The Face Never Lies with Annie Sarnblad

yay networks and I would miss that that fraction of a second when they swell and I only will know if they've swelled if I've gauged how big they are in the beginning now that would apply to business too because if I pitch something and you're really excited about a project it's it's the give me give me give me give me give me right so it could be in Romance it could be in in um business for me chocolate makes my pupils well I've been told over and over again so you I'm trying not to make my people swell [Applause] [Music] coffee Hello everybody welcome back to happily ever Amber I am so excited I have Annie sarn blad on the podcast today she is she's the human lie detector this is really important I feel like we need this now more than ever in our world for dating our personal growth um business um how about when we just watch a date line I like it's sick that's like sick but like if we watch this and then use what we learn or what we're going to learn today we could be our own little detective so I am super excited to have her on and I can't wait for you guys to hear this [Music] episode thank you so much for coming on the podcast thank you for having me I am so excited I have so many questions but I want to start um kind of from the beginning I want to I want to learn about you and how you got into this field and what inspired you yeah um I usually get those questions at the end where people go how did you get into this but that's it's a good question for the beginning I had a hard childhood and I had a lot of gaslighting at home and one of the things we found with micro Expressions that the people that have sort of an innate natural tendency to read micro Expressions have often grown up in difficult households so there's it's less of a question of them learning something it's more that they haven't unlearned what babies know innately so before the age of two you remember having little kids or little babies and they would scan your face back and forth they look all over your face we train children out of that we train them to look me in the eyes when I speak to you look me in the eyes and we lose that natural ability to do the scanning and to get the whole facial expression what I work with is the language the original language of our species the nonverbal biological language of our species and um I wanted to get out of my house when I was about the age of 14 and I knew I couldn't run away from home I'm not particularly Street Smart so I organized to get I applied for a bunch of scholarships to become become an exchange student and I left when I was 16 and spent the bulk of the next 25 years abroad going to a country going from one country to the next so I spent years of my life not understanding what people were saying while I studied um languages through immersion wow and then I learned to code so I learned to numerically code the it's the 10,000 muscle combinations of human expression and so it's not as quite as complicated as it sounds uh they're divided into action units but I have a certif called facial action coding system certification and you go to a university or a SCH learn it's a private um or not even an organization but it's based on the work of uh Paul Eckman and Wallace freesman who started to categorize facial expressions it was really based on the work of Darwin from the 1800s but as long as people have been writing they've been writing about the universality of facial expressions Darwin was the first one to actually start to categorize that it's so so interesting because when I I watch a lot of Animal Planet and like all the planet shows on on Netflix and I feel like I I see I find myself studying these animals and I just think oh my God we're we're way more connected yes then people even realize just the manorisms of all these different species and how they interact and how they adapt to new environments and how the mothers take care of their babies it's just like for me I'm it probably sounds really nerdy I'm just like my head is like exploded it's well it's it's so interesting and Darwin wrote about canines and apes and I know there's some new study that somebody sent me the other day about all the facial expressions of cats which I haven't I think I saw that yeah I just saw the the headline I haven't actually read it but we do know that for example we human beings when we're scared we pull our upper eyelids way back and that's to gauge our exits so that we can see how do I escape this situation dogs do do it too there's a variety of animals that will do that hard pull back when we're scared so now you're you're teaching right and you have your own kids and the first thing I'm sure you're like these are my subjects I have to like really you know yeah so so I spent um I spent the bulk of my profession working as a strategic adviser so my my work for decades has been mainly focused on making powerful men more powerful and I got to the point in my career where I I love working with with my clients some of them are are brilliant human beings but it's not as meaningful in terms of life's work as I want it to be um so I'm redirecting my focus particularly towards young women so that I can teach them the skills to recognize the red flag so when we get that feeling in our gut that something is off with another human being I want to teach them the science to identify why you're getting that feeling in the exact moment that they're having that conversation oh it's so so powerful to teach I I have a I told you a 13 and a 10-year-old daughter and I have experienced also raising an autistic kid and high functioning but nonetheless she really just misses these social cues and thinking of her going out in the world and being manipulated and and it it it scared me to my core okay so my autistic clients are my best students you bring up that intuition like I'm I'm All About intuition my entire life I feel like it's like my superpower right and I want to I