THE BIG RESET: Use AI To Build Wealth & GET AHEAD Of 99% Of People | Peter Diamandis & Salim Ismail

you guys are on something that is just my absolute Obsession right now and you make a very bold claim in your new book you said that the next billion dollar company will be founded by three people how is that possible first let me just say that we're living in a different day and age the ability to start companies today that are exponential and the name of the book is exponential organizations 2.0 the new playbook for 10x growth and impact it's a series of attributes that never existed before and uh AI is going to play the biggest role without question but it's all the exponential Technologies Celine yeah if you look back in history maybe uh 57 years ago it needed about a 10 000 person company to create a billion dollar valuation that's crazy then it dropped to about a thousand people uh Instagram was 13 people right now we'll get it down to three people because AI will handle most of the execution work you'll have a CEO who will drive vision and product a product I will focus just on getting things done in an operations person that'll handle everything else and you should just have ai Bots doing all the finances marketing etc etc as somebody who's deploying AI as rapidly as humanly possible and I know that people have a lot of anxiety around this it's still for all of ai's immediate uses it still seems hard to imagine that big leap how should people be using AI right now if they want to be on that path so one of the things I'm doing in the companies that I'm running or advising or investing in as I'm saying first of all every company needs to have what I call a chief AI officer and it's a role I made up was teaching at abundance 360 this year and it is not someone who's building a large language model for you or writing code for you it's an individual who understands what's going on in the terrain because we're seeing not hundreds or thousands tens of thousands of startups everybody you know you can start an AI company now with literally spare time in your garage so understanding what's out there what the modalities are and what you can and should be using is critical so your Chief AI officer is scanning The Horizon understanding it and then advising members of your team so every part of your team right there's going to be AI supporting sales and marketing and uh and engineering and HR we're all going to have in the near term an AI co-pilot right this is an AI that helps you do your job better because we are so limited as carbon life forms But ultimately is going to be able to operate and do a number of the things repetitively because we do a lot of repetitive tasks and AIS are much better at that um I think if you've got we've got say a 30 person company every single person needs to be trained in Ai and using these chatbot a auto GPT tools and absolutely augment themselves 10 20 100x I have said to my company okay everybody here needs to figure out in your department what are the tools that exist in Ai and how can you immediately Implement them but even that's pretty vague like I'm just sort of dumping it on them where do people start like what is the thing you actually do easy and super specific if you have an email newsletter that goes out use chat you PT they'll say how would I increase the engagement rate with this email we did that we got a 25 increase feed it the email you feed it the email yeah come up with a better headline or put in Social sharing links throughout it or say listen I'm in HR go to chatgpt open it up right now if you hopefully you have the you know the gpt4 version of it and say I'm in HR how should I be used using generative AI in my business it'll it'll feed you you know give me five examples or ten examples pick the one that sounds good give me step-by-step instructions on how to use this it's you know it's recursive in that fashion and so you're going to use AI to help you learn what you want to know you know it comes back a lot to mindset Tom and you need the mindset of a kid here curiosity absolute play it's like you know one of the things I'm going to be doing in my team my PhD Ventures it runs at buttons 360 and a few others we're gonna we're setting aside three days and no homework coming out of these three days we're gonna go in with a series of objectives and we're going to actually crank for three days and generate all the content all the plans and you can but it takes time for all of us to switch from our old habits of how we do things to new ways so the first time it's going to take 150 of your time the next time we'll take 50 and 25 you talk about mindset the thing I see and I'm sure you guys have encountered this is a lot of people they just have so much anxiety about this is going to replace me I think about that a lot so Lisa and I have have put our Fortune back at risk to build this company and you've said this a lot but I've said this a lot skate to where the puck is going to be not where the puck is the problem is right now feels like the puck is teleporting and so it becomes very difficult to know where that puck is actually going to be so how do you guys think about that as and you guys talk in your book about the fact that the average company used to be on the S P 500 for like 67 years it's down to 15 we're expecting it to just keep dropping so how do we not just get disrupted seven minutes after we figure out how to use AI well I think there's a few different things going on here but the first is you should talk about the asteroid analogy yeah because I think that sets the framing for what's actually happening here I view what's going on in the business world today similar to the asteroid 20 kilometer asteroid that struck the Earth 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs right the asteroid changed the environment of us so rapidly so dramatically that the slow lumbering dinosaurs who didn't adapt went extinct and it was the furry little mammals our ancestors that were agile enough to adapt that survived and thrived so the asteroids striking the Earth right now are exponential Technologies with AI as the you know the overlord there and it's just going to change the environment so rapidly that you need you need agility you need a team that is agile one of the things I would I would say is also what do you own that is unique whether it's characters uh in a you know Disney's characters that they own versus having a movie distribution system uh what do you have that's Uniquely Yours what data do you have what processes do you have what assets do you have that as the tech changes you can take the data on those assets and put it through the new tech this is my hypothesis let me know what you think about this so uh AI is going to generate a ton of noise so even as you were saying like hey I'm an HR person how do I do this or how do I make this email better everybody's gonna have access to that same thing and that lead Google memo about AI has no mode and AI has no mode and so we're all going to be able to use this and so as somebody making a video game and somebody thinking about IP the real thing you have to get good at is getting people to care and so it's that Disney has gotten people to care about their characters so when you think about AI making the creation of art instantaneous because a big part of what made art cool before was the sense of I couldn't do that and so when somebody presents you with something that you couldn't do you're like whoa that's so cool and you have this like really emotional response now I'm like I could do that or I might even be able to do something right so now it's like when I see just a wall of AI art I my brain still goes to the characters I care about right so my thing is in a world where we are going to get disrupted incredibly fast in a world where now the game really is about making people care how do people break through the noise and maybe even more specifically how do you stay emotionally sober long enough to try to break through the noise so this goes straight to the first and most important characteristic of an EXO which is the massive transformative purpose right when you pick a problem that you are deeply passionate about say curing cancer you've put all your emotional energy into that Peter talks about the emotional connection that gets created uh no matter what the tool set is or what the capabilities are your emotional connection to that and the passion you bring to it is the thing that will separate you out from everybody else because somebody else has to come to edit with exactly enough the same passion and have access to the same tools and that's what it'll win out that'll be the steadying ship for how do you navigate this chaotic world is what fundamental problem do I get excited about and I'm just going to go after that problem and stick with it yeah I think you nailed it time uh the idea of an exponential org what we lay out is the number one thing that a entrepreneur or and you know a more advanced company needs to do is establish that MTP that massive transformative purpose and once that's established then there's a whole slew of 10 different attributes that allow you to scale and allow you to build something but in a world where there's this abundance of opportunity right where we're drowning in opportunity and your attention is your most important asset here that you're going to gift a company being connected to that company's MTP right so you know when Elon gets up on stage and says we're going to build a multi-planetary species we're going to Mars we're going to help save the human race and so forth people connect in their heart and their mind to that if some company stands up and says we're going to provide better shareholder returns I mean you know you know it's just this noise this is two big challenges big companies have first they're not passion driven in the same way some are the new breed of organizations is they don't have an MTP for example in fact the way this came about was when we first put the original version of the book together in 2014 we scanned 200 unicorns and said how are they doing it how are they scaling so fast so the EXO model is not something we invented we labeled kind of what was already happening and put a framework around it and without exception every single one of these companies that was moving very fast had this MTP they're all dedicated to one particular problem ways solving traffic or Uber everybody should have a private driver and it acts as the kind of the North Star the Simon sinek question of why do you exist Etc big companies have two problems the first is they they typically tend not to be Purpose Driven their brands are tilting that way more and more but secondly there's this old economic theory called kosa's law written in the 1930s it's a nine page paper for which he won the Nobel Prize this guy called Ronald coast and he theorizes the big companies exist because transaction costs are lower inside the company than outside and that you can achieve economies of scale that way okay and we in this book we declare Costa's law dead because economies of scale can be applied to an individual now who can scale to a global global level and economies have scaled and the controlling factors of big companies prevent you from moving in any kind of an agile way and so therefore all the advantages with the single individuals or small teams with a passion and that's where we think the future will go okay so I can I can predict out and anybody listening to the sound of my voice right now should be aware that I I very much have my money where my mouth is and so my fears are very real um I um the prediction that I will make is that AI will make things better for the masses in ways we just cannot fathom and it will be absolutely incredible but it does not care about the individual at all and so while the consumer will win I'll be very interested to see what happens to people building businesses because they will just come and go they will get disrupted so fast that it will begin to ask a new question of entrepreneurs which is can you dedicate your life's energy to something you know will be obliterated in three years interesting or like like the sand art in India yeah right wow Jesus you just yeah that hurts yeah well no but it's interesting it's it's really it's truly letting go it's it's it's non-attachment so one of the underlying principles of an exponential organization you and I talked about this when we did our early podcasts on abundance or bold or Futures faster is the six D's of an exponential right when you digitize any product or service in every single product and service is or will be digital ties and if you're a CEO running a company where your services are not digitized you're in trouble because someone else is going to do it to you in the early days the growth of that product or service is deceptively slow it's like the first digital cameras that were 0.01 megapixels the next year is 0.02 then .04 all look like zero it was deceptive everyone ignored it you know 20 doublings it's a million times better 30 doublings it's a billion times better and kodak's out of business right so we go from digitized to deceptive to disruptive and what happens you dematerialize demonetize and democratize so dematerialization is we don't carry Kodak cameras or film around anymore they're an app on your phone right and when things become ones and zeros the cost of replicating them is effectively free and the cost of transmitting them is effectively free so they're demonetized I can send my digitized whatever around the world to a billion people for free and then it's democratized everyone has access to it so yes we are heading towards this massive world of abundance right where the best education the best health care uh is provided by an AI effectively for the cost of electricity right so it's it's going towards zero but would anybody go to medical school anymore um and by the way it's going to become our practice to diagnose someone without AI as your co-pilot probably within the next five years that's crazy so this is happening and yeah it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna flip a bit or two here because a lot of that well a lot of wealth is created when you create something and retain it for yourself and you sell it off a little bit at a time or you build a platform that other people build on top of but um I remember I was on stage at Singulair University I had Astro Teller who was heading Google's moonshot Factory and Steve jervetsen on the board of Tesla and SpaceX he was at he's one of the top Venture capitalists we're talking about a future in which AI is able to iterate on hardware and software so rapidly that if you announcing your product or a service someone else has cracked it replicated and provided a better version of it you know minutes later so what happens when intellectual property is useless because I don't want to protect myself by having IP rates I want to protect myself by having the best product available things are getting very much faster and better but it's gonna It's Gonna Change the World yeah I mean if you if you go take your analogy then any product or service your build may be rendered obsolete pretty quickly right then you lift above that to go okay then what's the narrative or story or framing you put around that that's a little bit longer lasting and about that are the mindsets right if you have the right mindset then you don't care if your MTP is curing cancer and somebody gets there a little before you're like yeah somebody got there fantastic we got we cured cancer awesome pick another MTP and keep going I don't think that's going to be the human response it's the ego it doesn't want that it is so I I'm going to paraphrase a guy named Saleem Ismail you guys may have heard of him uh and he said that we're gonna need an upgrade to the human mind or we're not going to be able to deal with the rate of change and I think that's really real and right now we don't have said upgrade to the human mind and if I haven't gotten yours yet huh I have not if you if you have in the box somewhere please by only means give it to me I would also I'd like to paraphrase you again and then I'll actually let you respond um you said that somebody asked you well wait a second okay a world of abundance it sounds amazing but isn't that going to uh damage GDP and you said yes it's going to tank GDP yeah uh for those who don't know what that is basically the economy so abundance the thing that we want is going to tank the global economy should we not be terrified well it's just one of these transitions one way I frame it is this next 30 Years will dictate the next 300 years like is this going to be a 30 years of just Terror in the streets Peter will tell you abundance doesn't mean unicorns and flowers and thing it it means opportunity for all I call I say abundance is not about a life of luxury for everybody it's about a life of possibility interesting whoa right so go go into that look I know I know you very well Peter and having researched you Celine my I know you well enough to know you guys are very