great things later on especially because   so few of us actually play the game at  later levels in the first place right so   what's the point of having an amazing  feature at character level 17 when   the stuff before that is just kind of okay or not  very good all this is not to say of course that   even the vengeance paladin couldn't potentially  benefit from a little multi-classing depending   on how you wanted to build them and what you were  going for with your build i am going to do some   in the episode today but it will be less than  i think most of my builds i just think that   multi-classing out of oath of vengeance is a  tougher decision and i actually really like that   i like those difficult decisions where it's like  oh i both options are good which is better let's   try and figure it out that's what i want more of  in d d and so yes today we are creating an oath of   vengeance paladin which is a character of course  i think like most paladins i suppose that really   lends itself well to a burst damage focus or a  nova damage focus and so that will be the focus of   the character today creating a character who can  with the assistance of their limited expendable   powerful resources pump out some really big damage  if a limited number of times per rest as opposed   to sustained damage builds right that are that  are low resource intensive so as to eliminate   one or more enemies early on in a fight to tip  the odds of that fight in your party's favor and   boy can vengeance pallies do that and so without  any further ado i proudly present episode   63 the oath of vengeance paladin let's jump in all  right at level one for our class we're actually   starting paladin this week can you believe it  i'm uh i'm not giving you any bait and switch   the paladin chassis just has so much going  for it that i don't want to delay all of   the great goodies that we can get especially  in the first few levels now as for our race   i am going to recommend that we go variant human  with this build we really really want two feats   and if one of those feats were a half feet meaning  right that you get a plus one to an important   ability score and some additional benefits from a  feed then we'd probably go custom lineage to get a   plus two to that really important stat and then a  plus one so that we could start with an 18 in our   most important stat i do this very often as  some of you like to criticize me for with this   character neither of the feats that i want are  half feats and paladins are notoriously multiple   ability score dependent matt we really want two  actually three uh ability scores high as possible   so anyway want to start with variant human as it  lets us start with a 16 in our two most important   abilities and that's really nice for us and later  actually your entire party as for the free feat   that we would be taking here at level one i  will recommend going polar master it's been a   minute actually since i've done a polar master  build uh 10 episodes in fact the fey wanderer   although they were actually using a quarter  staff not an actual like glaive or halberd that   we would think of as a typical pole arm but anyway  polar master is a fantastic feat it's very strong   it lets you take an opportunity attack when  an enemy enters your reach not just leaves   your reach right and remember your reach with  a pole arm assuming that you're using a halberd   or a glaive or a pike is 10 feet as opposed  to the usual five so that already is nice   most important for us when we make an attack with  a pole arm we get to make an attack with the blunt   end of the weapon or the butt of the weapon as i  like to call it as a bonus action and that attack   does a d4 of damage as opposed to like the d10  again i'm assuming that you're using a halberd or   a glaive right so it's a d10 and then a d4 bonus  action with the butt of the weapon in case you   didn't know the reason why that's nice in addition  to the fact that it's a weaponized bonus action   is that because you're using the same weapon  as you're using for your attack action attack   you can still add your ability score modifier to  the attack unlike when you are dual wielding light   weapons for example unless you take the two weapon  fighting style anyway there is an alternative to   creating the vengeance paladin build that does not  use a pole arm it's fairly popular among vengeance   paladin lovers uh it uses a double bladed scimitar  i think it's a great option in certain situations   and with some caveats so if you're interested  in hearing about that alternate path stay tuned   in the final thoughts of the build at the end  i will go over briefly what that looks like and   how it differs as for our equipment it's pretty  standard stuff um you know make sure you have   some chain mail grab a halberd or a glaive for  your martial weapon i prefer the glaive but it's   basically do you want a sword on a stick or an axe  on a stick and everything else that a paladin may   need as for our ability scores i always assume  that we're using the point by method and so with   that assumption i recommend that we go with a  15 strength and take one of our plus ones there   to get us 16. a 15 charisma with another plus one  there so we've got a 16 in strength and charisma   and then a 14 constitution after that at level 1  paladins get the divine sensibility which lets you   as an action basically try to detect fiends  celestials or undead within 60 feet of you   that are not behind total cover you can do  this one plus your charisma modifier times   per day so that's four times a day for us  and it's it's an okay little utility feature   um that will come in handy once in a while we  also of course get the lay on hands feature as   a paladin at level one which basically gives us  five points per pallet and level that go into our   pool of lay on hands points and then as an  action we can use as many of those points   as we want that are available to us to heal  ourselves or an ally with a touch one hit point   of healing per point in our lay on hands pool that  we have we can also spend five points to cure