want to instill that in my children and I'm sure so many other people would love that for their kids it's just listening to your body well it's listening to your body and I think certainly My Generation I'm significantly older than you but but even for your generation we were told that our intuition wasn't a thing it was dismissed unless we could prove it with facts we um it it just wasn't a thing I knew in my gut that what I felt was real and and the experiences that I survived I was told well that didn't happen and and sometimes I was told that didn't happen the week after you know it wasn't even that time had elapsed it was just a general reframing of that reality is difficult so we're not we're just going to pretend that something else happened and um I was dismissed as a human being when I was a child as you know your judgmental your you know this is what boys do kind of thing um I wanted to make sure that my children never experienced that so I have raised my children as human light detectors I simplified the entire field of science I didn't change it I just simplified and I looked specifically for the one piece of each expression that's only in that expression so that I could teach it in a way that was faster so people could start to use it immediately and when I say that my autistic students are my best students so my my students I've had a couple mathematicians as well which I actually believe with those particular individuals that they were also on the Spectrum though they were older and un undiagnosed I only take those students if they're very high functioning and if they're good at them mathematical pieces because not you know as you probably know more about autism than I do but there's a huge range of abilities and Specialties and talents and and difficulties but the people that are very very good at pattern recognition learn very fast because it's so specific and so for example I worked with an 8-year-old and I had um I had facial expressions and I took you know 30 facial expressions of somebody showing disgust and I had her color in the main pieces and we looked at the next one you I explained what it looks like and I had her color on color in on my computer by the time we were done she's like yep got that one and then we did anger and then we did sadness and then we did so she gets the patterns and then we move from the still pictures to the videos because you don't you can't really that's why I put the videos on my website I have the videos of each Expressions you I know you've seen them on social media put them there too so that people can not only read my book but but actually really get that sense of what what it looks like live on somebody else's face because it's not useful otherwise but do you find that sometimes like the real crazy people of the world like the sociopaths and they're almost good at tricking you to think it's like the ice cream man right like we go back toide like hey little girl do you want some ice cream do you want some candy but the facial expressions are misaligned with their words and so that if I can teach you how to recognize that that's what your gut is telling you when somebody's going hey nice to see you and they're pulling their upper eyelids back and giving you those crazy eyes that's a problem right right it doesn't match this it do not matching or if I say nice to see you I'm really excited about your promotion at work that's a problem I'd be like uh ding dong so that's the bad bunny rabbit nose and we know and I'm exaggerating I'm doing it repetitively but it can just be that little you know one little twitch while somebody's saying so if you say I hate broccoli okay not going to give you any broccoli at my house that matches that's fine you're talking about something you know what happened at work today okay something bad happened at work today that matches the words and the facial expression match so the reason that my students with autism have seemingly outperformed every other student I've had it's really interesting so I'll only train the children when I'm training the adults to and I don't do this this is why I'm trying to you know set up courses and teach on a wider scale and democratize because I don't don't have time to take on the individual families anymore but when I did I would I would always train the parents too because there's they need to be having these discussions and watching TV together and say what did you see so that they can continue to learn it's like a language if only one person in the family speaks that language it's not so you have to keep practicing and using it so what's really interesting is that when I got to the video clips I would show the parents and the child and I'd say what expression did you just see and the child would say I saw disgust no no no no no the parents would justify because it wasn't intuitive for the parents that that person should be feeling that emotion in that context whereas the child with autism would say but that's wrong this is what they're feeling that's the facial expression so they would look at what somebody is feeling rather than what they should be feeling in that social context wow so they were very very exact and then if you have a child you want to also work on those pieces if you made your sister angry because you are in her space for example and she shows an angry face with a furled brow and the tight lips what do you do what are your choices so two or three choices every time ask her if she's angry ask her if she needs just give her space ask her if she wants to share a toy or a snack you know what are the choices because that's a piece too of understanding how do you fix or solve or soothe yeah does that do those tools and mechanisms do they go across all the platforms of like like even dating or is it it's it's it's just kind of watered down for for the younger kids and then you kind of add more layers for the adults right no that's exactly [Music] it this show is sponsored