The Best of The Oprah Show: Oprah Goes to Prison | Full Episode | OWN

[Music] welcome to the best of the Oprah show why would a seemingly ordinary husband and father become a violent killer and what are the signs today you're going to meet two women who were brutalized by their husbands men who at least on the surface appeared to be model citizens one husband was a former cub scout leader and the other was a church pastor so what happened behind closed doors I traveled to a North Carolina Maximum Security Prison to interview the pastor who killed his wife High School sweethearts Aaron and Naomi were married for 24 years and together they raised three children Naomi worked full-time as a nurse and Aaron was a devoted Church Pastor on January 26 2003 Aaron made this call to police B County 911 I got a call from my wife's work and she's not there yet she was supposed to be there at at 645 what's your name my name is Aaron I'm a a pastor he was the last person anybody would suspect of a heinous murder then on January 27th their tight-knit Community was stunned now long we got emergency over here there's somebody over on the back of a car all bloody with no clothes on are they still alive I don't know Naomi's dead body was found partially clothed in the back seat of her car she was only only a mile from her home crime experts believe she was beaten into unconsciousness with a marble rolling pen then driven to a deserted Road beaten again this time with a rock and then strangled with a seat belt and left for dead police believe she fought back until her last breath the day after her body was found their small town was devastated again but when the killer was revealed nobody could believe it Aaron their Minister confessed to the brutal murder of his wife he was sentenced to life in prison without parole and that's where I went looking for some [Music] answers Lanesboro Correctional Institution is a Maximum Security Prison near Charlotte North Carolina it's where Aaron will spend the rest of his life I went to see him to try to see how somebody who appeared to be so loving could do something so horrible the story of his wife Naomi's murder begins at 4:45 in the evening of Super Bowl Sunday 2003 she'd been napping before going to work for her nursing shift that night I've woke her up she's come downstairs uh and then she where the kids I said I let I let him go to the Super Bowl party and she just went off why you've got problems you want to be alone why do you want to be alone I I said it's not that I want to be alone let them have fun but she was not happy about that mhm she was very upset it escalated into I have got problems I guess it was and it was the first time I ever really talked back you know what I and at that point what was she saying to you I want to know that uh I was basically that I I uh was a miserable person that I have no reason to be depressed and I've got problems and uh she was right what else did she say that uh maybe I you know if maybe you shouldn't be alive is if that's what you want a struggle ensued we've struggled we fought and then we started fighting in and it never escalated to this point where I was fighting back but I was afraid the next thing I remember is I'm in jail because it didn't hit me till a few days after I was in jail while I was there and at that point I just laid and cried and asked God to forgive me well you going to have to do better than that for me okay you're going to have to do better than that because this is where you lose me this this is where you lose me you lose me with we're in the fight and now I don't remember anything I don't remember anything she's I mean I could get go into that she swung at me and and all I mean I I I I remember to a certain point you do not remember remember because you are accused of battering her I know with a marble rolling pen I know and then dragging her body in a comforter and placing it in the car I know and she then somehow after being battered with the rolling pen becomes conscious and you are accused and pled guilty I did okay to then hitting her with a rock and then strangling her with the seat belt yeah and I'm telling you and you're going to now sit here and tell me that you don't remember any of that absolutely not but his memory did seem intact two days after the murder in his confession Aaron told police that he and Naomi argued about finances that evening tell me what happened She chased me out of the kitchen she swung at me in the kitchen with the rolling pin and I'll be very honest at times I wish I would just put my hands down and let her hit me I ran mhm I ran upstairs she followed me had she hit you with the roll she was swinging at she was swinging the rolling pin at you okay I ran upstairs uh-huh she jumped on me in the bed she jumped on you we're fighting with it this is this is not I gained a little control I hit her she starts bleeding mhm I told her to stop your bleeding that just infuriated her who has the rolling pen at this point she did she still had it it was in her hand mm the next thing I know the next thing I saw was her line in bed bloody mhm you're telling me you're telling me Ain you do not remember taking the rolling pin and hitting her with the rolling pin in his confession Aaron told police that that he grabbed the rolling pen and struck Naomi twice because she was fighting back I remember