Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Rudy, you've
written the books Super Brain and Super Genes., what is interesting to me is when you say "super
genes," are there people... for example, I want to experience this consciousness, I want to experience
this reality. Is there a predisposition to that? Am I born with
those super genes to experience it? Dr. Rudy Tanzi: When Deepak and I wrote Super Brain
and Super Genes, and the third book in the trilogy was The Healing Self, the idea was that to tell people you
are more than your brain, you're more than your genes, that with regard to genes, it's kind of like clay. Your
parents have given you the clay, but you get to sculpt it. But basically, your lifestyle is not only changing the
wiring of your brain every day through neuroplasticity, but through repetition and new habits, and
where that wiring becomes more solidified, you're also changing gene expression. So, if you're
eating junk food every day, your genes are responding to the inflammation that causes and you're... you
feel sick. Whereas, if you spend at least two months reshaping your diet, changing your neuroplasticity,
changing your gene expression, as we wrote in the book, you can go on autopilot. Your gene expression
has changed in patterns that help you to now live a more...
live a healthier life. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Dr. Chopra, you are
a co-author of this book. Any comments on that? Dr. Deepak Chopra: Yeah, I think both neuroplasticity
and epigenetics actually show the primacy of consciousness in modulating our biological
activity. And this is very relevant right now in... given what's happening in the world, because
I see one of the topics here is social impact. So, now as we look at the world and look at the
trauma that's happening, it's kind of reminiscent of what happened in the Second World War. There's
evidence that people in the Holocaust, for example, who suffered starvation in the Netherlands, their
descendants now have diabetes and metabolic syndrome. So, the sequence seems to be separate mind, fear,
anger, which is the memory of trauma - and fear creates trauma, all kinds of trauma. Fear, anger, memory
of trauma, hostility, which is desire for vengeance. If you have a conscience, then some guilt and
shame that goes with it. And the totality of that, which is called depression. And right now, depression
and mental illness is actually the number one pandemic, no matter what anyone says. And it's epigenetically
recycling the trauma, which will go on for generations. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: So, Sadhguru, the question
to you is, how do we... how much time it will take for us to distance ourselves or change this epigenetics
for the gene expressions and consciously make our own? Is it possible? How long does it take? How
quickly can it happen, and what should we do? Sadhguru: Namaskaram, good morning to everyone.
Participants: Good morning. Sadhguru: Well, I must warn you that first and
foremost, I do not ascribe to any particular philosophy, ideology, or belief system. Essentially, I am
without identities within myself and I am also... very carefully kept myself uneducated, and
pretty much uncivilized. Why I'm saying this is, hugely qualified people are here with
enormous experience and science behind them. So, what I may say may look completely off at sometimes.
But as you know, science is going step by step towards a certain reality. Now, I see it is pointing
in the right direction. But the question is if I point you towards something, do you have
the eyes to see it? That's the question. When I say, "Do you have the eyes to
see?" right now, I'm taking this literally. These two eyes are qualified to see only those
things which stop light. You can see my hand because it stops light. My hand is not so vital for your
existence. But the air that you breathe is very vital, but you cannot see it. This is the nature of our sense...
sense perception. It is not that everything that's vital to us we are seeing. We are only seeing whatever
is... objects which stops light and reflects light, that's all we can see. That goes for all sense organs,
because they're contextual, because essentially they're survival instruments which we are trying
to use as instruments to know. Sense organs, the more you sharpen them, they'll help you to
survive better. And as I already warned you, what you call as my brain is full of information
coming from sense perception - what you see, what you hear, what you smell, what you
taste, what you touch. To what extent means if you walk from there to here, there could be let's say 25
different kinds of smells. You don't notice it consciously, but all of it is recorded. Only if something becomes
very acute, you notice it. But if you bring a dog here, he smells all the 25 and more. So, though our neurological
system is far more evolved than that of a dog, somehow he can smell more because we
are clouded by our own cerebral activity. Too much thinking going on non-stop. You know, in the
Indian jungles, I have been for weeks on end by myself. If you meet the tribal guy... I am also like this. If he just
walk in, I'll tell you which animal is in which direction, even if it's a kilometer
away, just the smell. Most of the city folk, this is some... I'm not
exaggerating, you take them inside, that guy will say, "See, the elephant, elephant!" "Where? Where?