by better help the holiday season is here it is upon us and I couldn't be more excited but at the same time I tend to get a little holiday Blues it's getting darker really early now I'm feeling like okay I know I'm going to have a lot of expenses there's a lot of gifts to buy I want to make sure that I hit everybody my family doesn't live in the same town as I do so when I see families get together for Christmas carolling or cookie decoration it kind of makes me feel sad but one thing that I could definitely look forward to is my therapy therapy can be my best friend on some weeks and some weeks I have a great session where I know that I will be able to get through these darker moments during the holidays one of my biggest things is when I go to therapy I tend to overthink I overthink and one thing that I love is that through this process of therapy it helps me get me out of my head back into gratitude feeling grounded and I can carry on better help is my go-to place it's entirely online designed to be convenient vent flexible and suitable for your schedule you just fill out a brief questionnaire you get matched with a licensed therapist and you could switch therapist anytime for no additional charge which is great because you may not always align with the first therapist you get but better help allows you to change find your bright spot this holiday season with better help visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com SL [Music] haa so for dating one of the most common questions I get is how can you tell someone's attracted to you yeah right so that would be in the pupil dilation so you and I would sit down and have say we're dating right you and I sit down and if all of a sudden you're starting to feel attraction towards me your pupils will dilate so every time I sit down with you with a new person I'm going to gauge how big there are p are when we start the conversation and I do that because it's a way to train my muscle memory yeah and because when we're talking we we make eye contact then we look away then we make eye contact so your pupils could dilate when I'm looking away and I would miss that that fraction of a second when they swell and I only will know if they've swelled if I've gauged how big they are in the beginning now that would apply to business too because if I pitch something and you're really excited about a project it's it's the give me give me give me give me give me right so could be in Romance it could be in in um business for me chocolate makes my pupils well I've been told over and over again what I'm trying not to make my people swell coffee and that is why I'm drinking tea there we go I'm like every time I see coffee or I smell coffee just the smell I know it's so good sick it's so good I know but it's it's it's the addiction right and that arousal comes from that I want it and I want it now so you get the the swelling in arousal you would get the eyelids half masting so it took me forever to figure that piece out but it's almost like you lower the shades when you're feeling romantic and I I have a hard time taking on demand because it feels so silly but it's this just like lowering your eyelids giving just giving extra there you go giving an extra eyelid yeah it's like when someone's like yeah okay okay exactly that one's that one's a good one so I guess what are what are two things that I could teach my kids or the viewers could teach their kids or learn themselves when it comes that the the the the biggest thing is that facial expression of it's what I call the no face yeah so it it's got three parts it's got the wrinkles next to the nose it's got the nostril Shadows see how that deepens right there and it pulls up the upper lip right so like are you really going to wear that that's that attitude yeah yeah that that not to cut you off I I do that all the time I'm like girls how do you like this this outfit and they're like and I'm like say no more no you showed it with your face so that's the M like I prefer the facial expression instead of the words cuz the words can be really hurtful well the words can be hurtful and the facial expressions plenty specific enough yes it's clear as day yeah and it's biological it actually precedes the thought process so it's just this spontaneous innate deep in our gut in our primitive brain it's this no I don't want to do that I don't want to and so the micro expression is just the little just that little Flicker and if you can teach them that that's the no face but it's also I was trained that it was disgust face and that's correct but if you say to me do you have four hours today to work on this podcast I don't I have other meanings so I'm going to show you the no face it doesn't mean I don't like you it only shows the feelings not the thoughts so with your kids you have to put it in that context but if somebody if you say I want to do this with you do you want to do it with me and they go that's a no and the the problem that I teach my children is when you get this negative no face with kind words that's predatory that's dangerous it's not predatory every time but it's a red flag right it's just so unfortunate though because you see you know all these kids are on social media and so a lot of the predatory stuff that's happening is now happening virtually which is correct it's really hard to to gauge it's like someone can easily trick you but so I'm Swedish um I spent um many of my uh important years high school years um some of my high school years all of my college Years in Sweden got married had two babies there started my career there um we're very comfortable talking about humanity and because of my childhood I was very very specific with my children about what bad people want to do and I really only gave them the bullet points but I use the technical terms bad people want to touch you here yep we don't know why we don't know why they want you to touch them we don't know why they want um they want to touch you there