The Language of Creation | with Matthieu Pageau

the book language of creation cosmic symbolism in Genesis written by my brother Matt seer is finally out and so I have met you with me and we will be talking about his book about the structures the impetus for writing it and also talking about a whole bunch of other things like consciousness and how it relates to religion [Music] this is Jonathan Petro welcome to the symbolic world [Applause] hello everybody um I've been telling you for weeks we've been waiting for matches book to come out I've been telling you that it's on the verge of coming and here it is it's finally out so Mateusz book is available you can find it on Amazon and because of that I've also been waiting and hoping that Metz who's going to come back on this channel so that we can talk and so he's here with me and I'm good we're gonna talk about his book so I'm pretty excited I have been going over the for the final copies and the final edits of the book and every time I read it you know that everything kind of builds up and and and when you get I always tell people when you get to about page 100 you kind of start having seizures because everything starts to connect together and it's it's pretty it's it's it's pretty amazing so Matt you thanks for for for joining me um I'm gonna start with a basic question maybe you can tell people what it is that prompted you to write this what were you trying to accomplish what was what was the the motivation for for this book on on a commentary on the Bible well I'd say my my first motivation is an interest in symbolism and in the Bible of course but then in looking for answers to certain questions I realized that nobody out there was talking about symbolism in the way I was looking for at least so I went I took certain classes at a university level in the Department of Religious Studies and I quickly realized that it was feminism it was class about feminism hook it's not about religion it wasn't about symbolism it was about feminism and Marxism so so that pretty much led me to pretty much decide you right there that one day I was going to try to write something myself because nobody nobody else was doing it so um so basically what I realized in general is that in academia when they talk about the Bible and when they talk about subjects that are related to symbolism what they do is always the same thing they use their own categories of interpretation so they use their own lens to look at the text look the stories and they analyze it according to their own ideology in their own lens so basically they're using well it's all grounded in materialism so that's right there that that pretty much announced any possibility of understanding real symbolism because real symbolism is is not a materialistic so if you look at it through materialistic lens you might get some glimpses of what it means you might get some insights but you're always gonna be in a situation where things that are actually simple will appear extremely complex okay because when you look at the at something with the wrong lens that's usually what happens you can you can look at something that's extremely simple if you if you look at the world with certain categories and then if you look at it with the wrong categories you might get an understanding of it but it will be extremely complex and it will look I don't know artificial maybe the way is the way they say whereas if you look at it with the right lens in a look absolutely natural and it looks as if it's almost self-evident like how could I miss that that's what happens when you when you change your perspective when you use the right lens to look at the Bible all of a sudden things become kind of obvious you can almost predict what's gonna happen in a story when you have the correct lens you see what's happening you know where its leading look at it with the right kind of like if you understand science and you and you look at a projectile you can you can figure out what's gonna happen in advance you don't need to see it you know it's gonna fall you can kind of guess the distance you can even calculate it if you did you have the right information but so it's kind of the same thing here if you look at the world with the lens of symbolism you can predict certain things and in the Bible but not just in the Bible in the real world too if you start looking at the world with this particular lens you can make sense of a lot of what's going on in particularly with a lot of what's going on right now what's going on politics love what's going on at the social level and makes a lot cents if you look at it with the proper lens it's almost um I don't know how to say it's almost like it has to happen like what's happening right now even though it looks completely insane if you look at it with a proper lens it's almost like okay this is has to happen it's gonna happen and then after that there's gonna be something else so it's not it becomes less of a big deal actually you get it correctly I think yeah I think that that's what really struck me in in reading the book is that you know I have you know we both of us we kind of have these these intuitions or patterns and I have certain patterns that I work with and everything but what's amazing is that you really go into the text and you pull out what is really a such a simple pattern I mean it's very basic you know you it's a geometric like it's very it's very basic and then you it's like it's almost like you're reading it's almost mathematical right it's so precise and and it's so simple it's almost I always even when I'm reading what I was reading the book I thought I hope people in