That's Debatable with Dr. Michael Brown | Gay Christian?

charity culture is shaming short answer is no and there will always be LGBT Christians a million different voices a million different opinions every day we're faced with a choice what narrative shaped the way that we live world of confusion let's talk truth does the god of the Bible exist is it biblical to be pro-choice welcome that's debatable with me Dr Michael Brown [Music] hey everyone welcome to that's debatable with me Dr Michael Brown where everything's debatable but there's only one truth on today's show we're going to be asking the question is Jesus Pro lgbtq you came here for debates so that's exactly what we're gonna do in order to do that let me introduce today's guest Brandon Robertson a graduate from Newton Bible Institute Reverend Brandon Robertson is an author and activist he works with political and social leaders to promote lgbtq rights around the world with over a hundred thirty two thousand followers on Tick Tock he's also a social media influencer where he uses his platform to State his case on LGBT inclusion in the church welcome Brandon thanks for coming on great to have you on the show it's so good to be here thanks for having me so what what made you take this invitation what brings you on the air with us today yeah well one obviously I believe that this is an important conversation for us to be having and uh you and I have had this conversation in different platforms before so I I like having you as a conversation partner all right well I appreciate same here absolutely so we're going to pose the question is Jesus Pro lgbtq we're going to have very very different viewpoints here so taking a quick break and then we'll be right back and we will debate the issue hey friends let me encourage you to take 30 seconds and head over to my website ask drbrown.org and sign up for our emails I'll tell you more about my personal story from LSD to PhD take about the three R's of our ministry Revival in the church moral and Cultural Revolution and Society redemption in Israel and then every week we'll let you know about latest articles latest videos episodes of the debate show so go to ask Dr Brown today and sign up for my week the email so I'll meet you there welcome back to that's debatable with me Dr Brown I'm joined by Reverend Brandon Robertson we're about to debate the question is Jesus Pro lgbtq so we're both going to have equal time we're going to start with opening statements and Brandon you're up first you'll have three minutes on the clock and when your three minutes is up you'll hear this sound all right Brandon your time starts now awesome again thanks for having me and the question that we're debating today is framed is Jesus Pro LGBT and at one level I think the question is kind of a funny question to ask because in my perspective LGBT isn't a political statement it's not an abstract idea those letters represent real people and so the question is is Jesus Pro people and I would say yes anyone who seeks to follow Jesus is welcomed to become his disciple in all of the Gospel accounts Jesus never turns away anyone seeking to follow him and since 2005 I've been seeking to follow Jesus Christ and there are millions of LGBT people around the world that are doing the same so in my perspective there's no debate here there is already LGBT Christians since the beginning of the church there have been LGBT Christians and there will always be LGBT Christians who belong to and serve and lead in the body of Christ so regardless of what is said here today this will remain true I will be a follower of Jesus I will continue to give my life to Christ and today I think Dr Brown you have the unenviable task of making a case for why Jesus isn't Pro LGBT or why LGBT people can't be Christians I think the argument is over because again I am a Christian I am openly gay in my perspective that's a settled matter I think it's also important to acknowledge upfront that Dr Brown and I locate our Authority in different places which makes this a much trickier conversation to have this is my theology but it's not the Theology of all LGBT Christians there are thousands of us who are evangelicals and charismatics Pentecostals Messianic Jews who hold almost the exact same view on everything Dr Brown believes except for the interpretation of six verses that seem to talk about homosexuality being LGBT is just one part of someone's identity it doesn't necessarily Define all other parts especially the faith One Believes In so I want to make three main points first that I don't believe there's a single verse in the Bible that clearly condemns homosexuality second I don't believe Jesus ever explicitly condemned LGBT people or our love but he does speak words that are in affirmation of the sexual and gender minorities of his day the eunuchs so in this sense I believe Dr Brown will be arguing from silence and I would claim to argue from the precedent set by Jesus and lastly I believe that God also reveals truths through science nature psychology reason and all of that overwhelmingly shows that homosexuality is natural and a normal part of God's expression in the world so it's based on these three points that I'm here to make the case that LGBT Christians are already Christians and a part of the body of Christ [Laughter] uh all right Brandon I appreciate that and I