We are filming today for the Hamilton College
Jazz Archive. My name is Monk Rowe and we are in Delaware
Water Gap at the Deerhead Inn. I'm pleased to have bassist Steve Gilmore
with me. It's a pleasure to meet you, and perhaps talk
about why would you choose to make a living as a jazz musician? But we can save that - I mean that's a big
subject. SG: Well I mean I can tell you from my very
early origins that I remember I was involved with music somewhat. I remember when I was a kid, me having a pretty
good voice and singing harmony parts with my mother and father as we used to take trips
and drive together. And they would sing like the old favorites
like "Down by the Old Mill Stream" and I would harmonize with them and develop a kind of
an ear for music. And my mother actually tells the story of
- I was kind of attracted to band music, orchestra music, when I was rather young. I used to be able to get into the New York
Metropolitan Opera dress rehearsals for free in the afternoon so my music teacher in elementary
school would get a busload of kids together from the Philadelphia area and drive up there
and listen to the Metropolitan Opera. It was wonderful to hear a live orchestra
playing. So I was really attracted to that. And my mother and father anyway tell the story
of when I was sitting in bed Saturday nights we used to watch the "Lawrence Welk Show"
together, because I liked the big band and they liked Lawrence Welk. So occasionally they would bring the Dixieland
band out front to play a number, Lawrence would, and one time they did that the bass
player took like a slap bass solo -. And my mother said I was like, you know looking at
it, and after it was finished I turned to my mom and I said, "Mom, that's for me." And that's how I remember about it anyway. And then in sixth grade or seventh grade I
can't remember, they asked if anybody wanted to learn how to play a musical instrument
and I said, "I want to learn how to play that big thing, a bass." And the next thing I know - I was pretty big
for my age, I could handle one - I had a bass in my hands and I was taking lessons from
the local violin teacher. So that's the way it worked out. MR: That's neat. Most guys come to the bass from another direction
usually. SG: Yeah. Well it just kind of worked out that way - whether
it was providence made me do that, but all I remember is we had an exceptional high school
music program and the local band director actually was a local musician and when I was
14 years old I was out playing gigs with the older guys. So I had a pretty good ear so I had a really
good background for playing with people, playing in bands at that particular point. MR: Were you playing off fake book lead sheets? SG: No, strictly by ear. MR: Strictly by ear. SG: Yeah, you have to realize back then the
music of the day that you would play on weddings and club dates and stuff was like jazz standards,
that we play today. Not jazz tunes, but American composers, stuff
like that. So I was learning how songs go, how to get
a form for the way that they flow and everything at a very early age. Whereas today the music of the day is like
top 40 and rock & roll, so you don't get that same experience. MR: Put that in a time frame for me - when
you were 14, this was- SG: In the late 50s - I was born in 1943 so
I would say the late 50s I was out gigging with my music teacher. MR: And as you said the music, even though
you might not have been playing jazz per se, was based on tunes that jazz musicians would
use. Irving Berlin songs -
SG: Absolutely, positively. In the still of the night - that's just one
song that we would play and it was the popular song of the day and people used to dance to
it. Right away I got a feeling for the way that
tunes flowed. MR: Which fits with a statement you made. SG: Oh, you're going to remind me about it,
okay. MR: Now you said, "When I am playing well
I am not thinking of change, change, change; I'm trying to map a melody to the song." SG: Yes. Well I mean naturally when you learn a song
you are aware of the changes that are played behind you. But ideally if you're going to be playing
a song you're going to be focusing just on those changes, that's what it's going to sound
like, change, change, change, change - as opposed to the actual melody of the song,
which flows over those changes, which creates a beautiful cushion from one change to another. For me it generally involves probably less
notes and more thinking as opposed to just playing the changes and kind of running off
what you know, kind of running off at the mouth if you'll excuse the expression. That's the way I feel about using them, personally. MR: Sure. Almost like I think of some of the great bass
lines, like Bach would create, by not always using roots and stuff like that. SG: Yeah, yeah. You know it probably goes back to my other
instrument that I played in high school, I was also a very good baritone horn player
in high school. And the baritone horn is really equivalent
to a cello in the string orchestra in terms of function. And I would be playing these lovely countermelodies
and it kind of stuck in my head and I'd think to transfer that over to the bass, or whatever,
when I gave up the baritone horn. MR: In your statement "when I'm playing well,"
is there a mindset that comes to you, a thinking process, that all the gears become meshed
with your ear and so forth, for you to consider that you were playing well on that particular
thing. Or doesn't it get that far? SG: I try to, over the years I think I've
learned how to get myself in the proper frame of mind to go and perform on a gig that's
really important. You have to realize that not all the jobs
I play are terribly important. I play weddings and shows and anything to
make a buck these days. But when I know I'm going to be playing good
music, I make sure I get enough sleep if possible the day before, and have the right food so
I'm not stuffed with carbohydrates and all that stuff, and just kind of really prepare
myself physically and mentally, kind of be relaxed, kind of leave your troubles behind
you and go to the job and just focus on just peace and love and playing with your friends
and making some really good music together. Over the years I think I've learned how to
do that, although I do fail many times. It's not always visible to the listener out
front that you're playing really well, and I think you know yourself that there's a lot
of people who come to hear music and the music may be really good but not up to my standards
or anybody's standards, but they really don't always know the difference. They can just hear some nice things going
on and they're very appreciative and I'm very appreciative too. Before when I was younger, when people used
to say, "Oh you sounded beautiful," I'd say, "ah, I sounded like shit tonight." But I do that, but that's really a stupid
thing to do though. You should never really do that. You should say, "Thank you very much I'm really
glad you enjoyed the music." And now that's kind of the way I prepare myself. Also if you're playing some very difficult
music it's essential that you go over the music. If you know you're going to have to play it,