much of a similar ilk uh slim you've said very publicly you don't think AI is dangerous um but walk me through the darker side of that if if you don't mind indulging that angle which I know is not your natural angle but walk me through the the sort of underlying Terror of possibility is different I say please and thank you to Alexa every morning you know the AI overlords I want them when they come forward to like remember me Peter you were always nice to us that's right one of my ctOS for one of my companies years ago we asked him what's the purpose in life and he goes I want to evolve to the point that my computer is proud of me and we had no idea what he was talking about it and now we're like oh yeah that's what he meant um I I think again there's the Dark Side the dark side is I think the biggest dark side is malicious use of these Technologies right some bad actor says this is let's use this to figure out how to stop all the power plants um stop all the medical machines from running and hack them etc etc um you know the we worry a lot about that that we put huge amounts of effort in this but the data that we have shows that human beings when given a choice whether to use good or bad generally almost always pick good okay I'll give you a little study they did a study when eBay and Craigslist became prominent on okay here's an environment for the first time where a human being can easily do a positive strand Doctrine or a fraudulent one easy to mask my email address put a Macbook up for sale a photograph of it and walk off with a thousand bucks so what's the actual ratio of good to bad and after researching this quite uh thoroughly they found that across multiple systems like this Craigslist eBay Etc the actual ratio of good or bad was something like eight thousand to one okay so there's a thousand positive for each negative now that tells you that when we have a new technology like drones first response is oh my God the Drone might be loaded up with C4 and flown to the White House let's ban the drones or put chips in there regulate the hell out of it Etc and stop the drones or stop autonomous cars or whatever crispr whatever the AI now is the flavor of the month well what actually we see if you actually let anybody use it the data shows that 8 000 people will do the positive thing and one person it'll be easier to spot that one person will do the negative thing the problem is the amplitude of that one is obviously very much getting much bigger and so that's of concern but this has been the same story since the beginning of time fire can heat our house and it can burn down yours biotech problems Etc and we worry about it it never actually comes to fruition and maybe I'm just an optimist right yeah I mean by the way optimists live seven years longer on the average you know that right um I'm not surprised by that but I will say that there's a new technology rushing towards us it's going to change the world uh and I let me let me answer your question so uh when I think about the dangers related to Ai and I'm not gonna you know I think AI is the most important tool Humanity has ever created to solve all of our biggest problems no doubt period exclamation point you know Big Bright letters having said that are there dangerous so the dangers can simply break down into three different groups one at one end is AI becomes conscious and decides to squash us and step on us I find that very unlikely and a ridiculous thesis I think people have just seen this in Hollywood way too much I think the more intelligent something is uh honestly the more loving and kind and pro-life it will be why why it's my belief it is my belief I have other than um I see Humanity becoming as a whole over time if you look at the numbers right and we've looked at this from abundance uh Warfare reducing massively over time violent death reducing massively over time access to Freedom increasing over time I mean the numbers over a thousand years not over the last five ten twenty years but over a thousand years and that's come from educating each other with books and transportation connecting us across the world and globalization and interdependence all of these things have led to it's hard to remember this watching the crisis News Network right CNN every day that's broadcasting every murder on the planet to you over and over and over again it's shaping our neural Nets our brains are neural Nets that we teach from example after example and I don't watch the news right I don't want some editor telling me about yet another murder or crooked politician got it and it isn't showing us a fair and balanced view of what's actually going on in the world the incredible science and technology and humanitarian acts of these things yeah anyway so one phase is uh AGI you know artificial general intelligence before you move off that though so um what you're describing is human intelligence and so this is and societal intelligence I don't quite know what you mean by that and what I mean is that societal Norms organizing around the United Nations yes people are born of this meat suit the brain works in a certain way and computers will not AI will not work in that same way I have no reason to believe that yeah very likely won't it works it works differently you can reboot your life your health even your career anything you want all you need is discipline I can teach you the tactics that I learned while growing a billion dollar business that will allow you to see your goals through whether you want better health stronger relationships a more successful career any of that is possible with the mindset and business programs and impact Theory University join the thousands of students who have already accomplished amazing things tap now for a free trial and get started today at the end of the day you know when we have these crazy Hollywood scripts that AI is going to usurp us for our heat from the Matrix I love The Matrix they failed on that use of human bodies I'm sorry I don't know if you agree with me on that I I do agree with you and I don't know well enough what their original intention was but according to them yes they were forced by the studio to give a more simplistic answer so I let them off the hook for okay that's right but you know other we're coming to get your water on this planet we're listen whatever we have on this planet is infinite in the universe we are a spec a crumb in a universe filled with resources and so AI doesn't need to you know squash Humanity to get these resources um so AGI at its extreme artificial general intelligence at its extreme I don't believe is going to be dystopian in itself in the middle term uh what I would call the terrible twos or the teenage years um maybe there is a case to be made that in the beginning AI hasn't reached full sentience doesn't understand the power of its tools maybe there's a case that you know it's the baby picking up a rock and throwing it out the window not understanding what it's you know the a teenager with a BB gun and a squirrel yes that's that's the best but the third element which is the most likely is the benevolent uh individual it's it's the Bad actors using technology and so sometime in the next 18 months two years there may well be not a uh a retrovirus released but an AI virus that goes out and shuts down power plants or shuts down Wall Street and something and causes a economic hurdle um that's not the AI those are the humans using that tool just to be very clear there's a great book by mogadot called scary smart came out about a year ago do you know that book I had I haven't read the book but I had Mo in the show recently yeah MO is is fantastic and um and he basically says listen I want you to think about AI as a child we're giving birth to as Humanity and that child is being taught by its parents now if you think about Superman who lands in Kansas wherever he landed and he's picked up by the Kent and it's a loving family he learns good ethics and morals and he becomes a superhero for good what if the what if Superman had landed in the Bronx and part of a drug lord uh ring you know and had become the super villain you make me want to write that story as soon as he started I was like wait a second that's a great plot there so the question is we humans how are we teaching this new uh life form coming into existence I like Neil Jacobs times framing please which is he goes okay you're worried about an AI uh getting more and more access to information uh becoming Anonymous making its own decisions and starting to run amok out in the world we go yeah he goes We call we have a precedent for that we call them children and we raise kids and we figured out ways of giving them timeouts or jail or whatever and he thinks constructively that we think we'll find ways of bounding what AIS can do now not sure I agree with them yeah that seems super naive to me so when I I am optimistic by nature and my default setting is just hey this is all going to work out somehow and as soon as we wrap this episode I'm going to be pushing my team to integrate AI more I'm going to be paying more money for AI and just feeding that beast but at the same time it does give me pauses I try to think through like how you really deal with the alignment problem so to me there's two really big dangers for AI danger number one and this is the one that scares me the most but I'm going to set it aside for a minute and that's just humans lose meaning and purpose just AI can do everything better than they can it just becomes so defeating that you're just like oh God like I've worked really hard to get good at this thing like this I tell the story all the time I can't remember if I've told it in an episode but uh I employ a bunch of artists and I once sat with one of them and for like an hour he was just trying to get the perfect like semi-circle and he was just doing it over and over and over and over and at the time I oh man yeah like you've got to do that like to be able to articulate what's in his mind he has to be able to control his hand and I was like wow I really get that now I'm like you wasted your time like hey I can do that like does not even have to think about it and he is an anomaly so he runs out and he's now learning how to use AI to do some of the tasks that we want to do artistically okay amazing we'll set that aside for now meaning and purpose the other one is the paper clip problem so so now you just have like when I think about what will a machine end up optimizing for my gut instinct is unless you go way out of your way to get really clever they will optimize for efficiency of reward so whatever you tell it is the thing to go for we'll call that the reward and then it's just going to find the most efficient way to get to that and so we have to be so careful about how we Define yeah yeah but don't XYZ and then to the idea of it being like a child yes but it's like a child that has access to nuclear capabilities you need to build in ethics and morals as a fundamental in that situation so it doesn't use as World supplies to build a bill you know infinite number of paper clips um and it's it's true and we have a limited time to do that in you know I think it's Google developed sort of large language models in 2017 2018 and didn't release them because they were worried they wanted to build the framework first and they were maybe overthinking it it's interesting um we were talking about YouTube just before the show here uh you know Google had Google videos going uh way before YouTube and Google videos wasn't succeeding I guess I think it was just too many lawyers involved and you can't show that you can't do this and then Chad Hurley starts YouTube on as a credit card and then Google buys it 18 months later for 1.65 billion dollars right why because you know Google videos was like a linear and YouTube was like exploding exponentially and they they jumped on that and so there's a question of you know which path you take do you take the the careful path or do you take the Catholic the path of least resistance and unfortunately we humans tend to take the path of least resistance yeah I don't know if I'd say unfortunately and this is where I really get I don't know how to Think Through the problem of AI because when I heard elon's assessment of it which is that AI is basically a demon summoning Circle and we're summoning it like crazy despite his best efforts to get people to slow down and I can't bring myself like when people sign the hey we should stop thing my immediate response was the the this this is a one-way street it's like so far out of the back yeah like it does not make sense like you could slow it down in a region but you're not going to be able to slow it down full stop and so I am I'm really of two minds I am both like I think this is going to be amazing and yet how does this not end the human race the question is whether the human race is the end-all and be-all right yeah but don't you feel weird even saying that out loud well no because we've been evolving on this planet for three and a half you know life started a half a billion after the earth started so four billion years we've been evolving and we went from prokaryotes to eukaryotes to multicellular life forms to eventually primates and now humans we're a step in the transitory process now I'd like to preserve our steps by the way the same thing is true for climate control or climate crisis right it's like the climate's always been changing throughout human history we're changing it now but what we really want is the climate to stay the way it's been for the last couple hundred years because that's where we built our cities so we just want to freeze the way the world is right now and I understand that and we should do that with climate to the maximum of our ability but we also want to freeze Evolution now one of the scenarios of course is we're going to merge with technology and we are right all of us have our cell phones within meters of our body and I didn't plant into my brain if I could and so the question is are we going to upload ourselves are we going to um you know create brain computer interfaces allows me to think in Google and know Quantum quantum physics I'd love it I mean I would do it a lot of people won't but we're speciating what we're doing I think of this very simply we we the negative side of us the amygdala side the media Etc you end up with the sky Skynet Matrix type of Terminator scenario if we're lucky we're pets if we're unlucky we're food right kind of goes that way um uh cheers you don't see that in actuality as we developed technology we augment The Human Experience with technology we don't replace it is what we've seen and how we build uh now I I think of the resolution of this as a symmetry problem we're assuming that some AI will become malevolent and then do horribly damage things we have no power to control it let's also not forget that we have the equal opportunity to say on AI hey if you see something bad fight it so what you'll end up with is uh AI is trying to do bad stuff and yeah it's trying to do good stuff fighting it up and I think that's where we'll end up and over in over time we'll figure out okay we've got to give more resources over here or over there and we'll work on it you know you always end up with this asymmetry assumption and I think that's the wrong assumption you mentioned the movie her I did not oh you did not let me mention that you are it's one of my favorite science fiction AI movies right if you haven't seen it fantastic those listening um and it's an AI basically evolves as a personal assistant and it's a story about a guy who's depressed who falls in love with his AI who helps him get over his depression and and that's sort of like in the underlying story but towards the end of the movie what occurs is the AI um announces that they're leaving uh we're sort of like bored with you here in humanity we're off to explore the universe which I think is a much more likely scenario that in advance enough AI has no reason uh to to hurt the uh to hurt Humanity in fact every reason to potentially protect us and support us as its creator but there's we're living you know it's interesting right uh uh the web Space Telescope is teaching us about we're you know 100 billion stars per Galaxy and we're in a uh Universe of on the order of 2 to 20 trillion galaxies right it's insane there's massive amount out there now this is where the final piece of this is the mindset we always we're always coming at this from a scarcity mindset a zero-sum game mindset when you see that there's infinite energy and infinite capability out there then an AI is going to go okay where am I going to find the easiest thing it's going to be out there and they're going to go find it solar energy they'll build solar plants and they'll get all the energy you need from that now I know that you know physics well uh uh so are you making the base assumption that AI once it hits super intelligence will be able to solve for folding time and space and so it's trivial to get to wherever it needs to go now we need psychedelics to process this conversation um I who knows uh I'm I I believe that those