T cells, cancer and immunity

welcome to this video and uh an amazing team this morning we've got professors Robert Clancy and Angus Dalle who are both currently in Australia gentlemen uh thank you for coming you're most welcome good to be here I me now um the the uh the background of these gentlemen is well known but both are uh very senior um Physicians consultant Physicians professors of Medicine very long research history uh Professor Dow gich is currently an oncologist although he's done many different things throughout his life including being a flying doctor in Australia I believe yes I'm back here now though but not flying period of time and uh um professor clany of course is an immunologist I'd like to start really with a bit of background if we could on on te- cells now the these are T lymphocytes they're a type of white blood cell um May maybe just Professor Clans if you just start us off briefly uh on what a t- cell is and then maybe Professor dowl on on why this is so important the act that we want to encourage te- cell activity and take away things that suppress te- cell activity Professor clany okay well if you go way back in time um 100 years years ago in Immunology uh we we knew about antibodies we knew there was something in the the serum or the plasma of blood and we also knew that sometimes cells in the blood mediated a different type of immune protection and uh basically in the 50s 60s uh it was recognized that a particular type of cell uh which was a pretty boring looking cell it was just round with a big Lum of nucleus in the middle uh was was called a B cell and uh there are probably a lot of reasons why it was called a B cell but theoretically in textbooks it was because it made antibody uh and then uh an Australian called jaar Miller who was working in England uh found that if you took the thymus out a little baby mice they were unable to mediate this cell type of immunity so remember we got two types of immunity an antibody immunity and a cell immunity both aimed at resolving infections getting rid of cancer cells or things that were foreign uh and the cells that were derived from the thymus gland of these baby mice with great imagination immunologists called tea cells te forus and so we had cells and T now that was in 1963 uh I remember it well because I had taken a year off from medicine as a medical student to work on shamefully messenger RNA and sorry about that and then uh the te- cell progressively became an enigma initially because they couldn't work out what the receptor was how it bound to its antigen and then a whole lot of new things were found like antigen presenting cells the way in which the te- cell got activated and then they realized that not only could tea cells kill cancer cells or certain infected uh cells by by vir us or even bacteria but also they could do a lot of other things including regulate make the B cell make more antibody some of them made B cells make less antibod and so we had regulation T cells and the whole thing got completely out of hand and and so here we are today um looking at t- cells and B cells but uh in all sorts of Divisions uh Angus will tell you why tea cells are really important for people with cancer because uh they're so important in killing the uh um the cancer cells and I'm really fascinated to hear what Angus has to say about that uh I'm interested in Te cells because surprisingly they're the ones that mediate protection against Airway infections from bacteria to virus to co to flu virus whatever it's the te- cell so while I'm trying to get the te- cells in to make them work uh Angus is Keen to get the te- cells that are there to work better so I'll keep quiet now and Angus can take the story from there yeah I think on the te- cells that uh when we discovered how important it was for HIV the fact that HIV could enter one of the subsets of te- cells called Help lymphocytes through the CD4 as the receptor which I was very lucky to be in a position to be one of the first to describe and we thought that that was it it went into these cells and kill them and in trying to understand this we came up with the overall picture that actually the T cells are the conductor of the mological orchestra because they they talk to the B cells say we need more antibody here chat you know and the specific one they give the messages they have the memory and often and with certainly with the covid vaccines we had this terrible alarm oh the antibody response wains dies down after the vaccines we must boost it up I mean nothing nothing could show that the people who said this knew nothing about Immunology because that's what happens and the reason it happens is you should have programmed the T Cell so it's completely programmed so the minute it sees the agent again it sends a message to the B cells which are just sitting there sleeping the message and immediately it goes up whereas in a primary infection it would take several days before it could start to man the infection so that's why te- cells are very important they remember and they control the eological orchestra but it was very simple in the early days which you've done the history of very well B cells and T cells and then t- cells were uh regarded as difficult to understand so like everything they're split into two sorts the helper te cells with the memory and everything as I mentioned and then the cd8 that do the killing and once again the CD4 talks to the cd8 or it's way it evolves so it knows what it's going to kill and this is all part of what we call the Adaptive immune response because it's dealing in seeing specific things making specific antibody now my interest in tea cells has got much more basic because I'm very interested in the fact tea cells have a role very early on long before they have a chance to take photographs of the incoming uh antigen and work out what it is and what needs to be done there's much more basic tea cells and we call those natural killer cells and Gamma Delta cells I mean Gamma Delta refers purely to The receptors on the ordinary t cells they're called Alpha Beta so they just said these cells are different they don't have the same receptors but they arise earlier they are terribly important they're part of the Frontline Battalion the first first first line anything that is not uh normal they will start fluting down as it were and my own group has done a lot of work in these gamma te cells because we think that they're the most important ones in controlling can and a big overview in nature Medicine by a chat called Jean uh showed to everybody's amazement they had examined lots of data on humors and responses and showed the Gamma Delta T cells were the most important now I love this work because it confirms my impression that in dealing with uh both