THE DICK CAVETT SHOW with Jimmy Hoffa and Melvin Belli October 31, 1973

[Music] yes tonight are Jimmy Hoffa former head of the Teamsters Union attorney Melvin belli Charles Ashford author of the plaintiffs judges money can buy and Bob Rosengarten [Music] ladies and gentlemen Dick Cavett [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Applause] please go now then this means stop that just waste time the applause and when you start doing this it means for me to stop now I'd say it's silly see when you fear too noisy when I walk out then your silence during the monologue is conspicuous by contrast or something you know one of the passages doing this show is that you think of things the next night that you wish you'd said last night do you go home and think that - I last night I had the former assistant attorney general Ruggles house on the show may know and I wanted to say to him at some point during the interview his mail to the Attorney General now addressed occupant and I forgot it but I knew that if I had said it it would have gotten enough Rory as laughs as it just did what congressman Ford they're trying to get him what confirmed I guess is the right word his friends say they're delighted with his nomination when you consider what's happened to some of the other of the president's nominations I don't know if it's friendly of them or not but they they say that I see this as a form of protection his appointment because only Congress can impeach a vice president but only Ralph Nader can recall a Ford why are you going like this I I wasn't serious about that I came out here really to explain that I don't do a monologue because it sure looks so interesting that I want to waste any time I just want to mention you know Sam Ervin has done a record album for Christmas that is true you know that yes everybody sings I think is the title Evans I know he's actually done in fact I just want to get to the show before I want to miss on Fridays show we have at the moment one of the men who was apparently taken aboard an extraterrestrial vehicle and studied by outer space beings men from Mississippi and he should be here I think that's so interesting that if this is true that outer space picked a random individual it could have been any of us to study to give them clues to our civilization you know what if they had gotten Alice Cooper [Music] or linda lovelace or Jerry Lewis or you want to think of it's a strange thing Jimmy Hoffa's here I'm glad to say he's here tonight a former head of the Teamsters Union a fascinating man I never expected to meet him attorney Melvin Bell like Charles a Sherman author of the finest judges money can buy or everybody sings we will be right back after this message so stay where this should be very [Applause] [Music] in 1957 a very unlikely man was elected president of the biggest strongest toughest union in the country he's not the biggest man but he is strong and tough and the union is the United Brotherhood of Teamsters he quit school after seventh grade he worked his way up through local 299 and Detroit and 1957 he rose to power but also began to decline in that year John McClellan Select Committee on him proper activities in the labor management field pitted him against another famous man the committee's chief counsel Robert F Kennedy they that this relationship was described as a vendetta on both sides after a time led to a series of legal battles and 58 months in prison for my next guest for jury tampering and pension fraud now at the age of 60 still vigorous almost two years after his release he's hoping to resume leadership of the Teamsters she raises a lot of questions we welcome two highly controversial James riddle Hoffa [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] it's a little late to say is it nice to be out but I have some time I expect you still wake up in the morning and think am I out of my hand maybe not for two years no never did never did you've never accepted it and yeah except like for sure you have you find it yeah I've always heard about your handshake and I think he went a little easy on me but it has hurt a bit I'll try to get over it what if you had been in prison for life could you stand it if you had been been in prison for life as I saw many wipers in prison you have to divorce your mind from the outside completely and cease writing letters cease having visitors and live holy confined away from society the expectations of never getting out I saw people who are in for life double life life 199 years people have been in 27 years 30 years and they have to disassociate themselves completely from the outside you mean try to cut themselves up because it's to the cut that was hanging low I'll go crazy yeah you cannot dream of what's happening outside and think you're a part of it mm-hmm if you're there for any great period of time and what was hard hardest for you and there you knew you were gonna get out at some point well the hardest part I think for anybody who has other than life or to say less than 20 years is the realization that your family is growing older yeah that should children become married you have grandchildren and your wife is visiting you and going home without you and her children have left your home and she's alone and the fact that you're cut off from communication to those whom you would like to normally and in everyday life the associated with her talk to or right - yeah that was death difficult didn't you get kind of celebrity treatment in jail well you're aware retreat but