The Necromancer & The Oathbreaker - D&D: Optimized #36

hello all you wonderful lovely people how's it  going welcome to d d optimized the show where   each week we take a deep dive into one sometimes  two as in the case this week uh character builds   for dungeons and dragons 5e we theorycraft about  them we crunch numbers and we do our best to   make them as powerful as possible for the role  that we've chosen those for those characters   to play in game welcome if you enjoy character  creation in dungeons and dragons almost as much   as playing the actual game itself then welcome  home this is where you belong and we are super   happy to have you my name's colby and i'm your  host and uh yeah thanks for being here you know   if you guys like uh the video and the content  i hope you will consider liking and subscribing   if you're not subscribed and even joining um  to support the channel it really helps us out   to you know be able to bring more content  and improve the quality as we go so anyway   thanks for your consideration today we are  going to do another one of my team-up builds   where we're taking two characters and kind of  trying to optimize them together in a way that   finds a lot of synergy between them and makes  them super fun and powerful and things like   that in-game specifically as you've probably been  able to tell if you read the title to the video uh   we're talking today about the necromancer and the  oathbreaker paladin uh combined right so you're   playing with a friend hopefully one of these  characters and and your buddies playing the other   so um you know before we jump into the builds  as always i have uh some things to talk about so   i have had um a lot of requests for necromancer  the very first poll that i ever did asking you   guys what you wanted to see me do a build on next  had a sort of necromancer or other summoner type   um in there and it won by a landslide and then  instead of doing necromancer i did the pokemon   trainer uh episode um that was fun and i think  fairly well received but i've been putting off   necromancer ever since and i still get requests  for it so we're gonna do it today but i wanted   to couple it with um the oathbreaker paladin  because i think there's so many great and fun   synergies between the two both from a  roleplay thematic perspective but also   uh from a numbers perspective so the reality  is this these are going to be a couple of my   i would say less complicated builds um we're not  gonna be doing a lot of multi-classing we're not   gonna be taking a lot of feats um you know there  there's just not a lot that's super complicated   about it what i really want to explore is both  the numbers potential as always but also discuss   the challenges and problems that you run into  whenever you have a character or characters   like this that focus a lot on summoning lots of  monsters and minions to sort of do their fighting   for them and i think nobody kind of gets at the  problems the potential problems and challenges   that are inherent in that sort of play style  than the necromancer in particular the the   preamble and the conversation here is going to be  a little bit long i think the actual build itself   will be a little bit more straightforward and not  super complicated and hopefully a little shorter   although there will be two characters  so that could make up for it but anyway   um let's jump into sort of the important  discussion that we need to have about   the challenges that playing a necromancer in  particular one who's abusing the animate dead   spell presents at your table so here's my  hypothesis necromancers as they exist in 5e   particularly when they abuse the animate  dead spell are broken and and by broken i   don't mean they're so overpowered that they  absolutely have to be nerfed it's more like   they're either so overpowered that they have to  be nerfed or they're largely worthless and and and   trivialized right so there doesn't seem to be to  me a lot of in between to those two extremes with   this particular class and spell um you could as a  necromancer using and abusing animate dead using   all of your highest level spell slots to summon  skeletons and zombies um you could potentially   uh you know summon dozens and dozens by mid and  late game of undead fralls using this single spell   doesn't require concentration you can buff them  pretty nicely which we're going to do especially   with the help of your oath breaker paladin ally  which you know like i say we will do um and if you   could actually get all of these undead to fight  for you to take a turn in combat making attacks   um at mid and higher levels they will be doing  hundreds and hundreds of damage per round   sustainably and so much damage that it would  be almost impossible for any reasonable dm   to not just simply destroy them in mass with you  know level five cleric or above with a single   channel divinity you know destroy undead um or  you know a spell caster throwing out some powerful   area of effect damage spells and so you know  again if you're if you're kind of wanting to play   this necromancer with an undead army like you're  either way too strong or worthless and and there's   not a lot of middle ground here the obvious  solution i suppose is well don't abuse the spell   that's tough for me and i think other people who  who like to crunch numbers and stretch the limits   of you know what's possible to sort of be given  this toy but be told well like you can't use it   to its full potential as we've written it into the  game um you know we're leaving a governor on uh   this this tool that we've given you um you could  do it it would have to be some sort of artificial   constraints that you'd talk talk over with your dm  i think to sort of try and find a balance for it   and we will discuss some of those solutions in the  final thoughts so stay tuned um i think i'm also   actually going to bring this up in my sliding into  my dms episode this week so stay tuned for that if   this is interesting to you and you want to kind  of see some further discussion on it let's take   a look at all of the sort of potential problems  and questions in addition to the balance issue   that you're going to run into and have to deal  with when playing this necromancer oath breaker   combo and trying to really lean on you know  the action economy of having lots and lots of   undead minions at your command first off  like i've said they are highly susceptible to   a single area of effect damage spell with  the buffs that we're going to be giving them   most i think would be able to survive for at least  a couple of big area of effect spells maybe even   three depending on the level and how the dice are  rolled and things um but still you know pretty   susceptible there um susceptible to you know even  more deadly here a single cleric with you know a   destroy undead capability that's gonna wipe out  all of these skeletons and zombies they are after   all only a one-quarter level challenge rating  so like i've said a level five cleric is going   to be able to really trivialize you know all of  these resources and things that you've dumped into   into creating this this undead army right in  addition to that though there are a lot of   other logistic and potentially role play problems  you know other characters in your party might not   be really comfortable playing with a character  who sort of controls and summons you know undead   minions to fight for them the oath breaker paladin  in particular we are told to play an oath breaker   you have to be an evil character um we did a slide  into my dm's episode on uh character alignment   and and so you know feel free to check that out  and and explore the potential challenges and and   pitfalls that you might run into um with  you know playing with evil characters and   things but some dms might not like that or even  allow it some players might struggle with that   and maybe they want to play like a lawful good  character or something and you're gonna have to   kind of figure out how to navigate that like in  your party i'm not saying that it can't be done   it's just something that you're gonna need to  think about and plan on and talk with you know   your other players and your dm about not only  that a lot of the npcs in your campaign are very   likely going to have a problem with you you know  traipsing around with lots and lots of skeletons   and zombies and things following you right  anytime you're trying to go into a town or a city   the guards probably aren't going to be real  comfortable with that they you know you might   end up getting in fights you could potentially  leave your undead thralls outside of the city   once they get more than 60 feet away from you  you you can't issue commands to them anymore   you could give them a general command that they  would just continue to keep you know you could   say hey go hide in the woods over here and stay  there until i come back or something like that but   it can be tricky right it can be tricky in that  regard thinking about okay how you know how am i   going to deal with having these undead minions in  you know a populated place one of the biggest ones   uh challenges questions you're going to need to  address for me is you know having a lot of