it's almost too simple for people who were looking for something you know flighty and and complicated it's like you have to enter into that simplicity and then once you see it then then after that through the whole book you just keep showing over and over here it is here it is this is how it's played itself out here and here and year and yeah it's it's it's quite astounding so so maybe you can tell us a little bit about the the basic I would say like the basic structure let's say because I know a lot of it has to do with the relationship between space and time so maybe you can give us a just a little glimpse of what the basic pattern is that you're that you that you've that you kind of entered into when you were reading the text okay well basically well I have a I have a background in mathematics and that's kind of how I looked at it that's not people usually do when they read the Bible they don't necessarily really like that but I began having pretty deep insights in the stories of the Bible when I started analyzing it like a mathematician okay so basically I was just trying to figure out what are the fundamental categories of this quality so obviously when I started reading Bible the first thing in the beginning God created heaven in earth so to me when you look at it with some kind of a mathematical lens you say okay that those are the first axiom okay so you have God we have heaven we have Hertz so those are the axioms if I derive everything from that then I've got a sound I've got a sound theory theory but I've got a sound system so that's that's the basic framework of the Bible but I also think it's the basic framework of every traditional cosmology there there ever was well any all the cosmologies I've encountered they've always been based on this simple structure heaven earth and then there is the union of heaven and earth and that it's like the cosmos happens there okay so it's like the tuple of manifestation is heaven in it and then there is a third element which is called man in the Bible or atom and that is like a consciousness that mediates between heaven and earth and that's also something I've encountered in in in almost every other tradition it's not always called with the same names but it's you can tell that it's basically the same pattern so so that's the first pattern okay I've understood that for a very long time okay because it's so it's obvious in the Bible like I said it starts with that starts like then but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's easy to figure out what all the implications are okay so it's like mathematics you can I could tell I could state the axioms of the basic systems of arithmetic right now and that doesn't mean people can figure out what are the implications that's time to figure out what the implications are when you have principles because a basic principle is something that contains huge amounts of implications but if they're it's in a simple simple form so the book you talk about how we often think that something that things are too complicated to understand but then you know you mentioned that sometimes things are actually too simple to understand yeah there's simplicity you know you could miss what it's actually about because it just seems so it's it's too contained in a seed let's say yeah exactly that's something not necessarily everybody has to deal with if you study science and mathematics you might be a little more used to that because if you have a simple scientific formula like a a simple equation that describes certain forces that's an extremely simple concept but then when you usually in practice when you use it to interpret you as a lens okay so if you have as a formula use it as a lens to interpret reality you're not trying to understand the formula you're trying to understand reality with the form you're losing in as glasses so yeah I'm putting on the some scientific theory and looking at the world and now I'm seeing all the implications of that theory and I'm seeing also if it matches with reality matches with my idea so basically that's the way I approach the Bible so sometimes the concepts are extremely simple and like you said you have to not be turned off by that at the beginning because the beginning well this is something I encounter often somebody asked me for example what is it what does the I just giving example here what is the tree mean for example I usually don't know what to say because the tree is a fundamental pattern in this in this worldview so how am I gonna explain it it's it's it's the other way around you don't give examples examples examples yeah come back to the fundamental notion of of the tree yeah you don't explain what the tree is you use the tree as a pattern of interpretation it's not the same thing it's like flipping a river because if I'm going to describe what it is I'm gonna have to use other categories to describe what it is and which category is am I going to use the categories of materialism well that's what symbolism do yeah they use the categories of materialism and then they try to interpret cymbals with those categories and the result is is sometimes interesting but yeah it misses a lot of the obvious meanings that that if you just change your your goggles thing you'll see the right the right stuff so yeah okay so heaven and earth that's the most basic categories that has a lot of implication I use those categories throughout the book I everything I say in the book derives directly from that that pattern okay and then there is another important structure is time and space yeah okay so I talked about time and space but it's not the time and space that that