if you have some of the tunes available, if I have a change I generally do that. For example next week I'm going to go Japan
for a couple of weeks with Jim Hall. And I went to New York a couple of days ago
and rehearsed, although Jim's rehearsals really are pretty funny, they're not really rehearsals. I don't think Jim really likes to rehearse. We just played the heads to the song, then
he showed me the music and that's all he really wanted to do. So I'll take the music home and work on something
I feel - if I want to solidify it in my mind. But that's all we did. We spent like 15 minutes going over the music
and talking, then we had a sandwich and that was it. But I'll do that on my own, I'll have anything
I feel I need to really think about I will think about. And even stuff I don't have to think about
I'll try to live the music for a few days maybe before I actually play it with the group. That's the way the music is sometimes. I mean we're going to go over to Japan with
Jim and we've never really - I mean I've played with Jim before and I've played with Tana
before and I've played with Chris Potter before but we've never actually played as a group
together. So it'll be fun. That's jazz. That's what it's all about. MR: So it's a quartet? SG: It'll be a trio for a couple of days,
until Chris can make it over I think. He's got another commitment. MR: Well Japan seems to be a pretty good place
for jazz players to go. SG: Well I think the people really love the
music. The people who are connected with jazz really
love it and they're very supportive of it. And I love to go over to Japan. The audience is great and they treat you really
nice over there - and it's nice to play anywhere these days. It's nice to go and play before an audience
of people who are really genuinely appreciative. MR: Did you find it necessary to move into
New York like most of the young jazz players seem to? Or did you go a different route? SG: Well I kind of went on a funny route. I've actually live here in the Poconos for
25 years. And I've never per se have lived in New York
at all. You know it's really not necessary, I mean
it's only 70 miles to the City from here. It's super highway all the way in, I just
can commute every night. It's not that big a deal. I'm really used to it. I mean it's sometimes longer to take you the
middle of Long Island or up in Westchester to get to the City, depending on traffic. So I never felt it necessary although I do
really believe that I probably have lost some work not being right in the middle of town
so to speak, or living in that area. I think I probably lost a lot of work because
people think that I'm working with Phil Woods all the time, since I've gained a certain
reputation working with Phil. And the fact of the matter is, well particularly
right now, it's very slow with Phil, there's not a lot going on. But I've actually had people call me up and
say, "I was going to call you for this job but I thought you only liked to work with
Phil Woods, and you just don't work with anybody else." And I says, "You've got to be kidding." MR: Who told you that? SG: Some guy - some jazz musician who called
me up, he actually thought that I only play with Phil. I mean I love playing with Phil, don't misunderstand
me, but - MR: And they make a big thing out of the fact
that it's one of the few kind of working groups these days - the longevity it has, it's terrific
that you guys have a sound. SG: It used to be - it's such a beautiful
thing when a band has a group sound together. It's not something you really even talk about,
it's something that you kind of develop by playing so many years together and everybody
using their ears and coming up with a cohesive sound together. But the nature of the beast today is the promoters
over in Europe and everything, or wherever, go for like the all-star thing, they put an
all-star band together and they can put all the same names up on the marquee but they
don't have to pay the rhythm section's fees, hotel rooms and plane fare. So it's kind of an economic thing. But they're really missing out on the group
sound, and there's very few steady working groups out there today and I know of anyway. I mean there's a few but it's very hard. I understand Phil's problem. It's very hard to keep a band on the road
together, and create work all the time. MR: So from your high school days did you
make a conscious decision after high school - I'm going to be a jazz bassist? SG: I probably did in the back of my head,
but I graduated from high school - I never really went to college. But I did, in 1960 I graduated from high school
and I immediately went to Toronto and lived there for maybe a half a year, and at that
particular time the Oscar Peterson Trio had a jazz school which they called the Advanced
School of Contemporary Music in Toronto. And so I attended a semester of that and actually
got to study a little bit with Ray Brown and they had Phil Nimmons was a fine arranger/composer. I took arranging classes from him. And it was a great environment to be in. I stayed on a little while and took some classes
at the Royal Conservatory of Music. But basically that's the only musical training
I've had. So I came back and started to work regular
gigs like any other working musician. I took a job in a department store for a while
in the daytime and took gigs at night, and then I eventually ended up moving up here
in the Poconos and taking a job at one of the local resorts here, which happened to
be staffed by some wonderful musicians, New York guys who were living out here in the
area. A lot of people, a lot of New York musicians
lived in this area. It's a funny thing, the reason that a lot
of them ended up in this area and the Catskills, which is another resort area, was because
at that particular time the New York musicians had to have a cabaret card. And if you had any kind of minor offense of
any kind on your police record on your record or whatever, you were not able to get a cabaret
card. Billie Holiday ran into the same problem,
same kind of a thing. So you couldn't work in New York, so consequently
these guys had families, they came here and worked in resorts. And that was the circumstance in some of the
cases. But the point is there were some very fine
bands and I lucked into working with three other great musicians, and on the weekends
they had name acts come up and then they augmented the band by bringing some very fine name musicians
who came up and played in the pit band for the weekend for these shows. That's where I first met Phil Woods. Phil actually came up, he was living in New
Hope and he came up and played, did a weekend playing for somebody in the pit band. He had to make a living too. MR: So you played behind comedians? SG: Comedians, acts, I played for Tony Bennett,
I played for all kinds of very good singers who used to come and play these resorts for
the weekends. But then I did that for a while and I remember
I got mad one night. It was 1967 and I was doing these resorts
and stuff and I think I had a fight with a girlfriend, I broke up with a girlfriend and
got really mad and quit my job and threw all my stuff into the car, which would fit in