nothing from that do you remember putting her body in a comforter and dragging it to the car do you remember that I I do not Things become dreamlike okay well tell me what dream the dreamlike part is I remember saying I've got to help her I tried to I've got to help her that's why you dragged her to the car yes I yes I I tried lifting her and I couldn't uhuh she was heavy uhhuh I knew I had to get her downstairs uhhuh it was two-story house okay that was how I got her in the car but if see I don't even that's dreamlike I can't even say okay I will even just right now go with the dream so what is the rest of the dream that is it the medical examiner's report confirmed how vicious the attack was there were contusions all around Naomi's face skull fractures and strangulation marks around her neck the autopsy found that even after the brutal beating with the rolling pin Naomi stayed alive until the final moment on the dirt road when Aaron strangled her with the seat belt see the reason why I'm not buying this is because you put her in the car you then clubbed her again with a rock you then strangled her I don't think and left her there in the car I canot not only that you pulled her pants down so it would look like somebody else had done it and I don't remember any of you don't remember any of it I I'm telling you the truth there is no excuse for what you did there is none I agree but all I'm saying to you is you're un willingness to go there and there may be reasons why you don't want to go there and I can accept that right if you tell me that what I really have a problem accepting is the selective Amnesia according to his police confession Aaron emptied Naomi's purse in the front seat and took off the white work gloves he'd been wearing he walked home washed the comforter and his clothes then did the dishes and put the rolling pin back in the cupboard let me ask you this did you kill your wife it's obvious I did okay and I'm the and you accept responsibility I accept responsibility but it's not for murdering her oh yes you accept full responsibility AC and you own that yes okay okay yes all right I'm not buying the selective Amnesia but thank you for the interview doesn't he look like the guy next door though yeah okay cuz we have this image of what murderers look like remember he was a pastor and had been married for 24 years 24 years coming up Naomi's brother speaks for the first time about his murdered sister and later stabbed over 50 times a wife survives her own husband's murderous Rampage their children did not so how does a seemingly ordinary husband and father become a brutal killer to find out what goes on inside the mind of a spouse killer I traveled to North Carolina to a prison there to interview Aaron a former Minister convicted of murdering Naomi his wife of 24 years Naomi not only left behind three children but her parents and seven siblings her brother is speaking out for the first time about Naomi murder out of seven kids Naomi was the youngest girl she was everybody's favorite she was just uh fun loving easy going always wanted to help people she absolutely loved her children Aaron had a lot of different jobs where he moved around just not any way that we would have known if there was anything going on because if we talked to Naomi she'd always say everything was doing fine we really didn't believe that he could do anything like this but we sure found out we were wrong he had a nickname for Naomi he called Naomi Scrapper so if they ever had to go toe-to-toe where they were going to be in a fist fight one-on-one Naoma would be able to kick his butt he never once apologized to us for brutally murdering Naomi my parents said that you don't expect to have your your children die it's like cutting your heart up you know it's it's it's it's a big emptiness my sister Betty Joy said s him a letter every Monday and all it says is why and then it's signed Naomi it it hurts that someone could do that to her especially someone who said he loves her and and I'll tell you being a minister he knows what God says about uh having your soul burn in hell or go to heaven and he's made a conscious decision to want his soul to burn in hell thank you Jim well what would cause Aaron to kill his wife of 24 years did he just snap on that Super Bowl Sunday well after hearing Aaron's disturbing account of what happened the night of the murder I had one question I do know this I do know that for every family who has been victim IED by something like this be it murder or somebody in their family is harmed they want to know why yeah I know why why can you offer any wise I I I'm not sure I can okay tell me this would you say you snapped I would have that's probably the best way to put it mhm now Aaron says he kept a secret he was not the man he appeared to be he was severely depressed he says I'd be down I I tell her I'm I feel empty I feel lonely I would call it my no my nagging loneliness and she didn't understand that she would say you were just at church and you were fine mhm but there was a face that I had to wear a face that you had to wear I was Pastor I couldn't uh I was helping people who were feeling like me I was helping their families I was a children's Pastor I mean you got to be up all the time when you're around kids you got you're putting on a a happy face yes and I would come home and it was like the only