minions   in general really runs the risk of slowing down  uh your combat combat can already sometimes be   a little slow and a little chuggy right um in your  game and and you know add to that somebody who has   10 or 15 or heaven forbid 70 skeletons that  are all going to take a turn making an attack   you know every single round can just be frankly  devastating to your campaign's morale and and just   excitement and energy levels right it can get  really slow and frankly boring for other people   every time your turn comes up if it's going to  take 10 15 20 minutes to resolve your turn right   you know what can i do to sort of speed things up  on my turn maybe you're using a digital die roller   and you're saying dm give me the ac that i need to  hit and you just go to google and type slash roll   you know 10 d20 or whatever and  just look at them and add your   plus to hit modifier in your head and go okay  hit hit miss miss hit miss hit miss miss hit   right or whatever and then roll all the damage  at once or something like that i mean or you   know pre-roll before it's your turn start rolling  and writing down you know what your numbers are   maybe consider grouping your enemies in groups  of three or five or something like that again   something to talk over with your dm and strategize  here so that you so that having lots of undead   minions isn't just slowing combat down to a crawl  and making it difficult for your entire party   what do you do with them when you're in tight  spaces in inside a building in a dungeon crawl   where there's sort of narrow corridors and  kind of smaller rooms if you have more than   three or four or five six it can get really  challenging there's not a lot of room to kind   of maneuver to get you know things in range to be  able to make attacks and stuff like that and so   you know if you if you get too many of  them and if you're going to be playing   in a lot of tight enclosed spaces this may not be  the character for this particular campaign right   they're going to do a lot better in  big spaces especially outdoor where   you know everybody can kind of spread out and  things so again something to think about another   potential challenge or problem what happens if  you go unconscious you're you lose control of   your of your minions and that's something that  your party's gonna have to deal with and that's   actually i like this it's kind of cool it's  it's a high-risk high-reward kind of thing   um really might upset your party if all of a  sudden in the middle of a challenging combat   now they also have to deal with 10 skeletons or  something like that because you went down right   um so something to think about where are you  getting all of these corpses or piles of bones   um you know if it's from your slain enemies okay  but you know especially once you get in the really   high numbers that we're going to be getting into  you're going to have to be robbing graves probably   exhuming corpses i don't know how do you deal with  creatures who are resistant to non-magical attacks   i mean can you equip your can you equip your  undead thralls with better armor with better   weapons with you know magic weapons so they can  overcome resistance to non-magical attacks um   also do they do they rise up if you see a pile of  bones lying there that doesn't have a short sword   or a or a short bow and you create a skeleton out  of it does it have a short bow and a short sword i   mean i guess i would say yes rules as written the  spell seems to indicate such that skeletons have   a short bow and a short sword but i've seen dms  say well you know you got to give them a weapon   to attack with right these are things that you're  going to want to talk about think about equipment   and can i upgrade their equipment or are they  just sort of stuck with nope you know this is a   skeleton they have a short bow they have short  sword the end and their armor class is 13 and   it's never going to increase you know etc you  know if you can equip them with upgraded gear   you're going to have to think about well how  are you going to haul all of that gear if   if and when your undead minions die and you  don't have any spell slots to reanimate more   you know you're hauling around suddenly  lots of you know plus one short swords or   you know lots of plate male armor or you  know plate armor or chain mail armor or   whatever i guess get a bag of holding or  maybe you're gonna have to have a cart   maybe to stash extra corpses too while you're at  it and drive around i mean these are you know some   logistical things that you're gonna have to think  about the question that i have if your skeleton   dies can you re-raise a new  skeleton from the same pile of bones   maybe you know unless it got turned to ash or  something like that i suppose but at what point um   do you just have to sort of find a new corpse or  find a new pile of bones to create a new skeleton   that's something that i would discuss with my dm  beforehand especially if i'm relying so heavily on   these for my damage and it's you know so central  to my character all of these things and and   probably others that i'm not thinking about  are important questions that you're going to   want to talk with your other party members with  your dungeon master and make sure that you just   have sort of your eyes wide open and everybody  else's eyes wide open as to what you're trying   to do the potential challenges your plan for  dealing with those potential challenges etc   etc so that you can make the experience not a  disappointing one for you for everyone else at   your party for your dm etc etc despite all of  these potential challenges potential drawbacks   i personally am still very very curious to see  just how far we could go with this undead army   if we pushed it to its extreme limit buffing it as  much as we can um summoning as many undead minions   as we possibly can even if even if it might not  work very well in game exactly as i'm going to   talk about with just these dozens and dozens of  minions i want to see what the limits are and   then again as always you know it will help us and  you know where to scale back and maybe where to   try and find compromises with your dm and things  like that so let's explore the extremes episode 36   the necromancer and the oath breaker and again  stay tuned for you know the final thoughts at   the end where we'll talk a little bit about some  ideas for maybe finding a way to balance this make   compromises between you and your dm and stay tuned  for the slide into my dm's episode later this week   while we where we will continue that conversation  let's jump in at level one um we are not by the   way going to be doing any multi-classing on either  of these characters i know some of you who ask me   to do this once in a while can can rejoice the  spells and abilities for both classes are super   important and you know this build is really all  about getting the most out of our undead minions   and so the best way for us to do that is to  get as many levels as quickly as possible in   these classes that we've chosen and really  you know individual character strength and   damage and things like that is is much less  important than uh the buffs that we can bring   to our horde of undead at level one for  the wizard character um class wizard   obviously uh i i would i would think it would  be important for you to figure out why your   character is so fascinated with undeath  um are you evil or are you simply curious both something else you know definitely spend some  time thinking about that as for uh your race i'm   gonna recommend a tortle um this is the squishiest  wizard i've ever created uh outside of my the   wizard that i did for my wizard druid team-up  build and primarily because i'm such a gish lover   right uh so there's no feat other than you know  the the usual warcaster or resilient constitution   that really screams out to me here um and you  know we're primarily going to be in the back line   but you know taking that turtle and having  that 17 natural armor is just going to be   really nice for our survivability plus the idea  of a turtle walking around with a big skull   painted on its shell is just it's just too good  to pass up bones you know hanging from its shell   and around its neck and things like that i love  i love the image for those who don't know like i   said turtles get a 17 natural armor but you can't  benefit from any other armor you try to equip   and you also including mage armor and you also  can't benefit from like your dexterity bonus   that's really that's fine i mean you know a  17 is higher than we would have been able to   have with mage armor and a high decks and  now we get to save on ability score points   put them elsewhere if we want and uh you know save  a spell slot by not having to to use mage armor so   of course we could multi-class to try  and pick up heavy armor proficiency   you know things like that but like i said i really  want to just beeline um in these classes so uh no   multiclassing um turtles also get shell  defense which is cool and fun and and   i don't know i i love the idea of it as an action  you essentially go inside your shell and it gives   you a plus four to your ac while you're in there  as well as advantage on