but in general people that are bad are terrified of grown-ups grown-ups who are bad are scared of other grown-ups grownups are bad to Children okay okay okay yes right and so they will use words like I'm going to hurt your mother I'm going to hurt your father if if you tell them this and that is because they are so scared of your parents that they are terrified of your parents knowing so I was very specific with my kids probably too much but it did it did you protect them I I kind of take that approach when it comes to Parenting sometimes I'm like oh maybe that was a little too much or oh the sex talk I didn't need to go there but kids are getting more more sophisticated it's like they come home it's like what's 69 I'm like yeah I mean right hold on let me go Google this on how to explain this or then you just have to like because I feel like if you if you don't explain these certain things to them about whether it's Predators or what happens when just all sorts of different sit you know a big thing in in my house is wearing um um crop tops MH and I said you know you guys can wear all the crop tops you want in the house but when we leave the house unfortunately guys will want to look at girls that are wearing crop tops and you some the wrong guy might look at you and he might have a really bad desire to do something and if I'm not there or you put yourself in vulnerable situation so you just have to be respectful of your body and so it's so it's so hard for me I was very specific about if you're somewhere where everybody's wearing these clothing that's fine right um or it's safer just by sheer numbers I remember one of my daughters getting on a bus and wearing you know me saying at the last second she was going from Boston to New York and I can't remember for the life of me I think it was the first time in the last time she took the bus from Boston to New York but she got out of the car and took her jacket off and I said no no no no no no you can't go into that context with this amount of clothing on so you know just dumpy frumpy big sweatshirts and things where you're in especially when you're isolated right and that's just the world we live in unfortunately yeah um I you know something came up earlier that popped in my head and I'm glad I didn't lose it because that typically happens um people that are so I don't know if stoic is the right word I think of like musk and some of these guys that don't look like they have any like facial expression or you hear them talk and it's not it's not like how you and I really you know me being an actor and and you doing this for a living we really see the Expressions written on our face right what what what's going on is it cuz we talked about autism right or being on this the Spectrum and I and I'm pretty sure um he has it Elan mus has I I believe he's talked about um autism it's a really good question um so we look at somebody's Baseline you know what's their sort of normal behavior and what's that what facial expressions do they show when they're in an average situation what I worry about is this hard pull of the upper eyelids that that somebody maintains because that does show in my experience and the science shows that there's a mental instability there or there's and I recently did an interview where where it was where there was a clip on that and I there were a lot of comments and people were saying no that's trauma so P we pull our upper eyelids back in fear in Surprise and excitement um in shock um we we don't hold it we don't hold this expression and we certainly don't combine it with joy you know the real problem is when you've got trauma and it can be a kind good person that's showing trauma that is not going to go out and hurt people um but the the biggest red flag for me is when somebody shows that trauma and then they show Delight in it because that's not good you shouldn't be combining joy and Trauma or joy and what we would call crazy eyes have you ever been called into the prison systems to analyze no I've been asked to do a lot of things that I wouldn't do so I I have I haven't specifically been called into the prison systems but every every time I've been invited to do law enforcement up until now certainly I've said no across the globe is it just something that is you don't just that the energy of that that world I think there are certain professions and God knows we have um we have people in law enforcement and all kinds of security that are really good people that are doing it for the right reasons there are certain professions that also attract people who are not maybe in it for the right reasons but that are looking for power and the numbers don't add up for me I made a conscious decision to try to focus my work on people that I think are trying to do good and good in the world and not give it to people who might not use it for the right things I certainly would do I mean we have wonderful policemen in the town that I live in I certainly would train them if they wanted me you know if they wanted me to do a workshop for them but um I think it's probably an an environment that I don't necessarily feel very safe in myself of so I've just kept a low profile yeah here I'll just watch it on TV and analyze from my my bed but I mean when I was in Singapore for example I got questions all the time from private security groups and I was I don't know who you are you can't I if I Google you you don't show up you know you're working for like you know the bad guys no way yeah just no way I I want to back up for just a second and say the facial expression PR ceeds the thought process so we make the facial expression and it sends a signal to amydala that this is what that feeling is and so it's how we Mir each other how we human beings connect with each other when we have too much facial paralysis whether it's from a health issue like Advanced stages of Parkinson's or whether it's from Botox it actually freezes that part of the face that's necessary to make