incoming Invaders viruses Etc and the te- cells this is much more front line so it's what I call it's non-specific um whereas it does the fighting before the more sophisticated te- cells have a chance to take the photographs program the computers and tell the B cells exactly what antibodies are required to Chuck out to neutralize whatever this is and then with regards to what I said with cancer it would appear that these front line t- cells I believe are actually far more important than the the antibodies uh the specificities for cancer but that's that's speculative for discussion so I I used to call these natural killer cells is that correct the large the larger lymphocytes yes I mean the the what I call the innate immune response so that means it's innate it doesn't need lots of instructions includes the natural killer and the Gamma Delta T cells they're they're very similar except they they use slightly different receptors and the natural killer is probably the most primitive of a lot and then you have your adaptive t- cell we've been talking about the gamma Deltas are somewhere in between with a more with a more primitive uh uh receptor recognition part of an evolutionary process perhaps but it's interesting that they seem to be more important than the cv8 cells in lot of experiments but in those cancers where the cd8 which is heavily formed and programmed against cancer antigens they are part of that evolutionary process so the body can see it Gus um so your when we look at modern chemother immune therapy for cancer um when you're neutralizing the blockers the cd1 or the um uh T C4s um um are they operating on your te- cells or the cd8 te- cells yeah when you you're talking about the antibodies the antibodies use to treat peoplec Target the checkpoint H like pdl1 and ct4 which is one what you're doing by that is basically taking the brakes off that response they're there but they're sleeping so when you bind this you're removing the negative feedback so the tea cells produce whatever these are cd8 te- cells they cd8 te cells and the and other tea cells because they can also produce antibody responses but it is it you're just removing the brakes the important Point here is that although they've been fantastic still with any one of these uh drugs less than half the people respond because the other half haven't had the priming that allows a good response or it's been inhibited by yet something something else yes so it's an antibody we give and this let's really want to make clear that this this sounds like a paradox you're giving an antibody for cancer so people say oh antibodies is very important for cancer but actually it's indirect the antibody is blocking the block The Brak so the tea cells can fly off and work because theyve being suppressed it's like they're being released from a cage it's rather like the checkpoint Inhibitors are unlocking the cage allowing all the tea cells to fly out and that's why they can be very good for treating cancers but they come with tremendous side effects because they're very non-specific and that that's why you get a lot of autoimmune disease with them as well so let me see if I've got this right so normally the tea cells would quite like to beat up the can to to destroy the cancer cells but they're inhibited from doing that because they have natural Inhibitors that prevent in the natural circumstance autoimmune disease but because this patient's got cancer you've decided it's appropriate to block that so you give antibodies that block the Inhibitors of those te- cells and leave the te- cells to become really quite aggressive tough guys that go around um eradicating the cancer I mean AB is absolutely indeed right but it actually also highlights something that's terribly important and that is the cancer has been part of a great uh Programming Network to suppress the immune response to stop those te- cells attacking it because in the very early days of cancer at odd mutation the te cell comes along sniffs it takes it out and uh then randomly you might get yet uh this occur in an area that's what we call immunologically immune defensive there's a lot of shields around it so the te- cell can't get in it and if you get the Next Mutation the tumor can start going the first thing it learns once it becomes completely independent of the growth regulatory factors it starts putting out factors that encourage suppression of the very in response which if you think about it it has to do because susceptible to immune response to the point where other people have suggested doing mathematical genetics Etc that we get cancers arise every single day of our lives and they're controlled by the tea cells and it is only when te- cells are are really suppressed that these cancers suddenly pop out particularly if they're driven by viruses and viruses controlled by the and of course the greatest example of that was when HIV came along HIV completely interfered with t- cell control it killed it literally killed the conductor of the imagical orchestra and so the next thing you know that the viruses that cause cancer sitting there like evv or human papala virus hey we've got no one controlling us hey let's go and so it it was these these uh tumors that popped up uh in HIV patients first so the EBV causes the lymphomas and then we found out that the HPV caused uh uh cancers in these patients and these cancers were first long before the others but as time has gone on more of the classical cancers became involved you've got to admire cancer in a way really haven't you I mean it's it's it's it's a bit like an alien invasion movie it's I mean it's horrible but you've got this um sort of mutated phenotype of cells that not only multiplies and and makes sure it has its own propagation its own regeneration it is so clever it can inhibit it can inhibit these absolutely brilliant immunological mechanisms of human and animal physiology it's just quite incredible but the other side of that story John if you look at biology in general uh you you you if you look at um parasites for example the the good a successful parasite is one that doesn't kill its host yes and and what you're finding in cancer is the cancer cells are unbelievably clever with an incredibly sophisticated network of positive and negatives and it controls it and but kills its toast uh so it's biologically stupid but it's logically and and um genetically incredibly clever yeah I mean basically what we have these set of people administering medicine these I was just going to say the the analogies just flood the mind Robert just names come to mind but we'll pass on that one Gus you're going to say something yes I I would I I was going to uh talk about the um you were talking about the parasite I mean the that's that's what cancer is it