strength and concentration   saves so that would include your concentration  checks right um meaning that you know we might   not need warcaster or resilient con after all if  we're going to take advantage of this a lot which   we may not decide to do um for roleplay purposes  and just for story and things i i would love to   actually just like put up a concentration  spell i've got my undead minions eventually   and then i just like hide up in my shell  and just let everybody else do the work   but when you when you are in your shell like  that you are prone so melee enemies would have   advantage on attacks against you so it might  not be great for your defense after all you know   something you'll have to think about and of course  you won't be able to take actions while you're in   there like cast can trips and things to sort of  help bump your damage um but a fun option to have   an alternate race i think here for me would  be um a drow half elf half health drow   you know you get another plus one  ability score increase which is nice   but then also you get a fairy fire spell you  can use very fire once per long rest only but   wizards don't typically get access to fairy fire  and that that will be a nice especially early   on concentration spell that you can use that  will really increase the damage of your undead   horde and of course um your allies when they're  attacking against a target that has ferry fire on   them they'll be able to do so with advantage and  um so anyway a good alternative uh as far as your   ability scores go assuming point by as always i  recommend a 14 intelligence and then use your plus   two from your racial on that so you're at 16. uh  15 constitution plus one from your ratio there so   16 on both of those and then you know other than  that assign the points wherever you think uh best   um try and you know even them out i guess as much  as you can to help with your saving throws maybe   down the line and your skill checks and things as  far as equipment standard stuff i'm not going to   really go into it much just you know pick whatever  looks useful and helpful we're not going to be   super dependent on our equipment as far as spells  also fairly standard stuff most of your spell   slots especially once you get to level five and  beyond are going to be used for your undead army   or probably for defending yourself so you know  be sure to pick up firebolt and told the dead   as can trips they'll be your sort of damage  options make sure you pick up shield and   absorb elements to help you know on your defense  shield of course has a reaction that's going to   raise your armor class by five until the start of  your turn potentially causing attacks to miss you   absorb elements among other things lets you  have resistance to a lot of different damage   types and also usable as a reaction so those are  great for defensive purposes that's the wizard so   at level one for the paladin obviously your class  is a paladin uh and you know again i would think   about this why i mean oathbreakers we're told are  are supposed to be evil did you start out as evil   um are you going to be breaking your oath along  the way uh what caused you to break that oath   right these are all i think important things  obviously to think about when you're creating   your character as far as race goes i'd recommend  variant human there is a feat that we really   really want eventually anyway and we might as well  get it now and save ourselves an asi or feet later   if your dm already gives you a free feed or if  you're looking for an alternative to variant human   um i might go elf and not  because i want elven accuracy um   i would i would take a drow and again this might  work really well if uh if if your wizard took   the half-health drought drow maybe you guys are  related but um it it feels on point thematically   in fact i could even see a story here where  you were a you were a drow elf paladin of lolth   and you broke your oath and thereby became neutral  maybe or good of course assuming your dm would   allow it um that could be interesting but also  since elves don't need to sleep and they only   need four hours to benefit from a long rest it  will be easier for you to spend time buffing your   undead minions once you have them and you pick up  this feat eventually that we're going to get and   i'll assume that you'll get if you went variant  human and that free feat is the inspired leader   feat so inspired leader is pretty fantastic for  us especially for those who aren't familiar with   this feat you spend 10 minutes inspiring  up to six creatures including yourself   with a rousing you know speech each creature  gains temporary hit points equal to your level   plus your charisma modifier um they can't gain any  more temporary hit points in this way until they   take a short or a long rest eventually you will  have more many many more than five undead thralls   so you will actually need to take 10 minutes  like inspiring them in small groups i suppose   assuming you've got the time it will be  time consuming eventually and so you know   it might not work practically but anyway um  at least through the first you know several   levels and into the mid game um i think it's  you know you can you can assume that you'll   be able to do this with all of your undead  thralls um and and frankly i love the idea   of an evil paladin giving like an inspiring  speech to a bunch of skeletons and zombies i mean   wha what is a what is a what does a leader say to  a skeleton in order to inspire them and get them   pumped up i would love to know what you would  tell your horde of uh undead in order to um in   order to inspire them to to fight uh better in  in the coming conflict take an extra you know 10   20 30 minutes depending on how many you have each  short rest to make sure that your allies of course   and then also your undead thralls get uh get  these extra hit points because it will it will   you know go a long way in combat especially for  these undead who tend to be pretty squishy here   is a question that you're going to want to make  sure you're clear on with your dm you know can   my undead minions or the necromancers undead  minions anyway benefit from a short or a long rest   and thereby not only you know use hit dice  to recover hit points and things like that   and recover full after a long rest but also  benefit multiple times a day potentially from   this inspiring leader feat inspired leader  uh feat and i think the answer is yes um   the question was asked to jeremy crawford and he  said that yeah you know like any other creature   they should be able to benefit from short and  long rests um i know that my dm corey doesn't love   always looking to jeremy crawford for for rulings  and advice and things i think he can be a useful   guide and so i appreciate that that he made this  comment here makes me feel better about assuming   that you'll be able to do the same keep that in  mind because it does make them a lot more durable   a lot stronger if they can benefit from rests  paladin ability scores again assuming point by   i would recommend starting with a strength of 15  plus one charisma of 15 plus one for your racials   right and a constitution of 14. um paladins are  notoriously mad multiple ability score dependent   um and sure you could take a hex play dip here  to not have to rely on strength so much so   you could use charisma for both your attack  and uh your spells and things like that but   um as i said at the beginning i want to get to  mid-level as quickly as possible so no detours   no detours equipment standard stuff again take a  shield take your chain mail armor get a d8 weapon   um you know whether that's a mace or a battle axe  or a long sword or whatever not a mace sorry a   warhammer anyway divine sense is something that  all paladins get at uh at level one and it just   lets you detect the presence of celestial's undead  or fiends within 60 feet of you which for you   will be everywhere imagine a radar like  lighting up blip blip and it's just like   um anyway lay on hands is that other  quintessential pally ability it lets you heal with   your touch you have a pool of hit points based  on your paladin level times five that you can use   to sort of heal yourself or others from any damage  that they've taken you can't use it on undead or   constructs unfortunately um but you can use it  to heal poison and disease as well so that's nice   and that's level one all right at level two um  for your wizard at level two wizards get their   subclass their arcane tradition and of course  we are going school of necromancy necromancers   at level two get a feature called grim harvest  and we're told that with grim harvest when you   kill a creature with a spell of first level  or higher you gain hit points equal to twice   the spell's level or three times the spell's  level if it is from the school of necromancy   um it's a nice little self-heal you know you might  want to consider making sure that you have ray of   sickness in your arsenal at this point um it's a  necromancy spell it does damage and it potentially   poisons the target which is great you know  causing them to have disadvantage on their attacks   and things um and on their saves uh if you're  pretty sure that