a   disease or a poison and that's level one at level  two paladins get a fighting style and while i'm   tempted to take the great weapon fighting style  because we are after all optimizing for damage   with this build the reality is the great weapon  fighting style is just not very good it lets you   reroll ones and twos when you do damage with a  weapon that you're using two hands to attack with   and statistically speaking numerically speaking  it's just very small i'm going to make a rare   suggestion for me that with as weak as it is and  because we don't have a shield and we don't have   constitution saving throw proficiency because we  started paladin not getting hit on this character   is even a little more important than it otherwise  would be so i want to take the defense fighting   style here which simply bumps our armor class  by one if we're wearing armor i think it's just   the better choice for this character personally  and then of course we get paladin spells at level   two here paladins generally have a fairly small  spell list compared to other casters but there   are some really potent ones there are some fun  smite spells for extra damage and conditions   some good defensive and support type options i'd  be sure to grab cure wounds for a heal in a pinch   when you're out of lay on hands points anyway  but the one that i would really ensure that you   get and that i'd focus on here is the bless spell  it's one of the best buff spells in the game and   it just it stays strong from level 1 to level 20.  to cast a spell you use your action it requires   your concentration and thereafter for one minute  you and up to two others that you cast it on   i'm going to assume you're using it on yourself  you get to add a d4 to all of your attack roles   and to your saving throws now we do get a bonus  to our saving throws including our constitution   saving throw that will be helpful so that we  don't drop concentration on bless plus is such   a self-serving spell so selfish and then of course  at level two paladins get the divine smite feature   you know it you love it so when you hit an enemy  with the melee attack you can spend a spell slot   to add 2d8 radian damage to that attack it scales  an extra 1d8 per additional spell level that you   use all the way up to 4th level spells where it  caps at a 5d8 and of course it does an additional   1d8 of damage to undead and fiends we of course  will be making lots of use of this at level 3 we   get the divine health feature which tells us that  we are now immune to disease so that's nice when   you get diseased i don't know about you guys i i  can probably count on one hand all the times that   my character has been subjected to a disease in a  game of d d but maybe my dms are just very health   conscious people and then of course we get our  sacred oath our subclass and we are as i've said   going with the oath of vengeance here's what we  read about the oath of vengeance paladin the oath   of vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish  those who have committed a grievous sin when   evil forces slaughter helpless villagers when an  entire people turns against the will of the gods   when a thieves guild grows too violent and  powerful when a dragon rampages through the   countryside at times like these paladins arise  and swear an oath of vengeance to set right that   which has gone wrong to these paladins sometimes  called avengers or dark knights their own purity   is not as important as delivering justice so if  you've ever wanted to play an avenger in d here's   your chance so of course this goes without saying  but naturally you're going to want to work this   into your backstory i think somehow this moment  this trigger that caused you to swear this oath   i want to know what happened to you as a character  that led you down this path or even maybe ideally   i would hope that if you're playing this character  with this oath it would like get worked into the   actual gameplay at some point maybe right  before you hit level three where something   cool and tragic happens in the game causing you  to take up this oath i'd love to know if any of   you have great stories on an oath of vengeance  paladin that you've played what caused you to   swear that oath and what vengeance was it that you  were seeking regardless definitely discuss this   with your dungeon master and of course you know  give them an opportunity to create like an awesome   story moment for you and for your friends at the  table by giving your character motivation to seek   vengeance so regardless of the oath that  paladins take when they take their oath they get   a number of oath spells they're always prepared  and the oath spells for the oath of vengeance   paladin are in my opinion anyway the best among  all paladin subclasses at this level at level 3   you get bane and hunter's mark those are good  i would say not great necessarily i i wouldn't   use either i don't think for my concentration  uh over bless personally although both have   their uses later on i think i will take an oath  spell as my concentration but not yet and also   like all paladins we get channel divinity here at  level three which we can use once per short rest   each oath gets two options for their channel  divinity the first for the vengeance paladin   is abjure enemy which lets us as an action  force a wisdom save on an enemy within 60 feet   or they are frightened of us that frightened  condition lasts for one minute which means   that they have disadvantage on attack rolls  and ability checks while they can see us   and they cannot willingly move closer to us  either not only that but their speed is zero   anyway so they also couldn't move away from us and  the really nice thing about abjure enemy is that   they do not get to make saving throws on  subsequent turns if they fail that initial one so   it's really a very strong fear but an even better  use of our channel divinity for our purposes i   think anyway is the second option for channel  divinity that oath of vengeance paladins get   which is vow of enmity the way this works is you  use it as a