Matthieu Pageau: Symbolism & Scripture | a rare conversation

hello everybody it is my delight to uh to have Matthew pejo joining us today how are you doing Matthew I'm doing good it's good to meet you and thanks for making those uh those videos about uh about my book that you did a while ago so thanks for that all right it's the least that I could do man that was such an inspirational book to me and so many other people really helped so many people see the scriptures and see reality so much more clearly and it's inspired so much um and I know that uh there was a few videos of you with Jordan Peterson around the time that the book came out in 2018 uh conversations with your brother Jonathan um and then the book was published and then it seems like Matthew had a Vanishing and we didn't see or hear from him for several years and now you're re-emerging here in 2022 conversations with Jordan Peterson again and uh several others so uh I just gotta say on behalf of me and you know the listeners and the uh people that care about you and your work uh it's good to see you it's really good to see you again yeah well I guess I'm back because now I have new things to say basically that's the reason why I'm back so basically I said I said what I wanted to say in my book and then I I just decided I was gonna understand what I didn't you know that's how that's how it works for me yeah I said it's like I dropped I dropped what I what I thought was worth sharing you know and then I I went back to trying to understand things that I didn't understand so that's what I've been doing and I mean it's hard to do that if you're engaged in social media and things like that it's hard to uh focus it takes a lot of a time and uh it takes a lot of brain space you know to be dealing with different people you know it's it's a choice that you got to make you you can do it it's a good thing I mean but you could decide not to not to do that which is pretty much what I what I what I did and even recently I decided maybe I wanted to make maybe a couple of videos just the idea of making a video uh has kind of um stolen my my focus you know so it was gonna happen it's probably I'm not gonna do that I'm just gonna go back to uh concentrating on writing you know a lot of uh followers and listeners I'm not used to that usually someone who's in a successful author we usually have an Instagram account and a Twitter account and a Facebook and a YouTube and a podcast and for some people it's it's natural to engage with others you know for some people it's natural for some people it's um it gives them energy too but for me it's the opposite it drains a lot of energy for me to uh interact with with people I don't really know I mean I can easily interact with my close friends and things like that that's not the same but interacting with people uh it just drains my energy and it just takes my energy away from uh what I what I want to work on you know people do care a lot about you so you know just I guess one of the common questions that I'll ask you is you know how are you how has it been you know in the last couple of years um and okay I mean I'm I'm pretty resilient I've had some some interesting experiences uh that has led me to understand what I do understand now that the new information or the new insights that I have but I mean I've had some struggles but um it's helped me to understand a lot of things so I'm grateful for it now even when it was happening I'm pretty I'm pretty tough to be honest like internally it's not really much can can break me you know what I mean it's so you know sometimes negative things turn into positives is pretty much what happened so uh it's like right now I mean I I live literally live in a in a York right now how is it your life what's that like it's great actually I love it it's uh I I wanted to uh at one point build some um some greenhouses with someone I know so I started that but then it turns out uh didn't work out with that person uh basically I guess he was trying to steal from me honestly that that's what happened um so then I I realized and then I you know it it didn't end well so um and then after that uh yeah a series of things happened and uh I ended up uh living in a yard but I mean that's what I wanted in the first place I wanted to live on that land and then work when greenhouses um and then because it didn't turn out well with that person uh I had to move you know so I bought a small piece of land like at forested place and I rebuilt my whole yard and everything um and now I know it's great now I'm really happy to to have that oh what's the difference between like like living in a rectangular space and then living in a circular one yes there actually is a big difference uh you gotta live it to see it I don't I don't know how to explain it but definitely since I've been living in like a round space it's definitely has an influence on your on your thinking and on your uh you know your mood and your your mind and your your ideas and also it's it's not just the roundness of it it's definitely something though I I don't know how to describe it but there's no doubt when I enter that space it's not the same as it's in the house okay but there's also um the way it's constructed there's a there's like a window above right that's I don't know if you're familiar with oh the center yeah the Apex right yeah there's like a dome and it's like a transparent Dome at the top um that's where all the light comes in so it's you have natural light basically it's just always natural light and that's not the same too it's really not the same as uh light bulbs you it's not the same mood it's not the same um I don't again I don't know how to describe it it's just an experience you know uh and there's something about just it causes you to see nature a lot more like now I know like I can tell what temperature it is now just just by feel and I could I always know what time it is too now I always know what time it is I don't need to look at watch I always know because I'm used to it now I see I know where the sun is like because the the way it's constructed the Sun goes into the top and then it it almost creates a clock it almost creates a clock in the in the yurt if you know you could you see where the sun lands and then it moves so it's weird but now I'm I I guess more in touch with uh nature I guess it just happened and also like now I notice a lot of things that I didn't notice before because I'm basically living surrounded by animals and uh a lot lots of weird things happening in the in the forest uh during the night sometimes there's some weird stuff happening it happens often actually like I wake up and then I I feel some some like energy you know I'm excited for some reason I don't know why and then all of a sudden the animals they they start screaming all around like wolves and coyotes and owls all of a sudden like all of them at once and the weird thing is I wake up before it happens it that's not what wakes me up like I wake up and I I feel like you know excited or something I feel energy and then and then I know it's like I know it's gonna happen I don't know how to describe it it's just it just is I know it's gonna I know there's energy in the air okay and then all the animals all of a sudden go nuts the wolves and like I just said no no I'm used to it I mean because it happens at least maybe twice a week or so right in the middle of the night there's like a like an orchestra of animals all of a sudden it happens often it's it's not that weird it really it just happens when you live in the in the woods at one point you start noticing certain things yeah so it seems like you're in a space I mean like your walls are canvas cloth right yeah well it's a modern it's like a more of a modern yurt where it's made of modern materials so it's um yeah it's it's canvas but it's not it's not um textile you know it's like uh I don't know what it is exactly but it's a kind of a rubbery kind of uh more like a tent you know um it's uh it's not cloth but I mean it's it has the same you have me thinking about like what it's like to actually be inside of there like so you have light emitting from the center of like this circular place you know like do you feel like you're like to use your terminology uh more engaged more engrossed in the realm of time or of that oh yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah I'm really really aware now of the temperature the humidity uh you know when the Sun rises when it goes down I know the cycles of the moon now I always know what what cycle with the Moon is in which cycle like which phase of the cycle I mean because I see it now it's like now I notice you know how how cold it is at night you know I never used to know that like usually when you're in a house you don't know that it's cold outside during the night you're just sleeping you know you got you got a good heating um oh yeah I got I have to wake up in the middle of the night to uh during the winter I have to like let's say maybe wake up at least once a night to make a fire uh even now like it's it's uh abnormally cold right now for this uh this month and uh yeah I gotta get up it's like three and make a fire you gotta do it or else it reaches like below zero temperatures wow so but you get used to it it's you you can get used to anything yeah it's actually there's something good about it when like when you get up in the middle of the night this is actually when I have a lot of my mo more uh profound insights you know it's when I get up in the middle of the night like at 3am is a good time to to think I don't know why but that's it's just the fact that I've noticed it's just like my experience and then you you have a clearer understanding of of uh simple things and sometimes I think about you know stories from the Bible and certain things I'm trying to understand and then when I wake up uh in the middle of the night to like build a fire or something like that this is usually when I have some some insights then I have to write it down because you always think you're going to remember but usually you don't actually sometimes you have some glimpses of really good ideas you know again an understanding that you don't have uh before and then you think oh I don't have to write this down I'm going to remember this is like really profound stuff yeah and then like two days later you don't remember it but now I know now I always write it down I was right always always yeah so it's interesting that you get such clear thoughts during the realm of sleep and and the Darkness or the the time of Dreams um yeah yeah you don't know yeah those type of things that you swear you'll never forget it's interesting how you can wake up and just have like a figment like a phantom of like I think I think had a really good idea but I don't remember what that was yeah yeah but if you if you yeah you write it down I mean I think