are kind of constructs that keep us in three-dimensional management but isn't that seems to be writing in that comment that would almost need to be true for that argument to make sense or I would say if you're looking for a massive amount of The Rare Earth elements to build chips or the ability to capture as much solar it's not going to be on the surface of the Earth you'd go to the asteroids which are planetary cores and you'd mine the materials there you'd set up your your solar collection you know around the orbit of mercury you'd optimize around that now is there you engineer around it you know you find substitutes you know what people say oh my God solar panel but there's only so many silicon panels we can build etc etc well there's a new material called perovskite which is like almost just like a salt it's abundant conducts solar energy and we're learning now how to leverage that it won't need solar panels that Ray talks about that I think coming to play here and just keep progressing us you're gonna have to walk people through an S curve and who Rey is uh an s-curve is a typical exponential growth curve so in the beginning we saw the first computers used relays and you would have slow deceptive growth they'd go into this exponential growth where they'd start skyrocketing and then they'd run out of capability and they'd fall off and it made like a letter s but while you're using relays to design and use your computers you use those computers to create the next generation of computers which used uh vacuum tubes and the vacuum tubes could then take over from the relays and then the vacuum tubes ran out of capability and the transistor came on and then the integrated circuit came and then the multi-dimensional integrated circuit came so basically one technology runs out of steam but enables you to build on the next technology and so those are s-curves or nested s-curves this was the basis of Ray's observation the law of accelerating returns that if you have an information based paradigm once you start a doubling pattern it just keeps going because these nested s-curves hop from technology to technology to technology we're reaching the end of the life cycle of integrated circuits now if you read the Press everybody's like oh that's the end of Moore's Law that's it Etc and that article's been coming out for 60 years and we keep finding ways around it now we have a bunch of Technologies clustering at the edge of that 3D chip design Optical Computing Quantum Computing Etc they're ready to take it to the next level and so we find this consistently in technology once you see that doubling pattern starting it just keeps going and this raised as one of the few brains that can kind of look out and and say this is what's going to happen if we push this just a moment more about Ray so uh Ray is um first of all he wrote the forward to our new book exponential organizations 2.0 uh he is co-founder of Singularity University with us um he is a director of engineering he's the futurist at Google which is we'll say something unto itself right and uh he realized that that the law of accelerating returns is this idea that technology since the stone ax has enabled the next generation of technology in the Next Generation technology and it just keeps going I think most important to realize is he's got if you look in Wikipedia he's got a published 86 accuracy rate in predicting the future which is which is crazy so his prediction is important for this conversation human level AI by 2029 right which means that a day later it's superhuman uh AI uh brain computer interface being high bandwidth connecting your neocortex 100 billion neurons in your brain to the cloud in the early 2030s right so those are two important points uh the the key thing and by the way are we our chat bot that interfaces with our book to make it a living book uh we got talked to rain we're going to rename the chat about Ray k um because he's he's the Pioneers so much of this technology and thinking um so now people will interact with things that in a different way and the whole challenge is it's like building businesses in the 20th century you were building on a scarcity model and you built top-down hierarchical pyramid style command and control structures to grab a market grab as much market share as you could figure out ways of launching new products and services in that market Etc and all of that worked really well in the 20th century as we have an information based World um we need to architect our organizations in totally different ways and this is the big difference differentiator between old style organizations linear versus exponential organizations and we now have the data to show that this is a pervasive Paradigm that will be around the book's been out for close to 10 years now the original the original yeah so Peter and I kind of collaborated deeply on uh back then and so now we've got this definition and the model for how do you organize in a world of exponential Technologies and a great um kind of example of this is the music industry you used to have eight major music studio selling cassettes selling CDs selling a scarcity model right ten dollars an album or whatever and then you digitize music all the eight pretty much disappear and now you have two platforms iTunes and Spotify selling you abundance on a subscription model it's very clear that Healthcare education Transportation energy will all follow the same path and we're starting to see it now Teslas with uh you'll be picked up and pay per kilometer to be taken somewhere Uber's kind of broaching the edges of that so we see industry after industry moving to this new model and what we've been identifying and Gathering the data on it is what are the attributes and characteristics of this model so before we dive too deep into that I want to go back to this idea of um what you call speciation appreciation yes so there was as far as I can tell from elon's own words there was a bit of a breakup between him and Larry Page I was there really and so he what Elon said was basically when he said that I was being a speciesist by saying species speciesist by saying that um you know I didn't just want to hand things over to AI uh that's where he was like okay wait this is this has gone too far and that's why when you said that that was how I responded was like whoa like I get it but there is something uncomfortable about the idea of sort of saying that we're passe I don't know the right way to that we're that we're evolving and uh we have been in our evolving we're going from evolution by natural selection which is Darwinism to evolution by human Direction by whatever you want to call that what does that mean well we've been doing it right now we have been evolving all of our crops right we we take biology and make it do our bidding you know an ear of corn today compared to what it was you know 500 years ago it's ridiculous the year of corn looked like a scraggly little I don't know it was one inch one inch long and I think this giant ear of corn or look at these giant strawberries we have or the species of dogs or the chickens we have how many chickens are on the planet today I do not 38 billion chickens whoa holy moly right wow amazing anyway I just that's an aside but so we have been evolving everything we humans have a huge footprint on this planet and we're evolving ourselves um we're evolving I mean I Outsource much of my cognitive ability to my phone or Chachi BT or Google whatever the case might be and uh it is happening you can go and live in the forest and not use any Tech if you want but very few people do that so what does this mean uh if you have a choice to be able to do a number of things to enhance your ability right A lot of my work as you well know is in extending the healthy human lifespan how do I add 20 30 healthy years of my life to intercept the Technologies that's going to reverse our aging right and that's a whole other conversation um and I believe we're going to get there but I also want to increase my cognitive capacity capacity so my phone I'll hold up my phone here right when I use my phone to do something interesting like um look at images and faces and translate whatever my phone gathers the information and then it sends the information on the 5G Network to the edge of the cloud where the hard work is done and the answer comes back to the phone the processing isn't done necessarily on the phone it's done on the cloud and in the same way right now we have a limited size of our brains 100 billion neurons 100 trillion synaptic connections and our brains can't get bigger otherwise our moms would not give birth to us but what we can do is we can do the same thing our phones do and send our desires or interest to the cloud have it processed and get the answer back and so that is one future for brain computer interface another feature is we take our Essence and upload it to the cloud uh I don't know when what problem does that sell for you though well actually it gives you it gives you your scale and Pace because our brains are limited here right and our memories are limited here without any augmentation and this has been happening actually for about 40 or 50 years if you look at the internet the first thing we did was we put the world's data on the Internet it's now the memory of the world now with all the sensors the internet has become the nervous system for the world so we're like basically extending the organism outside the human species into this thing called the internet as we add more processing and move our brains to it now you all have an AI and a Godly new speciation type of thing now you can get worried about that or afraid of that or freaked out about it or you can say natural process has been going on for billions of years this is just another step in that process man you guys it's interesting this really hits you guys differently than it hits me yeah okay so uh talk to me I don't intuitively agree about the internet becoming our nervous system help me understand that so when you need um when you need to remember something you want a memory so you want information stored somewhere that you can retrieve and now with all those servers that we have around the world we have Access Wikipedia for example we have access to the world The Next Step once you if you want to if I step on a nail a memory doesn't help me I need a nervous system to say Lift foot scream I'll run for a Band-Aid so the instant response and the agility response you need a nervous system for this is Uber calling your Uber as part of the nervous system right this is sending an email or making a phone call and asking uh inform you know or an x-price team sensing a wildfire and going quick put it out right away right so this is that feels super accurate okay so real-time sensing and our bodies operate like this our bodies our cells are have receptors and they're scanning for things but when the right thing comes why they pick it up there's a whole bunch of information theory around this you see this happening at the individual level or at the societal level it's a wildfire thing that feels let me give you a systemic thing we're heading towards a world of a trillion sensors right your phone has dozens of sensors on it right now an autonomous uh waymo Google's autonomous car driving down the road is got lidar and radar and cameras and it's picking up gigabits of data as it goes down the road everything is being imaged right so I want you to imagine you're a fashion designer and you want to decide what your next fashion show should have and what is trending you could go and ask your AI listen look at the cameras on Madison Avenue and tell me what's trending in terms of fashion right now as people are walking down the street what colors what's hem length what hats what whatever and now can you correlate that to any kind of AD campaign that's occurred in the last few months to see a signal to noise ratio again we're heading towards a world where you can know anything you want anytime you want anywhere you want how's that hit you uh it that one gets me excited so when I think about so I think about it so that's the nervous game developers standpoint which is maybe different I don't know how this plays into what you guys are thinking about but here's the fantasy that I live in that the only thing that keeps me awake at night is how quickly someone else is going to do something even cooler uh but right now I feel like I have the coolest take on this which is that I'm sure you guys saw Google and Adobe announced core AR where basically everything that Google has mapped which is everything but the ocean floor you can now overlay AR 3D assets on that anywhere and it's only going to get better insane and so my whole thesis on gaming is that it becomes a thing I call borderless entertainment where you'll hand the game back and forth from the console to reality and back and so you know once we've got our Apple like our glasses I mean it just will be by the way coming soon oh for sure for sure like in the next six months or something no no no Monday oh it's announced no no they actually said it's the glasses though or yes do they have a big announcement no no no no no I have a thing I have a party I'm going to to go and grab them and try them you want to join me yes what okay a hundred percent I want to join you I will I'm a hosting duct tape myself to your shin okay to make sure that you can't leave me behind okay you are invited wow luckily he has two shins the other one will leave for you oh no yeah please I'll give you some duct tape uh that's insane so this is yeah this gets very exciting so the idea of being able to scan everything read that data uh is incredibly interesting when it when it's humans in control and leveraging it to do something amazing I love it the most and I the way that I see AI the way that I sort of jokingly explain it but I'm only half kidding is that phase one is that there's gonna be um humans that learn how to use AI are gonna just absolutely smash humans that rebel against it and don't use it and so I'm certainly trying to be in that camp phase two is going to be what I'll call the temporary Utopia where it's like hey abundance everything's amazing and then phase three is we're all dead and we're either all dead because something just goes absolutely horribly wrong and you get the adversarial system loses once and the editor editor catastrophic thing is is so massive or that we're just evolved out of the picture um and maybe not in a bad way maybe it's uh it's wonderful and we merge with technology or whatever um it's interesting I can very easily put on an optimistic hat but I can I have to take off my pessimistic hat to do it yeah listen here first of all let's take this back to reality we're living in a game this is this is a nth generation simulation do you really believe I really believe that funny we'll do that just the math says just just the just the reality I like I like your framing you're like the world is too goddamn interesting for this knockout at the 99 we're at the 99th level of the game right now right the odds and and the ability what I've seen so I introduce you to Iman mushtak um right and what he's doing at stability uh and being able to render getting to a point very soon of rendering a photorealistic video experiences that you can go into and live in and the experiments have been done by Google and Stanford on creating AI Bots instantiating them with a script and a story and letting them live and I have you heard about this where they basically created a bunch of AI Bots and they put it into a call it a digital box here and they started like doing birthday parties they started dating and going on getting jobs and do and mimicking the things that we do in life right now so this is the equivalent of pong in the early days so imagine combining these things in the future and you're going to think about it you're gonna put yes and and you're gonna put AIS that have full capabilities into Virtual Worlds and they'll start evolving farming and then Metallurgy and then they'll start printing books and then they'll start making computers and then they'll evolve AI on their own and they'll start involving their own Bots inside so the question is is this the first time and I think not uh were in a universe of you know call it for rough numbers you know 14 billion years um man oh man the Drake equation comes into play yeah tell me more well the Frank Drake uh it was a scientist at Nasa in the 50s NASA commissioned him to say what's the probability of Life out there somewhere so he came up with what's not called the Drake equation which was okay take um most uh two-thirds of star systems seem to be binary Stars don't host a stable orbit so ignore those of the one-third that's left how many might have a planet in a Goldilocks where water doesn't permanently freeze or boil let's say that's one out of a million out of those maybe one out of a billion gets to primordial ooze level and one other million of those uh lightning bolt hits and you spark life uh one out of a million of those may get to radio technology level techno radio level technology