The Kalb Report - Writing History: Bob Woodward, Carl Bernstein and Journalism's Finest Hour

the kalbarri port is funded by a grant from the ethics and excellence in journalism foundation from the National Press Club in Washington DC this is the Calgary port with Marvin Kell hello and welcome to the National Press Club and to another edition of the CAG report on Marvin Kell and our subject tonight writing history Bob Woodward called Bernstein and journalism's finest hour that was of course their coverage of the Watergate scandal the break-in the scandal the cover-up the toppling of the president there have been other great finest hours in American journalism but Watergate probably is at the very top or close to it at the time a little more than 40 years ago Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein were both very very young reporters at the Washington Post on June 17 1972 five men tried bugging the Watergate office of the Democratic National Committee they're caught Woodward and Bernstein begin to cover the story President Richard Nixon is at the heart of a cover-up on August 8th 1974 Nixon resigns almost certainly one step ahead of of impeachment and God what a story and what a moment in American history I am delighted honored really to have both of you Bob and Carl here on the caliber port and Bob you have been as a post for all of nine months working as I think a nighttime police reporter when you were assigned to cover Watergate to put it in its most charitable way you were not the most experienced reporter on big Dale Washington politics and yet you got the story so tell us how would happen well it's series of accidents that morning the editor said around and said it was a beautiful day in Washington a Saturday and they said who would be dumb enough to come in to work in my name rose to the top of the list and they sent me down to the courthouse to cover the arraignment of the five burglars and as Carla's always said you know the Carlton covered burglars for you know a dozen years at that point you never had them in business suits and there they were and the judge asked where the lead burglar had worked and he didn't want to answer he kept whispering and finally the judge said where and he said CIA and I was in the front row and my reaction was holy and that began a series of clues I mean Carl of course that day was working anyway right I was the chief Virginia reporter of the paper at the time and you been at the paper then well I started at the Washington star when I was 16 so by then I had twelve years experience and I've been at the Washington Post for six years so but I was writing a story about the lieutenant governor of Virginia running for the governorship and I could see all this commotion around the city desk and I said to myself that's a better story whatever it is up there than the one I'm working on so I went up there to find out what it what it was and I started to make some calls without being asked to and eventually the city editor said okay keep making calls and and that day I got hold of the burglars wives in Miami and tried to talk to them in pidgin Spanish but learned a little bit and the next day was Sunday and there were two reporters who came in not enough to be a sorrel and myself and we did our first story together about James McCord the lead burglar and his connections to the CIA but also he was head of security for the Nixon campaign and that was you know what so this meant that almost within the first 24 48 hours you already had clues linking what they had done to the White House and of course the White House then called it a third-rate burglary to which it had no relationship whatsoever and of course as we know now it turned out to be the key to understanding that the Nixon presidency was a criminal presidency almost from beginning to end and that Richard Nixon was a criminal president of the United States when did that thought this criminal president Doyle let business enter your mind well we had a story about ten weeks into after the Watergate break-in in which we wrote to John and Mitchell Nixon's campaign manager and former law partner had while being Attorney General of the United States controlled the secret fund that paid for Watergate and other undercover activities against the political opposition and I'll tell this story now I'm going to take a second so the White House immediately said that that story when we called him for a comment said the sources of the Washington Post are a fountain of misinformation and we typed out their response and I said to the press secretary what was the story right did mr. Mitchell control the funds the sources of The Washington Post or a fountain of misinformation so I had a phone call for a phone number for John Mitchell in New York and I called him and I said mr. Mitchell Attorney General sir we have a story in tomorrow's paper I'd like to read to you he said go ahead I said all right one says John N Mitchell all attorney general in the United States controlled the secret fund and I got that far mr. Mitchell said Jesus and I got a few more words into the paragraph and mr. Mitchell said Jesus and and then he said Jesus Christ all that crap you're putting it in the paper if you print that Katie Graham referring to the publisher of The Washington Post Katharine Graham is going to get hurt it caught in a big fat wringer and I was not used to speaking to attorneys general and I kind of instinctively jumped back from the phone myself worried about my own parts more than mrs. Graham's birth and and then he said and when this campaign is over we're going to do a little story on You Tube boys and hung up the phone and at which point you knew well at which point it was a very chilling moment for a 28-year old reporter and then you called Bradley boy called Ben Bradley our great editor told him what Mitchell had said and Bradley said he really said that and I said yeah and Bradley said you have it in your notes and I say yeah I typed them all out he said all right put it all in the paper but leave out her tip that's what's called great editing was that one of the reasons by the way that telling this story was that one of the reasons why from the very beginning you both knew that you were onto something not just journalistic but historic and you began to keep every note that you ever had a very young court we because that handed up itself is rather unusual well no I mean you write everything down you you try to keep a record it was clear this was an important story but but Mitchell's threat to Carl is important because can you imagine Eric Holder the Attorney General now saying that to a reporter even if he thought it no because it would get out and would become a big deal but Mitchell felt so insulated felt so protected by the White House by her political system and quite frankly by the press that he could talk that way what he made protected by the press exactly that I mean no one picked that up it was a kind of oh yeah isn't that interesting that John Mitchell just threatened the publisher of The Washington remember most of our colleagues in the Washington press corps at the time did not believe the stories that we were writing for the first couple months in Watergate including many of our colleagues at the Washington Post and it right at that time we were having coffee one morning in the little cafeteria they had off the newsroom and Carl put it was a dime and it was news you could get a cup of