you're going to kill the target   and you could use the hit points more than the  spell slot you know go ahead and and use that   really there's not a lot else that separates uh  necromancers from other wizards at this point   in fact i'd say that that this level two feature  that you get is fairly weak compared to other to   a lot of other schools considering that you have  to like make the killing blow using a spell slot   to regain a little bit of hit points um you know  right now we're pretty much just staying alive   and being your typical blaster type you know spell  caster until we hit level five and especially six   um that's when it'll really start to feel like  you know we are a commander of undead minions   um so for now stay alive blast things level two  paladin paladins get a fighting style at level two   i would recommend going with interception  the interception fighting style that's new   uh from tasha's cauldron of everything you know  if things go according to plan eventually we're   going to be fighting with lots of minions around  us right and they will be fairly squishy even with   the buffs that we're going to be giving them so  every way that we can find to help keep them alive   a little bit longer will be nice and interceptions  fantastic i think so with interception um as a   reaction when when an ally within five feet of you  takes damage you can you know impose your shield   or uh your weapon or something to absorb some of  that damage it's a d10 plus your proficiency bonus   which is really a pretty decent amount of hit  points that you're intercepting especially for   a target that doesn't have a lot of hit points  to begin with right it can be a really nice   way to help keep your your undead alive and i  think better than the defensive fighting style   personally um defensive fighting style similar  you use your reaction to an ally that's nearby   but you impose disadvantage on the attack your  undead thralls are not going to have a really   high armor class and it's not going to increase  and so even imposing disadvantage i think they're   more often than not going to be getting hit  especially as the game goes on and so just   reducing the damage is probably going to you're  probably going to get more mileage out of that   than than imposing disadvantage i think  also at level two paladins get divine smite   that other quintessential um paladin ability  that everyone knows and loves so when you hit   an enemy with a melee weapon attack um you can  burn a spell slot a first level spell slot to do   2d8 additional damage for every spell slot  above first level you can do an additional 1d8   of damage and divine smite is capped at a 5d8  additional damage which would be a fourth level   spell slot right we're actually probably going to  get a bit of mileage out of divine smite frankly   because we're probably not going to be using a ton  of our spells otherwise with with one exception um   of course you could always you know fill  the you know the role of kind of a healer   um support type character here um especially  right now so maybe you will be using your spell   slots for you know healing and buffing  and things like that at least at least   early on um it may feel a little out of character  for your evil paladin to be sort of like healing   and stuff but i don't know you could still heal  and be selfish right you're you you realize that   that these other party members are tools for you  to accomplish you know your nefarious purposes i   don't know and so you're going to keep them alive  because they're going to help further your ends   spells speaking of so you know to that end sure  pick up cure wounds to heal people especially you   know if they've gone down and you can bring them  back up bless of course is one of the best buff   spells in the game as far as i'm concerned letting  you know the people that you cast it on get to add   a d4 to their attacks and to their saving throws  all the usual suspects are pretty good options   here for spells again for now just like you're  your necromancer friend you're pretty much just   functioning as a fairly typical paladin um maybe  and maybe you're even sort of pulling the wool   over over your other party member's eyes right  maybe they don't know you're an oath breaker or   that you're planning on being an oath breaker um  maybe you're tricking them into trusting you maybe   you're disguising your true motives if you're  gonna go this route obviously i would talk about   this with your dm maybe even the other players  sometimes pulling a betrayal kind of tactic can   really sour um things for the other players at  your table so you know just keep that in mind   as you're planning your uh nefariousness level  three uh at level three your wizard is going to um   get second level spells and honestly like knock  yourself out dragon's breath is pretty good for   sustained damage per round because you get  to use it every single turn and potentially   impact multiple enemies so if you can hit multiple  enemies with it i would say go for it otherwise   it's not great if you're just using it on a single  target you're soon anyway you're gonna be better   off with with cantrips the other usual suspects  are all fair game here i would particularly   highlight web and hold person so these these  two offer really great control right web   gives an area of effect potential control where  if enemies fail their save they're going to   be restrained and that's going to give people  advantage on attacking them and it's going to   cause them to have to use their turn in order to  get out of your web and things like that so that's   great for control and frankly for damage for the  for your entire party right um a whole person is   even stronger potentially but it's only against  one target right and they have to be humanoid   but if if they fail their save they're going to  be paralyzed meaning that not only do all attacks   against them have advantage but if they hit  they're automatically critical hits and obviously   that's huge and it's going to really be a big  damage boost to your whole party including your   undead thralls that you will be getting shortly  at level three your paladin your oath breaker   uh gets uh the divine health feature which means  that they're immune to disease that's great   um and then they get their sacred oath their  subclass so of course we're going oathbreaker   um here's a question do you do you have to  choose another oath first in order to become   an oath breaker um it's a little unclear i mean  it doesn't seem so rules as written it doesn't   necessarily specify that i don't think at least  that's my interpretation um again discuss it   with your dm right uh i'm sure if this is your  plan to go oathbreaker from the beginning you   know your dm would probably be fine just letting  you sort of be an oath breaker at level three um   but you know something to keep in mind and  could be great for story purposes to maybe   take a different oath and then break it you know  shortly after or something like that because of   something that happens right you get channel  divinity and the oath breaker paladin gets two   as all paladins do gets two options for their  channel divinity use um first off control and dead   control and dead is um pretty strong right  so as an action you can target one undead   whose challenge rating is lower than your  level right so at this point it could only   be a challenge rating two or less um that's  pretty strong still but anyway they make a   wisdom saving throw and if they fail it  they are under your command for 24 hours   similar to the animate dead spell that we'll talk  about in a minute um before the time is up you can   use your channel divinity again you know before  that 24 hours ends to just maintain control for   another 24 hours and that can be really strong  because it you know it again it scales as you   level so you could potentially control some  pretty powerful undead minions with this problem   of course is i have no idea what kind of undead  you're going to be running into in your campaign   you might not run into any other undead except  for the ones that you yourselves you know summon   and bring to the battle so um anyway potentially  really powerful if you ever do use this i would   love to see the rest of your party's reaction  right um if they sort of didn't know that you   were an oath breaker or planning on on being an  oath breaker um you know you're fighting a bunch   of skeletons and then uh suddenly one of them's  your friend and he's following you around and   the rest of your party's like care to explain  yourself there mr self-righteous again like i   say don't know if you'll be able to use this and  you know with what creatures you'll be able to   control but if you get a good one more power to  you it'll be awesome the other channel devended   the option that paladins get is dreadful  aspect um it's a very powerful fear actually   so as an action you choose creatures within  30 feet of you that you can see they have to   make a wisdom save and and that's really nice  actually that you get to pick and choose who   is going to be afraid right they have to make a  wisdom save or be feared for one minute meaning   they have of course disadvantage on