there's a reason why I mean monks used to do that right they used to get up in the middle of the night and uh like sing songs and things like that they used to have like services in the middle of the night I mean there's there's a reason they knew what they were doing and there was a reason why they did that definitely something when you wake up in the middle of the night your brain is not functioning the same way it's more clear I don't know why but it's just my experience I've seen I noticed that Matthew what would you say is like a like a day in the life for Machu pajo in the yurt life uh there's a lot of chores to be honest yes there's a lot of chopping of wood there's a lot of getting water well it's true it's it's like when you notice at one point that life is about eating sleeping uh getting water we use a lot of water like humans use a lot of water I'm amazed at sometimes at how much water I use because when you have to go get it you have to go fill up some containers and bring it you know you notice how much water you use and it's a heck of a lot to be honest I I never would have imagined how much water we use and I'm not saying that in it like an ecological sense of wasting water or anything like that it's just I never would have thought I used so much water like we use water for everything you know like you gotta clean dishes you gotta you gotta cook it's so much water that you use like you don't notice it when you have a tap you know it's not a big deal you just put water in but when you gotta go get it and you gotta carry it you're like man I get so much water I was like you get big jugs and you're I got enough for a few days but no you got enough for one day you know what I mean and also the same thing chopping a lot of wood I'm always chopping wood now it's like I'm getting good at it actually um but I mean these are all activities that you can you can do and think you know this it's not like it it doesn't use my mind to do these things this is the good part of of it you know you can I think that's what we're supposed to do oh we're supposed to be engaged in like manual work and at the same time always be reflecting you know that's yes that's my opinion I think we've lost that because we most of us have jobs where we have to use our mind but we're not using our mind for really deep thinking you know we're using our mind to do these tasks right and then so we might think it's better to have an intellectual job we might think that but in a way it's not because your mind is being used for the task while on the other hand if you're doing manual stuff um you can your mind can can still operate you know you can still think the manual work becomes good for an in someone who's interested intellectual Pursuits yes yes I totally agree so there's times where like I I'm in the office right and I'm supposed to be doing all this computer work tons and tons of computer work right and then I'll just stop and I'll go wash dishes or I'll go like like with the little Pinchers and pick up garbage around the parking lot or something and a lot of my co-workers they'll get frustrated and say like Oh Derek you know why aren't you working you're not typing stuff on your keyboard and it's like you don't understand like I am yeah but I I need to be doing these things in order to have clear thoughts or have thoughts kind of settle upon me are you a programmer uh no so I do uh Community work so I work with a non-profit um but just all of the communication is on the computer most of the programs and the tools that I use are computer-based yeah yeah it's all computer yeah computer related and then so you eventually get like these square eyes and your brain kind of turns into this fog when you're like immediately doing direct tasks on the computer and so I'll try to break that up and I'll go you know proverbial chop wood um or I'll go work in the garden or you know try to do these things that are simple laborious yeah Gardens garden is good gardening is good if you wanna like the best the best work that you can do for that kind of stuff is gardening it's the best it's like a relaxing you know that was one of the questions oh one of the feedback I wanted to give you from reading your book language of creation was um so if it feels like it's a very um spiritually intellectual challenging read and it and it can be a very intellectual experience but then I found that unless I try to find ways of engaging with it in the material world um that I started to get kind of afraid in my thinking and so like when I first read it a few years ago I started uh volunteering in a community garden and I was trying to find ways of applying things so like I made the garden bed into the shape of um you know the axis so like uh a vertical and pathway and a horizontal pathway kind of like a shape of a cross and try to do like these circular arrangements and Spirals and it was like uh but all the while engaging with you know soil and sowing seeds and seeing them grow and then seeing them Decay and seeing the cycle take place uh within an ordered space and I found that it was actually in that space that most of my insights through reading your work sunk in or veiled themselves so I just I don't know if there's there's other advice that you could give readers or experiences that you have um for like how to engage the material that you present your book yeah well it's about it's not easy but it's it took me a long time to start thinking like that honestly yeah it took me years it's like at one point I saw that what was in the Bible didn't fit with our current world view you know it didn't fit so I just decided that I had to more that I wanted to um ReDiscover like how did they think you know what what was their background of their of their mind from which these stories were developed so I mean it's a lot of it is it's about thinking really basically like I was I was thinking a lot about what what do humans do you know we eat we eat we breathe these are simple things but we take them for granted a whole lot I mean I started I remember when I started to think I think at the right level of it I was just thinking about eating and I was like man eating is is insane we we take some matter and we make our bodies like we we create our own bodies with this matter I mean how crazy is that I mean when you really think about it you know and when you realize that that's what life is all about you know it's about integrating the world into yourself you know and then expressing some some new insights from from from your existence you know it's it we don't it's like you got to go back to the basics you know you gotta go back to one of the things I was doing too which was hard is to get back to your experience you know I I started thinking in terms of just what do I observe and then what I observed was you know the sun coming out of the ground going up falling down going into the Earth and for sure the ancient peoples of the world used to be amazed at that stuff and used to try to understand what it was I mean what is this fire that comes out of the ground it goes up into heaven then it goes to like a maximum and then it goes back down and it falls back down into the Earth and like what does it do when it's in the Earth what does the Sun do is it going on a journey or something is it dying is it resurrecting you know what I mean yeah now we have an explanation for these phenomena oh it's gravity blah blah blah you know the Earth gravity okay we can explain it technically but that's not how the our ancestors used to interpret it for sure so so what what how did they interpret it and these are the kinds of thoughts I was I was having when I was writing my book like I was trying to get myself into um an ancient way of thinking and actually one thing I I've been doing for a very long time way before I wanted to write my book I used to do some exercises where I used to just use my imagination and just imagine that I was um Like A Primitive man like a prehistoric man okay I used to do that uh um this is a very long time ago and I used to just imagine you know I was I didn't have any tools I didn't have anything and I was just trying to survive in the wild and I used to imagine you know what what what do you have to do to survive you know what do you have to do and then it just put my money to a really really simple uh way of interpreting reality because we we don't see the world how our ancestors used to at all for sure we don't so how can we understand what they were what they were talking about in ancient writings if we don't try to at least put ourselves in a frame of an ancient human you know but then my my the result of these exercises was to see at least for me that's what happened to realize that their ancient way of thinking in a way is more profound than ours you know because we have a tendency of thinking oh in the past people were dumb you know they had superstitions and they they didn't really understand reality and they you know like what I was saying before the sun comes out of the ground then goes back into it usually people would interpret that like oh they didn't have the correct interpretation of the phenomenon you know they they're we're really on a globe and we're really the Earth is returning around the sun and the all the other stuff is just Illusions you know just like a false perspective basically so why would we want to understand why the Sun comes out of the ground and goes back into it when it's all Just an Illusion right you know what I mean like it's but that's not that what wasn't the end result of my uh thinking in the end I saw they interpret that phenomenon and they in interpreting phenomenon you end up finding the Deep patterns of of the of the universe it doesn't matter that much if it's the technical explanation fits or not it doesn't matter that much because it refined their thinking into something that was Universal and applicable at all scales so the technical explanation isn't really that important because in looking at the sun going around you can understand the pattern of a cycle and once you understand that then that is a true pattern that manifests in many places so it doesn't matter if it's gravity doing it or something else you still you could still understand the pattern so like let's say in the in the Book of Ecclesiastes um he's talking about just the cycle pattern right in the Book of Ecclesiastes he's just talking about the problem of you know things rising and falling rising and falling and seeing all the implications of that like you know what's the purpose of life if everything you do gets destroyed you know that was his reflection and he probably got those Reflections by observing the sun in the in the you know the Cycles so what does it matter if it's gravity that causes this you know this this manifestation it doesn't you can still see the pattern you can still understand the nature of