a car at that time, my bass and everything, and drove down to Miami, Florida to stay with
a friend for a few weeks, expecting to stay a few weeks and kind of sort things out. I ended up staying for four years and came
back with a wife and two kids. So the old expression "Shit Happens" it happens. So I stayed up there for four years and then
after four years I came back, I got an offer to come back to the very same resort that
I had left, so I wanted to be back near New York so I came back with my wife and two kids
and lived here in 1971 and I've been here ever since. And in 1974 I think it was, Phil Woods came
back and started to live in this very area, and he started dating Bill Goodwin's sister,
who eventually became his wife, and anyway that's where we all met, Phil started a band
in 1974 and that's the story, it's been like 25 years. MR: You played with some good people down
in Florida too, right? SG: I did. I worked for two years at the Old Rancher
Lounge in Miami. I worked with Ira Sullivan two years, and
it was great experience, because Ira is just such a wonderful, natural musician and the
chance to play jazz every night for two years was really good. Excuse the expression, I was kind of a fuck-up. I didn't really take full advantage of it
as I should, I didn't practice all the time, I was young and being involved in having fun
or whatever. But just playing jazz for two years, a steady
job was great doing that. And I think I actually got really serious
about my music back in 1971 and fortunately I started playing with people like Al and
Zoot and George Coleman and the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis Orchestra and things like that. And I think at that particular point I really
started practicing at an older age, when I was about 30 or something, I started to practice
like eight hours a day. I started to get a little bit better. It took me a while. Myself, I think I'm kind of a late bloomer. I consider myself considerably better now
than I did back in 1974 or even '84. So anyway the point is I got really serious
about my music I think at a later age. MR: So you've never stopped learning. SG: Well I don't think anybody really stops
learning unless they're giving up music. I mean if you are a true spirited musician,
you hear something on a record or the radio or you hear somebody play something and you
want to learn about it and imitate it and incorporate it into your own usage. MR: What was the brand, the style of jazz
that really seemed to appeal to you - and any particular bass players along the way? SG: Well I think I went through the gambit. I really kind of did it ass backwards quite
frankly. I started out, the first great bass player
I ever heard I liked was Leroy Vinnegar, God rest his soul - he died a few months ago. And then I'd go to this local record store
and the guy knew a little bit about jazz, and, "That's a pretty good bass player" he
said. "But let me play you this bass for you" and
he played a Ray Brown record for me. And I said oh, this guy is unbelievable. Then I proceeded to buy every Ray Brown record
I could find. And for many years I really didn't listen
to heck of a lot of other people, I just loved Ray Brown and I listened to Ray Brown. And that was pretty stupid. I mean ideally you should start, I should
listen to Jimmy Blanton first, and then maybe Oscar Pettiford, and then maybe Ray Brown
and Paul Chambers and kind of graduate. But I kind of switched them around a little
bit. But I would say I was pretty much influenced
by any fine musician, not necessarily limited to bass players. I mean I think - I would say quite frankly
my very favorite bass player ever to pick up the instrument was Red Mitchell. To me he is just the epitome of being a bass
player. Get that I can't do everything. With all respect to all the over fine instrumentalists
that I've heard, Red did something really special to me. There's nobody that ever played a solo like
Red. He was so melodic and so wonderful and so
musical. You know it's funny, a bass is a hard instrument
to play. And most guys who play the bass that I listened
to back in the old days, even if they're really good, you could hear they would kind of scuffle
a little bit. You could hear it was kind of hard to play
the instrument. So I said I don't want to sound like that
man. I want to sound flowing and melodic and lyrical,
and I don't want to make it appear like I'm scuffling, so I tried to develop this style
where I would use as little motion as possible. I kind of got that by watching and listening
to Red because when he plays it's like it's just coming out of him and it's no problem
at all, he just plays these lovely, beautiful, lyrical sounds and melodies. And I wanted to not necessarily sound like
Red but I wanted to get that same general feeling of comfort and ease when I play the
instrument. So that was kind of my aim back in those days
and probably is still my aim. MR: Did you ever have occasion to hang out
with him? SG: Oh yes I knew Red very well, oh yes. We were friends. His death was a very sad thing for the bass
world. As I understand it, I'm told later by other
people that Red knew about his condition and he put off - he needed a quadruple bypass
or something and he put it off because he was in the States and he really didn't have
the money or something, but he was a Swedish citizen and he wanted to wait to go back to
Sweden where he could have it done for nothing. So he put it off too long. He didn't have to die. But it's another problem of the economics
of being not only a jazz musician but any musician - we don't have a lot of protection
in this world, you have no health coverage, you have nothing, you have to do it all for
yourself, unless you work in an orchestra or something or a show and then you have coverage
through the union. But like your regular jazz musician or working
musician, you have to kind of go out and get it yourself. MR: Are these things that you could convince
young players to consider as they look at a career in music? SG: Well music is a wonderful profession,
listen man, what can you do - you've got to feel grateful every day. I mean you look at these poor people who go
out and do jobs who just do it to make a living and don't really have a good time no matter
what it is they do, whether they're doing office work or management work or digging
a ditch or whatever. They don't really enjoy it. Where I have an opportunity to go out and
do what I want to do when I play, even if it's a club date or a wedding or a recording,
a jingle or something that I don't really like, it's still playing music and you can
have a good time. You can express yourself, and I feel so grateful
for being able to do that. So consequently the point I'm making is it's
not a bad profession, I think it's a wonderful profession, and I'm grateful to be in it. I just wish the economic realities were somewhat
different than they are now. I would advise younger musicians, even if
you want to be a jazz musician to make sure for example, a saxophone player, make sure
you learn how to read very well, make sure you know how to play all your doubles, make
sure you're familiar with all styles of music so you can go out there and actually make