no question about it I got two and three-quarter years of maximum security that's not to be used with solitary confinement maximum security is one aw West two and three cell blocks and another tooth so blocks one eighth Avenue this is a designation of the area that we wrote and find it that's it there are 48 people no 24 people on each floor out of 2,000 people in the prison normally people with life violent crimes are confined to their quarters but I was brought out at quarantine directly into one aw West and kept there two and three forty years with the violent people yes normally every 90 days you have a right to change your quarters yeah I was never permitted to change my quarters plus the line they made a job two weeks before I came to Lewisburg special for me I was assigned to that job and say there are 58 months which meant that each morning upon leaving my cellblock I would go into a caged in room which was 31 feet long and 15 feet wide and I stayed there for seven hours each day working on mattresses no time during a period of 58 months was i permitted as other inmates were to be able to change my job position now the warden feels very bad about it and brought me a letter and showed me a letter where Robert Kennedy had designated the quarters and the job I wish I have were the time I was in prison and warden said a Jim I want you to know they don't agree with it but I'm part of the system you'll have to not write any cop houses they call it for change of quarters or jobs you to the can't granite so I received special treatment I see you're discriminated against right and their whole argument was and I raised them for the second Ward was they did we treat you normally as other prisoners will be accused by the newspapers and the media giving you better treatment than you're entitled to it was his pitch and said the first warden yeah so much I want to ask you we will be right back after this [Music] [Applause] [Music] mr. Hoffa it sounds silly to say this but there's always something glamorous to me about anybody who's been in jail you know from seeing jail movies as a kid Sing Sing and all that San Quentin and people tour jails and they go home she have a romantic and exciting look can you remember your last night at home before going to jail what went through your mind well certainly I had my family in from st. Louis and from Detroit my son of my daughter and their children my wife and we discussed the future as to what was gonna happen what they had to do and so forth and my granddaughter then was very young and we tried to keep anything away from her and in general I made it a practice to try to tell him and it wasn't the end of the road everything would work out finally all right we'd be back together Ian were they pretty depressed my family doesn't get that much depressed we've been since 1932 more or less a target of the media and since I was an officer of the local union 32 up to time I went to prison so headlines TV didn't startle them as it does the ordinary person was first suddenly dropped into it when all of us had a very serious thought about the finances not what operate what they would do how they would visit and we worked it out and the next morning we had our breakfast I just my wife my daughter shook hands with my son kissed my granddaughter took off it's not a pleasant feeling but it's an end of life and you cannot let good and bad interfere with each other think it as it comes let's me strange feeling packing for jail well you don't pack because you don't take anything to jail when you go to prison you report to the marshal's office and there they turn you over to two marshals to take you as they did myself hey handcuff me they had a squad car in front squad car in the back at motorcycle escort they had at every intersection of the road between Washington DC and Lewisburg covered by the local police the Sheriff's Department boy I wouldn't expect and paraded me that I was going to escape I'd already been on bond for over six years yeah I reported to go to prison and yet they looked as though I was going to escape and they put the greatest precaution ever instigated by the Justice Department for display purpose and the TV cars but with as the helicopter was above us like the Macy Gray and when we run we arrive at the prison there was a large number of reporters TV cameras from what-have-you and when I got out of course they would not take the handcuffs off they left the handcuffs on and helicopter was about taking pictures it was a parade a a real circus uncalled for and disturbing to the point of my family that my wife had a stroke you tribute it to that well there's no question the doctor did and everybody else concerned then a yes I didn't realize he had a scope the datasheet unfortunately had the TV on yeah and she when she witnessed what was going on she had a stroke couldn't they save the taxpayers let him money by simply handcuffing your ankles and your I've been I know if I'd been out on bond for the period of time for 64 to 67 and reported regularly to any officer required me to report it was kind of silly to say that reporting that morning voluntarily without any marshals taking me there to the marshal's office to go to prison I was going to escapes kind of silly even think that but yet they had they had their last inch of publicity and I said then on the steps of the courthouse in Washington DC that if they can do this to Jimmy Hoffa they can do it anybody in this country never I was feeling sorry for myself but that