coffee from a dime wasn't very good but it and as you've said in this I mean I watch this you can feel the chill go down your back and you've used turned around to me and you said my god this president is going to be impeached and my response was I think you're right but we can never ever use that word in this newsroom because people will think we have a political agenda and that was the fall of 1972 and it was a year before the whole impeachment Drive began so we we had a glimpse of it but we had to be really careful because as you may recall Mervyn at the time the White House was unloading on us in a way the unprecedented what Ron Ziegler the press secretary for Nixon would just say the the Washington Post is engaged in the political campaign Ben Bradlee the editor over there was a friend of John Kennedy's and on and on and on all the other Republican operatives would give speeches Bob Dole went up to Baltimore and gave a speech that went on and called us every name in the book and so we're in a foxhole to a certain extent on all of this it's an interesting point it takes off in many directions but on the foxhole for example call I read somewhere recently that you were describing the relationship that you had with Bob as being kind of foxhole and you also said that it was very warm friendly but you did acknowledge that you had disagreements some of them you said very heated yeah could you give us a sense of what one might be warm and friendly haha you know like a State Department folks hot I mean the we were we've been going on for 40 years yeah have you guys been at loggerheads all that time no we look at things differently but we you know as you pointed out I'd been in working at the post for nine months and it's great to have a partner like Carl who's been there forever I think you go back to the Calvin Coolidge at least at least but the great thing that happened is is that that we complemented each other and we switched roles all the time that what would be expected of me Woodward would do what would be expected of Woodward I would do in terms of writing in terms of reporting and give us an example of the very heated argument well there's there's a story that we wrote that said that Chuck Colson the president's deputy assistant political operator and John Mitchell had really been behind the Watergate operation and the whole huge campaign of political espionage and sabotage that Watergate was a part of and we had the goods on the story so I thought we had a number of people saying that this was the case Bob didn't think that this story was ready to go and he prevailed in we had we had a big fight about it and I thought it was in the book and all the president plans that was probably the biggest argument we ever had and it was a hugely important story and it was never published in the agreement we had over another ten cent cup of coffee was if somebody said no okay no prevail and you mean if one one of us if one of us said no and it you would not go even applied to the lead of us but what's interesting about this story never published Newsweek last week has a cover story reinventing we have saying we that they have a copy of this unpublished article and they in and they have drawings of the two of us on you know beyond deep throat this some of the other secret sources that we had and if it they feel like you know they've uncovered a dinosaur bone that didn't even run wasn't even in s so yeah that's 42 years the latians amazing story 150 attend it just I mean we were kind of looking at it work and you know I had to plead guilty and and say we should have run that stuff you know but left no better late than never yeah right the thing that's kind of interesting to me you mentioned a moment ago Bob Dole going up to Baltimore ripping into the two of you that had to have had some kind of play within the establishment of the Washington Post well not everybody was Ben Bradley not everybody was Kay Graham there must have been people who went to Kate Graham and said what are you doing no Andrew Hennings two maniacs to go run Henry Kissinger did who was then the national security and I was not until I mean I said was yes no there is no national editor of the paper somebody did that we loved deeply actually and you know were later he went to Ben Bradley and said that look he didn't have confidence in what we were writing and he would like the National staff not the local staff of which we were apart to take the story over and Bradley said no that these guys are coming in with the information and as long as that's the case they're there on the story let me ask you about Ben Bradley and we know by the way that as we tape this program and it's going out live to a lot of people Ben is very ill at this point but you go back to Ben Bradley was a giant in this industry and then as your editor every now and then I have the feeling he might have been more important really to getting the story out to the public than the two of you absolutely because without him am i right nothing would have happened well it's I mean if he wouldn't publish these stories Carl and I could have written letters to our mothers and that circulation was not much but but Ben was and his mother didn't believe what we were that's right she should Chicago Republican machine right she did when Nixon said in the frost interviews that what we wrote was trash and that we were trash I was you know that's tough stuff and I'm so I called my mother and I asked her what do you think about the former leader of the free world calling us trash and she said oh you know that's Washington that's politics and so forth and she said what's this about being a Republican so on a note bub but Ben Ben was the for us at that time I mean we were in our late 20s and he had all this experience he was the boss and he knew how to motivate people he knew how to interrogate us in a way if you've ever been interrogated by Ben Bradlee you know he won't just ask you know kind of if you got something in your nose exactly what was said did you share everything with Ben no he did not want he did not ask who a couple of sources were he wanted to know where they worked essentially but he did not know to need to know their names but one of the things it's so significant about Ben is that here is an editor without a real politics whose real politics is about the truth and that is what guided him in his career guided him in his life and and that is why he was such a tough editor on us and put us through these paces and knew how you know what the stakes were very early in this story and he too wouldn't publish some stories very early on there was a story we we had done about Ted Kennedy being investigated about a Nixon White House and he took a look at it and marked it up and said well it's certainly not going on page one I'll put it inside the paper but that's it he was tough on us as he should have been you once said Bob that Bradley was great because quote what he kept out of the paper as much as what he got into the paper give us an example of something that he would look at the two of you square in the eye and said guys this won't make it not going to make the paper that all the time we were going through a process of this is what you know Ben's favorite line always was after you did his stories okay what have you got for tomorrow it was always thinking about the next paper and that's the right attitude and so we would chair and we there would be meeting we had