this manifestation this cycle so in the Ecclesiastes he comes up with all the conclusions of what what is the implication of living in a cycle what is the implication of that you know you're born you die that's like nothing happens really in the end you know and he you can do that with anything you know you can see the cycle pattern in in anything so you see what I'm saying it's like there's a technical level to reality that is not as important as people think it's important when you do science and when you do engineering stuff like that but it's not really important as a human that's who we are you know understanding the technicality of how things work is that really important I mean uh like we're talking about before gardening I know if you experience gardening is it really important to know to biology and all the technical you know molecular explanations of how the plant grows no it's not it's really not it changes nothing to the gardening actually you know if you know if you're going to be really good at gardening and know absolutely nothing about molecules and atoms and stuff like that you see what I'm saying like there's different levels you can still put a you could still put a seed in the ground and it sprouts up and you see you can still engage with all of that way you engage with it and this it's like there's different levels and we we have a tendency to think that the bottom level is more real than the upper levels scientific technical know how it works level yeah or for example like uh saying that the atom is made of molecules and atoms somehow that's more real than the level of the plant itself that has its own laws and rules and you know it develops and things but it doesn't matter what it's how the atoms work at that level you know it's like if you're familiar with computers we can use the analogy of a computer it's actually a really good analogy you know you can be a programmer computer programmer and know zero about the hardware you understand what I'm saying it's like you're you're a programmer you know zero about how the computer works yeah yeah and no no uh like the mechanics of the computer you know the wires and uh you know the you don't you don't need to know that level and you can still be a programmer so isn't that interesting though so it's not true that these levels have to be um connected to each other in your knowledge you can know you can here's another uh the opposite the flip side is also true you can know exactly how a computer works technically physically and not know how to program these levels are not as connected as we might imagine they're not actually they're separate because they're at different levels the computer the the programmer doesn't need to know that there's different kinds of computers anyway I mean you could make different kinds of computers you can make computers with uh you know vacuums like a tablet yeah you can make you can make a computer with gears they used to do that in the old days you know they made basically calculating machines just with out of gears and stuff like that mechanical literally mechanical uh calculators so but your program doesn't depend on this level you know yeah you can have different kinds of computers and you still have the same program that runs on different computers it's the same program so it's similar you know in life you have you have a technical level that's like mechanical almost like a computer like the physics of it but but the scientists and most people like that are trying to explain the upper levels always with the lower levels but there's no there is no guarantee that these two levels are connected in the way that they're trying to make it seem that is just like the program is not connected to the hardware of the computer maybe reality is made in the same way there's a level of technical Atomic stuff or whatever molecules and it is it really that connected to the next level which is let's say for example life you know living creatures how they interact with each other and how they uh function like like a social level maybe not connected at all you know maybe this level of atoms and molecules could be totally different could be made of other material and it would still be the same rules functioning above it just like a computer program doesn't need the same always the same computer hardware so this is kind of the stuff I start to understand at one point this was helpful for me because it led me away from a certain way of thinking that we're used to because it's you know we see it around us because of the dominance of science yeah Matthew let me ask you this so can we make the same mistake on the other side where we're you know we're focusing too much on the like as you're describing the lower level technical mechanical Atomic level can you focus too too much on the higher level above life let's say um and what would that be how would you describe that well I think you could do that for sure yeah yeah I mean I think I don't want to take too many Digs at Theology and philosophy because I mean I have respect for people who who do that and I also have respect uh for scientists by the way I have respect for biologists and chemists and all that stuff I don't want to like it's not about that it's about they don't have a monopoly that's the thing okay I mean I I have respect for those um those areas of knowledge but I don't like it when they think they have a monopoly and that they it at their level encompasses the whole thing because it doesn't so like for example that's what I was going to say like let's say philosophy and theology these are really abstract levels of you know you're talking about being you know like metaphysics like Aristotelian metaphysics or you're talking about being and uh you know all these categories that are very abstract and in theology same thing you know you're talking about God being uh omnipresent you know and uh but these are really really high level categories that are extremely abstract I mean is that really useful I mean is it really useful for human human existence and human well-being to know that God is omnipotent and um how do you say that in English omniscient is it really useful and in my experience um sometimes you know I have some interpretations of certain stories in the Bible and and some people come up to me and they're like you know and they give another interpretation based on the idea that God is omnipotent and usually what they say doesn't bring any insights to this story it doesn't like it doesn't the fact that you tell me God is omnipotent as a principle by the way I'm not saying God is an omnipotent I'm just saying that is such a high level of abstraction right like you're dealing with some Prince some ideas that are extremely high level like extremely abstract and then you you kind of separated them from reality and even separated them from the stories in the Bible so when you read the stories in the Bible you see God acting in a certain way you know you see God changing changing his mind you see God uh doing things and then repenting God is repents in the Bible and many many times so even when he does the flood he repent it said you repent from he repents from creating uh the human and then he says to repent from doing the flood okay so but then at the illogion is going to come to me and say God is omnipotent he got his own omniscient so he's not really changing his mind he already knew that he was going to do it and then change it blah blah blah blah blah okay I'm not saying it's not true but what I'm saying is your high level idea of God doesn't help me understand this story it doesn't in fact it hinders me a little bit in understanding the story because you've got this really high ideal and when I read the story it doesn't even fit with what you're saying the story itself doesn't fit with these high high level ideas you can make it fit through all kinds of you know manipulations and saying it right you can say he already knew that he was going to change his mind and then he he would so he didn't really change his mind and okay but that doesn't help me it really doesn't it it looks more like you're trying to justify your ideal with the story and you're you're dancing around it it's like you're it's hard for you to justify that God is omniscient based on this story because in the story that's not what it looks like now again I'm not saying God isn't omniscient I'm just saying these are high high high level ideas and I don't think we have between the stories in the Bible okay and these high level theoretical ideas I don't think we have the right connectors here to make it make sense I think it's true that God is on Mission and omnipotent and all that but we're missing something like we have two levels here the levels that are described in the store of the Bible and the these these theological things and I think there's a gap here between these two things and I think we don't know how to join them correctly it would be interesting if we did but I honestly think we don't so what happened is like the the work that we have for our generation for this time is to try to find those ways of connecting I think it's the work of all generations you know it's not just us I mean it's I think at some point this is my theory but I think at some point there wasn't there was a Christianity um took some Greek Concepts okay some Greek philosophy Concepts uh and they integrated into Christianity and this actually happened before Christianity it happened in Judaism you know there was Judaism and then they encountered the Greeks and the Greeks had high level mathematics and they had high levels philosophy right so and then the the Jews also tried to integrate these these ideas into their uh into their worldview and then it created some problems they they're aware of it I mean it created some problems because there was a it's too high it's too high again that doesn't mean it's not true like there's difference between not true and too high too high means we can't connect our reality with these high level ideas we don't know how to connect them properly so that it makes sense so we have like separate universes a universe of theological understanding and a universe of stories in the Bible and that now we even have lower levels that are not connected to these either yeah we have our scientific uh technical knowledge it's not connected to this and that's not connected to that so we have like disconnected realities that we don't know how to connect and I think this is our main problem and it's a big one uh it's like we live we live in a fractured world you know we live in a world that has fractured um there's no Bridges between the different levels of things and um yeah this is what we have to do so when you say yeah is this what we have to do yes I think it is we have to work at connecting these things in in a good way not in a way where like we're fighting each