we can find in physics okay it's it's like an archaic concept of time and space and if I define them very simply I define them out of heaven and earth actually I say so space this is gonna be an example of a very simple definition that looks like it doesn't really mean anything but so space is when heaven and earth agree that's like the definition of what I call space and time is when they don't immediately agree okay so it's you could call it truth and true and false yeah because that's what it is true means heaven meets or agrees with earth okay it means the meaning of something matches the fact right exactly that's an easy way for input this year yeah the identity of something matches the fact of the thing so if you have if you're a scientist and you have a theory that's the heaven and then you do some experiments you're trying to see if heaven in Earth's match yeah we're trying to see if your theory is true to the fact many wise person if the fact is true to the theory so it's the definition of truth so in my book I call that space okay um and I go I talk a lot about it it's not just an anecdote and and then there's the other side is when it doesn't match so that's when you have an idea and the facts the facts of reality are not fitting with your idea that doesn't necessarily mean always that the ideas fall or that the fact is wrong it could be yeah just doesn't fit any factors yeah currently doesn't fit sometimes it can fit with some work sometimes it can fit if you get a little bit clear understanding but anyway the idea is true and false that's what I go yeah spacing time yeah I have I have a I have this image and is I tried to find one of the most basic examples that to help people understand how immediate this is is is imagine you're you're you're uh you're a child like you're you're a growing child and then you have a shirt and you wear this shirt right so you wear this shirt the shirt is space it fits you and you're wearing it and then at some point you know the child grows grows grows now the shirt it doesn't fit and so now there's there's a there's a there's a disjunct right between the the the reality of the child and his face his clothing that he wears and so the only solution to that is change change you have to change something you have to change that's why I use an example to explain why I call this change time is change when things don't fit they have to change and they do things you you explain really that's important is that we have we think that change just means things developing let's say but you really differentiate change which would be let's say the the change of the of the of the child becoming a man right and the change of changing the clothing that goes on the child one is is is something manifesting itself in its own identity and the other is is actually you have to transform into something else I get actually transformed into other you have to adjust reality to fit an identity and so it's not it's it's two different we tend to think those two are changed but you really try to to to separate those two because because if you if you think that they're the same then you you end up in a confusing and confusing place yeah well that's yeah there's a chapter in my book about exactly that and maybe one or two and that's actually pretty important because it's related to materialism yeah if you're not a materialist things have an identity and they have a body concrete reality in a nice ideal reality and then when when change means something happens where this doesn't fit anymore but if you're a materialist change doesn't mean that because there's no like things don't have an essence so it's not even about symbolism per se even if you think in terms of Aristotle or in terms of philosophy before materialism the concept of change is the same as the one I'm describing here it's the idea of transformation so if you talk about transformation you have to you have to acknowledge that there is a form there's the concept of form somewhere so as soon as you you have the concert perform you have it because of transformation or not transformation so something can become bigger and bigger without transforming yeah so that's the idea a shape can remain true to itself even if it grows in size if it doesn't it stays the same in a sense and here let's say you change a square into a circle that's a transformation if you make a square bigger it's not as transformation it's not change that's just an it a way to distinguish the the concepts here okay so basically my book I talk about like I said time and space which has not not very much anything to do with our current notions of time and space and one of the important concepts is is the fact that the time is cyclical that is extremely important it's one of the things that go into in my book a lot because it has a lot of implications we are absolutely not used to thinking in terms of this cyclical pattern we're just not used to doing it so I try to give some examples in my book of what it means of how this pattern manifests the cycle um because it's something we're not used to I don't exactly know why it's a strange thing actually because we live in cycles all the time I mean we days we have weeks we have years like our entire life is is filled with cycles it's funny that people tend to think of time just just as a linear kind of succession of moments let's say which I mean that obviously that's not how we experience it and people often say people often say things like oh Easter traditions have cyclical time in western Susan's have linear mind I think that's just wrong I draw I think that's just an example of I don't know how to