a living while you're getting ready for somebody to ask you to play in a jazz band or something. I think you really have to be prepared. I've heard other musicians disagree with me,
they say, "Well if you're going to be a jazz musician you've got to focus on it a hundred
percent, and forget all this other stuff and then you're going to be a great jazz musician." Well that doesn't always work out. I mean there's only X amount of jobs and there's
a lot of very great jazz musicians out there who are playing Broadway shows or doing this
or doing that, who deserve to be doing better but because the fact that there isn't a hell
of a lot of opportunity in this country to perform as an artist, the necessity of making
a living is different than that. I mean in this country you're kind of on your
own. If you go over to Europe or other countries
and you turn on the T.V. station at eight o'clock at night, they're going to have like
"Roseanne" and other sit com comedies on or other stuff, but you're also going to be able
to see a jazz concert or a classical concert or a ballet or something like that. It's part of society over there. It's in the schools therefore it creates more
of an audience so they'll come out and hear the concert, and pay to hear you play, it
kind of revolves around like that. Whereas in this country, really compared to
over there, there's really not a lot of stuff going on in the schools. I think I've heard a lot of school programs
have had to drop their music programs for economic reasons, but they haven't dropped
their football programs, they all got new helmets over there. So that is a problem in this country. But hopefully it's getting better. MR: People are trying. SG: Oh I know, I understand that. Yeah. But it's a wonderful profession. I wouldn't discourage anybody against it. But you have to be good. People have asked me, "How can I be a success
as a jazz musician in this business?" And I tell them, "Well there's one sure way
to be a success as a jazz musician. Go out there and be the best guy ever to pick
up your instrument. Work so hard that you're so good that you
cannot be denied." So that's one way to do it, I mean if you
want to approach it that way. But there's no sure shot. But it's a beautiful profession, I've got
no problem with that. MR: What was the first recording that you
did that you felt was significant? SG: I hate to listen to myself play man. MR: You do? SG: Really, for the most part, I listen to
myself play and I say - I cringe - I say listen to that note, or oh I shouldn't have played
that there, or stuff like that. I really do that. So I kind of let the critics decide that stuff. There's a few records I thought I played pretty
well on. I'm trying to think of them, there's so few. I mean I must have made a hundred jazz recordings
so I can't remember but I remember I thought I played pretty well on a couple of the Phil
Woods Quartet and Quintet "Live at the Vanguard" records that we made a long time ago, I even
forget the dates. I think I played okay on a couple of those. I think I played okay on a couple of my records,
particularly the last one that I did I think I probably played a little bit better than
the others. It's really hard to say. People would dispute and say, "Steve you sounded
great on these records" but as I say I tend to be very critical in listening to myself. MR: I said you sounded great on this "Live
at the Showboat." SG: I was okay. That was a nice record. I kind of like that record. Everything was kind of happening alive because
it was a fresh new band and Harry Leahey had just come on the band, a wonderful guitarist
and he kind of infused a little spirit into it. And it was a very nice record. Actually Phil's "Brazilian Suite" that Phil
wrote was wonderful. Phil did some lovely writing on that. That might even be the highlight of that record
is Phil's "Brazilian Suite." I thought it was excellent. MR: What's it like to try to get your own
recording out there? SG: Well I just was very fortunate to kind
of get an in with a guy who just started doing business with this jazz record company, his
name is Mark Kirk, actually he's a former student of Phil's. And so Mark came to me, we were friends, and
asked me to help get some talent together because he was starting to get involved in
this new record company called Jazzmania, and so I actually got a lot of the talent
together, the people to record for this particular record label. And they didn't have a lot of money to pay
to the artists, and there were certain stipulations where you had to play a few of the songs from
their own publishing company. It was owned by a man and a lady, actually
Mr. Irwin Litke, a very fine man, and Ethel Gabriel. And they owned Dunhill Publishing Company,
so you had to play a few tunes from Dunhill Publishing. And Mr. Litke was also a composer and you
had to play one of Mr. Litke's tunes on the record. But you kind of worked with it and so I was
fortunate enough to be able to put out three of my own records on this particular label. And I think it was a very positive thing to
be able to have my own records out. So I would never complain about that. I certainly didn't make a fortune but they
were very nice to me. MR: You did some playing with Toshiko? SG: Yes I did. I used to be one of the regular subs that
played with her band. Oh there's so many people I've played with. I can't really think of them. Of course I played for almost a year with
the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis orchestra, which was wonderful. I wish I'd played better at the time. I mean I was playing pretty good and everything
and this was like 1975 or something like that. But I felt I didn't give the music the justice
that it deserved at the time. But I loved playing with the band. Playing with Thad was so wonderful, and all
the guys, the great musicians that passed through that band. And then the funny thing was I was working
with Phil Woods at the same time because I started working with Phil. And this is kind of unbelievable but for almost
a whole year, none of the gigs clashed with one another. So I'd work with Phil and I'd slide right
in there and work with Thad and Mel, and Thad and Mel didn't work all that much but I'd
work with Phil and slide right into the next gig. And then finally I kind of had to choose and
I went with Phil. MR: Yeah it was a tremendous band, and some
great recordings. SG: With Thad and Mel you mean? Oh yes. Thad was a real teacher. He was a wonderful band leader too. When he was in front of the band you could
almost feel his charisma. He kind of like brought a little more out
of you, and was very supportive and everything. He was a real teacher anyway. MR: He had a very distinctive kind of physical
conducting style, didn't he? SG: Oh yes he did. Yes he did. And he was a big guy, had a lot of muscles,
and he'd put his fist up to you like that with a smile but it meant you better do this
right. Not really, but to me he had a very commanding
presence for me to be in that band. And of course a lot of wonderful musicians
passed through that band too. MR: You've been overseas a number of times,