great editors on the Metro staff Barry Sussman Harry Rosenfeld Howard Symons was the managing editor and there was you know we would mix it up and talk and we could work two or three weeks on a single story and write him on you know things called typewriters I think some people remember what those were manual yeah no electric yeah you needed finger press or fingers and and send copies around to everyone they would say well what about this what about that check this out and so forth and so it worked but the really interesting thing about Bradley was he knew we were going into a really well organized well-funded criminal conspiracy by the Nixon White House and the Nixon campaign when did he know that I think the time we did the Mitchell story was only three or four months in the destroy him and he said you're about to accuse the Attorney General the former attorney general at the united states of being a crook you better be right but an amazing thing the amount of trust that he vested the two of you how do you account for that did he really think you were that great no he had the greatest of instincts based on this questioning methodology but he had perfect antenna he was a great reporter before he was an editor and because his bottom line and top line was about the truth he would make sure that that story was truthful in fact in context every element of it and it was or is like being in boot camp did you guys ever think that you were ever that your lives were ever in danger yeah we did mark felt deep throat said I think it was in May 73 said the stakes are so high in this lives could be in danger I think I overreacted to it a little bit he wasn't saying are basically say you're perhaps including your own yeah that's right his language I I remember it and you take any step okay here's what we did I mean this is what this is a wet day this is the way it was talked to him I come back type out the notes and Karl and I are going through this and you know wiretapping is going on all over the place lives could be in danger essentially this is going to explode Nixon's going to be involved and so Carl never served enough time in the military so he never observed the chain of command he said we've got to go see Bradley it's 2:00 a.m. in the morning so he was a lieutenant and I was in a one difference and so call Bradley we go out to his house and on Dexter end in Wesley Wesley Heights and Ben and he opens the door he's there in his bathrobe and we say you know come on outside because there's wiretapping going on and he finally thing we finally gone nuts and he comes out and we tell him this and what's there's a hope there's the movie version of it which is little inflated were Jason Robards playing Bradley says you know okay go take a bath get back to work not much is at stake other than the freedom of the press the future of the country and the Constitution and the constant that was all and we've looked back at our notes again and you know what he said this is this is interesting and reflective of him he looked at us and said what the hell do we do now but if you think about what this isn't totally uncharted territory and that's exactly the right question what the hell did and so we met the next day up on the Garden Court at the Washington Post and you know the other editors are really certain we have gone nuts at this point and we start you know what's the next story what are we going to do and as you may recall for 26 months until Nixon resigned that story was you know every week sometimes three or four front-page stories on the Washington in the Washington Post it had a as been his said at the time of the Senate Watergate hearings you could in the newsroom at the post the little TVs were going watching the hearings all the networks covered them oh yeah gavel-to-gavel you could go you go get in a cab and the cab driver would have the hearings on the radio and then you get up and go to some office and in the hill and you would go in there and they'd all be watching this this was a subject that was it consumed this town in to a certain extent the country let me ask both of you this this question you were so deeply into the story I mean few journalists really have an opportunity to get into any story as deeply as you did into the Watergate story and I'm wondering for that reason is there any part of the Watergate story that is still out there that has not yet been discovered well week the young when we keep getting on the Nixon tapes you know month after month year after year no but now new elements yes but are there people like the two of you today perhaps at the Washington Post or anywhere else who are going after a story like this that there's an element of Watergate that is still out there or can one say properly that war to get as a story big banner across it it's done well if it's never done in it it's been Bradley used to always say still says the truth the merges and it takes a lot of time but now let's take an example of the Washington Post let's take the Secret Service if we were talking three months ago and we took a poll and we said how what do you think of this Secret Service people would say great organization you know there's been no shooting no one's been hurt and so forth and now because of Carol Lennox reporting at the Washington Post take a poll about Secret Service gee they let people jump the fence and get into the White House is not in the lead with Watergate okay no I'm not talking about magnitude I'm talking about the point and this is the point in Watergate we don't we didn't know what was going on the conventional wisdom was Nixon was too smart to be involved turned out not to be the case we used to think the Secret Service is this premier organization somebody does some reporting and they say there are all kinds of problems it connects because reporting is necessary I mean as they were Watergate out there you might the real question is is there great reporting going on and there is a great reporting no it is not my question my question relates specifically to Watergate type stories what is what do you mean you mean you know what Watergate is there another Watergate out there well you mean the President of the United States what about what about the great stories that the Boston Globe did about the Catholic Church priests and pedophiles that is an incredible piece of reporting one of the greatest pieces were reporting in the last 50 years so but he BSS I mean we don't know right you gotta wait we don't we don't know whether there's a Watergate there I mean I've done a couple of books on President Obama and President Obama has lots of problems there's lots criticism of him but as one of his aides said Obama has the armor of a good heart and I think that is true I have seen in my report it doesn't mean it's not there but I've seen no evidence that this sort of Watergate like activity is going on in the I just want to take a straight yeah I just want to take a moment now to remind our radio and television and online listeners and viewers that this is the caliber port on Marvin Kelvin I'm talking with with who are you what whatever the hell you whatever the hell your names are all about Watergate and America and and journalism Richard Nixon you are covering him what were your feelings about Nixon then and what are your feelings about him now have they changed why it start with Carl I come from a left-wing political background that had always been suspicious about Richard