bonus action on one creature within 10   feet and thereafter all of our attack roles have  advantage against that creature for one minute or   until they die or go unconscious there are  of course a lot of ways to gain advantage in   dungeons and dragons but this one is particularly  good i think due to the fact that the enemy   doesn't get to make a save and there are no other  conditions that need to be met as a prerequisite   you just use your bonus action and now you  have advantage on this enemy it is only one   enemy per short rest essentially that is a bummer  but it makes for a very strong nova round for us   at level four we get our first ability score  increase or feat and of course yes we're gonna go   with the great weapon master feat here this feat  tells us that attacks we make with heavy weapons   and yes glaives and halberds are heavy get a plus  10 bonus to their damage at a penalty of -5 to hit   this just adds so much damage for our character  it's very hard to pass up and even though that   -5 to hit really hurts it is somewhat mitigated by  our blessed spell and by the advantage that we get   at least during our nova round allowing us to keep  the great weapon master feature like turned on at   a higher enemy armor class than would otherwise  be advisable don't forget to the other feature   that comes with the great weapon master feat  if you score a critical hit with a melee weapon   or reduce an enemy to zero hit points with one  then you can make another attack as a bonus action   now thanks to polar master we are already doing  that but again it's with the butt and so it's only   a d4 as opposed to a d10 that you would be granted  on a critical hit or reducing an enemy to zero so   keep that in mind at level five we get extra  attack which means we can make two attacks when   we take the attack action and two is more  than one so that's good and then we do get   second level paladin spells as well first up that  means you can smite for more damage now if you   were to expend a second level spell slot you'd get  3d8 of damage by doing so and you can upcast bless   to cover one additional party member with the  blessed spell so that could be advisable depending   on your party there are lots of great second level  paladin spells aid for extra hit points for you   and or your allies find steed of course for a  free and very powerful mount but my favorite   choices here actually are our oath spells we get  hold person and misty step they are both fantastic   neither that are available to paladins typically  misty step of course provides great movement and   teleportation as a bonus action and whole person  is potentially devastating to humanoids as we   explored at great length in the kritlander episode  if you have not seen that withhold person if your   enemy fails their wisdom save against you they are  paralyzed meaning attacks against them that are   made from within five feet are automatic critical  hits among other things and yes if you smite when   you crit then the smite damage is doubled too so  needless to say if you're fighting a humanoid and   especially if you think there's a decent chance  that they're going to fail their wisdom saving   throw this could be potentially devastating  just keep in mind that we're not really   building around this spell in this case right so  we're not going to be bumping our charisma for the   foreseeable future so our spell save dc is never  going to be fantastic and it does take an action   to cast this as well meaning that we can't cast  this and make attacks in the same turn without   grabbing either like quicken spell from sorcerers  or action surge from fighters so great potential   here i'm not going to assume that we're using  this however when we crunch the numbers and then   at level six we get r of protection and i know i  usually do stupid things in the name of pumping   our damage and rf protection doesn't technically  do that anyone else noticing a theme here the   thing is admittedly i feel like i have the luxury  of doing these kind of things with this build   because just wait until you see how much damage  we're doing anyway i just i couldn't live with   myself if i delayed taking rf protection it's  hands down one of the best features of any class   in the entire game and again especially as we  don't have constitution saving throw proficiency   and therefore a bonus to our concentration checks  you just you really need to take this even though   there is some multi-classing that i would like to  get to the way rf protection works of course is   you get to add your charisma modifier to all of  your saving throws and so do all of your allies   that are within 10 feet of you this makes me  extra happy that we managed to start off with   a 16 charisma because now we have a plus three to  every single saving throw and that's just so good   and this plus bless makes us and all of our  friends who stay close to us just god-like on   our saving throws so at level six it is time for  our first damage report and you know it's pretty   straightforward on round one or before combat  begins if possible you cast bless on yourself   and two or three if you upcast it uh of your best  friends and then as a bonus action you would use   vow of enmity on the poor sap who has made the  massive mistake of pissing you off on round two   you walk up to them and thus blow them you get two  attacks with a sharp end one with your butt action   and you turn on great weapon master for the extra  10 damage on every hit including on the butt   action attack just because it's a butt doesn't  mean it doesn't also qualify as a heavy weapon   it's super thick you add your three damage from  your strength modifier on every hit as well of   course and then you smite right now you have  two second level spells that do 3d8 damage each   and then four first level spells that would  smite for two d8 each of course you're using   one of those for bless right assuming that all  of your attacks land and with both advantage and   bless active you've got a pretty decent chance  of that happening even with a minus five to hit   that