usually a good experience? SG: Oh always a good experience. I mean generally it's always wonderful to
play for people. At this particular point in my life that's
what I really want to do, I want to play for people and it's wonderful to play to people
who are attentive and come out and hear you perform. So it gets pretty hard on the road, if you're
doing a lot of one nighters, the schedule is pretty mind boggling. I mean you play until eleven or twelve at
night and then you have to get something to eat and then you go home and you get up at
four o'clock in the morning for a two hour drive for three flights to the next concert,
where you have a sound check and do the same thing. It works out that way sometimes, where you
really have a sleep deprivation problem. But you just have to learn how to pace yourself
and prepare yourself mentally. So in that way it's very hard. In another way it's very easy because you're
on the road, the only thing you've got to worry about is to prepare yourself for the
gig the next night. You don't have to cook your own food, you
make a phone call and somebody brings your food to your room. You don't have to worry about the bass, somebody
else schleps with that, the road manager. You get to the gig you take it out of the
carrying case, you play it, you pack it up and don't worry about it. You don't have to worry about pressing your
clothes, you send them out to get ironed. I mean there's a lot of responsibilities that
you have to at home that you don't have to deal with so you look at it that way, but
sleep deprivation can really be a problem, but you've just got to learn how to pace yourself. MR: Yeah, you have to learn how to be on the
road so to speak. SG: Oh yeah listen, I do it every night, are
you kidding? My creditors really appreciate it if I do
it every night. I have no problem with traveling in that sense
because I love to play, I love to perform, still. I hope to until my dying day, I'll always
really want to do that, perform for people, maybe to touch their lives in some way and
make them feel an emotion that they wouldn't normally feel, whether it's love or hate or
something. And that to me is very important. I don't want them to hate me, but I want to
show the emotional side as well as the intellectual side of the music. MR: In your playing these days, do you have
a circle in this particular area that you usually go to as far as traveling? SG: You mean musicians I play with in this
area? MR: Yeah. SG: There's not too many musicians I play
with in this area other than Phil, actually very little in this particular area. There's very little work. But I did work, there was a little gig, a
jazz trio guitar gig that I worked last night with a wonderful guitarist, Bill Washer, who
lives in this area. And other than that, I work here at the Deerhead
Inn. But generally I don't work with people who
live in the area. Bill Charlap and I, the wonderful pianist
with Phil Woods at this particular time, have a duo and work together as a duo whenever
we can and so we work here. And I work here with other people too sometimes. MR: Do you do all your own business? SG: Oh yeah. I don't have a secretary or anything or an
agent, no. No I can barely afford to feed myself. No I just do everything myself, I mean it's
all by reputation anyway. People hear you play and they want you to
play with them and they call you up on the phone basically. So I have a calendar and I mark the dates
off on the calendar with notes for directions and how much money I'm making and if there's
any dress requirements or anything like that and I go play the gig. But there's a lot of give and take in this
business because you know if somebody calls you for a gig that pays X amount of money
and then two weeks later or three weeks later or a week before the gig's supposed to occur
somebody's going to call you sometimes at the last minute and offer you like five times
more than you're making for that night. And it's really hard to disappoint people
but there's a few times when economically I've really had to, and I really hate to do
it. But I have to do it sometimes. But generally you try to keep your commitments
as tidy as possible, really. I hate to cancel out on people but a few times
I've had to. MR: Yeah. It doesn't do your reputation a lot of good. SG: No it doesn't but on the other hand if
somebody offers you a thousand dollars a night to fly to St. Louis to play and you've book
a hundred and fifty dollar job for the night with a local jazz group or something, and
you're a little late on your bills, it's a little hard to say no, you know what I'm saying? And mostly the people that you've had to cancel
out understand. And then it's funny there's a network of bass
players, you make some fast calls and try to cover yourself with as good a bass player
as you can. But that's the way it goes sometimes. MR: What's your opinion of the current state
of jazz and some of the young players out there these days? Do you have an opinion on that? SG: Well there's some wonderful young players
out there. And then there's some players out there who
are pretty good but somebody's done a hell of a marketing job on them. I don't know how else to put it other than
that. I certainly am not going to mention any names,
I'll leave that to the critics, but there are some wonderful young players out there
of all instruments - not only the bass. Seems to be a particularly goodly amount of
jazz piano players in New York. I mean there's so many wonderful players in
New York, jazz piano players. And they don't all have gigs either. Of the young bass players you know it's funny,
I don't have a chance to listen to young bass players that much. I don't actually live in New York City so
I don't make it a point to go in and listen to somebody, I wait for the record to come
out. So I really don't listen to a lot of young
players. There's probably some people out there that
I'm not really aware of. Of the bass players who are living today I
will say unashamedly and unabashedly that my favorite bass player is Michael Moore,
just a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful bass player, that's all I can say about him, the
most lyrical, melodic bass player there is, and also performed and plays great with the
bow, also performs any of the functions a bass player can perform. He's just a wonderful bass player. I could listen to him all day and all night. Young bass players - I think Chris McBride
is a fine bass player. You know it's funny we're both from Philadelphia,
I've never met Christian, but I really admire his playing, he's an excellent player, and
I also admire his business sense. He's obviously a very smart young man, and
really got his business shit - excuse me people - together. I mean he's already figured out a way to market
himself and be very successful in the business, not only being a band leader but being very
successful, and deservedly, he deserves all of it because he's a fine bass player. Another bass player I think - wow there's
so many of them - Scott Cowley is a wonderful bass player, I don't know whether you're familiar
with him. He normally plays with Jim Hall. As a matter of fact I believe I'm subbing