certain facial expressions m so Darwin called these our concentrating muscles so we actually need to fur our brows to go into deep problem solving mode and if we can't do that that impedes part of that process because by by doing that with your brows it's sending a signal to your brain to to tell you you need to solve something to solve something to figure something out that's how we that's our figuring out muscles and so they're a piece of anger but they're a piece of just straight up problem solving and so anger is always going to have tight lips that's how you tell if somebody's angry or not the mouth is always going to be tight they have too much Botox or filler in your life we're like What but you'll still see a difference right hopefully they they're not completely paress so it it messes or they're just pouting like are you sad sad is going to be the dimpling of the chin oh okay okay that's where a break it hard is on a chin a I know oh makes it sound right soon as you see it you go oh yeah that's where all of our tenderness is it's it's really the chin is vulnerability so it's a part of sadness it's a part of love because we're vulnerable when we love somebody we could lose them they could get hurt we could get hurt um and it's a part of empathy if you tell me something that that yeah it's you know what I'm thinking in my head my when you know like the babies are little their chin starts shaking and you're you're just like a honey yeah it's so cute but they're so sad right so one of the ways I teach when I'm working with little kids is I'll take a YouTube video which which is like a compilation of babies crying and they always do and you watch that pattern and you just focus on that area of the face and you see 20 different babies doing it and your brain really registers oh that's the pattern that's where it is on the face it's so simple yet it's it's it's fascinating and so sadness would show in the brow too it would be a tenting of the eyebrow and this is what I call the line of Sorrow you can see it you know my wrinkles I keep cuz they I use my to teach and so you get this diagonal line going straight down there and that I can't do it entirely on demand but the inner arise will form that triangle of sness yeah so there's all these different pieces but all you really have to do is look at the chin you don't you can ignore the other pieces because that's proof enough and Botox helps so Botox would help with depression that the theory is that it helps with depression because one of the one of the reasons is that it stops us from ruminating in that problem solving something's wrong something's wrong something's wrong it's like putting a brain on pot something's really wrong oh is it really is it really that big of a problem uh oh so it's botex I I I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you all the benefits but I do know that I have um friends and loved ones that have found great relief from migraines uh have found some relief from depression because it kind of pulls you out of that hamster wheel of this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong and the reason that the brow of problem solving and the brow of Ang anger is the same is because anger also has that peace and Paul Eckman writes about this in his books he's brilliant and he writes about micro Expressions um in an academic way that I never could but he's if you're really interested in the field he's a great resource but he talks about the um anger being a piece of anger has that problem solving there's an obstacle in the way of what I want right that makes sense yeah for [Music] sure so the holidays are approaching and I am so excited but at the same time I also get really stressed out because there's so much going on my family has so many activities we have work events we have charity events the schedule is just packed with really fun exciting things everyone wants to cut back on errands and spending time in the checkout lines this time of year so skip that extra grocery store trip and instead get fresh ingredients and delicious re recipes delivered with hellofresh just pick your meal decide on a delivery date and sit back just like always hellofresh ingredients travel from the farm to your door that is so amazing so you know that they're so fresh I love that and everything comes pre-portioned so you can just get to cooking so one of my greatest memories growing up was cooking holiday dinners with my nana we used to spend hours in the kitchen cooking all day it was amazing and this is the same type of tradition that I want to create with my girls and this is exactly what hellish does it gives me an option to be able to bring in these fresh ingredients that I know are coming straight from the farm to my doorstep and I get to cook with my friends and I don't have to get stressed out about going to the grocery store I just know that when I open the box everything that I need is going to be right there so London and Riley and I can just get our hands dirty and start cooking and it is so exciting and not to mention the girls and I have the biggest sweet tooth so ordering hellofresh gives us the option to be able to pick and choose meals and desserts just that have a little bit healthier Vibe so we don't feel so guilty when we have dessert with all of our meals go to hellofresh.com free and use code haa free for free breakfast for Life One breakfast item per box while subscription is active that's free breakfast for life at hellofresh /ae with code haa free America's number one meal [Music] kit on a lighter note I think this could be really interesting your your approach um for educators because teachers spend so much time with our children you know yeah done workshops for teachers and camp Camp counselors yeah very attached to my to the camp that I grew up with going to and that my daughters have gone to oh really what camp do you mind me Brown ledge where's it's up in Vermont cester my my girls go to camp in uh