Where?" You can't see an elephant because it takes a certain amount of training to be able to
spot an elephant in a jungle. I... If you go to Africa, they are standing there in the open field, it's very easy.
In Southern Indian jungles, elephant will be right there, you cannot see because his color and his... the way he
is, is so... merges with everything. Having said that, now we are pointing in the right direction. How do we get
eyes to see something that we are not seeing right now? That's a very important question that I feel
the scientific community should address. Right now, we are trying to look at everything from
what is measurable. If something is measurable, obviously it's a quantity. Whether you weigh it
or you scale it or you do whatever, whichever way, if you measure it, it's a quantity. Now we're talking
about transforming ourselves from the way we are born to the way we want to be. In essence, when you say
epigenetics, we're talking about, we're born one way, but we want to become something else
altogether. Whatever that something else is, what is the range of modifications we can
do and how quickly? Is that the question? Well, the range of modification is limitless. Time
depends on various aspects. One thing is, the type of information you have in your system. How
hardwired are you? How easy is it to unwire you? How identified are you with things that
you know? See, this is very important. Whatever you see as truth in your life,
it's very difficult to dissociate from that. To be able to see something that is... as
absolutely true, and still be dissociated with that, takes an enormous amount of work within
yourself, that you keep a distance from things that you see as hundred percent true. What you see as
true, you cannot throw it away. Am I correct? Hello? What I see as true, it's very easy to throw it away.
What you see as true, hard to dissociate with that. Having said that, ma... I... I don't want to use scientific
words because I am nowhere there, all right? But can you change the complexion of the person that you
are today? Hundred percent, today. It's possible. The question is, are you willing to subject
yourself to such a overhaul? Because are you willing to lose everything that you think you are, and
become something else? No, most human beings are not. They will come in installments. Their willingness...
I have been working with people for over 40 years. Their willingness comes in installments.
They will come to me and say, "Sadhguru, I will... want to go all the way, Sadhguru!" I said,
"Really? All the way? Okay, you stay here for a week, let's see what we can do." "No, Sadhguru, on
Wednesday morning, my uncle's daughter's birthday. I have to go." I said, "Okay, your uncle's daughter's birthday,
at least these three days, you do this, this, and this." "No, Sadhguru, I don't like this." So, I tell
them... give them a small piece of paper and say, "Write down all the things that you like, we'll do only that."
They will think like this and write three or four things. I say, "What, in this whole damn universe, you like
four things? This... With this, you want to transform?" No, this is what I'm saying, willing... willingness
comes in installments because what you know and experience as true, you can't dissociate. This
can only happen if you have a mad sense of courage, or you have enormous trust. Without these two
things, you cannot dis... determine the time. But can you do it? One hundred percent,
absolutely. Will you do it? Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Christof, you know,
you are one of the co-theorists about the integrated information theory, which is more popular now on
consciousness. Can you put it in simple words that most of us can understand? Sadhguru: In English, they're saying. Dr. Christoph Koch: Can I have the remaining
90 minutes? So, integrated information theory takes a different approach. It says, the only thing
that you know, the only thing that's given to you, the only form of existence is consciousness. When I'm
not conscious, when I'm deeply asleep or unconscious, I don't exist for myself. So, it's really sort of you
start with what really exists, which is my consciousness. And then, from there, you seek to
explain the world, and you seek to explain what is it about the world that gives that sort of...