place I could relax deep down in my heart deep down in my chest I should say just loneliness emptiness I would try to explain that to Naomi and that's where our friction would become because she didn't understand that mhm I'll tell you what a psychologist told me mhm cuz I never knew this I said that depression is anger turned inward yes it is Aaron will spend the rest of his life in prison with no possibility of parole for killing his wife and here are his final thoughts on his horrible crime I have a lot of regrets um that she's not alive that she's not here to see her children grow I I regret that she couldn't see him graduate from college mhm I regret that my daughter starts driving and neither one of us are the ones that taught her to drive I regret that her family is in pain I don't understand it I'm telling you I don't understand it and that destroys me because was it's Daddy it's Dad Dad did this I can't that's hard that is there's not a day that I don't live in remorse there's not a day what do you wish that you had done differently I should have been way more persistent in getting and talking to someone I should have found somebody that I could say listen I am in deep trouble here I my mind is not right I'm I'm very depressed I'm very lonely I'm very hurt so if you had gone to somebody and had gotten help for your depression and had been able to deal with it in a professional clinical way and had gone for help would you be sitting here today I don't don't think so no absolutely not mhm well we've been hearing these stories more and more later Inside the Mind of a spouse killer an expert reveals the possible warning signs we'll be right back coming up he stabbed his wife 50 times and murdered their children now for the first time since surviving the unimaginable a grieving mother shares her story public if you're just tuning in you need to know that at least three women are murdered by the men in their lives every single day in this country how does an ordinary husband and father become a brutal killer do they just snap Karen Fox is a kindergarten teacher's aid her ex-husband was a cub scout leader High School tennis coach she says what happened to her is so unbelievable that it really is like watching a movie of someone else's life we begin her story with this 911 call placed to the debut police on February 17th 2003 go ahead police we had a gentleman with like blood on a shirt walking past us here that man would turn out to be Karen's husband that call came from the ambulance carrying Karen Walker's bleeding body just minutes before before the world as Karen knew it had come to a horrific end it began 13 years ago when Karen Fox married Michael Walker he was very romantic he lik do little things for me you know little cards or or flowers that was a huge attraction they had two beautiful children Jordan and Lindsay Lindsay loved school she loved to learn she loved soccer she had a very gentle soul Jordan he was just the needest just awesome he was very very affectionate Lindsay was very protective of Jordan and Jordan adored her the kids also adored their father and he doted on them he was a very involved father he'd play games and he'd color with them and watch TV together Karen's best friend Brenda says Michael was a good friend and neighbor Michael was very involved in the community he was a boy scout leader he was always easygo a lot of fun to be around although to those on the outside everything seemed fine Karen and Michael's Mar was falling apart soon she and the children moved out still Karen says she never felt threatened by her husband and he never lifted a finger against her he was never a violent person I was never ever in fear of of my safety but on a cold February night just a few months after the separation Karen waited for her children to return after spending the evening with their dad that Monday night was just like every other evening Karen heard her knock at the door open the door and it's Mike and I'm like what what are you doing here where are the kids and he walked right into into Jordan's room and so I followed him in there and um the light was off I take a step back and I'm like what's going on and as I took a step back he turns around and up came his hand with a knife and started stabbing at me and tried my best to fight back I was biting him and pulling his hair and trying to gouge his eyes out he was SL at my neck finally after stabbing his wife more than 50 times Michael stopped walked out of the room though Karen was weak and bleeding profusely she managed to crawl to the phone hello help me what's your address man 2013 number three what's going on there my my husband help me he what stab he's killing me ma'am ma'am help me help me Karen was taken to the hospital where doctors say she was stabbed so many times they stopped counting after number 59 while doctors raced against the clock to save Karen's life her mother Pat arrived at the hospital the sheriff was there and I looked at him and and I remember saying well where are the kids and that was the first anyone knew that there were children and I said where weren't they at the apartment detectives left the hospital to look for the children as Pat frantically called Karen's best friend Brenda I picked up the phone and instantly she said do you have the kids you could tell something was desperately wrong and I said no