The Enneagram: Harmless Personality Test or New Age Tool? With Alexa Cramer

foreign [Music] podcast where we equip Christians to identify the core beliefs of historic Christianity discern its counterfeits and proclaim the gospel with Clarity kindness and truth and we have such a great episode for you today I just finished talking with Alexa Kramer about the Enneagram it's been a long time since we've done an episode on the Enneagram and I just want to encourage everyone who's watching or listening to go back into the archives and listen to the episode that I did with Marsha Montenegro is really the first time I talked about the Enneagram publicly and I've really learned a lot about it since and Alexa has done a lot of research in this topic and there's so many highlights for me from this episode where she talks about some of the ways that sin and the self is talked about in the Enneagram how do we answer some of the things people might say if they're really into the Enneagram they might say well it's really worked for me it's it's improved my life I I find it as a way to help diagnose my sin it helps me become a better person so talking through all of those and Alexa said something that I wrote down because it was so profound and this is just going to be a paraphrase because I was writing so quickly but she said something that really hit me she said the enemy will always make sure that there's something that's working in one area of your life so he can pour poison into another area so I would just really encourage you to keep an open mind as you listen to this episode especially if you're someone who uses the Enneagram we're not against you we're not going to be attacking anybody just some things for you to pray and about and consider um and so Alexa shared with us who are some of the popular Christian teachers and who influenced them it's a very eye-opening episode and I thought that you're going to get a lot out of it I certainly got a lot out of it so uh here's Alexa Kramer well Alexa so great to have you on the podcast for anyone who's unfamiliar with you in the work that you do with Mama Bear apologetics just introduce yourself to us and let us know uh what you're all about sure um I'm a mom a stay-at-home mom and I volunteer with Mama Bear apologetics I'm a contributing writer and I do some other things um but I'm just someone who's really passionate about apologetics I love that I love that you are a stay-at-home mom who's passionate about apologetics we need many many more stay-at-home moms who are passionate about apologetics because I'm as I'm sure you've experienced you're you are the apologist to your kids like you're the one who's introducing these topics and talking them through so very thankful for you and I'm really thankful for a recent art series of articles that you did at Mama Bear about the Enneagram this was a lot of research that was involved in this and I just wanted to have you back on the show because um I did a podcast episode about the Enneagram probably a couple of years now with my friend Marcia Montenegro and at the time I didn't really want to do an episode on the Enneagram I didn't want to talk about the Enneagram because I saw it all over social media I saw Progressive Christians using it but I also saw Christians who are theologically solid saying hey I'm a number whatever Wing whatever and I just thought okay I it's just not I'm not going to get into that fight right that's just not going to be my Lane I'm going to step into but Marcia really persuaded me to talk about it and because she was saying there's these things people don't know about the history things they don't know about it's actual veracity and things like that and so what was so interesting in that episode and I encourage our viewers and listeners to go back and listen to that because while I was on with Marcia I really wasn't convinced but about halfway through when she's talking all of a sudden I'm like okay this is this is bad we need to know about this we need to be talking about this and so I just want to say off the bat if anybody's listening and maybe you like the Enneagram we are not going to be attacking you we just want to share some information for you to pray about and consider as followers of Christ as with anything that we're going to be using um as a grid or even almost like as a world view tool through which we see ourselves or the world or God or our own sin or whatever it might be so Alexa without any further Ado let's just begin with talking about what the Enneagram even is I mean some people might just be like what are they even talking about so what is the Enneagram so a lot of people think of the Enneagram as a personality test um we can talk about why it's not really a personality test but it's basically a diagram with nine points on it and each point has a list of traits associated with it and so the idea is supposedly everybody um can identify with one main number and that's your number your entire life and so once you find your number the Enneagram becomes like a map and it helps guide you into becoming a basically becoming a better you or if you're listening to a Christian they might say it's going to guide you to your path um to God to yourself it's kind of one and the same thing um but it's it's kind of sneaky because um it it feels like it works and there's psychological reasons why um it's pretty manipulative but um so I don't want anyone to ever feel embarrassed because I when I first encountered it I thought this thing like this chart knew me so it's it's not about being gullible or foolish or anything it just it there's reasons why it really feels like it works um but the problem is that when you start using it it's um it's planting these ideas that are they're not just not biblical ideas they're anti-biblical ideas and I think it's people their worldview starts to change Without Really realizing it yeah yeah okay that's that's a good start there um but I'd love to before we dig a Little Deeper tell us about your personal interaction with the Enneagram because you just mentioned that when you found it you felt like this test knew you and you know I I had friends who were kind of into it and I don't think I ever took an official test but everybody diagnosed me as a certain number and I remember reading the the you know whatever the paragraphs are that describe that number and I thought wow that really sounds