say this but it's it's just an example of how academia try it is trying to kind of subvert the tradition of Christianity and by any means possible in one of those ways is to find other traditions and then use that to show that this one is lacking in some way or that's actually one of the things that turned me off for me from the University level studies about the Bible's most of it is subversion yeah to be honest it's all about we're gonna suffer Christianity or maybe maybe even Judaism traditional religion basically we're gonna subvert it we're gonna replace it with yeah but they can use they can use and that's why you hear use other religions as a weapon basically in order to destroy Christianity it's not like to actually care about about you'll say northern paganism but they care about it to the extent that they can say we'll look Odin hung from a tree and therefore Christianity is just baloney because here are other traditions where someone hangs from a tree it's like they don't they just use it as a weapon to bludgeon Christianity yes actually this is one of the read that one of the the reasons why I wanted to write my book was to get rid of some of those argumentation because they're kind of childish for example someone sees something in some other foreign religion and then they see the same pattern in Christianity and then they say oh this one must come from that one or this one a copy of that one to me that means you don't understand the pattern you don't understand the how fundamental it is how obvious it is and so to you it's just a strange thing so how did it get from I don't know how didn't get from Africa back to America or and then you have to find some weird causality because I'm very very sick no I think that this these these symbols are strange they don't make sense so if you see them it in one place and then you see them in another you have to explain them through some kind of mechanical causality but if you understand the meaning of it you don't have to do that it's obvious like the pattern of reality so of course it's going that it's going to it's going to manifest itself symbolism is going to happen you know it you just because that's the the basic structure of the world yeah because it describes exactly it describes a reality it's not because this is also one of the ways that was used to subvert acting as if it was completely arbitrary yeah so the story is the symbols they're arbitrary you know they were just made up by some person usually they could be any kind of a Marxist way they were they went Valley for power control - I don't even know I don't even know what to say you can always analyze anything in that lens anyway so it's not just religion if you want anything anybody says you can analyze it with the lens of power and you can criticize it like that so it's not it it's not even a valid criticism might be might be so anyway when you start understanding the patterns you see them in different places you see them in the Bible you also see them in different traditions I'm not I'm not trying to say that all traditions are the same or anything like that but they had a common basic framework of understanding reality and it's actually pretty amazing how how universal it was I mean you can you look at Native American traditions and you see the exact same fundamental patterns you know see heaven use the earth you see the tree you see the hoop you see all these patterns it's exactly the same patterns okay so that means it doesn't mean though there was necessarily transfer of knowledge from one to the other or possible but it means that they're just describing the reality it just happens to be not the same exact reality as the physicist is trying to describe but in the end what's and what's interesting in your book and it's something that that's been kind of floating around and in different discussions online in my discussion with John Peterson and Brett Weinstein and everything is that is that in your book you you you end up containing science within your symbolic framework because you talk about this problem of theory in fact right so maybe you can talk about that because I think that's something that enjoyed that will interest people oh yeah this is also another reason the idea of reconciling science and religion is obviously very important to me as I think it is for a lot of people because it's it's like a nine a m-- because it's like our past doesn't fit with our our present and future yeah and if there's something unsettling about that I don't want to think that all of our ancestors were a bunch of idiots I don't want to think like that okay so I'm be be the idea that I want to reconcile these two universes it's just something that's in me I don't even know where it comes from it bothers me just I don't want to separate from the past I want to join things together so the idea of reconciling science and tradition or religion has been always in my head since I was a teenager and I got interested in evolutionary theory at first it was to debate it or confront it as a Christian and then after a while at one point I said okay I'm gonna read Darwin's book I'm just gonna read it I'm gonna stop just assuming it's wrong and I'm gonna read it so I read it and I thought it was really interesting and I saw in no way how that contradicted my ideas about God or anything like that so Camille a data had no contradiction I first did but then slowly I started to see that I had a a weird glimpse at at one point I could say maybe a kind of a spiritual experience where I was trying to reconcile these these worldviews so let's say evolution and creation okay and then I had