wasn't the question what I meant and what now people understand in government who thought they were higher than God themselves didn't realize that once the media and the United States government won all of his power and money take after any single individual in the United States they can destroy that individual both financially and they can place him in jail by affecting saturation media so the point you can't get a fair trial I'm getting fascinated maybe obsessed with prison life one of the things we always hear about in prison or drugs and homosexuality did you have either I would say to you that there's unlimited drugs in the prison I testified from the house in the Senate any kind of drug you want is available and you get it two ways one you either pay money on the outside to your people or connections or you sell your body it's very set point so far as homosexuality is concerned I testified and a warden did not deny what I stated that forty-five percent of the people in Lewisburg he there were homosexuals when they came in or practiced almost sexuality while they were in prison the prison made them in some sense in some way con section what the majority came in as homosexuals who were homeless in there and they're the most dangerous element in prison for two reasons one when a homosexual comes into a prison he immediately selects his daddy who he thinks can protect them the best way and give him what he wants in a way of commissary and other things his B ID is implying his lover as well as his that's right technique and as he tires of him and there's no excitement and they live on excitement he starts flirting with somebody else and that lines up in beatings and stabbings in trouble and when I went to the warden at the beam air for a short period of time in the captain's office and I protested what I seen was happening in that prison I was told both by the warden and the captain listen leave well enough alone it keeps things down in the prison both on drugs and on homosexuality gives him something to do so to speak Wow it keeps the the the rougher element and those who are addicted quiet the where they wouldn't maybe not except prison like if they didn't have one or the other I wouldn't I would you handle homosexual approach from another prisoner well I suggested and I think if you read the committee's report peppers report and the other reports out of Congress they and all of the experts on prisons they agree that there has to be a segregation by classifications not only of homosexuals but of all people before they're sent to prison but you say some of them are made homosexual when they're there so no very well no way yes you can if you take the hormone out before he comes into prison don't allow them to associate with a non homo and you classify people by age background and crime then you will not have the element that creates homosexuality by assault and by force that you had in prison yeah my question was the what if a guy approached you how would you how did you handle that or if they say it happens to everybody who goes to prison it happens the weak people does that happen to strong people strong people they know will do one of two things either fight or stab them they don't approach you or bother you but if you are the type of person but out of background that they know you will not defend yourself only then are you subjected to this kind of a treatment so you didn't fear homosexual assault I had no problem in prison of any nature want that very clearly understood huh well from the day I went into prison the day I left I got absolutely no problems of that prison with a single inmate in fact the warden was concerned and called me in to tell me they couldn't understand why the people who came into prison would look me up and it was very simple to understand when they came into prison most of them never earn $5,000 a night many of them are uneducated or can't read or can't write or have no redress to the outside and they look teams so they looked at me in order to help in a way of advice in the way of supplying lawyers in a way of doing a hundred and one things they couldn't do for themselves which I did was in prison that makes perfect sense and I had one thing that nobody else in prison had I had the ability to be able to secure jobs on the outside for people who are on the inside which is a necessity to secure parole yeah a lot of prisons ever gets are very grateful to you for this so when they came in their prison they were looking up and say Jim I got this much time to do there's much time to do here's what I did can you help me get a job before parole when I was secured the job the first six months I was there I was securing jobs for people to go out on parole the warden and a captain called me in for a special meeting and one of the know why I was securing jobs for inmates in the prisoner who gave me the authority to do it and didn't I know that it was a violation of prison rules he was secure outside employment for inmates in the prison well we had quite a go around and the end result was when we left the warden a the captain and the assistant warden said well be careful what you're doing because I refused to recognize the fact that I could not help people who couldn't help themselves you'd like that reform to expect among other things I'm sorry I got a cut you would get a message here AB does the Teamsters discriminate against homosexuals no we don't discriminate against anybody we have no discrimination in the Teamsters Union to my knowledge