becomes parasite it's very clever it's Dynamic Evolution it it's evolving within the the body the way any other bug would be to see if it can out compete and you know survival of the fittest that's what it is but with cancer it can be survival of the fittest to the point where it kills its own Survival yeah whereas the uh other other bugs and things can grow and you you live with them and it is a real what they call Sy biosis uh there's a lot of evidence biosis and as the as people get older and certainly as we've found out with uh as you get older a lot of people with all the sophisticated analysis we have these days do as they get older when it's discovered they have all aches and pains they get a blood test done and they find hey they've got leukemia or the lympo actually lymphoma how long have you had it oh months probably two or three years caused trouble no because it's evolved for the first second stage as it were but the immune systems really capable of FY so you don't know it's there until you come to a period where you've got sudden suppression of your t-one response which uh there's many things as we discussed before can do that yeah you take prostate cancer where uh probably 90% of people in their 90s having a a you know if you look at their tissue after they're dead they'll have low gr prostate cancer and it's probably been there for 20 or 30 years true in fact in the Vietnam War uh there was reports that even the young people in their 30s 40s that many of them are autopsy had very early prostate cancer so it may well be you know it may take decades to evolve before it's actually causing any any problem it's being controlled and uh it's one of the the cancers that I believe is uh affected by your overall healthy immune status and we certainly know that uh vitamin D and anti-inflammatories play a big role in the control of prostate that's interesting yeah it's quite amazing really I mean I've I've seen patients in in theater for example and and the tumors are like just all over the place just masses of them and yet if the tea cells were activated against that is the immune system still capable theoretically of eradicating tumors that are all over the body if they were sufficiently activated against that the cancer cells yes providing those tumors are quite small volume it becomes a time when the tumor is just too big for the the desel Symmetry I've certainly seen multiple small volume Mets uh completely disappear with good immunotherapy but it's a very tall order if you're dealing with t tumors that are 6 8 10 cm as though uh if it's just the one and there's lots of small ones then removing the big one and going for the smaller ones is actually a reasonable strategy with right right so basically I think I'd like to uh have more active te- cells I mean I'm well into my 60s now what will my te- cell activity be like now will it be as good as it was when I was 25 no way P age I think 65 65 you drop what do we do about this is there any any practical approaches we can take to increase our t- cell activity now I I know you've both got answers to this question so who'd like to start well I was just going to have a par um a parallel comment to to guses on cancer cuz I'm interested interested in the environment not so much of the cancer cell but in the Airways where say a CO virus infects and there there's remarkable similarity it's always surprised me the similarity between the the challenge of a tea cell trying to get good responses against the virus there as it is in the cancer environment to get the te- cell to act on the the cancer cells and and it's interesting listening to Gus talk about the non-specific components of protection immune protection it's exactly the same you you you put in a specific cell but it's it's so quickly suppressed it's got to very quickly teach the anate immunity to actually continue the action it's given a term now it's called learned inate immunity and in fact you you you change the the nature of the white cells and the various cyto kindes so they become self-perpetuating and every now and again you have to give them a burst of good tea cells to get it going so you go from specific tea cells that you're putting into that environment stimulating a non-specific outcome which means that it's going to protect not just against the co but the flu in a non-specific way and I I love biology is you know very good at getting to Grassroots principles isn't it it is there is a very interesting similarity here and that is with the the virus going into the Airways um and infecting the Airways what happens uh I mean if if the uh first line defense in a immunity or your memory because you've seen it before wins and it all settles down and you just have a little cough and you get better in a few days that's fine but the the thing that causes us all concern and especially respiratory people in hospital is when the condition is really bad and that means that even if you got immune system you can't do anything about it because it's caused inflammation and this is very relevant for Co it's caused a dreadful inflammation which was completely ignored and misunderstood by the people in the front line because they ordered uh ventilators for the people with this respect difficulty in breathing they might as well have organized AK-47s for them because it actually killed them I me the ventilators was the biggest cause of that because it pushed the results of the inflation inflammation back into the lungs causing completely blockade so they couldn't breathe I mean it was like throttling them and they thought the people who ordered the ventilators that it was because the virus caused leakage and that you wanted to push the fluid back in so we were dealing with something more like cystic fibrosis and infl inflammation now here here's the important bit when you've got this uh inflammatory environment the tea cells can't get through they just bounce off it's a complete waste of time so the only thing that made a difference in that time is to give them steroids dexasone time honed way of treatment again the people who handled all this and I want them brought to be account for their incredible stupidity uh for this they organized a trial called recovery with six arms one of which was dexamethasone by doing that five of the arms were denied dexamethasone which as the trial went to great efforts to show that dexosome was the only one that was any use well we all knew that I mean anybody with half a brain who's ever been intensive care knows if you got chest inflammation you give them steroids it settles it down and then the immune system can work because it can actually see its targets yeah completely unethical doing clinical trials for things that we know exist because you have to have a placebo