Nixon my view coming into this story was that the president of United States Richard Nixon or anyone else would have nothing to do with this kind of activity that was my view in fact I wrote a memo at first saying why I thought perhaps the CIA was involved in it then and eventually I thought well might be perhaps a one of Nixon's political operatives but it took a long time till we got hard information I thought were months you know took only four months three I know about your views but my aims yes you asked about Nixon and you know are there unanswered questions about Watergate and and I think the main question that his is unanswered is why why he had risen to become president of the United States and he never understood and disappoint Carl made years and years ago never understood the goodwill that is visited upon a newly elected president and from both parties because if the president succeeds the country succeeds no this particular president today you listened to the tapes and the rage and the hey in the using the power of the presidency to settle scores endlessly but you know why why not kind of you know it's it's like Nixon's at the casino and he he has actually won all the money and he can't you know he wants to see if the you know one of the dealers has twenty dollars in his pocket anyway guess that to Bob yeah it's so interesting what you're saying now I have a question well I'm saying to myself was I wrote this question that everyone at the time who covered Nixon in one way or another was touched by this man I was CBS's diplomatic correspondent at that time Nixon put me on his enemies list to this minute I haven't a clue as to why I have no idea he tapped my phone I don't know why he ordered it my income tax nothing not a penny out of line he had people break into my CBS office twice why it's the same question you're asking was it because I as a reporter would criticize his Vietnam policy is that what it's all about or is there more to this like if you listen to the tapes you hear the vengeance toward those he perceives as his political enemies or those who he believes constrain his ability to do what he wants to do as the president of the United States beginning with the anti-war movement and Watergate really begins with the anti-war movement and Nixon said Vietnam anti pardon the anti-vietnam war movement Nixon setting up in illegal apparatus to wiretap break-in put under surveillance mail covers of people in the anti-war movement we hear him now on the tapes say I know this is illegal but we have to do it and no president can admit that he authorized that isn't a sense Huston plan and of course thank god we've got the tapes because there he is acknowledging the it is illegal in the first weeks and months of his presidency and the that's right we've broken this down to you know there were five Wars five mix and Wars the first was the anti-war move the second one was against in the Washington Post two years ago pardon that's the one you did in the yes yes exactly the second one is a war against the press you're an example of that let's tap telephones because of what you were writing or baby people were leaking to you the third war was against he didn't like the anti-war movement he didn't like the press didn't like aa third group the Democrats they're going to try to win an election see and so we have to set up this whole apparatus of not just the Watergate burglary but massive sabotage you know espionage all over the place and that then the fourth war was the longest war while Nixon was there and that was the war against justice the obstruction of justice really the cover-up and then the fifth one went on for more than twenty years and that was Nixon's war against history to try to say oh no it's just a blip it's a little thing I was misunderstood and again we have those tapes would I if you listened to these tapes if you actually put the headphones on right actually I I think it should almost be a requirement of citizenry because if you listen one year to the day before the break-in at Watergate Nixon Henry Kissinger HR Haldeman Nixon's chief of staff and the Oval Office are talking about some documents in a safe across town in the Brookings Institution to think I'll ask you about a think-tank here in town that Haldeman says if they can get hold of those documents they can blackmail is the word that Haldeman use Lyndon Johnson he means smear because the documents they believe will show that Johnson's conduct of the Vietnam War was even worse than Nixon's and you'll remember there's this great movement again the war now and so they say well we've been you know we really want to get these documents and Nixon says crack the safe firebomb the day in place I don't care what you have to do to get those documents I want the break and the great go ahead go to the exact quote here because I think it's kind of interesting he turns to hold him in and he says god damn it get in and get those files by the way the files was it was presumed that there was a Johnson file on Vietnam that Nixon wanted very much he says goddamn it get in and get those files blow the safe and get it get on the brookings thing right away I've got to get that safe cracked over there and now clearly something was crack the President of the United States saying this no but what I want to get at adhere to the best of my knowledge they never did anything without Brookings now but it's interesting Nixon returns to it time and time again over the next 30 days my question is the way the president's worked the way that staffs work around him Haldeman must have known that Nixon goes off the deep end at least three times a day if we pursued three things every day we'd all go crazy so let's just do one a day and ignore the others because they might it would alderman writes in his book as a matter of fact that's a pretty good equation or if you have to you have to at a certain point and I imagine this happens with President Obama as well people very close to him listen to him explode about an issue perfectly natural and some to and most of the time they'll go and do something sometimes they don't whereas any wonder why doesn't why is it that I give an order we shut down those missiles in Turkey six months later he finds out nobody touched the missiles in Turkey yeah so presidents give orders that are not necessarily followed it's kind of interesting yeah it's more than interesting but the significance of that tape Nixon Haldeman and Henry Kissinger you know where is Henry Kissinger saying I say hey wait a minute we don't blackmail former earlier presidents we don't do this you know this is a touchy subject but you you've got to deal with it the anti-semitic comments by Nixon on the tapes with Kissinger they're not once does he say mr. president I'm a refugee from Nazi Germany please don't talk that way no no but what what Nixon does do he does at one point say in the article that you guys both write wrote that as far as the Jews were concerned he pointed to Len garment he pointed to Kissinger he pointed to build sapphire and he said that they were good Jews they were okay it's the others that we can't trust and in other words ever trust the bastards you can never trust the bastard that's exactly the line I mean I I'm sorry it's awful yes there's no way I'm defending it okay okay what are you nuts and it's endemic yeah yeah and it's it's it's about you know at the end the day Nixon resigned he had that's a farewell