what is the substrate of this conscious experience? So, it combines elements of what's called idealism with
elements of physicalism. It says there's a substrate. In our case, it's the brain. It's not the heart as most
people thought, it's the brain. And so, it says, "Well, what is it about the brain that gives rise to into
consciousness?" So, it looks for particular very complex, irreducible aspect of reality. Ultimately, it says
anything in the world - anything, not just this substrate, but any other substrate, including other animals, including
possible trees or bacteria or maybe even elementary matter, as long as it has some measure of
complexity, as long as it is irreducible - so it starts with irreducibility - it has some
aspect of mind. And so it shares some aspect with what's called panpsychism. I also belief
that consciousness is probably much more. There are many more things that are ensouled in the
universe than just this or maybe dogs, and cats, and great apes. And then, it tries to make some
prediction because it's a scientific theory, so tries to make prediction. Where does
consciousness happen in the human brain or in the brains of other creatures? Can you build a
conscious meter? So Stephen Lawrence this morning talked about the ways to test for the presence of
consciousness in patients that are unable to communicate. We don't... We simply don't know whether they're
conscious or not, so you know, trying to build an unconscious meter. And it also makes... It also in
first consciousness where it is, and where it's not where it's not present. So, most famously,
integrated information theory says that machines, particular large language models like chat GPT or
GPT 4, 3.5 or 4.0, they can do almost everything that we can do. And in very few years, they will be
able to do everything we can do, but just much better, faster and better with perfect recall, perfect
memory. But they can never be what we are because they don't have... If you look at actually where the rubber
hits the road, if you look at the physical substrate, it's very simple digital gates doing their
thing. And consciousness is not a computation. The technical term it's non-algorithmic, it's not
Turing computable. And so, that would say, yes, the machines that we are surrounded with and we
live now in the age of intelligent machines, and they'll become more and more intelligent with unknown
consequences for our future. But they're not sentient, and they're not conscious. So, those are some of
the implications of integrated information theory. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Thank you. So,
you met Sadhguru last night for the first time. And if I give you one question that you could
ask about this consciousness, nothing else. Dr. Christoph Koch: So, I wanted to ask you a
question about science and, and spirituality. So, science is enormously successful. It gave us rise to
all of this. And, you know, chat GPT and nuclear weapons and mRNA COVID vaccines and all of that good
stuff, and knowledge about the universe. But it started with Galileo saying, you know, "We
have to make measurable what's not measurable. If it can't be measured, we don't study it as scientists."
And be with Renee Descartes, you know, dividing everything into, you know, into these dual domains
of the physical and the mental and by and large, scientists don't worry about the mental
because it can't really be measured. And so, given that this is the case, what do you
expect that science can give all of us? We obviously suffer in the modern world from enormously mental
health crisis. Like we're living through this time of deep depolarization crisis. So, what is
it? Given these characters of science, what is it, if anything, that we can
do to help people overcome their suffering? Sadhguru: Well, the
question is not about consciousness. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Yeah, I was going to say that. Sadhguru: The question is about suffering. See, when
any... any human being, if you know some suffering, you know only two kinds of suffering
- physical suffering, mental suffering. You do not know any other kind of suffering. Am
I... Am I correct? Hello? Dr. Christoph Koch: Yes. Sadhguru: These are only two things. Physical
aspect of who we are and the mental structure, both these things, you built from within over a
period of time. You were not born this way. You were born like this. Some input was
there. Rest, you built over a period of time, by the food that we eat and the impressions that we
gather and how we gather and how we eat, of course. With this, we built different kinds of bodies and
different kinds of minds. If you build something, let's... to make it simple, let's say if you build
a machine, the most important thing is it should take instructions from you. If you have a car
that if you move the steering this way, it'll go this way, this is a dangerous car. So, now your body and
your mind, let me ask you a few simple questions... Will you answer me please?
Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If your body becomes pleasant, we call
this health. You want it? Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: No, that's only about 15-16 people. So,
the remaining, I'm asking you... Whether you... Whether you say yes, no, or silence, I'll bless you,
all right? Health, you want it? Participants: Yes! Sadhguru: Because that big yes has not happened within
you, you must know this. It's not you saying yes to me. Every cell in your body must hear you're
saying yes to it. Yes? Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If it becomes very pleasant,
we call it pleasure. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: Hey, come on! Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If your
mind becomes pleasant, we call this peace. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If it
becomes very pleasant, we call it joy. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If your emotions
be... become pleasant, we call this love. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If it becomes
very pleasant, we call it compassion. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If these very life energies
become pleasant, we call this blissfulness. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If it becomes very pleasant, we call it ecstasy. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: If your surroundings
become pleasant, we call this success. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: Only to create pleasantness in our
surroundings, we need the cooperation of all these people and many other forces. But to create pleasantness
in your body, in your mind, in your emotion, and in energy is one hundred percent your business.
Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: So, your suffering is just that,
you have not taken charge of this machine. You have not taken charge of your faculties.
I'm asking you, if your thought and emotion right now happened the way you want, would you
create blissfulness or misery? Please tell me. What's your choice?
Participants: Blissfulness. Sadhguru: For yourself. What you want for your
neighbor may be debatable , but for yourself, highest level of pleasantness, isn't it?
Can I tell you a little joke? Is it okay? Because these things get so serious, we start
suffering. Conferences can be suffered, you know that. I have suffered many. On a certain day, a lady
went to sleep. In her sleep, she had a dream. In her dream, she saw hunk of a man standing there
and staring at her. Then, he started coming closer, closer, closer, and closer, that she could even
feel his breath. And she trembled, not in fear, and then she asked, "What will you do to
me?" He said, "Well, lady, it's your dream. You can do whatever the hell you want." So, right
now, it's not even about your life is not happening the way you want. Even your dream is not happening
the way you want. If your dream was happening the way you want, would you suffer? So, suffering
is simply because you have misunderstood your psychological reality as existential. Your
psychological drama has become bigger than the cosmo... cosmic drama that's happening. So, once you have
such a misconception, such a lack of context in the universe, then you must suffer. Hello? When
you misunderstand that you're bigger than the cosmos, you should suffer some, isn't it? That's all it
is about. This may sound unempathetic because people are always in this mode, "I scratch your
back, you scratch my back. Both of us are right." So, this is the deal between the suffering. But
does anybody consciously wants to suffer? No. But too many people are committed to suffering.
Too many people are committed to suffering. Either they're encouraged by their religious beliefs,
or they believe that's the only way you will mature, that is the only way you will
know. It's a sad conclusion you have made. You tell me, or any of the scientists who are here
can tell me, this body and this brain works best when it's peaceful and joyful. This is my experience,
sir. Is it correct, sir? I don't know who are the brain scientists. Is it correct? Your body and
your brain works at its best when it's in a pleasant state of experience. How do you
think by suffering you will realize something? Somebody is psyching you to believe that
because your suffering is their business. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: Professor Carr,
it's your time. I'm not... Because it's your time. So I'll give it to you, so you can ask whatever.