I don't have the kids why oh my God I said Michael's hurt Karen and I don't know if she's going to live I hung up the phone and I headed for the hospital by the time Brenda arrived at the hospital the police had returned with a catastrophic Discovery when they came [Music] they they wouldn't say anything until everybody sat down I remember Pat asking if they're okay and she just sh her head no just hours before Michael brutally attacked his wife he had suffocated his 9-year-old daughter Lindsay and strangled his 8-year-old son Jordan to death and I thinking what am I going to do what am I going to do I'm L Lindsay and Jordan what am I going to do doctors told the family not to tell Karen her children were dead they were afraid she would then stop fighting for her own life she opened her eyes and she locked on to me I knew what she wanted I I knew she wanted to know about the kids I just shook my head and I said yeah they're gone so authorities believe that Michael used a pillow to suffocate his daughter Lindsay and strangled his son Jordan with his bare hands Michael was arrested confessed and pled guilty and Karen is alive to talk about it we applaud you for being here really I I we can only imagine how hard this is I said in the beginning of the show here if you can survive this you can survive any thing definitely definitely and I hear do you have flashbacks about this every day oh definitely Ely my mind sits idle for too long I'm right back M to that night right back to that night mhm I know I've heard you you you told the producers that you can tell if it's going to be a good day or a bad day when you're brushing your teeth if I could brush my teeth and and not throw up it it was going to be a pretty good day pretty good day MH yeah but you had an indication even before your mother told you that the children were gone you had an indication because when he was stabbing you he said all he would say the whole time is you need to be with your children your children need you and so I knew I couldn't wrap my brain completely around it but he's stabbing me mhm he wants me to die and so that must mean my children are dead too mhm Karen says on her really bad day she finds herself wondering what her children went through on that horrible day tell us about that if I'm feeling a little low and my mind's un Idol for too long I picture myself in his apartment and how was it for them you know their fear and what was going through their mind and looking at their father yeah I I can't go there mhm I can understand have you spoken to him since that day no mhm no do you want to speak to him to ask him why no cuz I do not believe a word he has to say you don't no and there is no answer that could suffice for you no no no yeah coming up Karen's ex-husband the man who killed their two children and stabbed her over 50 times makes a stunning admission in court we'll hear what that [Music] is so how does a seemingly normal husband and father murder his own family Karen Fox was married to Michael for 10 years 10 years she thought she knew him before he killed their two children and stabbed her more than 50 times although Michael's own attorney argued that the murders were fueled by his mental illness Michael made this admission in court my illness is not to blame for this my medication is not to blame for this Karen is not to blame for any of this my family her family without work with work have no blame for what I did on 17th it was me it was my decision they are my hands Michael was sentenced to two consecutive life terms for killing his children and an additional 25 years for trying to kill his wife you were in the courtroom you heard that what did you think or feel when you heard that that it was just a show I didn't believe any of it mhm you didn't believe the tears not really but the fact that his lawyer had wanted him to use his mental illness His Manic depressiveness as an excuse and he chose not to did that make you feel better worse or nothing nothing nothing it didn't matter either way it went what kind of father was he he was a very good father he very active role you know from the time they were infants and Cub Scout leader the cub master okay and so had he lost his job was he not working what was going on he had lost his job but he had throughout the whole 10 years of marriage he had a hard time holding a job for any length of time so that wasn't anything new mhm and you you all separated after you found out that he was leading a secret life what kind of Secret Life in um that July of 2002 he had tried to commit suicide and left a suicide note at a um gamblers an his place and uh the lady there called and read the note over the phone to me and I knew nothing about his gambl addiction M and you know he didn't pay any of our our bills and it just didn't make any sense because if you don't pay your mortgage for 8 months shouldn't there be foreclosure going on and not paying the electric bill or the heat bill you know for 6 months why are our lights still on you know so I just didn't realize the extent of his lies at that point this is Karen's mother Pat Pat says this was a huge shock to her because Mike was such a good father correct yeah yes he was so looking back you've see no signs for him to harm the children I saw no signs did you have a gut feeling though that something might happen after the separation oh I