other like there shouldn't be fights between religion and Science and there shouldn't be fights between Theology and let's say just the biblical narrative there shouldn't be conflicts it's there should be Bridges created so that it makes everything makes sense but it's not easy I mean it's not easy I'm not claiming I'm not claiming that to have it but I tried your books is you're like endeavoring to accomplish that or try to help bridge those things yeah definitely what I'm trying to do yeah yeah I'm trying as best as I can to do what I you know what I see uh I mean I was more concerned with Bridging the gaps between the stories in the Bible and um our scientific world view you know our Technical worldview and but I didn't want to necessarily Bridge those gaps what I really wanted to do is just make sure there's no confusion between the two so you see there's a lot of work we have to do so I wasn't really even trying to bridge the gaps really because it's hard that's it's something I'm gonna let someone else do you know eventually maybe but I always just wanted to make sure there's there's no confusion between these two levels like there's no good future between the hardware and this and the software you know like we don't we know that they're separate things and it's I think it's possible to make some bridges between them I think some people are doing it I mean I don't necessarily follow um all of that because to me it's it's uh I don't see it as my job you know I don't see it as my uh you leave it up to your brother my domain well my brother I mean he's more of an interviewer I mean he's not the one doing the work you know he's more of someone who interviews the people who are doing that work you know what I'm saying he's not the one who's doing the actual bridge but he's serving in a sense as the bridge of communication you know because he's not the scientist who's doing the trying to you know Breeze the gift you know what he is but yeah you know what I mean he's not the one doing the technical bridging you know um right so and to me there's another Bridge like I was saying before above theology that our tradition of Theology and philosophy to me that comes from the Greeks it doesn't even come from the Jewish tradition you've got Pure Greek stuff you know and it's but it's it is valuable and the Jews back then knew it was valuable or else they wouldn't have tried to integrate it into their world view they knew this is something you know like it's I mean math mathematics comes from these these high level ideas and all the philosophy that I mean it's valuable stuff it's not wrong it's just disconnected from reality I mean did you know the idea that if you study philosophy you're not really going to do anything with it you know that tells us whether that's true or not I mean it tells us a little bit the idea that this is some disconnected stuff because it's it's just ideas it's not connected to it doesn't go down into the ground you know I think we need like concrete reality like put it in practice like what is what are these things that is symbolism and wisdom and principle look like in practice does it look like chopping wood and baking bread and weaving clothes together like you mean in the symbolism in symbolism or in theology uh well um what fascinates me about symbolism is that it's something that we can all participate in um yet it could hide in plain sight yeah and so one thing that you had mentioned before is uh initiation like in that comment with the conversation with Garrett like how symbolism could be right in front of you the biblical Stories the scriptures are right in front of you and yet you just don't even see you don't engage with the meaning and then you do and then you learn some more you read your book let's say and also everything's just open up it's almost like would you say it's like a veil being pulled back and then you can see what's behind you're like oh wow it's amazing you're like wait wait wait there's a little bit more and then you pull another Veil is it something like that and like how does that work like what is what is the dynamic of you know initiation having a veil uh and then seeing what's behind that or engaging in that Realm and then that of uh revelation or even um even say like nakedness you know like where there's this idea that there's a veil between what you can and can't see or what you can and can't engage with and then having to come to a certain place where you can now engage with it and now see it like how does all that work yeah well I can tell you my experience of it I mean if it has a lot to do with the idea of um of perspective okay I use that word I'm going to start using that a lot by the way when I'm gonna write remember the word perspective it's very important because um it's about looking at the world through a certain perspective and that's why certain things are not visible to you sometimes and then they become visible because you're looking at them differently it's your eyes that change you know it's your perspective that change so they were always there but you couldn't see them because your eyes couldn't see them you weren't paying attention to them you know um you didn't see their importance that's had another way to say it that because there's a difference between seeing something and seeing the importance of something right you see this is important or you just see it as a detail you know in the background so that's that's how um it happens um I mean to me the way it happens you it's like you there are certain things that you can perceive that make you change your perspective most of the things that you see they don't change your perspective they just they don't do anything to you to your mind really you just see them as objects you know like I can look at my my you know my my cup here you know it's not changing my perspective it's a cup you know but there's certain things that when you see they modify your vision of of uh the world and uh look can I I can give you an example when I was writing my book I had something like that I had many of those but I can there's one that's easy to explain at one point I was thinking about I was trying to understand the symbolism of light okay um light and dark and things like that and then uh I did the kind of the exercise that I was telling you about before I put myself in a really basic you know almost prehistoric man frame of mind and then I realized that light is fire there's only one kind of light and it's fire and that seems like uh you know not important on this Insight but it was extremely important it changed my perspective because then I I realized okay all right we're used to light bulbs and stuff like that we're also all different kinds of lights right and uh but in the past the only kind of light was fire so light is fire okay and then I realize okay this is this is important because when you read the Bible and you think about the concept of light you got to realize it means fire so that means uh among other things that the light consumes things because fire consumes it eats matter it eats is an eater so that's hugely important in terms of symbolism so now you got you understand okay when there's a light there needs to be something that's eaten consumed for the life to to be there okay so that's just an Insight that I had about light when I thought was I was thinking practically instead of just abstractly like a modern man you know a light bulb so we had this really abstract category of light but if you go back down into the practicality of the prehistoric man and let's say like that light is fire okay so and then all of a sudden I use my light to cook food I used to think there was no relationship between the concepts of light and the concept of cooking right but now if I think light is fire I cook with the thing that makes the light see you make different associations in your mind okay let me give you another example this is an example uh now I'm going to reveal to you something important that happened recently another example of an Insight that I had recently and then this is the source of what I'm going to write in my the book that I want to write okay I was thinking about the the whole concept of um renewal and all that stuff you know I've been talking about this recently and um it's happened to me I was I was thinking about the concept of a direct light and a reflected light okay okay and then I realized something I realized when do we see the reflected light in the prehistoric man's world you know when do we see that when do we see the reflected light there's not that many times we're used to having mirrors around us you know and glass and stuff like that that's where we see reflected light but when in nature where do we see reflected light you think you know the answer I'd have to say probably the Moon okay there you go import but closer to Earth where do we see a reflected light I don't know what do you have in mind water okay yes okay you mean like a like a glimmering water is the only substance that reflects light in nature right yes yes okay so that again it kind of with like with a fire thing that seemed like uh you know it's not really important yes it is because now every time it talks about water in the Bible it's connected to the concept of a mirror okay so um just like what I was saying before I didn't used to associate uh cooking food with light but if light is fire then those two things are connected same thing here and it used to associate mirrors with water but now they're connected so now when I say something like um you gotta renew yourself okay and I say what is the symbolism of renewal in the Bible it's water Right cleaning yourself with water drinking water is about refreshing refreshment means renewal you're renewing yourself but then also with the water I see myself in the water the water is a mirror okay so when I'm cleaning myself I can even see this really practically a person goes down to the lake and he cleans himself he sees himself in the mirror when he cleans himself see those things are connected looking at yourself in a mirror and cleaning yourself in nature are things that are connected but in our Modern Life they're not connected you see so in the symbolism they are connected so when in the Bible it talks about water you gotta have all those connections in your mind and they are when you read the stories you you see them the connections of uh you see yourself in the in the mirror Okay so just an example but you see how how what I'm saying is there's some if you go back to the nature right the the reality of simple human beings your mind makes certain connections that you don't make as a modern human and then what you've got if you want to understand ancient stuff ancient scripture and things like that and symbolism you do have to return to A Primitive uh experience you know well and as soon as you say that I start