You can talk and, you know, ask questions. Dr. Bernard Carr: Why it was essential to expand
physics to accommodate mental and spiritual phenomena. Now I have to... I think I did stress that
that isn't a dream that most physicists share. Most physicists prefer to focus on the material
world. And I should also say that even people of a mystical tradition don't necessarily welcome the
attempt to relate these higher realities to physics. It is sometimes felt that it's too reductionist, you can't
reduce everything to science, and in particular to physics. But I disagree with that. And I suppose that simply because I am a
physicist and I'm passionate about physics. I've seen how successful it has been describing
the material world, and I want to expand that success to these other domains. But in my talk
this morning, I didn't actually discuss my specific proposal for how to do that, so maybe I can
just spend a few minutes now saying how I think that can be done by
expanding one's ideas of space and time. But I should say that everything I'm going to say
now is more speculative. What I said this morning, I would say passionately, it just has to be true. But
what I'm now going to talk about might be all wrong. It's just my particular picture. So, first of all, I
was going to talk about space. And I just want to say how within the concepts of physics, what we mean
by space has changed. In the old Newtonian physics, space was three-dimensional. You had three dimensions
of space, and you had one dimension at time, and that was the idea of reality. In the Newtonian
perspective, the reality is three-dimensional. We exist in a three-dimensional world, we all see
different parts of the world. But the fact is that so long as you specify where the brains are and
where the objects are, you consistently reconcile how everybody experiences the world. And that
view prevailed for several hundred years. But then Einstein came along, and he showed us
that actually the world is four dimensional. Space and time merge together. And that
actually really completely changes your view of the nature of reality. It's saying, the only way to
consistently reconcile how we all experience the world, including people moving at very fast speeds
or in strong gravitational fields, is to say reality is four dimensional, it's not
three-dimensional. And all physicists would accept that. But then in about the 1920s, two physicists called
Kaluza and Klein, they realized that they could give a geometrical interpretation of electromagnetism
by invoking a fifth dimension. Einstein had given a geometrical interpretation of gravity in terms of
K...space. They said, "Well, you can do the same thing. I can explain electromagnetism, which was
then the other known force apart from gravity, by saying there's a fifth dimension." But, this
fifth dimension is wrapped up very, very, very small. It's actually wrapped up on the Planck scale, . So you
can't see it, but it's there and it beautifully describes from a mathematical point of view, physical reality.
That was in the 1920s. But then people more or less forgot about it because they got distracted
by quantum theory. But then in the mid 1980s, people resurrected the idea, and they realized that
you could introduce extra dimensions and explain all of physics because by the 1980s, there are
other forces besides gravity and electromagnetism. But there had to be ten dimensions. In fact, you had
the four macroscopic dimensions of space and time, but you had these six extra dimensions which were all
wrapped up very small. But there were lots of different... This is called superstring theory, but there were
many different versions of superstring theory. But then in the mid 1990s, Ed Witten, who's a
very brilliant physicist, also from Princeton... So many people seem to come from Princeton and
Harvard, but anyway, Ed Witten realized that in fact you need 11 dimensions. And if you have one extra
dimensions, you can actually ex... bring all these different versions of string theory together. Sadhguru: Oh, who said that, sir? Because in the Yogic...
in the Yogic sciences, it's always seen as 11 dimensions. Dr. Bernard Carr: Ah, well, I didn't know that, Sadhguru.
I didn't know it was specifically 11 dimensions. I don't know whether Ed Witten actually read
the text. I will refer him to it anyway. He's supposed to be the biggest brain on the planet. So
I mean, I'll make sure he - within physics. Sadhguru: No, that's very interesting. Dr. Bernard Carr: So, but... Sadhguru:
Because... Through the nature of truth is such, from whichever direction you look at
it, it's still the same. Dr. Bernard Carr: Right, right. Whether you come from physics or
whether you come from a spiritual... Sadhguru: Yes! It doesn't matter where you
come from. If you see it, it's the same thing. Dr. Christof Koch: Can I just ask a naive question,
just as an experimentalist, what evidence, what empirical evidence do we have for any
of these dimensions beyond the usual four? Dr. Bernard Carr: Christof, that is a very good
question, and the answer is actually almost none. This is why... And that's quite correct. And that is the criticism of
some of these theories that they're purely mathematical, that there isn't actually any evidence for
them . Now some people say, because their energies involved are so high. Some people say, "Well, this
means it's not physics, it's maths or philosophy even." On the other hand, the people who are doing
this, they are physicists, they're working in physics departments, they've got billions of dollars
of grants. So, that's a really important point. I always take the view that, okay, there isn't evidence
now, but if you wait long enough, the evidence may come. We have to be patient. But you're quite right, at the
moment, there isn't any evidence for these extra dimensions. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: But they have the same
criticism for IAT too. Speaker: For which? Dr. Bernard Carr: You know, absolutely.
You have the same criticism of many things. But let me carry on, because otherwise
I'll forget my train of thought so... Now let's ask about mental experience. We all
know we experience this world, phenomenal space. But that's the physic... our experience of the
physical world. And there's a long philosophical debate about the relationship between
physical space and phenomenal space, but that's really relatively straightforward.