this weird glimpse where I saw how if you include the theory of science in the evolutionary process then everything changes exactly almost becomes like a religious worldview okay and this is one of the reasons why we're interested in Jordan Peterson first of all you're the one who first talk to me about Jordan Peterson but then I became really interested when he started talking in these terms because that can occur in size with some of the glimpses I had when I was trying to reconcile creation and well now I wouldn't even use the word creationism anymore you see creation and what modern scientific knowledge I had this glimpse where I saw that the whole problem is the scientific theory is not included in the worldview of the scientist so the scientist is not putting his own theory it's like he's separating his theory from his from the world it's like more completely it's as if his theory doesn't actually exist in the world like it's it's he doesn't think about like he doesn't even it says it's a blind spot is what it is yeah at the same time I understand this is where the power of materialism comes from it's like I don't even know how to say it's like a denial of spiritualities the theory that the scientist has is part of the spiritual realm yeah I'm careful when I use these terms because I know people will interpret it you know it's not material yeah your theory about the world is not material hey so no matter how you look at it it's not material so because of that they they act like the theory itself is not part of the universe and has no influence on the universe but it obviously does I mean if you're a scientist and you discover something that explains reality and then reality changes it's not it's not a weird metaphor or some weird new agey thing you're a scientist you have a theory you experiment you show that it works and then you transform the world you change the world with your understanding of the world so tell me again how your theory is not in your model dealers so they missing their because when you understand in the world the world you influence the world you don't even have to look at it at a quantum level or anything like that you can look at a normal level the scientist understands he makes the connection with reality then he gains power in the world yeah not me sure that in particular individual but humanity using that knowledge gained power controlled in control over the world and understanding of the world so why had why is it your theory part of one of the forces that's in the world why isn't it part of the your model so anyway so that was the glimpse that I had at that moment and it kind of blew my it in my mind I don't know how to say and it took me maybe 20 years to deal with that yeah it's how to deal with that idea is that just an idea including the theory in the in the model yeah so I guess my book is kind of maybe the culmination of that it a took a lot of twists and turns and finally it's not the subject per se of the book but it permeates the book would say yeah my understanding or my questioning about that problem is what led me to understand the traditional cosmology in a certain way and in the end what I see is that the traditional cosmology is that what I'm describing it's a universe in which the scientists has included his theory in the in the universe and has included his model of the universe in the universe and even when I just say that you can see that that is how traditional knowledge works because if you look at ancient patterns it's always you have a cosmos and then you have a mini cosmos and then you have another meaning it's like a like a fractal yes putting a mirror in front of another mirror it's exactly what happens knowledge works like this is really I think this is really for the book this is really to me one of the glorious aspects of your book is that you know we probably talk about let's say microcosms you know it mean people have been talking about the notion you know that man is a microcosm for you know for centuries since Plato or whatever but but but would you are able to do in your book it which is amazing is you actually show it you you would actually creature it even in diagrams like you create these these diagrams that are that are fractal that move into each other and then you do it with the story then you kind of show how he with you know within a story you know the different aspects of the story are many versions of the whole story and it's I mean that is just to me that's a it's a totally false like we say like you're really able to to show it because it's easy to talk about it we kind of we have an intuition that that's how the world works sometimes but but you're able to really kind of show it in uh in terms of out but I'll do is I'll edit I'll put some diagrams like just to show people at least they'll see the diagrams on the video of how you're able to kind of embed these these parts into each other yeah that's something I want to mention with regard to my book one of the ways that I dealt with the problem of that I was describing at the beginning of our discussion um where the idea that when people try to understand symbolism or interpret the Bible or a traditional story they're using the lens of science they're using the lens of different disciplines academic disciplines that are all grounded in materialism because that's the world we're in right now so um so one of the ways I try to not to help the reader look through the different lens is by using images diagrams because so what happens I'm not a neuropsychologist or anything like that but there's a part of our mind that it when it uses visual images it doesn't