group who don't get the treatment yeah I would like word with the people who approved that trial because I think that it shows medical negligence on the grand scale yeah yeah yeah it really is quite quite incredible um what about practical ways of stimulating the t- cell response I know you both believe in what's called bacterial stimulation if you could just sort of briefly tell me the two approaches do your approaches agree maybe Professor D GLE first what's your approach well I was going to say Robert first I don't want to cause any fights well it is it is very clear and you know it must be appreciated that this comes after Decades of research and sudden realization and it was my interaction with Stanford and Rook you know John Stanford sadly no longer with us and Graham Rook who for years were looking to improve TB vaccines to get a better vcg and they realized that uh in the presence of certain microbacteria not BCG the outcome was much better and they did fantastic research but I don't think they've had enough credit for it and they found microbacteria and vaki was very useful but here was the real work here here was the real real business they found that they could make it much better than BCG by heat killing it this I believe is serendipitous because the same has been s with uh leria U which has been used as a stimulant and by accident there somebody gave a heat killed and found it was much better well it's the same with the the microbacteria V and it's the way it's prepared if you don't use the right buffer and the right pH then it's not nearly as good as stimulant so this is very important but when you stand back this this agent boosts first of all the NK cells and the gamma Deltas we spent the last few years in my group showing it's the best stimulator of gamma Deltas it's much better than the standard ones and so this is one of the reasons I believe it has been so useful in our cancer trial and it would have been very important to have used that and not the messenger RNA vaccines as the immune boosters for covid and I make no apologies for saying that because I said it right at the beginning and I was widely ignored on it now why is it so good it's because um joh um Stanford and Rook when they pushed this people saw that what they were describing it was pushing the immune response that would have been programmed when you were young and it just had had sort died down or it wasn't there properly enough and it got labeled in one big review which actually went on to a big TV program and they called it the dirt vaccine and I think that was a brilliant concept because the dirtier environment the better you program your immune system if you live in a clean sterile environment you never get that good immune response and uh if I may quote a wonderful unexpected result from Copenhagen from this the state uh Research Institute who've been working on BCG in Africa for years they found after 50 60 years of monitoring all these trials that the kids that had BCG as opposed to those that didn't in Africa which would have and they would have been exposed to many other dirty things that later in life they had a lower cardiovascular and cancer incidence so it really was a uh a stimulant that that that one study I mean I speculate all this and a lot of it it's right some of it might be wrong that study proved that stimulating with this dirt in early life actually had an improvement on non-specific indirect agents such as cardiovascular D Etc and it makes sense just to highlight it um with regards to dirty uh bugs it has been known for years that people in dirty environments don't get a lot of sophisticated conditions like hodkin disease or M scis later in life and when you go into detail analysis of people who who uh had several children the only the firstborn is likely to get these conditions because the firstborn will have the cleanest environment and by the time you have your second give up on that they just go too many running out crawling around in the dirt eating L and St and they are giving themselves a much better immune system than the Molly cuddled firstborn and all the statistics on the available facts are completely consistent consistent with that don't prove it but it the that concept of of priming of the anate immune system I believe is one of the most powerful important ones for long-term eological health so if there's been a defect of that that these he heat killed microbacterium products and give it a boost or reconstitute it and that's why I think they're so important it's almost like a fountain of youth isn't it it's giving me potentially the immune system back I had when I was 18 it it just sounds too incredible and biologically it makes sense because the way that you kill or attenuate these organisms is going to affect the the architecture of the molecules presumably we would call the epitopes and and if you have a particular uh preparation process that preserves the molecular Integrity of the epitopes they're still going to be as biologically active so you know to me it makes perfect sense and supported by the empiricism that you're talking about and presumably the authorities in in the UK are clamoring at your feet to authorize this vaccine so that I can get it are they I wish they were I wish they were I mean we've we we tried to get them to prove it for pancreatic cancer on the the in 2016 and uh I mean the data was incredible they want a bigger study you only do bigger studies when there is doubt there was no doubt this a how Sy and you only do it to establish uh the benefit risk safety ratio now this agent has been given to thousands of people in TB studies hund and I've given it to hundreds of people with cancer there's never been an SAE serious adverse event three or four ever ever recorded this didn't seem to bother them with the covid vaccines where they were completely ignored all safety issues so now you know the frustration we have something trial yeah they had a two Monon trial with the the co yeah well I I won't go into the details where when it was obvious there were some nasty side effects it was decided to unblind it and so on the grounds of ethics and then freeze the results for 70 years 75 years 75 years but they they tried to unblind it so that the people who were on the PBO could also get the vaccine because it's unethical for them not to actually I believe it was so that the side effect profile would be comparable to both I really do believe that looking at all the raw data yeah unblinding the tri just completely removed any comparison because both groups became the same both groups had the active treatment it just outrageous thing to do and I mean it sounds to me like there's a there's there's a simple treatment it's just a few injections it's not really a