appreciate your heart of course Jesus is pro people which is why he dies for us Jesus is pro-jew pro-muslim pro-hindu but he tells us to follow him we must leave everything and follow him as a Jewish follower of Jesus I had a break with family traditions if someone's following him who's in adultery or Pride we have to repent of our sin and follow him Jesus did not practice affirmational inclusion when he spent time with the tax collectors who were corrupt and the prostitutes he didn't affirm them where they were rather he practiced transformational inclusion and Through Being With Jesus they were changed and Paul is quite explicit after speaking of homosexual practice men who have sex with men in First Corinthians 6 9 he says such were some of you Jesus loves us enough to change us Jesus loves us enough not to leave us where we are the entire testimony of scripture is God made men for women and women for men that that's why Adam and Eve become one because the two were one only the man and woman have the potential to reproduce and are biologically made in a complementary way every reference to homosexual practice in the Bible is decidedly negative in fact in the Old Testament it's in the same class as incest and adultery and even bestiality in terms of a sinful practice every reference to marriage and family is explicit husbands love your wives wise respect your husbands honor your father and mother this is explicit through scripture if you have a same-sex relationship it doesn't fit not only so Jesus is quite clear in Matthew 5 17 he says he didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill so he takes the moral statements of the Torah to a higher level for example adultery murder he takes them to a higher moral level the same with sexual Purity in Matthew 15 beginning in verse 19 Jesus said that every Act of sex outside of marriage poornaya in the plural defiles us and then in Matthew 19 4-6 Jesus very explicitly defines marriage from the beginning as the union of one man and one woman that is God's heart and it remains his heart it is what is best for Humanity and I know so many ex-gay ex-lesbian X by even ex-trans Christians I know people when they encountered God in this truth realize I cannot live the way I'm living what you're saying basically opens the door for thruples theoretically as long as people love each other for polyamorous relationships as long as they love each other and basically tells me that the Jesus of the Bible is not perfect that the Jesus of the Bible did not know what was in people's hearts because John 2 24 says he saw what was in our hearts and every human being and yet he never said gay is okay even with eunuchs he said all right some of you will be non-sexual and no marriage for life but you can be mine in the Kingdom God has a better way that's the love of Jesus all right we now get two minutes on the rebuttal side so Brandon back over to you for your two-minute rebuttal awesome well I hear your points I understand the perspective you're coming from I think what's true though is every reference particularly in the Hebrew Bible to what people say is homosexuality when looked at in its cultural context is clearly talking about idolatry and I really do believe that if you just look in Leviticus in each of the passages that talks about where the statement a man shall not lie with a man is with a woman for this abomination directly preceding that the context is the people of Israel are being called by God to not be like the Pagan Nations surrounding them and those nations were committed to idolatry and if anybody does a little bit of background study both in the Greco-Roman world and in the ancient Egyptian culture you'll find that people offered sexual sacrifices and these sexual sacrifices were often pederastic which would be modernly we would understand that as pedophilia and they were also just men and women who were priests and priestesses who would have sex as an offering to appease to goddess and the gods of these ancient Pagan cultures God was calling the people of Israel to separate themselves to be different from those cultures but those relationships the kind of sexuality being expressed there is not what's being expressed by LGBT people in the world today that was directly connected to idolatry I think the same is true for when Paul's talking in Romans 1 his whole argument is based on the Roman culture descends into idolatry and then these perverse sexual practices begin to happen and those practices are in interwoven into the idol worship of the Greek and the Roman gods and goddesses so I think we just need to understand that what the scripture is talking about is objectively distant then what I'm advocating for in the life that I live as an openly LGBT Christian who worships Jesus and not Idols or images of gods and goddesses into stone Brandon once again I appreciate your sincerity and the conversation we had before face to face was as gracious as as this so that's that's my heart I believe that's your heart but Jesus said not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my father you would thank God in this compassion with the whole Bible and verses explicitly condemning homosexual practice would reach out to gays through history and say hey I know you're there and it's actually fine to have a loving committed relationship Leviticus 18 22 is a blanket