address in the East Room of the White House and he called his senior staff cabinet officers and friends there and it there was no script he was sweating if you recall it was televised live he talked about his mother and his father and you know no one will write a book about my mother and there was just a book about Rose Kennedy out at that time and then he kind of waves his hand like this is the summation to the jury this is and you have to give him credit for what he said this is why I called you here implied and then he says precisely always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them and then you destroy yourself do you think he believed what he was saying I think at the moment he kind of decoded himself and he realized that hate was the piston of so many things and that in fact that he'd had destroyed him because he was resigning and I think that was a flash of clarity there an unscripted unwritten line about hate and if you you look at all of this stuff and you know we're talking about Obama in the armor of a good heart oh I don't think Obama hates I don't think Clinton hated I don't think the bush is hated I think that this is as Carl says a unique president in terms of the criminality and the mindset the mindset of I mean listen to those tapes the bra never barks the dog that never barks on the tape is the President of the United States saying what would be good for the country not once in all the tapes we know of his he said that or his a war is aids what would be well good for the country for the hospital interest it's all about promoting him or some public relations advantage or some you know we we go back and look at this stuff in that article two years ago and we you know we were just kind of saying to ourselves real honestly say you know we understated this is much worse than we wrote about absolutely but it's there's one other element I've got this and that is Vietnam that we now know from the tapes that Nixon and Kissinger discuss why we cannot pull out of Vietnam knowing that we're losing and we cannot win but that really continuing in Vietnam is a foreign policy move to encourage the rift between the Russians and the Chinese meanwhile after they recognized that 25,000 more American soldiers are killed old 28,000 28,000 and God knows how many people who are citizens of Cambodia Vietnam etc it is the single most cynical thing I think I've ever encountered in you and your daughter wrote the book on ting legacy about Vietnam and it I mean it I think it it's haunting legacy right now as we're entering the new war in the Middle Ages and and you know what do you extract from it but Carl's I mean that tape of the leader of the free world the president United States his National Security Advisor just in a sense anteing up thousands of lives for geopolitical strategy yeah let me shift subjects for a moment I want to talk to you about where journalism is today where you think it may be going and let me just ask you call are you a fan of the new media I'm a fan of great reporting when it's done by the new media there's not enough of it done by the new media but there's some great stuff look at what Pro Publica this consortium of reporters is doing there's a lot of great reporting out there and then show that Pro Publica you put into the category of the new technology they're using that was my point the key for the new media to really do great reporting is the old legwork that's the key and that's what there's not enough of there's not enough of him in daily journalism by major journalistic institutions with the exception of some great ones like the Washington Post in New York Times The Wall Street Journal a few others networks do virtually none so they wouldn't like to hear that well take a look at what they put on the air I do they do some they do some but they but they should do more of it and and here's the great danger of the internet culture which is impatience and speed and you know give it to me now tweet it and I'll understand it and to miss something and I go back to this theme we don't know what's really going on that the the culture is not enough tilted toward let's dig deep let's really find out and in the cave we need more Ben Bradley's we've got a great new editor at The Washington Post Marty Baron who really is I think works 24/7 and is coming up with ideas and pushing things like Bradley did and lots of new reporters yeah and and that is a toes and that is because I imagine that you have a money man now at the Washington Post who was prepared to provide the capital that allows the paper Marty Baron to go out and hire new reporters so what is it to go back to your point Carl about the shortcomings of contemporary journalism is it that there is not enough money around that certain look if that works look you started at Murrow CBS you were not expected in the news division to make a profit we the rest the rest of the network the entertainment of CBS carried the news division the networks today could hire 300 reporters each if they use a fraction of the profits from from the entertainment but they won't they're public companies they're responsible to stockholders and there's no interest in doing it whatsoever but there's a fact there's another factor not just the reporting that is being done but not enough but there's also good reporting is the best obtainable version of the truth that's what Bradley understood and we don't have enough viewers readers citizens who are interested in the best obtainable version of the truth in a in a common comparable quantum and comparable numbers you can't quantify this to what existed 30 40 years ago that the responsibility of journalism then also rests with the citizens ABS absolutely and in fact we have a culture now in which people instead of them down can only generalize so much but millions and millions of people are looking not for the best obtainable version the truth but for ideological ammunition that will buttress what they already believe their orthodoxies their religious beliefs their political beliefs and a lot of good stories get ground up in the mall of this attitude that has nothing to do now at Watergate you know one of the things about Watergate is Republicans eventually we're responsible for Richard Nixon leaving office they cast the key votes against Nixon in the House Judiciary Committee Barry Goldwater led presidential nominee of his party in 1964 and was serving up he led the delegation to the White House it told Nixon he had to resign with that at the end very doubtful because look at the culture of this town look at the culture of the state legislatures it is ideological cultural warfare that's been going on for 25 years thirty years in this country and it makes the receptivity to the truth very difficult and you know I I mean this we disagree a little on this I mean the analysis is right but in the business the news business you have to break through that's right and you can't kind of say oh it's the citizens fault they're not listening to us when people do a good story it gets circulated and but the culture is different as we talked about the vote to set up the Senate Watergate committee in 1973 was 77 to zero dozens of Republicans voting to investigate their president now you couldn't get a 77 to zero vote in the Senate to have more washroom water sometimes like rhubarb will you you'ii be so but the the variable here is I think the leaders of these news organizations and that's where