North Carolina nice so yeah we're they're big sleep away camp people which is unusual for the west coast to go that far but that's great because these some of these kids that that do go to camp at least I know for the one that my daughters go to you know there's kids there that are coming from all different backgrounds all different situations and and sometimes they they really look to camp for freedom and to just forget about the problems that they're having at home and and I imagine yes you don't you you see it right when they show up you see the relief you may see a moment of reflection of is Mom and Dad okay at home or is Mom okay so I I well look that I mean that's what it was for me um my one of my daughters is named after my bunkey that I I talked to her I still talk to my monkey almost every day you know we're 52 years old um yeah I'm I'm very and the women that have supported me in writing this book and being truthful and writing my you know it's Diary of a human lie detector it's this is this is my diary oh okay and the women that have held my hand through this process of I'm insane to publish this right right this is insanity and that you know they've said things like I've never been more sure of anything in my life um so I have had that support from my you know from the family that I created with with my friends uh when I teach counselors and Junior counselors it's mainly focused on recognizing distress on children's faces right and conflict to see if there's conflict between the this is a Girls Camp between the girls that you can intervene quickly and kind of solve things before it gets to because these kids are away from their families and with their cabin mees complete strangers for like you know 3 to six weeks up to six weeks you know right and for those of us that that that camp is a good experience it's truly EXT it can be extremely healing and extremely good for us and create these lifelong friendships cuz 24/7 you know you can't hide who you are I mean I I never knew that my daughter who has you know panic disorder and anxiety it's the one place that she goes and she's free and it's I I'm I'm so it's provides relief for her yes you know from living in La dealing with the chaos dealing with the anxiety you know there's a there's a layer of learning disabilities and so it's not having to learn multiplications it's just it's freedom and that's it's freedom and it's silly and and when you are your true self and people love you anyway cuz you just can't hide who you are for that duration of time and they see you when you're Moody they see you when you're happy they see you when you're on your period right exactly and they all on their period for at the same time right God God bless those counselors God bless those counselors but when you feel loved and you've shown your real self you it fills your cup in a way that it has that nothing else does because we only really feel loved when we feel seen mhh so this book it's coming out yeah it's right it's in my bag ooh I'm so excited yes guys this is the book it is this is such a cool cover I'm really digging this okay and you know what I love the flame that's that's no that's my illustrator she's amazing she's like let's just put a little fire in there cuz it's Saucy okay this is amazing I am definitely going to lock myself in my room and read this tonight guys go pick up one of these books where can you purchase um anywhere books are sold okay so Amazon's really easy but any bookstore I support my local bookstores too they're they're wonderful are you going to be doing a little book tour and talking to people and yeah I absolutely Ely am and where can they see if they want to go see you in person or so I'm not doing public inperson events yet we are working on offering online classes to teach oh that's great but we haven't we're not finished yet yeah yeah so that's really exciting and last thing I'll ask where can the audience or listeners or viewers um find you on socials so everything's just under my name Annie sblood and if you look up my website Annie s blood you can actually look at the little videos that show me making the Expressions so you can work on learning those yourself see that's the one great thing about the internet we have access like there's so much negativity but we have access to good information that will help improve people's lives y these little like everyday things that could help build life skills you could teach your kids and I love that love that to and I would just say trust your gut yeah you know you don't need to the science is great but you don't need to understand the science to know that this is your primitive brain this is these are our survival skills it's all connected if your nervous system says you're in a danger situation get out MH you got to bring implement this into our uh education system yeah you really do um thank you Annie for coming on my pleasure I appreciate it I'm in shock wait this is the shock face you have to pull your eyes back that's what I learned today guys I just feel like that conversation with Annie blew my mind I lit when I say I'm in shock I'm literally in shock I feel like this is like the the the diary of the human lie detector this is like the secret to understanding human beings and we all need this in the world so we could use this it doesn't matter what you do or who whether you're married or single this book could can apply to everything so go out get yourself Annie's new book I'm super excited to dive into this oh my gosh my kids are going to they're screwed everyone's screwed anyways thank you for tuning in on today's episode um please subscribe wherever you get your podcast also don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and I will see you next episode yay Networks

Channel: Ambyr Childers

Views: 2,895

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Id: Ix-CuGopVbg

Length: 38min 32sec (2312 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 27 2023