definitely went into hyper overdrive once she moved out I I I knew I just knew that he was going to do something to Karen mhm I just never dreamed he would do anything to Lindsay and Jordan mhm he came back and I see the scars on your neck cuz he came back and tried to cut slash your throat because he was still in the house when you made the 911 call MH yeah yeah and how did you keep him from slitting your throat well when he came back in and found me on the phone he left and and came back in with a with a new knife cuz we had destroyed the one that um he originally used stabbing you yeah yeah and me trying to get it from him I knew that it was you know totally bent and so it wasn't working properly and then he came in and um started flashing at me again and I had a big sweatshirt on and I just grabbed you know the collar and I put it in my mouth so he'd have to you know cut through the the sweatshirt and it was a heavy one in the beginning you didn't feel any pain your body sort of takes over and you felt no pain it had to have been the adrenaline rush and that part of your brain that blocks out the pain but it didn't hurt mhm you know I'm grabbing at the knife and I can feel feel my skin just shredding and I can feel I can feel the knife going in and you know and it puncturing my right lung first I I could feel it but and you can smell the blood smell it and taste it it was it was just everywhere you know and but it it didn't hurt there was no pain at that point until he punctured a lung I heard his the very last blow he when the left lung punctured that one I did feel and that wow that was excruciating why have you chosen to speak publicly that's a hard question I never thought that I would mhm I thought that I would just keep it in but there so many people you you just read this more and more and it's a very lonely feeling you know I have a wonderful Community I just love my city but I'm alone you know there's no one that can really say I understand I know what you're going through and it's going to be okay MH and um if I could say that to another person that I understand I know what you're going through I actually mean it you know what I mean mhm and when you speak publicly do you think that in some way it honors the life of your children Lindsay in one way yeah just getting through each day honors Lindsay and Jordan coming up what Karen does every day to remember her children we'll be right [Music] back Karen Fox survived a brutal attack by her own husband he stabbed her over 50 times after killing their children this is Brenda Karen's best friend Brenda and Karen's Sons were also best friends when you uh heard that this is H that happened did you were you shocked surprised before I got to the hospital you had you just you don't believe it's going to be as bad as what it sounds like on the phone but were you like her mom did you have a good feeling at this when they separated cuz best friends know everything yeah and I had more of a feeling that he was maybe going to kidnap the kid kids because he knew that would hurt her is that he would he would take them away from her but not to this extreme and right after this happened you were worried that Karen might commit suicide were you I was I was because her whole life was her kids yeah uh would you mind reading what you said was this your victim statement impact statement impact statement that you read in the courtroom y can you read part of it here to us I was faced with two choices live or die I chose to live Michael succeeded in destroying my life however he underestimated the strength of my will and therefore failed at destroying me the road that is now ahead of me will be hard dark and long I know that I will have to fight harder than I did that fateful night but I know that with the love strength and support from my family and friends this wonderful community that I live in I will make it I will find a new normal have you been able to find a new normal not yet no you have a garden to remember your children by yeah yeah because you said at the beginning of that statement your life will never be the same so I think that's really important for everybody who's watching who's been through any kind of Devastation that your life will not be the same I love that last sentence that you have to find a new normal for yourself because I think so many times people go back and they try to make it the same they want it to be the way it was and it can never be never never be so you planted a garden right I have too hard of a time going to the cemetery mhm so right outside my sunp porch window um I have a little garden and I've just got things in there that represent Lindsay and Jordan MH so I spend many many hours in the mornings just looking well everybody watching right now Heart is Open to you and we wish you deep healing deep healing Coming Up Inside the Mind of a spouse who kills an exp reveals the hidden morning signs we'll be right back Dr Robbie Ludwig is a psychotherapist and Robbie has been researching spousal homicide for a new book called till death do us part love marriage in the mind of the killer spouse uh you say Michael's story sounds similar to what's been reported about Mark hacking how so right in the sense that they were both lying they were presenting themselves as they wanted to be instead of who they are and that they were failing and as long