vacine it's just these attenuated or dead organisms sorry sorry I I just love the fact that you CAU on and said it's not really a vaccine it's an immune modulator immune restora it's not a vaccine against any one thing so that I'm so grateful you made that because it's so important for people understand there's a big difference between an immune restoring restore the immune system vaccine basically wants a single response against a single antigen or a single bug like flu and we don't want to get this a Bad Name by calling it a vaccine yeah so so so it's absolutely not a vaccine it's it's a bacterial stimulation that that is restoring my immune system to what it was when I was young and it's acting against viruses bacteria uh cancers all these things um and I'm not allowed it and I just find that completely outrageous because if the medicines and healthc care products regulatory Authority which I seem to recall is 86% funded by uh by industry big if that allowed it then you you you you you could prescribe that to me compassionately because it would be a registered drug and preparation and we would be allowed to use it's just outrageous I agree with you now it's interesting what I'm trying to do my group over the years is to also stimulate TS but to make them move to where they're needed and we use inactivated bacteria uh to to do this just as Gus does but we have found that if you heat kill them they're not nearly as good as if you use formalin now what formalin does is it brings them together so we have little Aggregates and you can do special electron microscope pictures and you see all these little clumps of um and they're taken up by the factory that's going to make the te- cells that we want in the wall of the up little tiny lymphoid Aggregates that are called P patches now they if you have heat killed they don't get taken up so well so it's quite interesting when you're looking at a slight different outcome you have to really do the science and the research to work out the best way for that particular outcome and what we've found is that 25% of people don't really deliver the tea cells to the lung where they're needed very efficiently and by stimulating the production of them in the factory which is these P patches little tiny lumps of lymphoid tissue in the wall of the small bell then uh you you we uh treat them with formalin to kill them and by killing them with the formaline we Aggregate and they're taken up much more efficiently into the past patch so we're we're both aiming to get te- cells activated where we want them but we use different ways of doing it yes there's similarities and differences there because the the heat kill microbacteria still have to be uh processed and presented with aate uh uh actually without which it won't do it anything so it it's it's not that simple so basically in a way you know we're we're doing the same things starting from different places but converging on a very similar outcome I wonder if we can move on to something I want to hear Gus talk about because we've got him here in Sydney uh Gus to me has been the the the the light in a a very murky tunnel uh identifying which other people don't well they're now catching on to it and it's going on everywhere but Gus would you like to just tell me and and John per knows a lot about this um what your current thoughts are about post vaccine covid vaccine and cancer uh development because it's such an incredible people are talking about turbo Cancers and there's quite a lot of anxiety about this at the moment it has to be said what's your thoughts at the moment well I first uh highlighted the fact that in my clinic I saw these melanoma patients lab for years uh suddenly relapsed some of them mild but some of them really quite viciously and they had no I couldn't get anything good explanation out them other than they had all had a covid vaccine booster which I said is completely booster booster the booster they no problem with the first and second it was the booster and the booster is completely unnecessary I mean basically in vaccinology if you need a booster there's a great reason to be very cynical that the vaccine doesn't work exactly but the second thing is the people who said we needed a booster I think were Collective morons who understood no mology because their rationale was the antibody Titus were falling they were always going to fall if they don't if they were not falling you probably got a multiple Myoma with a clone producing it because it won't and the blood would become slush with all the antigenic challenge we've had over our entire lifetimes but but they were falling because the suppressor cells were getting more boosted by the vaccine and so you're turning off the immunity and the the British data showed this first I think I think it was week 21 or something in 20 21 or 22 uh and it showed that um after the booster the after the booster if you just watch for two months the antibody levels went down not just of the uh uh the spike protein that was in the vaccine but also the nuclear capsid which is other parts of the virus so you were getting this bystander immune depression and I I wonder how much that was related because you only got it after the third one yes and I mean there was a very good paper showing that the T Cell response was completely eliminated in 20% of cancer patients after the booster they called it in a very accurately t- cell exhaustion yeah you know basically what are they flogging me to do this for I've had enough I've done my job they just flogged them to death and the mean my big issue about this was this was a very dynamic multi- changing variant virus by the time you'd got even the first vaccine out there it was no of very visible use because the virus have changed and disappeared and the you know one of the papers I wrote with my colleagues right at the beginning of this is look at the history of Corona viruses no vaccines ever ever work the reason being is by the time you get a vaccine to induce a good enough immune response to it the virus is mutated and the next one yeah this is actually anti-h helpful it's not even helpful that the next one will be similar so therefore it's partially Prim no it locks the immune response into a totally focused called antigenic Sy that the the body is never going to see a minor variant of that it will just make the same again so it will uh and the bus is gone the bus is gone the bus is Way Gone and so you've induced a sort of Chaos in immune system fighting things that are not there and therefore they're not fighting things that were that are there that they were doing very well under control so that was the first thing the second thing that we had and some very good papers came out showing that the IGG subtypes they went from one and