you know you think is in a particular moment sexuals better know I read the day's Wall Street Journal I know what it said Journal today through the Justice Department made an announcement that they're going to go into court against the 16,000 employers and over 600 local unions of the Teamsters Union because of our seniority provisions in our contract on classifications which would take hours to talk about it would we don't have even minutes at this moment of the scarf sorry if your children have more energy than you know what to do with listen to this we'll be right back strange to say that I hope you would go to prison in those days but I should probably explain this this is an awkward buzz I understand what you're talking about the media maybe look as though I was probably one of the biggest goons that ever took place from this country and then I was some kind of an illiterate bomber that had muscled his way to the top of the gym you know and many people on the jury and many of the commentators over a number of long years tried to make that insinuation to the public and it had to rub off on everybody in this country that isn't here you looking like a guy who used to beat me up when it was a kid they even teach Doodle to people like you even and Marat of course if people like me you're only fire like no but you're a little light oh well how many pushups can you do well maybe 25 more than you well forget it he's a possible you and I went to third grade together in Grand Island Nebraska cuz there was a kid who used to beat me up on the way home well then I I doubt it you'd have to go to Indiana to find me in the third grade okay is it fair to ask you your feelings when Robert Kennedy was shot I was in a cell and 1aw West when he was shot and the guard woke me up mm-hmm and he said Jim I want you to know that Kennedy was shot I so what are you waking up to tell me that for I don't believe it and I went back to sleep the next morning when I came out and it was common discussion that the guard was shot or that inde was shot and I had no feeling because uh when we are together because nobody wants to see anybody get killed good or bad and particularly when he has a number of children or wife as Manhattan I didn't feel sorry for as much of him as I did for the wife and children yeah it's no secret that you were not friends there is a story though that is unpleasant that you refused to have the flag lowered to half-mast when John F Kennedy was killed they'd already hated all with enemies oh that isn't correct I didn't feel that he deserved but I had witness of him both as a senator and as a president that we should lower the flag of our building for a man that I did not have a respect for the office I have a respect for him I had no respect for and I did instruct them not to send our people home and not to lower the flag and I would do it again tomorrow that had to happen there were inevitable rumors that you wanted done a Robert Kennedy killed I remember in an interview there was a man who passed a lie-detector test to claim he heard you say so no what happened was the only witness against me named great great apartment that's the one that made a statement to a prosecutor in the Worland that he had visited with me in Washington that I had asked him for explosives and that I had made a comment that Kennedy would be very easily killed because he rolled around town in a convertible that was it it's an absolute lie I testified under oath that it was a lie and I now have a statement from him denying that I ever made the statement but it was instigated by people in a government for the purpose of prejudicing my trial what was the thing about his passing a lie-detector test and then he got to say he did not pass a lie-detector test well it said he did in this interview with you and you didn't do no no I never have an interview with him no no in this interview and I believe it was gallery and you know the magazine I know that maybe they did do a long interview with you and the man in the interview said that you this men part had passed a lie-detector test on that I don't recall it but let me say this for you well I haven't hesitated though under oath we are subjected to perjury and the deny the question then you can rest assured of Robert Kennedy had any material information concerning the fact that I lied under oath I would have had a perjury charge as I never had a perjury charge so I leave it at that well my question was merely not to accuse you know that the article and if you want to have it brought out here I mean very well we're about to Monday in October right but I was wondering if that man passed a lie-detector test I guess I guess that you would say well I don't believe in life you have my team even like that's perfect he says the lie-detector test that he was not a drug addict as we accuse to be and as as witness accused him to be in his own office and family well I feel bad about bringing it up now so I'll maybe during a break I'll ask for the quote so we could get the cool and I'd be honored to happen okay um to lighten things for a moment maybe if you had been vice president of the Teamsters Union you you wouldn't have gone to jail vice president's don't seem to go to jail these days good point [Applause] you went you went too high how do you feel about that you know the idea that there's a kid serving nine years in Texas for two marijuana cigarettes but the vice president won't only what they say is a fraction of the evidence they had against him I read