is a total of 2d10 plus 88 plus 1d4 plus  39. and so against an enemy with a 10 armor   class you would do on that one round 88 damage  on average and against an enemy with a 15 armor   class you would do 67 damage on average now with  our low strength score even though we have bless   we actually would want to turn off the great  weapon master at a 17 armor class or higher and   so yes the damage does fall off rather quickly as  the enemy armor class rises but dang if you are   landing all of those hits stuff is just blowing up  it's among the more potent of the nova builds that   i've done to date again for those who don't know  check in the video description i put a graph and a   spreadsheet that kind of compares the different  nova builds to to one another and with vengeance   paladin it just continues to get better throughout  your career now the one big downside here of   course and this is also a problem that really  persists throughout this character's career is   that while you can do a ton of damage in a single  round if you wanted to if you were to go all out   like this you would be burning up almost all  of your spell slots in a single round of combat   which means that you could really only do  this level of damage once per day so i'm   not necessarily recommending that you do this  in combat right as always we're just exploring   what's possible exercise as much discretion as you  want and so at level seven with aura of protection   in the bag as well as extra attack and second  level spell slots i think we could afford   ourselves a very small detour here i want some  fighter levels because taking them is going to   start to launch our nova damage like into the  stratosphere so you might want to think about   why your i will have justice character is now  pausing in their development to focus a little   more heavily on their marshall capabilities it's  not too far a stretch of course thematically as   paladins are already sort of a mix between  fighters and clerics right but i would think   about it regardless especially when we get to our  subclass so at level seven we are a fighter 1 and   we get the second wind ability which tells us that  once per short rest as a bonus action we can heal   ourselves for 1d10 plus our fighter levels which  is a nice little survivability benefit and then   we also get a fighting style we could pick  up great weapon master fighting style here   if we really wanted to but i'm actually going  to recommend again skipping great weapon master   and going this time with superior technique i  love this fighting style as it lets us learn   one battle master maneuver from the battle master  subclass and then gives us one superiority die   to spend on that maneuver once per short rest  this superiority die is only a d6 as opposed   to the d8 that battle masters typically get  and yeah it is only once per short rest but   those maneuvers can be really powerful the one  that i would recommend taking is the one that i   usually recommend taking when we're talking battle  masters and maneuvers and that's trip attack it's   it's my favorite because it lets us when we hit  with a weapon attack if the creature is larger or   smaller force them to make a strength saving throw  and rdc is based on our dexterity or strength   our choice or they are knocked prone now i'm not  actually going to assume that we are using this   on our nova round prone is fantastic obviously  because as a melee character if we're making   attacks against a prone creature then we have  advantage as a vengeance paladin on our nova   round we already have advantage and even though  when we successfully make the trip attack we get   to add that d6 of damage so yes potentially we  could add a little more damage to our nova round   i would assume that you would save that maneuver  that superiority die for a round of combat where   you've already used your vow of enmity having  a guaranteed advantage on your attacks twice   per short rest instead of once is great and and  lets us kind of do some really nice burst damage   a couple of times per rest as opposed to just  blowing everything on one glorious round per day   right so just gives us some options at level 8 we  are a fighter 2 and of course you know it you love   it we get action surge once per short rest you can  action surge on your turn granting you a second   full action for that turn you don't get an extra  bonus action but you do get an extra full action   and so yes if you take the attack action and you  normally get two attacks when you take the attack   action because you have extra attack like we do  then yes when you action surge you can take two   more attacks and there's no reason why you  couldn't smite on every single one so long   as you had the spell slots to do it at level 9 we  are a fighter 3 and we get our martial archetype   our fighter subclass at this point in our  character's career something weird is happening if you're playing with the wild amount book the  critical role book or in that setting you might   need to figure out at this point what connection  if any your character may have with the krin   dynasty if you're not in that setting i think  i would flavor what's going on here as maybe   something like this the ghosts of the victims  that you are seeking to avenge have deemed you a   worthy champion and so have decided to join you  in your cause as you seek justice and now they   manifest themselves occasionally in your fight to  lend you aid or alternatively and maybe a little   more darkly perhaps your character has been so  hell-bent on vengeance that it's actually like   harming your own psyche or your soul causing  like strain and maybe even a rift perhaps   there's a part of you that knows that in order  to truly heal from whatever that catastrophe was   you have to learn to forgive and move on but  the other part of you resists that notion and   is devoted to the cause of vengeance and this  rift or division this internal struggle is   actually starting to like manifest itself in the  physical realm as a shadow or an echo of yourself   because yes regardless of your reasons we