statement it says Leviticus 2013 that a man lying with a man is strictly forbidden it's detestable in God's sight if you want to say well there's a verse right next to it about idolatry well right before that is adultery right after that is bestiality or adultery and bestiality only wrong in the context of idol worship and point of fact in Romans 1 Paul talks about The Descent of the human race talks about sexual immorality talks about homosexual practice as contrary to God's design in nature with explicit reference back to to Genesis the first after if you compare the Septuagint Greek with Romans 1 you'll see this reference after reference that connects them and then Paul goes on to talk about murder hatred all types of sin lying are those only wrong in the context of idol worship it's interesting that in the Greco-Roman world we have examples of ideas that people were born gay or lesbian or boring to a certain sign we have examples of committed lifelong relationships or long-term relationships even quote gay marriage there are even Jewish Traditions that may have existed in Jesus day that say that one of the reasons that God destroyed the world in the days of Noah was because they were writing same-sex marriage contracts so it's not like no one ever saw this before unless you're telling me that gays back then were different that gays back then were not having loving relationships that gays back then we're not having committed relationships unless you're saying that homosexuality today is very different than it was in Bible days certainly the Bible authors experienced this and God by his Spirit inspired these truths all right so that means that our times for rebuttal are over we are going to take a quick break and then get to our rapid fire interaction so don't go anywhere we'll be right back hey friends I hope you appreciate the work we're doing we're willing to tackle the hot button questions and be the light and Rod and go places where very few are willing to go but we do it with your help I want to invite you to partner with our ministry go to my website now ask drbrown.org click on donate find out about becoming a monthly supporter every month we pour back into you with free resources online classes you can take all kinds of things to pour into you as you stand together with us friends together we are making a difference welcome back to that's debatable I'm Dr Brown joined by Reverend Brandon Robertson we debated the question is Jesus Pro lgbtq so we've had our opening statements our rebuttals this section of the debate we're going to go back and forth rapid fire with one minute segments followed by 30 second segments and then our close arguments so Brandon you are on the clock well so again I hear your points I respect where you're coming from I would say a couple things one homosexuality as it's referenced in the Bible is different than what we're talking about in modern same-sex relationships because again I will restate people can go look at their Bibles the context is always tied to idolatry there's not a single condemnation in the scripture that doesn't have idolatry or Pagan cultures tied to it and yes I think your point uh people didn't know about loving same-sexual relationships that did exist in the ancient world and if Jesus wanted to condemn that Jesus would have condemned that he never does he instead again back to the Unix these were widely accepted to be sexual and gender minorities of the first century and Jesus explicitly goes out of his way to say these can be welcomed into my kingdom I think that's a movement of Jesus towards inclusion it's not Jesus doubling down and condemning homosexuality in the same way he does so many other sins so again First Corinthians 6 9 is not specifically related to idolatry and it prohibits all kinds of other things drunkenness greed extortion adultery unless you're going to say those are wrong only in the context of adultery or only in the context of pagan idolatry that doesn't work as for the laws in Leviticus God was saying don't do what the pagans do the other nations live like this I don't want you to live like this and I'd be curious Brandon on what basis would you say that an incestuous relationship would be wrong let's say two gay brothers you know 29 27 years old that love each other and say they love Jesus why couldn't they be together I'd love if you would answer that for me as as for Jesus and his teaching is explicit he does say all sexual acts outside of marriage are sinful we know there's no question about the definition of marriage being male female at that time and as for eunuchs he's saying yeah you're welcome and you're not second class but there's no sex and there's no marriage so if you want to welcome people on that score fine be welcome into the kingdom so I would say when Jesus is talking about marriage he was asked a question about heterosexual marriage and he gave an answer about heterosexual marriage it's not fair to ask Jesus to address homosexual marriage or homosexual committed relationships when he's asked a question about heterosexuality which is what is going on in Matthew and so I often find that argument pretty problematic also First Corinthians 6 9 Philo his interpretation of the word arsenicoita you can read it in his book special laws he understands that this was talking about Temple prostitution he literally says that