a lot like me so I get that too I mean yeah it's definitely something that people feel works and we're going to talk more about that because that's really something that persuades people quite a bit but I'll just give you all a little hint there are a lot of things that quote unquote work that are not of God and not holy so we're going to talk about that but Alexa what's your story with the Enneagram and your interaction with it and why why you kind of felt like you wanted to speak out about it and write about it sure I encountered it a few years ago with friends and everybody started talking about this thing called the Enneagram and we were all at at dinner was like a kind of like a reunion of girls that I went to church with growing up um and so I'm like well I'm gonna take this thing so right there at dinner I took the test on my phone um and it pegged me as a six and then all my friends were like oh my gosh Alexa you're such a six yeah I was still a little bit skeptical like based on the traits um until I listened to a podcast that was another person another six and she was telling her story of something that she experienced in childhood and I was like I was that kid that's me and so I was just blown away so then I was like okay so this thing is you know legit and it was just kind of for fun for me um but this was around the time that I was experiencing a lot of anxiety so the sixes sin is fear so on the Enneagram each number has a sin it's redefined but they called us in um that it's like you're it's how you see the world it drives and motivates everything you do and so this test pegged me as a six and I was experiencing a ton of anxiety I was going through a severe time of doubt I know Elisa you have no idea what that's like right um and um so it wasn't until the Lord kind of rescued me from my doubt and I started rebuilding my faith that um I I started having a weird feeling about it um and all the people around me were just enthralled with the Enneagram like they're they're using the numbers like in everyday language um and I just something didn't sit right so uh I'll make a long story short eventually I came to your podcast episode with Marcia oh and I don't think I knew that wow that was the first time I learned about like the history and I was like oh my gosh it kind of blew my mind so then I started following my Marsha and reading all her articles on it um and so it would have just been on my heart for a long time before like a couple years before I proposed to Hillary Ferrera with Mama Bear apologetics that maybe we should write a series on this for moms because it's very popular among Millennial women young moms yeah um so that's that's wow that's so amazing I don't think I knew that and but you know one of the things that has really been so encouraging to me over the past however long it's been since I did that episode with Marcia is out of all the podcast episodes I've ever done that one I think was the most I would say persuasive to people you know I produce content that makes some people angry it makes some people happy but this one really I received so much feedback from people and I'm so thrilled to know that and I praise God and give all the glory and honor to him for that um but that's so encouraging to me because I even had a someone I know tell me that they listened to that episode and they were like 90 episodes into a Enneagram podcast that they were hosting and she said she repented she took down the podcast deleted all the episodes isn't that amazing and I've received so much feedback like that where people and I think I wondered if the reason it was persuasive is because it's probably the only podcast episode that I have up where I actually became persuaded on air with my guest it was like okay yeah so I don't know if maybe it was disarming in that way so I'm so thrilled to know that I'm very excited to know that and you mentioned that the the Enneagram numbers almost become like the everyday language and a good friend of mine was very frustrated because she went to a small group that was women only it was a women's small group at her church and instead of opening the Bible instead of saying okay we're going to study this passage or something like that they went around and asked everybody what their Enneagram number was and so my friend of course as it's going around the room she's she's already knows all this stuff and she's not buying it so she's thinking what do I do how do I I don't want to like be the party pooper and throw a wet blanket on the room but I have to say something so she just really respectfully and nicely said well you know I just don't really think I'm a number I don't think that you know I don't think there's scientific validity to the Enneagram and I'm concerned about some of its historical Origins so I just I don't think I can be pinned down to a number so immediately everybody started saying well your number this then your number whatever it would be that that would say something like that and I my friend made such an interesting Insight she said you know it's like every it's almost functions like a world view after a while because the whole way everybody then saw her from then on was filtered through that Enneagram filter and it became very difficult for her to have genuine relationships and um you know with the other women in that group so there are definitely some almost idolatry issues that I think can come up with the Enneagram where people well you mentioned that they'll list a sin with the number and in a way and I've heard and I've heard people say this who followed the Enneagram that it helps them diagnose their sin and as Christians I'm thinking that's the holy spirit's job you know that is the job of the holy spirit so we don't want something that's going to become a counterfeit Holy Spirit but did you have any thoughts on that oh yeah I I think it's a I think it can become a holy spirit replacement and then they just kind of add the Christian language on top of it because so the Enneagram is supposed to guide you convict you um what are they what are the other roles of the Holy Spirit I mean it it claims all of these roles that that is the holy spirit's meant to have in your life um which I I was going to mention at some point um one of the studies that I highly recommend to help protect against um this whole the whole thing the whole ideology is studying the Trinity and getting