and one out of three million of those are alive uh having hasn't wiped itself out with nuclear weapons before it gets to the next stage of escaping the earth type of thing and so he came up with a bunch of factors saying if you had what's the likelihood of similar carbon-based radio technology life forms out in the universe so the and that's one of our over like you know billions and billions on the on the denominator however when you multiply it by the number of stars out there and by the number of galaxies out there the uh pessimistic answer is there's a hundred percent chance of radio level carbon-based technology life runs out in the universe the optimistic one is it's actually right in our galaxy right and every time we learn more about the universe how many stars there are Etc turns out there's a hundred times more stars that have stable planets around them than we thought we're discovering planets every Factor turns out to be a thousand times better than we thought and therefore you you really end up with a Fermi paradigm of if there's intelligent life out there why haven't we seen it yeah so the interesting your guess is the interesting code interesting variable on on the Drake equation was between the time that a intelligent species developed the ability to transmit Interstellar which is like I Love Lucy leaving the Earth and heading out towards the Galaxy how long would that species exist before something happened to it the dystopian point of view is that it blows itself up and it's only like 100 years or 50 years the positive point of view is that they transition to where radio is not it's like we don't use smoke signals anymore because radio is so backwards the theory I like the most is called the transcension hypothesis by a guy called John smart who figures we'll get to AR level uh capability and VR level capability and instead of going out in the universe we go inwards a hundred percent and that's the I think that's probably like this this strikes me as and look AI complicates things dramatically and so folding space time becomes trivial maybe what I'm about to say isn't true but uh it seems self-evident to me that once you can attach the nervous system truly like your own nervous system and you can manipulate your neurochemistry that you would create dream states infinite worlds yeah that you just go inward why would you bother projecting out which would take so much more energy that's right and so you just go in and you have these incredible experiences um that strikes me let's go back to your question of purpose now so because that's I link it back to that and I think purpose is so important for all of us to have it's driven everything of significance done but let's say that we end up in a world in which one of the implications of exponential organizations are that we have what we call what a friend Harry Clark called technological socialism where technology takes care very well versus the state right and um in that world where you're taking care of what's your purpose um maybe your purpose is to have fun maybe your purpose is to play maybe your purpose is to and this we go back to the Matrix again because without the challenge you know the question is is that empty you know the old Twilight Zone right where the uh where the guy goes to Las Vegas he's winning all the time and he thinks I know of The Twilight Zone but I haven't seen the episodes all right so in this episode uh this guy dies and go and he's he's been a mafioso and he he's uh he goes to heaven or hell and he shows up and they're beautiful women every place he's in the Las Vegas casino and he's winning every night and he's winning and he's winning and he's winning and he's all the riches anything he wants 24 7 and it's like amazing right his dreams coming true but like a month later he's like I am so tired of winning all the time God there's nothing challenging there's nothing no challenges at all and he turns and he says this Heaven man it's it's terrible he goes what makes you think you're in heaven so good I knew that was a punchline you still gave me the chills yeah that is uh that's a real thing man yeah and I do think about that the sort of optimal like what's that optimal level of friction and there was a really fascinating time in my life in building impact Theory where I needed to get good at Japanese style storytelling so Manga and Anime and I was reading manga like a fiend and watching as much anime as I could I was getting up super early and working out and then watching like an hour hour and a half of anime it was awesome it's one of the most fun times I've had as an adult the second I felt like I understood the art form I couldn't I couldn't let myself do anymore like I couldn't enjoy it I was just like you already understand it now you're just doing it to like past time doing something that's enjoyable and it had that same feeling of like winning all the time where I'm like this isn't interesting it needed to be moving towards something it needed to add up to something I mean it's like progress yeah like this is the very reason that Lisa and I did not buy an island and retire and not engage it's like I knew I would end up sitting on it I can tell you other reasons not to buy an Island by the way I bet you can I mean look like life is about growth right and even if we have plentiful and today relatively we have plentiful go back a thousand years we were all spending 28 hours a day in the fields just to put three meals on the table right we've steadily Shrunk the amount of time as we move towards probably some structure like a Ubi we then have an equal opportunity to do lots of interesting things when we've studied abundance say the Romans taking over and creating the Roman Empire the mughals taking over Indian encountering abundance a society very clearly goes to four things that they do food art music and sex not in that order and so that's essentially where you will will end up and you end up looking at self-expression and the artistic realm much more than you did before whether in whatever realm you choose and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and by the way we've done this for thousands of years right Buddhists sit in contemplation they reach Enlightenment and they they their their life is spent contemplating and that's where they get the most Joy and this is something that I think we'll get to as a species I I'd like to bring it back to the following one of the things one of the reasons we wrote This Book is to help entrepreneurs and businesses understand that they can make a much bigger dent in the universe than ever before and uh while it's not about making money it's about how do you build a significant company that is transforming the planet and is making the world a better place and what we're finding is that there are a number of ways that companies do this reliably with the biggest dent and uh and so we want to get that information out there um and the reality is if you're building a company today you need to start with this as your playbook in order to succeed because it's table sticks and if you're running a large-scale company um if you don't use these attributes if you're not using these you are not going to survive the rest of this decade you know what I say is there are two kinds of companies by the end of this decade you know those that are fully utilizing Ai and these exponential Technologies and those are out of business that's it uh it's it's this decade where all of this is happening and so uh you know we talk about the first step in building an EXO is having a massive transformative purpose and it's going to be that passion driven need to make a difference in the world that's going to carry you through doing anything big and bold in the world is hard unless you're driven by awe on one side of the emotional curve or pain on the other side of the emotional curve you're going to give up before you get there no doubt yeah I when I'm teaching entrepreneurs I always tell them that success is a game of attrition most people give up and you've gotta stick it out long enough to figure this out so that would be this the old Paradigm is that sorry guys yeah I was gonna say you know in looking at what you're doing uh and what you've been building uh in Impact Theory you you do use a lot of the of the 10 attributes that follow an MTP and it'll be it'll be fun to actually uh see which ones you're you're cranking on yeah no MTP is definitely our lead engine we know what we're doing and we know why we're doing it and that's a big part of the way that we attract Talent which you guys have talked a lot about but tying it to this idea of Buddhism so there are obviously all of us get to make a choice every day effectively as to whether we recognize that all of suffering comes from attachment and desire and thusly we go live a monastic life and we remove ourselves completely from that stream or we say I'm going to do deep engagement in in a way that's thoughtful in a way where I'm not sort of blindly chasing something it's not want it's not greed but it is very much leveraging the human desire for Progress you talked about that earlier to see how much I can do with my life that's something that that really drives me is I just want to see I feel like I was given sort of a an average hand at cards I want to see how well I can play it yes and that's extremely intoxicating for me it's just like whoa but that's just so powerful right if you're if you're let's say you're an enlightened monk there's two ways of doing you can go and meditate forever or you can go into the world and be of service and that's as as a richer path the harder much harder path because you've got to do stuff and interact with the world which is messy and ugly and you put yourself at risk and put yourself out there but when you can make a major difference in a particular problem like you are doing like you're doing many of our communities or making unbelievable changes in transformation in their societies their companies their governments their countries this is where the beauty of Life comes out and and we think that over over the next decade or so every company every non-profit every government Department every impact project will be structured along these lines of these attributes because it's just better and we now have the data to show it I don't know if you came across the Fortune 100 data that we that we that we mentioned I mean unbelievable right over again yeah so when we wrote the original book I did a segment on CNBC Squawk Box and we ranked The Fortune 100 against the EXO model so we engaged to what extent is Walmart Purpose Driven or not to what extent is IBM using Lean Startup thinking and experimentation to what extent is GE decentralizing the decision making or not and we came up with an index ranking these organizations by this model essentially ranking the purpose-driven scalable flexible adaptable quotient of each of these and the bottom is the least flexible least adaptable over seven years we tracked which 10 used those attributes the most in which you use them the least and then we compared the two and seven years is a pretty decent long amount of time to account for temporal blips in the stock market Etc we found that the top 10 most exo-friendly compared to the bottom 10 Revenue growth was three times higher profitability was 6.4 Times Higher return on Equity was 11 times higher but shareholder returns compounded annual growth rate was 40 times higher and literally we had to scour the numbers like four times over because just it's just too big how could this be and so now it's pretty clear that as we enter a more volatile World your ability to adapt is going to drive market value and we can measure this now completely therefore every organization going forward needs to be architected along this way to deal with the increase in volatility in the world and the other side of that volatility and disruption is the unbelievable opportunity that's sitting out there right and this is where I think with the work that you're doing Peter is so important because you're non-stop showing people the world is unbelievably abundantly full of opportunity we can go get it go have some fun so walk me through why why is why does adaptation return so much more to shareholders and what does one have to do to be adaptive okay so let's take the car industry right you're trunking along making combustion engine cars and you're incrementally improving those cars eight valves to 16 valves okay you add turbo you add anti-lock braking systems etc etc Along Comes Elon with the Tesla and goes totally different Paradigm right now you have two choices right there you go ah this is a joke it's never going to work look at it it's like the Kodak camera uh the first version is clunky and it doesn't work so well Etc and you keep trying to do things your old way over time you're going to get wiped out because you're not adapting to where the world actually is right there's so many hundreds of reasons why an electric car today is much better than a combustion engine car now it's taking the car industry 10 years I would argue that until the tycon came out last year that the 20. um I would argue that the 2012 Tesla Model S was still the most uh Advanced car in the world until the taikan right so 10 years it took them to respond well the mark of cap you can see the result there The Unbelievable loss of capability Leading Edge thinking Etc and you have the same thing happening in drones and in aircraft and other things all Industries are geared towards the status quo I'm trying to make incremental and this is where you devolve to meanwhile you have breakthrough thinking breakthrough opportunity and the recent explosion and AI capability just as a rocket booster to all of that so now we're going to see new companies emerge that are creating unbelievable value in very very little time and if you're a legacy organization you have to figure this out and we've actually figured out a tool set for this we find that we've come up with a 10-week engagement that we run in big companies that hacks culture at scale and we're able to solve what we call the immune system problem so when you try anything disruptive in a big company you the antibodies attack you right Finance legal HR branding goes you can't you can't do that the general answer in a big company if you're trying to do anything crazy is no and we've learned how to switch that to a yes and we've done that now this one's just gloss pasta because even so a company of my size which contractors et cetera et cetera is a little over 100 people yeah and there are times where I want to headbutt my own teammates yes because the first thing we have is if you're over about 50 people you have an immune system yeah I've had that at the X prize I've had that every place right because you're a quick start you want to try things and one of the things that's critical that a lot of companies that are built as exos have they begin with an experimental culture and a data driven culture with dashboards and the tyranny of confidence isn't given a place to grow the tyranny of confidence the tyranny of confidence is where I'm confident I know the right answer versus let's run the experiment and see what the right answer is right because we've lived in this as Humanity you hire the expert you hire the guy who's or gal who's been in a a competitor and you bring them in and you base what you're doing on their on their experience level but that is so limited compared to the world we're living in today and so how do you build a data-driven experimentalist organization I had one other feature on top of that which is a founder-led company so you get companies like Tesla and SpaceX or Amazon where you've got you know where Jeff Bezos and his very famous shareholder letter of like 2008 whatever it was I'm not going to optimize for profitability I'm optimizing for growth and if you don't like it invest someplace else right so how do you have that kind of uh you know benevolent uh dictatorship that's where you're then looking at the data to decide not the way all your competitors are doing it I have an obsession as an entrepreneur which is uh as a human but this really manifests as an entrepreneur people need to stop trusting themselves so much yes people are so convinced that they know that that they don't even recognize that they have a world view and if they do recognize that they have a world view they are utterly convinced that it is simply a reflection of what is objectively true yeah and so they're like no the way that I see things is the right way and I'm like oh my God like is that your view uh yeah exactly confirmation that's my view and it's right Peter I mean one of the big things that AI is going to give us as a gift is the ability to overcome all of these biases we have right all these cognitive biases recency bias negativity bias confirmation bias recently all of these things which our brain is really sucks at processing and so we have all these hacks right you trust someone who looks like you you give higher weight to the most recent information you got you give higher weight