attacks  and ability checks while they can see you   um and they don't automatically get to save  again against this fear on their next turn   like a lot of you know abilities that cause  fear allow uh only if they move 30 feet away   from you so they have to be 30 feet away  from you and then they can make a save   to try and break that fear so really strong debuff  and even kind of a soft control option um and it   will do a lot to keep your party members and your  undead minions alive hey guys um what happened sorry it's night time now um mr rogers is editing  uh the video right now and he just let me know   that for some reason level four got cut off so i'm  sure it was something that i did wrong but anyway   um here we go at level four your wizard  necromancer gets their first ability score   increase our feet and naturally you're going to go  with intelligence part of me is tempted to go with   constitution here or maybe even like resilient  khan or you know or warcaster or something but   at the end of the day you are a wizard and you  want your spells to not get resisted and do   more damage and hit more often so anyway we're  going to go with with intelligence as for the   paladin kind of the same thing right your first  ability score increase or feet at level four   and you want to take charisma now the wizard  doesn't actually benefit their undead horde   all that much with an increased intelligence  um the paladin on the other hand truly does   um not only in the temporary hit point uh the  additional temporary hit points um that that they   will get from their inspiring leader inspired  leader feet but there are other things that   will come along as well that will increase the  skeleton's damage actually and survivability based   on the paladin's charisma so we're going to try  and get that charisma up as quickly as possible   okay back to the regular version of the show at  level five um things start to get good for us so   uh your wizard gets third level spells and we're  gonna talk about animate dead and we're gonna talk   about counterspell so animate dead first this  is your bread and butter um and how it works is   it doesn't require concentration you choose a  pile of bones or a small or medium humanoid corpse   if bones you raise a skeleton if corpse you  raise a zombie and i'll add i don't know why you   couldn't raise a skeleton from a corpse assuming  that there are bones inside of it um you know   maybe your dm will make you burn the flesh away  first before you actually get to use the bones   this is going to get really macabre  isn't it macabre makeup macabre   macabre um macabre uh anyway which should you  choose uh skeletons or zombies um in a nutshell   the skeletons can attack from range or melee they  come equipped with a short sword and a short bow   supposedly and again this is where our earlier  questions about how they're equipped come into   play but for number crunching purposes i'm just  going to assume that the abilities and statistics   are exactly like they show up in the monster  manual as per the spell description right um   they do more damage than zombies skeletons do they  have a higher armor class but fewer hit points   zombies are melee only they they do less damage  they have a lower armor class much lower but   they have more hit points they also have  a chance to only drop to one hit point   if they're dealt a killing blow a lot of people  will argue that you should have a mix and you know   once you get a few of them anyway and kind of have  your zombies act as sort of a front line disrupter   for your skeletons that stand back and and  shoot uh their bows at um the enemies it's   not a terrible idea i i don't know that zombies  are a lot tankier beefier than skeletons because   their ac is so low and they might not succeed  on that um on that ability whatever it's called   floating text please um that lets them survive  sometimes if they take a killing blow right   um but anyway we're going to assume that you're  just taking all skeletons uh for now they're all   attacking from range to sort of try and keep them  spread out and less susceptible to area of effect   damage abilities and spells and things because  we're trying to explore the limits of what's   possible from a damage perspective just  remember like i say keep them spread out   for now you can only raise one undead using a  third level spell that will change shortly and you   get two more undead for every level you upcast the  spell um so a fourth level spell slot would give   you three right it does not require concentration  um the undead remains under your control for 24   hours similar to you know the paladin's channel  divinity at which point you can recast the spell   in order to maintain control so hopefully  you've had a long rest or else you could be   in big trouble um and you've got those spell slots  available right you you can command um any or all   of your undead minions using a bonus action uh you  you just issue them a command to do something uh   and or you could even issue them a general command  like attack what i attack or attack that thing or   attack what my paladin ally attacks for that  matter and they should just continue doing   that until you know you give them a bonus action  telling them to do something else on a subsequent   turn so it shouldn't require you to use a  bonus action every turn to command them right   um so that's powerful it's going to get crazy  for us and you'll see as we get into the numbers   and higher levels want to talk about counter  spell counterspell very important right um again   as we've discussed one of the things that is  really going to rain on your undead parade a bunch of undead playing trombone marching down  on macy's day thanksgiving parade um the thing   that's going to make your life miserable is uh  you know fireballs and other area of effect spells   so having counterspell will be important for you  right to potentially stop that from happening and   blowing all of your hard-earned undead minions  to smithereens um the way counter-spell works   when an enemy spellcaster goes to cast a spell  as a reaction you can try to thwart it stop it   if you know if you're using a third level spell  slot then any spell being cast third level or   lower will automatically be winked out and take  no effect if the spell that's being cast by your   enemy is you know higher than the spell slot that  you are using for counter spell then you have to   make a check to see if you actually counter it  right um the the dc is 10 plus the enemy spell   level and you're using your spell casting  ability on that check intelligence for us   obviously realistically you should probably always  save a spell slot or two for a counter spell   for number crunching of course i'm assuming  that we're throwing caution to the wind   and we're going to use all of our spell slots for  more minions you probably shouldn't do that but   again we're exploring the possible so level 5 for  your paladin oath breaker they get extra attack   fantastic more damage and second level spells  the only one that i'll mention is aid aid of   course lets you pick three allies doesn't require  concentration unless you pick three allies raise   their max hit points by five and and give them  five more hit points right um keep in mind this   is different than temporary hit points so they do  stack and that's great now most would argue that   that other players characters are more powerful  than undead thralls than your little skeletons   right they should therefore be the beneficiary  of an aids spell they'd probably be right   um and you know i mean before long you're  not going to be able to to cast this on   every undead minion that your necromancer ally is  summoning when you up cast aid it only increases   the max hit points that get raised not the  number of creatures that are affected by it   um so you know why bother i still like it um  these skeletons represent a big investment   on your ally necromancer's part  and frankly on yours it's kind of   why you're here is to buff these things um so  you know five more hit points on a skeleton   with only 13 hit points to begin with uh is  a big increase you may decide not to use it   that's fine at level six your necromancer gets  undead brawls and now we really start to feel   like a necromancer when you cast animate dead you  get to raise one additional skeleton or zombie   awesome especially for a level three spell  it doubles its effectiveness right also your   undead thralls get extra hit points equal to your  wizard level and this is one of the reasons why   we're not multi-classing because we want to  buff these things as much as we possibly can   and they get to add your proficiency bonus to  their weapon damage rolls i wish it were attack   rolls because their plus to hit is not fabulous  and as monsters get harder and harder to hit   they get less and less effective but anyway it's  a nice bump that plus the damage is great so at   this point if we were to use all three of our  third level spell slots as a necromancer to cast   animate dead we would have six skeletons right um  assuming our paladin gives them a rousing speech   at the beginning of each day and you know at  every rest they would have 13 hit points plus 10   