for Scott on this gig, I don't know for sure. You know there's many wonderful young players
out there, I'm just not aware of them. I don't get a chance to listen. I'm really concerned with my bass playing
more than other people's, and quite frankly I listen to other instruments more than I
listen to the bass. I gain my ideas and inspiration I think from
listening to horn players rather than to trying to imitate bass players. I'd like to try to think that I'm trying to
develop my own personal sound which is, after all, what really makes a great artist of any
kind. What makes a good jazz musician or somebody
who's definitely a cut above the others, is if somebody can instantly recognize you when
you play. For example Miles Davis plays one note, you
know it's Miles. Paul Desmond plays one note, Phil Woods plays
one note, you know right away. Ray Brown plays one note, I know it's Ray
right away just by the way of the sound. They have figured out a way to transcend part
of themselves into the music, realizing that the music is just not the notes and the melody
that you play, it's the person that's playing it. So if you can infuse all these things into
your musicianship into the final product then I believe that you have made yourself a real,
definitely fine jazz musician. And not only music, art - you can look at
a wonderful painting, you go that's Gauguin. That's Matisse. And the same thing, they've figured out a
way to get past the colors and the oil and the brushes and put part of themselves into
the painting. MR: What about Milt Hinton? Did you ever have-
SG: Oh sure I know Milt, I hope he's in good health. He's been quite ill lately I know. I really have a lot of respect for Milt because
Milt's done it all. I read Milt's book and I got him to sign it
for me too, and where Milt tells his life story and it's so interesting learning how
Milt and all the other musicians, and particularly the black musicians, learned how to deal with
prejudice and still be a loving human spirit behind all of that and be able to perform
the music. I think Milt's probably the most recorded
bass player in the world. I mean he's made - he must have made thousands
of records over the years with everybody - all those singers and everything, and included
himself marvelously throughout and I've got tremendous respect for Milt. A wonderful person. MR: Is the music these days free of any of
that racial goings on -unpleasantness? SG: Well I think basically speaking I don't
even really think about that stuff. I don't even try to focus on it at all. I imagine there's prejudice everywhere, of
all kinds I would imagine. I'll be quite frank with you - this may be
a terrible thing to say on tape but I find more prejudice coming from some of the younger
black musicians. In a few instances that I've experienced from
all the old guys of being around, who I've played with and we're all friends and everything,
guys I've known for years, I've never experienced any prejudice or I've never felt any prejudice
toward them. But some of the younger guys I find they are
like - I'm not saying anti-white but I've got a kind of funny feeling for them where
they still feel there's prejudice being dealt against them because they're black. I'm not going to mention any names either
on that, I'm adamant about that stuff. I honestly, quite frankly don't see it and
I don't know why. You know it's funny I tried to figure it out
once, that there's mostly white bands and mostly black bands and they seem to play together
with themselves and we kind of have white bands and we play together. I don't know why that is. I could never figure that out myself. I wish it wasn't that way. When I hire somebody, I don't care if it's
a woman, Mexican, lesbian. It doesn't matter to me as long as if they
play great, that's the thing that matters to me and I could care less. And I wish it was the other way. I wish there was more interaction between
the black and the white guys. I don't know why - I think there is some,
but it always seems that the black guys play together and the white guys play together. I don't know why that is. I wish it wasn't that way. I don't see a lot of prejudice these days,
in the music business anyway. I think musicians and artists are kind of
special people because they feel a kind of special kinship for each other in this business
and there's almost always love and hugs and appreciate the friendship of our fellow musicians. And I generally try to give that feeling out
to all the people that I play with and I hope other people feel the same way towards me. And I don't see a lot of racial prejudice
this day. I see a lot of prejudice against musicians
in general economically, but I don't see a lot of racial prejudice in the business, personally. MR: This is a hard question, but can you recall
any of the worst musical situations you've ever been in, or would you rather not? SG: You mean in terms of playing with bad
people or - MR: Playing under terrible conditions. SG: Well musicians always play under terrible
conditions in a way, even when you're on the road playing concerts. You go to a concert hall and you get this
piano that's not tuned properly and this lousy sound system that they feel they must put
you through because they have a thousand people in the audience. And then you're on the road and they're late
to pick you up for the plane and you've got to scuffle to make the next plane and make
the next concert. That's part of it. I mean I've been in some pretty bad positions
musically but it generally hasn't been on a concert tour. I remember one funny thing that happened,
I remember when I was young and doing a session and we used to go out and play jam sessions
in those days. And so a piano player showed up we'd never
played with before. And somebody said to him, "Listen, let's play
a blues, okay?" And the guy says, "Fine." And he says, "Let's do it in A flat." And the guy says, "No I can't do it, I don't
have it written out in that key." This is the blues you know. You can imagine what kind of night I was in
for that night. I really can't focus on that. There's been so many good things I've been
fortunate to be involved with. The bad things I just can't think about right
now. MR: I told you it was a hard question. SG: It is a very hard question. I mean I've been in some rotten musical situations
but they weren't jazz. So no need to talk about that. MR: Have you played rock & roll? SG: Sure. I own a Fender bass, sure. I own one. It's sitting in the closet. You'll get a kick out of this. I used to in the summertime symbolically hang
my Fender bass in my garage in back with my chainsaw and my electric trimmer and everything
like that, because it was a tool. I used to do that symbolically. I could only do it in the summer because in
the wintertime it would be too cold. MR: That's good. Your neighbor could come over-
SG: Yeah. Wanna borrow my tool, go ahead. But I play pretty good Fender bass. I'm not up on all the new slapping and pop
thumb techniques and everything like that but my idea of good rock & roll is like Aretha
Franklin and Motown and all that stuff. But I do own one and can play it reasonably