are  taking echo knight as our martial archetype here   i'm not going to read the little blurb because i  did that somewhat recently but echo knights are   really strong they get a couple of really  fantastic features here right at level three   manifest echo which tells us that as a bonus  action you can manifest an echo of yourself   within 15 feet it has an armor class of 14 plus  your proficiency bonus which is 18 for now and   by the way assuming that we have plate mail armor  at this point our armor class is a 19 thanks to   our defense fighting style not amazing but not  bad this echo is immune to all conditions it   uses your saving throw bonus for any saves that  it has to make and that's really good thanks to   our of protection right and bless you can mentally  command it to move up to 30 feet on your turn no   resource required by you to do that but if it gets  more than 30 feet away from you it's destroyed   and of course if it takes one hit point in damage  it's destroyed but there is no limit to the number   of times that you can re-summon it it just takes  a bonus action to do so you can use your echo in   many wonderful ways bob tell us what they are well  first of all as a bonus action you can swap places   with your echo which costs 15 feet of your move  speed oh that's nice what else when you attack   you can choose if it comes from you or your echo  on each attack that's nice too what else when   an enemy moves away from it the echo can make an  opportunity attack using your reaction as though   you were in the echo space ooh that's nice too  what else well most importantly we get unleash   incarnation which tells us that constitution  modifier times per day that's a bummer yes   but whenever you take the attack action you can  make one extra attack from the echoes position   why so yes this is really strong especially for  those of us who are taking the attack action   multiple times because yes we can potentially  take the attack action make our two attacks   use unleash incarnation to get three and then  action surge make two more attacks and because   we took the attack action get an extra attack with  unleash incarnation from our echoes position now   again this is usable constitution modifier times  per day so that's only two for us right now but at   least during our nova round we could potentially  gain two more attacks now thanks to this ability   and so for our damage report here we have kind  of started to enter ludicrous mode so our round   one setup is the same we bless and then use valve  enmity but now on round two we could potentially   walk up to our poor sap of an enemy position our  echo so that it's within reach as well and then   hit them with three attacks from the pointy end  thanks to unleash incarnation an extra attack   adding smite and a d10 from great weapon master  on every hit plus our strength modifier and then   action surge and hit them for three more attacks  with add-ons and then give them some butt action   for a little extra love as well that's seven  attacks in a single turn all with insane damage   applications should we choose to use them at level  nine we don't even have the spell slots to cover   each one of those attacks if they all land now  the likelihood of them all landing is very slim   so we probably will have a smite available  for every hit that we make and so just for fun   let's pretend that we are blowing a smite on  every single attack that we land in this one round   again i'm not suggesting that you do this  necessarily just exploring what's possible   we're using one spell for bless and then the  other five for smite potentially so against an   enemy with a 10 armor class we would potentially  do 188 damage on average and against an enemy with   a 16 armor class it's 144 what that out does  every nova damage build that i've done to date   except the evoker wizard who was doing their total  damage in an area to three enemies a vocal wizard   there and the kritlander who was only doing that  level of damage against humanoids right because   they were casting whole person now again this  is only doable once per long rest that level of   damage right so the reality is you are rarely i  think going to be blowing all of your spell slots   to achieve that level of damage right right come  on dude be reasonable do it do it reasonable sucks   all right so from this point there are so many  things that i want with this character i mean what   is a person hell-bent on exacting vengeance to do  getting our strength score up as soon as possible   is incredibly important for us we're still  languishing at a 16 right getting more spell slots   so that we can smite more is really important and  higher spell slots too right so that we can both   smite more often and for more damage the quickest  way to do that and the thing that i usually do   when i'm building a paladin focused on smiting  is to take some barred or sorcery levels at this   point as they are the charisma-based full casters  who gain spell slots so much quicker than paladins   and yet as i said at the beginning that there are  so many ways that we can benefit by just sticking   with paladin and oath of vengeance it's just  the character path that keeps on giving and so   i think for that reason it actually makes the  most sense to just go back to paladin here and   stay with it for the rest of our career i know  i'm shocked too of course if you wanted to go   with say like a whispers bard i think or a sword  bard for a little more burst and you know those   better quicker spell slots or maybe like a  divine soul sorcerer here for metamagic and   spell slots i think it would be a totally valid  choice staying with paladin is i think the best   way to sort of have our cake and eat it too we  are gonna get more and higher level spell slots   albeit more slowly but then also get our strength  up a lot quicker this way and of course the other   paladin features that we pick up that the bard  and sorcerer just don't get but before we do that   let's take one last level in fighter so that we  can pick up that ability score increase because   it's just