three after the booster to four now one and three antibodies attack viruses kill things four is what you want to induce if you've had a transplant so you toize the immune system say by the way we've got a new chap here don't eject him so switch off and just you know learn to live with him which is exactly what happens when an allergist comes along and and and give for the pollen the the spirit trct to the pollen the same way it does a virus yes uh and you say you inject inject inject three or four or five times and up goes the igg4 and down goes the response to the uh to the pollen yeah it's a fascinating we got us together because the these these are wonderful complimentary analogies I mean is this really is unbelievable well let me ask you what happens when you desensitize someone does that change cancer in people with Cancers if you're you know immunizing people against the Ry grass pollin and you're getting the igg4 going up and and you're turning off the immune response to allergens does that affect the cancer has anyone ever looked at that nobody's ever looked at that uh and I'm not I'm unaware of it uh but I B it does uh it may well do but it's obviously not a big enough uh issue the way we' found with they doing it in much much younger people they do it in much younger people well we don't know about that whether and the irony here is if you allow natural immunity say to a covid virus or any other virus but if you allow natural immunity to a CO virus you're going to get a polyclonal response you're going to get I don't know maybe 2025 uh components of the co virus that the immune system recognizes therefore when the virus does change and mutate there'll be some of the components from the old virus that are still there because you're looking you're looking at many different epitopes whereas the the vaccine is only looking at one or two epitopes it just seems even obvious from a from a basic biological point of view again absolutely there are papers out there now which have been allowed to be published like it was suppressed by this this whole Madness they pay the $10,000 yeah they they basically show that the innate immune response I.E of people who've been exposed to the virus that immune response is far better than any vaccination and that it can be just a T Cell response and I'm one of these people I have got a superb response against R2 I've never been vacinated and I've had never had an antibody never no antibodies whatsoever and there lovely pay was showing that actually when you looked early on in the pandemic there were lots of people who had Tel responses to it they had clearly seen it bashed it off they didn't even know they had it now those people if they did get infected and it's important to point out that these people had no antibodies just the te- C but if they did get infected there's another group of researchers that published papers showing that these people when they did get infected they had rapid te- cell response and fantastic IGG specific responses against the uh vaccine and they were very unlikely to uh progress and get ill and so whereas the vaccine basically focuses on uh uh just specific bits and because it was the spike protein they missed the nuclear protein which certainly in our work with HIV that was important because it's totally constant if you target that it's the same in all the viruses the spike and the envelope constantly change because that's what they're there for they're basically decoys they're Shields so the immune system attacked them and then they they change their number plate as it were and the getaway car so they escape the police looking for a certain number plate and it's a very interesting analogy which I think it's very useful just seems totally bizarre that they pick the part of the virus that changes most frequently to make the vaccine against I mean it just makes when I pointed out that this this was Madness and that we'd already show with HIV four epitopes have been far better than 3,000 epitope in the vaccines which fouchy and everybody P which didn't work the foures are the best in the best in the data they just need a little bit further work and you've got a fantastic vaccine nobody was interested in that but we said the same thing for covid the covid has the core epitopes uh are shared amongst all of them and if they mutate there's no virus they're they're absolutely vital to the good point so you target the Achilles heel you don't bother shooting guns all over the place and hopeing gets for someone who really doesn't understand the biology it's it's so simple they they see the virus like a um one of these um um um explosive things you put in the the ocean with little spikes out of it waiting for the ship to come M the mine oh the the sea mines yeah mines um and it's uh the actions in the inside it's and if you change things there then it doesn't work no very very good it really is it really is quite bizarre that all these really you would imagine clever people make such a fundamental mistake it seems incredible go how much of the fact that basically you didn't get antibodies to the virus that means you'd fought it off W with a minimal response really how much of that do you think is the fact that you nobly experimented on yourself with your microbacterial bacterial stimulation in the past do you think that's boosted your immune system oh without doubt very much so and the vitamin D because that don't forget vitamind d because it's the one thing that everybody can do without uh getting their for the government to approve and it is unbel until they get onto it and then it'll be banned well well they they tried they tried to this or whatever they call um vitamin D uh they actively tried to get stop people thinking it might be useful in covid Matt hanok did it in Parliament didn't they stood up and said Vin yes just well he he was obviously I mean we the best thing that could be said about Matt and H Matt hanock is I hope he doesn't survive ever again anything ever again he was the most malignant politician and the worst person in the world to be in that job at that time but he was appointed by Boris Johnson he was prime minister he has to own this m quite incredible so um it really is if this if this microbacterial stimulation becomes available and know you inject it I would certainly be well and truly up for that because it's going to give me less infections it's going to give me less bacterial infections it's going to reduce my chances of cancer and yet I'm not allowed it I just find that completely completely outrageous and and again with Robert's preparation the for the formalin preparation doesn't really surprise me because of course the difference is that Robert's preparation is going through the gastrointestinal tract so it's