the article and he Wall Street Journal also I got a reading the numbers of cases they carried a very expensive article citing cases I think there at the time served and the offense is against what happened to vice president Agnew very long article but that doesn't change the fact of what we're talking about around the country and trying to convince Congress of then what California is already doing a non-violent crime first offender has no value of being sent to prison then if you look at the last study that just came down two weeks ago by a committee that studied for over 18 months the question of of imposing sentences they said that no man should be given more than five years for any crime unless he was part of organized crime and made this his livelihood out of organized crime and I continuously say and I really sincerely believe that a first offender which cost about sixty five hundred dollars a year to keep in federal prison and twenty five hundred dollars for purposes of parole and custody on the outside and he should first be placed into parole status and probation status then placing him into jail where he Cole mingles with fourth third second offenders who teach him if he's the young enough how successfully to become a hardened criminal and by the acts of the guards and prison life I know you seem a hardened person I know prison corrupts but wouldn't a guy be willing to take a chance on that he might say if I can pull off a swindle I can make two million dollars well exchange opportunities I don't want to argue with the experts but the experts say all of them yeah that the sentencing is secondary to a crime because it comes after the crime and while a man's as committing the crime he does not think about the sentence so by saying he would get probation which means you're restricted where you can go who you can associate with what job you can have and report regularly as to your total activities how much you can earn and so forth would have four more value as a camera yes as kind of California's prove this California has closed down for major prisons and have never opened a brand-new prison by instituting the parole probation system we will be right back after this [Music] I have that quote and I'd rather you say he says the FBI lie-detector test I mean the interviewer says he says the FBI lie-detector test showed in the opinion the analyst the statements he made about you wanted to kill Bobby Kennedy were true and as you pointed out your answer you don't have your glasses so I read it B was they gave him four tests before they could finally come up with one that they could use and he had one changing the questions around so was it the two sides of that um Melvin belli is an attorney sometimes more flamboyant he's accused of being than his clients we know of him for his defense of Jack Ruby is success in hundreds of criminal cases he seems to live with accolades on the one hand and cries for his suspension on the other but he remains a fascinating figure mr. Melvin Bell aye [Applause] [Music] very little good to put a man like this in jail for all that he's done for his people and waste all the talent for the years that are in there and I think he's doing a tremendous thing now with this association for penal reform and a lot of these people that he's trying to help out what was my question okay say if I ever offended you when you were here not that I know them one time you were sitting here and a siren went off and I said don't run out Melbourne and no we have a pretty strict union whereas across it's a lot stricter than Jimmy's the Bar Association say f lee Bailey has a girlie magazine now in fact it's the one you were interviewed and I believe gallery is it or it might be I do I have the confuse do you have any extra gallery well that's the one if someone asked me to do something with the coke as in coca-cola but I became Attorney General after that last Supreme Court opinion rather than publisher I think they need a lawyer more than a publisher I don't get that well they stopped a lot of the magazines or they're supposed to stop a lot of the magnet all right alleged obscenity or pornography if anybody can determine what it is pretty difficult determine what is obscenity like yeah Potter so we're talking about her Stewart says I can't define it but I damn well know what it is well I defy anybody the can define define it and say that he knows what it is I think we all know when we see a Dewey Dewey I'm sorry I never said it strike hakuna transcript in San Francisco we're supposed to have a lot of time listen Bob listen we do and the people seem to be like it and all of a sudden Supreme Court speaks and we can't have it anymore so we just stop it we changed our morality overnight I don't think you can legislate morality over like that it's got to come from the people uh you know something interesting though about your doctors are always putting in a bad word against you and I don't know what it was about ending a bad word against the doctor sometimes but not always it was the malpractice cases that's exactly and I finally found out what it was it's that you encouraged malpractice cases in some cases and I guess it drove their insurance sky-high well their insurance is high they're their insurance it's most formidable a good neurosurgeon has to pay something like twenty twenty three thousand dollars a year for insurance I think it's utterly outrageous but when I first started to practice doctors weren't being sued they're not being sealed in some