However, I'm interested in the spaces we experience in other states of consciousness other than just in
the waking state. There's been a lot of discussion about dreams and lucid dreams. Well, I have lucid
dreams too, and what's fascinating to me about dreams is that they take place in a space, just as
vivid as physical space. Sometimes, I have to confess, I have dreams and I'm not even sure if I'm awake
or not, you know, because the space is so... seems so similar. So, there is a space. Sometimes
you... And of course if you have a lucid dream, it becomes even more... You can do experiments
and say, "Is this like a real space or not?" But then there are other experiences, out-of-body
experiences. I'm sure quite a lot of people here have had out-of-body experiences. In out-of-body
experience, your consciousness leaves your physical body and seems to wander around. It seems to be
in the physical world, but it's distorted. You know, you go out of the roof, and you suddenly
notice the chimney pots in the wrong place. So, somehow you're experiencing a space,
but it's not identical to physical space, even though it's related to physical space. You
have the experience of ghosts, apparitions. Now, of course, most people will say - there's no doubt
people see ghosts - but most psychologists would say the ghost is just a hallucination. So for example,
I see Cleopatra walking down the aisle here. If I only see it rather than you see it,
then of course you can just say I'm crazy. However, there are cases of ghosts, which
are collective in the sense that more than one person sees them at the same time. And it's
as though the ghost is in a space of its own, and because you can see it from a different
perspective, but it's not in a physical space. It's not in normal physical space. In that sense,
it's not real. And then there are experiences like near-death experiences. And clearly near-death
experiences occur in a space, in the sense that you go through a tunnel where you cross a
bridge. So, but again, it's not physical space. Now then, mystical experience... Now, I have to
say I have had very little mystical experience. I'm not a mystically evolved being at all,
but I've read other people's experiences, and some mystical experiences also have a spatial
feature. Not always - some elements of mystical experience seem to go beyond space and time. But
some experiences that could be called mystical seem to involve a space, but not physical
space. So to summarize that, I would simply say, the experience of mental and spiritual
experiences very often involve a sort of space. And if you like, a collective mind space in which
our individual minds, individual consciousnesses with a little c are just part of consciousness
of the big C, and minds with a little m are just part of this mind with a big M. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: so Sadhguru, do
we have a comment on what Bernard just said? Sadhguru: See, in the modern term of the word
"mind," we're talking about it like it's one piece. Well, how we see it is, there is a front end of the
mind which is the intellect, which we call buddhi. And there is a second stage of mind which we
call as ahankara, which is essentially identity. This is one thing that modern societies have
failed to address, that is the identity. Because it's your identity which allows your
intellect to function in a particular way. If you're identified, let's say with this nation, if you see
the country's flag, tears will come to you. It's genuine. You're not faking it, it's genuine. So,
the more identified you are with something, the more committed your intellect is to that
identity. You cannot do anything about it. It will work within that. If you're identified as
a scientist, as a mystic, as a Yogi or whatever, it will function within that. So, there are whole
systems of Yoga, where we are constantly working to see that the identity is cosmic in nature,
that you don't identify with anything. Difficult to not identify with anything, so you
identify with something for which you cannot see the boundaries, because this fixed identity is the
basis of all human intellect functioning in different ways. If I think I'm this religion, it functions one way.
If I think I'm atheist, it functions another way. If I think this nation, it functions one way,
another something else, it functions another way. Your intellect is completely committed to your
identity. So, how to go beyond one's identity? Because if you go beyond your identity, you lose your
persona completely. Your personality itself is gone. Are you willing to do that? That's why I said in
the very beginning, is it possible? Hundred percent. But are you willing, is the question. Are you
willing to be... the only capital that you have, are you willing to throw it away, which is you?