to know the roles of the persons of God um because it really then it's very evident that it's like a holy spirit replacement wow that's okay so that's that's good to know and there's some really great resources maybe we'll list some of those in the podcast notes or in the description I don't really do podcast notes anymore per se but I just put everything in the description there so you mentioned something when you were defining it um you mentioned that it's sort of like a path to your true self and I know that there's also this concept in the Enneagram Circles of false self being sort of the word that's used for sin right talk about false self because this is actually something that is common in New Age It's actually also common with people Progressive Christians Like Richard Rohr who talks about your false self versus your true self talk about that a little bit and maybe what could be deceptive for Christians in that concept yeah I I think that's one of the things that bothers me the most about the Enneagram is this whole true false self concept now something that needs to be said I think is that you cannot use the Enneagram without buying into the idea that you have a true and a false self like it's inherent within any use of it so whether it's a new Ager or a Christian that's teaching it um that idea that's the way it works so the idea is that your personality and even your sin patterns anything that is like outward you um is not the real you and that um you start out as good and uh you have this Divine Essence inside you that's your true self is is you're you're always um connected with God and your false self is just as you go through childhood you experience traumas and you develop um you you're trying to fit into the world so you're developing personality traits in order to fit into this world that's oppressive to you um and even your sin patterns they're just responses to whatever's going on in your life and so that the Enneagram is supposed to help you break free of that and get back to the just that true just being that just being you um and so sin is well sin's a part of your false self although I have heard Richard Rohr I like to call him The Roaster um I have heard him say Well you can sin in your true self cause he you know he never contradicts himself he's he's very consistent right note this sarcasm that's dripping from Alexa right now because Richard were I just have to pop in and make a comment here I'm gonna let you finish but this is something that is so evident to me as I read Richard Rohr is he's constantly saying you should not be dualistic in your thinking and what he means by that is making these statements that are either or he said that's simplistic thinking that's dualistic thinking you need to become more enlightened and start thinking in the both and and yet his either or statements are everywhere everything with him isn't either or so that's what Alexa is talking about with the consistency there with the roster yeah he'll he'll say that um you can still well he said one time as far as I know that you can sin in your true self but you will recognize it and you'll apologize for it um but that doesn't make a ton of sense based on everything else I've read about the true and the false self because it's the it's the you sin out of fear or out of a response to something it's never um it's never about breaking God's righteous law it's just you're kind of doing it to yourself to protect your your true self [Music] hey everyone well I hope you're really loving this conversation with Alexa Kramer on the Enneagram and all the updates on that conversation want to take a moment and let you know about our first sponsor today and that is good ranchers now this is the time to subscribe to good ranchers which is American Meat delivered right to your door we're talking grass-fed beef high quality better than organic chicken wild caught Seafood Heritage breed pork the best meat you can possibly buy run by Christians and they support great causes so there's this is a no-brainer good ranchers is awesome we love it in our house but this is this is the time to subscribe because coming October 6th you are going to lose out on a couple of amazing deals that are going on right now so that's this coming Friday so this is the week guys this is the week so what you're gonna get if you subscribe between now and October 6th is two years of free ground beef and you're gonna price lock it's a price lock guarantee so your your price for your subscription will not go up for two years okay so that's that's an amazing deal two years of price lock two years of free ground beef it's a no-brainer go to goodranchers.com use my code Elisa to get 25 off your first box as well in addition to all those other things so goodranters.com use my code Elisa for 25 off your first box [Music] foreign [Music] this concept of Divine Essence that's in you I'm curious if because obviously there's sort of more new age materials that are written on the Enneagram but then there's some quote unquote Christian ones that are trying to maybe baptize the concept into Christian culture or into the church would they use that phrase Divine Essence or is it how would they work that out because when I think of Divine Essence I'm thinking of panentheism so and Richard Ward The Roaster I just I feel like I need to call them that now because it's kind of it's sort of affectionate as well like I'm praying for the rooster but um but he's openly you know pan entheist teaching that um the the universe of course was created by God but he's he teaches that when God created the universe he poured his Spirit into matter uh infusing all matter with his sort of divine I don't know what word he specifically uses I don't have the quote right in front of me but basically his spirit and he calls this the universal Christ it's in every molecule of created matter and so therefore you have within you this divine Essence will pan in theism teaches you know pan means all theism is God and means in so God is in all all is in God that's the view do you find that Concept in some of the maybe more Christian resources that are trying to pass as Evangelical or how might they they word something like that um I've seen in the book the road back to you so that is um that is a very popular yeah Christian published Enneagram book um they quoted a uh I don't know I think the person they were quoting was a new