states the United States now you can go to some counties you won't find the medical malpractice case because they feel the doctors like briefs and in Middle Ages were immune but generally now doctors are responsible for their mistakes and they do make mistakes if you go up to a doctor and say congratulations for being human after he gets whacked for $500,000 because the quality of humanity is terror and they do they with all of these cases that they're they operate and all of the new pills and medicines and if you look it's just tough to practice without making a mistake and the drugs are the big source of litigation as suits against the drug companies well it's do you think mr. Hoffa took a bum rap so I think it's a lot better than if you'd asked me about the average of the lawyers down in Washington the statistics adityas of honest people a lot better than what we've been able to say lately down in Washington I think it's part of the system I think what Jimmy got was it could have been on the other side it's tough doing union work and when you get up topside in the Union or when you get up topside rapping against a politician you're a target and if you go the other way just as easy to make you a criminal as to give you a testimonial dinner that's what I say that there is no such thing as a criminal type he's not a criminal type it was just his misfortune and this thing could be picked out and when when as he said when they point the finger at you if they've got the eagle flying and they've got the money then beware anybody can be got and when Jimmy says they can do it to me they can do it to anybody I think that they can I think it's been a lot of innocent men that have been sent to jail so I answer your question roundabout I think it was part of the system that Jimmy got thrown into jail once the Watergate conspirators it seems where attorneys that has given your nazar a lot of attorneys in LA she would have been better if the president Sauron himself with shoe salesmen retention attorneys it seems - is there a an embarrassment in the profession that has been given a black guy yes it has but I don't think you realize that the people to give it the black guy don't realize the good things we've done in the law we've done a lot more good in the last ten years and we change the law around more than that we have in the last 40 or 50 years and I think that oh sorry Mel well as long as I got in the word that we've done a lot of good no we're actually good forget a message we'll be right back [Music] [Applause] [Applause] there's a book called the finest judges money can buy and then it's a levels of rather savage attack simply because of the collection of stories it is on American justice which it calls a judicial pollution well what it does is it presents profiles of seventy four judges who representing various degrees of venality incompetence or stupidity or some combination of those have gotten into tremendous trouble the author is Charles Ashman here welcome in please [Music] after you're even a cursory glance at your book I hope there's nothing pending against you or you I hope I may be the first guy to get life for a parking ticket in New York I'm watching the sand in the back yeah you are looking more Melvin like Chief Justice burger every day well after the book that you wrote I don't know what that's a comfortable or not no the difference is that burger is the last of the great medieval thinkers he's supposed to wash his hair went there and I don't see why he washes his hair with beer and right I think The Enquirer had a big story on that I've never tried there yeah what does that give you a head on your head I don't think you know we're talking about Watergate Jimmy was in st. Louis not long ago for a dinner for the National Association for justice which all of us now have a link Jimmy heads the crisis control center I work with media and Mellie's going to be special counsel for and the reporters we're talking to him about Watergate he came up with a classic line he said I hope everybody in Washington will definitely help us with penal reform before they get there to see whether the reforms are that's the background of sweet Thanks I expect they're not laughing what is the common reason that judge has become corrupt and of course we're not saying that all judges do are we know they're human beings and as long as human beings or judges and God willing they always will be and not computers you're going to have those that take a bribe those that are drunk those that the fool around with a woman while deciding how much alimony to assess against her husband you're going to have a sensuous judges and the black-robe mafia my gripe dick is not with the 74 judges in the finest judges money can buy nor with the 2000 that there were complaints against in the calendar in 1972 it's with the system that tolerates and encourages corruption either the bribe or the political payoff who becomes a judge if a guy is appointed it's a domestic ambassadorship gotten the same orange keep the bad ones in that's the bed that's what I'm getting at film 99% good well I don't agree with your percentage but I think that most judges are decent and dedicated my gripe with them is that they won't take on a brethren they won't take on somebody on the bench was a drunk or who they know is giving favoritism to a particular law firm or to a local politician because they were afraid that it will undermine the confidence in the judiciary and the lawyers with all due respect Mel the Bar