Bradley played a unduplicated role for us when they were making they had the grams behind him yeah they're important and Marty Baron as the Washington Post today as Bezos yeah the connect pronunciation behind him yeah oh that's fine in each case there was a family interest business interest of responsible interest that's very rare in American journalism today everything is out there on the market everything is viable everything is sellable yeah but it has an impact and when they were making the movie version of our book all the president's men about covering Watergate the director Alan Pakula said who do we get to play Ben Bradlee and they came up with Jason Robards because some people knew him and it was a hard time in his life and they called him in and they said we will want you to play Ben Bradlee we're going to pay you $50,000 Rob earns $50,000 my god that is wonderful and how much they pay robert redford to play you I don't know I don't know I'm not gonna let happen get 49,000 young-sax that's a straight line I'm not going new yet Yeah right good idea and you have no idea how many women are disappointed so that they give the script to Robards and I can't say this word on the air but you'll get the idea and so Robarts goes home enthusiastically reads the script comes back and said I can't play Bradley and they said what do you mean and he said well I read the script all he does is run around and say where's the effing story and they said to him that's what the editor of The Washington Post does that's his job and all you have to do is figure out 15 different ways to say where's the effing story and if you see the movie that's what he nails it what can journalism do now to turn itself around sufficiently to to attract the American people to win them back what do you think journalism I telling the truth good stories good stories day after day after day after day because one of the things about good stories inevitably good stories controvert prejudgment they go against easy explanation so often and and you know the best obtainable version of the truth people some people are open to it many people are open to it and the more we do the more openness they'll be but sometimes you get it wrong and I mean this this is an important reality in this that you don't understand it when Ford went on television in September 1974 he'd been president a month and announced that he was giving Nixon a full pardon for Watergate remember right I was asleep didn't see it Carl called me up and Carl always you you know you have the ability to say what occurred with the most drama and the fewest words and he's if you heard my said I hadn't heard anything and you said the son-of-a-bitch pardoned the son of a the good news is even I got it him we thought at the time you know it's perfect it's the final corruption of Watergate yeah I mean that the guy who led it all gets a pardon forty people go to jail 25 years later look at this through the eye of 25 years of history a lot of time to dig into it talk to Gerald Ford endlessly look at the legal documents and it turns out what Ford did was courageous was gutsy because it is reason at the time pardon you didn't think something more than guts here was somebody who said later that he did that he gave Nixon a pardon so he could one have his own presidency two there were gave great problems in the country at the time inflation the economic problems and that the country had to move on from Watergate and he realized that he might lose his attempt to get elected to the presidency in the race against Jimmy Carter if in a couple years if he pardoned Nixon and probably that is why he lost the election it took such courage and Ted Kennedy was among those who said the equivalent of the pot son of a pardon the son of a that day and a number what fifteen years later or so Ted Kennedy gave the Kennedy family Profiles in Courage Award to Gerald Ford for that party it's a great just hang on okay I have just a couple of concluding questions quickies and I'd appreciate a quick answer to two oh we're not good at there I know that how did the movie how did you respond to the movie I mean how did you enjoy looking at yourself as Robert Redford you was Dustin Hoffman we learned something from it we were unaware I think of how huge a role the night-time played in our reporting and you see it in that movie every bit of information almost that we obtained we obtained it night night and you stand the movie is in darkness the reporting part and because we went out at night we never come up with this same lies during the day the truth at night another question you both had a Zenith probably unparalleled in American journalism of hitting it at the very top when you were still very young is that a good or a bad thing you news welcome good in a bad day I am crushed to hear that we're no longer young it's right what you're not seriously there are any number of young journalists in this audience here tonight and I'd like to ask you very quickly no more than 15 20 seconds of each what is the best advice that you could give to each one of these young people be a good listener people want to tell the truth if you give them a chance or what they think is the truth don't shove a microphone in their face and run out the door 20 minutes later thinking you know the answers let them talk and it's the best job in the world you get to make momentary entries in people's lives when they're interesting and then get the hell out they cease to be interesting and if you're a doctor or a lawyer you have a lot of routine you have a lot of the you know that oh yeah I have to deal with that client if ya in in the business in the news business you start each day what's going on that has meaning what's hidden what don't we know how do we follow that story what are people talking about what what do people care about ah greatest job in the world greatest job in the world unfortunately I could go on for a bit longer than this but our times up and I want to thank both of you most sincerely both of you for coming on down for talking to us for sharing your ideas for giving us insights into what it was like to cover Watergate and I would also like to thank all of you who are here those of you who are here the National Press Club and those of you listening or watching on the new technology because all of us are dependent in the final analysis upon an alert virile exciting press because that at the end of the day determines whether we remain a free virile and exciting democracy thank you guys very much and that's it for now I'm logging town that was generally sleep a good night and good luck thank you very much ladies gentlemen we have a wonderful opportunity now where I don't say a word but you do and there's a microphone there and a microphone there and if you have any questions questions not speeches please go over to the two people on either side ask you a question directed at either Bob or Carl and let's start over here identify yourself please hi my name is uh Samuel Morse I'm a student at GW I'm a junior and my question is whether both you believe that the events would have transpired the way they did if it hadn't been you two working on the story with whether the events would have transpired if it hadn't been the two of us working on the story you know if history doesn't usually work you don't know the answer to a question like that is what I would say I would say probably would not a famine and it would not have