right there and we really want to get  our strength up as soon as possible right so yes   at level 10 i'm going to say we go fighter 4 that  we bump our strength so that we're at least at an   18 strength now you know with that minus five to  hit penalty from great weapon master especially   getting every single bonus two hit that we can  goes a long way and i don't want to delay this   any further but at level 11 we are going back to  paladin so we're gonna be a paladin level seven   and we get the relentless avenger feature from  vengeance pallies and and this is actually the   first and i think last arguably time that as a  vengeance paladin we get a feat that isn't that   great it tells us that when we hit a creature with  an opportunity attack and remember we can do this   when a creature first enters our space as well  as leaves it right thanks to polar master you can   move up to half of your speed as part of  that reaction and that movement doesn't   provoke opportunity attacks i mean there will be  times where this will be kind of handy and or fun   maybe you can kind of kite an enemy with this or  or move over to help out an ally or something but   most of the time i just don't see us getting  a ton of use out of this personally and then   at level 12 we would be a paladin level 8 and  we get an ability score increase or feat and   i'm going to recommend that we bump our  constitution here wait what didn't you   just tell us how important it was to get  our strength score up i did and it is but   very soon having a plus three constitution  modifier is going to be even more important as we   will see so just hang tight and of course getting  more hit points and a bump to our constitution   saving throw and concentration checks is not bad  either but at level 13 we would be paladin level 9   and we get third level paladin spells so in  addition to being able to smite for 48 now   potentially with those third level spell slots we  get as a vengeance paladin both protection from   energy as an oath spell that's situationally  useful defensively but more importantly for us   haste this is a spell that is not accessible to  most paladins and it was one of the reasons why i   wanted to go back to paladin we could have gotten  to haste with say a sorcerer dip or even a lore   bard but it would have taken a few more levels to  get there and i want this spell sooner rather than   later haste is amazing and when you have lots of  ways to add damage to your attacks like we do it's   even more amazing so with haste you cast it as an  action it uses your concentration more on that in   a sec but thereafter for one minute you have a  plus two to your armor glass which is awesome   your move speed is doubled and actually there's  potentially some fun interaction now here i think   with our new relentless avenger ability because  we can move so much further it would really let   us when we take an opportunity attack really get  a lot of movement as part of that reaction that's   cool we have advantage on dexterity saving throws  which is nice since it's a pretty common save that   we would need and our dexterity is not very good  although our deck saves aren't terrible thanks   to rf protection most importantly it gives us an  additional action that can only be used to dash   disengage hide use an object or take the attack  action although if we take the attack action   with haste we only get one more attack not two  even though we have extra attack right that said   we are still taking the attack action a third yes  third if we're using action surge attack action   on our turn and remember what that means for us  as an echo knight right when we take the attack   action we can make an additional melee attack  from our echoes position so as an echo knight   here with the haste spell even though we only are  supposed to get one extra attack when we take the   attack action from haste we would actually get two  extra attacks thanks to our echo night if we had   a use of our unleash incarnation still available  to us and remember we only get to do that a number   of times per day equal to our constitution  modifier and so yeah that's the reason why   i wanted to bump constitution last level so  that we could have three uses per day and so   now casting haste on ourselves can potentially  grant us two more attacks during our nova round   and when you crunch the numbers that's better than  taking a plus one to strength would have been last   level some of you might be asking if we shouldn't  be using spirit shroud here for our concentration   instead as that would add a d8 to all of our  attacks and it is available to all paladins   it's not a bad option if we weren't an echo knight  the math between haste and spirit shroud is almost   identical but with that extra attack that an echo  knight would potentially get from haste it takes a   fairly solid lead wise over spirit shroud not to  mention of course the increase to move speed the   increase to your armor class that haste gives us  of course there's a big downside to haste that i'm   not mentioning that is when the spell ends  you have to spend a turn doing nothing   and that could happen if you just lose  concentration on the spell and that could   potentially be devastating another strike though  against spirit shroud in this comparison here   actually is that it costs a bonus action to cast  which you would think would be a good thing right   but since our vow of enmity is also a bonus action  it means that we wouldn't be going full speed on   our nova until we had two rounds of prep because  you can only ever use one bonus action per turn   and and that stinks that's actually that's a  that's a that's one thing that i really don't   like about fifth edition that you can't use a  bonus action as an action should you choose to   but anyway that's an argument for another time  as for bless it absolutely still has its place no   question at a higher enemy armor class like about  20 ac or up you're actually still probably better   off with blas because that plus d4 to hit on every  single swing ends up being more valuable when the   