not at all surprising that there would be uh differences in the preparation but I would be well up for that as well because why not promote your mu coal immunity yeah well let me just tell you that I I was uh surprised to see that microbacteria vaki has been used in a TV trial where it was given orally uh because John Stanford was convinced that it didn't need to be injected it could be given orally because of the payer patch is exactly the same thing you're talking about and uh you know there are quite a few preparations out there that have microbacteria V in orep don't they still in Brazil give oral vcg to young babies I believe they do and and it's got good evidence that prevents menitis and uh a milary TV yes so for for prevention and stimulation the oral route is is very good I feel that the remember my work's been on people who broken down because they physically got cancer in front of me and that's what I'm do so getting injected and here is very important because just the difference between vaccine and an immune stimulator immune modulator it is very important it has to be given iner where you form a BLB and that means that you then get myoid derived dendritic cells activated going back and forth if you give it subcutaneously does not have any benefit whatsoever or if it is it's mild and it's delayed to when you it's too late that be course it's disseminated PR widely yes I think so and I can assure you a randomized trial has been done on this without any ethical input it's being done by nurses who in spite of training still don't know the difference between intradermal and subcut and they complained that this person hasn't had the uh the mark which you can tell uh weeks later if you give it intradermally you know because it has the mark AA and the thing and then I watched someone who said that this patient doesn't is energic they don't make any reaction at all said let's see how you do it they put it in subcutaneously on the they had no concept of intradermal injection no no I mean basically we don't give it there's no preparations we give intradermally it's all either intravenous intramuscular or subcutaneous there are no teist with brats and mice if you're giving adant and things you give it intradermally exactly yeah I had an appreciated that so so it's it's an intradermal injection so it's very very superficial prep preparation now um obviously um we we could talk for days but there is one thing I'd like to get your both your views on really um during the recent few years some products have been promoted some products have been uh demig and and one that's perhaps been demig and attacked blatantly more more than most is itin um Ju Just a little bit about your views on Ivon are you finding it useful Robert at the moment um actually I I think hydroxy chloric one which came out earlier uh was beaten around far more uh anything that put its head up and and looked as though it was working at the time was going to get beaten because um the whole scenario for the magic vaccine that was coming uh required there to be no alternate treatments and so the shameful thing that existed at the time csed with hydroxy chloroquin then icton both of which are highly effective treatments um they were banned in this country G you wouldn't believe it in Queensland where I'm going with a bulletproof vest on the weekend to visit my son uh in Queensland if you prescribed hydroxy chloroquin for Co a drug which you and I have used hundreds of thousands of times um you could be jailed jailed not just kicked out of medical profession but jailed um the answer to your question on Iva meon is a breakthrough occurred uh literally in the last few months when uh David shim in in the states put together a lot of really exciting good science and answered a question that people have shown up against I well you know it acts very late all these studies on the assemblage of virus and whatever and what David showed was following a study that that I had a little bit to do with um there were three studies showing that if you give iaon the low oxygen saturation which was present in people with mild to Mo to moderate uh disease would go back to normal in 24 hours it made no sense at all to to cut a long story very short what Iva mam was doing was blocking the effect of the spike protein on on the virus aguena bringing the red cells together clogging them up in the small vessels in the lung so that the oxygen couldn't get saturating the hemoglobin in the Red Cell uh so Ian had this dramatic effect now the overwhelming data on something over a 100 studies now on iaon show it is highly effective at reducing the intensity of disease uh reducing admission to hospital reducing death and also reducing transmission of infection there's a 30% less Long Co following people who are treated with icin so the database is overwhelming although that sadly is so irrelevant uh I talk to doctors all the time and I talk to people who I know who we have a mutual respect for our our medical skill sets they don't even want to discuss the possibility that hydroxychloroquine which is got a very bad name in this country uh and icton which has got an equally Bad Name can possibly have an effect when we're paying over ,000 a course for two antiviral drugs that don't work and they very tox and they're toxic they're far too toxic they create mutations which can transmit yeah they cause they Cause the mutations to make the whole epidemic pandemic worse yeah my RIS my case Yeah well yeah absolutely um who was that Robert David who chime shime yes he how you spell it um s c h e i m David wants to talk to you so yeah definitely of both of you yeah yeah just before we finish we're probably we've got 155 minutes now time goes so quick um you hear a lot about iction and cancer is it all hot air or is there some potential trials that could be done here first of all I want to totally agree with Robert that the uh iin but um the hydroxy chloroquin has been used mically for years any rate but the Iva matin is uh really an incredible drug and it was obvious that this this was useful I my personal things I had uh people I knew who were really really ill and I was asked should we try some icting and I said absolutely if they they've got nothing else try it and I had a couple of cases where it there was they were better within 48 hours after unbelievable inflammation now it was working and we cannot go on here without mentioning Pier Cy I mean he absolutely defend he basically undeclared war and IA metin and that under deair war and I of atin was that was orchestrated and conducted by that's the book that's it uh by by Anthony fouchy who denigrated it we called it hyw you mustn't take it it it worked now why did he do that because he was clearing the ground for the vaccines