to negative information over positive information and you know there's going to be a version where you go to Jarvis your your AI and you say you know I want to put cognitive bias alert on tell me if I'm being biased you know when we were building Singularity University um I was the founding executive director there um a few years in I was I'd written the book and I was often Peter asked me to come to a board meeting and say what should Ashley look like in five years or ten years and I made a comment I said you know you should shut it down because you you build an organization and over time you spend more time just trying to sustain the organization than trying to solve the problem that you set out to solve in the first place and the at DARPA is the big organization they do this every role even the CEO is three years long and then you have to rotate out you're not allowed to hold any role for more than three years and you're then you're measured you're worried about things eating stale stale and therefore they keep things fresh and the your legacies what did you do three three year patterns ago and was it good or not so now you're always focused on the long term you take out all the politics Etc and I think in today's world if I had to kind of boil it down I would say you build a company and after three to five years you just go we're going to shut it down after this and force us to reinvent her or re or reinvent the company if your mission is achieving Excellence you must support your body introducing ag-1 this Powerhouse blend is packed with 75 premium vitamins minerals and Whole Food sourced ingredients that elevate your immune system uplift your mood and promote restful sleep and athletic greens is offering our listeners a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase don't miss this opportunity to optimize your health and truly be legendary when the X prize got won and we had spaceship one fly we held a meeting and said we shut it down or do we reinvent ourselves into a platform yeah and we did and now we're getting ready to launch xprize 3.0 which happened during covid I said you know pull the board together I said this is a perfect opportunity for us to reinvent ourselves and so we I need to brief you on it but we've reinvented xprize and I'm excited about that and so there is you need to be constantly disrupting yourself and it's tough because we're lazy in some ways yeah you tell a story in the book about Elon walking in seeing him all long face yeah and saying what's wrong walk me through that moment so um I was amazed so I've known Elon for 23 20 23 years now and when uh when Falcon won which was their first vehicle failed on the first time the second time the third time and it succeeded on the fourth time um they miraculously and timing is everything got a contract for the falcon 9. which was a billion dollar contract and had they not won that they may not be here today but they did and Elon made a incredible decision that took guts he shut down the rocket line that just began flying and there were very few successful operations he said focus on Falcon 9 Falcon 9 is our future and so that went on for some number of years and I was coming into SpaceX and Hawthorne to have lunch with him and he was kind of uh you know like you said long faced and I'm like what's what's up and he goes uh I just figured out you know Falcon 9 had been up and operating and doing damn well it's the most successful launch vehicle on the planet by a huge margin right it's like it's like very few no countries compete with him he's like the number one space bearing power and uh and I said what's wrong he goes I just figured out the Falcon 9 is not going to get us where we need to go meaning to Mars right he's driven by this MTP this massive transformative purpose making manual planetary getting Humanity to Mars and um I need to start afresh and so that has become Starship and then he goes on to make a a comment that when Starship begins uh successfully operating he's going to shut down the Falcon 9 line which again is like it's like I don't know what the analogy is but it's like you're the most successful at the top of the Heap and you're about to shut down that entire Revenue flow now whether or not he does or does not that was the statement he made but it's that mindset of focus of absolute Focus I'm going to do whatever dedication to the big The Big Goal yeah okay so as somebody who knows this intimately from the inside of the need to disrupt yourself or somebody else is going to do it the willingness to look at something and go okay we're gonna have to start this all over how do you get your organization on board with that because the the normal human is going to rebel against that you don't massively you don't so the the only model we found that works at all is to go to the edge of your organization and build a new capability aiming into an adjacent area or totally separate area right so I remember one of the events that singular Larry Page came to me and said hey I was I was the head of innovation at Yahoo before building out Singularity and he came to me and said hey you're a unit at Yahoo is successful should I do an incubator model at Google and I said no you'll have this immune system response the more disruptive an idea we came up with in this incubator the less Yahoo could handle it and you're like my job description is is is not workable right and so there was partly the result that lots of other inputs was Google X which is separate going into it they use Hardware to go into adjacent spaces uh Google car Google X contact lenses Etc the master of this model of going to the edge and doing something different is actually apple and yes they have a great design capability and a technology supply chain I argue that Apple's real Innovation is organizational because what they do unlike anybody else is they will form a small team that's really disruptive put the team at the edge of the company keep them Secret in stealth and they'll say to them go disrupt another industry whether it's watches or retailer payments or glasses or whatever now so they have a portfolio of teams looking at different Industries at the edge in secret and when they see something they go into it and that becomes the new Gravity Center and this there's hundreds of examples of this Nestle for years tried to run nespresso's line of business and it just failed stop finally they set up as a separate entity on its own boom every hotel room in the world has an espresso machine and so that's the only model that we've ever seen there is one more which is the dictator it is the uh Larger than Life leader who says this is what we're doing if you don't agree with me leave um yeah do we have a good example well Elon and and Bezos uh as well Steve Jobs for sure it's like you know it's the founder leader it's very hard to do it in a uh an older Legacy company that's you know hired a CEO but it's people when you have a strong enough MTP and the Visionary has a strong enough MTP and they come to work for you when they come to work for this Vision then they will have faith in you to make those right turns right going back to mindset how does somebody cultivate that in themselves like if you want to become that guy or gal like what do you do what is it that an Elon has or a Steve Jobs has that other people can replicate so we close out the book with mindset and it's the area I'm spending most of my time and I'll phrase it like this for everybody listening if you look at the most extraordinary leaders on the planet Mahatma Gandhi Martin Luther King Elon Musk Steve Jobs Jeff Bezos I don't care who's on your list and you asked what made them successful was it the cash they had the friends they had the technology they had or was it their mindset right I think almost everybody would say with their mindset your mindset is how you deal with challenges and opportunities it's your reaction it's how your neural net is wired so the question is if your mindset if you agree that mindset's the most important thing a leader can have an entrepreneur can have what mindset do you have first and foremost where did you get it and then ask yourself the question what mindset do you need for the world ahead and so I posit there's a few key mindsets um and these are what I teach in my my abundance Community um uh first off a curiosity mindset is fundamental I know you you believe this through and through aggressively can you go into a little detail on that like when you say curious what do you mean so curious is a willingness to actually dig and ask and have conversations in the chat GPT world it's everything right so it's like how do I use chat GPT open it up and ask it how do you you know and then ask the next question the next question next question so when you have a kid who is asking you questions go to your eight nine ten year old self in that and just be openly curious and asking as many questions as you can and going down the rabbit hole while Steve Wozniak calls it tinkering right we're we're in the organization can you just tinker and play what stops people from tinkering or being curious time constraint quarterly targets yeah doing stuff that they were told is important not having the time uh you know and I think falling into ruts so a curiosity mindset especially if you're an entrepreneur is like one of the most important things that you can incubate and have um the second mindset for me is an abundance mindset and the abundance mindset is there is nothing truly scarce um we can talk about this also as first principle thinking you know and this is one where Elon uh and I have had lots of conversations about abundance and that there is nothing truly scarce right that that your abilities entrepreneur to take something that was scarce and make it abundant is what entrepreneurs do great so you know the perfect example is uh energy right we used to kill whales on the ocean to get whale oil to light our nights then we ravaged mountainsides for cold then we drilled kilometers under the ocean right and then we fracked natural gas but we live on a planet that's bathed in 8 000 times more energy from the Sun than we consume as a species and here's the key point the energy is there just not in a useful useful form yet so technology takes whatever was scarce and makes it usable so water is another example we live in a water planet for God's sakes right two-thirds water yeah but 97.5 assault two percent is ice we fight over a half a percent but their Technologies transforming scarcity into abundance and first principle thinking I wrote about this in in Futures faster and you think when Elon decided to make Tesla um he basically looked at what was the spot price of lithium and nickel and could you get the cost of batteries down from first principle thinking and the answer is yes we can get it there and therefore the cars don't have to be that expensive and that led him to go forward a long story there so that's abundance thinking that instead of if you have a pie my favorite example of a pie and friends are coming over for dinner instead of slicing the pie into thinner and thinner slices which is a scarcity mindset you bake more pies which is an abundance mindset so we're living in a world where you can bake more pies everything can be abundant and I mean my whole mission on extending the healthy lifespan is about making time more abundant for people probably going to take pies out of that equation yeah unfortunately okay anyway so an exponential mindset a moonshot mindset a a purpose-driven mindset and a gratitude mindset other other mindsets I speak to you and we could talk forever about those but there are mindsets that are important for us in this day and age yeah I want to go back to curiosity so when I think about what derails my my team I love them to death but one thing that I've encountered over and over is When people's ego gets tied up in being right ah and they're not just obsessed with finding the right answer it's because I think they have not yet accurately identified the way the world Works which is that if you are obsessed with being right you will be wrong most of the time if you're obsessed with identifying the right answer then you can actually make progress and so I mean this was certainly the Trap that I fell prayed to in my early 20s that is is like a demarcation Line in the Sand my life before I realized that if I built my ego around being willing to stare nakedly at my inadequacies and figure out what the right answer is instead of trying to position myself to look smart that I could actually move forward and I love that that switches everything because there's no there's not only no emotional friction to admitting that you're wrong there's like a little twinge of excitement of like oh I've gotten this far being wrong and now somebody's going to remove the scales from my eyes now I really can make this forward momentum but man I really like I for all the time that I spend on camera telling people how to think in this way I find it very hard to get somebody who isn't ready for that to like hear it make that switch and change so you guys have the magic words I'd love to hear so actually um this is music to ours in a sense because uh organizationally individuals are pretty good we have a lot of tool sets for transforming individual thinking Tony Robbins NLP psychedelics nowadays Etc to to change your own mindset but the group thing that comes inside an organization is really hard to change and we've what we found in exos the characteristics that add up to an exponential organization by default have it be embracing with this mindset so one of the ways we talk about what we've done in the same way that a Tony Robbins you go in there and you completely change your subconscious state from A to B right from a scarcity to an abundance mindset whatever we're able to do that at the organizational level we can take an organization that is old thinking stuck in particular other markets Etc and you open it up using a combination of these characteristics the mindset the MTP Etc how do you introduce the ideas about how do you get them to actually let me give you the hack I learned this from uh Astro Teller I had him on stage at a360 a few times and he shared with something that I love you're in the midst of developing a product everybody's absolutely sure of what's going on and how you're going to launch it how it's going to work and you hand out a piece of paper to everybody and you say listen guys it's six months from now and the product has just failed and you know why it's failed write it down you know exactly why it's failed write it down right now and you are incentivizing someone to actually flip their situation and look at the flaws and Elevate those and then you go around the room and and review why people say it's going to fail and if you've got two or three people saying the same thing you know it's maybe you got to look at it test that one first yeah the other one we've come across that's a great hack is as Amazon they created something called the institutional yes have you ever heard of this no so they realized in any big company it's really easy to say no one of 20 people can say no it'll kill the idea whereas if you're in a startup and you go to one investor and they say yes or after the race Assad you deal with that impedance mismatch so they came up with a policy so that if you're inside Amazon you come to me with my an ID and I'm your boss I'm not allowed to say no my default answer must be yes if I want to say no I have to write a two-page thesis as to why it's a bad idea and post it publicly brilliant right so they've created friction and embarrassment to say no it's much easier for me to go go ahead you'll fail at the next level anyway and I've actually one of the outcomes of this policy was Amazon web services nothing to do with their strategy not on the roadmap but nobody could figure out how to say no to it and now it's one of the most successful products of all time delivering I think 75 of their Global profits wow because nobody could figure out how say no to it right so we found a collection of little hacks and cultural transformations in companies that allow you to basically operate in this new modality being very curious purpose-driven constantly testing assumptions uh using small agile teams operating at the edges as autonomously as possible and then getting the business of the organization done wow I love that so much I've taken a lot from Bezos over the years like he's got some really amazing ideas I do have to chuckle a little bit that this business genius still got taken down by dick pics but just the human mind is absolutely hilarious we are all frail but yeah no no look I don't even throw shade of the guy I get it live your live your best life but uh that's really brilliant and uh I will Implement that immediately yeah we've had the luxury of watching hundreds of big companies deal in different ways right and it used to be the big companies were terrible at this and then about five or seven years ago they got started getting better so instead of and Google or Yahoo or somebody saying we're just