Association's in America are halfway between the campfire girls and book in a month club they're afraid to take on the judge because if they don't get a kill they gotta come back to make a living in front of them and there's economics involved so my contention is that if we're thinking in terms of recalling cars or recalling washing machines because of the consumer movement we ought to throw justice into the consumer movement and reform the system so that we encourage the best people on the bench I think you've got to elect them rather than appoint them too and yes yeah I used to say that you get the best judges by appointing them and more men will seek the office if they're appointed so you're both right statistically there have been less problems when you have elected judges but frankly if you want to have elected judges they should be without party labels there should be restrictions on campaign contributions rigid restrictions and you want to use the state legislatures the way we use the US Senate they don't do a bad job they saved us from creeps like no pun intended Carswell and Hainsworth and i think that if you use the state legislatures as a screen you would you know keep some of these merciless house or good screen I think they're competent to vote judge him with all the hullabaloo and election and everything else I think we like today there's a federal district judge in the south who is known as the guy that will put you away for a comma out of place in income tax the worst guy on income tax in the country well he was arrested for of all things failure to file his income tax pled guilty with an explanation that he was so busy with his work at court he forgot to file his taxes would you take a case like this in the whole system of the sky but on the internet it's not that bad I think you both have got to recognize the fact that they each has a lot to do with the disgust of people in the federal court you mean the fact that somebody old high has been in the federal courts where judges slept sound asleep while they'd been up William Zonday freedom to competent lawyers argued a very serious case before the judges to the extent that the bailiff had to go over and shake the judge because he was snoring that was great you marry my fact it's the snoring they objected I guess yeah but wait I'm sorry we gotta take a message we'll be right there [Music] how many of you believe in the system you know I believe if it weren't for the system we couldn't expose the Watergate I couldn't come on a show and talk about the fact that we name names of judges who are still on the bench it's like reading a gossip called me but because every name is mentioned up there that I don't concur what they're saying oh I do not agree that the system the way it's practiced today is proper for the American people to expect justice from oh we're not arguing they say the system allows people to actually find where in the world there is a better system like what church will say something about democracy that is bad look at all the other systems nuns the best of all that about your French experience Bell I went to Europe one of the anecdotes in the book many years ago called over by Errol Flynn in a civil suit which is funny in and of itself that he had a civil suit and Flynn was over there and Bell I arrived and the French lawyer correct me if I'm wrong and Flynn were at the airport and said Monsieur Bell aye there is nothing to fear we've given the judge 300,000 francs he's in our pocket and bail I reacted the way anybody would saying I always worry about that what if the other side gave him four hundred thousand francs and the French lawyer got indignant he said but mysterious a French gentleman he only takes from one side I want to be known at the board yeah so much for those foreigners I think the fact that they're up in the air hurts dick I mean literally I think that people are intimidated be they litigants witnesses jurors and some lawyers when they walk into a courtroom and ten feet up in the air in a black robe French incantations oh yes oh yes here comes the judge I think we'd be better off lowering them down to eyeball and we're getting rid of the robes in the French and you can still have the formality but people should feel that the courts belong to them they don't right now they feel it's a mistake when you walk in there what federal court building from the lowest sweeper in that building so the elevator operator to the marshal through the court personnel to the judges owned lock stock and barrel the United States government it's a computer you're talking about completely different than state court I mean you just feel that that there's one fellow in that courthouse the federal judge he can be irascible he can be sweet he sets the tempo or the cleaning woman he cuts the temple with the lawyers the clients everything he runs that whole building that's not so in the state system where they're elected Robert sure I'll read a review in the in a Tribune and he pointed out something that this is a rogues gallery but there are a lot of other judges we didn't mention and some people argue well it isn't that bad there's not that many bad judges well in Oklahoma they took four justices of the Supreme Court involved in cases over ten years nineteen hundred cases that they took bribes in they put them in prison now everybody that's had a trial for ten years in Oklahoma is walking around wondering whether they lost because they lost or because of a bribes so you can't say that that the