well when called upon to. I've done some recording on the Fender bass
but not a lot. But as I say I am certainly no Jaco Pastorious,
not even close. You know it's funny, I used to talk to people
about it before some of the wonderful bass players came along, like Jaco Pastorious and
other people who followed him, who play the bass with such technical facility that it's
really quite incredible. And I always used to say I can't figure out
why bass players don't play the Fender bass like that because it's really only a guitar
missing two strings and an octave lower. And finally somebody did come and start to
play like that. And now these guys are really phenomenal. There's so many of them I can't even say. But Jaco I think was a big influence on so
many people and he was a wonderful, wonderful player. Now guys play six string and five string basses
and it's essentially like a guitar only an octave lower. MR: Well Jaco had that thing that you were
describing - he had a sound that was identifiable. SG: Oh absolutely. MR: It seems to me to be a little harder to
do on the bass. SG: Yes. On the electric bass you mean? MR: Yeah. Or well personally I would think it'd be a
little harder to do just on the bass, maybe because -
SG: I tend to disagree with you. Because I think the bass has so many beautiful
color possibilities on the instrument, the way you can strum the instrument or the way
you can slide into notes or play two or three notes at a time and whether you can bend the
notes. I think you have a very effective way of showing
your personality on the instrument. I think it's like harder for a piano player
to get their own personal sound, because you're dealing with an instrument that when you strike
the note it's hard to do anything other than strike the note the way it is. But that's not true. I mean you can strike the note a little lighter
or a certain way and you can somehow manage to get your own sound out of it. You know voice the chord a certain way, but
you still have to deal with a set instrument as opposed to the bass where you can kind
of bend and strum and do other things. So I kind of disagree with you on that. I think the bass is easy for self expression. Particularly when you're playing at a low
volume and you're not using the amplifier to goose it up and get funny sounds as some
guys do. Why they do it I don't know but they do it. I just play, when I play I used an amplifier
of course with a pick-up, but I have no gadgets whatever. I have no graphic equalizer or funny things. I just go for the simplest amp, the simplest
pick-up and nothing funny at all, and just try to get my sound out of the instrument
itself. Try to keep the volume as low as I possibly
can depending on the drummer or whatever, and try to work strictly from the bass. MR: Sounds like good advice. SG: Well you know I do teach some and I've
had people who come with me wanting to learn how to play Fender bass. And I explain to them I technically I can't
teach you some of the new techniques or anything like that. But what I advise them to do, I advise them
to go into a closet or a bathroom with the Fender bass with no amplifier. And actually try to get a sound out of it
without an amplifier by using the strength of your hand and the strings and try to get
a sound out of it, which you can do in a bathroom where it's very quiet, because you don't have
any - it's not hollow, it doesn't resonate, so you have to get it out of the fingerboard
and the strings. But I say if you can develop your own sound
and a good sound playing without an amplifier with a Fender bass all by yourself in an elevator
or closet or something like that, then you're going to come and you're going to plug it
into the amplifier and your hands are going to be strengthened and you're going to be
able to get more of a sound out of the instrument itself without relying on the electronics
of the instrument to get a sound for you. Now I'm not knocking all the things - Jaco
used to use an amplifier and he developed his own sound, of course he developed his
own sound with it, but I have the feeling that Jaco spent some hours sitting in a closet
playing his electric bass all alone too. I don't really know, because I only met Jaco
once and I don't really know the gentleman, never knew him personally. But that's what I advise anyway to Fender
players. MR: Sounds like good advice again. Of course that - he took the frets off too,
didn't he? SG: Yes, yes, he used a fretless. I use a - I've got a great old Fender Precision
bass, a fretted bass, I've been using it for years and I will continue to use it. I don't think there's any need for me at this
particular point to upgrade my equipment on the bass. MR: How about your acoustic? Did you have to shell out a lot of money to
get it- SG: I'll tell you quite frankly I used to
have a very fine, I've had a couple of fine basses. The last one I had was a wonderful, wonderful
actual full size bass, a James Brown from 1864. And you've seen regular basses, you know they
look like - this was a full - a regular bass you look at are like 2/3 or 3/4 size. That's what everybody plays. This was an actual full sized bass and it
was huge. And it was a wonderful instrument and I made
a lot of recordings with it, but I just couldn't take it on the road anymore. Every time I'd take it on the road and came
back I'd have to spend five or six hundred dollars to repairman, because it would be
sent out in the plastic case and they'd drop it and it would get all cracks and everything
like that. And I really couldn't afford it and I needed
the money so I sold it. And now the only basses I have, I have two
plywood basses. And the one plywood bass, I hate to tell anybody
listening, I bought it for $400 locally here in Stroudsburg from a kid. It was sitting in the closet, and it's actually
a Jantzen plywood bass. And it's a very fine instrument, made very
well. I put a top of the line fingerboard on it,
a top of the line bridge, had it set up to resonate properly, and it sounds great. There's nothing wrong with a plywood bass. And I've been using it on recordings for years,
just with a mic on the F hold and the sound is wonderful. So I have that and I have another plywood
bass. I was actually given, on permanent loan by
a friend of mine from SUNY of Binghamton, Slam Stewart was associated with that university
- and I was given one of Slam Stewart's plywood basses on permanent loan from this person. It needs some work and I need to fix it up
but that's the only two basses - I own two plywood basses and I'm very happy about it. It's so great to put a bass in the plastic
coffin and it's a very sturdy instrument, the plywood basses, and not worry about it
coming home in pieces. I haven't had to spent money on an actual
bass repair for cracks or seams opening up in years. And it's a wonderful bass. There's a certain mythology about fine basses. Don't misunderstand me, fine basses are wonderful. And I would probably have one if I had the
money right now I'd want to lay out for a fine bass. They cost like five, ten, fifteen, twenty,
forty thousand dollars for a fine bass. And the fact of the matter is, is that once
you amplify a bass you get a lot of the sound from the amplifier, and frankly it doesn't