interpret them the same way as language so um I found that it was possible to get the person to look through the lens of certain categories by using pictures instead of words because when you use word the person interprets the language with with their own categories so if I use a certain word so for example this is something I talk about in my book if I say the word heaven well most people will interpret it with a current lens and they live that they'll say I'm talking about the sky right and the atmosphere so if I use the word heaven I have to be very careful to remind the reader that I'm not talking about the atmosphere right oh but the problem it's OK for a couple of terms like that but when all the words don't at some point every single word that you're using it has to be reinterpreted it becomes a little bit painful right it's like every word I have to say when I say this actually means this I don't mean what you think and when I say this I mean this it would be simple so what I did was I use pictures a lot of them there's a lot of images in my book and it's always the same pattern I really repeat repeat the purpose of that is for the reader to kind of get this imprinted in their in their brain the basic fundamental patterns of symbolism so you have the hierarchy you have the cycle you have the idea of heaven and earth write it like a duality of heaven and earth so that pattern is repeated I don't know how many times like maybe over a hundred the reason is is because I want that diagram that patron kept ya imprinted in your mind so that you don't think about it anymore and you just slowly start to look like glasses you don't know you're wearing your glasses you're looking through them you're not looking at them you're looking through them so if I repeat the same pattern the patterns kind of becomes your your glasses right your lens so that's the reason why you've so many so many diagrams so basically I use the same patterns and I use them to interpret different parts of the Bible stories the story of Cain and Abel the story of Noah the story of the fall a dominions a serpent at the tree and all that so I reuse always the same patterns in every single story to interpret so basically they did is that they're all based on on simple definitions except we're we're so not used to thinking of that that I couldn't just give the definition and then talk about it as if it was acquired because it takes a little bit of to intuitively acquire this way of thinking so there you go that's why you have so many images that but that's also why I'm telling I tell people like make it to like paid 100 right at the beginning you're building like it's a minute it's been more of an effort yet you're building you're building and then once you reach when you reach some of the examples that you give I say page 100 I'm not even sure if that's the that the right place maybe even a bit before and then all of a sudden things start to click like you you I could I you know and it's funny because you and I we were your probably the person who think the most like me let's say in the world I would say but even though despite that as I was reading your text it was there was really a magical aspect to it like it was really she I could feel it changing some of my perception like I could feel it transforming some of my of the way that I view the world and and and kind of fusing choosing things together in my mind and so I think it's it's definitely it's evidently um yeah it definitely has something magical about it like it's a I think that people reading this book it's if you read it honestly it'll be difficult to reach the end without being changed in terms of your frame of you like in terms of the way you see the universe yeah and of course the idea always is not to become insane or anything that maybe I should give that warning because I see it happens when you change your your lens you take your lens you can go insane because what happens and then you try to communicate those ideas to people around you and then they have no clue what you're talking about and they look at you like you're insane so that's probably one of the key factors in becoming insane is when you start saying things and people around you're acting like you're you're saying gibberish so just fair warning don't go insane again fair warning don't go insane while reading my book do you think in those terms exactly that's hilarious oh man and I think that one of the things that one of the things that is is really going to be surprising to people that you really you really don't shy from any subject like you you you talk about time and space and about society and about cycles of time but then you talk about human beings you talk about sexuality about taboos about you know all the weird stuff a lot of the weird stuff in the Bible that you know about Giants and fallen angels and all this stuff in the Bible that is so weird people they look at it and they just think it's absolute insanity but you you kind of bring it all together and I think that that's something that people are really going to are really going really going to open their eyes like it's the last part of the book especially I think it's really going to surprise people in terms of how not only talking about all that weird stuff but talking about it in a way that helps is that we're what's happening now again it's it's showing us exactly where we are now what is the all this weird stuff that's happening exactly all the inversions all the upside down world it's like you make total sense of that especially in the last part of the book where you you start talking about those subject so