Ager but he uses um Essence and talks about your your like I forget the wording but it's like this bright shim it's shimmering shimmering Essence oh wow um so it really depends on who you're listening to but it is important to know that pretty much every Christian Enneagram author podcast or teacher influencer they've all been influenced by Richard Rohr yes so that's important his thinking I mean they hold him in such high regard so um even uh Beth McCord who she has a huge Enneagram following she's the uh you're a neogram coach um she doesn't talk a lot about Richard Rohr but the first book that got her into the Enneagram was his book this the sacred and neogram and she said that she was just pouring over it and so that's what brought her into the Enneagram world so yeah they've all been influenced by him it's in there but it's this is important yeah I think this is really important for our viewers and listeners to understand it there may be people who have come to this podcast episode based on the topic maybe you're not familiar with some of the stuff we've talked about on the podcast in the past so maybe you're unfamiliar with Richard Rohr but you need everyone needs to understand how important it is to understand what Richard War believes and teaches Richard Rohr denies individual salvation he teaches that he teaches a form of universalism called perennialism which is the idea that religions should remain distinct but they're all coming from and going back to the same Divine source so Richard Ward does not believe God's going to punish anybody in hell in fact he outright denies the the penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus he says outright there was no sacrifice needed so he really denies the the core Christian Gospel and it's all over his writing so when the Enneagram people that you're reading may be they're Christians but if they're influenced by Roar especially as as it would relate to the Enneagram which has so much to do about what we think about ourselves and our sin nature and who we are uh you know this is very important to understand that influence coming in even to Christian teachers so I appreciate you bringing that up Alexa about the Divine Essence because I'm thinking about like that would have to have implications for what we think about the doctrine of original sin right it's not my false self I have a fallen nature the Bible says that by Nature I am a child of Wrath that my sin separates me from God and it's not just about finding my true self or that shimmering essence or whatever that that the holy spirit is not and this is this might surprise some people and I don't mean it that way I'm just telling you what the Bible says but we are not children of God until we trust in Christ for our Salvation Jesus said to them it is given the to who believed on his name I think it was Jesus who said this if not it might be Paul but um I'd have to look up the verse but it the Bible says that to those who believe in his name he's given the right to be called children of God so although all humans have been made in the image and likeness of God and because of that have inherent dignity and value and worth we've all distorted that image through sin and so it's not a matter of just finding our true self over our false self but recognizing that we are sinners and we need to repent and believe that was Jesus message repent and believe the gospel so any thoughts on that before we move to the next question yeah um that reminded me of how how the Christian Enneagram teachers will interchange um the true self and the false self with the old self in the new self so they'll use those terms in the same sentence and mean the same thing and so it's kind of sneaky if you're not listening for it if you're not aware um those those concepts are completely different because the the old self and the new self the new self is um you've died to your sin and and it was Christ that brings you to life so yeah yeah yeah that's good okay well why should people care about this I mean the Enneagram kind of comes off as just this personality test it's just innocent almost I've heard people say it's just kind of like a parlor trick you know you take the test and it's kind of fun so are we making too big of a deal about this is it really more innocent than we think um why do you think this is relevant to talk about even for people who already say look I reject the Enneagram why do we need to realize the seriousness of this yeah I think it is um I think it's really manipulative and like a lot of times we talk about like especially as apologists we like to talk about how to discern truth from lies but the other angle on it is that the enemy is manipulative and that's a little bit different um and I think uh people might there are a lot of people that saw the shape of the uneagram and it reminded them of a pentagram and so they're like nope right that's evil that thing is evil and thank God that they you know stayed away from it that's great but if you're not aware of the manipulative techniques that are used to make it seem like it works then those kinds of deceptions can happen in a different area that you're not aware of yeah that's good so I think it's just important for all people to be aware of how we can be deceived and manipulated [Music] all right we're pressing the pause button so I can let you know about another one of our sponsors I love this company this is Carly Jean Los Angeles which is a Los angeles-based clothing company started by Carly Jean bran and she's a wife she's a mom she's a Christian she's pro-life and the clothes are adorable they're so cute and honestly kind of Addicting if I'm honest I'm wearing a t-shirt today from their Basics line just a nice classic cotton t-shirt that I wear all the time I in fact I get com compliments all the time when I'm wearing Carly jeans clothes I've been wearing them a lot when I speak and of course on the podcast and they have an app they have this really cool app where if you download the app you get sometimes Early Access to sales that they're running you get to sneak peek on some of the new lines that they're coming out with which they're constantly coming out with new clothing lines such cute stuff for fall in right now yummy sweaters love love love Carly Jean Los Angeles so go to Carly Jean losangeles.com use my code Elisa for 20 off your first order that's carlyjeanlos angeles.com use