this word is describing the male prostitutes the very ones that Moses condemns in the law and so we have first century second century witnesses to the word that Paul is using saying this word isn't about loving consensual relationships it's about pagan idolatry again gay Christians we follow and seek to follow Jesus and yes we can disagree on this issue but we are not committing the sin of idolatry and it's not the same sin being talked about in Scripture What scripture speaks about is the sexual act Leviticus 18 22 is explicit A man lying with a man the way a man would lie with a woman that's detestable in God's sight it's contrary to the way he biologically designed us and contrary to his plan even of the organs for procreation it is a violation First Corinthians 6 9 check every major lexicon for hundreds of years classical a new testament with liberal Scholars as well universally agreeing that the words used there forbid homosexual practice you can get different nuances but they are not directly connected with idolatry that's why I could quote if I wanted to Gay and Lesbian Scholars you know them yourself gay and lesbian theologians to say yes Paul condemned all forms of homoeroticism when it comes to Jesus in marriage there was no debate about the meaning of marriage there was no gay activist movement in the first century homosexual practice in Judaism was explicitly condemned and even stronger terms than within the Bible that wasn't debatable but what about my question on incest you answer that so I think I think you're wrong right on the surface that there was no debate about uh what marriage was because you yourself acknowledged in the first century in the Greco-Roman World there were committed relationships that were happening Jesus knew about it he never addresses it when we're talking about all the other types of the sexual sins that are condemned in The Book of Leviticus most of them are sins that people in the modern world would not consider sins for instance we're told you shouldn't have sex with your wife who's menstruating well most Christians would not argue about that today most Christians would not consider that a terrible sin to do if you're in a married committed relationship with uh opposite sex partner when you're bringing up questions of incest or questions of like pedophilia those things are completely different categories no one is arguing that a non-consensual relationship is good or holy or that a relationship that we know scientifically is unhealthy which would be uh in the case of a brother and a brother having sex with one another that doesn't result in health our fullness right so so again what you have to do is throw out the authority of scripture that's the simple thing when all the laws against incest and scripture and yes there are gay activists who argue for consensual relationships with gay adults in the same family and brother and brother I've I've looked at the arguments there are even cases that have gone to court why can't we be together a brother or sister things like that even even heterosexually we have to say that incest is fundamentally wrong but but bottom line a relationship is never defined as being good based on Love Alone there there are parameters that God has established on what basis would you say that a throuple is wrong on what basis would you say that polyamory is wrong and again in the first century Jewish World there was no debate yes pagans practice certain things and yes pagans were in long-term committed gay relationships and yes pagans practice like Nero with a same-sex quote marriage but there is no debate in the Jewish world you should know that if you study the literature Jesus does not abolish the law he brings it to fulfillment I agree that Jesus comes to fulfill the law I agree that Jesus raises the ethical standards and he again to bring it back never addresses this conversation even though it was prevalent in his culture I think we just need to be clear that the scripture is not at all black and white clear on the SSU you're even acknowledging that there are Scholars on both sides with legitimate points of view and I think just we need to keep up posture of Grace as we engage on this within the church because it is disagreements here it is Grace that goes hand in hand with truth and that's what compels me to speak and which I've I've prayed on my knees with tears for people just like you I don't mean that in condescending way at all Brandon I mean it purely out of love there is no ambiguity in what the Bible says the scholarism whom I speak on either side they're not on either side saying that the Bible makes the case for homosexual practice there is not one positive example of homosexuality in the Bible and every reference is 100 negative and condemned I think at the end of the day yuna's argument well too I like the example of box chapter 10 when God opens up the Apostle Peter's eyes to see that Gentiles can be brought into the fold of God's saving work I think God is at work I can see thousands and thousands of LGBT Christians coming to Faith in droves and I think that that poses a big uh question mark for folks like you who are advocating that we who seek to follow Jesus shouldn't do it just because we disagree about sexual ethics on this one question I'm saying you have to love Jesus enough to say my sexual desires come second my