I think it's going to be yeah that's all I'm really I'm really you know what I'm also excited is to to to to start to see people talk about it and start to see people discuss it on on on social media so it'll be interesting to see people kind of bring things up and and see how it how it morphs into different things yeah I'm curious to see also what the reaction will be because I have no idea if it will fly or not I mean I've been doing this for about four years so I've completely immersed myself in this way of thinking so to me these things have become absolutely obvious yeah so I don't first comments like on the first day that it was out it was so funny because I didn't even know that it was out because I think it was kind of you put it up on on WizIQ on Kindle right yeah and I didn't even know he was out and someone else on Twitter said I've been reading it all day that's not like to book it out instead I've been reading it all day and it's exactly everything I was hoping for then I got another comment someone telling me he's saying that yeah their mind was constantly being blown and so every comment obviously every comment that I've gotten has been more than just oh it's good it's been like okay this is really changing really changing the way I view the world so I think that at least for people who are who cool read it honestly it's going to it's going to have the effect that we're hoping it's gonna have yeah one of the things I want to say is that I'm not trying neither to convince anyone of anything I'm just describing something that I understood I'm not trying to convince anyone this is also why I don't shy away from subjects because I'm not trying to I'm not even trying to reconcile the ideas that are in the Bible with our current way of understanding I'm not even trying to do that I'm just trying to describe my understanding of these stories and sometimes it gets a little weird but the weirdness is not it's not absurd it makes it's a weirdness that makes sense it's only a question of okay we don't see the word like that right now or we don't say it like that anymore maybe in the past they did at least it helps us to reconcile the past a little bit instead of thinking that our ancestors were a bunch of fools you can at least say okay they they weren't concerned with the same things as we are we're interested in technical knowledge we've advanced really really far in technical knowledge and we and we have brilliant insights into that but we've also lost certain a certain kind of understanding that our ancestors obviously had and yeah it's it's it's important to not make light of the fact that our worldview is completely different from that of the best there's something eerily wrong about that we have to figure out some ways to bring them together like I said I don't try to do that in my book what I try to do in my book in terms of science in terms of the relationship between tradition and science is just to give a way out to to this like the spiritual understanding of the world just get away from out from under the foot of science okay because science has been crushing crushing down on traditional knowledge for a long time and I'm not complaining or anything like that I love science I've always loved science I'm just noticing that religionists is taking less and less space the problem with that is it will be replaced by something else okay and that thing is gonna be weird yeah okay if you don't if we don't understand what's happening that something very strange is gonna happen it's happening now weird stuff is happening is because no but it's already happened it happened we had a cycle of it in the 20th century I mean communism and Nazism was exactly that was exactly a space in which boy the materialist worldview you know that something was filling filling up the void of spirituality in in in the world and so we kind of we I mean we killed 100 million people now we're taking our breath but it's we haven't dealt with anything it's like we're basically just taking our breath from those hundred million deaths in the 20th century and if people think it's not coming back and unless we can unless unless we can reconcile these things it's going to come back there's no and like you said it's already happening like we look around I always tell people like we are sitting we are standing in via our Germany right now like you know create by my Germany times 100 is where we are and so what comes after that you know it's not pretty no yes so we have to figure out what what happened because traditional knowledge is is not it's not rat it's not the same as experimental or rational knowledge and when I say that I'm not saying that it's irrational because it's not but it's a kind of knowledge that's been passed down it's it's passed the test of time okay that's not nothing that's a big deal it means it works that's what it means it means there's something in it that fits with reality now it doesn't necessarily fit with our scientific understanding of reality but maybe it fits with some aspects of reality that we're not aware of so we should never just throw away ancient knowledge like that as if it was nothing yeah something that's been around for thousands of years might contain some information that you don't know as a modern person yeah and especially as we move and this is something that we've talked about and it's something that's kind of been popping up more and more online and any different discussion as we move towards these these movements in cognitive science and this movement towards trying to understand and human consciousness we are we're seeing little glimpses of a connection