thinking of all of the other stories in the Bible that have to do with fluidity you could say like whether of course the grand scale of that would be Noah's flood where it uh renews or washes clean the whole world and then it starts afresh but then I also think I've been spending a lot of time with the story of David and Bathsheba um where David kind of reached the bottom of his pit in his fall and uh and then what what actually renews him in that moment is repentance and and weeping so just like the fluid of Tears yes um so that would that be something like um repentance and weeping and sorrow would be a way of like cleansing the soul or renewing the spirit it would it be something like that yeah well I mean you just did a really good Insight crying is water when does water come out of us when we cry you know it's not often that we have water coming out of us so the symbolism of water water is is associated with crime so that's not usually what we would think if I just ask someone in the street do you think water is is connected to cry not crying but do you think these two things are connected like being sorrowful and water they'd be like no not really well crying ah okay there's a connection now so now when you think of someone who's crying you see the symbolism of of water um but in the story in the Bible these things are the stories are constructed so that you see these connections okay so we were talking about David in the story of Beth Beth Shiva she's bathing she's bathing when he sees her on the roof right right she's she's in the water so and then later because of that um David has a moment of repentance where he sees himself he sees himself as uh as guilty okay so it's reflected it's all related okay the Bible is written in a way because the prophet comes and he uses the a parable yeah uh to reflect David David's actions because David doesn't even see what he's doing that is wrong that he's fallen into unrighteousness or corruption I mean he's really bad and it takes like a profit like holding up or like framing that uh using a parable kind of like in a what would you say like a mirror or a reflective way yeah he he created a mirror for for David and then he saw himself but you see if you understand mirror and water go together then you see ah yeah it's Beth but she was in the bathtub so it's like he's he was looking at her when she was cleaning herself in the in the bath so the mirror's there already so see that his sin started with the mirror the bath is the mirror it is a mirror if you if you if you can like I said before make some certain Connections in your mind that we don't usually do um yeah so in that in that stage when he sees the very first part of that story you know he's not going to war he's not doing what he's supposed to he's a bad King I'm righteous king um and then he sees uh Bathsheba in the bathroom reflection what is what is reflecting to him at that point the first part of that story well that's what we're supposed to imagine I don't know we it doesn't say right I mean it's we don't know that the story doesn't say all these these are things they're supposed to just have insights about you know the idea is what was he seeing in the in the bath he was seeing himself that's what he was saying but what what that's what when you have a child that's what you that's what you see in the woman you see yourself in the future you know it's like a glimpse of yourself in the future if you see a woman that you love that you fall in love with and you imagine that she's going to become your wife what are you doing you're seeing your future you're seeing yourself in the future you're seeing your kids in her but your kids it's you kids are you right they're a reflection of you in the future it's just an example I mean you're supposed to think about these things you know there's many things to understanding here uh but it the idea is there's certain connections that we don't naturally do anymore because we're we're too we're too uh um separated from nature really right we're too separated from nature and we can't see so you said before the moon okay the moon reflects there's a reflector so that means the Moon is connected to water connected to mirrors and connected to um connected to repentance connected to all that you know the moon calls forth the tides right we're saying before crying you know when we have a moment of reflection of sorrowful reflection we cry ing is related to repentance again water all these things are connected but we don't usually necessarily see them as connected you know right right so but I mean there's also it's also tied to um really like the female anatomy too because um so much of the female body is tied to cycles of fluidity whether it's you know menstrual or um a lot of other things but um and connected to the Moon connected to the Moon menstruation connected to the Moon I don't know how scientists explain that by the way but it's a traditional thing that the idea of that menstruation is connected to the cycles of the Moon it's well known I mean it's still truth it's still true today a little less true because the more we separate from nature the more these certain things separate you know like I think in the past women used to probably all be menstruated at the same time I'm not that's what I think it's my theory like it women in a in a Close Quarters they used to have all their menstruations at the same time yeah I mean if they're working in close proximities it's just a matter of time yeah and I think it was related to the Moon too I think but now we're we're live separate and we live on fake light you know and it all the Cycles are messed up now so these are subtle things they're subtle influences so if you have a big light bulb in your house you're not influenced by the moon as much as as we used to but if you don't have a light artificial light then the Moon is a is a stronger influence right but the influence of the Moon isn't just the light by the way I mean people who say that they don't know what they're talking about there's there's an influence of the Moon that's more than just uh the light I don't know how it works but you I mean now I there's no doubt in my mind now that I live more in nature the moon has definitely uh cycles of influence and you you can feel it I mean it's undeniable and you can hear it in the end you can see it in the animals often when the animals go crazy it's moon cycles I mean I could predict now today the animals are gonna go nuts you know during the night because of the moon so it's like the technical term we kind of use it differently today is like hysteria right right where it's like that's tied to you know going crazy at Moon time or at certain cycles that are moon influenced yeah yeah yeah these are all real things I don't care what scientists or materialists say when they say it's not true at it they don't know what they're talking about I don't trust them as much as I used to that's for sure what are the the stages of the life of a woman and how do we understand that you know symbolically another example of an Insight that I got because I was thinking practically okay going back to practical stuff and I realized something really important about the symbolism of women and the role of women in in ancient Society but it's it's changed today but um the women in in the ancient world okay because it was let's say patriarchal okay because it was right I mean the woman her function in the universe was very different from that of a man because uh not just in terms of the sexual Dynamics and the reproduction I'm talking about something else here um let's say you're a father okay and you have a daughter and you're you're try to imagine in the ancient world okay now your daughter um when she's in your family uh she's useful to you just like any other member of the family can be useful you know she does chores and things like that like your son she she does she do they do some chores and there's nothing wrong with that obviously I mean your family are working together you're doing things together you're trying to survive together right so it's not like anything wrong with that but your daughter in your mind you say one day I'm gonna lose her she's going to be gone out of my family I mean how intense is that now we don't see it as much today because it's not the same structure of uh dynamics of families and stuff but in the past my daughter if she gets she's gonna leave my family and she's gonna go and join another family okay think about the implications of that it's a big deal so I have this person that's in my family now that in the future is like almost like a traitor in a way she's gonna be not in my family anymore she's going to be in another family now imagine you have different families that are in competition okay imagine you have families in competition which is probably what it was in the past and still is today to a certain extent and you have a daughter and now she's loyal to you your family you but in the future if I if she gets married she's going to become loyal to another family okay now what if that family is is not necessarily that friendly you're always in a little bit of a competition between groups I mean it's just the fact of life now my daughter now will be able to say things about this family to that family which maybe I don't want okay I'm just giving some examples here for you to understand all the implications of this daughter going to join another family it's a big deal because now and also the opposite is also true okay when you have a son and he and he gets married to a a daughter you're welcoming someone from a foreign family another family a member of another family is coming into your family okay so now same thing but in Reverse but you gotta if you gotta see all the implications so is she loyal now to her new family or is she still seeing herself as part of the old family now if all the families are getting along there's not a big deal not a big difference but if the families aren't close if they're in somewhat of a competition with each other it is a big deal now you've got to spy potential spy in your family okay so these are all things that we don't think about anymore because they don't function like that so but this is very important like here's an example in the story of uh yeah in the story of J Jacob okay once you understand these dynamics that we don't think about anymore in the story of Jacob Jacob he goes off into his wife's family he joins the family of Laban that's not what's supposed to happen it's upside down usually it's the other way around usually it's the woman that goes and joins the family of the man but in that case it's like an inverted thing and it causes some weird problems of dynamic problems in there because Laban is like he's trying to flee for blaming he's trying to keep him in his family he's trying to keep Jacob and his family his family