romantic attractions come second I want Jesus more than anything the Gentiles that come to Faith they have to leave behind everything in life I have friends people that I know that because of coming to Faith have lost everything I know people who have been killed for their faith but they follow Jesus because Jesus is worth it all don't try to get Jesus to add in the things that give you pleasure or satisfy you say Jesus You're My All In All I would say that that's exactly what I'm seeking to do as a Christ follower who happens to be gay is I am denying myself Jesus never asks us to deny a fundamental part of our identity Jesus never asks for folks to deny their race or their gender Jesus is not asking uh heterosexuals to deny their heterosexuality and it's not a matter of pleasure it's a matter of God's created this identity and called it very good and therefore I believe I can Embrace who I am and continue to seek to follow Jesus in all aspects of my life what's interesting in the time you had you still did not quote one single verse where God said anything positive about homosexual practice and every verse as you know is decidedly negative whereas every verse referencing marriage and family is heterosexual when God created human beings he said that's very good then there was the fall and because of the fall all kinds of junk is in all of our Lives which is why we need to go to the Cross have a redeemer who free us and there are so many thousands of ex-gays don't deny their story all right as with all our debates uh we've got our opportunity now to State our final words we each get one minute on the clock so Brandon over to you your final summation [Music] I just want to leave everyone with three thoughts first regardless of what you believe you should get to know LGBT people as Dr Brown has done not just to convert them but simply to know us and to love us we're not stereotypes that you've heard we are people just like you with love life Faith and a desire to follow Jesus and do good in the world and at very least I hope that after this conversation you can see that the question of LGBT people and our relationships in scripture is not a settled matter there's tremendous biblical scholarship on both sides of this debate and I encourage you to study broadly and read broadly do what the scripture says study to show yourself approved lastly I would challenge us all to consider that one's perspective on sexuality or gender identity is not nor has ever been a matter of Orthodoxy no Creed or counsel of the Christian faith has ever said that the belief about sexuality and gender was essential to Salvation in the end gay straight cisgender transgender let's all seek to follow Jesus and have Grace for one another along the way so I I find myself in agreement with much of your closing statements so I'll agree yes get to know those who identify as lgbtq and look it's a family member it's a friend we're not just talking about issues we're talking about people from whom Jesus died all of us creating God's image all of us Fallen all of us loved by God Jesus is sent into the world to save us from our sins he transforms us even to our fundamental nature and really there's no debate in Scripture that nowhere does the bible affirm homosexual practice that nowhere in the Bible is there a positive statement made about a homosexual Union that everything presupposes husband wife male female because that's the way God set things up the word really is clear love says transformational inclusion get to know Jesus and when you get to know him he will transform you and then look at the fruit of where lgbtq called Christianity goes and that's a further proof you'll see a degeneration of morals not a raising of morals all right Brandon really from the heart I appreciate you coming on I'm so glad we could have this conversation we have to humanize we we both agree we must humanize so thanks so much for joining us really appreciate it thanks for having me it's always good to have a conversation with you well thank you so much for for joining us and I hope you appreciate it the issues that we tackle these are personal issues and I'm so glad you got to hear both sides of this debate that we had so so listen you can reach out to me on our Instagram account that's debatable so go over there connect follow us there if you have a question you'd like to post for me if there's a subject you'd like me to debate if you'd like to be on the show and think you could represent your position please let us know there for now I'm Dr Brown we'll see you next time [Music] oh [Music] are you struggling with your own faith do you have some questions that you're maybe even afraid to ask you don't know where to go my friend I've written a book just for you it's called has God failed you finding faith when you're not even sure God is real it's for you it's for loved ones and friends that have questions we ask the tough questions we tackle them together and we dig into the word and come up with edifying life-changing answers that could just be the difference between life and death for you check out has God failed you today thank you

Channel: Rev. Brandan Robertson

Views: 22,060

Keywords: lgbt, brandan robertson, gay, christian, spirituality, queer, christianity, gospel, jesus, liberal

Id: NfM2UcHeH4c

Length: 27min 56sec (1676 seconds)

Published: Sat Mar 25 2023