for inspired leader plus six for your level for a  total of 29 hit points each um three of them might   even have more if your paladin's using aid on  them that's not bad right beefy little skeletons   uh okay so level six your paladin your oath  breaker gets aura of protection it's so good   um you and all of your allies within 10 feet of  you get to add a bonus equal to your charisma   modifier which is a plus four right now uh  to all of their saving throws your auras   mr paladin are the main reason you're here don't  forget that um skeletons would have a plus six to   their dexterity saving throws now so they've  got a pretty decent chance at saving against   that fireball and probably surviving two or maybe  even three fireballs depending on the dice rolls   here um a third level fireball does 32 damage  on average so if they made a save would be 16   right maybe three if it was a low if it  was a low damage roll on that fireball   um okay level six damage report skeletons right  now have a plus four to hit they'll always have a   plus four to hit uh d6 plus two is typical plus  three for your necromancer's proficiency bonus   so plus five total and you have up to six of them  um we're looking for sustained damage numbers   here so i'm simply assuming that your wizard  is just casting you know told the dead every   turn for 2d 12 damage assuming they're casting  it on a target that's not at full health right   and the paladin is just whacking  stuff with a with a d8 weapon   obviously you could go with a two-handed weapon  here but staying alive is much more important   to your overall damage than an extra two damage  from you know a great sword would be um so you're   using a shield you're staying alive so against  um an enemy with a 10 armor class and a plus   zero to their wisdom saving throw all in with you  know the wizard the skeletons and the necromancer   you're doing 62 damage per round on average  and against an enemy with a 15 armor class   and a plus five to their wisdom saving throw  you're doing 42 damage per round um it's not bad   you know compared to the other team up builds  that i've done so far um it's not great check   out the uh the link to the graphs and the math  in the uh in the video description um but yeah   it's middle of the pack against low uh ac  enemies and bottom of the pack against high ac   enemies um now if they are making attacks against  enemies restrained by your web spell for example   that your necromancer cast and thereby have  advantage obviously the numbers go way up um if   they're making an attack against an enemy that you  that your necromancer cast hold person on and and   it stuck and they're paralyzed right and well now  they have advantage and every hit's an automatic   critical obviously the damage goes up even more um  that's the great thing about being a wizard right   so my advice would be for the necromancer to again  use your concentration spell spells for control   uh you know finding ways to help your horde  be more effective in combat and of course   obviously if your dungeon master lets you equip  your skeletons with better weapons your damage   is going to go up etc um granted there's more to  this undead army than just doing damage right um   being a meat shield is fantastic and if you're  saving your party members from getting hit   then then it is a skeleton well used right um but  anyway those are the numbers right at level seven   um your necromancer gets fourth level spell slots  and that means for us if we up cast animate dead   we're getting four more undead with that spell  slot and again of course you may want to use your   fourth level spell slot for any other number of  things but this is what we are going to be doing   to try and push the limits of how powerful an  undead army we can amass right um level seven   your paladin gets aura of hate and this is the  other main reason why we are here from now on you   this paladin and any undead and fiends  within 10 feet of you gain a bonus to   melee weapon damage rolls equal to your charisma  modifier plus four still for now um but wait you   might ask i thought we were you know making these  skeletons attack from range right wasn't that the   point uh we were and still will be largely  but um now you know i like to think of it as   something has shifted sort of within the dynamic  um between you between the necromancer the paladin   and this undead horde they've they've come to view  him or her more as a platoon leader right they're   they're waiting into battle um with with the  oath breaker and uh and you know the necromancer   is really sort of acting as the general  directing them or me and or the arms supplier   anyway they're going into battle with the oath  breaker you know standing shoulder to shoulder um   hacking it at the same enemy with their  short swords uh instead of shooting it   with their bows or at least um i mean assuming  a medium-sized creature you could potentially   surround it right with the oath breaker plus  seven other skeletons right could surround   a single medium or small-sized creature um they  would get to benefit from from both of its auras   are of protection and uh this new ara of hate  and just do a lot more damage um these are your   special forces skelly's your your your green beret  is your death squad right and maybe three of them   end up getting a blessed spell from the from the  paladin or i mean sorry that aid spell from the   paladin uh or i suppose bless right could could  could also work here but we're going to have use   for a concentration here in a minute um and you  know if one of those melee skellies goes down   maybe one of the ones that are hanging in the back  shooting boasts pulls out their short sword and   steps into the fray right um yes in melee range  your minions are more likely to get killed but   that's again that's kind of a good thing  it's it's not it's not terrible for them to   take a hit that otherwise would be directed at  you or one of your party members right um and at   this point your skeletons have have 31 hit points  including the temporary hit points that you give   them with a plus six to their deck save you know  um and and and those things will keep going up   so i'm a little less nervous about them getting  wiped out um it's still very possible again of   course with you know with a cleric or with an  area of effect powerful area of effect spell um   but you know this all goes back to everything that  we talked about at the beginning in the preamble   so um level eight your necromancer gets another  ability score increase for feet um i'm going to   recommend that you bump intelligence again  and so now we're capped at 20 intelligence   which is great for all of our spells  and dc's and things um and you also get   another fourth level spell slot for four more  skeletons so now you've got 14 skeletons total   and that's nothing compared to where we're going  um level 8 paladin gets an ability score increase   our feet as well of course and again i'd recommend  that you bump charisma so we're capping that at   20. remember your charisma bumps the temporary  hit points that they're that that everybody's   going to receive um the melee damage that they  do and their plus to their saving throws so   really important for your paladin to get high  charisma asap at level 9 your necromancer   gets fifth level spells and if we were to use  that for anime dead that's six more skeletons   of course you might want to be using animate  objects or wall of force or lots of other amazing   spells and if you want to do that you should um  so we have 20 20 skeletons total now uh paladins   at ninth level get uh third level spells and  um we're going to talk about two are a vitality   and crusader's mantle so oathbreakers actually get  animate dead here but they don't when they cast it   it doesn't benefit from all of the things that the  necromancers animated dead uh benefit from so i'm   not gonna worry about it we won't get as many from  them anyway either um we have much more important   uses for our third level spells aura of vitality  is probably my favorite healing spell in the game   because i just love all things sustainable right  you cast it requires your concentration and then   as a bonus action um every turn as long as you  maintain concentration you can heal a creature   within 30 feet of you for 2d6 of healing it's not  a ton but you know your skeletons don't have a ton   and they could probably benefit from this because  it does not restrict you from using it on undead   so you can heal your minions here um if you're  more concerned about keeping your uh you know   your horde alive and having them sort of be a  meat shield for you and things um you might want   to consider using this of course we are exploring  the limits of what's possible damage wise so um   i'm going to talk about crusader's mantle  and assume that we're using it here   it's so perfect for us because unlike most  buffs in the game it has no cap on the number   of creatures that it can affect as long as a  non-hostile creature is within 30 feet of you   they do an extra d4 of radiant damage when  they hit with a weapon attack and i love   the idea by the way of an undead skeleton doing  radiant damage um on on an attack that's great   