happened if Ben Bradley had not been there I think that three of you made an unmatchable we I said we heard about Katharine Graham actually while we have the opportunity the most extraordinary newspaper publisher perhaps over time give you an example please of her dedication to the truth and publishing this very very dangerous story for The Washington Post about 10 weeks in soon after that conversation with John Mitchell I got a call from the guard at the desk downstairs at the post saying there was a subpoena server there for our notes and so I said to the guard well don't let him upstairs keep him there and I called Bradley and Bradley said give me a minute and he called Katharine Graham and he called me back and he says okay you get out of the office and they're not your notes Kathryn says they're her notes and if anybody is going to go to jail it's going to be her that's a great story they'll just think about what that took and this is at a time when we wrote the Mitchell story when the Washington Post had finally gone public as a company and Mitchell and others then proceeded to try and have the post TV station licenses revoked which was the lifeblood of the Washington Post chuckling challenge well right at the time the NB a-- the business about the going to jail and then Bradley of course who had a great sense of theater said Catherine's got the notes if they come and arrest her or she has to go to jail can't you see her limousine pulling up to the womans detention center and as he put it our gal getting out and going to jail to protect the First Amendment and he said that picture would run on the front page of every newspaper in the world I'll be right yes please good evening gentlemen my name is Mark wino I'm an alum of GW as well as a member of the National Press Club and I work for Kiplinger's magazine could you in addition to Ben Bradley and Katharine Graham could you talk about the other editors that shaped helped you craft your stories and what you learned from them guys like Howie Symons Harry Rosenfeld and Charles puffenbarger and Barry Sussman who was the city editor and I'll say a word about Charles puffenbarger and then I'll let you answer the question because puff never worked at the Washington Post but he was when I went to work when I was 16 years old at the old Washington star he was really one of my two mentors there and he was a great great editor learned a lot from him he then became the chairman of the journalism department at GW died a while ago but I learned and have a great debt of gratitude to him but won't you tell well I mean Gerry Sussman was the city editor and was really hands-on and gave us lots of guidance and was the theoretician of what all of this was here a Rosenfeld was the Metropolitan editor and was kind of the sparkplug of the operation and you know we were lucky there was a convergence here of personalities that if you take one piece away it might not work that's thank you yes please George Washington alumnus I wonder why Frank will the security guard never got the credit he deserved at the Watergate because it hadn't been for him you guys would have had a story that's true and it's an often asked question and at the risk of being not disputatious but he did get credit and the fact of your question indicates that he does and obviously everyone owes Frank wills a great debt of gratitude for being on the job that night finding this piece of the movie election wouldn't feel that was in the movie and well I think he is in the movie yeah and so he has been given credit not enough but not enough no no next question please yeah you talk about you talk about Henry Kissinger name please my name is Salem you thought about Henry Kissinger sitting in the office with Nixon and Halderman why do you think Kissinger got a free pass more or less it didn't get any bad press about him going on through through the Watergate thing well easier to describe the creation of the universe Kissinger obviously did some good things I mean if you read our books you'll you'll see that there is another side of sense of this and read some of the other things on him and there there's a controversy but the question was did he have criminal knowledge or involvement in some illegal activity and it was never established right area yeah which is but but perhaps the press itself after you I think and when we wrote the final days particularly about Nixon's last a year in office there's an awful lot about Kissinger in that book and what his role was and interestingly conspiracy in terms of arm being adjacent to the conspiracy Edmund no no Carl what they're trying to say no no I'm trying to say this yesterday something about that wave it uh there's a big difference between a criminal charge and a criminal charge coming forth and having moral responsibility or sitting and being silent and listening to somebody say crack the safe who's the president of the United States Kissinger also is very and has been very smart about his courtship of the press his courtship of political establishment he's brilliant his use of the English language is incredible literate in a remarkable way and so all of these things have come together and and do you believe that Kissinger is involved was involved in a criminal conspiracy no no no I mean but but Carl's it's an interesting word adjacent and it's a word that says I don't want to say what I'm saying no which is a contrary it's an adjacent means next to that he witnessed I mean look at the tapes listen to the tapes and so forth if you're it CBS and the head of CBS says you know break the safe let's blow the safe let's get in there are you just going to kind of say oh well another day at CBS I mean I hope not and I in Carl raised this question on the anti-semitic marks I mean where is Kissinger going to Nixon and saying look you don't talk like that around me please what are you doing here Karl and I have speculated many times if Nixon had one good strong lawyer who would go in there and say you're the president United States knock this crap off now it didn't happen because Nixon wouldn't permit it because Nixon's view of the presidency and his power as he articulated in the frosty interviews that if the president does it it's legal well we are is last time I checked a constitutional democracy in in a constitutional democracy the president doesn't decide what's legal the laws do and you go through some lawyers have gone through lots of the tapes and said you could indict Nixon for a hundred crimes title a team you could run right through it yeah I mean it is just time and time again it's not just beauty beauty it's not just illegalities it's as Carl said the dog that doesn't work it's the smallness of this man and think about it step back the presidency is a wonderful powerful office that can do and has done great things for this country in the people of the country and to blow that chance is one of the tragedies of American hello that chance and yet he opened a pathway to China he's the one who did the Environmental Protection Agency he did a number of things in addition in striking an arms control agreement with the Russians in 1972 that was an extremely important step Oh a from both superpowers going to a nuclear war so don't knock the guy the way you are yeah no wait a minute women like this skipper the Titanic saying you know it was a great cruise except for that rock I think that's good joke the deal is that it was a great crew this is Joe