enemy gets harder to hit and you're hitting for  so much not to mention of course that it's only a   first level spell potentially allowing you to save  that third level spell slot for a bigger smite   or something else of course and that it bumps  all of your saving throws which is big and most   importantly it gives those same benefits  to your allies i'm sure that depending on   your allies bless probably is gonna put out more  overall damage for your entire party than taking   haste selfishly would here but i don't know  what your party looks like i don't know if your   teammates are doing lots of damage and i'm trying  as i usually do to make this build sort of like as   self-sufficient as possible so yes when i crunch  the numbers from here on out i'm going to assume   that we've got haste going here as for the other  third level spells that you might want to consider   knock yourself out i mean there are some great  ones i would i would probably make sure to   at least get revivify which is like the first  resurrection type spell that you have access to   just in case one of your friends dies and no  one else can bring them back and i guess they're   not a total jerk and you actually want to bring  them back and so for a damage report at level 13   we have again had some really nice bumps um this  this build just does not plateau our strength   modifiers increased by one we get an eighth and  ninth attack now on our nova round from haste plus   unleash incarnation and we've gained some  additional and better spell slots up to a   third level spell slot of course although we're  using one of them for the haste spell right so   if on the crazy off chance that we actually wanted  to burn haste round one and use valve enmity as a   bonus action and then all of our other spell slots  for smiting against an enemy with a 10 armor class   we would do 287 damage on average and against  an enemy with a 17 armor class it would still   be over 200 it's 201 on average now assuming that  you are not using a magic weapon that gives you a   bonus to hit and like that you don't have an ally  that's maybe using a blessed spell of their own   on you or some other buff to add to your plus to  hit you would turn off the great weapon master   feature at an 18 enemy armor class but i'm sure  that most of us by this level would have some   additional increases to our hit chance at least  from like a plus one weapon or something right   and i'm not calculating any of that in here so any  additional plus to hit would of course push that   turn off great weapon master at this armor  class number a little bit higher and by the   way when you look at the spreadsheet  for those who don't know you can see   that number i always highlighted in yellow the our  enemy armor class at which point you should turn   off great weapon master or sharpshooter if i use  sharpshooter in the build anyway yes we are still   among the top nova damage dealers of any build  that i've created and with a lot fewer caveats to   achieving that level of damage all right at level  14 we are a paladin 10 and we get aura of courage   which tells us that you and your allies within 10  feet of you cannot be frightened and this will be   amazing when you need it and worthless otherwise  but you know having immunity to a somewhat   common and fairly painful condition is pretty  fantastic at level 15 we would be a paladin 11   and we get improved divine smite and again between  like the vengeance subclass and just the paladin   base chassis this path just keeps on giving i  mean after we hit paladin 9 which i wanted for   haste even though i would have loved to go like  barger sorcerer for more and better spell slots i   couldn't imagine not just taking two more paladin  levels here to get improved divine smite as it   gives all of our melee weapon attacks an extra 1d8  of radiant damage on top of whatever else we're   doing this is like a free spirit shroud spell  that's just always on all the time i mean this   would be strong on any paladin for someone who's  potentially making nine attacks in a single turn   it's insanely strong and it's also nice to have  this bump for our non-nova rounds right it really   helps out our sustained damage per round as well  of course now at level 16 we would be a paladin 12   and we do get another ability score increase  or feat admittedly part of me would love to   bump charisma here to just give us a stronger rf  protection among other things you know a better   paladin spellsave dc but we just have to have  a 20 strength in fact this might be the longest   that i've ever delayed getting a character's main  stat 220 before for a character that's focused on   damage it feels bad but at every step of the way  the numbers just indicated that we're better off   delaying it for something else so here we are and  then finally for us anyway at level 17 we would be   a paladin level 13. finally getting fourth level  paladin spells feels really nice so that we can   at least smite for 5d8 once per day if we want to  but there are fantastic spell options otherwise   that you might rather spend that spell slot on  right the oath spells again are both particularly   strong banishment is a super strong control  spell again just keep in mind that our spell   dc is not amazing with a 16 charisma but then we  also get to mention door as an oath spell which   is like the ultimate in combat teleportation for  both you and your friend aside from those i would   say like i mean you got to get frank greater steed  right because i mean griffins but other than that   pick your favorites and so for our final damage  report we've added a bit from some higher level   spell slots as well as of course an additional 1d8  of damage for divine smite on every single hit and   finally we have capped our strength score thus  against an enemy with a 10 armor class we would   be doing on average 394 damage and against an  enemy with an 18 armor class we would be doing 288   damage in a single round gee who's a fat trigger  we were this close to breaking the 400 mark   we're so very much in the like top echelon when  compared to