As you know... as you know yourself as a person. The next aspect of the mind is eight dimensions
of memory. We refer to this as elemental memory, evolutionary memory, genetic memory, karmic
memory, conscious and unconscious levels of memory, and articulate and inarticulate levels of
memory. You may have memory, you know, but there are many things you cannot articulate. So, these
eight forms of memory is a big silo sitting there, and let's use an analogy. If I ask you a simple question,
do you want your intellect to be sharp or blunt? Participants: Sharp. Sadhguru: So essentially, your intellect is
a cutting instrument, it's the front end. So with a cutting instrument, you can dissect. I want to
know you, so I will bring my intellect and dissect you. By dissecting you, I may find your liver, ka...
kidney and spleen, but I will not find you. If I embrace you, maybe I will know
something of you. Hello? If I dissect you, I will know nothing of you. But if I embrace
you... When I say embrace, I'm talking about if I include you in some way, I know something.
So, this instrument of cutting or dissection, we're trying to use it across the board for
everything. It is like you use a cutting instrument, let's say you have a knife,
you go on to stitch your clothes with it, it'll become like the latest fashion. Everything
is torn, all right? So, you try to handle your life with just your intellect, it will be in bits and
pieces. You're seeing this, the more education, modern education happens, people are more confused
than ever before. Does it mean to say it's wrong? No. I'm not saying better to be uneducated, but
uneducated... to remain uneducated, it's very hard, I want you to know. It takes a lot of
striving that you're not inf... influenced by any data that comes to you, you're not
influenced by any information that you hold. It doesn't matter how valuable it is, how sacred it
is, where it comes from. It comes from a scripture, it comes from a professor, it comes from a guru,
it doesn't matter, you are not identified with it. Like there's a whole lot of information in your
phone. If you don't really identify with it, it just stays there, you're not influenced by it.
Similarly, a whole lot of data in this, from parentage, from circumstances, in so many different
ways, but uninfluenced. But what kind of hand holds the knife will decide how the knife functions,
which will... Will this save somebody's life, or will this take somebody's life, is not dependent
on the knife. It is dependent on the hand which holds it. And now this hand is connected to
the silo of memory. If this is a limited identity, it will use all these memory capabilities in
a limited way, because essentially intellect is a instrument of self-preservation. To preserve
yourself in so many different ways - preservation is not just physical. You need psychological
preservation, emotional preservation, social preservation, various levels of preservation to live. So, always your
intellect is being used for self-preservation purposes. Self-preservation means survival. Survival
is very important, but at the same time, it doesn't ever fulfill you. If you had come here as
any other creature, stomach full, your life is settled. Once you come as a human being, stomach
fu... stomach empty, only one problem, stomach full, one hundred problems. This is the
nature of a human being, because what you call as human begins only after your survival is taken care
of. Till then you're just another biological creature. Only when survival is settled, only when your
instinct of survival is kept down, the possibility of being a conscious human being arises
within you. So, keeping the identity down or making the identity as limitless as possible
in your imagination, is most important to see that the knowledge or the memory or the information
that you have from various sources, functions in a way which is not in conflict with yourself or with
anything else. Right now, the very information that you carry tortures you in a thousand different
ways, because if you have a very sharp knife, you must have a very steady hand. If you're little la la
la la kind, intestines will come out. Hello? So, the third portion of the mind is called manas, which
is a silo of memory. The fourth portion of the mind - which is the most important, which has remained
largely unexplored by people who approach this in an intellectual way - is called chitta.
Chitta means it is an intelligence which is unsullied by memory. There is no memory, but it's intelligence.
Can it do something? It can't do nothing. Only if you give it a little bit of memory, it will function
according to the intent and direction of that memory. Otherwise it doesn't function, but it is the basis of
everything. Well, right now, this word consciousness is everywhere. See, I think the fundamental
diff... distinction we need to make is, you being conscious right now. You're conscious
obviously. You being conscious or unconscious, these are two different states. Consciousness
is not about this. We are misunderstanding mental awareness as consciousness. So, we look
at it this way, chitta... Well let's look at it from the other side - prana, pragna,
and chitta. So, pragna is your awareness. Right now you're in pragna, you're aware,
you're not asleep. Prana is... heart is beating, you're not beating it, it's working by itself. Hello?