you know he wants to keep his daughters anyway I don't want to get too far into this but it's just an example of the role of the woman in the past was very very different from that of the man okay she was The Stranger that comes into a family that's what she was okay it's very different so if you're a father and you have a daughter you know that your daughter soon is going to leave you into another family she's going to become like a resource I'll remember of another family it's a big deal it's like we don't think about that and if if you're a father of a son you're going to have a new member in your family so you've got to trust these new members you know it's going to change the whole dynamic of your family so this is something that we don't think about and if you think about that and you read the stories in the Bible you'll see how important it is to keep that in mind the woman you know like when I say I talk about the Eve the role of Eve in the story of Adam and Eve and I say Eve she is the foreign perspective right she mediates the foreign perspective I don't know if you saw the conversation I had with Jordan Peterson did you see that I did yes okay so so Eve mediates the foreign perspective now think about what I just said the daughter literally is that marries your son is a foreign perspective uh another family a foreign family she comes into your family so she really is the foreign perspective in your family now you see so it's not just metaphors you know it's it's a very concrete so the the female is a foreign perspective in your family so she can either so that's a lot of implication she can be some she can bring something new to your family because she comes from another family she's got new things that you've you know maybe never um experienced or whatever she's got different uh even if it's in the same culture I mean there's still some differences in different families you know it's still something new that she brings all the problems are also there she could be like a treacherous woman who knows you know if you if if that family is your enemy I mean they could send their daughters to you know stab you in the back while you're sleeping you know I'm you I'm doing extreme examples but uh it's just on the other but on either side so the family that is receiving the daughter is that like a that the patrols like kind of like the integration of a foreigner yes yeah she they have to integrate some foreign some things that are different from their family inside of their family they've got to deal with these differences so you know sometimes you know feminists get upset at the idea that uh they used to um pay a dowry right when when you give your daughter away they used to have to pay but it's not really insulting when you think about it it's it says that she was worth something to that family she was she's worth something to her family and now I'm gonna lose her I should be compensated for that I mean it's not it's not like a negative thing it means she had a lot of value to that family it's like now I'm losing my members of the family there's a valuable thing it's not an object it doesn't make it a commodity it's just it was acknowledged that she had value and that she had to be paid you know it's so it's it's not an insult it's the other way it's it's often like that certain kinds of feminists they they see things as insulting when it's really the opposite actually and you know the thing where Adam names the animals and then Eve it says Adam didn't find a help you know some feminists see that as insulting like oh Eve is like one of the animals no she is not like one of the animals that's the whole point so why do you see it as an insulting it it's it's like they sometimes they invert certain things you know it doesn't say she's one of the animals she's not one of the animals so you know take it for what it is instead of inverting it because that's what they often do same thing here with the Dowry thing it's not ending so it's the opposite it's a God it's like you're worth you you got worse your your family's losing you that's should be compensated you know what I'm saying so these are just it's probably not what you wanted you know in terms of the whole women thing but I'm giving you things that you've probably never thought of yeah I don't want to tell you things that you already know you know because we all understand that a young girl represents you know uh innocence and things like that we all understand that uh in a way she represents nature and things like that but I think I'm maybe giving you something maybe that you you haven't thought about the the idea of the Dynamics of a family for a woman and a man were completely different they were like opposites yes you know what yeah you want to like the if you're a father you have a son your son's going to stay in your family forever but if you have a daughter she's gonna go big difference isn't it yeah it's like a huge difference so it's almost like you're describing from the perspective of a father and having a daughter I'm wondering like are all these things like tied together you talked about uh having a foreign perspective having a mirror that reflects um and then like this aspect of a father to a daughter um like all of these things like the women represent this OR carry this out and and the way that they live their lives on the earth in reality I think so I think they yeah yeah so is the the all of these things are they part of that refreshing renewal is this like recreation in a way is that like what motherhood really is too yeah motherhood is is exactly that motherhood is yeah uh it's uh creating creating a new uh a new human that's what mothers do they give birth to new new a new man to give birth to the new man so it is about refreshment a baby is a fresh a new uh human see quite literally I think about that like in the story of Bathsheba too because there was two children um one was the the I guess the seed of unrighteousness um that did not grow you know after David repents yeah from uh conceiving with a Bathsheba um and murdering her husband for intents and purposes uh in order to make that happen it was like after that point of repentance which actually is kind of interesting you know to kind of draw upon your your book is that he repents for seven days he prays for something and then at the end of that seventh day that child dies and it's an unnamed child it does not have a name yeah and then um so what happens the very next thing that happens they don't use the number eight but the very next thing that happens narratively is the conception of Solomon yeah okay so it's almost like like so he's like all of those other things were washed away and then on the Eighth Day right or like how would you say like the recycling into or the Turning of the cycle to day one of a new week or a new era yes is Solomon right and then so that's like the seed like she brings that bad seed with the same person same mom is now delivering forth I guess the next era of the Kingdom that's a seed Stone in righteousness uh rather than uh out of corruption yeah so yeah exactly so it's like like many stories in the Bible there's a it's like a micro Closet in that event of the whole pattern of David what he is so that event is is a is like a mini version of all of the story of David you understand what I'm saying because David represents that as a whole how so he represents the renewal you know he's also the eighth Child by the way David is the eighth oh right yes okay so why is it significant that it's seven and then eight what's happening there I think it's what you just said before it's the new start right that there's it's like the new uh the new week the new cycle it's like the one one begins again right the eight is like the one so you what you said was correct my my opinion you had it okay well I suppose this is my attempt to try to put your um your principles into action so to speak with uh because I you do it's interesting you do discuss David in your book but it's typically in the margins I noticed was that intentional well it's because man my whole my whole purpose in life is to explain what David is all about if you want to know a little secret yeah tell me more why is that yeah my it's like my whole my whole reason for uh doing anything basically is because I want to explain the David I wanna I want people to know what King David is all about because I think we're it's related to our times like this is the time to it's the time for King David I don't know what else to say it like this this is what's good I think is going to happen so we have to be able to recognize recognize the the signs you know because if you understand what something is you can recognize the signs of it so this is I I haven't I'm not there yet in my in my uh Publications or whatever I mean I don't even hopefully I will get there at one point but now I'm getting closer to it we're talking about Eve and stuff I'm getting closer to David um I'm gonna I've always wanted to write a book about Samson because Samson is related to David okay and uh the reason is because eventually I want to talk about David so most of what I do yeah most of what I write and most of what I talk about is it's about one day being able to talk about David so that people will understand it I mean I could talk about it now but I don't think anyone would really understand it because David is a really special uh character you know it's it's not easy to understand uh so it's like I have to there's certain things you have to know in order to understand what David is about you know that's like you're just waiting for the right veils to be pulled back at the right time yeah yeah you have to explain certain things before you can understand uh like you got to talk about Eve before you could talk about David so that's what I'm gonna do next you got to talk about Samson too so so maybe I will write a book about Simpson just because for the purposes of explaining David um I mean I could say something right now about I think you will understand or I think your audience will understand because there's certain key things that it's like things that contain a lot of information okay but we could still um we could still hear them okay uh yeah so here's something um what David is all about uh so I'll say it like this David understood in life but Samson understood in death okay so that's like a sentence that I'm giving to you like you can understand a lot with that okay so that's the difference between Samson and David now I I there's a note in my book about that uh if you remember I say that Samson is like the sun and David is is the moon okay uh that's not me it's not me that makes that up I this has come from tradition okay and I Samson means son so that's again not a big mystery here Samson literally means son Okay so it's not I'm not the one I'm not making stuff up here you know what I mean