make a hell of a lot of difference. And also - what was I going to say - like
I said the sound of the bass comes from your hands on the fingerboard. Hank Jones is going to go to an upright piano
and he's going to find a way to sound like Hank Jones on his piano. So I know no matter what bass I play I'm going
to try to find a way to sound like Steve Gilmore on bass. There's a certain mythology of great basses. Great basses are wonderful and everything
but also great basses tend to have like more overtones in them and woof tones, more resonant. And that can create problems for amplification
too. Plywood basses, if they're set up properly
tend to be more evenly resonated throughout. MR: Now you said you have a couple of children. SG: Yes I have two children. MR: How did you react to their choices in
music as they grew up? SG: Well my one son, he's actually my stepson
but I consider him my son because he's been with me from a very early age. We tried to get him involved in music and
he didn't have a lot of musical talent. So he tried to play and everything and we
got him involved, it was very good for him artistically to see what a musician goes through
and everything like that to learn how to play. But he ended up making a smart move and he's
got a plumbing business all his own and he's doing very well. So good move, Cary, smart move. My other son, Thad, he is actually very talented
musically. We made him learn how to play piano and we
got him involved and stuff like that. And he's very talented musically. But I think both of the kids saw me struggling
all through the years and everything, and I think they looked at it and said I don't
want any of this. So my son now manages a hardware store and
is into real estate and is doing very well for himself. So their choices in music - I think they both
enjoy jazz but I think they both also enjoy good country music and they enjoy different
kinds of popular music. So their taste in music I don't think was
terrifically influenced by me quite frankly. MR: If you could put together a dream band
of your own, make a record and go on tour, give me a couple of piano players you would
call. SG: Number one is the guy I play with Phil
Woods, Bill Charlap. He's not really like famous like a lot of
other piano players although I expect he will be some day, but he's just a wonderful, wonderful
pianist. I don't know how to describe it, he's brought
up - his father was Moose Charlap, who wrote some Broadway shows, most notably "Peter Pan"
I believe. And he's been involved in American Songwriters
ever since he was a young child and that's his background. And although he can play any style he's just
got a lovely ear for music. He knows how to voice a chord and he's got
such a lovely touch and sensitivity and he's just a great piano player. He's the guy I would call first for anything. He's a wonderful piano player. Besides that he's a very good friend of mine. And that's important. When you've got a band you know it's funny,
if I knew somebody who played - I can't conceive of anybody who played better than Bill Charlap
- that I really didn't like that much personally, I wouldn't want to have him in my band. I'd rather have somebody - that's part of
music, you're playing with your friends, you're making music, you feel love and affection
for your friends and the people around you and you're trying to create a beautiful group
sound, and that's very important, to like the people that you're working with, if at
all possible. Sometimes it's not always possible. I've worked with great musicians who I didn't
particularly care for and I still respected them and loved playing with them. It's a funny thing, just because you're a
great jazz musician doesn't necessarily mean you're like a nice person. I hate to say that. And I'm not going to mention any names naturally,
but the two don't necessarily go together. I've known some wonderful, wonderful musicians
who I loved playing with who were pricks, on and off the bandstand. So getting back to a dream band, I would call,
as a piano player I would call Bill Charlap would be my first call. Also my second recording I made with a wonderful
jazz pianist, Ted Rosenthal, who won the Monk competition five or six years ago. And he was on my second record and I've had
occasion to play with Ted a few other times and he's also a wonderful, wonderful piano
player. Another guy who lives close to here is Bill
Mays who lives up in Milford, about an hour north of here, and I play with Bill sometimes
here at the Deerhead. He's another wonderful piano player. Like I say there's a glut of wonderful piano
players. MR: Well I've really enjoyed talking to you. You said you're going to Japan soon? SG: With Jim Hall, yes. MR: Any more plans after that? SG: Sure. Would anybody like to call me for gigs? I've got plenty of open time. No there's very little work with Phil. I'm working a job, we're playing the Jacksonville
Jazz Festival with Phil this weekend, and the night before that I'm playing with Mark
Murphy, a one-nighter. And then there's nothing else with Phil until
January, and then we're going to South America for three days with Phil, Uruguay, I believe
it is of all places, doing a one-nighter in Uruguay. Two nights in Rio and then back home again. So my schedule is just like incredibly varied. I work doing some jazz jobs, I work with singers,
I play with Tony Bennett sometimes, Tony's Bennett's bass player is a former student
of mine, Paul Longosh, and a very good friend of mine. And whenever he takes off, which is not often,
I get the call to play with Tony Bennett. So I'm like a sub on a lot of bands. I'm subbing with Jim Hall, subbing with Tony
Bennett, subbing with a lot of other people. I play in Atlantic City sometimes, in a French
restaurant down there with a couple of lovely ladies, one plays piano and one sings very
well. I work with singers, I play a lot with Susannah
McCorkle, a very fine singer. People I just can't think of now. I've played with Carol Sloane sometimes, a
fine singer. I just have a very, very varied musical experience. And as I say I do the usual amount of bar
mitzvahs, weddings, play for shows, play for whatever. MR: Well that's the life. SG: That's the life, yeah. And I'm glad I have it. I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing. I wish I was doing more of it, but I'm very
happy to be doing what I'm doing. I would never discourage anybody from a life
of music. It's beautiful. You just have to keep your head together and
kind of think - I made a lot of mistakes and I didn't think for the future when I was younger
and I should have. Make sure you have enough sense to put away
that fifty or hundred bucks a week and save for a rainy day. And don't think that the work is always going
to be there because it's always not going to be you have to save. And anybody listening in or watching this
particular event, you always have to think about that, think about the future and don't
let it ever discourage you from playing music because it's a wonderful life. MR: All right. Well said. Thanks a lot. SG: Okay, thank you, Monk, what time is it? I did talk, didn't I? Big mouth.