the code Elisa for 20 off your first order [Music] well let's talk about some of those manipulative tactics because the one thing I always hear from people is you know it works it works I become a better person or it's really helped me in my marriage or it's helped me in my relationship it's helped me relate better with my kids and my co-workers it's helped me achieve more in my job it just really works what but share with us some of those manipulative tactics that you're talking about okay so well the fact that it works um it's it's more of your what's going on in your mind you're doing more work than you think you are than the Enneagram so um and I do think that the enemy will allow something will allow something to improve in your life if he can so poison in an area you're not aware of okay that is so important what you just said that is so and say it again the enemy will be happy to allow you to improve in an air life if he can sow poison in an area you're not paying attention to oh my goodness that is good stuff right there that's why objective truth when we cling to what's true it's protective it protects us because we don't know what we don't know and so if we can if we base how we view the world and we if we're taking everything every thought captive whatever we're allowing to take space in our minds and we subject that to what's objectively true then we we are protected by that and when we step out of that we're just trying to um base what we believe based on what resonates with us or what feels true we get ourselves into a spot where we're we're just ripe for being manipulated so good so so tell us about the tactics that's so good good stuff so one is there's a concept called outs and it's used by anyone that's that's doing any kind of psychological trickery so it could be like a magician or it could be Sinister like uh someone who's like a con artist a psychic reading so I might mention psychics a few times because they use these tactics okay and I'm not trying to say that there's nothing Supernatural going on ever but they're they definitely use um these these things we're going to talk about today too so um the concept of outs there's an old magician's trick where they'll start out their show uh with a deck of cards and they'll have somebody tell them um like name a card and they'll name the card now the magician it's great if they name the card that's on top of the pile because then they can blow everybody's minds they start out the show with a bang but if they get the if they say a different card then they already have a plan they have 51 outs every other card isn't out it's an Escape Route and they will just turn it into a joke and make everybody laugh so it's like a win-win scenario for them so the Enneagram it's full it's full of outs and win-win scenarios because it's very malleable so however you respond um it can be kind of it can work around with to make sure that it works for you because your one main number but you actually relate to five numbers out of the nine but you go to a different number when you're in health or in growth you go to a completely different number when you're in stress then you have Wing numbers on either side of your number and you can take the traits from either of those wings as well and so you really you're relating to at least more than half the numbers on the chart and I haven't even talked about the scientific side of it where those numbers are not they're not really distinct um it doesn't type people accurately scientifically but if we push that aside okay we can go to that next yeah okay I don't know that that's more J men and Walt's World okay I've got all the science on that um but yeah so there's like it's Escape Routes everywhere so that's I have a little list here so then you've got a concept called the rainbow ruse which is a real it's a name of an actual tactic technique that like people like psychics and mediums will use and I noticed this immediately and then I'm reading a book with all these um it's exposing these kinds of tactics and I was like the Enneagram does that the Enneagram does that oh wow um so the unique or the rainbow ruse is uh it's a technique where the whoever's doing your reading or the book will have these statements um where it attributes two opposite characteristics to you um in a statement that covers all possibilities but it feels really specific to you so here you want me to give you an example yeah please okay so Elisa tell me if you can relate to this okay you can be a considerate person quick to help someone out but if you're honest with yourself you've got a bit of a selfish streak in you as well that this is true this would be true figured out yeah I wrote that specifically for you um no so if you look at the Enneagram there's opposite traits everywhere like even I heard um there's a YouTube Enneagram coach who said that the your wing numbers their like in tension with one another because they they're opposite traits and it's like you have this internal battle and so it's it's everywhere but this is actually a tactic to make something feel like it's talking about you about you yeah because it's kind of pretty General I mean I I can't think of anybody who that statement wouldn't apply to that you just said yeah you know especially like when we're having a bad day or I'm kind of cranky I might take the more selfish route versus you know the considerate route and when I'm having a good day I'd be more that just means that you're on your growth track or on your stress track you see yeah you're just exhibiting these different traits yeah that's yeah that's it's kind of like you know you you um see these TV shows about mentalists who claim to speak to the dead and I again we know that demonic exists and there's a really good chance in many of those cases they're talking to Demons or Spirits or something along those lines I don't I'm not discounting that but a lot of times these people are just really good at saying something kind of General enough to get you to to cue that that applies to you and then kind of start narrowing in on it so would you say the Enneagram is is operates a little bit like that oh it's everywhere okay honestly um when you start coming to it with that mindset of all the statements that they're that they're using are so General like large groups of people will fit into every every personality statement that they make or story that they