other nova builds but again without   all of the this only works if caveats that that  some of them have while simultaneously having   a lot more like defensive utility and support  uh features than the other nova damage builds   that do this much damage have  and so final thoughts i mean   the reality is this level of damage a lot of the  times is just going to be overkill right how often   are you going to need to do 300 plus almost 400  damage against a single enemy in a single turn   sometimes sure but not that often of course  you could always take out one enemy and then   move over to take out a second or even third in  that single glorious nova round but i'm actually   okay with the overkill because like i've been  saying burning through all of your spell slots   in one glorious round of burst damage is probably  something that you're not actually going to want   to do all that often so feel free to scale it back  a bit but still totally wreck things in relative   moderation i really love how deep we went into the  paladin class with this build i i almost never get   this far with my paladins maybe not since like my  paladin tank build how many cards do i have left   or i guess my maybe my necromancer oathbreaker  which was like two characters right but one of   them was the oathbreaker paladin that i just i  don't think i multi-classed them at all regardless   there is a ton of additional utility and defensive  capabilities that you get at later paladin levels   that makes this character feel super valuable  for reasons more than just offensively i mean   your lay on hands is really potent immunity  to fear for you and your friends fantastic but   what's so fantastic especially about the oath of  vengeance paladin is that you get to have those   great utility and defensive buffs and also pour  out some absolutely insane damage on demand and   that is my favorite thing about this character i  think it's again it's it's just the ultimate in   having your cake and eating it too now i did  mention at the beginning that i was going to   briefly talk about an alternative path for this  build that was focused on using the double-bladed   scimitar instead of a pole arm right so let  me go over that just quickly basically you   go with a dexterity focus instead of strength  and you start as either an elf or a half elf   you probably eventually are going to want to take  the revenant blade feet so that the double-bladed   cemetery can count as a finesse weapon and also  the elven accuracy feat so that you can have   that triple advantage that you get from elven  accuracy right and you can't benefit from elven   accuracy if you're making strength based attacks  so getting your double bladed scimitar to be a   finesse weapon is important using the double  bladed scimitar is nice because it lets you   add the damage bonus from your dexterity modifier  to the bonus action attack that you get to make   with your double bladed scimitar without having to  take the two up in fighting style with this build   you don't start with a free feed so at level four  you would take out an accuracy i think and then   at level eight you would take revenant blade the  big problem with this is that generally speaking   you're much weaker until you can get both of those  feats which wouldn't happen until level 8 at the   earliest meaning you also delay your fighter  levels because you want to go all the way to   paladin 8 i think before you start multi-classing  and so then your extra attacks your action surges   your echo night features you wouldn't have until  like character level 11. and frankly by that point   a lot of campaigns are going to be over right or  at least will be shortly now you don't have to go   double bladed scimitar you could do short swords  and be almost as good as you will be once you get   that double bladed scimitar but still that's kind  of the the pinnacle of the build i suppose you   know i just i don't love delaying my character's  power until like character level eight that just   feels really bad to me not that you wouldn't still  be strong and so it is a viable path no question   you also of course the double-bladed seminar is  not a heavy weapon meaning you would not be able   to take advantage of great weapon master and and  the additional damage that that's going to bring   but that actually is compensated for by the  increased critical rate that you would get   with oven accuracy and being able to roll 3d  20s essentially when you have advantage and so   we don't mind missing out on great weapon master  that much i think you know if i were playing at   a table where i got to start with a free feat or  i were playing a character that started at level   8 or higher i would probably go this route with  my vengeance pali and then you know once you hit   those higher character levels you do see  even more damage than what i presented   so for what it's worth at level 17 the damage  from this build would be slightly better at a   low enemy armor class you would break the 400  mark with 402 at an enemy armor class of 10   and much much better at a high enemy armor  class it would be 341 at an enemy ac of 18. so   anyway for what it's worth that's the dexterity  based vengeance paladin build but regardless   thanks for watching i love you guys so much  i really appreciate your support i hope you   enjoyed this episode i hope that you'll  check out the other content on the channel   and like and subscribe and join in all those  things if you haven't already done so so anyway   have a fantastic day i hope to see you  again very soon and until then take care   blah blah blah so we can the  blessed spell is fantastic which means that they have disadvantage  on attack roles and saving throws   or or at least would or at  least on in one particular

Channel: d4: D&D Deep Dive

Views: 134,694

Keywords: D&D Optimized, dnd, dungeons & dragons, oath of vengeance, paladin, echo knight, fighter, 5e, how to, guide, burst damage, nova damage, divine smite, polearm, great weapon

Id: 2hxVUt6CZks

Length: 56min 23sec (3383 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 19 2021