shouldn't they be doing necrotic nope they're  now holy evil undead things um of course a d4   isn't a ton of extra damage but uh multiplied by  20 skeletons it is right so level 9 damage report   all right our skeletons with temporary hit  points included now have 36 hit points not bad   they have a plus seven to their deck saves  pretty good right you'll have seven of them i'm   assuming in melee range with your oath breaker  surrounding a single small or medium-sized   creature and those melee skeletons would be  doing 1d6 plus 1d4 plus 11 damage now on each hit   and the other ones that are that are in range  13 other ones in range shooting bows are still   doing 1d6 plus 1d4 plus 6 damage per attack  um so against a target with a 10 armor class   and a plus 0 to their wisdom  save you would do on average   250 damage per round in this situation  and against a target with a 16 armor class   and a plus 6 to their wisdom save it  would be 155 damage per round on average throw computer out the window i mean this is you  know and this is of course much higher against   a restrained or paralyzed target you know  that's subjected to a wizard control spell   so just in three levels this this duo this  necromancer oath breaker duo you know went   from the bottom of the pack um compared  to other team-up builds that i've done to   head and shoulders above any other you know two  two character combo that we've done so far and   it's gonna get so much worse from here on out  i'm gonna try and move a little more quickly   um we've pretty much got the gist of what we're  doing the core of the builds for both of these   characters is pretty much complete and uh and  we're just kind of on a crazy train right now   and we're gonna write it to the end and see where  it takes us so at level 10 your necromancer gets   another fifth level spell slot um that's six  more skeletons for us assuming animate dead so   26 skeletons total and they get a feature called  innard to undeath which lets you become resistant   to necrotic damage and your hit point maximum  can't be reduced uh level 10 paladin oath breaker   gets uh the aura of courage which is nice you and  all friendlies within 10 feet of you um can't be   frightened any longer that's fantastic at level 11  the for your necromancer um you're told the dead   goes to 3d 12 now for what it's worth um and you  get level 6 spells that's eight more skeletons   for a total of 34. now you also have access  at this point as a sixth level spell to create   undead um and i want to talk about it for  a second because i think most people who   would talk about necromancers would recommend  this spell it lets you summon three ghouls   instead of eight skeletons right ghouls are  pretty powerful um you they it functions   the same way you have control of them for 24  hours you can recast it to maintain control etc   so okay ghouls are great they have nine more hit  points um it's one less ac so it's not actually a   ton tankier depending on what's attacking you  but anyway they also have this great feature   where if they hit something other than an elf  for some reason which i like uh or another undead   they can paralyze potentially the creature  paralyze right that's so so strong and so i think   this is why people say yeah ghouls they're awesome  the problem here well okay a couple of problems   the save to avoid being paralyzed is a concentr  sorry constitution save and that's usually pretty   high for a lot of monsters especially you know by  level 11. uh and the dc to resist it is only a 10.   they only have to get a 10 or better um you only  get three of them instead of eight skeletons so   just straight up damage wise the numbers are a lot  worse now if you could rely upon paralyzed hitting   um it would probably be worth it right  it would it would be worth it but i just   don't know what you're going to be fighting  um i mean i don't know i don't know how high   the enemy's resistance is going to be what  their constitution save is going to be like   but with a plus four to hit on these on  these ghouls and only a dc 10 for the save   it just it doesn't feel like a great trade to  me now maybe i'm wrong you get three chances   at it right with three goals so i don't know  maybe or maybe if you make sure you cast bless   on these ghouls and or you know take a spell  from your wizard to lower you know the saving   throws you know or multi-class in order to get  get it there things like that i mean there's   ways that you could kind of work around this  and and sort of make it work a little better but   that's that's just not what we've been doing  frankly um maybe we could get there and i'm   sure people will comment and say oh if you  you know did this and did that then it would   be fantastic and and sure you know if you wanted  to do something like that great in fact it might   make more sense because the number of skeletons  that we're getting is fairly untenable and we're   just again we're on the crazy train and we're  riding it to the end but anyway we're going to   assume skeletons here because eight skeletons is a  lot and with all the buffs that we're giving them   it's just you know action economy numbers it just  ends up being more damage um so level 11 paladin   they get improved divine smite um that's an  extra d8 of damage of radiant damage when you   hit with a melee weapon so that's great for our  paladin's damage at level 12 um your necromancer   gets another ability score increase or feat  i would say you know bump your constitution   or maybe take the resilient constitution  or warcaster feat we haven't done that yet   just you know helping our survival helping our  concentration saves level 12 paladin of course   also gets an ability score increaser feet and  i'm gonna recommend bumping the strength um get   it to 18. so now our weapon attacks we're going  to land more frequently hit harder um you know   maybe you'll want to go constitution again in the  interest of staying alive and things um so little   of our damage is coming from our actual oath  breaker and necromancer at this point right uh   that maybe we should just focus on survivability  but whatever we'll put it into strength here one   for for number crunching purposes it won't make  a huge difference one way or the other level 13   your necromancer gets level 7 spells that's  10 more skeletons for a total of 44 skeletons   42 skeletons 43 skeletons 44 skeletons um if  you actually use a seventh level spell slot for   animate dead i and your dm will be so disappointed  in you uh level 13 paladin oathbreaker uh   you get um aura of purity and this is just a  once in a while kind of thing but it would give   your army uh advantage on saves against being  blind charmed deafened paralyzed poisoned and   stunned um so super useful in those kind of niche  situations right again they're they've got to   be within 10 feet of you here level 13 damage  report right so 44 skeletons seven of them in   melee doing 1d6 plus 1 d4 plus 12 damage 37 of  them in range doing 1d6 plus 1d4 plus 7 damage   they have 44 hit points each and those within  10 feet of you anyway have a plus seven to their   dexterity saving through so against an enemy  with a 10 armor class and a plus zero to their   wisdom save you are doing on average 505 damage  per round and against an enemy with a 17 armor   class and a plus seven to their wisdom saving  throw you're still doing 280 damage per round   and it just is gonna keep getting worse so  let's keep going at level 14 your necromancer   gets the command undead feature as an  action you choose one undead you can see   it has to make a charisma save or be controlled  by you it's it's kind of similar to the paladin   channel divinity ability here except that there's  no challenge rating cap listed and you don't have   to do it every 24 hours you just have them  under your control until they die or you   die or you use this feature again on something  else if it has an intelligence of eight or more   it has advantage on its saving throw if it has  if it has an intelligence of 12 or more it can   make that saving throw every hour until it breaks  free um so you know i hope you run into like a   night walker or a storm giant skeleton right  that have low saving throws here and and and   under eight intelligence um i really do but i  have no way of knowing what you're gonna face   in your game so it could be amazing or it could  be worthless uh or anything in between but it's   really pretty cool and when you get to use  it on a powerful undead creature it will   feel really awesome in a way to bolster your your  your army of undead paladins at level 14 you get   cleansing touch as an action you can end one spell  on yourself or a willing creature period no save   no roll no nothing uh so pretty dang strong  against those really powerful enemy spellcasters   you can do it charisma modifier times per  day so five times you know per long rest   at level 15 your necromancer gets eighth level  spells and that means 12 more skeletons for   this uh this little trip down insanity lane that  we're on uh let's talk about create undead again   really quickly because if you cast create undead  as an eighth level spell you could now instead do   five ghouls two ghasts or two whites um ghasts  are basically