the Sun in the sky say that again as in the Sun in the sky yeah yeah this oh yeah yeah not Sun s-o-n Sun s-u-n you know um yeah and David is the represents the moon uh is connected to the symbolism of the moon and the difference between the two is very important like if you want to understand David Reed Samson and then read David and you'll you'll figure it out because David what what Samson does at the end of his life what he understands the mystery that he understands when he dies is what Samson uh understands his whole life okay so that's why they say um what Samson understood in death uh David understood in life it's like a way to differentiate the two and um and then the rising of the Moon it's about it's about the cycle okay it's like the mystery of the cycle how what's the operation of that Samson figures it out when he dies okay David figures it out his whole life he's got it during his life he knows about the cycle his whole life while Samson only figures it out at the end of his life but he's got a good understanding of it um but he doesn't fully get it until he dies at the end okay that's when he fully understands what the this pattern is all about on the other hand David he's got it in life in life he he he knows how to do certain things in a way where he he'll benefit from the cycle of the of the pattern or the pattern of the cycle okay um while Samson he doesn't really benefit from it sorry from an early age David knows yes his whole life he knows he understands the mystery of the cycle Samson he doesn't he can't but he doesn't benefit from it he doesn't understand enough to benefit really from it okay it kills him in fact it's what kills him um there's another um there's another hint in Tradition in the Bible you know the the verse that says uh uh a lot a living dog is is better than a dead lie right you remember that proverb um that's about it's related to David and Samson the the living dog is David and the deadline is Samson okay this is from tradition I'm not the one who's making this up so Samson is the dead lion and David is the living dog okay so David is is uh connected to the the animal dog exception is connected to Lion well that that one's easy because it's it's a little more clear in this story by the way when when Samson kills the lion what do you think that means it means it's killing himself okay that's what it means it's like a hint it's like a glimpse of the end of the story because there's lots of hints about that in the story uh well the lion is is a solar uh symbol you know it's associated with the sun in every culture that has a line in it um so the idea is when he kills the lion he's killing himself it's a representation of the cycle it's a representation of the whole story of Samson uh there's lots of hints too I mean when he asks the riddle to the this is the Philistines um you know he they they're trying to figure out the riddle and so they say what is stronger than uh a lion that's the riddle um from from the strong comes the sweet you know so they pretend like they're figuring out the riddle but really they were told by his his wife which is really his enemy so and then they say what is stronger than a lion instead they don't just give the answer they don't say the strong is the lion they ask it in the form of question which is very very interesting to say it's like a rhetorical question you know what is stronger than a lion the answer is Samson okay that Samson is the lying okay I'm giving you some little hints here but um there's lots of hints in the story of what I'm saying uh the little lion um lion Honey Thing the the riddle it's it's it's a symbol of the whole story of Samson it's like a microcosm that little riddle is the riddle of Samson himself okay okay yeah so I'm just giving you some hints here I don't know if you'll what you'll make of it but and then David yeah David go ahead I was gonna say David is is the same thing so basically what he understands is the pattern of the cycle like you don't want to kill your enemy because you're killing yourself and if you want to kill your enemy you can kill yourself that's that's the cycle batter that is understanding David gets it but he gets it in life like he manages to live even with that knowledge so what he does is while Samson gets that if he kills his enemy he kills if he kills himself he ends up killing his enemy that's how he understands the cycle in death okay David understands it in life so it's all about like he doesn't want to kill his enemy he doesn't kill his enemy why he knows if you kill your enemy he's gonna end up killing yourself he knows this is important uh this is actually the the pattern of this uh the Book of Judges it's all about that it's all about that the judge this is important stuff uh not a lot of people understand this uh there in the Book of Judges it's about they are both judges and saviors at the same time okay so that's it's the Paradox of this cycle because why they're the saviors of Israel and they're the judges of Israel those are like opposites they judge Israel and they save Israel they do both it's the cycle pattern the whole Book of Judges is about that the Paradox of being both the Savior and the judge at the same time so it happens in this uh the Book of Judges they the judges saved the Israelites from their enemies but then they end up becoming the enemies of Israel if you read you can reread it with that in mind you'll see that that I'm right so they save them but then they judge them judge them means attack them in in that context because that's what happens so like the Gideon ends up attacking Israel he he defends Israel but then he ends up attacking Israel and it happens which uh Samson too he defends them but he ends up attacking them you know you'll see read the story you'll you'll find it very interesting with the little things hmm okay I'm so I'm just thinking about David um you know so he goes from he goes from knowing what's ahead of him being called out as King as a very young boy and then it's almost like this really really long process for him to step into what that is um so like why is that what's happening there because he doesn't want to kill Saul that's why that's why it's a long process because it's it's all about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil he he knows he got to wait he knows you have to wait you can't you if you like if he kills his enemy he'll he'll be killed it's like he kills himself I don't know what else to say it it's really simple it's really simple but in the end um trying to find a way to explain it but David is about renewing the king he's the renewer of the king that's why he's he's a musician too and we see it in the story Saul is taken over by the bad Spirit at one point and this is about the truth it's about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil there's lots of things in the Bible that are about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil but for some mysterious reason nobody understands that that whole symbolism I don't I don't know why but Saul gets taken over by the bad side okay yes it's from God too it says God sends an evil spirit to salt and then uh David receives the good spirit right it's like so it's a tree of the knowledge of pretty good and bad and um David um is there to renew kingship okay so what does he do he he plays music for uh Saul that's how he renews so he's playing music that's what it's for it's about renewal it's about rest and renew and uh it works you know it's it renews so but it's temporary you know so this is just so we understand what the role of David is in my opinion that's the whole point of that it's like a microcosm again there's so many in the Bible it's always there's always many versions of the whole story right so this is an example of that that when David plays music to renew Saul it's a mini version of the whole pattern of the story which is about David's going to replace Saul who's going to renew the king ship okay so the whole time he's basically could be killing his enemy which is so he could kill him many times okay uh but he refuses to do it because he knows if you kill he's the king so if he kills the king he's killing himself and this actually is not just a clever little thing it's it's very practical if you are the if you are you want to be a king you don't want to kill the king because killing the King is like a disrespectful thing you're disrespecting the office of the king when you kill the king you understand what I'm saying so if he is King and he kills the king he just disrespected the office of the king so the next guy will just kill him too so he's going to be the next in line to be killed by the next potential King you understand what I'm saying yeah it's like if you do that you put yourself in a cyclical like a Vengeance thing you know like a retribution thing so I mean you killed the king so why wouldn't I kill you now if I want to be king there's no reason not to but if he respects the the office of the king and he refuses to kill him even though he's his enemy it's like he's saving his own life when he's doing that for the future because he is he establishes the respect for the kingship I'm not going to kill the king because he knows he's the king see he knows that in the future he's going to be king so why I'm not going to kill what I'm gonna be in the future or else if I do that somebody else will later do the same to me and I'm gonna be the one that was going to be killed so this is just an example the whole story is is about the mystery of the cycle and David is like a master of the cycle that's what that's the best way to understand what David he's like he understands deeply this cycle and uh so he he does things like he joins with his enemies and then the enemies he uses his enemies against Israel he uses the enemies of Israel against Israel this is all about the cyclical pattern like he understands he's like he's surfing you know he's surfing the the pattern of the cycle he's like a like a it's got deep knowledge you know deep knowledge of something um about the concept of Vengeance and how you how do you avoid Vengeance how do you avoid this cycle of Vengeance how do you use your enemy against yourself but you make sure that you don't get killed in the process you know things like that and this is what he does and uh at one point he's he's with the Enemy and he's supposed to go fight soul and then I don't remember exactly what happens but he ends up not going there it's like he knows he's got this anyway you should read the story with just just what I told you already should help you um he's so think of David as like a a master of the cycle that's what musicians are in my opinion too that's what they are in in a way in a way of speaking uh so this is what it's hard to explain like I would like to one day write a commentary on that whole book but it's not easy it's it's hard to