as they were not exposed and they could present the image that they were the good father good husband taking care of the house they could Soo themselves but as soon as that was confronted they lost face and became humiliated and responded to that by acting out in Rage and a murderous rage mhm and so when the discovery has occurred that's when you have trouble right okay but in this case case was it that you knew about the gambling I didn't know about the gambling until his suicide note mhm so it was after after after well it sounds like at the point that he came after you and your children all hope was lost so it became very clear to him that the two of you were not going to be together and in this situation the children became an extension of the mother and so there's an attack I'm going to get you by getting the kids can somebody just snap though can you just snap it can look like you're just snapping but there are always signs and contributing factors that push a person over the edge cu the truth of the matter is you don't snap until you get too so taunt that you have to and anyone can get there everybody has that point where they can become aggressive so it looks like they just snapped to us but it's been building and building and building and building and then if you look in hindsight you say oh now I see this sign he was a gambler oh he was lying or you know all the truth comes out and and you say oh my God why didn't I see it it's always easier to see it in retrospect yeah are there warning signs though there are if someone is depressed if they're unemployed having difficulty with finances if they're using illicit drugs if they're socially isolated and if there are firearms in the house those are or very severe warning signs and Al many times these husbands will warn their wife I'm going to kill you and they follow through with it and that's when you need to really use your instinct but he was never violent in any way correct never never never threatened you no never threatened you what is interesting in in the case of Aaron who I interviewed in North Carolina he was saying that often he would say to his wife I'm I'm depressed or he would sit in the sh shower and just cry he told me an incident of where he'd been in the shower and just crying and his wife came in and said what is the matter with you you know you have a wonderful life you you're a minister you your children are healthy we're doing okay what is the matter with you right what was so interesting in watching Aaron is that he was blaming everybody else and again these spousal Killers externalize the problem and don't take any responsibility for it mm you say that often times in these cases killing seems much easier than being caught in a lie right a person who's woven this web like in the hacking Cas you have this complete Web of Lies it's just one after the other after the other and the lie was more important than the truth yeah so so lying was his method of coping and when he couldn't do that anymore he went to the path of least resistance and we are drawn to follow what's pleasurable and sometimes what's pleasurable in the moment is illegal and murderous and that's what happened with Mark hacking statistics report that for every 100 men who kill their wives 75 women will kill their husbands Robbie says that when women kill it's very different than uh from men how so there's an overgeneralization for women who kill their husbands it's generally to get rid of them whereas husbands paradoxically kill to hold on to their spouses really yes what do you want to say though to to Karen to those people who are watching you today who will take strength from your strength because the fact that you can stand having withstood being stabbed over 50 times having to to come out of that and realize that your the two angels love of your life have uh your two children have been murdered you still get up in the morning you put your clothes on you brush your teeth you move forward I love what you said earlier about being here because you wanted people who've gone through it to know that they're not alone and what else would you like to say to them it doesn't have to be you know physical violence for the worst to happen mhm you know usually when when a a spouse would kill their a husband would kill his wife or or children there's usually a history of physical abuse that's the more common that really is not the case for you for me mhm so and I'm not the I can't be the only case no you know so there are other women who are in you know very detrimental relationships you know but there is no physical violence and so they well it's okay he's not hitting me well that that doesn't matter I thank you for being here oh thanks thank you thank you for watching the best of the Oprah show we'll see you next [Music] time [Music]

Channel: OWN

Views: 109,121

Keywords: Oprah, Oprah Winfrey, Oprah Winfrey Network YouTube, full episodes, Oprah Winfrey Show, The Best of The Oprah Show, Oprah Goes to Prison, The Best of The Oprah Show: Oprah Goes to Prison, Full Episode The Best of The Oprah Show, Oprah travels to maximum-security prison, Interview in prison The Best of The Oprah Show, Interview with former church pastor, former church pastor killed his wife, Full Episode

Id: ahGhutXb7Hs

Length: 40min 3sec (2403 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 29 2023