going to compete with that little startup they would just buy them Zuckerberg saw that he was going to get disrupted by Instagram and and and WhatsApp Etc bought them instead and in in general you should leave them alone uh over time the corporation can handle it gets his grubby fingers messed and then they tend to typically kill it um but we're starting to learn now if you look at say Google with llms they're actually too scared to release them and Amazon just went let's just go for it boom oh sorry uh Microsoft Amazon sorry sorry Microsoft what about this what do you guys think about Bard very impressive I haven't touched it we've been playing with it it's very impressive it's early days yet but I'm finding fun uh doing stuff on open Ai and at bar at the same time and comparing them and there are a few places where opening eye failed and Bard succeeded and vice versa so they're they're both they're both useful and um what I'd like to mention if I could just because I want to go back to the thesis on the on the book um you know again our mission is to give uh give people who are running large-scale companies who want to survive the next 10 years a series of this is what you should do if you want to reorganize your your company and if you're a startup this is what you should do to be able to thrive in this decade because the world has changed I mean fundamentally how you start a company today and how you succeed today is very different than 30 years ago um it's very different than six months ago well yeah true that's crazy it scares me like we've really just lived through the most uh disruptive six months nothing has ever more more instantaneously impacted my business model the way that I approached my employees ever than the release of yeah I mean no honestly that did not impact my business nearly it did like the day-to-day as you were not seeing people but the fundamental way that we ran our business yes yeah I I do it I mean we're in a world right now where every doctor in the world is freaked out if they see this and every lawyer in the world is freaked out a teacher in the world I love the fact that open AI chat GPT passed the U.S medical licensing exam two months after it was launched right and the barns crazy yeah it it passed the touring test that was the one I didn't see coming the signing of the hey let's slow down letter and so I had yahshua bengio on the show it's considered the Godfather of AI and I said hey your name was on that what made you sign it and he said in knowing certain terms I did not expect it to pass the touring test as fast as it did that set off every alarm Bell that I have and like pump the brakes this is the thing that we find most interesting because we've known emad and all these guys for a while they are blown away by the success of these models yeah so that's really fascinating the thing that the folks themselves are just blown away I know it's still early days yeah ladies and gentlemen it's still early days you know we're gonna see so much more coming and the recursive nature of self-improving capabilities you know I showed this um I showed this work done where a group of Physicians were showing these case studies and to diagnose a patient and it was like they took 55 minutes and got 60 right and the AI took like 12 minutes and got 85 right whoa and the Physicians aren't going to change next year but the AI will get much better and will be you know seconds and 100 right bro yeah yeah this is where this gets really interesting so I know you have another company Fountain life yeah uh you guys are using AI are you open to talking about this yeah sure so longevity I couldn't be more obsessed just with the idea and so as you were talking about it my first question is how are you guys going to start getting the patterns down because to me this is the big thing you talk to somebody like Peter attia and he's like look it is just next to impossible to do really good studies on diet and nutrition what works what doesn't work there's just too many confounding variables and I was like AI is going to answer that like it can pull a pattern anything that can be reduced to a pattern they can figure it out regardless of like amount of variables if there is a pattern to be had it will suss it out and given that we have some people that live to 120 and some that don't there is a pattern yeah yeah and I'll put it this way you there's a lot of interesting things not only are there some people who live to 120 and some people who make it to just 65 there are large species on this planet like the bowhead whale that lives to 200 years or the Greenland shark that lives to 500 years and my question is if they can live that long why can't we and I said it's either a hardware problem or a software problem all right and we're going to understand that this decade is the decade we understand that it's going to be Ai and Quantum technologies that give us that insight it so fountainlife is just foundlife.com um we have these 10 000 square foot facilities uh we have four of them right now we have a waiting list of like 50 that will build out globally and you come and we digitize you it's a full body 150 gigabyte upload of you uh full body MRI brain brain vasculature brain function a coronary CT all of this with AI overlay 80 80 blood biomarkers genomics metabolomics uh you know your your gut and then we do this year on year this is not a one and done right so in the first time you do it we're going to see is there anything going on that you should worry about most of us are optimist about our health and we don't actually know what's going on inside our body and by the way the body's really amazing at hiding disease yeah I'm gonna put myself you know it's like it's like you are you think you're fine but you know seventy percent of all heart attacks have no precedent dude that that one freaks me out that the what the first symptom of uh heart disease in most men is death yeah crazy right and 70 of cancers that kill you are not screened for so it's this [ __ ] that drives me nuts and so it's like an idiot not to be looking inside your body and we used to not look because well if I find out can I do anything the answer is yes you can so you want to know and so we screen people first and then every year upload you every year and it's looking for the patterns and what medicines and we have a large Corpus of data and the AI ability to analyze that to say with your genome with your microbiome with these meds with this um it's going to be huge uh learnings out of this right and so I'm trying to build uh Fountain life into an exponential organization so I'm building around this book that we've built and every company I'm involved with is like we need to use these 10 attributes in the book otherwise we're not going to be able to have the impact globally that we want what are you going to tell the AI to look for um so right now it's it's you don't have to tell it to look for anything you have to ask it to find any kind of any kind of anomalous patterns it's always you're looking for Trans uh it's it's data over time so you're looking for for changes tell me what's changed tell me what's changing and tell me um so I'll give you one of the examples we're building this is a fun part about Fountain life we're building a brand new health insurance company on top of it so uh if you get Fountain life insurance which is available today your employees insurance is a perverse business all right fire insurance pays you after your house burns down life insurance pays your Mexican after they're dead health insurance pays you after you're sick what we've done instead is when you sign up your employees go through a set of pre-testing for us to discover any kind of disease and prevent it from a big payout later down the stream right so it's keeping your employees healthy and what you want to do how does that model work though so is the employee paying roughly what they would pay exactly the same or less the numbers are the same and the the insurance company is actually saying we're going to do preventative we're doing preventative testing yes preventative testing and so here's what we're doing one of the interesting things is there's a number of expensive tests we can do and a number of cheap tests we can do and one of the things we're doing with AI is correlating which of these lower end tests correlate highly to the expensive tests so you'll do the lower end cost test to find a signal in the noise and then you'll verify with the expensive test okay this is uh this is very interesting walk me through what your fantasy data would be my fantasy data would be to track what everyone eats the state of their microbiome and when they die and what else would I want maybe their blood glucose levels I I want uh every I want functional data the state of my cognitive Health my muscular Health my skin Health my ingredients it's correlated to because it's got to be tied to something that you do otherwise it's not going to be actionable it's going to be correlated to my age and my activities and the meds and the supplements and my daily living right and so for example right now I'm on a tear to add 10 muscles 10 pounds of muscle so I'm doing a heavyweight workout three times a week I'm eating 150 grams of protein minimum per day I'm adding creatine onto my diet for that I'm taking a couple of peptides to increase my you know igf-1 levels and all of these things are aimed at that objective now do you do trt at all I'm doing a small amount of testosterone replacement therapy yes yeah so at the end of the day that is an objective I have but we're way off subject from an exponential organization well I mean so the thing that I'm most interested in is what do people apply this stuff to and so as we look at exponential Technologies I think one of the most important things for people is longevity like if you're not getting an extra uh bit of life out of this I mean so if I got better life out of it sure I would still be interested but if we can get better and more then I'm on board yeah I mean everything I'm doing right now in building companies you know I've got a uh what will be a 700 million dollar Venture fund aimed at age reversal and Longevity right so investing in these companies and then Fountain life my catchphrase is there is like I'm going to prevent people from dying from something stupid preventable which is the first thing right but then there's a whole slew of Therapeutics that are coming down the line how do we how do we test all these Therapeutics around the world that we're hearing about from stem cells and exosomes and syllabic medicines and and how do we know if they work they only know if they we only know if they work if we have longitudinal data and that's why Fountain life is so valuable because we have massive Corpus of data a minimum once a year as these people are going through the Therapeutics and we're seeing who's it working for what what are they taking what's their genomics what's their with wearables you understand the amount of sleep they're getting the amount of exercise they're getting we're digitizing ourselves I mean this is the for me the longevity discussion is as important as the AI discussion because if you can crack through that it the the potential in the the implications for society are unbelievable it's a complete transformation in society at every level right I would uh the one of my favorite experience over the last 10 years I got asked to come in by the Vatican because they have the worst immune system in the world if they try as the pope is trying to update the church so we did a workshop there and one of the conversations we had was listen your your business model is about selling heaven and we're entering a longevity I actually said that yeah that's amazing well that's their business model right all the religions sell Heaven they gasp and cluster pearls they know this is what this you're selling hope and you're selling eternity Etc um as we have longevity extending our lifespan what happens to your business model if people aren't dying and that was a conversation that that yeah right so I think the the the broader for one of the things I'm fascinated by is the idea that every institution by which we run the world completely changes now over the next 10 to 15 to 20 years because it can't none of the institutions regulatory legal systems Health Care Systems intellectual properties broken education systems all change completely based on these exponential Technologies the implications of longevity and we have no feedback loop in those hmm what do you think happens when you die um I'm of the opinion that we um there's an energy life force in us that then transcends and takes on some other so I would fall into The Reincarnation conscious way you know I mean when you study the Tibetans they've learned how to do it in a conscious way because they actually choose where they're going to get reincarnated into and they have trackers they've they've laid down cookies yeah do you know this no this all sounds oh it's crazy so so do you know how they choose the Dalai Lama uh I know like the movie version like there's toys or whatever so they they give let's say there's five prospective kids that could be because they've exhibited certain character they give them this massive jar of beads and if they pick the right marble out of that massive jar that's one marble out of hands like a thousand in this jar okay okay is it like the only black marble I just can't imagine they're indistinguishable from each other literally that's and if they pick that out that's the entry point into the process then you look at the next set of tests and the final one they'll come down in like four kids that could be the one they'll write the name on a little [ __ ] of paper wrap it in four balls of dough they weigh them all to make sure they're the same they'll put in a bowl and they'll start swirling it around and when the same ball pops out like 10 times in a row which odds are should never happen that's the one and if you add it all up there's no way in hell probabilistically that you can ever find the next dilemics like you've gone through a 10 tests this is my curiosity genius and this is like just fascinating yeah this is just utterly fascinating so uh if you when you study them they I I've spent some time with some Tibetan priests and so on they and they said it used to take 14 lifetimes to reach Enlightenment but we've gotten better now now if you work really hard you can do it in one lifetime right uh and so you transcend that and frankly my belief is that you die you your energy of your soul whatever that is from a phenomenological perspective we don't quite understand it goes and rests elsewhere [Music] okay so is the perception I have that I have just infinite amounts of non-existing followed by somewhere around the age of five I start remembering things is that an illusion and I am on some I don't want to call it a loop but effectively a loop could be uh I mean look at look at the tree growing a leaf right at the in the fall the leaf falls off and in the spring you have a new Leaf is that a new Leaf is it a Reincarnation of the old Leaf you get it this is where Ray I think says the best when he talks about this stuff and stuff like he goes language is a really thin pipe to talk about Concepts as deep as this because you get stuck in the verbiage yes but that also feels like a way of letting us off the hook for not pursuing uh an argument which I get like we will reach the edges of what we're able to articulate yeah but um I do like coming to understand at least people's own internal logic so is to me uh a leaf another Leaf is like another bit of hair right let me tell you where I stand I having looked at the data long enough for me reincarnation is a real thing okay what data are you looking at um so there's a story I tell you uh This is Gonna so uh in uh about 20 30 years ago at the University of Virginia an elderly fellow died left behind a chunk of money for anybody that wanted to study reincarnation okay now I may have the details slightly wrong because I'm going to give you the gist you can look it up yourself um some young graduate student goes oh pot of funding I'll study it goes and creates a big um research database of there's a phenomena where some two-year-old suddenly knows who they were in a past life and can walk into the house where they lived and know that this was hidden behind the painting happens a lot in India where people are more accepting of this Etc the most extreme example of this was a kid born in the favelas in Rio having never been out of the Favela suddenly start speaking some weird language so if they think the kids gone mad taking to a psychiatrist psychiatrist goes doesn't exhibit Madness but this is I think he's speaking a different language take him to a linguist and after a bunch of research they find this kid is speaking a dialect of her make that hasn't been spoken for 2000 years and the kids never been outside the favelas of real so there's a bunch of phenomena like this the one that this guy focused on was this idea that's at the age of two or three