yeah but it doesn't really address yes you know it does address the issue because first of all the opening to China is a great act give him credit for that in terms of EPA didn't take a lot of courage he was a conventional Republican at the time and got Republican support for it fine but the basics of his presidency what his presidency was about really was criminality and go back to Vietnam as we did and as you have written that is the is the index of how awful what happened was because how many people died because of the cynicism of this present I want to be very clear about no no just a minute I want to be very clear about this Richard Nixon did not like me but I never had any personal negative feelings toward him or by the way to it any president nor did we good now that's I'm great I'm delighted to hear that your description of Nixon's criminality I believe is accurate I also believe that you have carried this to a point where you are not allowing any no was it if I just said I just said that nobody Jonathan is a great achievement they taunt you can have an argument the date on was was the right approach or the Reagan's approach was the right approach which was not de Taunton to be confrontational but it certainly was an interesting and workable arrangement with the Soviet Union timing I said interesting and workable are you aware of how difficult it was to get that um actually I think did Nixon and Brezhnev were able to form a relationship and and it was very constructive and they and they used each other but again I was about to say the core use the Soviet China split I mean the CIA was telling Nixon and Kissinger look this you know in a sense inviting them open relations with the Chinese and you will aggravate this split and there are historians who argue this was low-hanging fruit in obvious now I read with Carl it was a good thing but not now wait a minute would you want another president no does some good things who shreds the Constitution to be in the Oval Office so obviously obvious I mean it's a silly question because it's an obvious well we're responding is what you asked you're saying give him a break kind of I am only saying that when we examine I don't have to say this to you to you are the best when you examine when you examine anybody particularly you president all of it has to take be taken into account absolutely and that's fine then we all agree so what are you arguing over here over here a lost track let's go there hi my name is Emily I'm a freshman at GW and in my journalism class we're talking about how journalism falls victim to the culture industry in which like citizens are duped into thinking that new stories are different when in fact they're like carbon copies of each other do you think traditional journalism took part in that why or why not I'm sorry that I had trouble hearing it was about news stories and the same as you mean they get picked up yeah like culture industry in which news stories who the what culture industry the culture I don't know what the culture industry is unfortunately can you define it for me in which citizens are like duped into thinking that news stories are different when in fact they're like carbon cup copies of each other well I think did some some news stories are carbon copies of each other some news stories are different I don't have a conspiratorial view of the overall production of news in this culture tell me the answer well we've got about two more minutes yes please to a certain extent this your earlier conversation segues into this I was interested in having you comment on what it says about American press American public and Richard Nixon the fact that he was able to to a certain extent resurrect himself uh I was I would ask this that arrested right I didn't see the tomb open yeah I mean he made the effort but you know it goes to the line of questioning you know what was this presidency about and was it a good presidency and yes good things happened but I mean look look at the whole history of this country and its vitality grows from its constitution and the adherence to law by the participants including the citizens including the president and the president I mean all you have to do is listen to time and time again let's get the FBI on here let's get the IRS on you Democrats opponents do you think that's what it says in the law that oh yes the president can get members of the other party or people who are opponents it does not it is that there will be application of the law and so we have a time and time again and it is if we had presidents like that we would lose our democracy as far as we know this is a presidency that's it's really sweet generous in it in its criminality that there's nothing like this in our history that we know of were you guys on the enemies list no no no we were we're your phantom taxes ever checked by Richard Nixon don't know what you would know you'd have to file we were audited or not one we would write it yeah well no not later we were making sure nice and docile you very phone bug you you were I was making 15 was not not that we know of that not that we know of so forth so all of those to hang on I all of those things happened yeah to me so I don't like the implication that you're attempting to leave that I am in any way defending Richard Nixon I would simply say your own words you did Marvin no no no Mike what I did was to say that there were things that he did that you were then under a little bit of pressure acknowledging he did I didn't take any pressure well little pressure whatsoever because I have a feeling that this this is not an uncle art the word you have left an impression that is unfair and I'm calling you on it in front of every okay I I don't think so and I think that it's a very usual thing son let's take a vote of the arm yeah it's fine to her no that's that's unfair some firm that that's unfair but how's me one person's goal boards are sitting around saying let's name the new local school the Richard M Nixon school good huh how many none no because because they're aware of history and the Constitution absolutely the sense and who is going out in running for Senate or congressmen and saying I'm gonna be just like Nixon but I'm saying that about Oh Brock Obama no no it was Barry Goldwater again he took us up one night we went up to his apartment he got his diary up and he read it to us about how when he visited Nixon the day before Nixon announced his resignation and Goldwater said what he wrote this out and we have a Xerox of his diary and he said we went in there the congressional leaders Republican leaders and Nixon said well let's see I'm going to be impeached in the house charged in the Senate berry how many votes do I have and 20 now of course he needed he would need 30 plus 34 for acquittal for acquittal and Goldwater says mr. president my count you have four and mine is not one of them and this is the conscience of the Republican Party and what Goldwater told us the reason Nixon left is simple too many lies too many crimes absolutely and I want to thank both of you very much for being here thank you all for being here

Channel: The National Press Club

Views: 17,606

Rating: 4.8095236 out of 5

Keywords: NPC, National Press Club, Carl Bernstein (Author), Bob Woodward (Author), Marvin Kalb, The Kalb Report, Watergate Scandal (Event), Journalism (Film Genre)

Id: 554xlab-u2s

Length: 79min 16sec (4756 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 20 2014