tell um when you come to it like that in having to do research for this watching the videos and reading the books became very boring because they're not saying anything meaningful but if you're looking at it for yourself your brain is filling in all of this meaning and information that's another concept that's in this book I have a quote I could read from it um but you're they use these generalized words and then your brain fills in experiences and memories and so it really feels like it's talking about you because you don't realize how much your own mind is filling in WoW for it wow that's fascinating so there's one tactic you mentioned uh before we went on the air called the claims of ancient Origins what's that one about yes so if you were to go to a tarot reading a lot of times the the person will have a Tarot cards and they'll rough them up and then they'll make a story about how ancient these are because it's it's known that if people feel like that they're tapping into some kind of ancient wisdom that they'll trust it more and I've I read that and my mind was blown because I had already known that the idea that the Enneagram is ancient was made up so um and in a video on YouTube you can watch uh the man who created the personality types for the uniagram that he did that in the 70s so the personality part of the Enneagram was added in the 70s which is not not ancient um but he admits that that he made up he and his mentor Oscar achazo made up the idea that the Enneagram is ancient because they trust it more why and you're just laughing about admitted this they admitted this yeah you can watch it anybody can go go on YouTube and find that video it's like the origin of the Enneagram with Claudio naranjo and yeah he talks about it right there so I it's just another way um to just try and get it to seem like it's this this ancient wisdom Richard Burr still he knows that it's I think he in in one book he talks about how he knows that it was kind of developed in the early 1900s the original Enneagram but that he still has on his website that it has roots in ancient Christianity and Judaism and it's not true wow that's fascinating so so what is the history we covered this a little bit with Marsha in the past episode but in case anyone hasn't heard that one um what is the history of the Enneagram as far as you know you hear a lot of people say oh it's rooted in the occult so fill us in on that okay so originally the Enneagram was not a personality thing um it was developed by George gerjiff in the early 1900s and he was just a Mystic and he used the Enneagram to like he believed it held all the laws of the universe it was very mystical he used it to create musical scales and dances um and eventually um a man named Oscar achazo learned about this Enneagram and started adding what he called ego fixations to the nine numbers and those are kind of like like the sins that are associated um with each point and then his student Claudio naranjo he added the personality types um via automatic writing tell us what that is so automatic writing is Spirit contact you go into a trance and you summon a spirit and you let them write move your hand and write for you so I like to say it's like okay worst case scenario the teachings that we have for the uneagram today come from demons yeah but even the best case scenario for someone who's skeptical about that the best case scenario is some man went put himself into a trance and just like moved his hand around and said ah this this will this will tell you who you are it's like it's either way it's not legitimate yeah wow that's interesting it's almost too sneaky to be just him moving his hand though isn't it I I kind of lean toward the uh the first option there but but I but it's true even if it wasn't influenced by a spirit at all and it's just you know some random thing it's not based in real research it's not based in anything that's scientifically valid or or anything like that now just to play devil's advocate for a minute here there are some things we do that have their origins in sketchy things right even you know pagans invented the fork or something so our Forks Pagan you know that's kind of always the the discussion or there might be some something that originated one way and then we celebrate it but we don't celebrate it according to that original meeting do you think there's some validity to that in fact there's actually a a logical fallacy called the genetic fallacy which is the act of rejecting or accepting an argument on the basis of its origin rather than on its content so is that what we're doing here with the the Enneagram I could hear a skeptic maybe saying they're not even a skeptic but just somebody saying hey you know we we do things that have sketchy Beginnings we don't mean it that way so is this just the genetic fallacy where we're not actually analyzing the content but just saying we reject it because of this origin yeah I have two things to say about that so the first is I don't think that the genetic fallacy is valid here because we're talking about um it is the content that we're worried about it's the content that came from divination and Christians are forbidden from engaging divination um and so I think that that immediately invalidates any use of it just on its own but even if we were to just look at the at what the teachings are if we're to analyze it scientifically it doesn't hold up in any other realm either so other than potential experience what what feels like it works um any other realm of of study or knowledge it doesn't work so yeah and plus you have the origin which kind of just is the big cherry on the top for for you know being skeptical about the Enneagram so I know you mentioned that this isn't mainly your area of study but do you have just off the top of your head any of the kind of scientific data or just a couple of broad points that might help us even understand it from because I remember Marcia saying that she said it's not scientifically valid and I wouldn't even know how somebody would go about figuring out what kind of a personality test would be scientifically valid versus not so do you have any information on that at all or um yeah a little bit I'm trying I'm trying to remember like the studies I was trying to read and understand yeah um like the actual data so um it does make claims that can be tested like certain uh personality traits and so the groupings