explain now I've explained a little bit I think sometimes you're working your way up to it though man I'm like that's hard I just yeah well you know so you it's in a way it's so you're saying like he doesn't want to introduce the pattern of Revolution and then step into King and then what do you know like the whole King is built on the foundation of Revolution and then it's like Rome or Russia like any of these like Empires that you study in history it's like as soon as they introduce that then it's like kings they last for a year and then another Revolt happens and then they're wiped out and then the military coup happens and then you know they're gonna revolves thickens that and it's like just this never ceasing pattern yes he understands he understands deeply the consequences of entering into this pattern exactly and so he but he still enters into it though this isn't interesting he doesn't just say no no to the cycle that's not quite what he does he just is able to use it as Advantage okay and this is it's not the only uh story in the Bible that's like that there's also the Book of Esther is also about that the Book of Esther is about surfing the surfing the wave of the cycle okay because it's about using the the cyclical pattern to defeat your enemies but not be defeated because when you use that you can defeat your enemies with using the cycle it's not that hard but then it's going to come back to bite you okay but in the book David is a master of not not having that happen here by the way at the end David what does he do um he never gets a vengeance and at the end when he has got his son he gives him the responsibility like avenge my enemies okay but it's not him now so this is how he escapes it and he does that at the end of his life too so he's gonna die anyway you know but he like gives the responsibility to a Vengeance to his son so this is actually important but because it's like it's not me that gets Vengeance it's somebody else that I mean that's the whole it's the whole idea of a legal system that's how you establish a civilization you know you don't you're not the one who's going to do your own law somebody else will so it but in a primitive uh world you know you avenge right you avenge yourself and that's what they're trying to escape from you know the this whole warring cycle the cycle of Vengeance Vengeance Vengeance never ending so how do you get out of that it's not easy it's not easy to get out of that cycle so that's what David knows how to do and that's he knows how to escape um the pattern and use it at the same not just Escape it and use it so like I said same thing Esther Esther is about using the cycle uh against your enemies so this is what that book is all about it it's like there's a confusion at one point between Mordecai and uh what's his name uh Haman I think his name is Hammond the bad guy in the story and then it happens when um the king is trying to give a compliment to Mordecai and Haman for some reason I guess because he's prideful or something he hears it and he thinks the king is talking about him okay so it's like he's complimenting Mordecai but this guy Haman interprets it like he's the king is talking about him so he says what reward should I give to this man and he thinks it's him so he gets ah the best reward you know but you see this is this is where the cycle starts okay it's like when there's a confusion between enemies so there's two enemies but there could there's a confusion they're drawing in some way that's when the cycle starts okay so in the Book of Esther that's where it starts it happens when um Haman misinterprets what the king says as if it was about himself something about Pride too it's like he he wants to reward himself okay and that's his downfall because once you want to reward yourself you're entering the cycle you're entering that pattern and then what happens is everything turns against him he wants to punish Mordecai but he ends up punishing himself and he wants to reward himself but he ends up rewarding Mordecai you see so Mordecai is knows how to use the cycle to his advantage while Hammond is the opposite he he like he falls into every trap you know he wants to reward himself the opposite happened he wants to punish his enemy he gets punished so this this is just a little uh sideline just I just want to give you another example of that whole surfing the cycle thing because they're not there you can still use it you use the cycle you don't have to just act like it doesn't exist but you got to be like really clever like King David this is what my opinion this is what's coming soon because the people who people who are messing our world up right now they're also I'd say masters of the cycle they know how to use that that whole Magic you know that whole confusion of the um Vindication and things like that they know what they're doing so the the person who can win against that is also someone who knows these things how to use the cycle but in a good way so for Renewal real renewal not not the kind of renewal they want to do now I'm just thinking about like how Haman or Haman come on yeah I'm not sure I pronounce it either yeah so he and he builds the The Gallows right he builds the Gallows with the intention of hanging his enemy um Mordecai but he ends up building it and gets hung there himself yeah or like how David talks about the pit a lot you know uh vindicate me O Lord and bring me out of the pit saw him after Psalm talks about that um and then there's also one that says that that this this pattern of the enemies digging a pit that they end up falling into themselves yes so yeah do you think David is all about people today is that is that could be what's happening I'm not sure what's gonna happen but surely I mean I mean I'm not saying that like trying to avoid the questions just we're in very strange times that's for sure yeah we are not in normal times right now lots of things are happening and it's not gonna it's like it's not gonna end well and we need we need help you know we need help from uh yeah from above I guess yeah I gotta be easy I gotta say that your book your discussions they're super helpful in creating like a map for navigating reality and acting in this world um for how to see things clearly um I know there's someone I could go on and on just with how you've helped me and just even the practicality of my family life you know with my wife and as a father um as a man who acts in society um so I appreciate that and then it seems that we've come to the end of a cycle it looks like this the Sun is setting or the moon's rising in the background there in your video yeah there's a there's a snowstorm too I didn't notice that pretty much a snowstorm right now well you get better get back to your yard I will break up the wood burning stuff yeah that's what I'm going to go doing right now actually I didn't notice there was a there's a lot of snow right now all right that's my cue I guess yeah well uh Matthew I I appreciate your resilience in making this conversation happen I know we had a quite a number of things pop up right before that that almost pushed it out and didn't make it happen so I appreciate that a lot and no problem and you know what like I look at this list of potential topics to discuss and it's um yeah we would be barely halfway through um so I'm really excited that uh everything came up the way it did and um you know I I look forward some more I look forward to what you're doing and what you're writing and you know those discussions that you're having yeah well thanks we can have another talk that eventually I guess if you're interested I mean if you want to get me talking all you got to do is mention the Bible you know and then yeah close out well I don't really control it so well there's a couple things so uh the answer that would be like yes um and then the other two-fold part of that would be okay so the symbolic World group we're kind of we're working on a project right now it's still veiled um and so I reserved a lot of those some of those questions specifically for that where um it's going to be a very special project and um so I'd like to continue asking you a few questions that will I'll just say it's not going to be a video project that's going to be something with actual paper um and so it'd be great to maybe uh engage in that way and answer a few of those questions in that format and then and then another thing is were you able to read Cormac Jones his article in the symbolic World blog about the cosmic chiasmus I saw it it seemed very interesting yeah I will read it I saw it like when you you sent me an email right I I saw I went to see it I saw what he was talking about you know like patterns of uh and um I decided I was gonna read it but I didn't have time to it's like I'm really busy right now it's it's always just I'm just getting ready for winter basically he's like oh my goodness it's taken up by that you know I'm like building building uh shelters and stuff like that because you know you gotta have a work area you know for the winter I didn't have that last year and now I learned my lesson like you got to have an area that's sheltered from the uh the elements you know just like for building things and stuff like that you know um it's you can't work in the snow I used to think you could but I tried and then it's like no everything gets wet and you can't you can't just can't do it so you're in the elements man and everybody so yeah here's my thought on that is when you get to that time go ahead and read it because reading that article was at the same level of reading language of creation your book and I'd be really curious to see if Cormac would be willing to have a conversation and perhaps I could play as you know moderator or host or something it would be really cool to to get um Cormac and you in the same uh talking space and see what comes of it all right Matthew well I'll let you go man it looks like it's getting cold up there right yeah yeah it's snowy all right well it was interesting thanks again Owen folks if you haven't already go get a copy of language of creation read it once read it five times read it 10 times um you won't regret it and uh Matthew thank you very much for the talk uh yeah my pleasure look forward to talking with you again yeah me too okay

Channel: Derek J Fiedler

Views: 25,557

Keywords: derek fiedler, derek j fiedler, matthieu pageau, jonathan pageau, jordan peterson, conversation, podcast, interview, language of creation, the language of creation, matthieu pageau language of creation, matthew pageau, matthieu pageau the language of creation, genesis, bible, interpretation, matthieu pageau jordan peterson, matthieu pageau channel, matthieu pageau conversation, jonathan pageau and jordan peterson, mattieu pageau jordan peterson

Id: BphiifsUUCY

Length: 99min 2sec (5942 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 14 2022