minority doesn't have any ink overall and you take the whole legal profession and all the judges dealing with human nature and having human beings with all of their problems and humanity on the bench right I think of all of the professions that are people behave themselves about the best I suspect that your book would be quite amusing reading for guys in prison maybe copies of it should be soon your lawyer and I've been a defendant and I want to tell you something I expect on my side of the fence for your defendant and you will find out that two-thirds of the federal judge in America and so being on that bench more than five years believed their God a'mighty and no lawyer no matter how brilliant he is knows law comparable to what they know law well they think there's even a present because they are distort everything president let me make observation would you say we're friends by this time Strava acquaintances [Applause] that's a pretty sharp defense to that's very good yes I was born not to try to debate with you and I I wouldn't be so fully but when you were giving interviews I've read a number them and seen some often somebody will talk about some past problem you've had with the law and you say all I have to say about that is the court threw that case out right but then when you went to jail you say you were framed and so I mean you can't have it both ways for two reasons if you go in front of a judge and have a fair trial and you're found guilty no complaint well when you have a judge such as judge Frank Wilson in Chattanooga and I will naman makes the public acknowledgment that 60% of the testimony from witnesses on that trial never testified in front of my jury is gonna find me guilty or innocent and I say it's time that the system was changed so your theory here we have a judge Austin and should call him now them all I don't care what they think and you have a judge Austin in Chicago that criticized a lawyer who represented one of our defendants in that case because he married a young girl and ridiculed his virility in open court in front of the jury to where the lawyer took exceptions to it and the judge had to apologize after the jury left the courtroom now you cannot have judges who believe that because you are invited that you're guilty nor can you have judges that believe that lawyers don't have as much knowledge of the law as the judge has and I don't have to practice in front of any judge and I'm not trying to sell nothing but Jamie strips you'll go to federal court in Missouri the jury system oppa Jimmy you're Jimmy Hoffa and you have the ability even when you're in prison to place jobs you have contacts let me tell you what's happened to be touring with this book you know what tell it in one minute in one minute we travel around the country and people come in and say I had this experience some of them are sour grapes many of them come in with documentation of unfair treatment one where the judge bought the home that was in the estate he was administering this that we got so many gripes that we're going to expand the book and try and set up we're working with you mentioned gallery and coke we're working with Bob Guccione of Penthouse magazine with one now associated as a senior editor we're going to be setting up an ombudsman program in January where somebody wants to fight City Hall I can't get anybody to listen about a judge or anybody else will help them it's amazing how many people feel frustrated at the courts that's what the finest judges is all about not just bribes it's the frustration that if you don't know the right lawyer and the right judge being right is not enough let me just add the most brilliant lawyers in the country in my case and here's what they said I said what do you think they said if we get the right judge anything feels good that they were all right now isn't that his system but to figure that out we got no time I'm sorry I think the majority of the times you do get good judges I think that this is already in attacks far vast majority and I say again it's about well maybe not 99 but about 90% of the times the judges are good it's bad that's penetrative we're almost out of time among the things we're likely to get mail about her what some people are going to interpret is your insensitive remarks about homosexuals are you for or against what they think I saw a witness that I saw what went on in prison I know what it creates in prison and I say that they have a regular in any one of them just as I do but don't have them in the prison where they can cause a riot create disturbances stabbings and murder without a recognition that the government is responsible for those people who get hurt in the process you're not against them for what they are do what they want and that's everybody's privilege being what they want not only their swings down in South America that you look at a wing you see lace curtains on the window that's a homosexual lien that's an actual fact Thank You mr. Ashman mr. Bell aye mr. Hoffa you're all fascinating and thank you for being here tomorrow night the Rudolph Nureyev gore Vidal and father John McLaughlin Jesuit priest X candidate for the office of senator from Rhode Island speechwriter for the president President Nixon we'll see you tomorrow night good night for running [Music] [Applause] you

Channel: Loyal Opposition

Views: 533,652

Keywords: the irishman, jimmy hoffa, prison, tough, reform

Id: b6T-yMls4Sk

Length: 45min 48sec (2748 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 30 2019