of the traits are not they don't actually fit types of people like the way that the traits are grouped in each number they overlap so this which makes sense because you're you're that's why it feels like it works because they're not really distinct personality types yeah um and so there have been no tests that validate it there's one um that the Enneagram Institute conducted and so they used that to say that they they've had it scientifically validated but what happened in the test is um it didn't come out right and so they they just switched certain traits to a different number or something I might be missing that up but um Jay mendenwalt has that all written on his on his own okay and is there maybe there's a we can put that resource in the description as well because I know he's done quite a bit of research in that area it kind of sounds to me a little bit like the cosmological constant for anybody who studies apologetics and the cosmological argument when I think if I'm saying this right it's been a while but Einstein discovered um it was a mathematical equation that he fudged the the numbers a little bit because he just couldn't accept the the outcome of it oh gosh Frank Turk would know this off the top of his head I'll have to go back and look at it but it's it's something like when we don't like what we find we just kind of fudge the numbers a little bit and make it work so that sounds like that's what happened um well who are the main Christian influencers that we would need to be aware of who are promoting this and again guys please we're not saying these people are not Christians we're not saying they're Heretics we're not saying they're going to hell um but but it is good for us to be aware of where this is all coming from and maybe um just to be better discerners as far as you know what what material we take in and who these people are influenced by so who would you say are the main Christian authors or influencers who are promoting the Enneagram particularly within the Evangelical Church okay um Beth McCord for sure uh Ian cron he's got the typology podcast uh there's Elizabeth Bennett these are the ones that I can think of at the top of my head yeah and Ian cron I I have to do a little bit more uh research on him but there's a lot of overlap with him with Progressive Christianity I don't know exactly off the top of my head what his theology is but there is definitely overlap I've I've seen overlap with him with Progressive Christianity and so um just be aware of that mentored by the Royster oh he was mentored by Richard Rohr well there you go so yeah man and these are the people who are saying this is Christian yeah wow yeah okay well that's good to know that's important to to know as well so um you know you've mentioned some things about the enemy planting subtle ideas and you know just the enemy is manipulative he's the listen he's the father of lies he's been at it since the beginning I even think about in the Garden of Eden when he came to to Eve and he said did God really say and then what's interesting is what what happens after he says that is that he first questions what God has actually said but then he then there's like a Twist that happens there's an omission and an audition and then he just twists the whole thing he says oh you will not you know you will not surely die so he's questioning it he's twisting it a little bit and then he just outright contradicts it all he's like tinkering around to see how can I get through to this person right and even thinking about Jesus in the wilderness the Temptation when the Devil comes to him and says if you're really the the Son of God turn the stone to bread and Jesus of course famously says it is written quotes from Deuteronomy quote scripture and then the Enemy quotes scripture back to Jesus but this time he's not questioning what God said because he quotes it accurately but he's questioning what it means he's just trying any in he can and he's really good at Deception and a lot of what happens within deception is manipulation as you've mentioned so if you could just kind of sum it up what is the subtle idea that the enemy is planting in the hearts and minds of people including Christians through the Enneagram uh I honestly think it's that we don't need the type of Salvation that we've been taught in the church we don't need to be saved from our sin uh the atonement is not necessary at that point because you like your true you is really innocent and your really good deep down I think this is the idea that I think is is persuading people um because there's a reason for all of your sin and it's and you know now that you know you're more responsible you should be managing your sin that you can use the phrase managing your sin um but I think that's the biggest problem is completely undermines the gospel it takes away what why you need Christ and it makes more it makes uh Christianity more of like this self-serving spirituality it's more about your experience it's about how you feel and you being um feeling enlightened and feeling spiritual uh rather than God being real a real person to have a real relationship with him that Christ actually died to pay for your sins I think it takes all of that out the window and that's why I think it's so Sinister um so and just to to be completely Fair my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong is that someone like a Beth McCord would not outright say you don't need to be saved from your sins in fact my understanding is that she would teach that you do need to be saved from your sin she would teach those things am I am I wrong about that or you're not wrong about it but I think that they redefine words [Music] um yes yeah and that's something to be really aware of because somebody might say you know yes you need to be safe from your sin but sin might mean something different or saved might mean something different and that's something I've encountered in Progressive Christianity is that a lot of the same words are being used it's like same vocabulary different dictionary and honestly Alexa my biggest concern with the Enneagram well I I wouldn't say it's the biggest it's equal with what all that you've talked about here today just the the invalidity of it the the occultic origins and overtones the new age Doctrine kind of coming in but what really concerns me about the Enneagram and I think I said this on my podcast with Marcia