It is not your intellect which makes the liver function. There is an intelligence. If you eat a piece of
bread over the afternoon, it becomes this complex human body. This is not your intellect. You can't
think it out. You can't put this many chemicals, and make a liver or a kidney or something else.
Maybe one day you will build it. But still, there is an intelligence within you which is doing things
that, you do what you want, you cannot figure it out. To that extent it is happening, because intellect
functions from the limited data that we feed it. Well, this is like suppose there is a trillion
piece jigsaw. You got five pieces, then you said, "This is a bear." But you got eight one day.
Then you say, "Oh, no, no, this is an elephant." You got 12, then you say, "This is a dinosaur." This
will go on because you're dealing with something which even modern science, physicists are openly
saying it is boundless. So that which is boundless, trying to define it intellectually will take us on a...
will keep barking on the wrong... up the wrong tree for too long. So that's why I said, it's fortunate to see that science is pointing at last
in the right direction. Time to get the eyes to see it. That's a different job altogether. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: We do have some
audience questions to both Deepak and Sadhguru, that is, you mentioned about toorya, that state
of consciousness that is unsullied by memory. How... I don't know what that is. If there is no
memory, how do I know that I was in that state? Sadhguru: Right now, as
I said, your body... Deepak, you want to? Dr. Deepak Chopra: Sure. Sadhguru: Your body and mind, I said, is memory. But in
between, Deepak tried, I mean, kind of tried a process that when you said yes, immediately, that's mind.
When yes eh... said yes after a span of time. In that time, you're you. But I would say even
in that time, they're are still mind unexpressed because you're told not to. So I'm saying,
you're misunderstanding the psychological content and drama of your mind as a reality. Your
psychological drama is your psychological drama. It's that... like the lady who had a dream. You could
do whatever you want. Because your psychological drama is running riot without your permission, you think
it's a phenomena by itself. No, this is a phenomena ignited by you. Well, a simple thing. I generally
use worse words, because this is a university I'm trying to use better words. But if you're just
people, I will use the words. What people are having is just a mental diarrhea. Today, if you have diarrhea
physically, today's doctors will try to plug it with a tablet or a wine cork. I don't know how
they do it. In traditional medicine in India, if you say you have diarrhea, first thing is they
say, "Don't eat anything." Stop, because you've eaten something wrong. That's the fundamental. Something
has gone into you which doesn't agree with the system. First thing is, just cleanse the system. Don't eat, just
drink water. Just let it go, let it go, let it cleanse itself, whatever needs... Because body is trying to purge
something that it doesn't want. Just let it go. Keeping it inside is the wrong thing to do. So,
this is a mental diarrhea. How did this happen? You've taken something wrong. What is something
wrong? The moment you identify yourself with something that you are not, you can't stop
the diarrhea. It will go on and on and on. If you just sit here without identifying yourself with
your university, with your family, with your knowledge, with your wealth, with whatever else and your body
and the content of your mind, if you simply sit here, diarrhe... diarrhea will immediately stop. Because
there's no bad food, it will stop. It's as simple as that. There are states of consciousness beyond toorya. There's
toorya tata, which is local and non-local awareness at the same time. There's something called bhagavad
chetna, where you can see a person locally and in their non-local being. And there is something
called bramhichetna, where there is nothing other than consciousness as the source of
all that exists. Dr. Balachundhar Subramaniam: So if I'm
in that state, do I know that I was there? Dr. Deepak Chopra: If you're in that state, in the
gap, you exist as pure consciousness, that's all, as the field of all the possibilities. But ultimately
memory and karma and imagination are all the same thing. They're consciousness modifying themselves into
an experience, either cognitive or perceptual. What we call mind, body, and universe are perceptual
and cognitive activities in consciousness, but we label them
as mind, body, and universe.