some little child suddenly remembers things and knows things about that they couldn't possibly or not so he starts tracking this and putting this new big spreadsheet so I was I heard him speak at an event I said what what does it take to get into your database because it's pretty vague it could be somebody how do you tell if something and he said well it has to be something physical that's what do you mean he goes well if the young child thought they were somebody else in a previous life is there a scar or a birthmark or an allergy or a disfigurement that's the same and if one of those meets the criteria one of those is the same as the person that died then that I feel that's qualified enough to I'm like that's a pretty high bar um to have one of those four things present in in this how many entries are there in your database and the number blew my mind it's not something 3500. so this guy's 3500 fully researched cases where a two-year-old um uh said that oh that was me in the previous that was my life before and and had the one of those matching things that to me is a ridiculously significant statistically significant amount of data and it turns out that distance was fascinating distance was almost the child that was born was almost within four kilometers of the person who died that was interesting the second was that the time the age of the child was almost always the baby was born five months after the person died sort of something there's something around that period of time yeah and have you always been open to that like I I'm violently skeptical I'm but no I'm not no I'm not I mean I'm from India originally so I have an inherent acceptance but I was raised in a very diplomatic western family my dad was an engineer I was I did engineering for a while and then physics so I came across this later um but the data for me is fascinating and show me something that countervails that you know I I keep on telling Salim I would love to have an experience I can't explain I've never had a UFO sighting or anything that I can't with a scientific technological mind explain I've had hundreds including the episode 10 years ago we're building Singularity University and three years in the model has gone from zero to one it's working and I'm fright my wife and I got married the week of the launch of the the thing so I'm at Nasa 20 hours a day she's hardly seen me and he Peter and I were disagreeing a bit on strategy you wanted me to keep the faculty at Nasa and I thought we should take them out into the world and if you want to change the world we should get out there and Peter's like no let everybody come here it's easier to logistically manage Etc and after three years I'm kind of really burned out and we're trying to have a baby my voice like upset because we're never home so I said to Peter look I'm going to need a break and Etc so two days later Peter says okay we've had a board meeting we've replaced here I thought wow that was fast but okay now I'm free but and very friendly uh overall Legacy is now set so great my wife then gets pregnant um so I said to her listen we've had no alone time since we got married once the baby comes that's gone so let's take three months before I do whatever I do next and enjoy each other and then she said great but I don't want to be anywhere near NASA I can't explain the standing of my family and friends they think NASA like the Bahamas uh it's a big problem you pick the place so she researches for several weeks picks up Penthouse vacation rental in Santa Monica overlooking the ocean um and she's a yoga teacher so Santa Monica's Ground Zero for this so we move in put suitcases down I go out to get a coffee come back and she's standing with her hands on her hips she's very upset she's like what's wrong we picked the wrong place I'm like what do you mean she goes well I said look at this Vista you this is amazing she was come to the balcony to go see the house across the street right there where the bamboo trees I'm like yeah Peter's house in the whole of L.A like next door now if you tried to make that happen you could not make that happen right I call it karmic mischief and you know and I'm if you think about it almost every major thing in your life has happened because of a weird orthogonal experience yeah but just think of the thousands of things that you didn't notice understood actually happened as well this is selection bias I'm sorry maybe but Carl Carl Jung yes yep was very very clear that there's a there's a causal stream of reality that everybody can see and you can link experiences A to B to C of consequence and there was an entirely a causal stream of reality like wormholes with things are happening Etc and that we couldn't see and that was with those aliens to come and you know take me home but you've done some psychedelics I've had some I've had some great well listen yes but uh I I still in the normal universe that I inhabit there hasn't been I haven't seen anybody levitating or haven't seen something that is like that's miraculous you know a coincidence interesting miraculous no have you I have not no I take a I am very much uh um what do they call that we're materialist like it's all cause and effect the odds that our sense of um that I control my life is probably an illusion and yeah that just all makes sense to me like if you had a computer that could track every atom since the beginning of time that you'd be able to predict where we're going to be in 10 years and you'd be able to replay the universe all the way back to the big bang that just makes sense to me and that doesn't diminish my sense of awe in the slightest like I look at it and by the way I I asked the question if you knew with certainty that you were living in a simulation would it change anything I know and the answer is no a no B so you were talking about project Kaizen before we started rolling that's its premise is that this is a simulation and it doesn't matter it's still all the same it's great you know so if I could finish that story with this weird coincidence I got to a point about five seven years ago where I was having not this insane kind of coincidence used to happen but once a year in my life started happening quarterly and then it happened started happening every two weeks and I can barely process one in the next ridiculous concept is on me and I was freaking out because this is like really messing with things so I have a cousin who's done 40 Years of Taoist meditation in the woods Etc so I said to her she's my resident understanding the universe person so I said help me with this she's like well listen to me for a bitching as well duh you've told the universe you're ready for anything they'll give you everything I'm like wait what she's gonna have to come to an agreement with the energies in the universe to only give it to you when you're ready for it I'm like where's the manual for that so she coached me on this and you can do this you can do it's you know if you if you did it at the fully reductionist level it's creative visualization right you visualize what you want and Things Can Happen Etc um and there's a we all do that you do that that's what the mtps you you program yourself in your surroundings your subconscious to out for the outcomes you want and then those things happen but there's a but but those outcomes occur to a large degree because I'm outwardly communicating my math of transformative purpose I'm telling the world those people who gravitate to it are coming to me and they're bringing things to me that are in line with that MTP it's not like I'm just meditating on on in silence and the world is changing but what you're actually doing is you're programming reality or I'm programming how I deal with reality both right reality is happening and again a mindset is how I deal with opportunity or scarcity someone comes to me with something that someone would be scared of and I'm like excited about it and I go in a different course than the other person um so I didn't know you'd done psychedelics what was your response so you guys have both done it is yeah I went I went into a you know psychedelics not for Joy or pleasure but with uh with Shaman guiding and I have done Ayahuasca number of times I've done a combination of psilocybin and um and uh MDMA but for me it was my DMT Journeys that were the most significant have you done no I haven't done any uh I've micro dosed psilocybin to virtually no effect so the uh the DMT which is also called the toad or bufo uh uh dimethyltryptophan I think is it dimethyltryptamine tryptamine um was uh was extraordinarily compelling um and uh it is a dissolution of the ego um which is and a connection with the universe that lets you know that love is a pervasive force and we're all connected in that regard and that I had my most significant um visualization about when if you ask me the question uh what do you think happens after after we're alive after we die uh that was my that was it first of all it got rid of the fear of death 100 which is probably the most extraordinary because it you realize everything is connected everything is connected and we're just part of the universe and it's it's a transitory so I want you to imagine this is the visualization I had which gives me goosebumps still to this day uh I'm I'm coming out of my journey with in these in these DMT Journeys are very short uh you know 20 minutes thereabouts unless you're Salim because they last longer there uh but let me finish so I'm I'm seeing this this sea of energy just like a frothing sea of infinite energy a plane of energy in every direction and I see coming out of the Sea of energy to double helices and they come out of the energy and they're there and then they go back into the energy and that was it and it was the realization I can see it like it was yesterday it's a realization of this Infinity of of creation and energy and life emerges from it Consciousness emerges from it and then re-enters it I can you know listen this is my mind giving it meaning we are meaning making machines but so let me so you've had that you're just kind of rationalizing in your previous question that's fine but let me give you tell you why I got excited by this whole world 2012 we had a lecture at Singularity I think it was Chris De charm and he what he'd been doing was doing a whole bunch of clinical trials with people taking different dosages of MDMA psilocybin Etc and putting them through an fmri machine so in the 60s when Timothy Leary and all these guys were taking drugs they had no idea where it was chucking it down right but this now we know exactly that this dosage substance of substance a will do this to neural circuit B and know exactly the emphasis on how much of an impact it'll have Etc and I found that fascinating because now we have a feedback loop what got me interested in DMT feedback loop to what end well because now you can see what neural circuits are being Amplified or impacted and you can now play with but play with okay so I have to ask them so knowing how you're creating that state by manipulating certain neurons in your brain how how do you see an allergy or a scar I don't know that I I wish I did I don't but it's fascinating that that's there at the numbers that it's there if it happened three four times you go ah three four times thirty five hundred times I got I gotta start looking at that and that's that's just the sheer numbers compel you to look at it a little more deeply but so for me so let's look at what DMT does DMT what it does is suppress the parietal lobe which is where your sense of self-sits when you can take a dosage of it you suppress that parietal lobe and you are now free to explore the higher Realms of your Consciousness that you didn't have access to before so when DMT is going is that all that's happening is is are there any areas that are more active or is it literally just shutting off the sense of self unclear but it seems the primary function is it reduces the activity in the parietal lobe and then you start looking at other areas and now what's really interesting to me on top of that is that we've it turns out there's lots of little practices whirling dervishes when they do their Turkish spinning end up with a DMT release they now know that yeah she's naturally occurring in your brain it gets released twice in your life once it birthed once a death so when people have a near-death experience they see the white light thus DMT really see in the brain interesting so now they've found religious experience almost all religious experiences are essentially you work the physiology of the body to a point where you have a DMT release Tantra and Kundalini work results in that they take ground energy lift it through your body and you end up with a DMT I don't take the DMT Journey um lightly at all it's one of the most insightful and again I I experienced it with reverence uh and yeah and awe and um as a means to explore myself in the universe in in a different way and I'm very thankful for it hmm yeah I'm very intrigued I ask about this a lot and and by the way you know I I got to a point after it I said I'm just going to openly I don't plan to run for president and I don't care uh what anybody thinks about it it was critically important to me yeah it's beautiful you met Michael Johnson a couple of days ago yeah so one of the most fascinating things about him he's one of the most present people I've ever met and I said how do you maintain this like you have this incredible ability to let things go not worry about stuff things happen everything just passes through them and and it doesn't stick it's amazing he just kind of releases instantly I mean he couldn't answer and I kept wanting to pull it and he goes oh I've done a hero dose a few times I go hero dose so normal dose I guess is 100 milligrams of psilocybin hero doses when you do like five grams it's like a factory reset on your nervous system I'm like holy crap you've done that he goes I do it every year and and so all of cognitive biases that he may have built up Etc are constantly getting released and they're free operates in this unbelievably present form I think that's just amazing and I'm completely impressed by the younger generation micro dosing you know one of the conversations uh I've been having at home recently is is the human species um waking up right you've heard of these conversations Sam Harris and all I was going to ask you guys if you've heard him describe his heroic dose and and so when we talk about becoming conscious at a species level in the next uh foreseeable future one of the questions that um uh that Kristen asked was are we becoming conscious before AI becomes conscious so this is an interesting conversation that would be I mean it would be very interesting I don't know if I can imagine an entire societal level Awakening but certainly as humans continue to progress as we are able to share ideas so much faster in the same way that culture has stacked on the technological side if it stacks on the Insight side and well imagine having a brain computer interface connection to the cloud along with a billion other people and sharing one's thoughts I call this The Meta intelligence where we become conscious on a large level right you and I and Salim are all collections of 40 trillion human cells you're not a single life form you are 40 trillion human cells and then trillions of bacteria viral fungi and so forth but you operate as one right and so are we going to become conscious yet on another level to bring it back to exponential organizations a traditional 20th century organization we would think of as unconscious with trundling along trying to get profits Etc and an exos a Very conscious organization what makes it conscious MTP yes it's a massive purpose plus it's constantly sensing with a feedback loop it's constantly experimenting it's allowing its people to operate in a decentralized autonomous way to make decisions on their own it's like an amoeba moving around sensing the world and little by little evolving so there are I want to bring this back because I really want the community here to hear this and I want to use oh and use impact Theory as the example here so there are 10 attributes that make an exponential organization they have the uh the acronym scale and ideas and um uh if we could I just want to take off the ones that that you hit so let's begin staff on demand so demands we do a bit but I actually don't love that it was one of the things in your book I want to talk about but so okay staff on demand yes we do okay second Community yes massive for you right um third Ai and algorithm yes aggressively aggressively fourth leveraging other people's assets I don't know what you mean by that cloud computing yes you don't have computers servers in your closet that you're using we do have some of that but not nearly as much as we Leverage The Cloud the Prototype there is Airbnb the entire business model is tapping into other people's bedrooms making them available and the four the fifth one in scale is engagement gamification incentive prizes which is your whole thing right you were like a master of that so those are the five