or what I realized I think on my podcast with Marcia is that even if like let's say the Enneagram is just innocent it's fine it's no different than just taking a typical personality to even say for argument's sake that's the case which I don't believe it is I think it's I agree with you Alex said Sinister but let's just say it's perfectly innocent there's nothing wrong with it it's demonstrable that Progressive Christianity was ushered into the Evangelical Church like a trojan horse through Richard rohr's work on the Enneagram almost everybody who's even more theologically conservative Christian who follows the Enneagram who studies the Enneagram has read Richard rohr's book and he is I have no hesitation saying he is a heretic he does not teach true Christianity in fact works very hard to move people away from historic Christianity so I see it like a trojan horse this was this was the way that or one way possibly that Progressive Christianity became so influential in the evangelical church because all of a sudden you hear people quoting Richard Rohr and you see Evangelical leaders quoting Roar because maybe they don't realize how terrible his theology is or how um how many people he's leading away from God but it's something to really take seriously I think I came with you on that I think we need to take this seriously and again if anyone's listening or watching and maybe you know you've used the Enneagram and maybe you like it we're just asking that you pray and consider what we're saying and I would also say consider if there's anything in our lives that we just want to clutch with our fingers really tight those things can become idols and the Enneagram can become an idol it can become an idol in anyone's life just like anything else can something that we think about more than God something that we focus on and study more than we study God's word and I think that's a huge red flag for us as well but you know I've heard a lot of people say that the Enneagram has really helped me so what if the Enneagram has helped someone what would be your advice to them if they're listening to this they're saying but it really helped me ah I don't doubt that that it helped in some areas of your life um probably helps people to feel more empathetic because they feel like they understand people more and they're more compassionate with themselves um but I would just try to remember that that you're building this empathy on something that's not necessarily true so this tool because it's not telling you truth you may be building a story in your mind about somebody or about yourself that isn't accurate and it puts you in a vulnerable spot [Music] um and so I think that if you can I mean if the Lord leads you to to move past the Enneagram um thank him for what he has done because all good things come from God not the Enneagram um and ask him to help you be relieved from it because I think it actually puts a heavy burden on you might not realize um is not up to you to figure people out it's not up to you to diagnose your own sin the Holy Spirit Will we'll do that for you yeah and help relieve you of that and I love what you said earlier about objective truth you had you had such a great statement about that because even diagnosing what good things it may or may not have done for someone you have to measure that against scripture because something might feel good it might feel like it was a good thing in your life but if it's something that goes against God's word if it goes against scripture you know that's actually not a good thing the Devil Comes as an angel of Light these things are going to feel right and good you're going to feel like you're more empowered and stronger and feeling more freedom but we have to we can't know what's good unless we have that standard of objective truth and we have God's revealed word to us where we can know if the fruit in our life is good fruit or bad fruit and when the New Testament talks about good fruit and bad fruit it is directly referring to obedience to Christ it is not about having a good feeling or having some sort of you know vague sense of Peace the fruit of the good fruit in a Christian's life is evidence of obedience to Christ and I'm not saying perfect obedience none of us have perfect obedience but there should be evidence of conviction of sin of us doing our best to turn from our sin and follow Christ be conformed to His Image day after day the renewing of our mind this can only happen through God's word not through a tool like the Enneagram so Alexa final words that you know if you if you could just have a room full of pastors a room full of moms room full of Christians um what would be your word to them regarding the Enneagram I would say please care about what is true more than um I think I think the world right now and a lot of Christians care more about what is good but since they're putting that above what is true they're determining what is good based on what what feels like it's good or feels like it's true um but I don't think we have the capacity to do that very well as humans Fallen humans um so I just want people to care care about what's true it protects you from being manipulated um Christ is our truth his word is his word to us and that's that's what I got very good all right so I want to thank my guest Alexa Kramer Alexa that was fascinating thank you so much for joining us if you want to read more about what Alexa's written about the Enneagram you can go to Mama bearapologetics.com and I believe is it three or four parts Alexa three parts and it starts with the Enneagram part one a crash course and there's three parts that you can go a little bit deeper with Alexa on that and also want to thank one of our sponsors for today which is Southern Evangelical Seminary you can go to ses.edu Elisa download a free ebook there and find out all the wonderful reasons that I love Southern Evangelical Seminary and why I've chosen to there to be a student and as we pursue Christ let's always remember to keep a sharp mind a soft heart and a thick skin we'll see you next time [Music]

Channel: Alisa Childers

Views: 60,932

Keywords: apologetics, progressive christianity, deconstruction, live your truth, another gospel, historic christianity, alisa childers, podcast, philosophy, christianity, truth, gospel

Id: 3YWxeKQfgkc

Length: 54min 44sec (3284 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 01 2023