more powerful versions of ghouls   but with the added bonus of potentially poisoning  anything within five feet of them um skeletons   are immune to poison so just keep them away from  you and your other allies and you should be fine again i'd still probably not use them over 12  more skeletons if we're if we're being ridiculous   and just kind of looking at numbers right whites  look really cool they can potentially life drain   and even raise a zombie from an enemy if they  get the killing blow on it and it's a humanoid   they're tankier than skeletons they do more  damage but again two of them pale in comparison   to 12 skeletons if you know if we were to up cast  animate dead when we're living in the fantasy land   of dozens of skeletons under your control um  just stay with me here so level 15 paladin um   you get supernatural resistance you have  resistance to non-magical bludgeoning piercing   uh or slashing damage and for those who have  watched videos in the past or or know this   already anyway a lot of you uh most of the  damage that that enemies are going to deal   in game comes in the form of non-magical  bludgeoning slashing or piercing damage   so that's actually really pretty good um  won't work against everything of course but   it will give you resistance to a lot of things  so that'll really improve your your survivability   a level 16 wizard gets their final ability score  increase or feat at least that we'll mention um so   again i'd take plus constitution or maybe  warcaster or resilient con if you haven't yet   um might as well try to increase our survivability  and our constitution and concentration saves   um level 16 paladin gets uh their ability  score increase our feet i would say   take strength cap it at 20 might as well  continue to increase our damage and finally   for our purposes a level 17 wizard um  you're told the dead goes up to 40 12   um you get 9th level spells so that's 14  more skeletons for 70 total skeletons um   don't ask me where you're getting all  those piles of bones outside of a graveyard   uh create undead again would as a ninth level  spell give us two mummies which are even tankier   than whites they do more damage they can even  potentially fear or petrify again thanks to action   economy not to mention how low the the dc of the  mummy's cool abilities is um the numbers just   look a lot better with skeletons unless you're  fighting something with a super low you know constitution saving throw level 17 paladin you get  fifth level spells um i'll just mention one circle   of power so it's another great defensive aura  spell uh it requires your concentration friendly   friendly creatures within 30 feet have advantage  on saves against spells and spell effects   and if succeeding on a saving throw would  cause the the creature to take half damage   then if they're within this aura they take no  damage instead so fireballs are a lot less scary   now um but you know a high-level aoe spell will  still potentially be devastating to your horde   um and of course a level five cleric or above  will also be devastating to your horde so   anyway final damage report uh right 70 skeletons  seven seven of them uh in melee doing 1d6 plus 1d4   plus 13 damage per attack 63 of them uh attacking  from range doing 1d6 plus 1d4 plus 8. um they have   52 hit points each and those within 10 feet of  view anyway have a plus 7 to their deck staves   decks save still plus you know other aura  benefits like immunity to fear and things um   final damage report like i say against  an enemy with a 10 armor class and a plus   zero to their wisdom save on average this  uh monstrosity would do 848 damage per round   and against an enemy with an 18 armor class  and plus 8 to their wisdom save it would be   421 damage per round on average still all right  final thoughts um obviously this is ridiculous and i know that um and i know like i can't  imagine anyone ever doing this right in any   d campaign again maybe a one shot where it all  takes place outside and and it's just for fun   and just to kind of do something weird and  crazy and silly and kind of see what happens um but but outside of that you know the question  is how do you like what do you do with this how   do you balance this what's the happy  medium right um maybe your dm agrees   to not overdo it with the aoe and the destroy  undead um and you agree not to go over   i mean i don't know what's a reasonable number 10  skeletons um i mean even that's kind of a lot but   but but then again you're a necromancer like this  is what you want to do this is why you're here and   and it just seems like if you try to really take  advantage of the thing that you're supposed to be   doing it's just it's untenable right um i i do  like having i i do like the idea of having um   like an elite squad of sort of melee undead  around the oath breaker paladin um you know   maybe you're maybe maybe you and your dm agree  to not summon more than seven at a time so they   can all sort of benefit and be this kind of elite  undead squad but but you can equip them with magic   items with with uh or at least with magic weapons  and armor um or maybe they scale better with you   as you level um but you can't summon as many of  them right so these undead get additional hit   point bonuses um bonuses to their armor class  bonuses to their plus to hit and maybe their   attacks can be considered magical at some point  but um you know and maybe this is based on your   intelligence modifier your proficiency bonus but  you can't get more than like three or four or five   of them something like that another idea maybe you  can't maybe you can't up cast animate dead past   i don't know uh fifth level a fifth level spell or  even fourth um the nice thing about that is that   it would sort of really motivate you and give you  good reason for using create undead so that not   only do you know you don't just have five billion  skeletons but you've got some skeletons and ghouls   and ghasts and whites and mummies and you're  kind of controlling this big horde that's cool   it's also even then might be too much right  too many minions i don't know i mean i for   seventh and eighth and ninth level spells it's not  particularly amazingly powerful um it's just that   you still have all of these challenges with having  all of these minions and hordes kind of at your   disposal slowing down combat clogging up the lanes  in in small rooms and you know all those kinds of   things that we talked about at the beginning so  i don't know there are there are challenges again   maybe maybe animate dead maybe you can only have  one casting of animate dead active at a time right   and so you can't use all of your third fourth  fifth sixth seventh eighth ninth level spell slots   to cast the same spell maybe you just have to  pick one spell slot cast it and now you don't get   to cast animate dead again until you're ready to  reassume control or you know if you cast it again   the ones you had control over before are no  longer under control i don't know something   like that um seems like it might help to kind  of make this work i would love to hear your guys   thoughts on how you might kind of try to run this  at your table or as a character to sort of make it   work logistically and from a balanced perspective  um one one final thing i guess i would say it   might be fun to run this as just like a  two-person campaign that was designed for   um like a full party right um but your dm isn't  pulling any punches i mean maybe they can't have   clerics that that can destroy undead but otherwise  sort of the gloves are off and kind of see how it   goes you might get decimated um if there's lots  of fireballs coming your way but but otherwise   you know if there weren't a ton it could be fun  it could be a challenge at least early on and   then eventually it'd probably get to a point  where it's not really challenging anymore but   there is also a potential to to play this as a  single class right you'd go six levels into wizard   and then seven levels into oath breaker palette  and it would be incredibly mad multiple ability   score dependent and it wouldn't work all that  well until you hit like level 13 but at that   level it would be pretty powerful so again maybe  for a higher level one shot or a campaign that   starts kind of in the mid range it could be  it could be fun to do but anyway that's the   episode for the week um i'd love to hear your  guys thoughts and critiques and criticism i'm   sure you've got plenty so you know let me  have it um let me know what you think and   again if you uh if you enjoy the content i hope  you will like and subscribe and comment and do   all of the things um hope you enjoyed the show i  had a lot of fun uh going down this crazy train   and uh yeah i look forward to seeing you  know what you guys might do to balance it so   until then thanks for watching love  you guys and i hope to see you soon

Channel: d4: D&D Deep Dive

Views: 136,722

Keywords: D&D, Dungeons & Dragons, dnd, D&D Optimized, Optimized, Cleric, Paladin, Oathbreaker, Necromancer, Animate Dead, Undead, Army, skeleton, broken, OP, Overpowered, zombie, guide, 5e, action economy

Id: IsrmHFKhBkI

Length: 79min 53sec (4793 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 13 2021