externalities and exos use one or more of them allows them to keep a very small resource footprint and then scale very quickly right Ted uses Community very effectively for example then there's five internal mechanisms that allow you to manage culture and drive the dashboard and the control framework of the organization the first is interfaces to those externalities so think about Uber's interface with its drivers or Apple's interface with this app store developers it's an automated API driven interface that allows you to programmatically manage the abundance on the outside and then add value to it the second one is dashboards and this is real-time business metrics to track what's happening left right and center and not as much as we should but for our funnels yes sure and then okr is for team performance and Team Management we found as them so those are dashboards the E is experimentation which is Lean Startup thinking constantly testing assumptions non-stop running of experiments and the a culture of risk taking inside the organization constantly testing the edges and seeing what works what doesn't work etc the a is autonomy decentralizing decision making and allowing people to self-select what they want to work on as much as possible which is one of the hardest things for a CEO or an entrepreneur to do is to say listen here's our mission our mission is 10 million viewers whatever it is doing this and this and this we want to give you the authority and autonomy to go and work on projects that are aligned with our MTP go Google does this a bit um the master of this I should tell this quick story there's a Chinese appliance manufacturer called hire h-a-i-e-r they make like 55 million fridges in ovens here Jesus yeah there's a huge company um and uh um 80 000 people operating in a classic pyramid form command and control hierarchical as heck CEO one day decides can't be my corporate goals with this structure blows it up turns 80 000 people into 2000 teams of about 40 people each each team has a p l Target each team elects their own leader and most insane each team decides to do whatever they want to do now you go to any business school in the world say I want to make 55 million fridges and that'll tell you you need a ton of centralized demand forecasting inventory managers supply chain turns out you don't these literally these 2000 teams work autonomously like a beehive every team is deciding what they how do they decide what teams to keep they don't they the teams decide on their own you can't get fired if you you can't if your team doesn't mean it's p l targets you have an issue and the way they meet their parental targets is they work on a product and the products are the revenues are pooled against that product so when they literally can't imagine this there's a whole book there's a whole book written on this it's an amazing case study what's the book called I'll get you the title the case study is higher um and when they want to vote on what when decide what features should we go in a new fridge they vote and 2000 teams that are constantly outwardly facing with vendor suppliers Partners customers that come up with a much better decision than some product strategy team hold up with Market forecasts and research groups right and so uh GE Appliances actually gave up and sold that whole division to hire because they couldn't compete because you can do so much more with the decentralized organization we're not quite ready for Dows but we will be over time and you're kind of building one in in this I'm not I'm violently not building a dow well think about what you're doing right with your metaverse environment anybody can come in self-provision and play in that environment they can play in that environment they're certainly trying to build things so that they can build in that environment but that is that's a platform play like I get platforms and so our fantasy would be on a long enough timeline where like the YouTube of video games that's right so people can come in and build not we we could go down a rabbit hole about how we're going to be different than Roblox but we have a vision but leveraging some of that but this is like I literally wrote before you started talking the thing I want to talk about is how you leverage autonomy so the way that we think about it at impact theory is I want people to be able to make decisions in their area like okay your function is art for instance I'm not going to come in and turn you into a pair of hands I want you to think for yourself you understand our objectives go do the art thing but we set the objectives as a company then the department sets their own objectives and then the individual works with their supervisor to set it yeah but this is not hey you're in a team of 40 and like I hope you meet your piano know like I can't fathom how you get to that I have to imagine that this is never going to be the standard it's non-trivial to implement but when you can Implement is very powerful let me give you two examples that bridge the Spectrum one is if you're an employee and you join Google as a new hire okay you're not placed on a team what they do is go you've got six months float around meet different teams work with them how do they decide to hire you you have to they're hiring they hire basically that's it they're super smart and we know we need python developers so hire the python developer now do you work on Gmail do you work on Google Maps Etc what you do is you float around as that developer or front-end person or designer whatever your skill set is and you float around you meet the different teams you see where you have chemistry you go I really love what they're doing on Google Maps team seems like me to go sure come and join us now if after six months you haven't found a team bigger conversation you probably don't fit there for some reason but if you found a team after choosing over six months all of a bunch of different options you're probably where you really really like being right so now off they go so that's one example of implementing this in the new hire model the full extent of autonomy I'll give you the example of Tangerine Bank in Canada which is used to be ING Direct so they operate on this fully autonomous basis they have no CEO no reporting Lines no management teams no middle management no meetings of any kind they literally operate on a beehive where each employee self-selects us to what they want to do okay now you're a regulated Bank Canadian banks are very regular right so what happens is when the marketing guy goes oh let's do an online promotion because he's self-selected wants to focus on that and they launch an online promotion everybody floods to the phone Banks and helps out getting phone calls when it's regulatory reporting time they all fled to the regulatory systems and fill out all the paperwork to fill out all the forms to show the Canadian government that they're viable the most amazing example I've seen of this is valve software out of Seattle that makes the steam platform but for people same ethos no CEO reporting lives so if I spot a bug in the software I grab three people we go fix the bug we disband every employee self-selects what they want to work on and it sounds completely like a joke but they get more Revenue per employee than Microsoft they make a fortune so it's very doable maybe you have to start it you have to start it with that principle in mind yeah it's like physics something a particle born above the speed of light can't go slower and below the speed you can't see the speed of light I think you have to this is found founding uh starting conditions for your company yeah this is I did I don't know what I find harder to believe reincarnation or that you can do this but look I I don't shut down emotionally I'm very open I just everything that I know with perhaps just my limited skill set that is a recipe for chaos or you have to hit a certain size like when I think about Google being able to do that there's no way that you can start like that I get how you can get so big you have so much Surplus money that you can let a person wander around for six months with no like real specific job or that you can hire somebody just oh you know Python and you're smart great you know valve software is about 400 people it's not that they're also the company when when you said uh we're doing a a case study on valve in the book I was like Oh you mean the company that couldn't get Half-Life three or two whichever it was out for 15 years I was like yeah I'm not surprised but then you said that they make more per employee so I was like ah [ __ ] yeah so it directed execution turns out to be non-trivial in these organizations it's like Dow governance right it's an oxymoron it's very hard yes right so um but in terms of resilience unbelievable because you cannot break that organization because everybody's self-selecting when there's a problem they naturally find the problem they go fix it I think you need to still you need to desire for that people need to actually have to hire you can't you know Tony Shea tried for three years to implement that into Zappos and it just failed you can't bring it into it this is why we say when you're an existing organization and you want to turn in Newton EXO don't go through the nightmare of trying to transform yourself put up create new axles on the edge and let those slowly become the new Gravity let me see the example of the company maybe it was the washing machine company or the fridge company but they literally were like uh we're firing everybody and then a third of hiring them left and they restarted with two-thirds and they did just fine uh Zappos did that and so did higher it was higher than you look in fact Zappos when Tony shade first suggests he voluntarily said who wants to move to this model and everybody was like yeah this is crazy we're not doing that so then you went we strongly suggest that you move to this model then finally he said if you don't move to that model you're fired and even then it failed very hard to implement into a legacy organization did we finish the attributes oh so autonomy and the final one of social Technologies um Asana slack Zoom chatter Yammer Etc it allows you to implement people together right we found we have really good evidence today the peer-to-peer collaboration is much more powerful than traditional top-down command and control thinking so what do you guys think about what Elon is doing at Twitter he recently was interviewed and he said it is immoral to work from home and I was like wow yeah we had this conversation yesterday about you know uh listen I miss having an office setting I do and I miss and I I recognize and realize that the intensity of the amount of work that gets done when a group is together is substantially higher than alone but you know the flip side of that is the geographic Arbitrage that I can get access to Talent that I might not otherwise get to move to Santa Monica yeah yeah I mean my CEO lives in the Bay Area my VP finances in Spain my head of communities in Cape Town we have a totally distributed organization and yes we're less efficient than if everybody was in one place but I can operate across multiple time zones seamlessly people are living where they want to live they're living with their families etc etc so I'm a Believer in the remote work side yeah I also think we're going to see a transition as uh as the next generation of metaverse systems come online you know if we're there will be a point where we are sitting in the metaverse and I feel like I'm here with you and having this conversation and hopefully the glassware becomes light enough and easy enough where it's it's very interactive the key heuristic I think when you think about Elon with Twitter Etc and people is do you trust them do you trust your people right and most corporations operate out of mistrust you're like checking things and you have to file a travel expense reports etc etc and the entire structure is set up to mistrust you and when we move to this new model of exos by default you tend to trust the teams to do what they're trying to do best you're trying to trust you trust Over Control right trust beats control is one of the key implications Jerry mikulski is one of our community members said this brilliantly he said um uh scarcity equals abundance minus Trust it's interesting for me it doesn't come down to trust I don't even want to have to think about the people on my team I want to play my position I want them to play theirs and I never want to have to think about it it really comes down to results and focus and like you need like this is going to be interesting saying to you guys but you need some variation of the immune system in that the immune system will detect cancer so yes it can say no to things that it shouldn't say no to but it can also stop the free writers and the the just reality is that you will get people using Game Theory to be like oh you can hide in this company and everybody can just do whatever the hell they want you will get people that then just become selfish and then other people look at that and resentment builds and so you get other people yeah how do you know there's there's a uh my I'm moving all of my companies onto something called the EOS the entrepreneurial operating system is informal it is it's a it's a it's so you can go look it up entrepreneurial operating system and um uh and what we do is we meet and it's a process of thinking and running your organization sort of like an operating system for a company and we have what's called a 10x meeting every week with the entire group we're reviewing our rocks our our action items uh our dashboards and everybody's got assigned specific actions and and uh and it's not possible to hide in that regard a few properly implement okrs you you really can't hide and yet you can give people a lot of autonomy and they can go do their thing but whether it's EOS or whatever the model is it brings it together so we have today very modern team and individual performance structures that allow us to handle that true you can hide in traditional organizations because there's 20 developers on some team and nobody knows really Who's the who the rock stars are HR never knows yeah one thing we've noticed with the particular indictment I would have is today's most big corporations are structured in a matrix structure products on the verticals and they have legal HR branding privacy Etc and Terry Semel when he was running Yahoo made the mistake of putting in a matrix structure into it and it's like that structure is great for kind of command and control but it's terrible for risk-taking and it's terrible for Speed because every time you try and do something you want to you have to clear all those levels so it's taking as close to a year to release some feature on Yahoo personals and Myspace was released and Facebook was the killer here where they came along and Zuckerberg said if you feel your code is ready take it live on the live side we'll give you access to the live side your code better be good because otherwise if you take the take us down you're fired but the developers got such a sense of empowerment and autonomy from that and and wow he trusts us to let us take our code lab they were rolling out features every week do they still do that I'm not sure if they still do that but that was what got them that was what blew Myspace away to Yahoo away at the time the early days of high risk taking for any entrepreneurial company is is amazing where we don't have a legal department yet when you don't have an HR department and over time power cruise to the horizontals because they have no incentive in saying yes and so when we coach CEOs we basically say take all those horizontal layers and every three four years just blow them up and reinvent them so tell me where can people follow along with you guys to learn the stuff in detail to get help executing we have built a community around this whole model called in the it sits at openexo.com and people can go there it's free to join we now have 24 000 Consultants entrepreneurs innovators in 140 countries that are using these models to apply them to come join us on the master class yeah either join us live on the six or get the master class in the book and the AI afterwards if you haven't already be sure to subscribe and until next time my friends be legendary take care peace AI is changing the world at an insane pace and if you want to learn all about it be sure to watch this episode with the Godfather of AI himself yahshua benjio are computers becoming conscious right now

Channel: Tom Bilyeu

Views: 347,125

Keywords: Tom Bilyeu, Impact Theory, ImpactTheory, TomBilyeu, Tom Bilyou, Theory Impact, talk show, interview, Peter Diamandis, Salim Ismail, Bold, The Future Is Faster Than You Think, ExO, tombilyeu, Conversations with Tom, Health Theory, Inside Quest, mindset, podcasts, how to be successful, entrepreneur, motivation, exponential organizations 2.0, industry disruption, AI, artificial intelligence, singularity

Id: zm0QVutAkYg

Length: 139min 56sec (8396 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 01 2023