I believe this is a a crime against humanity what he did this is a very simple drug no side effects it was curing and we knew that because in the sways of the subcontinent where millions of people take IA acting to clear their flukes and you know it let's not forget this drug was given a Nobel Prize it's so good for flukes and things like that because it prevents millions of people from getting blind so let's vitamin D it's got a zero toxicity and a fantastic pass but it was deed degenerated that she wanted it to have a negative study at a dose that was so toxic in patients who were were pre funeral in order to De it when doctor Doctor Who did use it was fining fantastic and like you're saying Health authorities de I I gave people icin uh when they needed it and I was just horrified what they had to pay for it because the Govern government wouldn't do it yet this is a drug you can get for a dollar a course in India well I can I can tell you now there's some very interesting data uh which shows that to save a life with iaon costs $25 which is Us dolls to Save a Life with Pax l or M P the specific antivirals I think it's a couple of $1,000 and then I think they're cheating um the I don't think it saves too many Liv but it's in Australia now it is quite legal to prescribe uh icton even though it's not supported with any support from the government but you can now get the formulating Chemists in Australia we will make it for 60 cents for a 12 mgram capsule that is fantastic which is fantastic news 60 string cents 60 yeah and they're nothing yeah that's 30 English pens G is stay here in Australia because it's so cheap yeah oh yeah if only I want to answer the other party your question which please I just say I interviewed PA Cory in 2020 and the video was banned really yeah yeah oh this this this is overwhelming Global fascism on a scale all Tremor our shoes about this this is fascism which has spread out of control and we must do can stop this ever happening again going back to the Ia met cancer when I've looked at this very carefully you know so it's something if FY says to me it's bad and it's dangerous I go and do the research and I find as usual it's completely the opposite I mean FY should have been deated and knocked off his position decades ago uh and I'm and ran Paul agrees with me he want in in jail for dying to Congress crimes against humanity and I totally agree but going back to I we started looking at it and you know I did a lot of work in thide doing the analoges and we developed lenol linomide pomide it's now multi-billion dollar sellers in the world and we looked at the mechanisms when we found the mechanisms for cancer had nothing to do with what how people thought it worked so when I look at the mechanisms for iom xine yes they do hit some very interesting anti-cancer Pathways so anti is a potential IAL anti-cancer agent but it will not get any Boost from Big farmer who only interested in agents they can charge hundreds of thousands a year off like the checkpoint I me is I believe and we're working on the laboratory so I I put my money well my mouth is we got no funding to do this but on the other thing we're putting it in parallel with other things uh to look at the real in and I'm very very optimistic we will find something because I me in and uh then there's mebendazol and fendol which are the same drug one is cheap and give to animals the other is dear and you give to the main one but they all have action on the mitochondria which is the ail's heel of a cancer cell so I think you know out of this we might have a uh something really much more effective in cancer in the future that doesn't involve big Farmer and the the billions they claim to the government they have to charge a fortune because of the billions of research they spend they don't spend it but they just buy it up and sell it see the big billions in research that's done is usually done by the Charities and the government so I think it's about time we challenge this hegemony about big Barm uh doing this and they they've completely controlled uh what's done and what's allowed to be done by raising the barriers of entry for everything for small spin outs for academic work for repurposing and I think it's about time we stood up to that and said as churcher would say up with this we will not put you know absolutely and the mitochondrial effect Robert could be part of the the effect that you're seeing in your chronic patients as well um the crossover between vaccine injury long Co and chronic fatigue we've talked about the the postvaccine or the post viral uh infection syndrome long CO's uh the what I find fascinating and I'm sure you're going to find this fascinating when they start looking at those who do well or not particularly well with your product is this computational type of genetics where they're actually looking at genetic interplay uh so it's we've gone past the mallion we've gone past the the point mutations we're now looking at the way this Gene interacts with another and with these people who are going on and getting long-term problems uh one they get a persistent anent and they got defects particularly in a immunity but the genetic defect that second cluster is in mitochondrial development of high energy phosphate bonds it's really very which is why mention may be very useful which would be fascinating yeah excellent gentlemen thank you both so much the fact that um that you have both got such distinguished Medical Careers in different countries although cosos has worked in austral a austr and he had the good sense to marry in Australian as well you mentioned yesterday oh well I didn't know that I got an Australian passport oh well so you can join the shortest queue in the airport no the fact that you you've come from different um angles at this and and I've come to this agreement to me means that that is that is really powerful um supporting evidence that that the conclusions are the same from different uh different academic areas of medicine it's um I'm totally convinced and I'm sure many people watching the video will um and can't wait for the next conversation but for now thank you both very much thanks very much great having it with Robert here it's been fantastic it's been brilliant up on Australian map John uh so I I apologize we I didn't get round to it oh the British viewers will appreciate the uh we'll have to make a map video next time next time I'm there lots of interesting stuff but for now thank you very much

Channel: Dr. John Campbell

Views: 213,477

Keywords: physiology, nursing, NCLEX, health, disease, biology, medicine, nurse education, medical education, pathophysiology, campbell, human biology, human body

Id: iS1talMLNJQ

Length: 64min 36sec (3876 seconds)

Published: Wed May 22 2024