where as we talk about cognitive science it there is this notion that you you then you once again you have to fit cognition in the world like cognition has to be a a phenomena in the world it has to be part of the universe are our thoughts have to be part of the universe are our you know our understanding has to be part of the universe and when that happens all of a sudden some of the structures we are seeing some of the structures that you talk about in your book popping up even in scientific discourse so that's really fascinating yeah well yeah we were talking about before we started recording the you sent me a link to a yes Sam herons of all people he shared on Twitter this discussion with Hoffman I think his name is which I think it's often a I'll put a link in the description a podcast where he talks about the science of cognition John Hoffman John Hoffman and how basically he positing a theory that consciousness is a constitutive element of the universe which I mean it's like that's what we're saying you know we're try this what were that's where we're going yeah you people so there there's like bridges being created right now I would say between traditional knowledge and scientific technical knowledge and I think it's great I don't know where it's good exactly how it's gonna happen but it's clearly there's things are happening things are coming together so I don't bully my book will help a little bit in some aspect of that maybe to understand religion or this perspective in its own in its own way not in the way not interpreting it through a different lens interpret trying to adopt that world you see the world through that worldview instead of just analyzing it from a different perspective and looking at it because there's always a little bit of a cynical undertone to that when you look at religion with a lens that it's a matter what lens you use if you use sociology or anything like that it's like even theirs I was a little bit of an undertone of cynicism it's normal because part of you has to look at it like it's not true or like it say something wrong with it because it doesn't quite fit your categories so you have to like deal with what doesn't fit in a way that's kind of a little bit cynical so it's like I'm gonna accept this part of it but this part of it it's just that's just we're not gonna go back to that or we're not gonna even try to understand it because that's just nonsense or it's just the word yeah see that's that's the thing I mean if you're a scientist and you look at a phenomenon and then you see an anomaly not supposed to say oh I'm gonna I'll you know look at that it's stupid no you're supposed to say whoa maybe my theory is it doesn't account for that anomaly I have to change my theory to account for that anomaly because saying that an anomaly just isn't important it if that's fine for a while but then you know what happens the science is dealt with our problem how many times you can put the anomaly under the rug for a while and it always comes back to take you down in the end so it's the same thing when studying traditional knowledge the anomalies are there to tell you hey there's something you don't understand not not the other way around so that's my that's my perspective honey all right guys so so view the book is out it's on Amazon you can you can find it at your different do whatever country you're in go to Amazon put Monsieur Poirot in the search or the the language of creation and and buy the book leave a review as well where do we're trying to push it now and you know hopefully we can we can attract a little bit of attention to it and this is the place so we're going to be talking about the book once in a while on the on this channel and I want to foster your discussion as well we'll try to find spaces for all of you guys to to discuss the book and talk about the ideas and we'll try to find ways to do that another thing is that some people have been asking me how is it that I can encourage material because materia it's kind of he's not he doesn't have an online presence you know he he has a slightly more hermit personality and so he's not online on social media for sure so what we're going to do is I'm going to put a link to my tears patreon account he's gonna open a patreon account and his paypal so if people want to support what he's doing financially then we'll have a way for you to do that and so stay tuned and hopefully mightor will also come back because while he was finishing his book he said no I don't want to make any videos you know I just have to focus I need to finish this thing but now it's finished so I'm hoping that we'll see more of him on my channel as well so I don't know we'll see about that I have to find ways to coax him to continue to come on to the channel so it's alright so people stay tuned and thanks for thanks for watching all right buh-bye hey if you enjoyed this content in our exploration of symbolism get involved I love to read your comments in the comment section below please go ahead and share this on social media to all your friends and also please consider supporting us financially on patreon you'll find the link to the patreon page in the description below

Channel: Jonathan Pageau

Views: 81,088

Keywords: Matthieu Pageau, jonathan pageau, Jordan Peterson, Symbolism, Old Testament, Cognition, cognitive science, religion, christian symbolism, christian symbology, religious skepticism, the symbolic world, biblical symbolism, occult symbolism, science and religion, science versus religion, religious symbolism, what is symbolism

Id: OwEqL4-ISkc

Length: 48min 25sec (2905 seconds)

Published: Wed May 30 2018